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#rockbox log for 2011-06-15

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03:40:38hw30I read on that "Get the MDCT working in Rockbox without distortion (DONE!)"
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03:40:53hw30does anyone know where in the code this error was ?
03:41:25hw30and if it was specific to ffmpeg's existing mdct
03:48:31 Part hw30
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08:01:25***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:08:19saratogascorche: ban Nong_mokmoon69
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08:14:45pixelmaJdGordon: could you clean out what the akismet plugin caught too while at it (there's at least one post with signature spam which got caught but one can still see it in "Recent Posts")
08:21:11saratogacurrent build page is now down entirely
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08:54:18CIA-58r30006 build result: All green
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09:00:01JdGordonscorche: we cant ban non-english sigs can we?
09:02:14[Saint] *is* an English speaking forum...
09:03:40JdGordonthe spam sig is always Thai (i tinhk its thai anyway)
09:04:56[Saint]Oh, right...if it's spam, then I'd say by all means. I just thought you meant banning *any* non-English sig.
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09:20:03kugelpit sucks to have no builds when the release is around
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09:25:56*[Saint] wonders what these warning whilst building a voicefile are about:
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09:29:49Zagorkugelp: relax. the release is not for another two weeks. plus you know I'm working to fix it.
09:31:19JdGordon plus the build systems doesnt build the release :)
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09:33:27CIA-58r30006 build result: All green
09:34:00kugelpIt's about testing. after the freeze the current builds are not as useful because its open for normaldevelopment again
09:34:17kugelpbut I'm chilling :-)
09:34:36[Saint]cia sure is dedicated to the 30006 build result.
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09:47:54sideralSaint: That's because it's such a cool commit!
09:50:50JdGordonrasher: any chance you could fix langtool to copy the dest string to the voice string on a specific LANG_ id please?
09:51:38JdGordonor anyone else even :)
09:52:40*JdGordon wants to commit FS #12158 bigfix for release
09:52:50JdGordonaww... no bluebroth3r-bot
09:54:40[Saint](disclaimer: fix is not actually very big at all ;))
10:01:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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10:15:42Zagorahh, there we go. zips and deltas are back
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10:23:18Zagorcia repeating build results is due to me re-running build rounds
10:27:52kugelhm, I somehow removed the cores= option in my build client. does it detect cores in that case?
10:30:24kugelthen I probably didn't have that option :)
10:34:38sideralZagor: Thanks for bringing the infrastructure back up!
10:36:35*Zagor bows
10:37:11gevaertssideral: he's not a superhero for *nothing* :)
10:40:17sideralSuperhero? Right −− now go fix the Flyspray search by player type ;)
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10:46:11sideralBTW Zagor, I eventually would fancy trying to add that search type to our FS; I often miss it. Would you be willing to run such a modification, and is the current FS instance's source code available somewhere?
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10:48:12*[Saint] thought that FS was dead but just doesn't know it yet.
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10:48:22[Saint](It's probably cruel to tell it ;))
10:48:27Zagorit seems pretty dead as a project, yes
10:48:47Zagorsideral: sure, I'd be happy to get some flyspray improvements
10:51:40sideralSaint: In case you're referring to our FS instance: I've seen in the logs some talk about deprecating FS for patches, but not for bugs.
10:53:05sideralBTW, if we migrate patches elsewhere, I think that we shouldn't just delete (or even close or archive elsewhere) all existing patch tasks on FS.
10:53:10Zagoryes, we discussed that at devcon. the gerrit test is part of that.
10:53:32Zagorsideral: well we at least have to make them read-only
10:54:23sideralAt least all links into FS should stay intact, as well as the query capabilities
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10:54:46 Quit dan_a (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
10:55:41sideralAlso, FS has some features I find really useful when browsing patches (and bugs) that I'd want to see in any new system: Query by category, version, and status, for example
10:56:18Tornesideral: that kinda goes against the general consensus, i think
10:56:30Zagorwell, we don't want two systems for patches. we want a new system that does everything better.
10:56:32Tornewe don't want to ahve a huge repository of searchable stuff that nobody has finished and nobody is going to commit
10:56:46Tornethe point is to make the author responsible for pushing it forward, and if they don't then it dies
10:57:09Tornehaving lots of ways to discover what patches exist is counterproductive there
10:57:27 Quit ruskie (Excess Flood)
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10:58:05sideralI think having an archive of unapplied patches is very useful. For example, I run several patches that didn't make it into the tree. And I know many users and developers do as well.
10:58:35Torneisn't that something we want to discourage?
10:58:44Tornefragmentation sucks from a support POV
10:58:57sideralI'd rather encourage it, to get more people interested in developing and submitting
10:59:08sideralwe don't support unofficial patches
10:59:18Zagorso we should we host them?
10:59:36sideralYes, I find FS very useful as a patch-hosting system
10:59:49TorneThis is not a benefit!
10:59:57Tornethat's part of the reason FS is so useless right now ;)
10:59:58sideralbecause it's a one-stop shop to see what's available.
11:00:06Tornebecause a bunch of peopole are using it as a way to maintain stuff which will never go into the tree
11:00:14sideralIt's useful to them
11:00:23Zagorsideral: we specifically want to get away from having a pile of patches "on our desk" that are not going to get committed
11:00:25Torneif it's not going into the tree then it's not useful to the project
11:00:29sideralSo why not accommodate it?
11:00:47sideralI think it is useful to the project, if only as an inspiration. That's what it is to me, at least
11:01:27 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: Ex-Chat)
11:01:30sideralIt's fine if there's a decision not to commit. But I think providing a way to maintain it anyway does no harm
11:01:30ZagorI can sort of see the point, but they should not be mixed with patches we work with
11:02:07TorneOK, so either way: the patch review thing is for patch review
11:02:11Torneit is not a way to find stuff
11:02:18TorneIf you want to find stuff, link to it from somewhere
11:02:23sideralThe fragmentation that would ensue if we close the central repo for patches is much worse than the current fragmentation methinks
11:02:36Zagorbut it becomes a maintenance burden no matter how it's done. and I'd rather outsource that.
11:02:45 Quit ruskie (Excess Flood)
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11:02:57Tornethe thing most visible on gerrit is the patches you wrote, or the patches you have reviewed or been asked to review
11:03:01Torneand that's fine
11:03:10TorneIt is possible to search for things by other criteria, but it's not aimed at that use case
11:03:42sideralNot being ably to query patches by category / player / version / status seems like a regression to the status quo to me.
11:03:59sideralDoes Gerrit have a mechanism to tag patches, possibly in a structured way?
11:04:19Torneit's a *patch review system*
11:04:40sideralThen it does strictly less than what FS does today ==> regression
11:04:40Torneit is for doing code reviews. it hosts patches purely so you have something to review.
11:05:06TorneThis is the point :)
11:05:19Tornethe consensus at devcon is we *do not want to do* the use case you have in mind. at all, with any tool.
11:05:26Zagorsideral: this whole debate was started by me and bagder because we want to get away from the "X hundred patches" list. we only want patches that are currently considered.
11:05:30sideralWhy can't we have that system (which I find useful) in addition to FS?
11:05:51Torneif there are two places then it's extremely difficult to work out what the current state of something is
11:06:13sideralIn which way is the patch repo a maintenance burden?
11:06:58sideralThere's no need to look at the pile daily and feel bad about it :)
11:07:00Torneit is full of crap to the point that virtually all developers ignore it completely
11:07:06ZagorI mean doing a new repo for "unofficial" patches
11:07:13Zagorwould be a burden
11:07:39Torneif people want to maintain changes to rockbox there are lots of ways to do that, and once we switch to git it will be even easier
11:07:47Tornethey can fork it onto github
11:07:48Torneor whatever.
11:08:00Zagorsince we plan to keep using FS for bugs, having unofficial patches there would be confusing
11:08:06Tornei was going to see about having gerrit push a mirror of our tree to github specifically so that people can do that quickly :)
11:08:06 Quit ruskie (Excess Flood)
11:08:11sideralTorne: That's not consistent with my use of the tracker, and with what I observe other devs do. People frequently reference old FS tasks when stuff comes up
11:08:28Tornesideral: and the fact that those are old is *a serious failing*
11:08:39Torneif they are still worth referencing when they are old then they should have been committed already :)
11:08:51Tornestuff that's old should either be in the tree or uninteresting
11:08:54sideralTorne: I disagree. It's a benefit that those are still available
11:09:12Tornesure, you can disagree
11:09:12sideralGithub fork -> fragmentation -> bad
11:09:17Tornebut so far you are in a minority of one
11:09:26sideralTorne: I'm used to that :)
11:09:47TorneIt's not the same if it's *somewhere else*.
11:09:52sideralI don't see the benefit of cutting off one's history
11:09:52TornePeople expect to get support with things they got from "us"
11:10:01Tornewhere "us" includes everything on flyspray
11:10:09sideralNo, they don't
11:10:12TorneYes they do
11:10:18TornePeople ask questions about patched builds all the time
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11:10:58sideralMaybe. But there you see: people run patches builds, because patches are useful to them
11:11:59*sideral needs to go offline for some time. Thanks for the discussion so far! Later...
11:12:20Tornepeople do lots of things, and i don't go out of my way to help them do most of it ;)
11:13:03n1si think the way fs works encourages people to post unfinished stuff which is usefull for getting comments on stuff you are working on but also leavs a lot of unmaintained half finished crap
11:13:12 Quit ruskie (Excess Flood)
11:13:42n1swill posting a half finished patch for comments be on the ML or in gerrit?
11:13:57Zagoryes, I think the fact that we have a repo of crap is a minor problem. the real problem is that the "hot" patches are drowning in the crap.
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11:20:54TorneZagor: it's kidna encouraged by being treated the same as bugs
11:21:09Tornesince people submit bugs and generally expect that we will try and deal with them, which is not unreasonable
11:21:20ZagorI agree
11:21:26Tornebut they aslo submit patches that implement new features that we've not even discussed, let alone agree that we *want*
11:21:35Torneand they also expect those to be dealt with
11:22:04n1syes, the follow through of non committer devs is usually rather low
11:22:06Tornemoving to a seperate thing, regardless of the specific features of the new tool, gives us an opportunity to draw a line and declare "if you upload stuff here then pushing it forward is your job, not ours"
11:22:23 Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
11:22:28n1syeah, that is good i think
11:22:31Tornethese are not feature-requests-with-patches-attached, they are code reviews
11:22:48Torneif you want to convince us the feature is valuable you have to talk to us; the code review thing is for us to critique your C :)
11:23:31Zagoronly we'll be more insulting
11:23:36Zagorobviously ;-)
11:24:16Zagormaybe we should adapt linus torvalds style. "anyone who wants this feature has brain damage!"
11:24:41Tornebut yeah, i think it's a not unreasonable argument against caring too much about discoverability
11:25:10Torneyou *can* search gerrit, it understands status, what branch things are aimed at, a topic branch name if it was uploaded with one, current review status, etc
11:25:16Torneand it searches descriptions/titles
11:25:49Tornebut having tags for what players, features, etc is kinda.. meh
11:26:15*sideral is back
11:26:24Torne(you can also create watchlists which notify you when reviews are uploaded that touch certain files/directories/branches, so you have the opportunity to step in on something that changes code you are well acquainted with and say "no you're doing it wrong") :)
11:26:46Tornei can see myself watching firmware/drivers/ata.c ;)
11:27:16sideralso if having a repo of crap and distinguishing it from patches sent for review should be possible?
11:27:26n1si hope this system will make people more inclined to review patches and it sounds like it just might do that
11:27:37Tornen1s: i think so
11:27:47Torneyou can see the patch without downloading it, with full-file context
11:28:15Torneand you can tell which version is current, and see comments that apply specifically to that version, not ones that are addressed already
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11:28:17n1sthat is very nice
11:28:35Tornethat makes it a lot quicker to just drop by and comment on a bit in one file, even if you don't care much about the patch as a whole
11:29:22n1sis there an easy way to download the patch for testing or do i still need to get the patch file and apply it?
11:29:30Tornen1s: it's a ref in the git repository
11:29:36Tornegerrit gives you several choices of command to copypaste to apply it locally
11:29:46Torneyou can check it out, cherrypick it, pull to it
11:29:57Torne(and this works anonymously also so people do not need gerrit/ssh accounts to do that)
11:30:24*n1s still needs to read up on the git terms as those three methods mean nothing to him :)
11:30:32sideralCan't we just say, introduce / discuss / host your patch on FS if you want, but if you want it committed, go to gerrit? That would also allow people to retract to FS for more discussion if their patch is rejected in gerrit
11:31:12Tornen1s: cherry-pick is usually the one you want: it's functionally equivalent to downloading a diff and applying it
11:31:25Torneexcept it handles conflict resolution using the full git merge algorithm so it's more likely to work
11:31:40n1sok, sounds nice
11:31:55Zagorsideral: I don't want every patch discussion in two places. the forum is probably better for such "light talk"
11:32:02TorneZagor: or the mailing list
11:32:12TorneWe already have several palces people can talk about stuff, wehther it's worth it, etc
11:32:23Tornestart a forum thread, or mailing list thread, with a link to your code review in gerrit
11:32:43Torneif it's not getting any traction
11:32:46Torneor come on IRC and bug people.
11:34:04Tornesideral: FS is just a bad way to store and discuss patches, at all, whether you intend to commit them or not
11:34:30TorneOther than the diffstat output it treats patches like any other arbitrary blob attachment
11:34:37sideralI agree it could be better. I just don't want to lose its query features
11:34:40Torneyou can't point at lines in the patch, you can't even tellw hich version of the patch is which
11:35:04Torneyou can't even view the patch directly without downloading it in most browsers because it sets content-disposition on the attachment link ;)
11:35:41Zagorsideral: seems we have quite opposing views. we explicitly want to remove the patch graveyeard. you explicitly want to keep it :-)
11:36:09Torneyah, there is not really a compromise between those two
11:36:35sideralZagor: It's not so very opposing I think. Let's establish some common ground:
11:36:46sideralI think having a patch-review system is good
11:37:13[Saint]moral: we > you ;)
11:37:29[Saint](that's "the royal we", btw)
11:37:51sideralWould you agree with keeping at least a R/O queriable FS instance intact so that URLs pointing into it won't get invalid?
11:38:17Tornewe're not currently planning to get rid of flyspray..
11:38:26Tornesince we're not going to use another bug tracker (at this point)
11:38:37Tornethe most we are likely to do is at some point, mass close all patches
11:38:44Torneor maybe only ones that haven't been commented on for a while
11:38:55sideralhow do you plan to deal with patches in response to bug reports? host on FS or link from FS to gerrit?
11:39:32Torneif you have a patch that fixes a bug, whether you are the bug reporter or not, upload the patch to gerrit for review and put a link in the bug thread
11:39:33Zagora bug report with a patch is a patch, in my view
11:39:58Zagora bug report is a report about a bug with no known (or at lest no done) fix
11:40:11sideralI think we've established that gerrit cannot double as an issue tracker right now
11:40:27Zagorabsolutely. we don't want gerrit for bugs.
11:40:33Zagorgerrit is strictly for patches
11:40:57Tornethe term "patch" is getting somewhat overloaded i think
11:42:12sideralI'd like us to not close patches on FS unless we'd close them under the status quo (e.g., no interest for > 1yr) or they've been migrated to gerrit
11:42:29Tornewhat benefit does that give you?
11:42:39Torneclosing them doesn't delete them
11:42:44Torneyou can still find them
11:43:01sideralI don't lose track of their status. Overwriting the status with "closed" puts them into the rejected pile
11:43:18Tornewhat's wrong with going closed, out of date, if you are still interested in having this committed upload a proposed change to gerrit and invite comment somewhere
11:43:49Tornesideral: yes
11:44:16TorneThe people who are watching the FS# entry will get notified it's been closed
11:44:17sideralMy major problem with these changes is that there's no structured way to query what's already available.
11:44:29TorneIf none of those people care enough to try and push it forward then it's dead.
11:44:38Zagorsideral: define "available"?
11:44:52sideralZagor: as in, people have been working on this area before
11:45:08Tornesideral: you are thinking of "patches" as "things that someone can download and apply to their tree to make it behave differently". a delicious buffet of things to try.
11:45:24sideralFor example, I draw huge inspiration from 3–4 year old database patches that are still around in FS
11:45:28TorneWe are thinking of "patches" as "proposed changes to trunk which should ideally be accepted or rejected as quickly as possible"
11:45:43Tornea queue of stuff to get through, that should be minimised. ;)
11:45:52Zagorsideral: how are they any less available when closed?
11:46:13sideralTorne: sometimes you don't have developers that can look at the proposals for several years, as has been the case with the DB
11:46:32Tornenobody is proposing *deleting* anything here
11:46:40Tornefor reference, gerrit reviews which are abandoned are also not deleted
11:46:41sideralZagor: when they're closed, it's hard to distinguish them from done and already rejected stuff
11:46:50kugelsideral: should we hope that in a few years someone comes by and looks at old patches?
11:47:05kugelno, we should encourage the authors to get it committed at the time of posting
11:47:11sideralkugel: Haven't you hoped that I would come and salvage the DB? ;)
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11:47:31kugelyes, but not because of the patches on FS
11:47:31Tornesideral: and you would be prevented from doing that how?
11:47:38sideralkugel: That's not always possible, I'm afraid
11:48:03Zagorsideral: I think we can add a close reason "flyspray abandoned" or something, to help you distinguish
11:48:11kugelsideral: then the patch is not suitable and we shouldn't be concerned with it any further
11:48:29sideralTorne, Zagor: I'd hate to lose any metadata about proposed changes. Having to way to query for status / category is a regression to the status quo
11:48:44Torneyou keep saying "status"
11:48:51Torneof course gerrit knows what status something is in
11:48:57Zagorsideral: I strongly disagree. the current system is a tar pit.
11:49:04Tornethere are three: open, merged, abandoned
11:49:06Zagorpatches are dumped into it, and never seen again
11:49:30Zagorwe want to vastly speed up the review process in order to get more things accepted, and developers encouraged
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11:49:45sideralZagor: That you don't know. As I said, I do look at old stuff for my area of expertise
11:50:05kugelsaidly you're the only one doing this
11:50:11Zagorand we also want to move the initiative from us to the developer. distrubuting the work scales better.
11:50:32kugeleven committers tend to dump patches on FS and never look at it again
11:50:39Zagorsideral: old stuff is not going to disappear. it will stay in your mailbox for as long as you want.
11:50:43sideralI understand these motivations, and they are good.
11:50:46GodEater_sideral: I fail to understand the difference between "open" stuff so old it has mould growing on it, and "closed" stuff in the same state.
11:51:31sideralBut I don't like abandoning stuff quickly with no way of querying it
11:52:10Zagorsideral: sort your mails
11:52:15kugeland I strongly disagree that we should have a patch graveyard for the convinience of people that don't want to make it into mainline (i.e. forks)
11:52:22sideralTorne: I understand that gerrit keeps a status. But you agreed that there's no way to query by category, for example. Or player type, version, ...
11:52:35Tornesideral: that stuff is useless noise in virtually every patch in FS
11:52:42TorneIt's marginally less useless in bugs
11:52:47Tornebut largely those fields are unspecified or wrong
11:52:49sideralZagor: That's precisely what we have an issue tracker for. My mailbox is no replacement
11:53:07Zagoryes it is. it moves the responsibility from us to you.
11:53:17AlexPThis was all discussed and decided at devcon I thought
11:53:18sideralTorne: Not true for at least "Database", "Bookmarks"
11:53:23Tornesideral: Yes it is
11:53:49Tornealso, if you are interested in changes that affect the database, gerrit can notify you about anything that touches tagcache.c
11:53:51kugelsideral: are you sure you didn't overlook a couple of db patches that are not tagged with database? ;)
11:53:58Torneyou don['t need to rely on tags manually added
11:54:00sideralAlexP: Are you suggesting I should shut up and not voice my concern?
11:54:02Torneyou can *see what files things change*
11:54:19AlexPsideral: No, just that it would have been better if you had done it during the discussion
11:54:38AlexPAlso, that you need to argue really well to change the decision :)
11:54:41GodEater_we made the discussion at devcon public for a reason
11:55:15sideralAlexP: Apologies for not having been available at that time
11:55:18AlexPOf course I'm not saying you can't expound your view :)
11:55:25sideralkugel: Yes, I am :)
11:55:27Zagorwell, to be fair it wasn't announced that we were going to discuss the patch process
11:55:35AlexPNo indeed
11:55:36Zagorit was a spontaneous topic
11:55:42AlexPI'm not blaiming him
11:55:50AlexPblaming either
11:55:58AlexPJust saying it is a pity :)
11:56:01Tornewell, I brought it up because the option of gerrit affects how we do the git migration ;)
11:56:04Tornebut yeah.
11:56:27Tornebtw, re the actual migration, people are still slowly coming by and filling in email addresses after I spammed all the people who hadn't ;)
11:56:36Torneso that's good
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11:56:52AlexPsideral: I didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't comment at all
11:59:24sideralI think I understand you guys' view better now. And you now know I like FS's query and archiving capabilities, and its potential to allow people to host / maintain Rockbox-related patches with no way of having them committed ever.
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12:01:55sideralBTW, I use several patches posted there by Rockbox developers (gevaerts, JdGordon, bertrik and myself) on my player −− stuff that they just haven't polished up or don't intend to commit, but I find useful nontheless
12:02:14TorneThen you should prod those people to do something with them
12:02:16Torneor do it yourself.
12:02:19kugelFS is not the right place for stuff not intended to be committed
12:02:28TorneThe fact that you are continuing to use those patches without doing anything to get them in the tree is *bad*
12:02:38sideralNo, it isn't. :)
12:02:41Torneespecially since you have the power to do what you like, really, as you are a committer
12:02:49GodEater_I don't think anywhere on the domain is the right place for stuff never intended to be committed.
12:03:02sideralMy time is limited, and I prioritize stuff
12:03:27sideralHere I disagree with GodEater and kugel.
12:03:28Tornesideral: It doesn't take much time to send a quick email to prod someone about it
12:03:36Tornepeople forget stuff
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12:04:15sideralAnd people's time is limited. Often they cannot invest the time right now to complete the config / manual changes to to enter the flame wars about including a feature right now.
12:04:28sideralOften it's just the best thing at the moment to leave stuff simmering in FS.
12:05:13Torneyes, often it can't get committed right now
12:05:20Tornebut that doesn't mean you should just be happy with that state
12:05:29kugelsideral: a few days or weeks is ok, but not several *years*
12:05:40Torneit's still bad that you are having to use a patch
12:05:51Tornei'm nto saying you must resolve it immediately :)
12:06:17sideralMy Rockbox TODO file counts 37 projects, not including small one-offs. Lots of stuff won't be completed in a year, but I may want to put it up on FS / whereever anyway for other people to use / comment on
12:06:44sideralI'm not saying I'm happy about it :)
12:08:06sideralI'm just accepting reality
12:09:04kugelso, in the future you can point people to your external git repo for stuff you don't complete in the near future
12:09:19sideralfragmentation => bad
12:09:47Tornepeople running different things and believing it's "close enough" is bad
12:09:47kugelpatches on FS is the same fragmentation. it's just worse because it's not as visible
12:10:08sideralIt's bad because it makes it hard to discover interesting stuff, for example
12:10:09kugelyou're running a patched build, as are several people. that *is* fragementation, just not as obvious
12:10:09Tornepeople being able to run their own version of something is open source :)
12:10:40kugela github mirror should make things easy to discover, at least other forks
12:11:14*sideral thanks you guys for your comments and time. Need to hurry to lunch now. Later!
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13:24:23AlexPsideral: The policy has always been that flyspray is only for stuff intended to get committed
13:24:41AlexPWe shut things not intended to go in if we notice
13:25:22AlexPOr have done in the past :)
13:28:31sideralAlexP: I think Rockbox has way too many policies for such a small project. ;)
13:29:07GodEater_and again, you're in a minority
13:29:18Tornewe have 130-odd committers
13:29:24Tornethat puts us well, well above the median
13:29:52Torneand 30000 revisions, and 183MB of code
13:29:56Tornethese are all well above average :)
13:31:19n1ssideral: we need policies or all this evolves into an unnavigatable mess
13:31:34*sideral hints at the smiley
13:32:41n1simagine if everyone would post their "custom build patch" to fs...
13:32:50sideralI don't intend to get involved with the politics too much, being a relatively "young" committer
13:33:57[Saint]you need to know them, though, so when stuff like this happens you're not the only one asking why it is.
13:34:25sideraln1s: I'm not concerned about that too much. What gets committed is what defines Rockbox. Accommodating patches locally is just a healthy way of preventing fragmentation in my view
13:34:36pamaurythis is not about politics imo, in every group you have to have some rules, otherwise it's chaos
13:34:59TorneHow does hosting the patches prevent fragmentation?
13:35:21GodEater_sideral: you're just wrong - having a load of patches that never get commited in one place doesn't make it any more fragmented than having them littered all over the internet.
13:35:21TorneGenerally in projects it's *healthier* for there to be an actual fork somewhere else, than for a large proportion of users to build custom builds with different patches
13:35:25sideralTorne: Its a detriment to some unhappy group forking the project
13:35:30TorneForking is fine!
13:35:36Torneforking is how these things are supposed to work
13:35:50Torneif a group of people object to our direction so much they are going to fork the whole project for it then *that's okay*
13:35:56Tornethat is not fragmentation
13:36:02GodEater_that's the point of open source!
13:36:17Torneusers all having a slightly differnet build with slightly different patches: that is fragmentation
13:36:22Torneit doesnt' matter where those patches came from
13:36:42sideralTorne: But that's the reality −− partly because Rockbox is reluctant to accept new features
13:37:02gevaertsI don't think rockbox is reluctant to accept new features
13:37:05TorneIt's not the reality tot he degree you think
13:37:21TorneThe users who have lots of patches are very likely to be active on forums/flyspray/etc
13:37:29Tornethe users who just use our builds are much less likely to be *communicative*
13:37:36Tornebut they still exist :)
13:38:05Torneand yeah, i am not at all convinced we are reluctant to accept new features
13:38:28Torneat devcon we basically agreed that the reality was that DAPs are largely dying and our future is probably as a playback engine used by native UIs on mobile/etc devices ;)
13:38:36[Saint]I'd actually like an example of that personally. I can't particularly think of one myself.
13:38:36gevaertsWe're just reluctant to spend time on them if they were written by other people :)
13:38:41Torneif we can stomach that then new features is not a big deal
13:38:45ZagorI'd say we are *slow* to accept patches, which is one of the reasons we want a better patch system
13:39:19sideralI hope you're right :)
13:39:34Tornei think we are also not always great at explaining what's wrong with a patch without giving people the impression that the entire concept of the feature is bad
13:39:57GodEater_I think our acceptance speed in the past has bee due to the extremely limited resources our targets had - we REALLY wanted to make sure the feature was optimised to the nth level and was REALLY worth it.
13:40:06ZagorIt struck me yesterday that our possible future as a library may give reason to think some more about our licensing
13:40:09Tornebut it doesn't help that people who send one-time patches have a tendency to just throw us something fully-formed and complete which they want committed as-is
13:40:13GodEater_if we're moving away from those limited platforms, we can choose to be a lot less picky
13:40:20Tornewhich they haven't actually discussed with anyone beforehand
13:40:34Torneso when we tell them "oh we can't take it like this it adds eleven million options" or whatever, they give up
13:41:04Torneif they had involved us earlier in *their* development process (e.g. by posting in-progress work to a code review system, or a git branch, or similar) then we could've guided their direction towards something acceptable
13:41:23ZagorGodEater_: the platform shift also will likely include more forks
13:41:25TorneZagor: possibly
13:41:38TorneZagor: i was imagining that we would also be writing at least some of the apps using the library
13:42:10Zagoryes, but I imagine if/when we have a good library other people are going to want to do their take of what a music player should be
13:42:13cpu98anyone want to help me? HZ delay... is HZ 1 sec?
13:42:20Tornecpu98: yes
13:42:30TorneZagor: oh, sure.
13:42:48TorneZagor: but then we need to exert what pressure we can on those people to not just patch rockbox to suit their app
13:42:55Torneand to instead contribute back to us to make the library fit more needs
13:43:23ZagorI think mainly there will be forks of the UI and not so much the lib
13:43:23Torneso from that POV I would say our current license is good :)
13:44:00pamaurythe point of open source development is also to contribute back your changes, if possible
13:44:12TorneZagor: if the library has enough functionality then the UI might be light enough that it's not worth really forking it :)
13:44:14[Saint]forks of the UI? really?
13:44:36sideralAnyway, I believe hosting any diversity ourselves, and making it as accessible (queriable) as possible, is good for the overall health of the project, as it allows developers to learn from history. That's the way I use FS, and that I'd hate to lose.
13:44:46Torne[Saint]: virtually all "controversial" feature discussions are about UI
13:44:56ZagorTorne: but UI is 90% of the experience for many people. and *everyone* has an opinion about it.
13:45:07TorneZagor: no, i mean: rather than forking it they would just write one
13:45:59GodEater_yeah, you'd have to be a real masochist to fork ours ;)
13:46:01Tornesideral: but we're also trying to learn from history here, and history teaches us that the current approach results in 90% of patches rotting
13:46:05Zagorsideral: I don't think flyspray is a good description of our history
13:46:13Tornewhether they are good or not
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13:46:31[Saint]the UI can already be completely re-implemented in a theme...however *completely* re-doing it (my hacky way) will overflow almost any skin RAM except the applications. iiuc JD is making "the right way" for themers to juggle the UI presently.
13:46:46Torne[Saint]: That's not the kind of UI we were considering here at all
13:46:54Torne[Saint]: We were talking more about: using 100% native android UI widgets ;)
13:46:56[Saint](not really important, just a side not that I think UI forking might be lessened by that if it gets in)
13:47:04Tornewhich would probably remove theming entirely
13:47:04GodEater_sideral: I think we've pointed out now numerous times we're NOT DELETING FS - we're just closing patches in rot hell - so you're losing nothing
13:47:09Torneor at least make it superficial :)
13:47:20Zagor[Saint]: I mean full rewrite, from scratch. "MyFirstMusicPlayer" that just uses the rockplay lib
13:47:42[Saint]Aha, right. Gotcha.
13:47:43Torneyah. the library handles playback, codecs, metadata parsing, finding album art, whatever
13:47:56sideralGodEater: I do understand that. But for new patches, there will be no FS, no?
13:47:56Torneyou literally just have to write some way to create/choose playlists/tracks and you have a UI
13:48:08pamaurythat's why we need to be agreat library and a great UI :)
13:48:09Torneand any other features in the UI are up to you :)
13:48:14GodEater_sideral: no, because the majority opinion is that FS for patches is shit :)
13:48:43TorneGodEater_: the problem is that sideral seems to think that patches in FS are actually discoverable
13:48:46*sideral has his own statistics, and his own majority opinion, in his private cell
13:49:01Torneand so objects to the fact that gerrit doesn't have categories or tags or affected-players
13:49:15Tornebecause then he won't be able to discover patches he's interested in
13:49:17[Saint]Torne: Zagor: Right, yeah. I get you know. I thought you were addressing the many "I want the menus ordered thusly/why is foo/bar/baz in the menu? they're useless" minions.
13:49:19Torneold, dead ones
13:49:31[Saint]*s/you know/you now/
13:49:39Torne[Saint]: no, we're more talking about fixing the fact that there are 200 music players on the android market and they all play like crap ;)
13:49:44sideralTorne: Thanks for rephrasing it that way. That's largely accurate
13:50:00Tornepeople want 200 different UIs but they don't want gapless to be badly implemented or to have no replaygain or to not support some codecs :)
13:50:22Tornethe android media framework is not sufficient to make a good music player :)
13:50:37Torneso maybe we can fill that gap pretty well.
13:50:44Torneand maybe for other OSes as well.
13:51:12GodEater_Torne: a new UI would be cool - esp. if we can use it to pull music from google music (or other cloud source of your choice) but pump the bits through our playback enginer.
13:51:12Tornesideral: right. so the disagreement here is kinda twofold: I don't think patches in FS actually *are* discoverable, and I also don't think that that's useful very much
13:51:38Tornethe majority of the metadata on the majority of FS# entries I am watching is either missing or bullshit
13:51:44Tornewrong categories, wrong players, etc
13:51:52sideralTorne: then go fix it :)
13:51:56Tornepart of that is FS's fault (not being able to select multiple players)
13:52:03GodEater_sideral: he is - by ditching FS
13:52:04Torneso some of those things *can't* easily be fixed
13:52:13Tornewell no, i'm not fixing it
13:52:18sideralGodEater: :)
13:52:23*GodEater_ was being flippant
13:52:27TorneI am looking at what it would take to fix it, versus how much use it would be even if it was fixed, and deciding it's not worth fixing
13:52:38Torneeven if that data was perfect all the time, I still would have very little use for it
13:52:50TorneGiven that in reality it will be crappy a lot of the time *even if* the tool handles it better, it's even less useful
13:53:07sideralTorne: Aren't you interested in bugs/patches related to stuff you've done, bookmarks, say?
13:53:18Tornesideral: yes
13:53:23TorneI can find those by searching fot eh word "bookmark"
13:53:29Torneor by looking for changes to apps/bookmark.c
13:53:38Torneand that will give me about a 95% hit rate with no metadata required
13:54:04sideralI like that the corresponding query for the Database category on FS has 100% accuracy
13:54:14TorneIf an issue isn't found by that simple search then it's probably also not categorised correctly either
13:54:19sideralI care about that data :)
13:54:29gevaertssideral: does it really?
13:54:33gevaertsI somehow doubt that
13:54:39Tornehave you tried finding all the database related patches by searching for the word database, and for patches that touch tagcache.c?
13:54:45Tornebecause i bet that works just as well
13:54:45sideralgevaerts: Yes. I went through the history and fixed it :)
13:54:56sideralTorne: yes
13:54:57Torne(note: you can't actually do the latter in flyspray)
13:55:06Torneso, your yes is a lie.
13:55:21Tornebecause there's basically no way tod o that currently :)
13:55:29Torneunless you have a local copy of every flyspray attachment ;)
13:55:39sideralTorne: Google did that for me ;)
13:55:47TorneOh, duh
13:55:51Tornepardon me :)
13:56:04Torneyah, google doesn't really index the patches but it indexes the diffstats of them
13:56:07Torneso that works.
13:56:24Torneok, so how was that compared to things that were *already* tagged database before you changed them?
13:56:39Tornehow many things didn't come up on those searches that you subsequently found by another method that was more work?
13:56:51Tornebecqause unless that number is large you are proving my point :)
13:56:58sideralI would have missed about 20 % either way (only looking at category, or only looking at search results)
13:57:19sideralbecause of miscategorization / misspellings / alternate spellings
13:57:19Torneok, so i wouldnt' consider that worth it
13:57:30Torne80% of them is enough work to be getting on with kthx :)
13:57:42*sideral happily disagrees with Torne again :)
13:57:44*Torne goes for luuuunch
14:00:24*sideral is sad to see that FS-based retrospection doesn't work for you guys
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14:01:48B4gdersideral: I lack your proposal on how we should improve the patch situation, you seem to be mostly happy with it as it is
14:02:14[Saint]I think it does, people have looked at FS currently, and thought"in retrospect...this system sucks balls" ;)
14:02:47[Saint]"I wish we could do it better...oh, wait, we can"
14:03:01sideralB4gder: My proposal is to keep FS alive for patch hosting, and to have try the patch-review system in parallel, as it isn't even trying to be a replacement for an issue tracker
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14:03:20B4gdersideral: with only you left caring about FS?
14:03:40B4gderthe net effect will be that FS is for storing old cruft
14:03:53sideralB4gder: me and those who'd like to host/discuss a patch that isn't ready for commit
14:04:10gevaertsOf course the patch review system isn't trying to be an issue tracker. Patches are not issues!
14:04:11B4gderand then you need to do it again when submitted to gerrit?
14:04:32sideralgevaerts: Full ack. So why replace one with the other?
14:04:41gevaertssideral: why can't gerrit be used for a patch that isn't ready to commit?
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14:05:00gevaertssideral: we *have* a tracker for issues, a.k.a. bugs, and that's not going to go away
14:05:05[Saint]I don't think *anyone* has mentioned dropping FS for bug reports, have they?
14:05:13sideralgevaerts: I don't know, that's what was repeatedly said in this conversation by others
14:05:14[Saint]ah, yes...what gevaerts said.
14:05:53[Saint]sideral: No, it hasn't. It's been encouraged to do so.
14:05:55B4gdersideral: we have agreed to keep FS for bugs, not patches
14:06:04sideralgevaerts: I do understand that. But undecided patches that need more work are issues as well, and are worth archiving and making queriable
14:06:08B4gderbut sure, a bug report could include a patch
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14:06:12[Saint]so that people get a chance to comment earlier in <feature X>'s development.
14:06:13gevaertswhy are they issues?
14:06:36Zagorsideral: please don't use the word "issues". we have patches, and we have bug reports. that's all.
14:06:41B4gderand why do we need FS to discuss issues? why not just discuss on the dev list?
14:07:16*B4gder pulls out his mail argument again
14:07:25sideralZagor: FS is an issue tracker. It archives conversations about [whatever] in a structured and queriable way. Bugs benefit from this structure, as do proposed changes (patches)
14:07:50GodEater_sideral: it's absolutely not structured discussion - there's no threading!
14:07:56Zagorsideral: FS is what we make it. we use it for bug reports and patches. in the future only for bug reports.
14:08:00GodEater_mail is infinitely preferable to that
14:08:26Zagorintroducing the term "issues" only adds confusion
14:08:29sideralZagor: I don't see a counterargument to mine
14:08:58B4gdersideral: almost nobody thinks the current patch situation on FS is good
14:09:02sideralGodEater: Mailing-list archives aren't queriable like that. There's a reason why people have invented issue trackers.
14:09:11B4gderand we think the work flow needs to change to fix this
14:09:31GodEater_sideral: aren't queryable like what?
14:09:34sideralZagor: Sorry :)
14:09:35Zagor"Flyspray is an uncomplicated, web-based bug tracking system"
14:10:08Zagorit's designed to be a bug tracker. not a patch manager.
14:10:09sideralGodEater: Like a bug tracker. Ever seen that huge search mask?
14:10:10 Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:10:26GodEater_I also fail to see why someone working on a patch cannot submit it to gerrit whatever state it's in?
14:10:27B4gderif flyspray had (much) better mail integration, it could've worked better at this
14:10:29pamauryImo, the current problem of FS for patches is that two distincts things are getting merged: 1) the technical discussion about the patch itself 2) the non-technical discussion about the feature itself
14:11:02GodEater_sideral: I really have no idea what you're referring to
14:11:07B4gderpamaury: and that assumes it even attracts the interested people in the first place
14:11:58sideralI'm not saying FS cannot be improved upon. But I fail to see what's hard to understand about me liking to sift through old / proposed stuff with a structured query?
14:12:01ZagorI have long since given up following patches on flyspray. I only look at things raised in the mailing list. I don't think I am alone in this.
14:12:22Zagorsideral: it's only structured after you've manually gone through and fixed it
14:12:42[Saint]sideral: You'll still be able to, no? it'll still be there.
14:12:47Zagorare you volunteering for the post of Flyspray janitor? :)
14:12:54B4gderand the way we work with patches in FS allows patches to sit and rot too much
14:13:07sideralSaint: Not for new patches once we close FS for patches
14:13:33[Saint]right, but you specifically said *old* stuff.
14:13:36Zagorthat's because we don't want patches to rot in the future. we want them to be discussed, refined and committed or rejected.
14:13:38[Saint]this won't change that.
14:13:51sideralAnd the other point I wanted to make: I like that there's one place to go for patches, and not many.
14:14:09Zagorsideral: careful. that's an argument for closing FS :-)
14:14:20[Saint]there still will be only one place to go for patches. close FS, use gerrit. ;)
14:15:03sideralZagor: At least I can structure it. That seems to be impossible with gerrit
14:15:29Zagorthat's because ideally there will be nothing to structure. patches are temporary works in progress. not mantle pieces.
14:16:05Zagor334 open patches is an embarrassment and a failure
14:16:20[Saint]it certainly *looks* that way.
14:16:29sideralZagor: I think quickly rejecting stuff just because no one does the last 10 % (config, docs) right now is a bad idea
14:16:48sideralZagor: I disagree. It's a treasure
14:16:57kugelthere's two places for patches. we still accept them on the ML
14:17:12Zagorsideral: why would we not reject it? it can't go in. we'll accept it as soon as it's done.
14:17:19kugelZagor: it was 400 at the devcon
14:17:24Zagoreverything is rejected until it is committed
14:17:32kugelI closed like 20 pre-2008 patches
14:17:47sideralZagor: because it might be useful to other people for their private use, as are so many of the existing patches in FS
14:17:59Zagorflyspray is not the world's work-in-progress directory
14:18:01sideralto it's worth keeping or even forward porting from time to time
14:18:02gevaertsThen those people can host them!
14:18:24sideralgevaerts: And them being discoverable in a central place is a big plus too
14:18:35kugelit's not
14:18:51kugelit encourages "dumping and forgetting"
14:18:52n1ssideral: making that easy makes it less likely people will finish them imo
14:19:09gevaertsI'm not saying they all have to host this stuff separately. As far as I can see is available
14:19:14pamaurysideral: if someone bothered to do the 90% other, doing the last 10% shouldn't be too hard; config and docs *are* important
14:19:42sideralpamaury: You know about that 80–20 rule, don't you? :)
14:20:18sideralgevaerts: I only see Rockbox removing existing support for central patch hosting, and I don't like that
14:20:37kugeland I like that
14:20:50gevaertsMost of us see that as a huge step forwards
14:20:52sideralkugel: And I don't. :)
14:20:59kugel"central patch hosting" sounds nicer that what it actually is
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14:21:14pamaurythen than an even stronger argument against your example; if you let the hardest 20% part to other people just because you don't want to do it, what's the point ?
14:21:52sideralpamaury: The point is that apparently many people find patches useful despite their lack of polish
14:22:05pamauryif it's polish, it's not hard
14:22:10*evilnick takes issue with "many" there
14:22:21sideralpamaury: Yes it is.
14:22:36GodEater_polish is supposed to be a pretty hard language to learn actually
14:22:47sideralevilnick: It wasn't me who postulated that people with patched builds frequently are a problem
14:23:41evilnicksideral: I'm just thinking that as a % of the users, the ones running patched builds would be pretty small
14:24:10sideralevilnick: Then why is it a problem to keep our repo of patches alive?
14:24:31GodEater_because they're not OURS
14:24:33sideralIf it's not causing any problem? :^)
14:24:36GodEater_they're someone elses
14:25:07kugelsideral: it's causing problems
14:25:24*evilnick ducks back out of the discussion :)
14:25:33kugelthe most apparent one is that patches sit there instead of being worked on and pushed into svn
14:26:01[Saint]I can, and do, host my patches, I know they won't get commited. the ones I *have* put in to be commited (and have been committed) I put on FS. I don't see why it's a problem to ask people to host their shit in their own backyard so to speak.
14:26:35sideralkugel: I sincerely hope that patch review will reduce the number of patches that aren't completed (although I somehow doubt it). But if that's the case, there won't be as much rot in FS any more, no?
14:27:06sideralSaint: Which of my arguments for hosting them centrally didn't make any sense?
14:27:11kugelwe still don't want to host patches which aren't going into svn
14:27:40kugelas they're obviously not meant for svn, we shouldn't be concerned or even associated with them
14:28:03sideralwe aren't, if they're not commited
14:28:28sideralwe expressly deny support for patched builds
14:28:30kugelwe are since they are on, in the same places where bug reports legitimately go to
14:30:00sideralAlright guys, I think all arguments have been exchanged and we're running in circles now.
14:30:25sideralThanks to everyone who took the time to chime in and explain their view!
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16:08:23Rob2222Is USB-mode on Sansa AMS v2 models still disabled?
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17:05:11cpu98great news for ipod video
17:05:48Tornecpu98: hm?
17:06:05cpu98i'm working on a driver
17:07:46JdGordonsideral: which of my old patches are you runnning?
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17:09:11*gevaerts had similar wonderings :)
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17:09:19gevaertsI bet he's running the loopback image patch
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17:09:37Zagorcpu98: looks great!
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17:11:46n1sgevaerts: that is such an awesome feature that you should finish it!
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17:37:41saratogacpu98: (for the logs) you need to do those tests with a pair of headphones or at least a resistor attached
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18:08:45mrkikoHi all!!! :D:D:D A simple question - is iPod nano 3g supported ? I think it's not, but I'm not certain due to the website formatting
18:09:39 Quit petur (Quit: *plop*)
18:09:54[Saint]No, it isn't. And, what formatting? clearly shows ports in three states. supported, unstable, and unsupported.
18:10:29mrkiko[Saint]: thank you!
18:11:06[Saint]whoops, I messed that up. Stable, unstale, and unsupported.
18:11:19mrkikoI looked in the wiki
18:11:20[Saint]regardless, the Nano3G isn't in any of the categories.
18:12:06mrkiko[Saint]: oh ... I tried using it with the standard firmware - but still, it's one of the less accessible DAPs :D
18:12:48[Saint]hahahah! let's try again. *ahem* Stable, Unstable, and Unusable.
18:12:57*[Saint] is messing up his terminology tonight.
18:16:43mrkiko[Saint]: I would like a DAP with lots of space (even an hdd one), supported by rockbox, again in production. :D:D:D
18:16:57[Saint]Get a Classic then.
18:16:59mrkikois there one ? i was an h3xx user
18:18:02[Saint]the Classic is the only DAP that meets your requirements. (depending on what "lots of space" actually means)
18:19:03gevaertsExcept it's not actually supported decently by rockbox yet
18:19:25[Saint]It works well enough for everyday use.
18:19:39[Saint]but, there are gaps that need filling, certainly.
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18:29:13*[Saint] wonders why Unusable ports isn't formatted thusly on the main page:
18:29:35[Saint]the current formatting either is ordered in some way I don't see a pattern in, or, not at all.
18:30:31[Saint]the other categories appear to be ordered alphabetically by manufacturer.
18:31:10kugelto make clear they second class citizen :)
18:31:32gevaertskugel: *third*!
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18:32:44kugelgevaerts: correct, since unstable ports are links while stables are not!
18:33:25[Saint]that was going to be my second point re: formatting ;)
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18:54:12TioBorrachoI hope someone can help me
18:54:21TioBorrachoI have an old ipod nan 1gn 2 GB
18:54:29TioBorrachoI worked fine for a long time
18:54:42TioBorrachobut suddenly it couldn 't read the partition
18:55:33TioBorrachoI booted in disk mode, checked with badblocks and found several bad blocks in the data partition. It had bad blocks before data section so I couldn't reformat. I repartitioned it skiping some sectors and everythins was ok
18:55:47TioBorrachoIt boots and works ok while attached to the PC or a charger
18:56:08TioBorrachobut If i start it with no connection it just shows the apple screen and turns off immediately
18:56:13TioBorrachoany ideas?
19:03:08TorneThe space before the data partition is the firmware partition..
19:07:22TioBorrachoI mean
19:07:29TioBorrachothe firmware partition is present
19:07:46TioBorrachoIf I run badblocks on that partition I get no errors
19:08:02TioBorrachobut if I try to formt the second partition I get this error from mkfs
19:08:26TioBorrachomkfs.vfat: bad blocks before data-area: cannot make fs
19:09:13Torneit sounds like you may have more bad blocks, anyway :)
19:09:28Tornebadblocks is not a very good test, especially on flash devices, because it doesn't actually write by default
19:09:40Tornebadblocks -w would be better but will destroy all the data
19:09:43Torneincluding the firmware partition
19:12:38TioBorrachono prob with that
19:12:45TioBorrachodata is already f*cked up
19:13:57TioBorrachowhat is strange to me is that while plugged it starts ok
19:14:08TioBorrachobut as soon as I unplug it it shuts down
19:14:28TioBorrachocould it be related to badblocks or something else?
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21:41:53bluebrotherJdGordon: the bot wasn't missing this morning −− I forgot making it act on ACTION events as well. Should be fixed now :)
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22:39:19bluebrotherAlexP: ping
22:39:57bluebrotherI've pushed a script to spellcheck the manual to gerrit (guess that's the first thing on gerrit intended to go in at some point ;-)
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22:40:03bluebrotherwanna have a look?
22:40:22AlexPheh, sure :)
22:40:36sideralpamaury: Have you tested your AMSv2 USB drivers with multiple different hosts?
22:40:43bluebrotherI've added you as reviewer :)
22:40:59bluebrothernow to figure how to push an updated patch −− that one has whitespace errors
22:42:02bluebrotherheh, that was easy :)
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22:43:07AlexPNow I need to work out how to grab it :)
22:44:15bluebrotherhmm. I've added an inline comment but it shows up as draft. Is there any button to make that final I haven't found yet?
22:44:57gevaertsbluebrother: yes, the review buttons
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22:45:47n1sthe gerrit interface isnt' beginner friendly it seems
22:46:20bluebrotherthe interface is a bit you-need-to-get-used-to
22:47:02n1syeah i suppose
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22:47:34n1sthe view all buttons are dangerous too :)
22:47:45bluebrothersince we decided to move to git it would be a good idea for people to wrap commit messages at column 80 or so
22:47:52n1sum diff all
22:48:01Bagderbluebrother: 72 I'd say
22:48:15bluebrotherBagder: fair enough.
22:48:20gevaertsn1s: perfectly harmless here :)
22:48:22Bagderso "git log" still looks fine in 80 column terminals
22:48:42n1sgevaerts: :)
22:48:43Bagderand the first line should preferably be < ~55 or so
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23:04:26pamaurysideral: no, I only have my computer
23:05:16sideralpamaury: perhaps I should rather send you a couple of PCs? :)
23:06:14 Quit GeekShad0w (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
23:06:58pamauryyeah, perhaps I should find another host to test it
23:20:23sideralpamaury: I think that would be the logical next step
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23:46:23*sideral is very fond of his new Clip+ keymap
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23:48:06sideralFinally a sensible place for the soft lock, a hotkey, a consistent way to toggle between menu and WPS, and keymap consistency between WPS and FM radio screen :)
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23:51:08bertriksideral, what, where?
23:51:25sideralbertrik: Clip+
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23:52:03sideralin my private tree :)
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23:52:29sideralanything that caught your eye?
23:52:35fs-bluebot Player: one-touch volume (feature, closed)
23:52:54bluebrotherurgh, wrong response target.
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23:53:07*bluebrother needs to fix that.
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23:53:45 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik)
23:53:56bertrikI wouldn't mind a more sensible clip+ keymap
23:55:21sideralbertrik: I hear changing it in SVN involves politics, and I've had enough of that for today. :) But I'd be very open to your input!
23:56:44bertriksideral, can I get your keymap somehow?
23:56:49sideralWould you like me to describe my rationale, or rather have a look at the code directly?
23:57:23bertrikplease describe it first
23:58:07sideralAbout the code: I thought of uploading it to FS #11605 <> as an alternative solution, or opening a new task for it
23:58:07fs-bluebot Clip+ new keymap (patches, unconfirmed)
23:58:29sideralJust a sec, I'll outline it for you
23:58:48bertrikI couldn't care less about the quickscreen, but would like an easy go-to-WPS key (e.g. HOME for switching to the WPS and back), and something like long-HOME for lock

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