| 00:06:51 | | Join sirrozha [0] (sirrozha@89.23.217.205) |
| 00:07:34 | sirrozha | hi guys, i’ve got an iPod Classic 160 GB and it’s fat, is there an inctruction how to get a rockbox? thx |
| 00:09:16 | bluebroth3r | sirrozha: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodClassicPort |
| 00:10:37 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:11:07 | sirrozha | thank you |
| 00:11:23 | | Quit pamaury (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:13:07 | | Quit evilnick_B (Quit: Page closed) |
| 00:13:13 | sirrozha | i’ve read that already, everything seems to be messy, so I don’t understand clearly if I should do that. anybody here dot rockbox on 160Gb classic? |
| 00:15:07 | sideral | gevaerts: Anyway, the reason I was asking was that I'm playing with an fsck plugin |
| 00:15:20 | gevaerts | sideral: ah, fun |
| 00:15:31 | sideral | derived from dosfstools, which went GPL3 three years ago |
| 00:15:51 | gevaerts | Right. That's more and more of an issue every week |
| 00:16:07 | gevaerts | I'd say we need to discuss this again at devcon |
| 00:16:24 | sideral | But maybe I should just switch to NetBSD's fsck_msdos before I even get to compiling it :) |
| 00:16:49 | gevaerts | Or dosbox+chkdsk :) |
| 00:17:02 | * | gevaerts always tries to find the best solution |
| 00:17:19 | sideral | Does the latest DOS support FAT32? |
| 00:17:28 | gevaerts | no idea |
| 00:17:51 | sideral | :) |
| 00:18:28 | * | gevaerts has never been much of a DOS user |
| 00:18:50 | B4gder | we currently have two devcon dates where all currently signed up people can |
| 00:19:19 | sideral | Me neither, but my old Atari ST used an MS-DOS-like filesystem as well |
| 00:19:30 | gevaerts | Yes, but not nearly enough names yet I'd say |
| 00:19:56 | B4gder | right |
| 00:23:11 | | Join saratoga [0] (600afc5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.10.252.95) |
| 00:23:27 | | Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 00:24:27 | sideral | Hi saratoga, could you have a look at FS #11891 (MP3 gap killer)? I remember you having a strong opinion on whether MP3 gap skipping should be optional or not... I'd like to resolve this to make this patch fit for eventual inclusion |
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| 00:29:29 | | Quit ender` (Quit: The likelihood of Perl being involved in a system is directly proportional to the length of time the system has been in maintenance.) |
| 00:29:41 | saratoga | sideral: the arguments over this patch in IRC and the tracker have convinced me that Buschel is probably the only one here who really understands exactly how this works, so I think that expecting users to make an informed decision about it is insane |
| 00:30:51 | sideral | saratoga: Hmm... users can decide between "I don't wanna lose audio under any circumstance −− disable" and "I don't want avoidable gaps −− enable" |
| 00:31:05 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 00:31:22 | sideral | There is a very direct effect that users experience. |
| 00:31:30 | saratoga | they're introducing error either way though, and if you don't understand why, you can't make an informed decision about which is better for your needs |
| 00:32:10 | sideral | ??? sure I can, even as a total novice |
| 00:32:38 | sideral | it's a tradeoff between two bad things. they aren't equally bad for gevaerts and me, for example |
| 00:33:37 | saratoga | i am unconvinced |
| 00:34:08 | | Quit DerPapst (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 00:34:19 | saratoga | the fact that the last time we brought this up involved me arguing about how the filterbank worked for more then an hour does not fill me with confidence that regular users will understand |
| 00:34:58 | sideral | I think it's a useful feature for some, even without understanding anything about MP3 encoding works, which is why this should be an option. |
| 00:35:17 | sideral | The effect is very noticable, and that's what users can use to base their decision on |
| 00:36:03 | saratoga | thats an equally strong argument for having it set to "always on" with no run time option though |
| 00:36:21 | gevaerts | How? |
| 00:36:24 | sideral | I don't think so. |
| 00:36:33 | gevaerts | If the effect is noticeable, it's noticeable both ways |
| 00:36:49 | saratoga | yes but in the negative it would be noticable because the gap is present |
| 00:36:57 | saratoga | and the gap is an error right? |
| 00:37:02 | gevaerts | no |
| 00:37:05 | gevaerts | It *can* be |
| 00:37:14 | saratoga | if this is off, it has to be |
| 00:37:33 | saratoga | you need gapless info to get the gap length right |
| 00:37:39 | saratoga | so without it, you're going to have an error |
| 00:38:15 | sideral | there's always some small error, yes. but it's preferable to some to cutting a bit of audio |
| 00:38:29 | | Join enthdegree [0] (~enthdegre@cpe-024-211-171-023.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 00:38:32 | sideral | which I think we must respect |
| 00:38:42 | enthdegree | I agree. |
| 00:38:43 | saratoga | i'm not sure i really agree with that |
| 00:38:56 | saratoga | how much real audio, and at what intensity would you be losing? |
| 00:39:17 | saratoga | wouldn't it have to be around -96 dB down? e.g. below the noise floor of all rockbox devices? |
| 00:40:42 | gevaerts | That's still audio |
| 00:40:47 | sideral | saratoga: That I can't answer. But from Buschel's comments I gather that it can be noticable because it's hard to define the threshold _exactly_ right. It might even depend on the particular track |
| 00:40:47 | kugel | B4gder: I see no page to sign up |
| 00:41:30 | saratoga | gevaerts: no thats theory, its not audio until someone does an ABX test or similar and shows that they can hear it |
| 00:41:49 | kugel | where is the devcon 2011 page? |
| 00:42:02 | gevaerts | kugel: see the email |
| 00:42:20 | sideral | saratoga: I understand that if you set the threshold this low, you may still get some noticable piece of silence that you don't want when the feature is enabled |
| 00:42:37 | kugel | why don't we have a wiki page as every year? |
| 00:43:03 | * | gevaerts still doesn't see why fixing those broken files is not an option |
| 00:43:39 | kugel | I suspect this page, only publizied via ml is surprising/unseen for many |
| 00:43:45 | sideral | gevaerts: Because you may not have access to the source. For example, I have purchased misencoded MP3s at Amazon |
| 00:44:00 | gevaerts | sideral: adding a tag does not require that source |
| 00:44:19 | gevaerts | And that's *all* you need |
| 00:44:22 | Llorean | sideral: The tag can be added with the same logic you'd be applying realtime, couldn't it? |
| 00:44:27 | sideral | I see what you mean |
| 00:44:34 | kugel | I would certainly prefer early june, my internship is starting mid/late june |
| 00:44:41 | saratoga | as I said the last time we argued about this, unless you have access to the lossless source (in which case this whole problem is moot), then fixing the tags is not a good solution since it will generate files with gapless tags that probably do not have the exact right number of samples |
| 00:45:15 | Llorean | saratoga: In what way is "tags that aren't entirely accurate" worse than dropping the same data without tags telling you to? |
| 00:45:16 | sideral | But I'd strongly prefer an option that does this in real time, purely for convenience. |
| 00:45:25 | saratoga | http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20110211#22:13:39 |
| 00:45:30 | gevaerts | saratoga: if the detection is good enough to force on everybody without an option, it's *also* good enough for a tag |
| 00:45:42 | saratoga | no its not because it misleads the user |
| 00:45:49 | gevaerts | You can't have it both ways |
| 00:45:51 | saratoga | if you know theres no gapless info, you know theres something wrong |
| 00:46:05 | saratoga | if you have a made up gapless tag, you have *no idea* what happened to the file |
| 00:46:37 | Llorean | Wouldn't it be an explicit tool? |
| 00:46:43 | Llorean | Is this "users may forget they added the tag"? |
| 00:47:04 | saratoga | or share them with others |
| 00:47:23 | saratoga | if i download a file off amazonmp3 i'd like to know that the gapless tags aren't estimated |
| 00:47:49 | gevaerts | But when you listen to it, you don't care? |
| 00:48:05 | saratoga | what do you mean? |
| 00:48:35 | gevaerts | You're claiming that the detection is good enough to be used unconditionally |
| 00:48:48 | saratoga | yes |
| 00:48:51 | gevaerts | Which implies it's good enough to *never* be noticeable |
| 00:48:54 | saratoga | no |
| 00:49:11 | gevaerts | Then how can it be good enough to be used unconditionally? |
| 00:49:14 | saratoga | first of all, noticable? |
| 00:49:18 | saratoga | without access to the lossless source, it would of course be impossible for me to determine if the file is incorrect |
| 00:49:25 | saratoga | so what is there for me to notice in the amazon case |
| 00:49:40 | sideral | I think asking users to jump through hoops when we can do it on the fly is not the right way. With this argument, we'd have to eliminate all kinds of audio processing |
| 00:50:29 | saratoga | you can only determine audibility by comparison to lossless |
| 00:50:38 | gevaerts | If you can guarantee that the code will *never* cause anyone to notice that his files are now not playing back as intended, then it can be enabled unconditionally. If not, you're *deliberately* crippling someone's audio playback |
| 00:51:30 | saratoga | what i am claiming is that essentially everyone who has argued with me here is completely unqualified to determine the correct setting for that switch on a per file basis, and so there should be no such switch |
| 00:52:21 | gevaerts | Right. I'm not saying there should be a switch |
| 00:52:33 | kugel | we also have embedded aa, where you could also argue to "fix" the file with an external tool |
| 00:52:41 | saratoga | with regards to errors, I think its extremely unlikely anyone will notice them |
| 00:52:42 | gevaerts | I'm only saying that if there is code to decide what I hear, it should not be unconditional |
| 00:52:48 | kugel | of course this gap skip thing is just as well solely for user convinience |
| 00:53:20 | saratoga | thats a dumb argument though since by that logic everything should be configurable |
| 00:53:29 | saratoga | the DSP engine makes thousands of assumptions |
| 00:53:41 | saratoga | why not let the user pick all of them! |
| 00:53:55 | saratoga | because only options where the user is informed enough to pick better then the computer should exist |
| 00:54:13 | sideral | or where it's just a matter of preference |
| 00:54:17 | saratoga | and this is not one of those times as evidenced by the endless arguments and continued misconceptions here and in the previous IRC logs |
| 00:54:34 | saratoga | preference in audio is just another word for ignorance |
| 00:54:48 | saratoga | people prefer something when they don't know which is actually better |
| 00:55:16 | Llorean | saratoga: Do we really have features that throw away audio data, cannot be disabled, and aren't simply a part of the actual codec spec/definition? |
| 00:55:42 | saratoga | pretty much every DSP operation alters the energy content of a waveform, some a lot more then errors here would |
| 00:56:02 | saratoga | hell in some cases we even have different algorithms with different trade offs in rockbox |
| 00:56:24 | saratoga | would you prefer to let the user decide on which mp3 filterbank is used (once I get the new one finished)? |
| 00:56:30 | kugel | dsp can be disabled |
| 00:56:33 | gevaerts | How many of those DSP assumptions are there *explicitely* to fix *broken* files? |
| 00:57:34 | kugel | I would like to see this patch in, with or without option (but I would prefer the non-option way) |
| 00:57:51 | saratoga | not so much broken (since the spec doesn't mention gapless), but maybe inexact? |
| 00:58:00 | gevaerts | Same thing |
| 00:58:16 | gevaerts | They are broken since all decent encoders support adding tags |
| 00:58:37 | saratoga | IMO if the spec doesn't say what to do, its ok for us to pick the least stupid option |
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| 00:59:19 | saratoga | i mean this whole argument is so ridiculous just because we're talking about time scales that don't even really have physical meaning to the codec |
| 00:59:23 | gevaerts | Right. And that is to not risk breaking people's audio unconditionally |
| 00:59:27 | | Part toffe82_ |
| 00:59:37 | saratoga | what is accuracy supposed to mean when the error in question is less then an instant |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:07 | saratoga | honestly i'm not even convinced you'd have a situation where this would break a file |
| 01:00:11 | saratoga | although i suppose it depends on how good your definition of "break" is |
| 01:00:18 | sideral | saratoga: this less than an instant is clearly audible when you turn the feature off |
| 01:00:30 | saratoga | its only audiable though because of the discontinuity! |
| 01:00:33 | saratoga | you can't hear the gap |
| 01:00:42 | saratoga | you hear the jump from 0 amplitude to >0 amplitude |
| 01:00:43 | sideral | yes you can |
| 01:00:53 | gevaerts | You are claiming that the discontinuity is *always* unintentional |
| 01:01:03 | gevaerts | Prove it |
| 01:01:05 | saratoga | huh |
| 01:01:29 | sideral | my impression is that there's an audible gap |
| 01:01:39 | sideral | that is elided by this feature |
| 01:01:59 | kugel | I also think that discontinuity within such a tiny time frame and at the very beginning or end of a song is always unintentional |
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| 01:02:50 | kugel | I want to see a song author that says "this tiny gap which sounds bad in track transitions make my song unique!" |
| 01:02:51 | saratoga | sideral: you can't hear a gap of a couple milliseconds, you hear the fourier components of the square wave generated when you go from >0, to 0, and then >0 in a couple samples |
| 01:03:07 | saratoga | if you smoothed the transition you'd never hear anything |
| 01:03:19 | saratoga | even though the lenght would be wrong |
| 01:03:45 | gevaerts | If you can't hear it, what does this feature do? |
| 01:03:47 | sideral | maybe |
| 01:04:00 | saratoga | gevaerts: I think you misunderstand |
| 01:04:02 | | Quit rasher (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 01:04:05 | gevaerts | Either you're lying, or you're hiding behind technicalities |
| 01:04:30 | kugel | you don't hear the gap of silence, you hear what fourier does with that gap |
| 01:05:05 | sideral | gevaerts: saratoga claims you hear a click rather than a gap. |
| 01:05:13 | gevaerts | Is that relevant? |
| 01:05:18 | sideral | anyway, the feature elides it |
| 01:05:19 | saratoga | gevaerts: this is the same idea you argued about last time where you could have the right number of samples but still hear a gap if the amplitude wasn't continuous |
| 01:05:56 | saratoga | well its relevant because it means that its very hard to hear when this patch gets it wrong |
| 01:06:08 | gevaerts | How is that? |
| 01:06:31 | saratoga | because in the wrong case you either make things no worse (take too little, leave the gap), or take too much (delete the gap and introduce an inaudible loss of a millisecond or so of audio) |
| 01:06:48 | kugel | if the last couple of frames/samples are all silent that you don't hear the difference because there's no discontinuity |
| 01:07:35 | saratoga | which is why this is such an insane argument |
| 01:08:04 | gevaerts | Right. You're claiming again that a milisecond difference doesn't matter if *you* don't want it to (without *any* argument), but it *does* matter if you want it to |
| 01:08:06 | saratoga | i'm not even convinced you could ABX this in a lab with custom designed samples, and we're arguing about real music on low quality mp3 files from 1998! |
| 01:08:13 | gevaerts | Which is ridiculous |
| 01:08:34 | gevaerts | *fix* *the* *files* *then* |
| 01:08:46 | sideral | saratoga: Even if you manage to convince gevaerts and Buschel, politically it would be wise to have a knob (or even a dial to define the threshold) so that people can experiment with their own expectations |
| 01:09:06 | saratoga | ugh no |
| 01:09:28 | saratoga | just set it to be the 17 most significant bit |
| 01:09:34 | saratoga | 17th |
| 01:10:11 | sideral | saratoga: Are you convinced that kills all the relevant gaps? The patch contributor doesn't seem to be... |
| 01:10:27 | saratoga | no it won't, if you want to do that you'd need a real gapkiller |
| 01:10:31 | saratoga | one that tries to remove all silence |
| 01:10:35 | saratoga | this is much less ambitious |
| 01:10:36 | gevaerts | Of course it does! The feature is perfect! |
| 01:10:45 | sideral | no, that's not what I meant with relevant |
| 01:10:57 | saratoga | ah i see |
| 01:11:00 | sideral | I meant only those MP3 encoder/decoder delays |
| 01:11:35 | saratoga | i think its impossible to always get it exactly right for the reason buschel mentioned: the loss of time resolution in the FIR filter, but i think you're unlikely to do much better by tweaking the thresholds |
| 01:12:06 | sideral | the OP thinks otherwise |
| 01:12:18 | saratoga | what are his thresholds? |
| 01:13:03 | saratoga | most generally, I think the idea of getting it "exactly right" doesn't really make sense when you're talking about bits of time less then the impulse response of your filter |
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| 01:13:39 | sideral | There is a 5000000 in the code, but I think it doesn't correspond to PCM values. I don't understand the code enough to tell |
| 01:14:50 | saratoga | isn't that pretty high? |
| 01:14:53 | sideral | He says that the native 16-bit threshold corresponds to 491520 in his scale |
| 01:15:07 | saratoga | oh |
| 01:15:17 | sideral | which is an order of magnitude lower |
| 01:15:29 | sideral | but I don't grok what the scale is |
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| 01:16:13 | saratoga | i'm not 100% sure that makes sense to me (shouldn't he be using the same PCM format as the DSP engine???), but if so that would mean hes clipping way above the noise floor |
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| 01:17:34 | sideral | He seems to think that he needs to clip some near-silence to cut out the waveforms building up towards the first real sample |
| 01:17:36 | | Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 01:17:58 | sideral | It could well be that he's cutting too much. He says he chose the value rather arbitrarily |
| 01:18:22 | saratoga | yeah i think that might cut too much by quite a lot |
| 01:18:29 | sideral | so that it works for his files |
| 01:18:32 | saratoga | but i guess he picked that because it sounded best? |
| 01:19:21 | sideral | guess so. but some fine tuning might still be necessary. anyway, this doesn't appear to be an exact science, giving weight to gevaerts' point |
| 01:20:18 | saratoga | i remember doing this with WMA where i'd plott he waveforms from rockbox vs. the gapless MS decoder and you'd see a slow ring up of a bunch of samples before the audio started, i guess the problem here is that he needs to avoid detecting that |
| 01:20:58 | sideral | yep |
| 01:21:09 | saratoga | well it depends how this is going to work, if we're really going to set it at some rather high threshold and lose substantial numbers of samples, then maybe |
| 01:21:52 | saratoga | i prefer to have a low threshold ( 0 from CD audio) so that we're sure to (never?) take too much |
| 01:22:41 | sideral | I understand the sentiment, but if that doesn't elide the gaps, it would be rather useless |
| 01:22:58 | saratoga | true |
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| 01:23:29 | saratoga | thinking about this more, i guess if you want to configure the threshold like you suggested before, that might make sense if people are going to potentially set very high gaps |
| 01:23:51 | saratoga | i wonder though if just playing it safe and accepting that they'll probably be gaps is the best way to go |
| 01:24:16 | sideral | you mean the status quo? |
| 01:24:23 | saratoga | well not exactly |
| 01:24:30 | saratoga | much smaller gaps, and probably sometimes no gaps |
| 01:24:37 | saratoga | so a little better |
| 01:24:38 | sideral | ah, OK |
| 01:24:56 | saratoga | thats probably my personal preference, not sure if I have a good technical arguement for it |
| 01:25:25 | sideral | but you're not opposed to making this configurable / tunable any longer? |
| 01:25:28 | saratoga | i guess gevaerts suggestion of using something like itunes to add gapless info would also work if people wanted to guess (i think we read itunes info?) |
| 01:26:13 | gevaerts | I seem to remember someone adding that |
| 01:26:36 | saratoga | we should never expose things like how the filterbank padding is handled to users, but thresholds are probably easier to use correctly |
| 01:26:56 | saratoga | although i wonder in this case if it should be a generic DSP option for all codecs |
| 01:27:08 | saratoga | if you're going to let the user fine tune it, why does it have to be MP3 only . . . |
| 01:27:25 | sideral | because it addresses an MP3-specific deficiency? |
| 01:27:38 | sideral | using MP3-specific info |
| 01:27:43 | pixelma | I believe markun added that but I'm not sure if it was enabled for MP3 (for some reason I believe it's currently AAC only but I could be wrong) |
| 01:27:48 | sideral | such as #samples / frame |
| 01:27:55 | gevaerts | There's the current technical limitation that the codec is the only bit that knows how near the track boundaries it is |
| 01:27:59 | saratoga | WMA also has this problem |
| 01:28:20 | gevaerts | r22872 "add gapless support for MP3 files encoded with iTunes" |
| 01:28:37 | saratoga | true, but if the user is expecting the gap to be killed with enough tweaking, they may actually want to remove samples past the frame boundary |
| 01:28:57 | pixelma | ah, ok. Maybe it's even the other way round |
| 01:29:54 | sideral | I think making this more generic is a great idea, but I think you can make good use of the codec info, such as making an assumption on whether the silence is intentional or not based on how far into the track it reaches |
| 01:30:24 | saratoga | does the DSP engine know if the current audio is from a gapless codec? |
| 01:30:29 | | Quit MagusG (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 01:30:58 | gevaerts | I doubt it |
| 01:31:02 | sideral | likely not. but we also don't want to elide too much silence from tracks w/o gapless info |
| 01:31:17 | saratoga | the buffering code does I believe, so maybe its not too hard to expose it |
| 01:31:44 | sideral | that would be a separate generic gap killer feature, which is not what I'm after |
| 01:31:59 | saratoga | i guess i don't mind having a user confirable threshold here, but it seems weird to make it mp3 only |
| 01:32:09 | saratoga | i think most users will understand what its supposed to do |
| 01:32:16 | gevaerts | For a generic implementation we probably want to export whether or not the codec is gapless (which, for mp3, also depends on the tags), how big a possible unintentional gap is, and where the boundaries are |
| 01:32:33 | sideral | right |
| 01:33:21 | | Quit sideral (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:33:41 | gevaerts | I'd guess the buffering code doesn't know *enough*. You don't want to kill gaps if there are lame tags I guess |
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| 01:33:53 | saratoga | the individual codecs of course have that info, so i guess at worst they could tell the buffering engine if its expected to have gaps |
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| 01:34:04 | sideral | I think we can easily make this more generic later on |
| 01:34:17 | sideral | I doesn't hurt to do it for MP3 only first |
| 01:34:36 | sideral | but Llorean already commented that the feature's name should be more generic than "mp3 gap killer" |
| 01:35:03 | saratoga | "remove mp3 silence" |
| 01:35:35 | saratoga | or i guess "mp3 silence removal threshold" |
| 01:35:38 | saratoga | how long can they be? |
| 01:36:05 | sideral | he proposed something along the lines of "attempt gapless playback", without the codec name to be generic |
| 01:36:19 | saratoga | i don't think we should say gapless |
| 01:36:29 | saratoga | its just a threshold we're setting right? |
| 01:37:00 | saratoga | so 'mp3 silence threshold', and (-100dB, 90dB ...) |
| 01:37:25 | sideral | the feature has to be discoverable for users, so mentioning gapless playback would be good |
| 01:37:42 | saratoga | well ideally they don't think they need it to get gapless playback :) |
| 01:38:05 | saratoga | remember this is like 1 mp3 in a hundreds or thousands that needs this |
| 01:38:08 | sideral | "threshold for best-effort gap elision" :P |
| 01:38:30 | saratoga | i'd hate for users to think we don't do lame gapless tags because of this setting |
| 01:38:50 | sideral | I'll think about this some more offline. Need to go to bed now. |
| 01:38:56 | sideral | Thanks for the discussion saratoga! |
| 01:39:10 | saratoga | yeah i'm sick and need to sleep |
| 01:39:27 | sideral | get well soon! |
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| 02:45:08 | [Saint] | JdGordon: kugel: Any idea how this was done? http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,14177.msg178749.html#msg178749 |
| 02:45:13 | | Join avacore [0] (~avacore@1008ds1-rdo.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 02:45:20 | [Saint] | specifically the "swiping for next/prev" |
| 02:46:00 | [Saint] | I have no idea how to do that with a theme...is it something about RaaA I've just failed to notice? |
| 02:47:08 | JdGordon | i highly doubt that works |
| 02:47:16 | JdGordon | more likely he swiped over the next button |
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| 02:47:51 | [Saint] | yeah, I read it and thought..."wow, we can do that!?!" |
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| 04:22:27 | edboyer93 | rockbox isn't detecting my microsd card but the OF does, what could be causing this? |
| 04:27:30 | edboyer93 | oh, i guess I have to install a new build since I am using 3.7.1. To install a new build can i just extract the new one over the one that is already installed? |
| 04:31:08 | krazykit | yes |
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| 04:31:20 | krazykit | it might help to know what device you're using |
| 04:32:18 | edboyer93 | clip+, the only reason I am not using 3.8 is because of that bug where the database gets stuck |
| 04:32:57 | edboyer93 | and corrupts the memory |
| 04:34:51 | edboyer93 | I am going to try the current build i guess\ |
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| 04:53:43 | edboyer93 | I installed the current build and the memory corrupting issue is gone and my microsd card is being shown. |
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| 06:34:01 | [Saint] | JdGordon: Can I put "%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<condition true|false> in a viewport that isn't linked with a touch area identifier...for example, to fire multiple things in different viewports, linked to the one viewport? |
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| 06:34:19 | [Saint] | Let me know if I need to explain that more, that sounds pretty crazy even in my head. |
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| 06:34:36 | JdGordon | of course you can |
| 06:34:51 | JdGordon | all identifiers are global |
| 06:35:02 | [Saint] | then, I shouldn't need vars to fix this theme at all...and I can't believe I didn't see it. |
| 06:35:22 | JdGordon | I tihnk you're wrong :) |
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| 06:41:23 | [Saint] | can I do "%?C<%Vd(a)%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<|%Vd(b)>|%Vd(c)%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<|%Vd(d)>>" ? |
| 06:42:04 | [Saint] | as, iiuc....that should fix the issue with viewports being displayed over other viewports,. |
| 06:42:32 | JdGordon | probably |
| 06:42:40 | JdGordon | i have no idea what thats supposed to do though :) |
| 06:42:45 | JdGordon | ECANTREADSKINCODE |
| 06:44:31 | [Saint] | the popup tab is "identifier" here, and that fires the popup viewport when it's true...seeing as the check to see if a specific touch area was fired...I figured, can't we check if that identifier is true elsewhere, and use that as a condition? |
| 06:44:48 | [Saint] | firing the track info viewports only when it's false would fix this. |
| 06:45:31 | JdGordon | yeah but that wont really work |
| 06:45:33 | [Saint] | It works in my head ;) |
| 06:45:51 | [Saint] | why won't it work? |
| 06:45:56 | JdGordon | lets say your timeout is 15s... you have to keep checking all the buttons seperately to make sure it doesnt disappear |
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| 06:48:36 | [Saint] | I can't figure out why the slider isn't drawn though. |
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| 06:49:00 | [Saint] | that sucks...I can't see anything wrong with that. When the viewport fires, it should "just work". |
| 06:49:42 | [Saint] | It's not doing anything fancy...it's just a viewport with a volumebar and a slider. neither the bar or the slider is drawn. |
| 06:49:53 | JdGordon | the viewport image is breaking it |
| 06:50:08 | JdGordon | it gets redrawn every viewport update |
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| 06:50:58 | [Saint] | Hmmm....I think I might have just figured out a *real* hack way to do it. |
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| 06:51:54 | [Saint] | (using the entire popup viewport as the volume slider, and using the background param) |
| 06:52:06 | JdGordon | thats what i said to do 2 days ago! |
| 06:52:30 | [Saint] | it's too ugly...it should "just work" the way I coded it. |
| 06:52:47 | [Saint] | despite what you might think, I don't *like* ugly hacks in my themes ;) |
| 06:53:05 | JdGordon | why would you think I think you do? |
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| 06:53:58 | [Saint] | You've commented on some of my solutions for certain things before now. |
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| 06:57:51 | S_a_i_n_t | The only reason it's ugly is because that means the volume slider needs to be the exact dimensions of the popup viewport...which is something I don't actually want. |
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| 06:58:47 | S_a_i_n_t | I can (or should be able to) keep the look as it is now, but have the actual volume area be bigger than the image portrays it to be...*that*s the part I think is a bit of a hack. |
| 06:59:25 | JdGordon | pardon? |
| 06:59:39 | JdGordon | oh the slider will be the whole width? |
| 06:59:51 | S_a_i_n_t | yes...it's the only way I can do it. |
| 07:00 |
| 07:00:07 | S_a_i_n_t | but I can do the image so it doesn't *look* like it is. |
| 07:00:08 | JdGordon | you could add two filler images on the sides to not do that |
| 07:00:20 | S_a_i_n_t | Hmmm...yeah, I could. |
| 07:01:11 | S_a_i_n_t | I suppose I could just load 4 filler images, top bottom and sides instead of a backdrop. |
| 07:01:21 | S_a_i_n_t | that'd work no? |
| 07:02:02 | JdGordon | sure |
| 07:02:47 | S_a_i_n_t | right...sweet. One problem down then. Just the conditional viewport switching to go. I'll let you know if I run into trouble there. |
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| 07:12:22 | S_a_i_n_t | JdGordon: Actually...I think I can do it with a transparent panel in the backdrop image. |
| 07:12:40 | JdGordon | maybe.... |
| 07:12:48 | JdGordon | that uises more skin buffer thouhg |
| 07:12:51 | S_a_i_n_t | so that way it won't matter if it'd drawn over the slider, you'll still see it. Seems more sensible than splitting the image. |
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| 07:40:07 | S_a_i_n_t | JdGordon: is %pv(10,31,178,18,VOLUMEBAR-240x320x16.bmp,backdrop,K,slider,L) correct if I want the both of them? |
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| 07:57:50 | S_a_i_n_t | AlexP: Zagor: kugel_: JdGordon: pixelma: Llorean: |
| 07:58:53 | S_a_i_n_t | play/pause/stop in the middle, prev/rewind next/fastforward to the left and right of it respectively....shuffle on the left and repeat on the right, or vice versa , repeat on the left and shuffle on the right? |
| 07:59:47 | S_a_i_n_t | repeat far left and shuffle far right....just because it's alphabetical? ;) |
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| 08:00:42 | S_a_i_n_t | shuffle is used more often, more people are right handed...it would be more accessable on the far left and repeat on the far right...for ergonomics? |
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| 08:01:23 | * | S_a_i_n_t dislikes issues like this, so opts to let others decide. |
| 08:01:23 | Llorean | I would think being right handed what's on the right is more accessible (to your right thumb)? |
| 08:01:32 | S_a_i_n_t | gevaerts: Torne: ^ |
| 08:01:36 | Llorean | I hold my gadget in my primary hand if it's just something like track skipping / volume adjust / whatever |
| 08:02:01 | Llorean | In fact, what I'd do is have the shuffle/repeat option on the left, since I almost never use them, then back/pause/forward on the right so they're easier to use onehanded |
| 08:02:12 | S_a_i_n_t | Llorean: my right thumb reaches the left side of my handset more easily. |
| 08:02:20 | Llorean | Since skip-forward is probably the most-pressed (for me) I'd want it at the edge of the screen and easy to use with my primary thumb |
| 08:02:25 | Llorean | I'm a lefty, so that can't happen, but... y'know. |
| 08:02:26 | S_a_i_n_t | the left themb the right side more easily in turn. |
| 08:02:34 | S_a_i_n_t | *thumb |
| 08:02:51 | Llorean | I find reaching across the handset makes it more likely to register accidental presses, and I can reach the near side quite easily |
| 08:03:01 | Llorean | Then again, my screen seems *really* sensitive |
| 08:03:39 | S_a_i_n_t | Llorean: It was decided (I think) that play/pause/stop should be central, and prev/rewind to the left, and next/fastforward to the right. |
| 08:03:45 | S_a_i_n_t | as this is "sane ordering". |
| 08:04:02 | Llorean | Yes, between those three, that makes sense |
| 08:04:03 | S_a_i_n_t | the question left is, shuffle on the left repeat on the right...or vice versa. |
| 08:04:08 | Llorean | But I don't see why those three need to be in the center of the screen |
| 08:04:16 | Llorean | You could has (repeat)(shuffle)(prev)(pause)(next) |
| 08:04:19 | Llorean | *have |
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| 08:05:02 | S_a_i_n_t | Hmmm...it does kinda *look* better with play/pause/stop central. |
| 08:05:08 | S_a_i_n_t | at least in portrait mode. |
| 08:05:18 | Llorean | That's subjective though, anyway |
| 08:05:54 | S_a_i_n_t | 'tis indeed. |
| 08:05:56 | Llorean | I actually have several gadgets that have (play/pause)(prev)(next) even |
| 08:06:15 | S_a_i_n_t | touch gadgets? |
| 08:06:18 | Llorean | So I wouldn't rule that play/pause needs to be between the two, if you can improve ease of use for the more common actions by putting it elsewhere |
| 08:06:44 | S_a_i_n_t | the reason why I was asked to change it is apparently we're the only ones that have this touch layout. |
| 08:06:54 | Llorean | S_a_i_n_t: Physical buttons on MP3 players, so it's the same situation - music controls on a device. |
| 08:07:30 | S_a_i_n_t | Hmmm. I dislike contentious issues. especially with UI stuff. |
| 08:07:40 | Llorean | Personally I'd want "prev" and "next" to be the easiest buttons to hit, followed by "play" followed by "shuffle" and "repeat" |
| 08:07:46 | S_a_i_n_t | I now have NO IDEA how to order the bottom panel. |
| 08:08:16 | Llorean | I'd honestly put the buttons at the *top* of the screen myself. Easier to press over all (for me) |
| 08:08:25 | Llorean | Less thumb angling. |
| 08:08:41 | Llorean | But I'm just sayin' |
| 08:09:06 | Llorean | It may be best to open up a wider discussion of how people use their touch devices. In the case of touchscreen devices, we're not just discussing how it looks but how people interact with it. |
| 08:09:14 | Llorean | It's, essentially, "keymaps" for a screen. |
| 08:09:31 | * | Llorean would suggest starting something on the -dev mailing list as soon as possible. |
| 08:10:03 | S_a_i_n_t | I think I will follow the widget, and place play/pause/stop/ between next/prev. |
| 08:10:36 | Llorean | Yeah, it makes sense to match the widget for now, especially. |
| 08:10:38 | S_a_i_n_t | the question left is center it, or have it to left or right od the screen...and what to do with repeat and shuffle in turn. |
| 08:11:48 | Llorean | Honestly, I can see other reasons for a bit of separation between them, like a slightly larger gap between (shuffle)(repeat) (prev)(play)(next) since they affect playback order, rather than current playback state. |
| 08:11:54 | Llorean | But again, that's just me. |
| 08:12:00 | S_a_i_n_t | prev/rew,play/pause/stop/next/ffwd,shuffle,repeat? |
| 08:12:20 | S_a_i_n_t | unless I get a screaming "NO!" very soon...I'll run with that. |
| 08:12:48 | S_a_i_n_t | oops..."prev/rew,play/pause/stop,next/ffwd,shuffle,repeat? |
| 08:14:15 | Llorean | Another advantage of "next" being at an edge of the screen is that you can do it by touch, say while driving (assuming you don't have the screen auto-offing, or can bring that up blind) |
| 08:14:24 | * | Llorean shrugs |
| 08:14:27 | Llorean | Either way, though |
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| 08:22:18 | S_a_i_n_t | bleargh! I forgot about volume. |
| 08:22:44 | S_a_i_n_t | ok....right...I think I have it. |
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| 08:24:22 | S_a_i_n_t | prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd, volume, shuffle, repeat |
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| 08:26:51 | S_a_i_n_t | errr...repeat, shuffle...probably, it looks better IMO. |
| 08:26:55 | S_a_i_n_t | damn this is a hard one. |
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| 08:35:13 | S_a_i_n_t | ok...this time...: volume, repeat, shuffle, prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd |
| 08:35:23 | S_a_i_n_t | Llorean: ^ |
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| 09:25:52 | pixelma | S_a_i_n_t: I suspected the "swiping" was actually due to a fallback to grid mode |
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| 09:56:47 | S_a_i_n_t | JdGordon: Do you think it would be possible to get the skin engine to draw a nice bi-tonal gradient as the background param in the default (or any other) viewport?With that, and my work to remove the "hardcoded" theme element backdrops from the cabbie backdrop (the .sbs and .wps can use the same backdrop now), things like the progressbar background, volume, shuffle and repeat backgrounds, the titlebar etc. we could save a considerable amount of skin RAM |
| 09:58:28 | S_a_i_n_t | 220x340 backdrop is ~220kb, and it's just a simple bitonal gradient...drawing this with the skin engine would probably be faster to load, and would save a lot of skin buffer. |
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| 10:10:08 | dionoea | kugel_: hum ... weird. For some reason it was giving me permission errors in the logs if I didn't include the permission changes. |
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| 10:51:26 | S_a_i_n_t | Forum user masilod wants a ban (spambot) |
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| 11:01:21 | JdGord | S_a_i_n_t: yeah, I've thought about adding gradients to skins for a while... 6 things at a time though |
| 11:01:41 | S_a_i_n_t | yessum ;) |
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| 11:23:53 | pixelma | scorche, AlexP, soap: see what S_a_i_n_t said about forum user masilod - and a question about this anti-spam plugin. Since posts that are caught by it still show up in "Recent Posts" etc., is it a good ides to delete the posts manually or does it have some negative side effects for the akismet (handling)? |
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| 11:51:50 | pondlife | Any other Gigabeat (F) owners - please could you have a look at http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12004 . It may be I have a hardware fault, or it may not. |
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| 12:54:23 | S_a_i_n_t | I made a font pack (~17mb total) with a bunch of fonts converted from DroidSans and DroidSans-Bold .ttf fonts (from Google Android) using convttf, these fonts range from 12pt to 50pt in 2pt increments and are available here: http://www.datafilehost.com/download-51b50235.html |
| 12:54:25 | S_a_i_n_t | The link will stay active for 30 days after upload or the last download. |
| 13:00 |
| 13:05:59 | dionoea | a convttf plugin would even allow using ttf fonts natively! (ok, it's never going to happen but it would be neat) |
| 13:07:39 | Zagor | I actually implemented exactly that for work this week |
| 13:08:25 | Zagor | that is, converting ttf to bitmap fonts when loaded. so the customer only ever handles ttf files. |
| 13:08:38 | S_a_i_n_t | Ooooohhh ;) |
| 13:08:50 | S_a_i_n_t | So, you think some of your work could be ported? ;) |
| 13:09:29 | S_a_i_n_t | If the fonts are converted natively, there's no issues about distribution. |
| 13:09:44 | Zagor | well it's mostly freetype code, and knowing how to deal with the kerning and offsets |
| 13:11:06 | Zagor | the arm build of the freetype library is 660 KB... |
| 13:11:24 | S_a_i_n_t | It would be truly awesome for RaaA to have the option of running a plugin after the first run (or on demand) to generate a fontset for the device from the .ttf files available on the device. |
| 13:12:21 | Zagor | well, you need to know which size to use |
| 13:12:46 | Zagor | or make a bucketload of them :) |
| 13:13:25 | S_a_i_n_t | the second option isn't so bad. |
| 13:13:50 | Zagor | it is for gnufont :) |
| 13:13:57 | S_a_i_n_t | DroidSans and DroidSans-Bold 12~50py fonts in 2pt increments comes out to ~17mb |
| 13:14:11 | S_a_i_n_t | s/py/pt/ |
| 13:14:27 | Zagor | how many glyphs is that? |
| 13:14:50 | S_a_i_n_t | damn...I just closed the console. |
| 13:15:01 | S_a_i_n_t | um...~600 or so I think |
| 13:15:59 | Zagor | probably the best option is to have a companion app that creates the fonts, rather than a plugin |
| 13:16:41 | Zagor | adding the freetype source in the rockbox build is no fun |
| 13:16:55 | Zagor | gsoc project! |
| 13:17:09 | S_a_i_n_t | :D |
| 13:17:22 | S_a_i_n_t | quick! to the gsoc wiki page! |
| 13:17:37 | dionoea | hehe |
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| 13:50:03 | kugel_ | S_a_i_n_t: you could probably easily hack up a plugin on RaaA (not so easy on native targets that if the freetype lib is that huge) |
| 13:50:52 | Zagor | yes, it would be easy but we really don't want freetype in our build |
| 13:51:40 | Zagor | and rather than mucking with an external plugin, a separate app is a much saner option |
| 13:52:31 | gevaerts | hm, does car adapter mode play nice with party mode? |
| 13:52:36 | kugel_ | a separate app can't access rockbox' font folder on the internal memory |
| 13:53:41 | kugel_ | so it'd require you to install the font pack as you lose the fonts on the internal memory once you have a font folder in /sdcard/rockbox |
| 13:54:39 | JdGordon | gevaerts: i doubt it |
| 13:55:05 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'd guess party mode prevents car adapter mode (and I'd argue that maybe it should - if Car Adapter is accidentally on, and it's unplugged from power at a party, it probably shouldn't stop) |
| 13:55:22 | Llorean | Well, prevents car adapter mode from pausing/stopping |
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| 13:59:30 | esgikey | hai |
| 13:59:37 | esgikey | hello avarybody |
| 13:59:58 | gevaerts | Llorean: right. That's what I suspect. I won't recommend party mode on the forums then :) |
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| 14:02:05 | kugel_ | I wonder if we could have "metaplugins" that just start other apps? |
| 14:04:48 | kugel_ | Zagor: the %TOC% links in the wiki are "broken" again |
| 14:05:13 | kugel_ | they add a /Main to the URL and hence force a full reload of the page |
| 14:05:29 | kugel_ | IIRC we had this problem on the last wiki upgrade too |
| 14:06:45 | | Nick kugel_ is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 14:08:32 | Zagor | kugel: moving all fonts to external memory seems like a plus to me |
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| 14:13:11 | Zagor | yes I know about the link bug |
| 14:13:54 | kugel | okay |
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| 14:39:48 | kugel | S_a_i_n_t: making << || >> centered is not easy because the 6 icons can't really me made symmetrical |
| 14:40:28 | kugel | but fwiw, I also find it easier to hit stuff at the left side of the screen with my right thumb |
| 14:40:59 | Zagor | six icons? we only discussed five yesterday |
| 14:41:34 | S_a_i_n_t | I forgot volume |
| 14:42:19 | S_a_i_n_t | I have settled on "volume, repeat, shuffle, prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd" |
| 14:42:32 | Zagor | do we have our own volume on raaa? |
| 14:42:45 | S_a_i_n_t | yep |
| 14:42:54 | Zagor | why? |
| 14:43:18 | preglow_ | tried to ask that myself |
| 14:43:25 | Bagder | volume is really pointless on screen |
| 14:43:26 | | Nick preglow_ is now known as preglow (thomj@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no) |
| 14:43:28 | S_a_i_n_t | it's actually very cool, as you can use the system volume as the "max global volume", then use RaaA's much finer volume tuning. |
| 14:43:43 | Zagor | that's cool= |
| 14:43:43 | Zagor | ? |
| 14:43:50 | Zagor | I'd call it annoying |
| 14:43:58 | preglow | the volume widget onscreen is more bother than anything else, i often inadvertently change it when pressing pause, and can't get it back to 0 db |
| 14:44:03 | S_a_i_n_t | useful. |
| 14:44:18 | Bagder | well, it's not useful if you think you can raise the volume there |
| 14:44:31 | Bagder | or hit it accidentally as preglow says |
| 14:44:35 | Zagor | vaguely useful in some corner cases, perhaps. not icon-on-the-frontpage useful. |
| 14:44:56 | Zagor | and definitely not customary in android apps |
| 14:44:58 | preglow | i don't see why rockbox should have its own volume when no other apps do |
| 14:45:26 | Zagor | me neither |
| 14:45:58 | S_a_i_n_t | the system volume control is nowhere near as fine garained as RB's...which is something I find annoying personally. |
| 14:46:06 | S_a_i_n_t | quite big jumps. |
| 14:46:06 | preglow | but rockbox people generally seem adverse as hell to give up on even redundant features, so i assume it'll stay :> |
| 14:46:14 | S_a_i_n_t | *grained |
| 14:46:45 | preglow | i think there is a way to adjust it in finer steps |
| 14:47:34 | preglow | i never required such finegrained control over it anyway |
| 14:47:35 | S_a_i_n_t | anyway, the volume icon also serves to open the volume slider popup, which gives a nice slider to control the volume with. |
| 14:47:51 | S_a_i_n_t | so no need to fight with the volume in settings, or on a tiny touch icon. |
| 14:48:03 | preglow | so you can't manipulate the icon directly now? |
| 14:48:19 | Zagor | S_a_i_n_t: except you only control half the volume |
| 14:48:19 | S_a_i_n_t | yes. |
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| 14:48:51 | Bagder | I'm firmly against that on a default wps |
| 14:48:51 | S_a_i_n_t | instead of using a tiny volume icon, the volume icon brings up a nice popup window. |
| 14:49:00 | S_a_i_n_t | where the volume is adjusted on a slider. |
| 14:49:12 | preglow | but yeah, two volume controls is nothing else than confusing no matter how it's done |
| 14:49:13 | S_a_i_n_t | why? |
| 14:49:24 | Bagder | because it is mostly pointless |
| 14:49:25 | Zagor | I have volume +/- buttons. they work very nicely. |
| 14:49:35 | S_a_i_n_t | against it...sure....though I don;t know why, but *firmly*? |
| 14:49:44 | Bagder | firmly, because I think default should be nice and clean |
| 14:49:52 | preglow | it's not readily apparent in any way that rockbox's own volume control is something else than what you'd expect from any other androiud app |
| 14:49:54 | Bagder | not packed with silly things nobody needs |
| 14:50:15 | S_a_i_n_t | what's unclean about a nice convenient popup volume window? |
| 14:50:25 | Bagder | and I say default, I can live with it being in custom things for those who really want it |
| 14:50:32 | Zagor | S_a_i_n_t: it's not volume! it's attenuation top top of the volume. |
| 14:50:37 | Zagor | *on top |
| 14:50:44 | preglow | all media players just use android's own media volume, why should rockbox be different? and how can we expect users to understand that it is? |
| 14:51:06 | preglow | requiring reading of the manual for something as simple as the volume control is just stupid... |
| 14:51:15 | S_a_i_n_t | meh...crying to me will hardly solve it. |
| 14:51:22 | preglow | not really crying to you |
| 14:51:28 | preglow | just stating my opinion and hoping it's read |
| 14:51:28 | S_a_i_n_t | while it's there, I will give facilities to use it in the themes. |
| 14:51:34 | dionoea | (all media players also use the native ui ...) |
| 14:51:39 | Bagder | we're discussing, that's not the same as crying... |
| 14:51:50 | S_a_i_n_t | it's really kugel's say I guess. |
| 14:52:01 | Bagder | it's _our_ say |
| 14:52:05 | preglow | dionoea: naw, know of several that don't :> |
| 14:52:09 | preglow | droidsound <3 |
| 14:52:19 | S_a_i_n_t | yeah..."crying to me" is perhaps not so easily translated. |
| 14:52:27 | S_a_i_n_t | it's not meant to be so literal. |
| 14:52:36 | preglow | no biggie anyway |
| 14:53:24 | * | dionoea would love to have something like RaaL |
| 14:53:41 | preglow | hm? |
| 14:53:47 | Zagor | just to clarify, I don't oppose it being in the code or some themes. I just don't think it should be in the default theme. |
| 14:53:48 | dionoea | just an audio playback library |
| 14:53:51 | S_a_i_n_t | I remember it coming up many moons ago...and kugel mentioned then that several users had said they liked having the two volume controls...I've heard the same myself personally. |
| 14:54:03 | S_a_i_n_t | Now all of a sudden the opposite, so I don't know what to think. |
| 14:54:06 | Zagor | dionoea: I'm working (slowly) on that. it's... messy. |
| 14:54:12 | dionoea | oh. cool |
| 14:54:34 | Bagder | S_a_i_n_t: it was never asked on the dev list for example, was it? |
| 14:54:47 | kugel | I don't see why we can't sell it as a feature but should copy existing apps' behavior instead |
| 14:54:52 | preglow | some users is always bound to like some random feature, it's more a question of how we want rockbox do be, if you ask me |
| 14:54:56 | preglow | and i'd like more simplicity |
| 14:54:58 | dionoea | I was thinking about an http interface to rockbox but that would only really make sense if the core features were exposes as a library. |
| 14:54:59 | preglow | it's getting a bit out of hand |
| 14:55:00 | Zagor | having the possibility is a good thing. having a confusing default is not. |
| 14:55:02 | kugel | and this more fine grained control is a feature for me |
| 14:55:17 | dionoea | (To use rockbox as a source for a home stereo system) |
| 14:55:23 | S_a_i_n_t | kugel: The seeming need to copy existing implementations annyos me somewhat too. |
| 14:55:24 | kugel | preglow: rockbox consists of a hell lot of random features |
| 14:55:28 | preglow | kugel: quite |
| 14:55:41 | dionoea | s/exposes/exposed/ |
| 14:55:58 | S_a_i_n_t | I also find the fine grained control a big bonus...but others seem to find the system volume sufficient, whereas I *really* don't. |
| 14:55:59 | Zagor | we are discussing the default theme here, not available features in rockbox |
| 14:57:11 | Zagor | the default theme is all about introducing new users |
| 14:57:28 | S_a_i_n_t | I also find it convenient that I can set Rockbox to a volume level, and have it remembered. |
| 14:57:43 | Zagor | they will be suitably shocked by the amount of options anyway, without us forcing it on them |
| 14:58:16 | preglow | you can still do that without it being on the wps |
| 14:58:20 | preglow | np |
| 14:59:22 | kugel | I don't desperately need it on the wps |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:25 | kugel | but then we need an android specific wps because the other touchscreens (including maemo) don't have this feautre |
| 15:00:31 | S_a_i_n_t | I think the volume icon makes sense in the .sbs and the .wps...as we need to keep in mind we suport targets with no HW buttons. |
| 15:00:49 | | Quit alexbobp (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 15:01:04 | Zagor | kugel: n900 has volume buttons |
| 15:01:20 | S_a_i_n_t | so, the default theme having a icon that launches a volume popup is really necessary. |
| 15:01:34 | * | S_a_i_n_t is thinking tablets here |
| 15:01:37 | kugel | Zagor: ah yes right. but it doesn't have the separate volume control |
| 15:03:35 | Zagor | S_a_i_n_t: have you seen any tablets without volume control yet? |
| 15:03:47 | * | kugel is mildly amused that clicking on the album art in the built-in media player (in CM) leads you to the current playlist |
| 15:04:03 | kugel | that must be new, I can't remember it had that a few month ago |
| 15:04:11 | Zagor | does anyone know an android phone without volume buttons? |
| 15:04:24 | * | kugel suspects they stole that feature from us! :) |
| 15:04:49 | preglow | disappointingly, they didn't steal their eq from us :> |
| 15:05:12 | kugel | no surprise :) |
| 15:05:39 | | Quit Bagder (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 15:05:53 | preglow | they use some weird-ass configuration of shelving filters that can't sound too good |
| 15:05:58 | preglow | i've gotta install that stuff soon |
| 15:06:10 | preglow | just need to figure out how to back shit up |
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| 15:14:41 | pixelma | urgh, the volume control on my Android phone is way to coarse and even "1" is too loud with simple earphones in a quiet surrounding where "0" is mute. I like that Rockbox gives me finer control but I agree that controlling the maximum through the global volume and Rockbox being percentage (or what) of that confused me and then it's almost two fine grained |
| 15:15:18 | pixelma | maybe it could somehow "sync" to the global volume and add a few extra steps between or so |
| 15:15:55 | | Quit Judas_PhD (Quit: This is a quitting message) |
| 15:16:18 | Zagor | that's a pretty good idea. intercept the buttons (we can, can't we?) and add steps between the big android leaps |
| 15:16:59 | S_a_i_n_t | that I could handle |
| 15:18:08 | dionoea | that would probably we worse since media volume controlled outside rockbox when rockbox is running wouldn't have the same timesteps |
| 15:18:29 | dionoea | s/timesteps/dbsteps |
| 15:19:00 | Zagor | dionoea: well it just means adjusting the volume outside rockbox does big steps while doing it inside rockbox does small steps |
| 15:19:15 | dionoea | isn't that counter intuitive ? |
| 15:19:40 | Zagor | I guess it should be optional |
| 15:20:03 | Zagor | but I don't think it's too confusing as long as we give good visual feedback |
| 15:20:20 | Zagor | the same buttons do the same work, after all. just with higher resolution. |
| 15:20:34 | | Quit leavittx_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 15:23:16 | dionoea | that would really be weird |
| 15:24:42 | S_a_i_n_t | it would? |
| 15:25:01 | S_a_i_n_t | I'd really like to have the RB resolution on the HW buttons |
| 15:25:35 | dionoea | yeah but you'd probably have different resolution depending on the context |
| 15:25:47 | dionoea | in app / outside locked / unlocked |
| 15:26:14 | S_a_i_n_t | hmmmm...yes. |
| 15:26:26 | dionoea | you also have to note that the media stream volume is common to all media apps |
| 15:27:08 | dionoea | so that would probably lead to unwanted behavior in case other media apps were running at the same time. |
| 15:27:23 | dionoea | (ok, that sounds unlikely but you never know) |
| 15:27:27 | pixelma | are there still no forum admins or global mods available who could take care of the spam? |
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| 15:52:50 | amiconn | S_a_i_n_t: Calculated gradient wouldn't save skin ram, but only disk space - at the cost of additional code |
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| 15:53:38 | amiconn | The reason is that the gradient is technically still a backdrop and has to be precalculated - otherwise we'd lose *a lot* of performance in all drawing routines |
| 16:00 |
| 16:05:09 | | Quit sirrozha () |
| 16:06:11 | Zagor | dionoea: I don't see the problem really. we bump the android volume 1 step, and add 90% attenuation. then the next 9 steps we decrease 10% attenuation, then repeat. |
| 16:06:31 | Zagor | other media players would get the same volume, just not the higher resolution |
| 16:08:11 | pixelma | even if it's not completely "clean", I guess it's better than what there is now |
| 16:11:13 | kugel | Zagor: the attenuation doesn |
| 16:11:26 | kugel | 't give you values between the global volume steps |
| 16:11:51 | Zagor | no, we need to create such adjustments ourselves |
| 16:12:05 | Zagor | which might be a challenge, but is technically possible |
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| 16:13:12 | kugel | there's also the issue that some parts (like fade on pause) mess with the volume |
| 16:13:33 | Zagor | only temporarily, and only our internal volume. no problem. |
| 16:13:46 | kugel | I don't use fade on pause, but it'd be pretty horrid of that affects the OS global volume, no? |
| 16:13:47 | Zagor | s/internal volume/attenuation/ |
| 16:14:10 | Zagor | I agree, it must only use our attenuation |
| 16:14:13 | kugel | we don't have the concept of multiple volumes in rockbox yet |
| 16:14:16 | Zagor | which it does |
| 16:14:31 | Zagor | it's just a "device driver" thing. no concept needed. |
| 16:14:54 | kugel | it does global_settings.volume++ :) |
| 16:15:08 | Zagor | well, yes it needs a little more code obviously :) |
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| 16:18:57 | n1s | imo, fade on pause should be done in dsp |
| 16:19:15 | n1s | except maybe on hwcodec targets |
| 16:26:20 | amiconn | On hwcodec we could do it in the MAS stereo matrix (where stereo width is handled as well). This would need dB -> linear conversion |
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| 16:34:16 | kugel | n1s: dsp has latency |
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| 16:50:21 | CIA-2 | New commit by thomasjfox (r29555): Don't call apps/ code from firmware/ ... |
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| 16:53:17 | n1s | kugel: that doesn't matter much for a fade i think |
| 16:53:56 | amiconn | It does because the fade needs to start (nearly) immediately when the user presses pause or stop |
| 16:54:04 | kugel | its multiple seconds |
| 16:54:23 | CIA-2 | r29555 build result: 16 errors, 0 warnings (thomasjfox committed) |
| 16:57:06 | | Join thomasjfox [0] (~tomj@fw.intra2net.com) |
| 16:57:50 | gevaerts | thomasjfox: missing #ifdef? |
| 16:58:48 | thomasjfox | I'm wondering about that because audio_stop() is callable and audio_pause() is not? |
| 16:58:58 | thomasjfox | (for the bootloader case) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:02:28 | gevaerts | Actually, why is handle_sleep_timer() in the bootloader? |
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| 17:05:30 | thomasjfox | gevaerts: We could exclude it |
| 17:06:55 | thomasjfox | gevaerts: handle_sleep_timer() has been recently created when I splitted handle_auto_poweroff() into a smaller function |
| 17:08:48 | thomasjfox | I'll just ifdef the code inside handle_sleep_timer so I don't have to clutter the call site |
| 17:09:11 | thomasjfox | (like sys_poweroff() already does) |
| 17:09:17 | gevaerts | thomasjfox: audio_stop() comes from flash/bootbox/main.c for the bootloader build apparently |
| 17:09:41 | gevaerts | So you should probably add a stub there |
| 17:09:52 | gevaerts | And then think about cleaning things up :) |
| 17:10:41 | | Quit n1s (Quit: Lämnar) |
| 17:11:09 | gevaerts | Or add some ifdefs right away |
| 17:11:12 | * | gevaerts isn't sure |
| 17:11:24 | thomasjfox | gevaerts: Isn't the ifdef at the beginning of handle_sleep_timer() cleaner than adding the dummy stuff? If we don't need that code, don't compile it :) |
| 17:11:35 | gevaerts | Probably, yes |
| 17:11:39 | thomasjfox | I'll stick to that |
| 17:13:14 | CIA-2 | New commit by thomasjfox (r29556): Don't compile handle_sleep_timer() code for the bootloader |
| 17:14:36 | thomasjfox | kugel: btw: You're the man for committing AA support :) |
| 17:14:44 | | Join exorbist [0] (~5288ce6f@giant.haxx.se) |
| 17:14:53 | exorbist | hey i got a question |
| 17:15:35 | exorbist | i got a philips gogear raga 4gb will it support rockbox ? |
| 17:15:41 | | Quit exorbist (Client Quit) |
| 17:16:58 | CIA-2 | r29556 build result: All green |
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| 18:23:59 | kugel | thomasjfox: what? I recently committed several kinds of AA :-) |
| 18:25:11 | gevaerts | kugel: you mean the Anti-Aliased Android App with Album Art? |
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| 18:31:44 | thomasjfox | hahaha. I meant general AA support |
| 18:32:01 | gevaerts | You mean all of them? :) |
| 18:32:02 | thomasjfox | (=anti-aliased fonts) |
| 18:32:23 | kugel | yea :-) |
| 18:32:36 | thomasjfox | Though embedded album art is very nice, too |
| 18:33:18 | thomasjfox | sorry, that should be embedded AA ;) |
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| 18:50:26 | AlexP | pixelma: I can't find that user, so I'm assuming they are already banned. I've removed all the posts using askimet, but as to your question about it, I don't know |
| 18:51:07 | AlexP | Given the number of questions coming up about it, I think devcon would be a good time to nail down android things |
| 18:51:19 | AlexP | Specifically default WPS stuff |
| 18:51:40 | AlexP | Personally, I don't think volume should be on default WPS |
| 18:52:02 | AlexP | But it is something we need to remember that it is quite different in many ways to a traditional target |
| 19:00 |
| 19:01:11 | bluebrother | IMO volume itself doesn't make much sense on Android since there's this media volume thing |
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| 19:04:33 | | Join Stummi [0] (~Stummi@rockbox/developer/Stummi) |
| 19:07:29 | AlexP | bluebrother: Well, RB has more fine grained control, but I agree - have it as an option people can stick on a wps if they want, but not on the default |
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| 19:20:35 | | Quit sideral (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 19:25:48 | | Join Zagor [0] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor) |
| 19:27:26 | bluebrother | AlexP: it might be more fine grained, but you can't control it that fine grained on the touch screen. Except when using the menu :) |
| 19:27:45 | | Quit robin0800 (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:27:59 | AlexP | bluebrother: true, and I can't get it to go to full volume either |
| 19:28:16 | AlexP | bluebrother: But I think you can now make it pop up a bar which should be better |
| 19:28:29 | bluebrother | true |
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| 19:32:49 | kugel | AlexP: I agree, we should have a large talk about android and raaa in general at the devcon |
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| 19:54:16 | pixelma | the volume "menu" on RaaA is weird too (at list on my android phone) - you scroll through it and it changes volume but there is no highlight of that as long as you don't see the initial setting or explicitly chose something |
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| 19:56:32 | pixelma | (that's what I remember wondering about but I'm not a 100% sure, need to look it up again) |
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| 20:00 |
| 20:04:48 | B4gder | and now we have only one devcon date where all currently signed up people can attend |
| 20:05:29 | B4gder | "about 24 hours left to submit your org's application for GSoC 2011" |
| 20:07:08 | | Join pwl [0] (~959c4499@giant.haxx.se) |
| 20:08:37 | pwl | hi, I have encountered a little problem while partitioning iPod Nano 1G. Here is what I do: sudo mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/sdb2 results in mkfs.vfat: failed whilst writing FAT |
| 20:09:22 | AlexP | B4gder: Looks like the third then :) |
| 20:09:41 | AlexP | 03/06 that is |
| 20:09:43 | bluebrother | B4gder: so we need more people to sign up with different dates to make that distributed more evenly :) |
| 20:09:52 | B4gder | =) |
| 20:09:54 | AlexP | gah, 2011/06/03 |
| 20:10:04 | * | bluebrother prefers 2011-06-03 |
| 20:10:22 | pwl | I did everything as in http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodManualRestore, including recreating the partition table from scratch |
| 20:10:37 | AlexP | bluebrother: Yes, I realised as pressing enter that the silly US date system means that I only made it less clear :) |
| 20:10:51 | pwl | I would grately appreciate any help |
| 20:11:01 | bluebrother | I figured that I get a date conflict on 3rd too but I can live with that |
| 20:11:41 | bluebrother | pwl: is there a reason why you're formatting the Ipod? I never needed to do that (except when swapping drives) |
| 20:13:33 | bluebrother | one nice thing about the 3rd is that the 2nd is a public holiday in germany :) |
| 20:13:35 | pwl | The file system got corrupted, and the only way for me to get it working again was to format it |
| 20:14:51 | AlexP | bluebrother: France too |
| 20:14:56 | AlexP | but not the UK |
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| 20:17:05 | bluebrother | pwl: sorry, no idea. Maybe some flash corruption? |
| 20:17:57 | bluebrother | ok, so is the date settled? Or are we waiting for others to care for distributing the green checkmarks a bit more? |
| 20:18:09 | pwl | bluebrother: it looks like it, I reformatted it many times before without any problem |
| 20:18:32 | B4gder | bluebrother: we should probably set a deadline for when people can edit the doodle and then decide |
| 20:19:39 | bluebrother | B4gder: I agree. Planning early would be a good thing :) |
| 20:20:02 | bluebrother | plus, if I want to go by train I should get the tickets soon. |
| 20:20:09 | B4gder | yes, travel and accommodation and convincing family etc are better with some time ahead |
| 20:20:43 | | Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik) |
| 20:21:49 | AlexP | B4gder: When do you think is reasonable - a week after Torne sent the original e-mail? |
| 20:22:13 | | Join thomasjfox [0] (~thomasjfo@rockbox/developer/thomasjfox) |
| 20:22:18 | B4gder | sounds fine to me |
| 20:22:18 | AlexP | That would be until next Tuesday |
| 20:23:00 | * | AlexP suggest this to the list |
| 20:23:02 | B4gder | more people can still join, they just won't affect which date we pick |
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| 21:00 |
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| 21:02:50 | scorche` | pixelma: where is this post? |
| 21:03:35 | | Quit user890104 () |
| 21:05:28 | pixelma | AlexP took care of them. I just thought that if I delete them they end up in the "Deleted Posts" section so that the normal user doesn't see them. But I wasn't sure if that would make it harder for you guys |
| 21:05:29 | pixelma | or not |
| 21:05:29 | | Quit pwl (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) |
| 21:05:36 | | Nick scorche` is now known as scorche (~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche) |
| 21:05:44 | pixelma | there were like 10..15 spam posts |
| 21:06:07 | scorche | pixelma: it shouldnt make it harder - i will have to experiment |
| 21:06:49 | AlexP | scorche: Does the askimet job have any config items so that non-approved posts don't show up in recent posts, and don't make threads say there are new posts? |
| 21:06:52 | | Quit Keripo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:07:03 | pixelma | alright, I just that it could be a stop gap solution to hide them from the normal user who happens to look at the recent posts list |
| 21:07:28 | pixelma | it took quite a while until they were cleaned out |
| 21:08:10 | scorche | AlexP: no - i do know that it is not fully integrated into our current theme, however that may not be the issue here - akismet was not designed for SMF after all - just adapted |
| 21:08:40 | scorche | i *think* the integration into our theme is more about letting the poster know they have been flagged - i will have to check |
| 21:08:48 | AlexP | OK, cheers |
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| 21:24:30 | Zagor | heh, JdGordon's dynamic size patch build is impressively dynamic. it lives in the upper left quarter of my screen :-) |
| 21:28:23 | scorche | as a reminder, if you are planning to be involved in GSoC (as a mentor capacity - or just want some say in it) - join #rockbox-gsoc |
| 21:32:48 | scorche | B4gder: your link id is still "rockbox", yes? |
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| 22:06:16 | | Quit esperegu (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 22:09:20 | Zagor_ | kugel: why is the android button translation split into three separate functions, rather than a single switch? |
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| 22:31:34 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:33:05 | Zagor_ | guys, I'm going to fix fade_on_stop now. this has been wrong for way too long. |
| 22:34:44 | jhMikeS | how so? |
| 22:35:10 | Zagor_ | it's too slow. it's been too slow for ages. |
| 22:35:16 | | Join Jerom [0] (~jerome@79.132.59.245) |
| 22:35:34 | Zagor_ | it was added to mimic what winamp does, which is a *very* quick fade in/out just to avoid the pop |
| 22:35:44 | Zagor_ | it's not a sleep timer |
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| 22:50:51 | JdGordon | Zagor_: which target? is that what youd expect? |
| 22:52:33 | Zagor_ | JdGordon: all targets |
| 22:53:04 | JdGordon | ? OK im confused |
| 22:53:26 | Zagor_ | oh, sorry wrong context. android, 480x800 |
| 22:54:11 | JdGordon | the newest version of my patch only enables it for sdlapp, so maybe i messed up somewhere |
| 22:54:17 | JdGordon | (fairly likely) |
| 22:54:44 | Zagor_ | I tried the build on the wiki page |
| 22:54:57 | Zagor_ | android wiki page |
| 22:55:22 | JdGordon | ah, well thats ancient :) |
| 22:55:35 | Zagor_ | ok, fair enough |
| 23:00 |
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| 23:19:31 | | Quit literal (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 23:20:31 | gbl08ma | hi everyone. regarding the discussion about a-b repeat on iPod nano2g, I removed the comments from the two defines related to a-b repeat on ipodnano2g.h, compiled, and apparently A-B repeat works as expected (as described in the manual) without any issues so far (tested with a OGG Vorbis file) |
| 23:20:38 | | Quit leavittx_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:20:51 | B4gder | scorche: yes |
| 23:21:14 | | Join knittl [0] (~knittl@unaffiliated/knittl) |
| 23:21:50 | gbl08ma | so, I get to the conclusion that A-b repeat is stupidly disabled on nano2g. if any developer can test better and (if it really works) commit the changes to svn, it'd be gladly appreciated. |
| 23:22:17 | gevaerts | It's not disabled. It just isn't enabled :) |
| 23:22:35 | gbl08ma | as you prefer :) |
| 23:25:00 | CIA-2 | New commit by gevaerts (r29557): Enable A-B repeat on nano2g |
| 23:25:23 | CIA-2 | New commit by zagor (r29558): Quicker fade_on_stop. |
| 23:25:44 | | Join literal [0] (~hinrik@w.nix.is) |
| 23:27:10 | gbl08ma | thank you gevaerts... 22 seconds between two commits... |
| 23:28:12 | | Part gbl08ma |
| 23:28:23 | CIA-2 | r29557 build result: All green |
| 23:31:48 | | Join literal_ [0] (hinrik@w.nix.is) |
| 23:31:59 | CIA-2 | r29558 build result: All green |
| 23:32:04 | n1s | yeah, there are a few targets that don't have ab repeat enabled and i don't think ther's any reason for it |
| 23:32:31 | n1s | classic is one of them, so i could fix that as soon as i get the bootloader installed |
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| 23:35:10 | jhMikeS | how quick is fade on stop now? |
| 23:37:39 | Zagor_ | maybe 300ms |
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| 23:54:01 | CIA-2 | New commit by zagor (r29559): Enable volume keys in Android. |
| 23:54:33 | | Quit mudd1 (Quit: Ex-Chat) |
| 23:57:36 | CIA-2 | r29559 build result: All green |
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