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#rockbox log for 2011-03-23

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00:43:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:14:28LeifCould anyone tell me if I made a mistake submitting: FS #12025
01:14:51JdGordon|why do you tihnk you would have?
01:14:52Leif(I know I included the c file initially, the first comment should contain the patch).
01:15:19LeifJdGordon|, Meh, it's the first (well, second, but no one noticed the first) patch I made.
01:15:29Leifor rather, submitted, here.
01:17:33saratogaI posted a patch that fixes the SD missing on power up problem on amsv2 for me
01:17:38saratogabut i don't know if my fix is correct
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02:43:33***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:01:28[Saint]Anyone else seeing *craziness* with mute in the .wps on RaaA?
03:02:02[Saint]every time I press a playback/shuffle/repeat touch area...volume resets to -99dB.
03:06:38[Saint]JdGordon|: just something I noticed, this is with a rev immediately after your additions to playback control...I'll post the theme when I get a chance (later this evening).
03:10:10JdGordon|you sure?
03:10:13JdGordon|code looks sane
03:18:41[Saint]Oh, yeah...I'm sure.
03:19:03[Saint]I can't explain it with my code...but, I've been staring at it for a fortnight now.
03:19:24[Saint]perhaps someone else looking it over (my code) could be a good thing.
03:19:54JdGordon|it just started happening?
03:20:10JdGordon|are you sure you havnt messed up touch regions?
03:20:17[Saint]I'm out & about...and I just brought it up as I noticed it myself...I'll give a yell when I have the theme code posted somewhere. And yeah, just started.
03:20:53[Saint]and, pretty sure. (about ~99%) but don't stress about it 'til I know my code is sane ;)
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05:44:31wtachiI'd love to work on the mikmod plugin for GSoC, but I suppose it's too obscure?
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06:11:00*wtachi notices the time and decides to ask tomorrow
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08:25:41JdGordon|how does the themesite determine the latest release?
08:25:47JdGordon|it thinks 3.7 is the latest
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08:29:58[Saint]JdGordon|: <−− here's the theme I'm working on that displays *weird* shit in current SVN on my handset.
08:31:09[Saint]the plot thickens, it can't skip forwards, or fastforward in the .wps or .sbs (I know ffwd/rrwd isn't possible in the .sbs) and repeat, shuffle, next/prev and playmode all mute playback in the .wps
08:32:40[Saint](I hope it's some obvious mistake on my part...but if it is I can't see it)
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08:39:22homieloweHey B4gder/Swedes rockbox has been accepted to the GSOC 2011 \o/ Isn't that front page newsworthy? ;)
08:40:08B4gderit is...
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08:43:40***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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10:43:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:47:38[Saint]JdGordon|: Any chance you got to look at that theme I posted?
10:48:03[Saint]it's for my resolution, but it'll run on your handset...just smaller.
10:49:09[Saint]hmmm.... pixelma: could you also have a look at if you get a chance?
10:50:37[Saint]I've been looking at my own code too long.
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10:59:19[Saint] :/
10:59:25JdGordon|[Saint]: no, been out all night, maybe in the next while
11:00:04[Saint]no rush...I thought I had it just now, thought I'd caught a stupid out of bounds mistake...but apparently mot.
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11:02:04[Saint]yeah, ok...I was wrong. I am now back to having no clue why it doesn't work as expected.
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11:03:19[Saint]symptoms are: pretty much everything (playback, ffwd, rew, shuffle, repeat) mutes playback, and ffwd/next doesn't seem to work.
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11:04:12[Saint](the volume and menu popups screw up still, but ignore that)
11:07:22JdGordon|this sounds very odd indeed
11:07:36JdGordon|did you get to roll back the volume changes from last week?
11:07:46JdGordon|can you test a build if i make one for you?
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11:41:48soapis the ipod nano playing two "duplicate files" at the same time a known issue I missed or is this forum poster a loon?
11:42:08[Saint]a loon.
11:42:29[Saint](I don't think it's even possible for the playback engine to play two files simultaniously.
11:53:14gevaertssoap: filesystem corruption
11:53:53gevaertsThat sounds like a fairly resilient codec playing bits that come from various files
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12:21:28funmanbertrik: re SansaAMS r250 (wiki), perhaps you can say "(no link available, ask the developers) as35xx linux patch"
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12:24:58mc2739forum admins: care1912 needs to be banned (spammer)
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12:43:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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14:39:34wodz|workWow. Archos released android sources for their rk28xx based tablets. There are ftl driver in there. I wonder if rockchip changed FTL compared to this used in rk27xx sdk\
14:43:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:44:07wodz|workI'll have to crosscheck this with my dissasms
14:44:22pamaurythat would be very nice
14:55:57n1ssoap: playback playing short bits of different songs have been reported before with mp3, and was caused by fs corruption
14:56:25n1salthough i don't know what he means by "duplicate files"
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15:22:55[Saint]seeing duplicate files in the filebrowser or database could well be FS issues too.
15:23:08[Saint]n1s: ^
15:25:39sideralsomething is wrong with the online (html) manuals. they end in the middle of chapter 8
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17:51:02wodznand controller in rk28xx has different addresses for registers than rk27xx BUT bits in registers seems to match
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18:27:04alexbobpthe sansa clip + OF is getting to be a real problem for me
18:27:25alexbobpI can't use USBmode at all because I've left the damned thing overnight and it still doesn't update it's stupid database
18:28:02alexbobpsomeone suggested a workaround the other day of filling up the internal memory, but when I try to use USBMode with the internal memory full, it actually freezes at the "please free up 90MB" screen
18:28:21alexbobp(funny, since as far as I know, it's impossible to free up space in the OF)
18:30:10 Quit LambdaCalculus37 (Quit: back to work!)
18:30:33LloreanI don't think my clip+ does the database update if it's powered up with the USB cable in, it just goes straight to USB mode.
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18:42:06dfkt<alexbobp> (funny, since as far as I know, it's impossible to free up space in the OF) <−− you can remove ~200mb of the OF's MTP stuff by deleting the two ## folders in rockbox
18:43:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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18:47:59scorche|shHindu: yes?
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18:54:29saratogaHindu: would you please stop posting punctuation marks to the channel?
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19:04:00HinduI am really sorry for that. It was by mistake.
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19:08:17saratogaHindu: no problem, did you have a question?
19:08:40Hinduno , sorry
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19:51:03bluebrotherhmm? make doesn't find root.make on Cygwin but the file is at the searched location?
19:51:30bluebrotherpixelma: I don't know of any editor / IDE on Windows called TeXLive, I only know of that as LaTeX distribution
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19:58:44pixelmabluebrother: that one confused me: - but maybe they only invented a "fancy" installer
19:58:59pixelmain German
20:00:00bluebrotherpixelma: sounds to me like just the usual Tex Live installer
20:00:33*bluebrother still wonders why even make fails on cygwin for him
20:02:01pixelmaoh well, I didn't know it had one and didn't have much patience yesterday in the evening
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20:34:25bluebrotherah, starting bash myself fixed the file not found issue. Strange.
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20:50:08alexbobpLlorean: well mine does :(
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22:06:20sideralsomething is wrong with the online (html) manuals. they end in the middle of chapter 8. Who's maintaining them?
22:06:27sudomani built the 3.8 source release with a patch. when i boot up my ipod with it, "Ver. unknown-110323" is displayed instead of "Ver. 3.8". Is this for a reason?
22:06:59gevaertssideral: all of them? Are you looking at a specific one?
22:07:22sideralgevaerts: I looked at several. Right now I'm looking at the ClipV2 one
22:07:34*gevaerts has a look
22:08:07sideralsudoman: Yes, the reason is that you're compiling a modified build from a directory that is not source-controlled
22:08:19AlexPIt'll be the scroll speed commit yesterday
22:08:21AlexPI'll fix
22:08:36pixelmait can only be Buschel's commit yesterday I think - I suspect the \ButtonScrollUp/Sown bits
22:08:59sideralsudoman: the version is generated by tools/
22:09:00sudomansideral: hm. this wasn't a problem with the source of 3.7. should i try to check out 3.8 from svn?
22:09:43pixelmaAlexP: the H10 manuals still seem correct so I guess that's it
22:09:55AlexPsudoman: It is due to how the version was generated in the build scripts this time
22:10:03AlexPsudoman: I did it a bit differently
22:10:28AlexPIf you want it like last time, hack up IIRC to just return VERSION=whatever
22:10:28sideralsudoman: The version generation has changed since 3.7 IIRC. In an SVN checkout, the version will look like "r12345-110323"
22:10:46AlexPsudoman: or do "make VERSION=myversion"
22:10:49pixelmaAlexP: the other targets don't have a \ButtonScrollUp etc.
22:10:50gevaertspixelma, AlexP: it's ButtonScrollUp/Down yes. I haven't gotten further yet
22:11:40 Quit rodd ()
22:11:41sudomanthanks everyone : )
22:11:47pixelmamaybe an \ActionStd would be appropriate but I wouldn't know which exactly and would have to check
22:12:01AlexPNext and prev i think
22:12:07AlexPIt is just scrolling in lists
22:12:35Buschelpixelma: the button-stuff in my commit makes problems? for what builds?
22:12:55AlexPBuschel: Only the H10 has \ActionScrollXX so it breaks all the other manuals :)
22:13:04pixelmaeverything without scrollwheel or ButtonScrollUp/Down
22:13:05AlexPSorry, \ButtonScrollXX
22:13:25pixelmaas the entire section is excluded for scrollwheel targets
22:14:25Buschelthis button configuration is weird and non-intuitive
22:14:47AlexPBuschel: Not really, you just want to use an \ActionWhatever
22:14:58pixelmait's not very different to the c code
22:14:59AlexPThese mirror source keymaps
22:15:10gevaertsThe main problem is really that manuals aren't autobuilt
22:15:17AlexPWhereas the \Button whatever are like the raw hardware
22:17:59 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: Destructor called)
22:18:00Buschelso, I must use \ActionStdNext and \ActionStdPrev ?
22:18:00AlexPIn this case, I think so
22:18:01AlexPI'm just test building now
22:18:36sideralBuschel: Do you have a couple of minutes to discuss FS #11891 (mp3 unintended gap elision)?
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22:18:43Buschelwho reviewed yesterday? ;)
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22:18:56AlexPBuschel: It isn't a problem
22:19:18AlexPThe real problem is that the manual output is thrown away when they are built, so nobody notices if they break
22:19:43Buschelno, not really a problem. but it is inconvenient
22:20:08AlexPI will admit to not looking at the actual latex yesterday, just the English :)
22:20:27Buschelthe english was fine :)
22:20:32AlexPindeed :)
22:21:38Buschelsideral: of mcourse
22:22:18sideralBuschel: I didn't quite get from your comments whether you were opposed to this approach of deleting unintended gaps from broken mp3 files in principle
22:22:44sideralI'm asking because I want to see the feature in
22:22:59CIA-2New commit by alex (r29636): MAke manuals build again. Non scrollwheel targets don't have \ButtonScrollXX, so use \ActionStdXX instead.
22:23:10sideralI've already established consensus that it must be configurable (I think)
22:23:49sideralThe question for me is, should it be an on-off switch or a dial that allows users to configure the threshold
22:24:35 Quit sirrozha ()
22:26:01Buschelsideral: I'm opposing the feature because it is a workaround that cannot have precise results. the gap detection is a rough estimation based on a threshold.
22:26:44sideralHmm.. Everyone agrees that the feature cannot be precise. I find it useful nonetheless
22:26:55CIA-2r29636 build result: All green
22:27:14Buschelsideral: furthermore the feature in its current state might add audinle clicks as the waveform can be discontinuous after applying the gap detection (that could be solved)
22:28:28sideralI disagree with your second point:
22:28:28sideralYes, it could introduce an artifact, but it is less severe than the artifact it elides.
22:28:40AlexPI'm not to keen on the idea in principle, but not enough to stand in the way
22:28:52Buschelsideral: *if* we would add such feature we should not allow such gap detection for mp3 only, but for all other non-gapless formats as well.
22:29:15sideralBesides, this artifact is there for every lossy codec even if the track boundaries are known precisely
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22:30:13pamauryhum, the imx23 say the 0x23 command is ERASE_GROUP_START but I can't find it in the SD spec :(
22:30:29pamauryany comment ?
22:30:44sideralBuschel: I also disagree with your third point. The mechanism uses codec-specific information to address a codec-specific deficiency
22:31:09sideralIt could be implemented for other codecs as well, but not in a codec-independent fashion
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22:31:40sideralBut Llorean has proposed presenting these (possible multiple) codec-specific fixes under a generic config option
22:32:15Buschelsideral: i have another opinion. the codec could configure whether to apply gap detection and to how many samples this should be applied
22:32:42Buschelsideral: similar to the DSP configuration for every codec
22:33:41sideralthis would require major surgery to the codec-pcm interface AFAIU: apparently the pcm driver doesn't know about track changes at all(?)
22:33:56 Quit sudoman (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
22:34:28sideralI'd argue to do the simple and obvious implementation first, and refactor only when the need arises
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22:39:37sideralBuschel: Back to the 2nd point, I don't think it's this feature's idea to remove all inter-track clicking. If anyone wanted to implement that as a separate feature, I'd agree it warrants a codec-independent implementation
22:41:14sideralBuschel: Do you know of a method that would allow more precise detection of the codec-introduced gap?
22:42:13Buschelsideral: this clicking might even occur in the mp3->mp3 usecase. any such gap-reduction patch should fade in and out to enforce a continuous waveform
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22:43:43Buschelsideral: regarding a more precise method -> no. the waveform we see at the output of the decoder depends on the input signal (which we do not know).
22:43:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:44:38sideralIn my view, click removal != gap removal. Do you agree that any lossy format can have clicks between tracks even when there's no codec-introduced gap?
22:44:42Buschel(of course we know what libmad decoder brings in)
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22:45:55Buschel"gap removal should not bring in clicks" is what I meant to say
22:47:05Buschelmaybe even "gap removal should not bring in *additional* clicks"
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22:48:15sideralFirst, the click it introduces is much less severe than the one it removes. Second, I agree that clicks could be flattened −− and that that should be done in a codec-independent fashion.
22:48:15sideralBut my point is that the two things are separate, and thus an isolated introduction of a gap-removal mechanism is warranted.
22:51:26amiconnImo such a kludge should not be added at all
22:52:21Buschelhowever, I am not in favoir of bringing this in. *if* there should be majority willing to accept this feature this should definately be codec-independent, user configurable and switched off by default.
22:52:31amiconnAfaik it is not possible to detect the correct number of samples to remove if it's not explicitly included as metadata (lame tag or itunes gapless)
22:52:48Buschelamiconn: exactly.
22:53:14amiconnThe reason for this is that with lossless encoding, the signal is "smeared" across the block (or sub-block?)
22:53:26sideralright, this is a convenience feature for users willing to make a tradeoff. I find it extremely useful.
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22:54:47*amiconn never encountered an mp3 file that wasn't either made using -ngap (which avoids the entire problem and also works for hwcodec), or had a lame tag added
22:54:53sideralForcing users to endure the click/gap introduced by the codec is a trade-off as well. I don't see why it's the better tradeoff
22:54:58amiconn-nogap even
22:55:35sideralamiconn: I have several commercially purchased MP3s that don't have the tags
22:55:51amiconnThat would be a reason for refund imo...
22:56:08amiconn(if they aren't using the other method)
22:56:09sideralamiconn: AFAIU there is no way to avoid the gap except with the lame/itunes tags
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22:56:42Buschelmy notebook's battery is alarming me right now, I might be disconnected in a few minutes
22:57:04Buschel(just as a notice if I leave without further comment)
22:57:29sideralamiconn: I'd like Rockbox to be useful and helpful. Asking users to return their music for a refund, while technically not wrong, is not helpful
22:57:33amiconnThere is another method: Encode the adjacent tracks at once, and shift the track boundaries a few milliseconds so that the tracks only consist of complete frames (except the last one in the streak)
22:57:43amiconnThis is what -nogap does
22:58:01amiconnsideral: My point is that such tracks *are* technically broken
22:58:30amiconnYou can by no means restore the proper track length so that their is neither a gap, nor is something missing
22:58:37amiconnThe information is just not there
22:59:05sideralamiconn: you are right, but that doesn't tell anything about the usefulness of the feature
22:59:18*amiconn knows no audio player that tries to eliminate gaps this way
22:59:32amiconnWhat you can do (and rockbox already offers) is using crossfade
22:59:41sideralamiconn: I believe both xmms and audacious2 do it
23:00:54sideralNo; crossfade changes the audio even more than gap removal does
23:01:03mystica555i thought that crossfading with a 0 second buffer == gapless..
23:01:35mystica555granted i do a 'radio crossfade' where the next song comes in at full volume for 3s as the other fades out
23:01:42sideralBuschel: you haven't addressed my arguments contra codec independence AFAICT?
23:01:59amiconnCrossfading with 0 length would just be no crossfading at all, afaiu
23:02:39sideralmystica555: I don't want totally gapless playback even when there is an intended gap. I only want the audible unintended gaps introduced by the codec removed
23:02:59amiconnGapless is supported in rockbox, for all formats that offer it inherently (lossless and variable block length lossy formats), as well as mp3 if the respective tags exist.
23:03:17*mystica555 was just commenting on the way he always did 'gapless'
23:03:56amiconnIt doesn't add or remove anything. It just plays the tracks with the last sample of the old track and the first sample of the new one back-to-back
23:04:07Buschelsideral: I cannot comment on the complexity of pcm buffer rework needed for such codec independent feature
23:04:30Buschelsideral: I did not really evaluate this
23:04:44amiconnSomehow this is something that even some pc based media players are failing at, although it's quite simple (and rockbox has been supporting it since the beginning)
23:05:26sideralBuschel: then why can you be so sure a codec-independent implementation is better?
23:05:48Buschelit's not better, it is consistent
23:06:40sideralwhy not a general, codec-independent knob that turns on whatever codec-specific magic we may add?
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23:07:58Buschelthe logic for the gap reduction is the same. search an amount of samples and cut all samples before a minimum amplitude is reached
23:08:12Buschelwhy use codec specific magic?
23:09:06amiconnWouldn't this also remove *intended* gaps?
23:09:15sideralthe codec knows best when to apply this: 1st/last frame, any only if it determines that the silence is not intentional (by looking at the frame boundaries)
23:09:46Buschelthe codec might _call_ such generic function for the first frame
23:10:00Buschelstill such implementation can be generic
23:10:21Buschelamiconn: it might remove *intended* gaps.
23:10:50Buschelthat's why I am not a fan of such feature...
23:10:59amiconnImo that would be worse than short extra gaps (which tell you to fix your files...)
23:11:17sideralamiconn: Typically no, and if, then only an unnoticably small bit of it. (It's unnoticable because removing small silence from big silence doesn't produce artifacts.)
23:11:38sideralBuschel: you're right, the codec can call a generic function
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23:11:54*amiconn knows how these short gaps sound - from playing properly lame-tagged gapless tracks on hwcodec
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23:12:45sideralThe idea is to check for intended silence by verifying that the entire frame is silent
23:13:00sideral(need to go offline for a couple of minutes, will be back)
23:13:24amiconnWell, either the entire block is silent or not, as far as I understand lossy encoding
23:13:37amiconnThere is no half-n-half
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23:18:43Buschelamiconn: correct for transform based lossy codecs, but not for filterbank based ones
23:19:15Buschelimpulse response of the filterbank might be shorter than the frame lenght
23:20:28*Buschel is surprised his notebooks battery is still alive ;)
23:21:14 Quit robin0800 (Quit: Leaving)
23:22:56amiconnBut then mp3 is transform based
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23:30:21sideralamiconn: according to FS #11891's OP, is patch often removes less than a full decoded frame's worth of silence
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