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| 00:37:18 | * | amiconn wonders about the weird binsize effect of r29275 |
| 00:39:17 | JdGordon1 | alignment? |
| 00:42:49 | JdGordon1 | S_a_i_n_t: ok, if we had a proper "current screen" system... what would you expect the current screen to be when you enter the (example) WPS context menu? |
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| 00:59:13 | jhMikeS | amiconn: I think because the targets that went up didn't have the static struct before |
| 01:00 |
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| 01:07:33 | JdGordon1 | S_a_i_n_t: OY! |
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| 01:17:03 | JdGordon1 | RaaaAA really should be have an AA scraping activity for when it isnt found locally |
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| 01:20:09 | CIA-70 | New commit by sideral (r29280): autoresume: Match full directory path names only in autoresumable() ... |
| 01:25:22 | CIA-70 | r29280 build result: All green |
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| 01:30:27 | jhMikeS | is thumb code being used on some targets? |
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| 01:39:57 | | Quit JdGordon| (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 01:42:53 | jhMikeS | aha, didn't know it was actually being used, explains weird deltas (r29275 notwithstanding) compared to other targets |
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| 01:56:12 | kugel | gevaerts: there's a problem :( |
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| 01:57:46 | kugel | gevaerts: somwwhy your commit breaks eclipse |
| 01:57:59 | kugel | I'm currently fighting some random problems |
| 01:58:09 | gevaerts | Eclipse uses make now? |
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| 01:58:33 | | Quit liar (Quit: Leaving) |
| 01:58:49 | kugel | no but the mapke apk classes seems to be a problem for it |
| 01:59:27 | | Quit sideral (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 01:59:31 | gevaerts | in what way? |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:23 | kugel | “Conversion to Dalvik format failed with error 1” |
| 02:00:32 | kugel | and my code doesn't work in an unexpected way |
| 02:01:05 | kugel | I listen to music, but the java layer isn't aware that rockbox is running |
| 02:01:52 | jhMikeS | buffering_handle_finished_callback is dangerous because it sends an event on the buffering thread which can result in calls that could conceivably demand buffering (deadlock if data isn't ready) |
| 02:02:42 | * | gevaerts is confused |
| 02:02:52 | gevaerts | Is that eclipse breaking? |
| 02:04:01 | kugel | ah the latter was unsurprisingly a problem in my code |
| 02:04:59 | kugel | ah uh, I managed to recover the lcd speed in gingerbread by using the new native apis |
| 02:05:29 | kugel | gevaerts: eclipse reports the first error as soon as I hit make apk |
| 02:05:56 | gevaerts | Well, I don't have eclipse here, so I can't try |
| 02:06:27 | kugel | hm, the lcd speed is back to normal, but the code is incompatible with <= froyo :( |
| 02:09:00 | * | jhMikeS isn't sure now...so long as the handle really stays finished as isn't asked to go anywhere |
| 02:09:28 | JdGordon1 | jhMikeS: don't you want to just replace the whole system with buflib? :D |
| 02:09:57 | jhMikeS | what's buflib? :) |
| 02:10:22 | * | JdGordon1 might be confusing people and parts |
| 02:10:42 | jhMikeS | ?? lulz ?? |
| 02:10:53 | JdGordon1 | sure, why not |
| 02:11:58 | * | jhMikeS gets confused for his parts (but buflib makes it easy) |
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| 02:15:21 | jhMikeS | at least it looks compatible with concurrent access |
| 02:22:23 | * | jhMikeS wonders if any codecs yield while still using the same direct pointer |
| 02:23:18 | JdGordon1 | anyone interested in testing FS #11925 for me? i have no toolchains vailble now so dont even know if it builds :/ |
| 02:26:04 | jhMikeS | in what way? |
| 02:31:09 | kugel | hm, the new code has some advantages |
| 02:31:46 | jhMikeS | SCREEN_UNKNOWN undeclared :\\ |
| 02:31:57 | JdGordon1 | prob a typo |
| 02:32:53 | jhMikeS | misc.c "SCREEN_UNKNOWN" (copied) |
| 02:33:54 | jhMikeS | supposed to be in a header somewhere? |
| 02:34:05 | JdGordon1 | misc.h at the bottom |
| 02:34:37 | JdGordon1 | SCREEN_* is a really bad name though, need to change that |
| 02:35:03 | jhMikeS | misc.h "SCREEN_UNKNONW" :) |
| 02:35:57 | JdGordon1 | s/SCREEN_/ACTIVITY_/ maybe? |
| 02:37:05 | jhMikeS | WWMD? |
| 02:39:30 | jhMikeS | that was a question, not a suggestion |
| 02:39:48 | JdGordon1 | what would ? do? |
| 02:40:02 | jhMikeS | Microsoft (instead of Jesus) |
| 02:40:46 | jhMikeS | well, got it to compile...now, what should I see (if anything)? |
| 02:41:12 | JdGordon1 | just really if it crashes when you go in and out of the browsers and quickscreen |
| 02:45:11 | jhMikeS | seems ok so far |
| 02:46:54 | | Quit mystica555_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 02:48:38 | jhMikeS | I've been in and out of the various screens dozens of times by now |
| 02:49:30 | JdGordon1 | ok thanks |
| 02:49:56 | JdGordon1 | if you're keen you can test the actual change with a sbs? |
| 02:50:23 | jhMikeS | sure |
| 02:50:47 | jhMikeS | you have suitable one? |
| 02:51:31 | JdGordon1 | what target you on? |
| 02:52:12 | jhMikeS | beast |
| 02:54:04 | JdGordon1 | http://pastebin.com/vTRkSWBi |
| 02:54:22 | JdGordon1 | i tihnk that will work |
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| 02:57:37 | jhMikeS | whawt do you mean "<- should change"? |
| 02:58:01 | JdGordon1 | save that to a .sbs and load it :) |
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| 02:58:21 | JdGordon1 | it should show a number and "<- should change" on the top line |
| 02:58:25 | JdGordon1 | the number should change |
| 02:58:34 | jhMikeS | ah |
| 02:58:54 | JdGordon1 | only for the browsers and quickscreen though |
| 03:00 |
| 03:03:21 | jhMikeS | either i'm doing something wrong or I see no change |
| 03:04:22 | jhMikeS | I should just put that in an .sbs file and load that? |
| 03:04:30 | JdGordon1 | yes |
| 03:05:31 | jhMikeS | I don't see anything different |
| 03:06:07 | JdGordon1 | ok, thanks anyway |
| 03:07:37 | JdGordon1 | ah there is a typo |
| 03:07:43 | jhMikeS | oh |
| 03:07:52 | JdGordon1 | the 3rd line has a . instead of a , |
| 03:08:01 | JdGordon1 | after the 8 |
| 03:09:46 | jhMikeS | main menu: 0, browser: 2, quick screen: 8 |
| 03:10:36 | JdGordon1 | gigeddy gigeddy |
| 03:11:11 | jhMikeS | major lag in the update though (1s or so) |
| 03:11:58 | JdGordon1 | yeah, that's no surprise |
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| 06:26:32 | JdGordon1 | S_a_i_n_t: so, do you reckon I can leave it up to you to add all the screens to make FS #11925 work (with a bit of guidance)? |
| 06:26:52 | JdGordon1 | it involves adding 2 calls per screen (one on entry, one on exit) |
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| 08:14:37 | PurlingNayuki | Hi. |
| 08:14:57 | PurlingNayuki | I have some problems when compiling Rockbox for Android. |
| 08:18:54 | S_a_i_n_t | Well, no one can help you unless you say what the problem(s) is/are. |
| 08:19:07 | PurlingNayuki | OK. |
| 08:19:12 | PurlingNayuki | I'm typing. |
| 08:19:31 | PurlingNayuki | You know, my English is poor |
| 08:20:11 | PurlingNayuki | I tried to compile 1024x600, but it tell me that there isn't a file called rockboxlogo.h. |
| 08:20:42 | PurlingNayuki | But when I tried to compile the default definition (320x480) it was OK |
| 08:20:58 | PurlingNayuki | I don't really know why. |
| 08:22:03 | S_a_i_n_t | perhaps there is some hardcoded artificial limit, but that would only be speculation on my part, I would have expected it to work also. |
| 08:22:51 | PurlingNayuki | So now I'm trying to compile 400x845. |
| 08:24:05 | Ctcp | Ignored 5 channel CTCP requests in 2 hours and 48 minutes at the last flood |
| 08:24:05 | * | PurlingNayuki is willing to see the compiling goes correctly. |
| 08:25:50 | PurlingNayuki | I think I should change the file name of the Rockbox's boot image. |
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| 08:39:01 | PurlingNayuki | OK. |
| 08:39:25 | PurlingNayuki | It's true that Rockbox has some limit for higher definition. |
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| 10:56:00 | francesco_ | my clip+ reboot to OF every time it's plugged in to USB. is there a way to avoid that? i've being pointed to FS #11664. is there the right bug? |
| 10:59:50 | | Join pondlife [0] (~Steve@rockbox/developer/pondlife) |
| 11:00 |
| 11:03:36 | pondlife | Hi all. I'm trying to debug a reproducible-ish queue overflow in the database generation, using the sim. |
| 11:03:41 | | Join sideral [0] (~sideral@213.165.85.248) |
| 11:03:42 | pondlife | Currently it results in a KERNEL_ASSERT which calls exit(). Is there an assertion available that merely breaks execution in gdb? |
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| 11:05:51 | n1s | pondlife: can't you set a breakpoint on it in gdb? |
| 11:06:25 | pondlife | Of course! Thanks |
| 11:06:44 | n1s | francesco_: rockbox usb suport isn't working stably on that target yet and that patch is a workaround that doesn't seem to work 100% either |
| 11:06:55 | Zagor | oh, we have native usb for ams. sorry for misleading you yesterday, francesco_! |
| 11:07:07 | n1s | Zagor: it's diabled though |
| 11:07:31 | Zagor | is it? then I was right and rebooting is the expected behaviour? |
| 11:07:36 | n1s | yes |
| 11:07:51 | sideral | Pondlife: Could the problem you're debugging have something to do with FS #11821? |
| 11:08:04 | Zagor | n1s: ok. thanks. |
| 11:08:12 | n1s | because it could cause these weird crashes that made a hard reset not work so people had to wait for the batteries to drain |
| 11:09:00 | pondlife | sideral: Maybe, I haven't done much looking into it yet |
| 11:09:04 | sideral | francesco_: Yes, that's the right tracker item. It's a bit difficult to track the current status, though, as there's no complete summary in that item. |
| 11:09:16 | pondlife | sideral: Will apply that patch and repeat |
| 11:10:13 | sideral | francesco_: There are patches in there for enabling USB on the Clip+ and for an USB-bus-reset-related workaround. There are also hints what various people have done to make it work |
| 11:11:29 | sideral | francesco_: For me, the USB support is completely stable without the bus-reset workaround, but only if I back out a recent change to the SD driver (r29169) |
| 11:11:39 | sideral | (using a ClipV2) |
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| 11:12:49 | sideral | pondlife: There may be a synchronization problem in the code that patch disables. It would be great if you could find out what it is. Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the crash. |
| 11:13:19 | | Quit casainho (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 11:13:24 | sideral | If you have a data set that reproduces it reliably with a simulator, I could help debugging it. |
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| 11:21:55 | pondlife | sideral: Data set is about 80MB of MP3s... :/ |
| 11:22:24 | pondlife | But thanks, will report on FS if this is also my case |
| 11:24:46 | sideral | pondlife: perhaps you can truncate all those files to a few hundred bytes and still reproduce the crash? ID3v2 info typically is at the beginning of the file IIRC |
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| 11:50:46 | francesco_ | sideral: thanks. can you confirm that clip v2 is 8Gb only? |
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| 12:28:24 | CIA-70 | New commit by gevaerts (r29281): Make sure there is a logo for LCD_WIDTH>480 && LCDWIDTH<600 (useful for 600x1024 LCDs) |
| 12:31:03 | n1s | gevaerts: typo in the message? |
| 12:31:14 | gevaerts | ah, probably |
| 12:31:35 | gevaerts | The code itself is fine I hope :) |
| 12:31:43 | n1s | ah s/00/0/ |
| 12:31:50 | n1s | ah s/00/40/ |
| 12:32:41 | n1s | didn't make much sense since 600 !< 600 |
| 12:33:13 | CIA-70 | r29281 build result: 1250 errors, 488 warnings (gevaerts committed) |
| 12:33:35 | n1s | wow |
| 12:34:37 | n1s | weird error |
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| 12:36:47 | gevaerts | Doesn't happen here |
| 12:36:53 | * | gevaerts claims a random client problem |
| 12:38:08 | n1s | the build log is supicioulsy short |
| 12:38:22 | pondlife | sideral: For the logs - I put a backtrace (for vanilla SVN) up at http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11927 - looks like a sim fault, not a database fault to me.. |
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| 12:48:27 | PurlingNayuki | I found that there is a update for 600x1024 Rockbox for Android. |
| 12:48:30 | PurlingNayuki | Thanks. |
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| 13:00:15 | sideral | pondlife: Good to know, thanks |
| 13:01:06 | pondlife | Am now running the test with your patch - but it takes 30 mins to crash (init big database over a slow network link) |
| 13:02:51 | sideral | francesco_: I don't know for sure in which sizes the ClipV2 is sold. I guess that it comes in all three sizes (2, 4 or 8 GB). |
| 13:03:28 | sideral | Mine is an 8 GB model |
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| 13:43:41 | pondlife | sideral: Same crash happens with the patch from FS #11821 |
| 13:44:36 | sideral | pondlife: Thanks for the update! Sorry for you, good for me :) It means that the code this patch removes hasn't triggered your crash |
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| 14:27:28 | pokey | hello. |
| 14:28:01 | pokey | anybody active this time of day? |
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| 16:19:46 | francesco | does anyone have the SKU for a Clip+ v2 ? |
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| 16:39:12 | sideral | francesco: Is there a Clip+ v2? I only know of these three Clip revisions: Clip v1, Clip v2, Clip+ |
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| 16:43:59 | 5EXAB626W | sideral: the clip+ v2 is the one with an OF v.2 |
| 16:44:13 | 5EXAB626W | it also has a different case/hardware |
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| 16:44:58 | gevaerts | The clip v2 case is the same as the clip v1 case |
| 16:45:46 | sideral | I haven't yet heard of a Clip+ with a 2.x OF |
| 16:45:52 | francesco_ | gevaerts: apparently not |
| 16:45:54 | francesco_ | http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35597 |
| 16:46:23 | Zagor | that's the non-plus clip |
| 16:46:27 | sideral | This is a Clip v2, not Clip+ |
| 16:47:02 | francesco_ | ah ok |
| 16:47:07 | gevaerts | francesco_: ok, "slightly different logo"... |
| 16:47:22 | gevaerts | That doesn't make it a different case to me :) |
| 16:47:53 | francesco_ | gevaerts: the clip is different :) |
| 16:48:02 | francesco_ | ..the actual clip |
| 16:48:04 | gevaerts | francesco_: in what way? |
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| 16:49:40 | francesco_ | and the case too |
| 16:49:41 | francesco_ | http://www.sandisk.co.uk/products/sansa-music-and-video-players/sandisk-sansa-clipplus-mp3-player |
| 16:49:46 | francesco_ | that's clip+ |
| 16:50:01 | francesco_ | the slide in front of it change quite a bit |
| 16:50:35 | gevaerts | Yes, I know the clip+ is different |
| 16:50:40 | francesco_ | anyway, sideral: you said that on your clip v2 (not the +) you dont' have the usb OF issue, right? |
| 16:51:30 | francesco_ | gevaerts: ah ok.. no, clip and clip v2 are identical.. you're gith |
| 16:51:34 | francesco_ | you're right |
| 16:54:08 | sideral | francesco_: More or less −− there were some qualifications to my statements |
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| 16:58:44 | CIA-70 | New commit by Buschel (r29282): Submit FS #11926, calibrate charge curve for e200v1. Thanks to Martin Ritter. |
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| 17:03:26 | CIA-70 | r29282 build result: All green |
| 17:03:27 | francesco_ | sideral: got it. thanks |
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| 17:15:14 | CIA-70 | New commit by Buschel (r29283): Use menu layout for sleep timer that is consistent to other timers. Closes FS #11923. |
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| 17:19:35 | CIA-70 | r29283 build result: All green |
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| 17:42:58 | sideral | I have a draft for the new manual section describing autoresume ready. Is there any proofreading process I need to go through before it can be checked in? |
| 17:43:02 | sideral | If not, is anyone interested / willing to have a look at it? |
| 17:45:55 | pamaury | Any GNU linker script expert ? I would like to do something a bit weird. I want to divide my code into two parts: one part at VA 0x8c0b0000 and the other one at VA 0x300b0000. The point is that these two alias (after memory setup) so what I really want is to FIRSt write the code at 0x8c0b0000 until 0x8c000byyyy and THEN write the rest of the code at 0x300byyyy. Is this possible ? |
| 17:52:06 | linuxstb | sideral: I don't think anyone would be upset if you just committed it. But if you want comments from others, then post a link here, or (probably better) put it on flyspray. |
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| 18:00:32 | sideral | linuxstb: OK, thanks. FS is probably a bit too heavy-weight for this, so I'll go ahead and commit and then ask for volunteer reviewers when the manual appears on the website :) |
| 18:02:29 | sideral | pamaury: that should be possible with the AT directive and a sum or difference involving ADDR(<currentsymbol>) as AT's argument |
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| 18:13:19 | francesco_ | if i place a .m3u file in the microsd card of a clip+, what should be the base path to the songs also stored in the microsd? |
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| 18:15:08 | pamaury | sideral: yeah I finally figured out this using thr manual, but thanks for your answer :) |
| 18:17:43 | CIA-70 | New commit by sideral (r29284): Describe autoresume in the manual. |
| 18:18:00 | kugel | \o/ |
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| 18:18:58 | evilnick_B | francesco_: If the .m3u is in the root of the sd card you should be able to use a relative path to the music files |
| 18:19:32 | evilnick_B | e.g. music/artist/album/track (if that's the directory structure that you've got) |
| 18:21:56 | CIA-70 | r29284 build result: All green |
| 18:22:34 | * | kugel has re-written his yesterdays lcd speed up to be backwards compatible |
| 18:25:06 | francesco_ | evilnick_B: it used to be an absolute path, but i'll try yourt suggestion as absolute don't work anymore (it seems) |
| 18:29:41 | francesco_ | evilnick_B: nope, not working with the relative either |
| 18:30:17 | evilnick_B | Can you give some examples of both the entry in the .m3u and also where the file is on the sd card? |
| 18:30:27 | evilnick_B | Well, one example should do |
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| 18:39:33 | francesco_ | evilnick_B: both .m3u and .mp3 are on sd; mp3 are in MUSIC/hiphop/. m3u is in root folder of sd. |
| 18:39:47 | francesco_ | the path i use in .m3u is MUSIC/hiphop/mp3_file |
| 18:41:06 | evilnick_B | Can you try making a playlist by playing an item in the /MUSIC/hiphop folder, then save that playlist and open it in a text editor - that should let you see what RB is expecting to see |
| 18:41:46 | evilnick_B | IIRC there might need to be a <sd_card> (but likely to be different, as I can't recall exactly what that should be) at the left of that path |
| 18:42:05 | francesco_ | evilnick_B: ok i'll try |
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| 19:03:18 | francesco_ | evilnick_B: ok , so path must be /<microSD1>/folder/file.MP3 |
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| 19:13:08 | pixelma | sideral: did you testbuild some manuals? Unfortunately we only have daily manuals and it's sometimes not easy to spot if they are broken (that's also not part of the build system). I could imagine that the \ButtonLeft and \ButtonRight doesn't always work, I believe there was one pad that doesn't define those (I believe it was the H10) and seeing as it has to do with skipping I guess the \ActionWpsSomething is better suited anyway and solves this |
| 19:13:08 | pixelma | issue. Other than that I'm not too sure I like the checkin as the feature is still questioned, on the other hand... well I'm really undecided |
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| 19:18:17 | sideral | pixelma: Yes, I did testbuild. I had strange problem because apparently my LaTeX tool chain is not complete, but I did get OK-looking PDF and HTML version. |
| 19:18:17 | sideral | I thought I'd seen \ButtonLeft and \ButtonRight used in generic parts of the manual, but now that I'm looking for it, I can't find it any longer :) |
| 19:19:13 | sideral | So you're possibly right |
| 19:19:31 | pixelma | yes, ButtonLeft and ButtonRight do almost work everywhere but I thought there was one or two exceptionsm using the Actions is still better suitable I think |
| 19:19:50 | pixelma | everywhere = with the different keypads |
| 19:20:23 | pixelma | did you testbuild one or different manuals? |
| 19:22:45 | | Quit Mikeb0ok (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 19:22:56 | sideral | two different ones |
| 19:23:14 | sideral | one with hwcodec, one with swcodec |
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| 19:26:29 | sideral | pixelma: "make manual-pdf" yields a nice pdf manual, but the build ends with "make[2]: *** [rockbox-build.pdf] Error 1" |
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| 19:27:10 | pixelma | if you want the pdf "make manual" is enough |
| 19:27:55 | pixelma | not sure if that's the reason for your error though, never tried that command |
| 19:28:34 | sideral | "make manual" yields the same error |
| 19:29:43 | sideral | hmm, in another build dir it works... |
| 19:30:07 | pixelma | then there may be something else broken, the manual currently builds in non-stop mode which means it'll go all the way through the end even on an error - and the build output is very noisy so the error is not easy to spot |
| 19:30:22 | gevaerts | sideral: that's with current svn? |
| 19:30:27 | * | pixelma dislikes non-stop mode |
| 19:30:30 | gevaerts | Which target did you try? |
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| 19:30:40 | pixelma | and which... what gevaerts said |
| 19:30:41 | sideral | yep. but let me try make clean first before raising a flag.. |
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| 19:31:31 | sideral | ah, that helped :) |
| 19:32:05 | sideral | what's a target without a Left button? Any touch-wheel or touch-screen target? |
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| 19:33:38 | pixelma | I don't know off the top of my head (and maybe I'm misremembering), you would need to check the keymap-* files in the platform folder - but really \ActionWpsPrev/Next is cleaner and safer anyway |
| 19:34:06 | AlexP | Yeah, just use the actions - they should exist as in the code, and if they don't they should be added |
| 19:34:36 | AlexP | That way also if buttons change (unlikely to here), it is much easier to just change a few platform files than search all through all the files |
| 19:35:20 | sideral | Just wanted to check whether "\ActionWpsPrev{} button" expands to something silly on such a target, such as "swoosh to the left while holding upside down button" :) |
| 19:37:06 | pixelma | you won't need the button |
| 19:37:19 | pixelma | just "\ActionWpsPrev" |
| 19:37:41 | AlexP | Cheers for doing the manual though |
| 19:37:48 | AlexP | Not everyone does :) |
| 19:38:06 | sideral | pixelma: but "press \ActionWpsPrev{}" also sound awkward as "press swoosh to the left while holding upside down" :) |
| 19:39:08 | sideral | AlexP: I figured it's necessary, given that the feature needs some explanation, but thanks for the kudos :) |
| 19:39:25 | AlexP | It is necessary, but that doesn't always mean people do it :) |
| 19:39:54 | AlexP | And then someone else (such as pixelma or I) ends up doing it, which takes much longer as I have to work out how the feature works first :) |
| 19:41:12 | pixelma | to me it's also hard to write good-sounding English explanations, so I mostly do code "cleanup"/filling out missing info |
| 19:42:02 | sideral | AlexP: I should have let you do it, so that you get a chance to fall in love with my feature :) |
| 19:42:15 | AlexP | hehe :) |
| 19:42:35 | pixelma | it might have had the opposite effect |
| 19:45:10 | CIA-70 | New commit by sideral (r29285): Use generic keyboard actions rather than the device-dependent ... |
| 19:47:04 | pixelma | thanks |
| 19:49:31 | CIA-70 | r29285 build result: All green |
| 19:49:44 | sideral | Thank you pixelma! |
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| 19:55:07 | sideral | pixelma: Re the possibly contended commits: I'm naturally uneasy about this as well. As I don't know what the nature of the steering board request is, it's hard to anticipate what the board's decision might be and rush ahead and implement it. |
| 19:55:35 | sideral | But as I think completing the work is better than being stuck with a half-finished state in SVN, I decided to finish it up speculatively. |
| 19:56:04 | sideral | All this is easy enough to revert if necessary. |
| 19:56:35 | sideral | This is specifically not to create facts that cannot be reconsidered. |
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| 20:09:10 | Llorean | sideral: While I'm against the feature, I'd say keep working on it until such time as any decision's made on it. |
| 20:09:50 | gevaerts | Taking into account of course that if you add any feature after Sunday evening, AlexP will come after you |
| 20:09:57 | Llorean | sideral: From my perspective, until the RSB makes *any* statement, it's still "good." If the RSB decides it's worried about it being hard to back out later, they can always say "please halt commits to it until we've made our decision" and at this time they haven't said anything like that yet. |
| 20:10:12 | Llorean | As far as I know, at least. |
| 20:10:38 | sideral | gevaerts: naturally. It's one of the reasons for completing it now :) |
| 20:10:44 | AlexP | Unless I'm told to postpone the freeze :) |
| 20:11:05 | AlexP | or give special dispensation :) |
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| 20:11:22 | sideral | Llorean: Agreed |
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| 20:11:56 | sideral | AlexP: If you come after me, I'll give you some cookies! |
| 20:12:21 | AlexP | Who told you? |
| 20:12:36 | AlexP | Or did you just look at devcon photos and make an informed guess? :) |
| 20:12:53 | sideral | AlexP: everyone loves my cookies! |
| 20:13:10 | Llorean | What do people feel about having the RC builds be offered *instead* of the "Current Build" during the branch week? |
| 20:13:39 | gevaerts | Llorean: that might be a good idea |
| 20:13:48 | gevaerts | Not sure how much it work it is to implement though |
| 20:13:57 | sideral | AlexP: Now excuse me while I look up those photos ;) |
| 20:14:39 | Llorean | gevaerts: Yeah. It just seems like an idea that might be good to discuss - the more people we can harness to test RCs, the less likely things are to slip through the cracks. |
| 20:15:09 | AlexP | Llorean: would be nice - just for people to install manually |
| 20:15:51 | Llorean | AlexP: I was thinking that we could go as far as having RBUtil not offer the typical "current build" during that period, but having the button say "release candidate" instead, and download that. |
| 20:16:04 | AlexP | I could do some building, would need somewhere to host them |
| 20:16:21 | Llorean | It's just a short period, and for *many* purposes to the user they're similar enough, while a dev will be able to build current builds, and anyone who wants current builds can still manually download 'em from the site |
| 20:16:23 | AlexP | Llorean: yes, possibly - would have to be for the next release though |
| 20:16:28 | Llorean | Yeah, not this time |
| 20:16:50 | Llorean | I was more testing the idea of *replacing* the availability of the current build for the "easier" installs, to encourage use of the RC, than suggesting it being done now. |
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| 20:17:21 | Llorean | I'm sure there are reasons not to 'hide' the current build (at least within the util, I don't think any change to the website need be made) for a week, but I haven't thought of them yet. |
| 20:17:46 | Llorean | And I know the surest way to find out what's wrong with my opinion on something is to speak it out loud. ;) |
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| 20:19:20 | kugel | aren't we talking about RC builds at every upcoming release? |
| 20:19:58 | gevaerts | Yes, but usually nobody makes an actually practical suggestion :) |
| 20:20:02 | Llorean | I'd suggest we build every change after the branch and consider them RCs. |
| 20:21:51 | AlexP | We haven't really thought about RC builds enough |
| 20:22:00 | AlexP | e.g. we need some way for people to report |
| 20:22:04 | gevaerts | We'll need to catch Zagor to discuss what's possible in the build system |
| 20:22:07 | AlexP | A questionnaire or something |
| 20:22:45 | Llorean | Yes, I think there was once proposed a sort of "checklist" of features to ask people to confirm work on their hardware |
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| 20:51:32 | CIA-70 | New commit by dave (r29286): FS #11924 - Use separate targets for RaaA devices. This changes tools/configure to present the (currently four) possible RaaA targets as separate menu ... |
| 20:52:43 | | Part vnl |
| 20:52:43 | * | linuxstb now tries to understand all the #defines used to build RaaA... |
| 20:56:04 | CIA-70 | r29286 build result: All green |
| 20:56:35 | sideral | Speaking of features not to commit after Sunday... Anyone care to give a brief assessment of the FS-tracked features I like? |
| 21:00 |
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| 21:03:54 | sideral | FS #9448 Rewind on fade |
| 21:04:44 | sideral | FS #11769 Change USB charge mode detection key / FS #10198 USB charge only setting |
| 21:05:05 | sideral | FS #10343 Resume playback even if it reached the end and stopped / FS #11644 Playlist isn't loaded after reboot if it had ended |
| 21:05:12 | sideral | FS #11605 |
| 21:05:45 | sideral | FS #11605 Clip+ new keymap |
| 21:05:55 | sideral | FS #11767 Meier crossfeed |
| 21:06:01 | Llorean | sideral: I don't know what exactly has stopped the 11769, but it's been pretty contentions in the past. I don't even know exactly why though |
| 21:06:08 | sideral | FS #11891 Add mp3 gap skipping support to improve gapless playback |
| 21:07:03 | sideral | These are the ones I have in my private build |
| 21:07:36 | | Quit petur (Quit: back in a few days ;)) |
| 21:07:48 | Llorean | sideral: I really don't like that keymap, judging from the last patch. It seems too different from other standard Rockbox keymaps (making a menu button stop, and the power button bring up the menu, etc) |
| 21:08:34 | sideral | Llorean: Yeah, I have heavily modified that keymap as well. But the stock Clip keymap lacks Hotkey and Quickscreen |
| 21:08:36 | Llorean | Also, the quickscreen should be on the same button in the lists as the WPS |
| 21:08:43 | Llorean | Putting it on "down" makes that impossible. |
| 21:08:50 | Llorean | My Clip+ has the quickscreen just fine. |
| 21:08:53 | Llorean | And it's SVN |
| 21:09:20 | sideral | Oh? |
| 21:09:23 | Llorean | Yup |
| 21:09:25 | Llorean | Hold "Home" |
| 21:09:28 | Llorean | Long-menu |
| 21:09:36 | Llorean | Just like it is on many (most?) other Rockbox players |
| 21:09:59 | sideral | Maybe I just never found it :) I have it on Long-down now |
| 21:10:09 | Llorean | Long down doesn't work in lists very well. |
| 21:10:15 | AlexP | FS #10343 has lead to many an argument, long and winding |
| 21:10:32 | Llorean | Instead of changing many things around in the keymap, maybe a separate task should be brought up for "where can we put hotkey?" |
| 21:10:41 | Llorean | I'm not certain there's a button free for it, at least in the list |
| 21:10:57 | AlexP | Consistency across targets for keymaps (where possible) is an absolute must for me |
| 21:10:59 | Llorean | I thought I'd heard that hotkey was on a button combination on Clip+, but being a feature I don't use, I wouldn't know. |
| 21:11:05 | sideral | Llorean: hotkey is long-Home for me. works very well |
| 21:11:17 | Llorean | AlexP: The Clip+ is pretty consistent right now, and as I use it as my everyday player, I feel the keymap is just fine at the moment (better than some, even) |
| 21:11:40 | AlexP | Llorean: Pretty much my point - it shouldn't be made less consistent in SVN |
| 21:12:09 | Llorean | I'm not sure how I feel about the MP3 gap skipping. Last I'd read, the silence detection wasn't that great yet? |
| 21:12:17 | linuxstb | FS #11891 looks like it needs more discussion, rather than a quick commit before release. |
| 21:12:53 | sideral | Llorean: that patch works fine for me. It removes all gaps from commercially purchased MP3s, which often come without the LAME tags |
| 21:13:19 | sideral | linuxstb: I'm afraid none of them is ready for a quick commit :) |
| 21:13:24 | Llorean | I think rewind on pause as a setting with identical options to rewind on stop would likely be relatively non-contentious at least |
| 21:13:42 | Llorean | sideral: I thought someone commented that the "silent" values were still quite loud. |
| 21:13:56 | Llorean | Too aggressive, rather than not aggressive enough. But I don't have the task watched, so maybe that was improved? |
| 21:14:33 | linuxstb | sideral: Yes, I guess if any were ready for commit, they would have been... |
| 21:14:38 | sideral | Llorean: No, but there was an attempt to refute this objection AFAIR |
| 21:15:11 | gevaerts | sideral: how can one refute that? |
| 21:15:12 | sideral | I like the Meier crossfeed patch. In my view, that could completely replace the stock crossfeed mechanism |
| 21:15:25 | gevaerts | Either it deletes some real audio, or it doesn't |
| 21:15:41 | Llorean | It's non-customizable though (the meier crossfeed) and the patch already implements it as coexisting, right? |
| 21:16:23 | sideral | Llorean: right. but the coexistence as done now is a bit confusing because Meier renders all other settings useless |
| 21:16:56 | sideral | gevaerts: Someone argued that the "aggressive" level was OK, and from my experience, it indeed is |
| 21:17:01 | | Join saratoga [0] (9803c6dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.152.3.198.221) |
| 21:17:13 | gevaerts | sideral: surely that very much depends on the music you listen to? |
| 21:17:22 | gevaerts | Have you tried it with e.g. Ravel's Bolero? |
| 21:17:39 | gevaerts | (or any other piece that starts with very nearly silence) |
| 21:17:56 | sideral | gevaerts: that patch removes only quasi-silence from the first and last frame |
| 21:18:00 | saratoga | sideral: FS #11769 can probably go in, as far as I know no one had da problem with it |
| 21:18:02 | Llorean | sideral: We have plenty of options that aren't used if their related feature is turned off, or is in a non-configurable mode, such as stereo width when it's not set to "custom" |
| 21:18:06 | saratoga | i have mixed feelings about the mp3 patch though |
| 21:18:15 | gevaerts | sideral: that first frame can be a very quiet note |
| 21:18:17 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 21:18:36 | Llorean | In a song that fades in / lifts up quietly... |
| 21:18:57 | Llorean | Should there even be a (non-intentional) gap at the start? |
| 21:18:58 | sideral | gevaerts: Right. But the setting is clearly useful for some (me ;) ) |
| 21:19:12 | Llorean | I thought the idea of the patch was to correct for errors in MP3's gaplessness, which should mean it should only affect the last frame? |
| 21:19:18 | gevaerts | sideral: sure, but that doesn't mean it's perfect right now :) |
| 21:19:28 | Torne | Llorean: no, mp3 is imperfect at both ends |
| 21:19:31 | saratoga | mp3 frames are so short i doubt cutting a silent or quiet one would be noticable, but its very hacky |
| 21:19:55 | Torne | doesn't hte patch only do it if there's no lame tag or equivalent, also? |
| 21:19:55 | sideral | Llorean: that's what I thought as well, but mp3 sucks and introduces gaps in the first frame during both encoding and decoding :) |
| 21:19:59 | Llorean | Torne: Isn't the imperfection at the beginning related to decoder/encoder (rather, something we can know by means other than trying to "guess" at silence, or perhaps, by detecting only pure silence?) |
| 21:20:16 | Torne | Llorean: that's both ends |
| 21:20:19 | saratoga | all that does is try to guess the pregap if theres no gapless info |
| 21:20:21 | Torne | and you can only know if the encoder put it in the tag info |
| 21:20:30 | Torne | crap encoders don't |
| 21:20:42 | Llorean | Torne: I thought the one at the end of the song could also be because MP3 pads the rest of the frame if the song doesn't end on a perfect boundary? |
| 21:20:47 | saratoga | so its pretty safe since essentially all modern encoders have gapless info, and in the worst case you only lose 24 ms of audio |
| 21:20:58 | saratoga | yes theres gaps at start and end |
| 21:21:20 | sideral | Re playlist restart: at the very least, the playlist should not get lost on poweroff. And an option to make it restartable (in place of the "Nothing to resume" message) would be nice |
| 21:21:22 | saratoga | the patch removes both |
| 21:21:27 | saratoga | up to one full frames worth |
| 21:21:35 | Llorean | saratoga: Are there other MP3 players that do this sort of thing? Perhaps a common algorithm? |
| 21:21:57 | saratoga | foobar does something similar, but does it as a DSP without knowledge of teh mp3 frame boundaries |
| 21:22:06 | saratoga | as do many winamp plugins and i think a few hardware players like the rio karma |
| 21:22:30 | saratoga | this is a little safer though since it cannot cut past a frame boundary |
| 21:22:33 | Llorean | sideral: I'd at least be very strongly in favor of not losing it at poweroff. I think the "resume" issue was the more contentious part. |
| 21:22:57 | saratoga | IMO that patch should not have a setting |
| 21:23:08 | sideral | Llorean: yes, some people never want to listen to the same stuff twice −− a recurring theme ;) |
| 21:23:13 | saratoga | it should be always on if the file has no gapless info |
| 21:23:14 | Llorean | saratoga: Is there some reason why the padding isn't absolute silence (again, I just remember someone mentioning it had a high threshold) |
| 21:23:27 | saratoga | Llorean: i'm not sure |
| 21:23:30 | saratoga | maybe rounding error? |
| 21:23:44 | sideral | saratoga: agree |
| 21:23:49 | Llorean | saratoga: It seems that would still be very, very, very quiet. But then, I don't know where the comment was about it being set quite loud. |
| 21:24:06 | saratoga | GAP_THRESH 5000000 |
| 21:24:12 | saratoga | that actually looks pretty loud |
| 21:24:13 | * | linuxstb also agrees there is no need for a setting (someone should mention that on the task...) |
| 21:24:16 | sideral | if you don't want the heuristic to kick in, properly tag your files :) |
| 21:24:30 | Torne | Llorean: because the FFT parameters "stick out" of the edge of the frame that does have some sound in it |
| 21:24:37 | gevaerts | sideral: if you don't want that gap, properly tag your files :) |
| 21:25:15 | saratoga | IMO we should just check to see if theres a signal above 16 bits |
| 21:25:21 | saratoga | if there is, keep it, otherwise toss it |
| 21:25:29 | Llorean | Torne: But that's no longer silence, although it may not be something you want. But you can't really safely distinguish between "not silence that we want" and "not silence that we don't" |
| 21:25:30 | saratoga | stuff below 16 bits won't be passed to teh DAC anyway |
| 21:25:55 | Llorean | linuxstb: No setting for the gap skip? |
| 21:25:56 | saratoga | oh i guess thats what that is meant to do, but i think its off by one bit? |
| 21:25:58 | Torne | Llorean: to be honest i think *both* sides of this argument are pointless ;) |
| 21:26:16 | sideral | Llorean: remember that this only removes silence from the first frame. If there's silence you want, it will be in 2nd frame as well |
| 21:26:25 | linuxstb | Llorean: Yes. As saratoga said, it's just active if there is no lame header in the file, in which case the playback will be "wrong" anyway... |
| 21:26:34 | gevaerts | sideral: but you'll have lost some of it! |
| 21:26:36 | Torne | Llorean: There's no point including it because people who are going to notice the tiny gap should jus have properly encoded files. There's no point resisting its inclusion because people with properly encoded files won't be affected by it ;) |
| 21:26:45 | Llorean | linuxstb: Yes, I agree it doesn't need a setting. Just wanted it to be explicit since we've sorta talked about a few things here in the last couple minutes. |
| 21:26:59 | saratoga | thing is, on average even if its wrong you'll only lose 12 ms of silence, and thats not going to be audible |
| 21:27:08 | Llorean | Torne: I just feel it should err in favor of not throwing things we might want out. |
| 21:27:34 | Torne | Llorean: *shrug* It is far more likely thta someone will notice 12ms of extra silence instead of 12ms of missing silence |
| 21:27:37 | sideral | gevaerts: I think there's no guarantee what the decoder delay will be like, so it's a pretty safe assumption that it's unintentional if not tagged properly |
| 21:27:52 | Llorean | Torne: I didn't think we were throwing out a whole frame at a time? |
| 21:28:10 | saratoga | if the track begins with real silence, you could throw out an entire frame |
| 21:28:15 | gevaerts | sideral: I don't see that |
| 21:28:21 | saratoga | of course some or all of it would have been added by the encoder |
| 21:28:26 | Llorean | saratoga: If it begins with real silence, and our goal is to throw out silence, that's fine. |
| 21:28:58 | | Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@SEAS423.wlan.seas.upenn.edu) |
| 21:29:29 | Llorean | I'm just suggesting I'd like it to not be particularly aggressive about declaring "quiet, but noisy" as "silence" |
| 21:29:35 | gevaerts | And anyway, I thought the purpose of "gapless" was to make sure that if two tracks happen to not have complete silence between them there would be no audible artefacts? If you remove silence, you actually *add* artefacts in some cases |
| 21:29:55 | sideral | I think the goal of this patch is to find only unintentionally added silence. If it is intentional, then there will be more silence in the neighboring frame, and the loss of silence will be inaudible |
| 21:30:19 | gevaerts | sideral: it's still more than half a second! That's audible |
| 21:30:41 | gevaerts | It |
| 21:30:53 | gevaerts | It's the bit that you cut of that may be inaudible |
| 21:31:34 | sideral | Didn't someone say 24 ms per frame? 50 ms is not half a second |
| 21:32:34 | Llorean | Do we check for silence in the following / preceding frame? |
| 21:32:58 | Llorean | If it's also silent, or very close to silent, then we'd know it might be unwise to drop the frame? |
| 21:33:16 | sideral | Llorean: Don't think the patch does that; nice idea |
| 21:33:17 | gevaerts | I don't think the exact length matters |
| 21:33:53 | gevaerts | If you're arguing that a gap of a certain length is too long because it's detectable, you *can't* argue that wrongly dropping a gap of the same length is not detectable |
| 21:34:35 | Llorean | gevaerts: To be fair, it shouldn't be able to wrongly drop a gap in a situation where it's detectable. A sudden silence between noises stands out. But a tiny bit less silence in silence doesn't. |
| 21:35:05 | * | linuxstb wonders why CONFIG_CPU == 0 for RaaA |
| 21:35:16 | Llorean | I just want the lowest likelihood of wrongly dropping a sample that's not actually "silent", so a goal of "most silence, and no noise" rather than "all silence, and maybe the occasional bit of noise" |
| 21:35:28 | gevaerts | Llorean: if you're using heuristics to detect silence between (especially matching) noises, you're never going to get it right anyway, and you'll always have audible artefacts |
| 21:36:04 | gevaerts | And if the tracks are not matching, I really don't see how this short bit matters anyway |
| 21:38:06 | | Quit Mikeb0ok (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 21:38:37 | | Quit mystica555_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:39:00 | sideral | Yes, this is a heuristic, but one that likely leaves listeners better off than not attempting to kill the silence artifact |
| 21:39:19 | * | gevaerts disagrees |
| 21:39:44 | sideral | looks like a candidate for a config option, then :) |
| 21:39:52 | linuxstb | gevaerts: Do you know why CONFIG_CPU == 0 for RaaA? |
| 21:39:58 | gevaerts | linuxstb: sorry, no idea |
| 21:40:33 | linuxstb | kugel: ping |
| 21:40:55 | sideral | Llorean: Re rewind on pause: did you mean it should share one set of options with rewind on stop, or have a similar but independent set of options? |
| 21:40:59 | gevaerts | sideral: it seems it's a fixed number of *samples* per frame. I suspect that I noticed the half second when working with a 22050 Hz file |
| 21:41:02 | | Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 21:41:05 | kugel | it's 0 for simulator and all hosted targets |
| 21:41:56 | linuxstb | kugel: That's what I'm reading, but why? |
| 21:42:00 | sideral | but 2* |
| 21:42:16 | linuxstb | kugel: I can understand for the sim, but why RaaA? |
| 21:42:26 | kugel | linuxstb: I don't know how to answer, what would you expect? |
| 21:42:58 | Llorean | sideral: Similar but independent, I think. |
| 21:43:26 | sideral | gevaerts: 2*48 ms is still only a fifth of 0.5 s ... but perhaps noticable |
| 21:43:50 | gevaerts | hm |
| 21:44:02 | saratoga | mp3 frames are 1152 samples IIRC, so 1152/44100 = 26 ms (rather then 24 as I said above) |
| 21:44:03 | gevaerts | Oh, wait |
| 21:44:10 | * | gevaerts sees |
| 21:44:21 | linuxstb | kugel: I'm trying to understand why you decided to do that, instead of defining it to be the target's CPU type. By defining it to be 0, there are no CPU-specific codec optimisations, or have you enabled those in some other way? |
| 21:44:36 | gevaerts | The cutting tools I used were not per frame, but per GoP. That makes a pretty big difference... |
| 21:44:54 | gevaerts | So ignore those numbers |
| 21:44:55 | sideral | gevaerts: oh. :) |
| 21:45:25 | kugel | linuxstb: I based it off sdl raaa, which is based on the sim. it wasn't not much of a decision |
| 21:45:47 | saratoga | gory details: http://lame.sourceforge.net/tech-FAQ.txt |
| 21:46:02 | kugel | I thought CONFIG_CPU hasn't a meaning on RaaA so 0 kinda fits |
| 21:46:44 | gevaerts | Anyway, I think my point doesn't depend on that :). If the tracks are not encoded together, you'll have audible mismatches even if you drop the exact needed number of samples. If you need heuristics, I'd say the chance of the tracks being encoded together is near zero |
| 21:47:17 | sideral | gevaerts: Would you also oppose making this configurable? |
| 21:48:04 | linuxstb | kugel: OK, thanks - I'm just trying to catch up on what's been done, as I was otherwise occupied last summer... |
| 21:48:11 | gevaerts | sideral: I'd argue against it, and assume that whoever commits it has thought about it and not ignored the arguments :) |
| 21:48:29 | gevaerts | If it's *not* configurable, I'm very strongly against it |
| 21:48:49 | * | linuxstb should perhaps withdraw the comment he hastily added to FS #11891... |
| 21:49:24 | kugel | linuxstb: you're welcome |
| 21:49:24 | AlexP | We have far to many damn options |
| 21:49:28 | sideral | gevaerts: good to know :) fortunately I'm not qualified enough in the area to commit it, but I'd love to see this in as an option. |
| 21:49:34 | AlexP | *too |
| 21:49:44 | * | gevaerts does not want any unconditional feature that automatically drops actual audio data |
| 21:49:47 | saratoga | wait what, i thought we agreed not to have an option |
| 21:50:02 | linuxstb | gevaerts: If you feel strongly, please post to the task... |
| 21:50:10 | saratoga | i absolutely do not want options that let people configure at run time how the decoders work |
| 21:50:25 | gevaerts | I'm not insisting that there be a setting. I'm insisting that the feature doesn't go in without a setting. That's not the same thing |
| 21:50:25 | kugel | linuxstb: I guess CONFIG_PLATFORM is the nearest equivalent. IIRC I thought it about repurposing CONFIG_CPU but that'd would've been a lot of changes and I think it's cleaner with CONFIG_PLATFORM |
| 21:51:57 | saratoga | gevaerts: what about just changing the threshold so that dropping samples only happens if they have 16 or more leading samples (and thus would produce digital silence on an actual device)? |
| 21:52:07 | saratoga | "16 or more leading 0s) |
| 21:52:09 | saratoga | " |
| 21:52:18 | gevaerts | saratoga: what if I want silence? |
| 21:52:20 | linuxstb | kugel: I'm currently looking at all the #defines etc used in RaaA to try and see if they can be simplified in any way. I think PLATFORM and CPU are very different though - e.g. the SDL app could be built for many CPUs. |
| 21:52:27 | sideral | AlexP: I for one like all the options :) but I repeat myself. |
| 21:52:27 | sideral | We could start cutting options, though. Replace the 40 or so crossfeed options with the Meier crossfeed from FS #11767 :) |
| 21:52:35 | gevaerts | Silence *is* valid audio |
| 21:53:17 | saratoga | gevaerts: to be clear, even if the detection here is completely wrong, you're only going to lose something like 15-20 ms worth of samples here, thats going to be below the temporal response of your ear |
| 21:53:42 | kugel | linuxstb: I'm not sure if we're going to use CONFIG_CPU for any RaaA in the future |
| 21:53:42 | gevaerts | saratoga: as I said, that's a very strong argument against this feature |
| 21:53:56 | saratoga | i don't follow you |
| 21:54:00 | linuxstb | kugel: Why not? How else would you enable CPU-specific optimisations? |
| 21:54:30 | kugel | currently CONFIG_PLATFORM is used |
| 21:54:32 | gevaerts | saratoga: if it's negligible, why do you need to drop it? |
| 21:54:53 | kugel | so, while the RSB is busy with autoresume we can have the next controverse feature? |
| 21:55:05 | sideral | gevaerts: it's negligible in length of silince, not in drop of amplitude |
| 21:55:19 | saratoga | gevaerts: because adding silence (that you can't hear) to the middle of a track can create an artifact |
| 21:55:30 | kugel | gevaerts: I think he means it's negible if it's actual audio, but not if it's a gap of silence |
| 21:55:33 | saratoga | the reverse (removing silence that you can't hear from silence) is not true |
| 21:55:38 | gevaerts | saratoga: where does this middle of a track come into it? |
| 21:55:53 | linuxstb | kugel: I'm delaying my opinion on that until I look at things more... ;) |
| 21:56:15 | gevaerts | kugel: silence *is* *actual* *audio* |
| 21:56:20 | saratoga | gevaerts: if you split a recording in half and make 2 mp3s from it, the pregap (which is too short for your ear to hear) will still create an artifact in the form of a click (due to gibbs effects and such) |
| 21:56:30 | kugel | gevaerts: not in my book |
| 21:56:30 | saratoga | the idea is to avoid that artifact |
| 21:56:33 | linuxstb | kugel: But it seems to me that in the long-term (or even now, with the SDL app), one platform can be running on multiple CPUs. |
| 21:56:47 | gevaerts | saratoga: if you do that sort of thing with an encoder or tools that don't handle this properly, you're an idiot |
| 21:57:00 | saratoga | well a lot of people have |
| 21:57:08 | saratoga | what do you care then if you're not an idiot and haven't done this? |
| 21:57:09 | sideral | gevaerts: I'm not an idiot for buying MP3s from Amazom |
| 21:57:22 | saratoga | you have non-gapless mp3s from amazon? |
| 21:57:30 | | Join krazykit [0] (~krazykit@99-126-205-52.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:57:32 | gevaerts | And if you do that, samples won't line up anyway, so you're quite likely to get clicks |
| 21:57:52 | saratoga | yes, but you can make the glitch much harder to notice |
| 21:57:58 | saratoga | and in some cases eliminate it |
| 21:58:10 | sideral | gevaerts: In fact, they will line up nicely in the typical case |
| 21:58:24 | gevaerts | sideral: only if you use a lossless encoder |
| 21:58:37 | saratoga | i mean as linuxstb point out to me years ago, theres a glitch even when you have gapless info (since the phase won't be continuous) its just subtle enough that most people don't notice it |
| 21:58:45 | saratoga | thats really the idea here, to make the artifact harder to hear |
| 21:58:49 | sideral | saratoga: Yes, I have |
| 21:59:00 | saratoga | what did they encode them with? |
| 21:59:54 | sideral | saratoga: Can't check right now |
| 22:00 |
| 22:01:04 | sideral | or wait, actually can |
| 22:03:33 | sideral | LAME3.97 |
| 22:03:47 | sideral | interesting |
| 22:03:54 | * | gevaerts also doesn't see why people with such broken files can't add the necessary metadata to them to fix the issue properly |
| 22:08:14 | kugel | that would be the first setting that alters the behavior of a (specific) codec, isn't it? |
| 22:08:14 | saratoga | IMO it comes down to trying to decide which is better: decode with length you know is wrong, or decode with a length you know is wrong but use what information you have to make it less wrong |
| 22:08:14 | saratoga | kugel: as far as I know yes |
| 22:08:14 | sideral | kugel: well, it would fix a deficiency that a particular format has |
| 22:08:14 | saratoga | sideral: does foobar report them as having lame gapless info? |
| 22:08:14 | sideral | saratoga: That's the thing, they don't have those tags |
| 22:08:14 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK saratoga |
| 22:08:14 | saratoga | its possible they edited the mp3 in something else that removed the lame header |
| 22:08:14 | sideral | yep |
| 22:08:14 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK sideral |
| 22:08:14 | sideral | I think I've seen this in multiple albums I bought on Amazon |
| 22:08:14 | | Quit Zambezi (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:08:14 | | Join Zambezi [0] (Zulu@80.67.9.2) |
| 22:08:14 | sideral | saratoga: Why are you so much against a config option for this? I can understand people like gevaerts who don't want us to fiddle with their audio at any cost... |
| 22:08:14 | saratoga | weird, never seen it with ones i've bought, but i guess some labels are better then others |
| 22:08:26 | kugel | saratoga: I don't want to say it's a problem (codecs have no gui to provide their own settings so there's no other way). I just wanted to note this world premiere :) |
| 22:08:50 | Ctcp | Ignored 2 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood |
| 22:08:50 | * | sideral will be thrown out of this building in a few minutes |
| 22:08:54 | saratoga | because I don't want settings for codecs, and because I cannot understand why people would care, its an internal decision made by the decoder not something people should know about |
| 22:09:10 | Llorean | Maybe a "gaplessfix" plugin that does the gap detection and adds the tags, instead? |
| 22:09:24 | gevaerts | That would be the proper solution, yes |
| 22:09:33 | gevaerts | Well, that or a host-side tool |
| 22:10:36 | Llorean | So that it's simple to do on-player still, but doesn't require either settings or questionable behaviour/heuristics. |
| 22:10:36 | kugel | I'm very sure if the codec had it initially by upstream nobody would argue (or even notice) |
| 22:10:37 | gevaerts | We once had a bug that dropped a few miliseconds at the end of playback. We *did* notice eventually |
| 22:11:01 | kugel | I'm indifferent about a setting; on the one hand it wouldn't be noticeable, but on the other hand people that have proper gapless shouldn't suffer |
| 22:11:43 | gevaerts | If files are broken, fix the files |
| 22:11:43 | kugel | yours is a bug, but we talk about a feature :P |
| 22:11:45 | sideral | Catch up with you later. Security is comingfqwpofhn%R56rR&%(5AR NO CARRIER |
| 22:11:47 | saratoga | if we can't agree on how to handle this, we should just ignore it |
| 22:11:51 | | Quit efyx (Quit: Quitte) |
| 22:12:42 | linuxstb | Llorean: I guess an option in vbrfix... |
| 22:13:39 | saratoga | i dislike the idea of adding fake gapless tags to mp3 files |
| 22:13:53 | saratoga | since they're just estimates, but they make it look like the file is actually gapless . . . |
| 22:14:41 | kugel | so they potentially don't even remove the gap? |
| 22:15:41 | saratoga | they probably won't get it exactly right, so theres likely to be a few samples error |
| 22:15:42 | gevaerts | "I dislike the idea of detecting gaps in mp3 files, since they're just estimates, but they make it look like the file is actually gapless" |
| 22:15:44 | | Quit GeekShadow (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:15:53 | saratoga | hey thats my post |
| 22:16:01 | saratoga | give it back |
| 22:16:03 | gevaerts | Not entirely :) |
| 22:16:35 | saratoga | gapless is always only approximate anyway, since even if you have the tag you can still get a slight artifact, but at least if you have the tag you know the length is right |
| 22:16:47 | saratoga | if you just make up a tag thats kind of ugly |
| 22:16:53 | | Quit sideral (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 22:16:59 | gevaerts | Well, if the encoder knows about it, it's *possible* to have it artefactless |
| 22:17:09 | saratoga | i'm not sure it is actually |
| 22:17:27 | saratoga | because i don't think you can make the last and first samples continuous |
| 22:17:38 | gevaerts | You don't have to |
| 22:17:51 | saratoga | well you do if you want to have no possibility of a glitch |
| 22:17:54 | gevaerts | You can still use the tags to skip samples |
| 22:18:02 | saratoga | yeah but that doesn't mean there won't be a glitch |
| 22:18:19 | gevaerts | So if you can match halfway the last frame and halfway the first frame (more or less), you're fine |
| 22:18:29 | saratoga | you can get the number of samples exactly right and still have a problem if the last sample of the first track doesn't line up with the first sample of the second track |
| 22:18:53 | saratoga | plus its ackward to make filterbanks give the right value for the very first sample |
| 22:19:04 | saratoga | i'm not even sure if the mp3 spec does teh right thin in this regard |
| 22:19:13 | | Quit [Saint] (Disconnected by services) |
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| 22:20:12 | saratoga | but regardless, i think the real question is how should a decoder responsibly handle a file if its not given gapless info, should it use what it knows to reduce the error (e.g. try and detect the encoder delay) or should it just give up and assume the user doesn't care? |
| 22:20:25 | gevaerts | Sure, but these tags say to drop the first (or last) N samples, so if you know you can't get the first or last 100 samples right, use whatever encoder magic to be right starting at the 100th sample, and set the tag |
| 22:21:05 | gevaerts | I'm not saying this is easy to do :) |
| 22:21:08 | saratoga | yeah but how do you make the samples have a specific value? mp3 only encodes the general energy per subband, not the exact time domain value |
| 22:21:44 | saratoga | i'm not even sure if its possible to exert that level of control over samples in the time domain (should probably ask Buschel about that actually) |
| 22:21:48 | gevaerts | hm, does this depend on the decoder? |
| 22:22:11 | saratoga | probably not, at least not for a decoder thats going for full accuracy decoding |
| 22:22:33 | gevaerts | Then in the worst case you could just try again until it looks right |
| 22:23:32 | saratoga | but if you can't control where a given sample falls in the filterbank, and you only have 2 filterbank sizes to choose from, how do you set a specific sample to a specific value using only the (limited) quantization levels available to you? |
| 22:24:04 | gevaerts | Ah, that's where the exercise for the interested reader appears :) |
| 22:24:19 | saratoga | iteratively encode and decode the file until you manage to minimize the error (and hope that theres even a solution)? |
| 22:24:45 | saratoga | and how do you tell the next file you encode what the solution you picked was |
| 22:25:10 | | Join mudd1 [0] (~cmertes@ip-78-94-203-49.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 22:25:17 | saratoga | you probably can't just pick zero everytime, since then you're introducing another artifact by forcing 0 samples that shouldn't be there |
| 22:25:36 | gevaerts | You might have to encode the entire album as one unit |
| 22:25:48 | saratoga | thats what the nogap feature in lame does |
| 22:26:05 | saratoga | it probably does work a little better, but it can be ugly since it messes up the track lengths a bit |
| 22:26:30 | | Quit stoffel (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:26:39 | evilnick_B | gevaerts: Yes, everyone should use .cue files |
| 22:27:07 | saratoga | i think in the end encoders and decoder just do as well as they can and usually no one noticing if theres some minor error |
| 22:27:23 | saratoga | which is in keeping with the general spirit of the patch i think |
| 22:31:56 | linuxstb | kugel: Is this change correct? It looks like it would prevent Rockbox doing any housekeeping when shutting down? http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/apps/misc.c?r1=26721&r2=27019&pathrev=28480 |
| 22:32:45 | | Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
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| 22:36:29 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 22:37:41 | kugel | linuxstb: thomasjfox is on this, I would talk to him |
| 22:38:01 | kugel | that change is part of his current state |
| 22:38:36 | linuxstb | What do you mean? That change is from your commit 7 months ago (sorry, I'm a bit late reviewing it... ;) ) |
| 22:39:20 | kugel | ah uh, then reverting that change is part of his current state :) |
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| 22:59:20 | | Join Suit_Of_Sables [0] (~ennui@c-71-232-78-65.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 23:00 |
| 23:01:15 | | Quit evilnick_B (Quit: Page closed) |
| 23:01:54 | Suit_Of_Sables | Having a hard time mounting my sansa fuve v2 under linux. I use 'sudo mount -f /dev/sdc /mnt/fuze' which doesn't return any error and repeating the command tells me it is already mounted there. but /mnt/fuze is empty. I chowned it so It was writable and with the mount point and device set in rbutil the installation seemed to go fine. even had the .bin for the original bootloader. but after running rbutil my fuze is no longer mount |
| 23:02:24 | | Quit esperegu (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:04:23 | linuxstb | Suit_Of_Sables: Why "-f" ? |
| 23:04:47 | | Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 23:05:24 | | Quit liar (Read error: No route to host) |
| 23:06:17 | | Join liar [0] (~liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at) |
| 23:06:48 | Suit_Of_Sables | linuxstb: otherwise I get 'unknown file system type 'vfat' ' |
| 23:07:25 | linuxstb | "-f" fakes the mounting according to the manpage, so it doesn't actually mount it. |
| 23:07:34 | Torne | Yeah, -f is not force, it's fake :) |
| 23:07:43 | Bagder | Suit_Of_Sables: "grep vfat /proc/filesystems" gives? |
| 23:07:44 | linuxstb | You probably want /dev/sdc1 (but I don't know the fuze's disk layout) |
| 23:07:58 | linuxstb | (or not... maybe ignore me) |
| 23:08:37 | Bagder | "unknown file system" sounds like a bad thing |
| 23:08:40 | | Join mudd1 [0] (~cmertes@ip-78-94-203-49.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 23:08:48 | Torne | either you're mounting the wrong device or your kernel deosn't have vfat support |
| 23:08:55 | Torne | what linux distribution is this? |
| 23:08:59 | Suit_Of_Sables | Bagder: no output |
| 23:09:02 | Suit_Of_Sables | arch llinux |
| 23:09:07 | Torne | did you configure your own kernel? |
| 23:09:09 | Bagder | Suit_Of_Sables: you don't have vfat support then |
| 23:09:22 | Bagder | add it, rebuild, reboot and retry |
| 23:09:37 | Bagder | or possibly load the module |
| 23:09:56 | | Join stripwax [0] (~Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk) |
| 23:10:51 | AlexP | I can confirm that (perhaps not surprisingly) Arch does have vfat suport by default :) |
| 23:11:06 | Torne | try "modprobe vfat" |
| 23:12:45 | Suit_Of_Sables | Torne: not there |
| 23:13:02 | Torne | did you build your own kernel? |
| 23:13:09 | Suit_Of_Sables | I installed the dosfstools package which is supposed to add vfat support... |
| 23:13:13 | Suit_Of_Sables | not my own kernel |
| 23:13:26 | Torne | Then it sounds like your system might be broken in a rather unfortunate way |
| 23:13:32 | Torne | perhaps your modules have gone missing :) |
| 23:13:48 | Torne | dosfstools is a bunch of userspace tools for managing FAT filesystems |
| 23:13:58 | Torne | the module to actually mount one is part of the kernel |
| 23:14:16 | | Join DerPapst [0] (~Alexander@91-66-226-46-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 23:15:35 | Torne | if it's neither built into the kernel nor available as a module, and you have a regular distribution packaged kernel, then i would guess something bad has happened, since it's pretty much unthinkable at this point that anyone would ship a kernel without FAT |
| 23:16:20 | AlexP | They definately do ship FAT support in the kernel, so something else is buggered |
| 23:16:35 | AlexP | well, modules |
| 23:16:42 | AlexP | It is there anyway :) |
| 23:17:10 | Torne | (have you *ever* been able to mount USB devices formatted as FAT?) |
| 23:17:28 | Torne | (and have you done anythig interesting to the machine since last time you did? :) |
| 23:18:21 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:18:51 | AlexP | Suit_Of_Sables: try "pacman -Ql kernel26 |grep fat" |
| 23:19:11 | AlexP | It should show any files containing "fat" in the kernel package |
| 23:19:17 | | Quit Suit_Of_Sables (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:19:22 | AlexP | or don't :) |
| 23:24:39 | | Join Suit_Of_Sables [0] (~ennui@c-71-232-78-65.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 23:24:57 | Suit_Of_Sables | hmm so my kernel must have changed because after a reboot I can mount vfat |
| 23:24:58 | | Join mlt- [0] (~8654d106@giant.haxx.se) |
| 23:25:07 | Suit_Of_Sables | but rbutil still can't auto detect my device |
| 23:25:17 | Torne | are you running it as root? |
| 23:25:46 | mlt- | I wonder if anyone tried to build UIsimulator under MS Windows recently? |
| 23:26:52 | AlexP | natively you mean? |
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| 23:27:02 | mlt- | yes, not cross from linuyx |
| 23:27:08 | AlexP | rasher provides cross compiled sims for Windows |
| 23:27:13 | AlexP | I doubt it |
| 23:27:51 | rasher | Logic says it should be possible |
| 23:28:15 | Torne | mlt-: do you ask because you tried and it didn't work? |
| 23:28:20 | Torne | or because you are worried that it might not work? |
| 23:28:24 | Torne | because if the latter then it probably will |
| 23:28:28 | Torne | so just try it |
| 23:28:35 | Torne | and if the former then, er, tell us what happened :) |
| 23:28:54 | mlt- | I hardly see any reason to cross compile simulator from linux. AFAIK most ppl use it for development and debugging and not just to play with it, so it makes sense to build and debug on host system. |
| 23:29:22 | Torne | Most people use it for testing themes, i suspect |
| 23:29:22 | mlt- | AlexP, Torne: Yes, it didn't work for me. I added some notes into Wiki. And I wonder if anyone tried ) |
| 23:29:35 | Torne | most people who use it for development and debugging use linux as their host system |
| 23:29:40 | mlt- | Torne: oh.... that is a good reason. I forgot about it |
| 23:30:01 | Torne | so it doesn't surprise me that nobody has tried for a while :) |
| 23:30:35 | Torne | theme developers don't build it, and rockbox developers rarely use windows :) |
| 23:31:18 | Suit_Of_Sables | Torne: I haven't been running it as root. I can a chown on the mount point for this user but I'm being told now I can't write to it |
| 23:31:21 | rasher | mlt-: are you trying to build in cygwin with the regular gcc, or using mingw32 to get a (more?) native binary? |
| 23:31:38 | rasher | Not sure what the proper way to express this is.. |
| 23:31:51 | mlt- | mingw gcc |
| 23:32:25 | Torne | Suit_Of_Sables: i mean running rbutil as root |
| 23:32:56 | rasher | mlt-: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the configure script just isn't ready for that |
| 23:33:16 | mlt- | I don't have linux at work :( that is why I tried to build under windows so I can just debug from Eclipse CDT under Windows. |
| 23:33:21 | mlt- | configure script is fine |
| 23:33:35 | Torne | just becuase it doesn't fail doens't mean it configured it correctly :) |
| 23:34:04 | mlt- | there are other problems |
| 23:34:36 | rasher | I think you may be the first to try this |
| 23:34:47 | rasher | In fact, I'm fairly sure you are |
| 23:35:09 | mlt- | oh.. well.. Here is my experience http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulatorWindows |
| 23:35:28 | rasher | Yeah, I'm looking at it |
| 23:35:34 | kugel | rasher: nah I gave it a quick try ages ago |
| 23:35:46 | rasher | Shows what I know |
| 23:36:07 | kugel | I didn't make it public |
| 23:40:47 | mlt- | I guess most of the stuff can be cleaned up, but I'm not sure why some make targets don't build as mentioned at the bottom of wiki page. Perhaps not all dependencies are generated correctly. |
| 23:42:02 | rasher | Using the alternate perl could be done by just setting PATH, right? Or do you only want to use the alternate one in that one place? |
| 23:42:48 | mlt- | strawberry perl comes with its gcc as well |
| 23:43:06 | mlt- | I don't want to override those |
| 23:43:43 | mlt- | though... it is in separate folder :-) |
| 23:43:53 | mlt- | yeah.. i'll correct that |
| 23:44:54 | Suit_Of_Sables | ugh... well I ran rbutil as root and it installed to the fuze. after the 'firmware updating' all seemed well. but now my machine doesn't see it when I run fdisk -l |
| 23:46:55 | mlt- | rasher: lang.make still has to be altered a bit... genlang uses #!/usr/bin/perl .... if perl was used explicitly in lang.make , then path override for perl would work |
| 23:47:58 | rasher | Ah right, we're out of luck then. If only /usr/bin/env wasn't so goddamn useless (it won't pass arguments... what the hell guys?) |
| 23:48:45 | mlt- | ah? |
| 23:49:02 | rasher | Well genlang needs /usr/bin/perl -s right? |
| 23:49:36 | rasher | otherwise we could do #!/usr/bin/env perl (which would use whichever perl was first in PATH) |
| 23:51:15 | linuxstb | kugel: You know Android isn't just ARM? |
| 23:51:48 | kugel | there's no official non-ARM distribution AFAIC |
| 23:51:52 | kugel | AFAIK* |
| 23:52:04 | mlt- | rasher: oic... but we could just use perl explicitly in lang.make |
| 23:52:11 | linuxstb | What does "official" mean? It's open-source... |
| 23:53:12 | rasher | mlt-: you're right |
| 23:53:15 | kugel | AOSP only supports ARM currently |
| 23:54:49 | kugel | I tried an x86 port in VM recently and it's not very usable |
| 23:57:26 | | Quit bertrik (Quit: :tiuQ) |
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