#rockbox 2011-02-14

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#rockbox log for 2011-02-14

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00:14:01	n1s	Buschel: (for the logs) ah, yes that UNIT_TIME think can probably be dropped, i don't see much of a reason to keep it especially since it will be wrong in some languages and is just a short form in English
00:14:14	n1s	s/think/thing
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00:30:21	JdGordon1	sideral: hey, just seen your FS comment about a unified rewind on resume.... agreed 100%
00:30:28	JdGordon1	we dont need 15 rewind-on-X settings
00:30:31		Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.53=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
00:31:45	Llorean	JdGordon1: Besides stop and pause, which can be seen as quite different things, what would the other potential cases where you see someone arguing for a "rewind" option be (that qualifies as another "resume", specifically, since rewind on resume obviously wouldn't replace non-resume situations)
00:32:37	JdGordon1	there has been at least 3 tasks now, rewind on {car resume, fade, resume}
00:33:12	[Saint]	rewind on fade?
00:33:28	[Saint]	is that even possible?
00:33:37	JdGordon1	everything is possible
00:33:50	JdGordon1	FS #9448 apparently
00:33:54	gevaerts	"fade" meaning fade on stop being enabled?
00:34:00	JdGordon1	probably
00:34:04	*	[Saint] highly doubts there's a setting that rewinds whilst fading...but, people are crazy...
00:34:08	sideral	I actually do not have a strong preference. I could live with many options or just one, general option. I respect that some people want to make a distinction
00:34:37	sideral	Saint: I use FS #9448 as a replacement for a more general rewind-on-unpause
00:35:06		Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
00:35:06	[Saint]	I have to say, I'm very passionate about my rewind setings.
00:35:22	*	gevaerts rewinds every few weeks :)
00:35:24	[Saint]	so, bug me about this if you can, and want a strong opinion ;)
00:35:45	[Saint]	as do I, manually, but I like my resume/rewind settings.
00:35:46	JdGordon1	because there is nothing quite like having arguments with strong opinions :p
00:36:36	Llorean	JdGordon1: I think the options should be "rewind on resume" and "rewind on unpause" and that's it.
00:36:45	sideral	Llorean: Someone could even argue there should be a rewind amount for autoresume. I wouldn't use it if it was configurable separately, but I wouldn't mind either if this was folded into a general rewind-on-resume feature.
00:37:01	[Saint]	ewww....no.
00:37:13	[Saint]	I think resume/autoresume the same thing in this instance.
00:37:14	JdGordon1	Llorean: AFAIC resume == unpause...
00:37:19	Llorean	Pause is for 'temporary' stops, an stop is for longer stops. And I can see there a solid case for wanting to rewind a bit for longer stops, but not short pauses.
00:37:30	[Saint]	Llorean: agreed.
00:37:32	Llorean	If they're for the same thing, they shouldn't be separate features.
00:37:38	JdGordon1	they arent
00:37:41	[Saint]	I don't want it to rewind if I merely pause.
00:37:46	gevaerts	Can we make it dependent on time of day?
00:37:47	[Saint]	but, if I stop playback.
00:37:49	JdGordon1	but fair enough if s/resume/restart/
00:38:01	gevaerts	I mean, in the morning I'm not fully awake, so I want it to rewind a bit more
00:38:02	Llorean	JdGordon1: It's called "resume playback" in the menu
00:38:16	Llorean	JdGordon1: So, "resume" is the term I'm using for "un-stop"
00:38:31	[Saint]	gevaerts: I could do a touchscreen wps that offered you settings for this onscreen? ;)
00:38:36	JdGordon1	resume ======= unpause
00:38:42	Llorean	unpause == unpause
00:38:49	Llorean	resume == "Resume Playback" option in the menu.
00:38:54	JdGordon1	yes but I used more = marks so im correct
00:38:55	[Saint]	resume == resume, unpause == unpause.
00:38:56	[Saint]	IMO
00:39:11	sideral	:)
00:39:20	gevaerts	JdGordon1: I'd say you're more equally correct
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00:39:24	[Saint]	resume I see as playback being stopped, then resumed.
00:39:26	Llorean	Either way, unstop and unpause are different actions and should be treated differently
00:39:29	[Saint]	otherwise it's simply a pause.
00:39:39	Llorean	Until such time as they're merged.
00:39:43	sideral	There's no point arguing. People have preferences.
00:39:53	[Saint]	there bloody is too point!
00:40:06	Llorean	People can set unpause and unstop rewind behaviour to be identical. If there's only one setting, then they can't get independent behaviour.
00:40:09	[Saint]	we need not a million settings that influence other people for the needs of few.
00:40:26	JdGordon1	[Saint]: umm, we have that already....
00:40:27	[Saint]	so arguing is indeed quite relevant.
00:40:28	Llorean	I don't like a million settings, but I feel these two are pretty different things.
00:40:29	gevaerts	sideral: the point would be to see how things overlap so we can get the minimal set of settings that satisfies the maximum number of people
00:40:40	*	JdGordon1 is willing to bet most people leave 80+% of the setting default
00:40:47	[Saint]	JdGordon1: exactly why we should argue about them! ;P
00:41:02	gevaerts	JdGordon1: oh, sure, but those that do never complain here!
00:41:07	[Saint]	and, I must certainly not be "most" people then.
00:41:22	[Saint]	my .cfg is a complex mix a settings I prefer...I'd cry if I lost it.
00:41:45	gevaerts	And it's only those who complain who ever write a patch and thus start contributing!
00:41:47	JdGordon1	and no, resuming playback is resuming playback is unpauseing playback. the only case I;d accept where there is a difference is resuming from power-on or STOP, but then i would expect the fae setting would be wanted anyway
00:42:02	gevaerts	Ergo, we need more controversial settings if we want more developers!
00:42:07	JdGordon1	HAHA
00:42:08	JdGordon1	done!
00:42:11	Llorean	JdGordon1: What does power on have to do with fade?
00:42:15	*	JdGordon1 gets back into proper development then
00:42:40	*	[Saint] must say he really doesn't agree that resume and un-pause is the same thing.
00:42:48	JdGordon1	Llorean: give me a logical reaosn why anyone would want to always fade-in when resuming from pause but not when resuming from poweron
00:42:52	[Saint]	but, I'm just not too passionate about it presently.
00:42:52	sideral	gevaerts: I love and hate you for this reasoning. You are so obviously correct!
00:42:56	Llorean	JdGordon1: It's been decided in the past to keep pause and stop separate, so I don't see what you're basing your statement than unpause and unstop are identical on. They aren't the same thing in Rockbox at the moment.
00:43:00	Llorean	They may be in your head, but that's not where it counts.
00:43:34	Llorean	JdGordon1: I thought we were talking about always rewinding, and was trying to figure out what fade + power on has to do with rewind.
00:43:43	Llorean	I guess you were moving on to something else from that explanation?
00:43:54	JdGordon1	no, just getting confused....
00:43:57	JdGordon1	same thing
00:44:14	JdGordon1	there is no sane reason to want to rewind on resume from pause but not from poweron
00:44:28	Llorean	But there is same reason to want to rewind from stop but not from pause
00:44:52	Llorean	If you use pause for temporary breaks (someone wants to talk to you) and stop for when you expect not to come back immediately (put down the player, possibly power off)
00:44:53	JdGordon1	and stop != pause because of technical reasons (WHICH HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED AND SERIOUSY CONSIDERED MERGING), not from some phylosophical reasoning
00:45:05	Llorean	Seriously considered, but rejected after discussion.
00:45:09	[Saint]	there may not be a "sane" reason, but I don't think we can safely assume it's "safe" to bundle pause and resume together when they're clearly different things.
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02:07:46	[Saint]	Hmmmm, why is it sometimes that I need to uninstall RaaA to update, and others it wil treat it as an update?
02:08:01	[Saint]	Will it only be an "update" if it's built by the same machine?
02:10:54	JdGordon1	you answered your own question
02:11:00	JdGordon1	umm... yes
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03:14:31	CIA-70	New commit by jethead71 (r29302): Leave a gap between all handles because ringbuf_add_cross interprets equal pointers as empty, corruption guard check could fail to detect overlap if ...
03:18:43	CIA-70	r29302 build result: All green
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09:36:32	CIA-70	New commit by jethead71 (r29303): Buffering: tin cup. Update threading structure and handle rebuffer more reliably on buffer thread using a single message send.
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10:19:00	CIA-70	New commit by jethead71 (r29304): Code police buffering.c a little - use already predominant style - shorted lines over 80 cols.
10:22:33	CIA-70	r29304 build result: All green
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11:27:58	tmzt	http://matthiyosi.blogspot.com/2009/10/using-skia-in-android-native-code.html
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11:31:57	gevaerts	tmzt: any hint on what skia is?
11:32:14	tmzt	skia is the rendering library android uses
11:32:27	tmzt	this lets you remove the call into java for rendering lcd updates
11:32:34	gevaerts	ah
11:32:43	tmzt	I was tearing apart webview looking for that
11:32:52	tmzt	found this after I found the magic call
11:33:09	tmzt	10:19 < tmzt> 062 // Note: this is called from UI thread, don't count it for WebViewCoreTimeCounter
11:33:12	tmzt	10:19 < tmzt> 3063 WebViewCore* viewImpl = GET_NATIVE_VIEW(env, obj);
11:33:14	tmzt	10:19 < tmzt> 3064 SkCanvas* canvas = GraphicsJNI::getNativeCanvas(env, canv);
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11:33:35	tmzt	might also help with some of the requester stuff
11:33:36	*	gevaerts leaves this to kugel :)
11:33:52	tmzt	yeah, I saw he wasn't on
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11:34:59	tmzt	I use some code very similar to yours in my X port to android, so I was looking for something more efficient than drawBitmap from a NativeBuffer
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11:37:49	tmzt	Nokia==Novel
11:37:56	tmzt	it didn't quite pay off for them either
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11:39:12	tmzt	twice I fail tonight
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12:04:02	wodz\|work	gosh, rk27xx lcd subsystem IS complicated. There is lcdpanel with its own controller chip connected to the rockchip lcd controller module. This module can do YUV<->RGB conversion, hardware scalling, can blit two separate regions with specified alpha value on top of the background
12:05:39	wodz\|work	this module plays with dedicated DMA engine which can do regular block transfers from both AHB busses (ARM and DSP), multiple block transfers or multiple block, linked list transfers
12:06:08	wodz\|work	there are 4 channels whith such capabilities at your disposal :-)\
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12:27:50	CIA-70	New commit by jethead71 (r29305): All kernel objects in code shared amongs targets (core, plugins, codecs) should be declared SHAREDBSS_ATTR as any core could potentially touch them ...
12:32:45	CIA-70	r29305 build result: All green
12:36:37	[Saint]	jhMikeS: what's the status of FS #11863?
12:37:32	jhMikeS	as is the bugs or the patches I flooded it with?
12:38:05	[Saint]	tha patches. is it being committed?
12:38:11	jhMikeS	fwiw, I haven't managed to crash anything today, there were still some nasty bugs
12:38:14	[Saint]	*the
12:38:17	jhMikeS	it is committed
12:38:25	[Saint]	oh, it is?
12:38:30	[Saint]	aha.
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12:38:59	jhMikeS	I was just heading there to make a note of that fact and you popped up asking! :)
12:39:10	[Saint]	lols
12:40:14	[Saint]	I can back my hacky syncing out of my tree now, woo \o/
12:40:55	jhMikeS	yes, unhack and relax
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16:26:56	paulk_	hi! Is it possible to set the recordings' names ? I mean, to choose if it will be named with the date, or with an incrementing number… ?
16:27:35	Torne	doesn't it already use the date on targets with a clock?
16:28:30	Torne	yeah, it uses the date and time if the device has a clock, and an incrementing number if it doesn't
16:28:35	paulk_	It doesn't seem to be the date, I have kind of random numbers. Ex: R_MIC_800723-091847
16:28:46	Torne	that looks like a date to me
16:28:51	Torne	your player's clock is just set wrong
16:29:01	paulk_	yep I just checked, you're right
16:29:04	Torne	that's 23rd june 1980, 09:18:47
16:29:14	Torne	er, july even
16:30:30	paulk_	thanks Torne
16:30:40	Torne	np
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17:12:03	kugel	tmzt: interesting
17:14:26	kugel	tmzt: I was re-doing rockbox' lcd update recently (locally; using SurfaceView), and I'm fairly sure the lcd is already limiting
17:15:19	kugel	I can't seem to get more than 62fps whatsoever
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18:16:00	CIA-70	New commit by moos (r29306): Some languages updates for the upcoming release: ...
18:20:31	CIA-70	r29306 build result: All green
18:20:55	CIA-70	New commit by moos (r29307): Czech language: Some minor terminology changes by Marek Salaba FS #11935
18:24:56	CIA-70	r29307 build result: All green
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18:40:22	tmzt	kugel: maybe with skia you could render the rockbox widget/layout system unless the goal is pixel for pixel compatibility with hardware devices
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18:40:56	kugel	what has the widget to do with it?
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18:41:30	kugel	I understood that I could replace the current lcd_update/_rect() with something skia-based, is that right?
18:42:01	tmzt	viewports, I mean. yeah, it looks like you can draw the bitmap using a picture group the way the webview implementation does
18:42:02	kugel	is it an official API (I found no skia headers in the ndk), and does it have advantages?
18:44:05	tmzt	romain said he doesn't think it's in the NDK, right. the headers are used when the browser component is built though there seems to be no reasons a native plugin can't use them possibly optionally. as for advantages, webview seems to be using it for native compositing, text drawing and other things
18:44:13	tmzt	versus just a flat framebuffer
18:45:18	kugel	I don't think I can get rid of the flat framebuffer model, but you can sure interpret it as a (in-memory) bitmap file
18:45:43	kugel	I never managed to get over 62fps using different approaches, so I don't think the (rumored) inefficiency of drawBitmap() is an issue
18:45:55	kugel	(although all my approaches used drawBitmap())
18:45:58	tmzt	http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/webkit.git;a=blob;f=WebKit/android/jni/WebViewCore.cpp
18:46:27	tmzt	http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/webkit.git;a=blob;f=WebKit/android/jni/WebViewCore.cpp;h=6ebf1dfbb8b5e49ec8b76d7fdd0990e309e0cbd8;hb=HEAD
18:46:45	tmzt	is 62fps limiting? you mean for something like mpeg playback or what do you mean
18:47:55	kugel	running test_fps.rock
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18:51:51	kugel	not sure what I should find there
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18:55:36	tmzt	that's the bridge between java and native code to use the skia canvas, the other stuff is in the webkit repo and deals with pictures and things like that which should give you the equivalent of nativebuffer but rendered entirely from c
18:56:01	tmzt	if I get anywhere with a proof of concept I'll let you know
18:56:09	tmzt	have to get back to my other work though
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19:31:34	TheSeven	btw, is there any particular reason that we use bin2c for the bitmaps etc.?
19:32:07	TheSeven	why not generate object files directly using an assembler file containing a label and a ".incbin" directive?
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19:33:32	amiconn	Does that work for non-gnu 'as'?
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19:34:21	amiconn	TheSeven^
19:34:39	TheSeven	do we use non-gnu 'as'?
19:34:58	amiconn	There are not only targets...
19:35:13	amiconn	Building a sim on osx means non-gnu 'as#; for example
19:35:22	amiconn	*as
19:35:34	TheSeven	hm
19:36:43	*	amiconn ran into this with the libdemac mmx asm
19:36:55	amiconn	The assembler on osx didn't like .rept
19:37:25	amiconn	I had to resort to more complex preprocessor macros
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20:10:40	mt	Re: gsoc 2011, how about adding "resuming and completing the wma voice port" as a project ? I'll not have the time to participate as a student this year, neither do I have the time currently to work on it, so I hope we could get someone in gsoc to finish it.
20:10:49	linuxstb	TheSeven: Bitmaps are converted to the target-specific internal Rockbox format (i.e. the format of the lcd framebuffer) - it's not simply bin2c.
20:11:13	linuxstb	mt: Is that an entire project?
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20:13:29	*	linuxstb still wonders why running android/installToolchain.sh is giving "Failed to fetch URL https://dl-ssl.google.com/android/repository/addons_list.xml, reason: Network is unreachable", when the file can be downloaded in curl, wget and firefox...
20:13:35	mt	linuxstb: According to the student's experience with codecs, I think it would fit as an entire project.
20:14:33	linuxstb	mt: Well, IMO it's not something useful enough to give a SoC slot to. Is WMA Voice widely used?
20:15:41	kugel	does that matter?
20:16:35	linuxstb	kugel: Does what matter?
20:16:38	mt	linuxstb: I'm not sure if it's widely used.
20:16:50	kugel	linuxstb: how widely used a format is
20:16:53	*	linuxstb solved his android problem courtesy of http://serk01.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/how-to-solve-network-unreachable-problem-when-installing-the-android-sdk-on-gnulinux/
20:16:54	mt	But we have a whole lot of codecs that aren't
20:17:20	linuxstb	kugel: Yes, I think so. SoC slots are valuable, and IMO we wouldn't want to waste it on a codec nobody uses.
20:17:45	*	gevaerts agrees
20:17:50	linuxstb	Assuming of course there are more worthwhile proposals.
20:18:14	kugel	we can filter out for the slots at a later stage; proposals are IMO unrelated to the number of slots
20:19:13	gevaerts	For GSoC, there's also the bigger picture. Every project we get means some other organisation doesn't get one. If those projects are worthwhile, that's fine
20:19:26	gevaerts	I'm not saying this one isn't good enough
20:19:31	kugel	we've pretty much support all widely used formats, so only rarely used ones are left
20:20:05	linuxstb	kugel: I'm not against it being on the list, but we should prioritise the list of projects in the same way we did last year, and WMA Voice would (IMO) be quite low on that list.
20:20:22	kugel	speaking of codecs, someone should look at FS #11906
20:20:33	S_a_i_n_t	finishing the theme editor could well be an entire project for another student.
20:20:45	S_a_i_n_t	but...do we want entirely new projects?
20:20:54	gevaerts	I just want to point out that GSoC isn't entirely free money to pay people. Hypothetically speaking, having WMA Voice support may mean that someone doesn't get to improve llvm/clang crosscompiler support, which does hurt us
20:21:08	mt	linuxstb: That sounds good. And iirc, we gave back an extra slot last year, right ?
20:21:37	gevaerts	mt: actually, no. Last year we cashed in and got one of the left over slots
20:22:03	linuxstb	What was our success rate last year? I forget how many projects we even started with...
20:22:10	gevaerts	It's way too early to think about one slot more or less though. We're not selected yet...
20:22:36	gevaerts	linuxstb: we had RaaA, WMA pro, the theme editor, and TTS
20:23:08	kugel	don't we need at least a few proposals (good or bad ones) to get even accepted?
20:23:27	gevaerts	we need well worked out ideas, yes
20:23:27	S_a_i_n_t	afaik.
20:23:51	gevaerts	And a nice bit of text that scorche\|sh usually provides
20:23:57	gevaerts	And luck
20:25:21	gevaerts	I mean, there are many more organisations that want to participate than are chosen every year. We've been in there for four years now, so it's not impossible that they decide that it's time for us to sit out a session
20:26:40	kugel	not this year hopefully, they're boosting the number of organizations and students
20:27:08	gevaerts	We'll see
20:27:21	gevaerts	I'd say never hopefully :)
20:27:33	mt	And also, there are not that many projects that compete with Rockbox in the same category. (At least it faces less competition than, say, a CMS)
20:27:56	gevaerts	mt: yes, but on the other hand it's not very clear how much impact we have
20:28:30	gevaerts	Which is (partly) why the Swedes changed some stuff to make it easier to get download numbers
20:29:14	kugel	we were on LWN!
20:30:10	mt	And FLOSS weekly ;)
20:30:34	gevaerts	Yes, but so are all other oranisations that want a slot!
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20:51:42	linuxstb	mt: So to answer your question, maybe add it under "Secondary project ideas" ?
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20:53:36	*	gevaerts doesn't like "Secondary project ideas"
20:54:27	mt	linuxstb: Sounds good.
20:54:36	linuxstb	gevaerts: What would you suggest? I think I wrote that last year - the idea is that we have projects we really want (primary), and then the others...
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20:55:53	mt	gevaerts: I don't think we should drop it altogether. It's nice to have some sort of prioritization imho.
20:58:06	gevaerts	I think we want to find a proper match between students and projects. If someone wants to work on something but picks something else because the first choice is "secondary", I fear we seriously increase the risk of failure
20:59:10	gevaerts	And history tells me that we don't have many more serious proposals than slots usually, so the ranking doesn't make much of a difference anyway
20:59:18	linuxstb	gevaerts: But it's a balance - do we want a really good student to work on a useless project? Shouldn't we push students towards what we want them to do?
20:59:41	gevaerts	linuxstb: if it's a useless project, why is it on that page?
20:59:52	linuxstb	Yes, maybe "useless" is the wrong word.
21:00
21:00:00	kugel	placeholder? :)
21:00:28	kugel	OTOH we probably also don't want not-yet-so-strong students to work on very tough projects
21:01:03	gevaerts	Also, we're never going to fully agree on what the "important" projects are anyway
21:02:33	linuxstb	gevaerts: Maybe we should remove the distinction for now - we can think about it more closer to the time, once we have a fuller list of projects.
21:02:41	gevaerts	Good idea
21:02:51	Llorean	I think the best thing is to just go with the projects we feel the students are most likely to complete. That's a factor of student ability and student interest in the project.
21:02:59	mt	OK, how about, we don't differentiate ideas on the wiki. Students are expected to discuss an idea before applying, so we would know what a student's first choice is. If they chose an idea that we agreed to be low-priority, they are infromed so that theycan apply to other projects.
21:03:10	Llorean	While it'd be nice to push them toward projects we want more, an un-done project we wanted is still less than a finished project we wanted less.
21:04:41	mt	s/projects/orgs
21:04:53	Llorean	I think we should ask students to tell us all projects they're interested in, and rate their level of interest and how well they think they could accomplish them. Then perhaps write proposals for the two they think would be both most useful to Rockbox and most within their interest/ability
21:05:11	gevaerts	mt: that assumes we can agree on which ones are low priority :)
21:05:21	Llorean	Rather than us telling them how useful it is, we let them decide which they think are important, and we can then see what we've got when it comes down to assigning slots. Any pressure from us, in any way, probably reduces our odds of getting a finished task
21:06:17	gevaerts	Llorean: yes, I agree
21:06:42	gevaerts	Anyway, let's add ideas first, and then see if we need some sort of separation
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21:07:18	Llorean	I can agree with that.
21:08:29	mt	gevaerts: What's the problem with that assumption ? Even I know that my proposed idea is not a high-priority one for example. :) (And I don't see opposing opinions)
21:08:53	gevaerts	mt: do you want just one secondary idea? :)
21:09:49	Llorean	mt: Even if it's not high priority, if a really talented student is interested in the project, saying it's "low priority" may discourage them from even applying, if they think it'll reduce their chances of getting accepted.
21:10:01	Llorean	One of the goals of GSoC isn't just code, but getting new people involved with the projects.
21:10:11	Llorean	any task, low or high priority, can do that.
21:12:09	kugel	isn't that even the main goal? getting young people into FOSS?
21:12:40	mt	Alright I'm convinced. So the question now is, does everyone else agree that it's a good/useful enough idea to put there or not ?
21:13:27	kugel	fine with me
21:13:28	gevaerts	mt: at this point, yes. I suspect we'll have some sort of meeting to go over the list just before finalising our application anyway
21:13:57	kugel	when is that due?
21:14:23	gevaerts	March 11 at the latest
21:14:35	kugel	IMO the multiple/relocatable plugins and buflib projects from GSoC2010 should be put there also
21:14:50	gevaerts	We can begin applying on February 28
21:15:01	gevaerts	I'd like to have a decent list two weeks from now
21:15:17	gevaerts	kugel: I moved the plugin one a few minutes ago
21:16:05	gevaerts	My personal rule is that I only move things over that I understand well enough :)
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21:17:23	Llorean	It might be worth splitting the page into "project ideas" and "areas of interest." For example, something like "further RaaA improvements" is something we'd probably like, but it'd be up to the student to flesh that out into a proposal.
21:17:46	*	gevaerts nods
21:17:56	kugel	unionfs would be nice too, especially for RaaA
21:18:23	Llorean	kugel: And MicroSD targets, I'd imagine.
21:18:38	gevaerts	kugel: how much work is unionfs?
21:18:48	kugel	don't know
21:19:00	gevaerts	I'm not convinced it's eleven weels
21:19:03	gevaerts	*weeks
21:19:09	Llorean	gevaerts: If it's not much on its own, altering Rockbox's UI to interact with it well for copy/paste, new file creation, etc can fill that out a lot.
21:19:19	kugel	but it would allow the show the themes/fonts/etc from two different folders in browse themes/fonts/etc
21:19:42	kugel	gevaerts: no idea really, I just saw it on the 2010 page
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21:20:13	itcheg	I have rockbox installed on an Ipod video it got corrupted so I reinstalled and now got corrupted again
21:20:33	kugel	standalone playback core (perhaps even functional in a preemption-based environment) would be nice too
21:20:34	itcheg	I guess this sounds like a bad disk, but when I try to format it tells me write protected
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21:20:52	saratoga	we've already got a long list of possible codec projects, add voice to the list, and suggest that it be combined with something else
21:21:28	itcheg	I don't care for Apple install, suggestion on how to format?
21:22:14	linuxstb	itcheg: You have to follow Apple's formatting - Rockbox doesn't replace Apple's bootloader (stored in flash ROM), so the ipod needs to have the expected structure.
21:22:36	saratoga	if its just a corrupted file system, i think a windows format will work as well
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21:26:01	mt	saratoga: Do you think it would be feasible to have the Voice decoder and encoder combined with something else from that list ? (I'm not sure how much work would be needed for the encoder)
21:26:23	saratoga	depending how skilled someone is
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21:26:39	saratoga	though i'm not sure how hard voice is to make fixed point
21:27:04	saratoga	since its already ported to rockbox its probably not too hard to someone whos done fixed point before
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21:29:33	itcheg	so when I boot to apple it says restore with itunes. Any way to acomplish this with out the dreaded itunes?
21:29:42	mt	saratoga, I don't think it would be hard to convert it to fixed point, but I believe it would probably need more work/time than the other codecs.
21:30:01	Torne	itcheg: the best way is to use itunes
21:30:11	Torne	it's much easier and much more likely to do it exactly right :)
21:30:41	itcheg	torne I was hoping that wasn't the answer
21:30:57	itcheg	don't really want to install itunes on my machine
21:31:10	Torne	There is a manual restore process but the instructions are written for linux/mac and they require a reasonably high level of comfort with the command line
21:31:17	Torne	And it doesn't always seem to work perfectly
21:31:31	Torne	use someone else's computer then :)
21:32:16	itcheg	hmm I'm "ok" with command line but not really a linux person
21:32:39	mt	saratoga, I'll add it to the codec list anyway. I wouldn't mind if a student finishes this and other stuff from that list. :)
21:32:49	gevaerts	itcheg: which ipod exactly is it?
21:36:47	itcheg	gavaerts ipod video 80gb
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21:38:53	gevaerts	itcheg: in that case I think you really should try to find an itunes installation. The 80gb is the one where the "doesn't always seem to work perfectly" Torne mentioned is most common
21:39:07	gevaerts	If you really want to try to do it manually, have a look at http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodManualRestore
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21:39:27	*	kugel added standalone playback app
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21:39:38	gevaerts	If you don't fully understand what all of those steps do, don't touch it
21:40:01	gevaerts	kugel: once would have been enough :)
21:40:05	itcheg	ok thnx guys will find someone who has itunes
21:40:19	itcheg	rockbox is awsome btw, thanks!
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21:41:20	mt	gevaerts: The conflicts are my fault I think. I'm working on it.
21:41:33	kugel	gevaerts: once?
21:41:56	CIA-70	New commit by learman (r29308): Update Swedish translation.
21:42:03	gevaerts	kugel: "Standalone playback core/library" currently appears twice
21:42:04	kugel	gevaerts: hmm, the wiki told me that my changes clashed with mt's. the diff said my changes did not come through
21:42:16	kugel	unless I misinterpreted the diff
21:42:18	*	gevaerts lets kugel and mt work it out
21:42:50	*	kugel sees CONFLICTs at the bottom of the page
21:42:56	mt	gevaerts, kugel : The wiki told me my changes clashed with gevaerts' :-)
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21:43:22	kugel	concurrent access is nasty!
21:44:31	gevaerts	kugel: I'd also reword that a bit. While a "standalone application to run on a PC" is nice, a set of libraries with clear APIs that can be used both in rockbox and externally (e.g. for debugging or testing) is more what we actually want (and includes this standalone application)
21:44:57	kugel	feel free to improve :)
21:45:10	gevaerts	Well, only if you agree :)
21:45:17	kugel	I do for sure :)
21:45:27		Quit itcheg (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
21:45:27	gevaerts	And only if you and mt agree that the page is ready to extend again
21:45:58	CIA-70	r29308 build result: All green
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21:46:21	kugel	I'll leave it for you :p
21:47:46	kugel	I think the playback app is a tough task, it also (indirectly) involves messing the metadata parsers
21:48:12	mt	kugel, gevaerts : I think the page is fine now.
21:48:21	gevaerts	kugel: It involves messing with everything
21:48:50	gevaerts	Only for people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty I'd say
21:49:03	saratoga	this is using the codecs externally?
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21:52:49	gevaerts	kugel: can you review my changes?
21:53:05	gevaerts	saratoga: ideally that would be part of it
21:53:27	saratoga	cutting out codecs and metadata is actually pretty easy i think
21:53:42	saratoga	test_codec more or less does all the buffering, so really you just need to add a wrapper for metadata
21:53:51	gevaerts	I'd like to see clearly separated modules with clear APIs
21:53:52	saratoga	and some makefile nonsense
21:54:00	saratoga	yes designing the APIs is not so simple
21:54:18	saratoga	an ffmpeg wrapper might be really useful too
21:54:41	kugel	gevaerts: loks good to me
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21:55:30	kugel	saratoga: I think adopting to standard (or de-facto) APIs is very useful, it has helped on RaaA
21:55:37	gevaerts	saratoga: wrappers for all sorts of things are useful, but unless we really spend time and effort on cleaning up the APIs, those wrappers won't be very clean
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21:56:21	gevaerts	The way checkwps and the database tool tend to break quite often clearly shows that
21:56:21	kugel	we probably also want a pthread-like thread API if we ever get serious about rockbox-within-preemtive-threads
21:57:26	gevaerts	kugel: that's a different project I'd say. One that still needs a consensus :)
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22:30:49	linuxstb	saratoga: What do you see an ffmpeg wrapper being useful for?
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22:40:38	linuxstb	gevaerts: What flaws does the playback core have (reading your SoC2011 description) ?
22:41:41	gevaerts	linuxstb: I didn't add that particular bit :)
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22:42:44	*	linuxstb curses flyspray and thinks he should direct that to kugel.. ?
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22:46:16	kugel	linuxstb: there've been always some glitches
22:47:15	kugel	one I can name is that very fast track skipping (especially in the playlist viewer) often locks up playback
22:47:19	prg318	If I wipe my iPod (video 30gb) and install rockbox; is there any way I can restore iPod software at some point? i mean without dual booting
22:48:35		Quit GeekShadow (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
22:48:51	linuxstb	prg318: You don't wipe your ipod to install Rockbox. Rockbox needs to be added to a working ipod, and doesn't involve deleting anything. (assuming it's a windows-formatted ipod - Mac ipods need converting to windows format)
22:49:55		Quit kevku (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
22:50:22	prg318	linuxstb: thanks. i think i might go with rockbox on my iPod; it'll also give me something to hack around with.. i submitted some patches a couple years back, but I had stopped using rockbox when my ipod failed :x
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23:00
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23:06:50	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:08:39		Quit mystica555 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
23:09:32	saratoga	linuxstb: various projects who use ffmpeg on ARM
23:10:19		Join slooopy [0] (~sloo@p5493D92D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:12:34	linuxstb	saratoga: I'm not sure what you're suggesting. A wrapper to use ffmpeg in Rockbox, a wrapper to use Rockbox codecs in ffmpeg, or something else?
23:13:14		Join mystica555 [0] (~mike@c-76-25-6-80.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
23:13:15	saratoga	linuxstb: a way to compile rockbox codecs so that they can be accessed via libavcodec
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23:15:42	BRi7X	howdy guys, I got rockbox working on the iPhone 3G!
23:15:49		Quit leavittx (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
23:16:35	evilnick_B	BRi7X: Did you?
23:16:58	BRi7X	yeah, though now i'm kind of stuck in the fft plugin >_<
23:17:04	BRi7X	but yeah
23:17:39	evilnick_B	Can you do a hard reset and take a screenshot?
23:18:33		Quit T44 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:19:54	BRi7X	hrmm i could try... it was pretty simple actually. i have idroid on the iphone, then i ran the rockbox app. it was hard getting off the ground, but it works, and it really does play music flawlessly.
23:20:15	evilnick_B	Ah, not natively, rightydokey
23:20:30	BRi7X	yeah not natively. but it's still rockbox on an iphone haha
23:21:02	*	evilnick_B can't help but laugh even though he'd personally kill* for RB on the iPhone 4
23:21:17	BRi7X	lol natively?
23:21:26	evilnick_B	* = Actual killing may vary
23:21:41		Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
23:21:59	evilnick_B	I still dream about it one day coming to pass, then I could rid myself of iTunes to manage music
23:22:09	evilnick_B	Until then, though, I shall wait.
23:22:16	BRi7X	i was going crazy trying to find where the hell itunes put all the music on here, but database found it all very quickly. even found songs i had no idea were on the device
23:24:36	BRi7X	do you have an iPhone 4?
23:25:20	evilnick_B	Yes, but this is getting offtopic (though I started it) so join #rockbox-community if you like
23:26:48	BRi7X	well i was about to steer it back on topic... if you have it, and it's jailbroken, throw on iDroid and test out rockbox.apk...
23:27:30	kugel	BRi7X: you might be the very first one to run rockbox on an iphone, good job :)
23:27:33	gevaerts	Seriously, running android on an iphone in order to run rockbox is silly
23:27:46	*	evilnick_B wasn't aware that the ip4 could use iDroid
23:27:54	Battousai	just silly enough to work
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