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#rockbox log for 2011-05-30

00:00:18kugelpn1s: are you going to commit it?
00:03:43pixelmabluebroth3r: headphone detection seems to work with my phone, what's the 0002 patch for exactly (I didn't understand the tracker post completely)
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00:08:48pixelmaand I don't hear anything on my phone with "pause on unplug" enabled and the latter patch applied, it's muting and pausing quick enough
00:10:59bluebroth3rpixelma: the second one registers on a different event that gets triggered earlier
00:11:25bluebroth3rbasically without it I still get a short part of the music played through the speakerphone before playback pauses
00:12:15pixelmaok, I guessed that was the second patch for and only tried with it so far
00:13:11*pixelma wonders how "Rewind before resume" works across track changes (it doesn't probably?)
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00:15:15wodzhello, I would like to commit this: I'll split this probably into 2 commits (utils and everything else). Please review if I have missed something.
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00:19:28sideralpixelma: No, it doesn't
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00:21:30pixelmawell yes, like the manual rewind too, should have thought of that first
00:21:35n1skugelp: i'll wait for sideral to give it a whirl
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00:42:55sharky44Hey all, I hacked together a freecell game plugin using Antoine Cellerier's code from solitaire.c −− Right now, I have it (mostly) working for the Sansa E200 (mostly just need to work out button configuration for other targets). I can post it on flyspray or whatever if anyone is interested.
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00:52:41sharky44Based on the incredible response, I'll just go ahead and submit it to the tracker... :-)
00:53:02sideralsharky44: Yes, please do!
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00:53:25sideralYay! Freecell on Rockbox!
00:53:29sideralBetter? ;)
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03:03:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:32:33 Nick S_a_i_n_t is now known as [Saint] (
03:34:02notlisteningHi all, are there and android devs here?
03:34:48[Saint]notlistening: It's better to just ask your question.
03:35:02[Saint]You might find that what you want to ask isn't actually Android specific at all.
03:35:36notlisteningLol when will it be released on the market, and what the hold up?
03:36:17[Saint]"possibly never" (we never give release dates), and "it's still in development".
03:36:46 Quit Scromple (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:37:28[Saint]If you want to use it, grab a premade build from the wiki (it's "as-is", will potentially have major problems, and no bugs can be lodged against it), or, set up a build environment and build your own.
03:37:49notlisteningI have been running it for months
03:37:55notlisteningI build it just
03:38:09notlisteningso I know there are bugs
03:38:25[Saint], that makes your question really hard to understand.
03:38:37[Saint]I mean, I understand the question, but not why you asked it.
03:38:40notlisteningbut was just fishing for where the people that were working on it have got to ;)
03:38:57JdGordonIt seems unlikely that an offcial build will get on the market any time soon
03:39:05[Saint]It's still in development, it's not "stalled".
03:39:22notlisteningOk JdGordon that is the kind of answer I was after
03:39:52[Saint]It's not really Android specific. It's the same for all targets.
03:40:06[Saint]It won't be released until it meets a certain set of criteria
03:40:15notlisteningYeah i know Saint I have been following rockbox for five years or so
03:40:36[Saint]that makes your question even more difficult to parse the nature of then ;)
03:40:44notlisteningThose criteria would be intresting to read for my understanding
03:41:20notlisteninglol don't over analyse it saint, it will make you head hurt
03:42:08[Saint]There's still several things that (by my understanding) are still very much up in the air regarding the direction of the Android port.
03:42:17*JdGordon puts no market release down to internal politics! :D
03:42:52[Saint]And the fact that if it was released presently, it would make a terrible impression :P
03:43:09notlisteninglol JdGordon funny that suggested that, I was reading some of the mailing archives
03:43:27JdGordoni will ban you if you say lol once more!
03:43:41JdGordonmy head hurts enough as it is!
03:44:33notlisteningFeel the love from the rockbox devs
03:44:46[Saint]the state of the android port can be roughly worked out by the blurbs for the various states of porting:
03:45:09[Saint]presently, it's classed as "unusable" "Work has begun on porting Rockbox to these players, but much remains before they are usable"
03:45:41[Saint]next step would be "Unstable" "Rockbox runs on these players, but is incomplete, less usable or has problems that limit it to advanced users" and it's not *quite* there yet.
03:47:10[Saint]I guess it *technically* meets the requirements for unstable...
03:47:18notlisteningWas there a hosting strategy agreed on ie market, stable and daily releases?
03:47:57[Saint]Nope. That's still "distant/not-so-distant future" stuff.
03:48:01notlisteningwas that part of the problem?
03:48:37[Saint]What are you seeing as "the problem"?
03:49:19notlisteningproblem being that everyone has an opinion about how to do it
03:50:32notlisteningThat is what i am trying to work out is why has it lost momentum?
03:50:45[Saint]What makes you think it has?
03:50:54[Saint]It's still in active development.
03:52:14notlisteningMy RSS reader does not go back far enough to the last android commit
03:52:24notlisteningI see that as an indication
03:52:40JdGordonyou've been here for 5 years, you shoudl know thats now how development works here
03:52:47JdGordonall changes affect everyone
03:53:08notlisteningfair enough
03:53:20[Saint]and, your RSS reader doesn't go back to....yesterday?!?
03:53:31[Saint](get a new RSS reader :P)
03:53:37notlisteningRead the commit saint it was rbutil actually :P
03:54:04JdGordonutils/themeeditor/ [diff]
03:54:04JdGordonDominik Riebeling
03:54:06JdGordonYesterday 18:44r29931: Android: rework r29929 AndroidManifest.xml version handling.
03:54:13JdGordonignore the first 2 lines there
03:54:40notlisteningor a least with the make file
03:54:47[Saint]29931 also
03:55:16notlisteningok i was not looking for argue about it
03:55:24[Saint]All I'm getting from this is some opinion that you seem to have formed in your head for whatever reason...that simply isn't true.
03:55:41[Saint]I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise, no do I care much to put the effort into doing so.
03:56:10[Saint]There's also a lot of recent activity on Flyspray re: Android fwiw
03:56:49notlisteningWell in the distant future when i see it on the market my opinion will have changed
03:57:06notlisteningand i thought we are not supposed to report bugs on android
03:57:18[Saint]You're not.
03:57:39notlisteningok ;)
03:57:43[Saint]Flyspray handles those too, y'know ;)
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04:07:48notlisteningRight opinion changed
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04:09:12notlisteningI will go away and wait patiently, thanks again
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05:30:54*[Saint] adds the (rather long winded) forum post,28083.msg181583.html#msg181583 for feedback regarding his RaaA theme candidate.
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05:31:54[Saint]bluebroth3r, JdGordon, if either of you have any outstandig ideas regarding the theme...can you direct it there from now? thanks.
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05:42:41JdGordonthe themesite really needs to start supporting RaaA screen sizes :)
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07:03:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:07:53JdGordon[Saint]: in the wps, can you make the volume display open the volume popup?
07:08:31[Saint]....Yes ;)
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07:09:30JdGordonand remove it completly in the sbs and change it to the hotkey :)
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09:52:32[Saint]JdGordon: You wanted the volume icon to open the volume popup in the .wps?
09:52:41[Saint]as well as the right popup tab?
09:53:02[Saint]I've done so...but, having two things perform the same function seems...odd.
09:54:04[Saint]Also.....our "mute" implementation *sucks*!
09:56:06[Saint]Or perhaps my interpretation of how mute should work is broken? IMO, if mute is applied changing the volume shouldn't do anything...currently the implementation of mute that exists is essentially just "set volume to min".
09:58:57JdGordonyes, although I would accept that the volume icon should mute if you dont like 2 things doing the same thing
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11:03:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:05:27*[Saint] notices that database inito on RaaA says "Press OFF to cancel"
11:05:43[Saint]Um....what the heck button/function/whatever is "OFF"?
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11:08:09JdGordonyes, RaaA isnt *wuite* finished :p
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11:12:24*[Saint] is shocked, shocked and appalled.
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11:54:05*[Saint] is beginning to think that his "Shut Down" menu entry isn't doing *exactly* the right thing...
11:54:33[Saint]Alternatively, that RaaA isn't doing exactly the right thing to announce to the system that it is indeed running.
11:55:11[Saint]RaaA not showing up in the task manager while it's running unless there's actually playback at the time seems a bit broken.
11:55:32[Saint](I've also seen other forum users report that RaaA fails to show up under running applications)
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13:03:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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13:09:42[Saint]bluebroth3r: With your latest patch, my RaaA install is just slightly over 10MB
13:10:04[Saint]which is *extremely* impressive when I know that ~6MB of that is GNU Unifont ;P
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13:44:44bluebroth3r[Saint]: your numbers are wrong.
13:46:11bluebroth3rUnifont is around 8MB in bdf format. The file on the player uses Rockbox fnt format, and that is about 2MB. Plus, on the internal memory you only have the compressed version of the file (i.e. the one in which is, judging from a zip more like 650kB
13:51:31[Saint]Ah, yeah...derp, I was guesstimating from the .bdf in "non-human-readable" format.
13:51:42[Saint]It's 1.83MB on device.
13:53:04[Saint]For some reason I was using the size of the .bdf format when I first figured out what the space-hog was...I completely forgot about the conversion to .fnt
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15:38:30JdGordon[Saint]: ping? or too late?
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16:16:49webguest444OK.. Do zou guzs actuallz WANT people to jouin the forum ?
16:17:07webguest444I#ve been trzing for three dazs now
16:18:07webguest444Anyway, the ipod-classic build is buggz LIKE HELL!
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16:21:35gevaertsHm, maybe that's why that port is designated as "unusable"?
16:25:51kugel[Saint]: what should "mute" do in your opinion other than turning the volume to min/zero?
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16:47:03[Saint]kugel: It should prevent volume changes from "un-muting".
16:49:09kugelI've never seen that anywhere
16:49:43bluebrother[Saint]: that's definitely debatable. My laptop for instance also disables mute when changing volume, and I prefer it that way
16:50:28kugelevery hard- wor software music player went down to zero and allowed me to go back to normal volume from it
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16:51:54kugelin fact, I would be suprised if I press "increase volume by one step" and it would go from zero to "whatever voume it was before I muted" (which might be 100% volume)
16:52:45[Saint]Angry Birds does it. For instance. IMO I don't believe that I should be un-muted if I accidentally happen to bump the volume controls after having muted the volume.
16:53:02bluebrother[Saint]: btw, did you consider posting screenshots in that theme thread?
16:53:21[Saint]yep, I even said so in the thread.
16:53:33[Saint]I just didn't have the time to do so.
16:53:37bluebrotherah, missed that part :)
16:55:47[Saint]in respect to mute, obviously it's a difference of opinion...but I think that while muted, mute == "no sound"....even if the volume is changed in that period, and that when you "un-mute" it should return to the volume it was when it was muted.
16:57:54kugelpressing un-mute should go to the last level, pressing any volume button should not IMO
16:58:31[Saint]Otherwise you can mute playback, stick the phone in your pocket or whatever, accidentally bump a volume control (HW or otherwise) and defeat the purpose of having muted.
16:58:56kugelat the same time, if you pressed a volume button (whether or not un-mute) you should no longer be considered muted
16:59:43kugelHW should increase by 1, whether or not muted. it should not go to the last volume before muting
17:00:23[Saint]yeah...I agree Idea where you pulled that from, I don't disagree with that.
17:00:45[Saint]I just don't think that a volume change should un-mute.
17:02:14[Saint]On a similar topic, I'm getting the "RaaA blasts you with full volume until you adjust the volume when RaaA is running at least once" thing again :-S
17:03:16[Saint](for example, RaaA's volume can be set to -98db, yet plackback commences at full volume until you change the volume either up or down while RaaA is running.
17:03:38***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:04:48 Part Zagor
17:06:03[Saint]this only seems to happen on the first run after RaaA has been shut down, or from a reboot, but it's annoying when it happens especially when the headphones aren't plugged in and you're in the library as happened to me twice today.
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17:46:38*[Saint] wonders, if he wanted to increase the value of the timeout for button_repeat, where he might do so.
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17:49:27kugel[Saint]: in the source? button.c or .h, IIRC
17:50:11[Saint]Yeah, thanks. Turned out I misspelled it, grep is only your friend when you spell what you're looking for right ;)
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17:58:21kugel[Saint]: on touchscreens you will get button presses inbetween for changed coordinations
17:58:48kugelor coordinates
17:58:55*[Saint] has a hard time parsing that.
18:00:02[Saint]I feel that the value needs to be increased somewhat...the repeat rate is too quick IMO, it can be quite difficult to not accidentally trigger a "press&hold" when you're aiming for just a "single press".
18:00:21kugelif you move the finger without releasing you will observe button presses reported by the code (no BUTTON_REPEAT) for the changed x/y values of the press
18:00:48[Saint]I understand, however, that if I mess with this (from reading the code) that it will affect smooth scrolling adversely. :/
18:01:38kugelthat shouldn't be affected
18:02:29[Saint]For *foo and &foo touch areas...the value is simply too small.
18:02:47[Saint](as I have observed with my clumsy man-hands, anyway)
18:03:25kugelit's no different from real buttons
18:03:46[Saint]perhaps this is something that needs to be handled in the skin code alone, instead of messing with the global repeat rate.
18:04:26*kugel has been happy with the repeat rate since the beginning
18:04:39[Saint]Good for you ;)
18:08:35[Saint]I'm happy with the repeat rate in general...but I think that "hold" style touch areas trigger too quickly. When a theme relies on that type of touch area rather heavily, it becomes quite noticable.
18:12:14[Saint]Short of making yet another configurable option to sit on the tracker and almost certainly never get accepted, I'm at a loss how to handle it. It seems to be a value that can differ greatly in how it feels depending on the screen.
18:13:23kugelI think such a patch actually rots already for a few month :)
18:13:34[Saint]On my Galaxy, it's fine. On my DEFY, it's awfully hard to not accidentally trigger a "hold" touch event if a press & press&hold touch area share the same screen position.
18:14:19kugelthat's a different issue
18:15:27kugelshort press and long press are "awfully hard" to differentiate?
18:15:56kugelmore different on one phone than on the other?
18:16:45[Saint]which makes me think that there's a difference in the time it takes for some screens to register the touch event.
18:16:52kugelunless time goes faster on the defy it should be no different. this isn't something device dependant
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18:17:24kugel300ms are 300ms, you know
18:17:37[Saint]I realize that it shouldn't be, but my thinking is that some screens are more reesponsive than others.
18:17:46[Saint]*responsive too.
18:18:26kugelyou can try looking at CPU consumption. perhaps it's maxing out on the defy and making it less responsive
18:19:09[Saint]Unfortunately the DEFY is on 2.1, so I don't have a task manager to be able to view the CPU usage.
18:19:39[Saint](and on both the galaxy and the defy RaaA doesn't list any CPU usage stats in debug)
18:19:43[Saint]Oh, ah...good point.
18:23:02[Saint]both sit at 0% idle (is that right? guess so) and 7~12% during playback.
18:23:35[Saint]it's not exactly the easiest to read, though.
18:24:28kugelyou can pass -m X to limit the number of shown processes
18:24:55kugelyou probably need to disable the "don't do screen redraws when in background" to measure the high load in the wps
18:25:50kugelor you run top from adb shell when you're usb connected and rockbox is in the foreground
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18:30:12[Saint]Is there any compile time magic I can do to get the debug screen to report the correct (or even approximated) CPU usage stats?
18:30:21[Saint]Or is that vastly device dependant?
18:32:53cottoAre the upgrade issues mentioned in the topic the reason I can't register?
18:34:03kugel[Saint]: no, this simply doesn'T exist in rockbox
18:35:55[Saint]"view buffering thread" lists the CPU frequency I thought?
18:36:13[Saint]I don't have a device handy...but, fairly certain it does.
18:36:15kugelthat's not cpu usage
18:36:30[Saint]Right, well then I worded it badly.
18:37:15[Saint]"is there any compile time magic I can do to have it not constantly report the CPU frequency as 0.00%?"
18:37:17kugeltop (or even htop) is the right tool for this job
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18:58:02gevaertscotto: register where?
19:00:57cottogevaerts, on the wiki
19:01:42gevaertscotto: things aren't really as they should be, but as far as I know people can register. What are you seeing?
19:03:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:04:13cottogevaerts, let me check my cookie settings
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19:07:16cottolooks like that got me further in the process
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19:17:13bertrikIs there some kind of agreement on making every word in a lang file start with an uppercase?
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19:20:22bertrik(I'm looking at the patch in which adds new translated phrases but also changes the upper/lowercasing for a few phrases)
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19:27:25kugelpah the good old title case discussion :-)
19:28:28kugelpwe agreed that sentence case is the right thing but nobody changed the language files yet
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19:52:05rudi_sHi. Is it normal that when changing the volume the number (in dB) is displayed only in the main menu, but not in the while playing screen (Clip+)?
19:55:49[Saint]looking at the .wps (which I apparently wrote), yes.
19:56:11domonokyrudi_s: that depends on the theme you use.. you can change it if you want :-)
19:56:25rudi_s[Saint]: Would it make sense to change it?
19:56:55rudi_sdomonoky: I don't know rockbox's internals yet, will have a look once I have time.
19:57:24[Saint]rudi_s: On a device with such a limited screen...I'm going to go with "not really, no".
19:57:53rudi_s[Saint]: But it's displayed in the main menu, why not in the while-playing-screen?
19:58:04[Saint]there's lots of other themes available via the themesite that may/may not meet your requirements.
19:59:46[Saint]rudi_s: That's just the way the default theme works...none of the devices show the statusbar in the .wps
19:59:53[Saint](for the default theme)
20:00:26rudi_s[Saint]: Ok, thank you.
20:01:07[Saint]That's not saying of course that it's set in stone and cannot be changed.
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20:02:00rudi_s[Saint]: Good ;-) I'll try to change it and report back if it looks good.
20:03:34[Saint]There's a line that stares specifically "Disable status bar" with a tag "%wd", changing that to "%we" wil enable the status bar, but it will almost certainly draw over something unless the x values of various things aren't moved down to match.
20:04:01kugelpdomonoky: long time no see! o/
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20:07:56[Saint]Hmmm...yes, enabling the statusbar in the .wps on the Clip(s) almost certainly won't "just work".
20:08:32pixelma[Saint]: I think cabbiev2 should do the same as the built-in statusbar and exchange the bitmap with numeric while adjusting and this is possible, especially now that everything has been put into viewports
20:08:44pixelmavolume that is
20:09:15pixelmaalso, long presses and short presses are also hard to control on my phone
20:09:36[Saint]pixelma: Didn't you do that at devcon last year (for at least one theme)?
20:09:45[Saint](or am I remembering incorrectly?)
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20:10:47[Saint]re: long/short presses...good to hear, well...kinda. Good that it's not just me, bad that it's hard for you as well and almost certainly won't change... :/
20:12:26pixelmaa bit. It was done by JdGordon when introducing the %mv tag but only for the Clip's port. During last DevCon Clip port and Iriver remote port which are same resolution, the latter without OLED and the yellow/blue split, were unified by funman and that got rid of the dB display
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20:15:47[Saint]pixelma: I've added it to my ToDo list, but at present the RaaA/touch themes are my primary concern. Things are settling down there, and I have a free day tomorrow (touch wood) so I might be able to get the needed changes done then.
20:16:23[Saint]It's not exactly a huge change so all going well I should be able to get it done.
20:16:29pixelmaI was thinking it could be something for DevCon for me (and help would be nice) - also a FMS port would be nice
20:16:56[Saint]Oh...ok. Well, I don't want to steal any work from you ;)
20:17:19pixelmaI'm sure I'll find something
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20:18:43[Saint]the .fms is something I have been thinking about for quite some time now also.
20:18:59[Saint]It's essentially a matter of duplicating the .wps for the major part.
20:19:24[Saint]then, making some minor alterations to display FM data in place of metadata.
20:19:46sideralSaint: Have you seen FS #12132 - tagnavi: Support "basename" in formats and conditions; replace <Untagged> in track views?
20:20:22saratogadoes the database still crash if you build it with no music files?
20:20:39[Saint]sideral: Yes
20:20:40pixelma[Saint]: could be worked on together - maybe the colour screens for you and monochrome/grey for me?
20:20:51[Saint]saratoga: Yes, it does
20:21:07sideralsaratoga: Yes. But I'm working on it (FS #9093).
20:21:54sideralsaratoga: My latest patch seems to have an issue with autoupdate that I still need to sort out (it keeps updating again and again, forever)
20:22:10[Saint]sideral: No, I haven't (accidentally highlighted the wrong person there). I've been using it since you showed me the tweak though, so I'll pop in and voice my opinions on the task.
20:23:02sideralSaint: Cool. You can now also display the basename instead of the full file name
20:24:13sideralfile name without the directory paths
20:24:39sideraltry "basename /a/b/c" in any Unix system ;)
20:24:47[Saint]pixelma; Sounds good. I'm not 100% sure of the time delay, but I basically don't sleep anyway so it's certainly possible to work on them together during DevCon ;)
20:25:11pixelmaI noticed ;)
20:25:29sideralBecause pixelma also never sleeps ;)
20:25:46sideralShe waits
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20:51:44bertrikkugel, I'm not completely sure what to do. I don't want to just dismiss the patch because of a few title/sentence case issues.
20:52:53gevaertsI'd say the debate we have is about the *English* text
20:53:25gevaertsAnd translators should be able to decide for their language
20:54:54bertrikgevaerts, true
20:55:09[Saint]...unless of course the descision isn't based on anything in particular.
20:57:10[Saint]If the language actually has a particular style regarding case, then, sure. No reason to force English rules if it doesn't apply for the given languege.
20:57:16[Saint]*language too
20:58:02gevaertsWell yes, but who are we to know?
20:58:27gevaertsSo again, the translator's decision
20:59:02saratogawhich patch?
20:59:36pixelmawhich language?
20:59:44[Saint]Well I guess the translators word just needs to be taken, and if it is indeed incorrect someone who speaks said language will fix it up if it bothers them.
21:00:24[Saint]or, the short version, what gevaerts just said.
21:01:02saratogawhat format is that patch?
21:01:21pixelmado we have a real name of him (despite Ismael)
21:02:26saratoga Ismael Castiñeira Álvarez
21:03:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:05:31sideralI'm trying to get some feed of Wiki changes in some kind of diff format
21:05:39bertrikoh, I was a bit confused about it because of the unusual diff style (not unified)
21:05:44sideral doesn't work (doesn't send out emails)
21:06:11sideral doesn't show a diff, only a short teaser of the topic
21:06:55sideraltrying to automate this using Yahoo Pipes fails because the /wiki/bin/compare/ pages have "robots noindex" set
21:07:11sideralany ideas?
21:07:56sideralZagor perhaps?
21:07:59CIA-58New commit by bertrik (r29934): FS #12139 - Galician translation update by Ismael Castiñeira Álvarez
21:11:41CIA-58r29934 build result: All green
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21:14:18bluebrotherthe front page should really use utf-8
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22:38:00wodzany comments about FS #12137 ?
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22:44:11pixelmais this the Rockchip port?
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22:52:14wodzpixelma: more work in progress. No playback yet
23:03:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:10:38CIA-58New commit by wodz (r29935): Rockchip rk27xx port initial commit. This is still work in progress.
23:10:44CIA-58New commit by wodz (r29936): Rockchip rk27xx utils
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23:15:25CIA-58r29935 build result: 0 errors, 9 warnings (wodz committed)
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23:17:09wodzhmm interesting. Warnings in the files I didn't even touched
23:17:31bluebrothernice. That warn_unused_result thing.
23:17:51bluebrotherI've seen those warnings when building Rockbox Utility in the past. Never got around actually doing something about them though.
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23:20:10CIA-58r29936 build result: All green
23:23:51bluebrotherspeaking about warnings: there is a warning about swap16 and swap32 being redefined from the NDK when building for Android. Should we ignore those macros from the NDK and instead use the ones provided by Rockbox (as done for other macros from SDL)?
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23:41:33*[Saint] wonders if kugelp saw pixelma's post earlier regarding button repeat times, and it making & and * touch areas difficult to use.
23:42:50pixelmasince I only use the repeat action I have no problems with those, but I get the context menu instead of simple select more often than I want to etc.
23:43:14[Saint]I've made a build just now with a 500ms delay instead, and it feels perfect on my DEFY.
23:43:24pixelma[Saint]: I'll let him try on my phone ;)
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23:51:27pixelmaI could imagine that it has to do with the responsiveness of the touchscreen itself, especially on capacitive ones - how close the finger needs to be to be registered or so
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23:51:59pixelmajust an idea
23:52:09[Saint]Yeah, I mentioned that earlier...but apparenty "it's not device specific".
23:55:59kugelwell, it *shouldn't* be, anyway
23:56:49kugelit apparently is, at least a bit, according to your devices

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