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#rockbox log for 2011-06-10

00:00:21kugelthis is the main aspect of buflib, to reduce fragmentation
00:01:11sideralBecause (1) their allocation is mostly static / init-time only, (2) dealing with moving data is hard / complex for them, and (3) the benefits for the system are likely minor.
00:01:40sideralI think it's better to tolerate some fragmentation if at all possible
00:01:59kugelthe benefit doesn't depend on (for example) dircache, but what's hapenning around it
00:02:16kugelif something is freed before dircache, the hole wants to be filed
00:03:01 Join bug2000 [0] (~bug@unaffiliated/bug2000)
00:03:33sideralOne idea that crossed my mind: Would it make sense to simply hand out buffer space to clients in fixed-size chunks (regions, arenas) and let the clients do the entire high-level alloc management themselves, possibly with the help of a lib? That would always allocate/free big chunks (at the expense of some internal fragmentation), and no data would ever have to be moved around. Could the audio / codec code deal with multiple noncontiguous big ch
00:03:43pixelmasideral: I didn't see freqmod talking too often in the other channel (though that's a bit in this channel's nature) anyway but thought he would read it from time to time
00:03:55bug2000sideral: I found it! I think.
00:04:03pixelmaso I guess it needs a bit of patience
00:04:30sideralpixelma: OK, thanks for your efforts!
00:04:50kugelfreeing (always) creates holes, no matter how you do the allocation
00:05:12bug2000sideral: I think I know how to reproduce it.
00:05:49sideralbug2000: cool! shall I reopen the FS task?
00:06:02bug2000sideral: Ya.
00:06:18bug2000sideral: I believe you can reproduce it by deleting a file using Rockbox.
00:06:32bug2000Or at least thats how I think I've done it.
00:08:06sideralbug2000: OK, I've reopened FS #12129 <>. I'm keen on seeing what you found! :)
00:08:07bluebrother-bot Duplicate database entries (bugs, unconfirmed)
00:08:30kugelsideral: I'm not sure what your suggestion achieves what a dumb malloc doesn't
00:10:08sideralkugel: The idea is that there wouldn't be any external fragmentation: One module cannot fragment the memory allocated to another
00:10:51kugelbut each free would leave a "big chunk" hole
00:11:44kugeland big chunks are almost always a memory waste
00:11:49bug2000kugel: Off the record, I love eating Kugel.
00:12:01sideralNo, each high-level free would leave a hole inside the module's arena. The the lowest level, the arena can only deallocated as a whole
00:13:18sideralYes, each module wastes whatever it cannot use of its chunk. But at the lowest level, there wouldn't be any fragmentation from small allocations
00:13:48siderals/The the/At the/
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00:13:51kugelfragmentation from small allocs is better than that from big chunks :)
00:14:25kugelno, we cannot afford wasting memory on big chunks, really
00:14:41sideralNot if you can tolerate noncontiguous big chunks in memory-hungry clients, which is my question actually
00:14:58kugelbuffering can't handle that, no
00:15:54sideralTo me it seemed like a smaller change than making dircache and tagcache fit for moving allocations
00:16:56bug2000sideral: Firefox found a time to die.
00:16:56sideralClients only needing small allocations could also share their arenas, reducing memory waste
00:17:12bug2000sideral: Basically, delete a file using Rockbox firmware. The duplication should happen if I got it right.
00:17:34sideralbug2000: Do you have the dircache enabled?
00:17:55kugelsideral: there's still not negible waste on big chucks. you know we have targets with less than 2MB memory (and 400k audio buffer)
00:17:58bug2000sideral: Where is that in the options?
00:18:08sideralbug2000: Is it the file that you deleted that will get duplicated?
00:18:20kugeland adding support to holes, which are even externally created, to buffering could easily double its code size
00:18:27bug2000sideral: It's EVERYTHING that gets duplicated.
00:19:01sideralbug2000: dircache is in general settings -> system -> disk
00:19:26kugelbtw, if anyone knows how to reduce this Makefile rules to one, I'm all ears:
00:19:51sideralbug2000: can you make a backup of your database files for me, with a small example file set? Perhaps you can reproduce this with a simulator?
00:19:53 Quit ender` (Quit: Little expense had been spared to create the impression that no expense had been spared.)
00:20:35bug2000sideral: I see no "disk" there.
00:20:36sideralkugel: OK, it was only an idea. Moving allocations in a C program frighten me :)
00:20:56bug2000sideral: Sure, just link me to a download link for the linux sansa clipv1.
00:20:59kugelyou surely need to be careful
00:21:03bug2000I can't really firefox right now but I can wget.
00:21:39kugelthe ability for non-movable buffers is actually only meant for the audio buffer, not the other allocs
00:21:48sideralbug2000: Ah, the ClipV1 doesn't support dircache AFAIK
00:22:10bug2000sideral: Then no dir cache :P
00:23:11sideralbug2000: I can't cut you a sim build right now (need to leave in a few minutes). I'm not sure, perhaps we offer sim builds on our web site?
00:23:25bug2000sideral: Firefox is broken :P
00:24:13sideralbug2000: Use konqueror, links, or any other browser?
00:24:26bug2000Yey w3m :P
00:25:35bug2000bah, w32 file >.>
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00:37:57sideralkugel: Look up "pattern rules" in the GNU Make info file
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00:40:25bug2000Yey. Firefox is back.
00:42:00kugelsideral: I have such a rule
00:42:31kugel is the complete makefile
00:43:01kugelthe pattern rule seems to not work for test_*.c and main.c since they're always remade
00:43:31sideralkugel: That pattern rule is for compilation, not linking
00:44:05bug2000sideral: I fail to find the linux simulator.
00:44:08sideralI thought you wanted to remove the redundancy from the link rules?
00:44:44kugelsideral: I don't know how to setup a pattern rule for linking (the binaries have no extension) and it doesn't work for all C files
00:44:45sideralbug2000: Do you feel comfortable compiling your own? It's not difficult.
00:44:58bug2000sideral: Ya, I'm ok with compiling.
00:47:46sideralkugel: The pattern would be like: % : %.o : $(LIB)
00:48:40sideraland then the command can refer to $@, $<, $^ in the usual fashion. And $* returns the string that was matched
00:49:58kugelI don't get how % works. what does it match?
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00:50:53bug2000sideral: svn co sure takes time.
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00:54:47kugelalso makes implicit rules confuse me
00:55:03kugelit's making stuff with rules I never declared
00:55:26sideralbug2000: we also have a git mirror:
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00:56:23sideralkugel: Well, you seem to have specified at least some nonexisting target that Make thinks it can synthesize
00:57:32bug2000sideral: WAHH. It's REALLY late.
00:58:08sideralbug2000: Take your time. I need to go offline anyway shortly
01:00:28kugelsideral: :?
01:00:57kugelhow does % work? how does it know which .o files are meant with %.o?
01:02:32kugelah the all: $(TARGETS) confuses it
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01:07:11sideralkugel: I don't quite remember and would have to RTFM. I think it deduces from the targets it needs to make −− or did you have to specify after the second colon (and dependencies belong into separate dependency rules)? It's late... :)
01:10:33kugelgot it down, I think
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03:36:24jhMikeSDo we consider it kosher to delete posts with attachments someone says are "bad"?
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03:41:22JdGordonbad how? (in the forum you mean?)
03:43:10jhMikeSin flyspray
03:44:03jhMikeSsome bum patches posted in 12021 for the VGM codec
03:50:28JdGordonyeah, delete them
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04:20:51FangsHey can someone tell me if buying a new ipod just to put linux on it is reasonable?
04:21:26FangsAlso is there full functionality with rockbox's linux like any other computer with linux on it?
04:21:44kisakumm ... while linux is simular to rockbox, it is not related to rockbox
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04:22:33[Saint]what is this "linux" of which you speak?
04:22:38Fangsbut would I be able to screw around with kernels
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04:22:42[Saint]Rockbox != linux
04:23:21kisakalso, as far as I know, ipodlinux has not been ported to anything newer than the ipod v5 (ipod video)
04:23:52[Saint]Rockbox is Rockbox, Linux is're you, I'm me, etc. ;)
04:24:21Fangsbut it is italics right?
04:24:34Fangswell it sonds legal enough to me
04:25:09*[Saint] fails to parse the statement.
04:25:29Fangsat the same time I think I'm too fresh to do this solo
04:26:07[Saint]Yes, there is a functional Rockbox port for the iPod Classic, no, it's not Linux. The port is classed as "Unusable" at this stage, however, this does not mean that it's *actually* unusable.
04:26:30[Saint]It's very usable in fact, it just doesn't yet meet the criteria for "Unstable".
04:27:27Fangswell this seems useful. it's not exactly what I was thinking it was, but
04:27:32Fangsjailbreaking just seems so restrictive
04:28:19kisakhow is jailbreaking related to rockbox?
04:28:51FangsRockbox is related to ipods
04:28:55[Saint]Presently, installation requires the use of a third party loader (seperate from Rockbox) called emCORE. The installation is straightforward, however there is no dual-boot, so you will lose the ability to use the Apple firmware (this can be undone, though), and installation also requires formatting the device completely so you'll lose anything that isn't backed up.
04:28:59Fangsolder ipods, but ipods none the less
04:29:27[Saint]Also, there's some issues with USB for some people, and battery life is somewhat reduced compared to the OF.
04:29:48Fangswell it'd be a bare device so Im not worried
04:31:00kisakFangs: jailbreaking is something you do with iOS devices, rockbox has not been ported to those devices
04:31:19[Saint] <−− All you'll need to know re: installing emCORE & Rockbox on the iPod Classic
04:31:59Fangsalright Im thinking it over, yeah I was going to buy the newest. My ipod video has been smashed to bits and disassembled for parts
04:32:23Fangsnot so sure about the rockbox anymore
04:32:33Fangswhat else is rockbox
04:33:09[Saint]WHat on earth do you mean "what else is it"?
04:33:58Fangssince im here and Im not sure I want to buy an old ipod
04:34:13[Saint]There's quite literally no, if you want to buy a Classic, and you don't want to use the original Apple firmware....Rockbox is the only choice.
04:34:25[Saint]The other choice is being happy with the Apple firmware.
04:35:05Fangswhich is cool in it's own right. Niche and all, looking through all the programs
04:35:19kisakalternatively I'd recommend a 4 GB Sansa Fuze and stick a 16GB microSD card in it, to total 20GB overall
04:36:17kisakyou can get the player for $35 or less usually
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04:36:38Fangscool cool, im using a 2nd gen nano with a cracked screen and a partially nonfunctional scroll wheel, so really anything would be an upgrade
04:36:45Fangsconsidering the options....
04:38:14Fangslooks nice and cheaper
04:39:41Fangsooh crossfader you guys are great :D
04:39:47kisakthe only thing about those Fuze models is that the screen cover is quite thin, it's worth the $4 to get a shell to stick the player in
04:40:14Fangsyeah I've got a problem with that
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04:40:41Fangsfall once and it's like $300 gone in seconds
04:41:10kisakhow do you lose $300 on a $35 player?
04:41:42Fangsthe ipod videos weren't cheap
04:41:46[Saint]betting on it to win the Kentucky Derby? ;)
04:42:07Fangsat some point, even though it probably made for 30
04:42:09kisakalso, I've dropped my iPod classic a couple of times over the last couple years
04:42:21Fangsyeah but I had a phone in my pocket as well
04:42:25kisakthe hardcase has protected it well enough
04:42:37Fangsthe screen went crunch against the other screen
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04:45:55FangsAlright well im off
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06:26:45JdGordon[Saint]: whats the latest on the theme?
06:26:56JdGordonI skimmed the logs but didnt see much happening
06:30:27[Saint]I've not had a lot of time to work on it presently.
06:30:48[Saint]I'm poking at a WIP presently that removes the tabs (but still retains the functionality)
06:31:13JdGordonchange the tabs to something that looks more "buttony" and should be fine
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06:32:14[Saint]I'm removing them completely. Right now, the plan of action is to launch the context popup with the current track text, and the volume popup with the volume icon.
06:32:54[Saint]it'd be kinda handy if the touch area "none" respected */& seems it doesn't?
06:33:25[Saint]Oh....that's right, I also need to poke at the source to get %cs working.
06:33:53[Saint](well, it works...just the "playlist" and "ptichscreen" values don't display)
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06:35:16[Saint]I'll poke you as soon as I've got something I feel is worth testing.
06:35:45JdGordonits 4 lines of code :)
06:35:58JdGordonoh, you mean the skin?
06:36:16[Saint]Yeah...I know, I've just not had the time for much/any Rb hacking over the past week or so.
06:36:27[Saint]Real life keeps getting in the way :P
06:36:37JdGordondamn real life!
06:36:45[Saint]And yeah, I did mean the theme.
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09:48:00bug2000This is one annoying bug. I was able to reproduce it last night and now I can't.
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10:01:06sideralI'm feeling with you, bug2000. I'm following several of those on our tracker :)
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10:01:58bug2000sideral: It's just WEIRD.
10:02:04sideralOne suggestion: log your experiments (changes, actions, and observations) to a text file.
10:02:35[Saint]"Reason for closing: PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!" ;)
10:03:07sideralbug2000: Perhaps it only triggers if you delete a file that was previously tracked by the database?
10:03:18[Saint]I'm sure that'd get rid of a lot of the open bugs on the tracker :P
10:04:07bug2000sideral: Pretty sure I did generate a new database for it to work with.
10:05:33sideralbug2000: If it's a Heisenbug, you must look away to allow it to happen :)
10:13:23[Saint]forum admins: tinajane wants a ban.
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10:42:21*GodEater prods @ torne with a stick
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11:56:35TorneGodEater: hi
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12:15:08GodEaterI've got the details of that VM
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13:26:51bug2000Why are the list and home button on the fuze reversed?
13:28:32Tornereversed compared to what?
13:28:49Tornewe generally don't care about the original firmware's behaviour, and prefer to make button mappings mroe or less consistent across rockbox instead
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15:11:27TorneALL COMMITTERS: if you haven't put your email into the spreadsheet yet, please do so ASAP. If you don't know what I'm talking about, PM me for a link :)
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15:44:33GodEaterTorne: have you managed to get the import working at full speed now?
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15:44:56TorneGodEater: I have it working how we will want it to work, we just need the author mapping
15:45:01TorneSpeed is another matter
15:45:07Tornebut i don't really care
15:45:11Tornemy server can just sit and churn
15:45:17GodEaterwell I was warned that box was slow
15:45:23TorneI'm not doing it on porpoise
15:45:26Tornei'm doing it on my server
15:45:31GodEateroh ok
15:45:34Tornei'll just send a tarball over when it's done
15:45:39Tornemy machien is way faster indeed :)
15:45:54GodEatercan we not give this task to preglow?
15:46:02GodEaterwho has the most ninja server evar?
15:46:08TorneIt won't help a lot
15:46:14TorneIt's not that slow.
15:46:23TorneI expect it will take well under 24 hours :)
15:46:28Torneso fuck it
15:46:38Tornei jsut need the author mapping, is the thing
15:46:45GodEaterwhere's the bottle neck then?
15:46:52Tornehashing stuff, i expect
15:47:04Torneso it's probably down to single-core performance
15:47:16Torneand my server has reasonably fast/modern cores
15:47:29Torneyou probably can't manage to go more than *twice* as quick, so who cares.
15:47:36GodEaterisn't it still running minecraft too ? ;)
15:47:43Tornei have multiple cores
15:47:46Torneminecraft can use the others ;)
15:48:23Tornei'm looking at setting gerrit up on the machine while i wait to see if anyone else is going to fill in the trix
15:48:34Tornewe can decide what to do about people who haven't responded at some point
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15:49:23Tornegah, why does the headless JRE still depend on cups and freetype
15:49:39kugelthe server of my lecturer is pretty fast, 8 core
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15:49:57Tornegit doesn't parallelise much/atall
15:50:00Torneso hey.
15:52:37kugelZagor: did you do anything w.r.t to android in the build system since devcon?
15:52:51kugelstill getting the sdk version error
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15:58:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:00:35Zagorkugel: you mean other than add it?
16:01:11kugelwhy do I still get the sdk error?
16:01:34Zagorare you sure your build client has the path set up correctly?
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16:04:17Zagoryes, but does your not set the path?
16:04:42kugelwhy should it? it's exported
16:06:00Zagorjust checking
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16:10:05kugelZagor: did it work at the devcon already? wasn't updated since then
16:10:25Zagoryes it did
16:11:29kugelI told you about that error at the devcon already
16:12:25Zagorwell, it's difficult to debug a problem I cannot reproduce
16:13:52kugelZagor: adding the tools folder to PATH helped
16:14:44kugelI expected ANDROID_{S,N}DK_PATH to be sufficient, though, as those are needed for building
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17:05:59kugelpgevaerts: I mostly finished implementing the buflib enhancements
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17:34:48*[Saint] wonders about RaaA and the build system...
17:34:53[Saint]How is signing handled?
17:35:11TorneIt isn't
17:35:21TorneThat's one ofd the reasons it's not being built successfully there yet
17:35:31TorneWe discussed it at devcon and have some ideas.
17:36:17[Saint]basically all that can be done is build up to point of signing, then pass the build back to a trusted central machine....or have just one trusted machine handle all
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17:36:49[Saint]otherwise you'd need to uninstall each time, and, that'd suck.
17:37:23Tornewe're probably going to end up actually authenticating clients somehow
17:37:26Torneand choosing which ones to trust
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17:37:37GodEater_and then sign builds from them
17:37:42Torneit's not okay to just let clients build unsigned binaries and have the server sign it because anyone can connect as a client and upload anything
17:37:46GodEater_from what I recall of the talk
17:38:03*[Saint] nods.
17:38:04TorneYeah, so we'll either have the trusted clients sign it with their own keys and then the master can resign them
17:38:15Torneor we will just authenticate the slave/master connection
17:38:18[Saint]I've been wondering how the signing would work with the build system for some time now.
17:38:30Torneprobably the trusted clients will be "ones run by committers"
17:38:39GodEater_I'm trying to work out which is the easier to implement
17:39:12GodEater_I think signing the builds from each trusted client is probably easier
17:39:21GodEater_rather than authenticating the connection
17:39:29[Saint]multiple machines+resigning would be faster...but one trusted machine "easier"..I assume?
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17:40:09GodEater_Torne: the alternative is we send out the Rockbox master key to all trusted clients?
17:40:27Tornei'd vote for not doing that on general principle unless it proves to be really hard to resign
17:40:30GodEater_though I guess that risks the entire system in the event of a client compromise
17:40:41Torneyeah. revocation.
17:41:02[Saint]Not handing out the key should be avoided, if possible.
17:41:17GodEater_nice double negative there [Saint]
17:42:23kugelp(re)signing trusted builds on the master very doable doesn't it?
17:42:48Tornekugelp: should be,m unless the android tools are terrible
17:43:22kugelpTorne: I think you can just repack the apk and sign again
17:43:38Torneis there some easy way to verify the signature, though?
17:44:16kugelpwhatever jarsigner can do
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17:59:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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18:22:56Torneok, so i'm not giving up on more people filling in email addresses int he list *yet*, but eventually we will have to as some people are no longer around. What should we do with people who haven't been active for a long time but are still in the commit history? Guess an email for them from committers subscriptions? Use a address? Use something obviously fake?
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18:29:56CIA-58New commit by thomasjfox (r29992): RaaA / sim: Don't abort directory read if we encounter files larger than 2 GB in a directory
18:33:06CIA-58r29992 build result: All green
18:36:16*Torne builds a list of everyone who hasn't committed recently for comparison
18:39:51Torneheh, there's 53 usernames that haven't committed since before 2008
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18:49:16[Saint]Hi hobby16, welcome to the channel. This channel is specific to Rockbox, if you have a question regarding ROckbox just ask away. If you're looking for a social channel, this isn't the right place ;)
18:51:34linuxstbTorne: Can email addresses be "corrected" at a later date if old committers come forward?
18:52:23TorneNot once we publish the repository and people start using it
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18:52:35TorneYou don't have to use the same email forever, so if they come back and start committing again they can use whatever they like
18:52:35linuxstbTorne: Also, I assume you've noticed some users are there twice? e.g. I have been both linuxstb and dave, Bagder has also been dast
18:52:47thomasjfoxlinuxstb: That would mess up the commit history -> new SHA1 ids
18:52:50Tornebut we can't change the address in old commits without destroying the history
18:53:06TorneThis is why the conversion I'm going to do is going to break existing git repos cloned from our git mirror ;)
18:53:14Tornebecause that mirror doesn't remap usernames at all and just uses useless strings
18:53:37Tornelinuxstb: so yeah. I can, technically, replace the addresses while i'm still testing it
18:53:44Tornefilter-branch is faster than doing the whole import/conversion again
18:53:49Tornebut once we publish it you can't do that any more
18:54:03Torneand yes, i know some people are in there multiple times
18:54:06Tornethat's fine
18:54:14Tornethose will just get folded together
18:54:23Tornezagor is even more people since he is also root and (no author) :)
18:55:52Tornebut anyway. yeah. we will have to decide what is going to be recorded as the "official" history
18:56:20Torneand the ability to change our minds drops off extremely rapidly once we are using git publicly :0
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18:59:31Tornei poked more stats btw and about 50% of the usernames on the list have committed in the last 18 months
18:59:50Torneso the other 50% may well not be paying much attention :)
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19:12:21amiconnTorne: We might be able to get some committer->email mappings from the ml archives.
19:12:32amiconnThe question is whether we want that
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20:30:34Torneamiconn: indeed
20:30:34Torneamiconn: i'm not sure i want to just fill it in for people
20:30:49wodzTorne: You refered to some spreadsheet earlier today - what's that?
20:31:06Tornewodz: i sent a mail to -committers
20:31:24Tornewe're collecting email addresses for the git migration, for what you want to be associated with your commits
20:31:38Tornesince svn uses just a username wheraesa git uses realname <email>
20:32:00wodzhmm, I am not subscribed to -commiters that explain why I missed the context.
20:32:05TorneYou should be
20:32:11Tornebut yeah i just pm'ed you the link
20:32:24Tornefill in the email address you want me to use for the git migration, next to your username
20:32:34Torneand correct your real name if it's spelt wrong or not formatted right ;)
20:33:36amiconnWhat are you going to do if committers have more than one username? Will you merge them?
20:33:59Tornethey dont' need to be unique
20:34:08Tornethere's no actual "account" or anything here
20:34:24Torneit's literally just throwing the svn usernames away and replacing them with an arbitrary string formatted as something that includes an email address.
20:34:28Torneso it doesn't have to be 1:1 :)
20:34:50amiconnSo how does one authenticate?
20:34:59Torneunrelated to this.
20:35:07Torneif we go with gerrit, you authenticate with an ssh pubkey
20:35:10Torneor a generated password
20:35:15Torneand whatever username you choose on gerrit
20:35:18Tornewhich is up to you
20:35:24Torneit's all self-service at that end
20:35:33TorneThis is just for how to identify authorship for existing commits in history
20:35:37Torneit has nothing to do with access control
20:36:18Torneif we don't go with gerrit then it may be slightly differnt but generally ssh public key auth is how it's done with git
20:41:43TorneI'll have a gerrit demo running sometime over the weekend, and will put up some instructions on how to get set up and try it out, so you can see what you think.
20:41:43Tornewe have a machine to host it that isn't in my living room now, so it's got enough bandwidth to have a full copy of the rockbox tree ;)
20:41:43wodzhmm is '+' sign valid in email address?
20:41:43Tornewodz: yes
20:41:43DBUGEnqueued KICK Torne
20:41:43Tornelots of things don't like it, but it is valid by the RFCs
20:41:43Tornewodz: if you quote it almost everything is valid
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 1
20:41:43Torne"Hi There I'm Some Guy@231q535%%3" is a valid email address
20:41:43jhMikeSTorne: you sent something to committers about the spreadsheet? I'm not seeing it :\
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 2
20:41:43TornejhMikeS: yesterday? day before?
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 3
20:41:43Tornespawned a 20+ post long argument about real names?
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 4
20:41:43jhMikeSwaaaay back there ... lol
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 5
20:41:43Torneamiconn: i'm tempted to go with for the people who haven't replied
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 6
20:41:43Torneafter some deadline
20:41:43DBUGEnqueued KICK jhMikeS
20:41:43jhMikeSI'm not sure if bagder got my request to setup a address
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 7
20:41:43TornejhMikeS: well you can put it in now anyway
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 8
20:41:43Torneit's not going to receive any mail any time soon
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 9
20:41:43Tornewe are unliekly to actually switch for at least a week or two :)
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 10
20:41:43Torneamiconn: we can redirect them to some holding location or something until people come back to "claim" their mail, I guess?
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 11
20:41:43Torneamiconn: seems like a better option than guessing and publishing an address they don't want published.
20:41:43bertrikmaybe wait at least until release
20:41:43***Alert Mode level 12
20:41:43Tornebertrik: yes, probably
20:41:43gevaertsYes, it does seem wise to wait ubtil the release
20:41:56TorneI can still bring the git infrastructure up while we are still using svn, though
20:42:08Torneit's not a problem to import new commits from svn as long as nobody is committing real work to git yet
20:42:18Tornewe can have it up to look at and experiment with
20:43:05Torneit's not any different to the current git mirror in principle, it's just this version will have proper contributor names/addresses instead of dummy ones
20:43:12Torneand the branch/tag history will be slighly different
20:43:22wodzTorne: we need to sponsor you t-shirt with GO GIT or something :-)
20:43:22Torne(i am preserving all branches and tags because it's easy and doesn't really make things any bigger) :)
20:43:31Tornewodz: you realise i still don't actually like git
20:43:35Torneand would rather use something else ;)
20:43:45Torneit's ust that if we are going to use git i at least want to see it done properly ;)
20:44:28TorneMost people who have committed in the last year or so have done it
20:44:36Tornethe majority of the blanks are from people who aren't really around any more
20:44:48Torneor at least not actually submitting to svn
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20:47:12wodzabout updating wiki - TowerOfRockbox needs update with new record
20:49:05jhMikeSI have a small helicopter I could fly into it
20:49:42gevaertsSpeaking of which, what's the status of the devcon minutes and the google blog?
20:50:00TorneOh crap yes
20:50:04TorneSomeone still needs to write that
20:50:16Tornewould someone like to write that up this weekend? :) :) :)
20:50:18TorneI suck at writing
20:50:25Torneand maybe pick some photos
20:50:31Torne(i don't have any photos)
20:51:00gevaertsI half understood that GodEater was doing somethibg, but I'm not sure
20:51:44***Alert Mode OFF
20:51:50Tornehe implied he might
20:51:51Torneanyway if we can get that done say, within the next week, that'd be great
20:51:51Torneotherwise cat will probably bug me
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20:52:46CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
20:52:46*Torne heads home, will be back later to check if any of the people who haven't filled in the list are actually on irc ;)
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20:55:05jhMikeSLinusN surely must be involved here :)
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21:02:02kugelpwe definitely owe Torne some beer for doing this git transition work
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21:39:51kugelpI have one question w.r.t. to buflib_alloc_maximum()
21:40:18kugelpbuflib has the handle table at the end of its buffer. for new allocations the handle table needs to be enlarged
21:40:38kugelpwhich might fail if buflib_alloc_maximum() handed out memory there
21:40:58gevaertsCan that ever actually happen?
21:41:24kugelpso, I'm thinking how to solve this. a) reserve sufficiently enough handles in _maximum(), b) ask the allocation to make space at the end, or c) both
21:42:20kugelpit's unlikely to happen since de-allocated handles are reused before enlarging the table
21:42:23gevaertsI mean, if you don't shrink after calling buflib_alloc_maximum(), something is wrong
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21:43:07kugelpthe shrink can possibly free space at the front and not at the end of the allocation (i.e. audio buffer)
21:44:19kugelpalso the user code ideally shouldn't be concerned with the handle table at the end (or even know it exists)
21:46:03gevaertsMaybe add a rule that says that non-movable allocations can only shrink on one end? Would that hurt things?
21:46:17kugelpI have implemented b) currently, a) is easy to implement additionally so we'd have c)
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21:46:59gevaertsWell, it depends on what "sufficient" means
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21:47:49kugelpperhaps 64?
21:47:51gevaertsSo I'd say b, and possibly c, and insist that if you want a buffer at a fixed address, you can only shrink while keeping the start address the same
21:48:26gevaertsIf you do that, the a) bit is only an optimisation and it's not critical if you get the number a bit too small
21:48:43kugelpthat breaks my plans to resize the audio buffer at its front, having the pcm buffer (accessed by dma) at the end
21:48:47gevaertsBut I don't know if that rule is realistic given the code
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21:49:19kugelpso, effectively audio would have to stop to make room at the end
21:49:39gevaertsThat's not really very nice, so let's try to avoid it :)
21:51:24kugelp64 is only 256 bytes, and it's *really* unlikely there are going to be 64 simultanous allocations
21:51:51gevaertsSo c) would mean you only move when you happen to get the number wrong I guess, so you only may have to restart playback in rare cases?
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21:52:04kugelpif at all, yes
21:52:12gevaertsright, then I think that's best
21:52:39 Quit mshathlonxp (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:52:45kugelpalright then
21:52:56 Quit mikroflops (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
21:53:08kugelpbtw, I've implemented the API proposed on the ML now (with very minor changes to it)
21:54:20gevaertsWith the extra call to get a pointer? ;)
21:55:04kugelpyes :)
21:55:23kugelp(I've pushed everything to my github)
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21:58:41realoddhey anybody here?
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21:59:59jhMikeSnobody but us chickens
22:01:21GodEater_Torne: I'll try and write up something cat-worthy over the weekend
22:01:23realoddi bet there's chicks out there too
22:01:53realoddcan anyone help me make my ipod recognizable as a midi controller?
22:02:07realoddor help me find some music making software?
22:02:43gevaertsThat's not going to be straightforward
22:03:33gevaertsI *think* midi over USB uses the audio class. There are patches for USB audio around, but they're not finished or integrated, and they don't do midi yet
22:05:04pamauryand it mainly depends on the usb controller
22:05:27kugelpgevaerts: so, I would like to have decisions regarding the API relatively soon so I can start porting it over to rockbox
22:06:16gevaertskugelp: what decisions still need to be taken? The naming?
22:06:17kugelpin the meantime I will add more test cases, but it's not simple to make up sufficiently complex scenarios
22:06:42kugelpgevaerts: and (more importantly) whether the API is good enough
22:06:56kugelpI thought it would be more controverse but it doesn't appear to be
22:07:20GodEater_kugelp: it's not contraversial because you're still not calling it malloc() ;)
22:07:42*GodEater_ gets his pitchfork
22:07:46gevaertskugelp: you proposed it on the mailing list, so give it a few more days and it's fine :)
22:07:53kugelpactually, I thought on RaaA it might be malloc backed
22:08:03GodEater_it's acceptable there
22:08:19GodEater_those targets have bucketloads of memory compared to the usual targets
22:08:31jhMikeSGodEater_: sentiments exactly
22:08:57GodEater_it's not like we're looking after the memory there either really - there's a "real" OS to do it for us.
22:08:58gevaertsOn RaaA you're also likely not going to bother moving allocations around
22:09:04gevaertsThey do have an MMU after all
22:09:05jhMikeSsneaking malloc in the back door
22:09:12GodEater_jhMikeS: Sssssssh!
22:09:18kugelpmalloc doesn't mean memory waste :)
22:09:18*GodEater_ looks nervously over his shoulder
22:10:20kugelpthe amount of available memory isn't an argument for or against malloc. whether you can sensibly free() is one
22:11:46kugelpjhMikeS: too late, it's already sneaked in ;)
22:12:39jhMikeSthere are times I wouldn't mind it at all
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22:26:01realoddyeah i know it's tricky
22:26:07realoddbut where should i go
22:26:38realoddwhat other devices does rockbox emulate besides snes and that computer that runs on cassettes?
22:26:43 Join Noub [0] (
22:28:50Noubas opposed to random songs)?
22:29:05Nouband that ate the first half of my question, nice
22:29:32Noubcan rockbox shuffle albums as opposed to songs?
22:30:06gevaertsIt can shuffle directories.
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22:30:33Noubthat'd be the same as shuffling artists then?
22:30:50 Join hobby16 [0] (
22:31:01gevaertsWell, that depends entirely on your directory structure
22:31:05NoubI guess it would depend how the songs were transferred over, huh
22:31:08gevaertsHave a look at
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22:31:24Noubrhythmbox seems to do it by artist, I wonder if I can change that
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22:34:29Tornemost programs that use a file structure at all do artist\album
22:34:31Tornewhich would work fine
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22:36:42Noubalbums with various artists would cause headaches though
22:36:54 Join mikroflops [0] (
22:37:05Tornemost programs that arrange files sensibly put those under Various Artists\album, or under the albumartist
22:39:22 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli)
22:41:04Tornedionoea: see my mail on -committers about email addresses for git migration
22:42:17dionoeaTorne: ?
22:42:37Tornetrying to collect committer names/addresses for svn2git purposes
22:42:44Torneyou haven't filled it in :)
22:43:04dionoeaoh. I'm not sure that I got that e-mail. Let me check
22:44:17TorneUnhelpful: also you
22:44:48Tornealso other people but they are not ehre using the same nick as their svn username
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22:46:25dionoeaTorne: hum, I can't find that email
22:46:34gevaertsTorne: IrcNicks on the wiki might help
22:47:00Tornemaybe but i can't be bothered to do that work right now
22:47:08Tornesomeone else is free to, you have the link ;)
22:50:43Tornethere are still 16 people who haven't done it who have committed in the last 18 months. they are clearly not paying attention ;p
22:51:03Tornepeople who haven't committed this decade I can maybe understand ;)
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23:01:07gevaertsFebs, LambdaCalculus37, Lamed, MarcGuay, Mmmm, Moos, Nico_P, Paprica, Quelsaruk, TiMiD, Toni1, [IDC]Dragon, aliask, archivator, austriancoder, dan_a, debauched_sloth, dreamlayers, earHertz, eigma, elinenbe, gotthardt, hardeep, jyp, lostlogic, lowlight, matsl, midgey, midkay, niobos, phaedrus961, ptw419, roolku, safetydan, sdoyon, shotofadds, stevenm, stripwax, t0mas, theli_ua, tomal, tucoz, vitja: ping
23:01:29gevaertsTorne: done :)
23:01:58TornePeople just pinged: see history just above, or rockbox-committers list
23:02:18Torneif you don't have the committers mail with the link to the spreadsheet ask someone else (not posting it publicly)
23:02:46Tornegevaerts: it's much easier when people's names/emails/usernames/nicks are the same :)
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