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| 03:40:38 | hw30 | I read on http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FasterMDCT that "Get the MDCT working in Rockbox without distortion (DONE!)" |
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| 03:40:53 | hw30 | does anyone know where in the code this error was ? |
| 03:41:25 | hw30 | and if it was specific to ffmpeg's existing mdct |
| 03:48:31 | | Part hw30 |
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| 08:08:19 | saratoga | scorche: ban Nong_mokmoon69 |
| 08:11:16 | JdGordon | done |
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| 08:14:45 | pixelma | JdGordon: could you clean out what the akismet plugin caught too while at it (there's at least one post with signature spam which got caught but one can still see it in "Recent Posts") |
| 08:15:08 | JdGordon | done |
| 08:15:33 | pixelma | thanks |
| 08:21:11 | saratoga | current build page is now down entirely |
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| 08:54:18 | CIA-58 | r30006 build result: All green |
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| 09:00 |
| 09:00:01 | JdGordon | scorche: we cant ban non-english sigs can we? |
| 09:02:14 | [Saint] | Hmmmm...it *is* an English speaking forum... |
| 09:03:40 | JdGordon | the spam sig is always Thai (i tinhk its thai anyway) |
| 09:04:56 | [Saint] | Oh, right...if it's spam, then I'd say by all means. I just thought you meant banning *any* non-English sig. |
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| 09:16:12 | | Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 09:20:03 | kugelp | it sucks to have no builds when the release is around |
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| 09:25:56 | * | [Saint] wonders what these warning whilst building a voicefile are about: http://pastebin.com/nmzr0LRN |
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| 09:29:49 | Zagor | kugelp: relax. the release is not for another two weeks. plus you know I'm working to fix it. |
| 09:31:19 | JdGordon | plus the build systems doesnt build the release :) |
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| 09:33:27 | CIA-58 | r30006 build result: All green |
| 09:34:00 | kugelp | It's about testing. after the freeze the current builds are not as useful because its open for normaldevelopment again |
| 09:34:17 | kugelp | but I'm chilling :-) |
| 09:34:36 | [Saint] | cia sure is dedicated to the 30006 build result. |
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| 09:47:54 | sideral | Saint: That's because it's such a cool commit! |
| 09:50:50 | JdGordon | rasher: any chance you could fix langtool to copy the dest string to the voice string on a specific LANG_ id please? |
| 09:51:38 | JdGordon | or anyone else even :) |
| 09:52:40 | * | JdGordon wants to commit FS #12158 bigfix for release |
| 09:52:50 | JdGordon | aww... no bluebroth3r-bot |
| 09:54:40 | [Saint] | (disclaimer: fix is not actually very big at all ;)) |
| 10:00 |
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| 10:15:42 | Zagor | ahh, there we go. zips and deltas are back |
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| 10:23:18 | Zagor | cia repeating build results is due to me re-running build rounds |
| 10:27:52 | kugel | hm, I somehow removed the cores= option in my build client. does it detect cores in that case? |
| 10:30:10 | Zagor | yes |
| 10:30:24 | kugel | then I probably didn't have that option :) |
| 10:30:30 | Zagor | :-) |
| 10:34:38 | sideral | Zagor: Thanks for bringing the infrastructure back up! |
| 10:36:35 | * | Zagor bows |
| 10:37:11 | gevaerts | sideral: he's not a superhero for *nothing* :) |
| 10:40:17 | sideral | Superhero? Right −− now go fix the Flyspray search by player type ;) |
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| 10:46:11 | sideral | BTW Zagor, I eventually would fancy trying to add that search type to our FS; I often miss it. Would you be willing to run such a modification, and is the current FS instance's source code available somewhere? |
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| 10:48:12 | * | [Saint] thought that FS was dead but just doesn't know it yet. |
| 10:48:14 | | Quit antil33t (Disconnected by services) |
| 10:48:22 | [Saint] | (It's probably cruel to tell it ;)) |
| 10:48:27 | Zagor | it seems pretty dead as a project, yes |
| 10:48:47 | Zagor | sideral: sure, I'd be happy to get some flyspray improvements |
| 10:51:40 | sideral | Saint: In case you're referring to our FS instance: I've seen in the logs some talk about deprecating FS for patches, but not for bugs. |
| 10:53:05 | sideral | BTW, if we migrate patches elsewhere, I think that we shouldn't just delete (or even close or archive elsewhere) all existing patch tasks on FS. |
| 10:53:10 | Zagor | yes, we discussed that at devcon. the gerrit test is part of that. |
| 10:53:32 | Zagor | sideral: well we at least have to make them read-only |
| 10:54:23 | sideral | At least all links into FS should stay intact, as well as the query capabilities |
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| 10:54:46 | | Quit dan_a (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 10:55:41 | sideral | Also, FS has some features I find really useful when browsing patches (and bugs) that I'd want to see in any new system: Query by category, version, and status, for example |
| 10:56:18 | Torne | sideral: that kinda goes against the general consensus, i think |
| 10:56:30 | Zagor | well, we don't want two systems for patches. we want a new system that does everything better. |
| 10:56:32 | Torne | we don't want to ahve a huge repository of searchable stuff that nobody has finished and nobody is going to commit |
| 10:56:46 | Torne | the point is to make the author responsible for pushing it forward, and if they don't then it dies |
| 10:57:09 | Torne | having lots of ways to discover what patches exist is counterproductive there |
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| 10:58:05 | sideral | I think having an archive of unapplied patches is very useful. For example, I run several patches that didn't make it into the tree. And I know many users and developers do as well. |
| 10:58:35 | Torne | isn't that something we want to discourage? |
| 10:58:44 | Torne | fragmentation sucks from a support POV |
| 10:58:57 | sideral | I'd rather encourage it, to get more people interested in developing and submitting |
| 10:59:08 | sideral | we don't support unofficial patches |
| 10:59:18 | Zagor | so we should we host them? |
| 10:59:36 | sideral | Yes, I find FS very useful as a patch-hosting system |
| 10:59:38 | Zagor | why |
| 10:59:49 | Torne | This is not a benefit! |
| 10:59:57 | Torne | that's part of the reason FS is so useless right now ;) |
| 10:59:58 | sideral | because it's a one-stop shop to see what's available. |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:06 | Torne | because a bunch of peopole are using it as a way to maintain stuff which will never go into the tree |
| 11:00:14 | sideral | It's useful to them |
| 11:00:23 | Zagor | sideral: we specifically want to get away from having a pile of patches "on our desk" that are not going to get committed |
| 11:00:25 | Torne | if it's not going into the tree then it's not useful to the project |
| 11:00:29 | sideral | So why not accommodate it? |
| 11:00:47 | sideral | I think it is useful to the project, if only as an inspiration. That's what it is to me, at least |
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| 11:01:30 | sideral | It's fine if there's a decision not to commit. But I think providing a way to maintain it anyway does no harm |
| 11:01:30 | Zagor | I can sort of see the point, but they should not be mixed with patches we work with |
| 11:02:07 | Torne | OK, so either way: the patch review thing is for patch review |
| 11:02:11 | Torne | it is not a way to find stuff |
| 11:02:18 | Torne | If you want to find stuff, link to it from somewhere |
| 11:02:23 | sideral | The fragmentation that would ensue if we close the central repo for patches is much worse than the current fragmentation methinks |
| 11:02:36 | Zagor | but it becomes a maintenance burden no matter how it's done. and I'd rather outsource that. |
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| 11:02:57 | Torne | the thing most visible on gerrit is the patches you wrote, or the patches you have reviewed or been asked to review |
| 11:03:01 | Torne | and that's fine |
| 11:03:10 | Torne | It is possible to search for things by other criteria, but it's not aimed at that use case |
| 11:03:42 | sideral | Not being ably to query patches by category / player / version / status seems like a regression to the status quo to me. |
| 11:03:59 | sideral | Does Gerrit have a mechanism to tag patches, possibly in a structured way? |
| 11:04:12 | Torne | no |
| 11:04:19 | Torne | it's a *patch review system* |
| 11:04:40 | sideral | Then it does strictly less than what FS does today ==> regression |
| 11:04:40 | Torne | it is for doing code reviews. it hosts patches purely so you have something to review. |
| 11:05:03 | Torne | yes. |
| 11:05:06 | Torne | This is the point :) |
| 11:05:19 | Torne | the consensus at devcon is we *do not want to do* the use case you have in mind. at all, with any tool. |
| 11:05:26 | Zagor | sideral: this whole debate was started by me and bagder because we want to get away from the "X hundred patches" list. we only want patches that are currently considered. |
| 11:05:30 | sideral | Why can't we have that system (which I find useful) in addition to FS? |
| 11:05:51 | Torne | if there are two places then it's extremely difficult to work out what the current state of something is |
| 11:06:13 | sideral | In which way is the patch repo a maintenance burden? |
| 11:06:58 | sideral | There's no need to look at the pile daily and feel bad about it :) |
| 11:07:00 | Torne | it is full of crap to the point that virtually all developers ignore it completely |
| 11:07:06 | Zagor | I mean doing a new repo for "unofficial" patches |
| 11:07:13 | Zagor | would be a burden |
| 11:07:39 | Torne | if people want to maintain changes to rockbox there are lots of ways to do that, and once we switch to git it will be even easier |
| 11:07:47 | Torne | they can fork it onto github |
| 11:07:48 | Torne | or whatever. |
| 11:08:00 | Zagor | since we plan to keep using FS for bugs, having unofficial patches there would be confusing |
| 11:08:06 | Torne | i was going to see about having gerrit push a mirror of our tree to github specifically so that people can do that quickly :) |
| 11:08:06 | | Quit ruskie (Excess Flood) |
| 11:08:11 | sideral | Torne: That's not consistent with my use of the tracker, and with what I observe other devs do. People frequently reference old FS tasks when stuff comes up |
| 11:08:28 | Torne | sideral: and the fact that those are old is *a serious failing* |
| 11:08:39 | Torne | if they are still worth referencing when they are old then they should have been committed already :) |
| 11:08:51 | Torne | stuff that's old should either be in the tree or uninteresting |
| 11:08:54 | sideral | Torne: I disagree. It's a benefit that those are still available |
| 11:09:12 | Torne | sure, you can disagree |
| 11:09:12 | sideral | Github fork -> fragmentation -> bad |
| 11:09:17 | Torne | but so far you are in a minority of one |
| 11:09:26 | sideral | Torne: I'm used to that :) |
| 11:09:47 | Torne | It's not the same if it's *somewhere else*. |
| 11:09:52 | sideral | I don't see the benefit of cutting off one's history |
| 11:09:52 | Torne | People expect to get support with things they got from "us" |
| 11:10:01 | Torne | where "us" includes everything on flyspray |
| 11:10:09 | sideral | No, they don't |
| 11:10:12 | Torne | Yes they do |
| 11:10:18 | Torne | People ask questions about patched builds all the time |
| 11:10:37 | | Join ruskie [0] (ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
| 11:10:58 | sideral | Maybe. But there you see: people run patches builds, because patches are useful to them |
| 11:11:59 | * | sideral needs to go offline for some time. Thanks for the discussion so far! Later... |
| 11:12:20 | Torne | people do lots of things, and i don't go out of my way to help them do most of it ;) |
| 11:13:03 | n1s | i think the way fs works encourages people to post unfinished stuff which is usefull for getting comments on stuff you are working on but also leavs a lot of unmaintained half finished crap |
| 11:13:12 | | Quit ruskie (Excess Flood) |
| 11:13:42 | n1s | will posting a half finished patch for comments be on the ML or in gerrit? |
| 11:13:51 | Torne | gerrit |
| 11:13:57 | Zagor | yes, I think the fact that we have a repo of crap is a minor problem. the real problem is that the "hot" patches are drowning in the crap. |
| 11:16:36 | | Join ruskie [0] (ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
| 11:19:51 | | Join mudd1 [0] (~cmertes@2001:638:504:20e0:221:70ff:fe83:655e) |
| 11:20:54 | Torne | Zagor: it's kidna encouraged by being treated the same as bugs |
| 11:21:09 | Torne | since people submit bugs and generally expect that we will try and deal with them, which is not unreasonable |
| 11:21:20 | Zagor | I agree |
| 11:21:26 | Torne | but they aslo submit patches that implement new features that we've not even discussed, let alone agree that we *want* |
| 11:21:35 | Torne | and they also expect those to be dealt with |
| 11:22:04 | n1s | yes, the follow through of non committer devs is usually rather low |
| 11:22:06 | Torne | moving to a seperate thing, regardless of the specific features of the new tool, gives us an opportunity to draw a line and declare "if you upload stuff here then pushing it forward is your job, not ours" |
| 11:22:23 | | Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 11:22:28 | n1s | yeah, that is good i think |
| 11:22:31 | Torne | these are not feature-requests-with-patches-attached, they are code reviews |
| 11:22:48 | Torne | if you want to convince us the feature is valuable you have to talk to us; the code review thing is for us to critique your C :) |
| 11:23:31 | Zagor | only we'll be more insulting |
| 11:23:36 | Zagor | obviously ;-) |
| 11:23:37 | Torne | haha |
| 11:24:16 | Zagor | maybe we should adapt linus torvalds style. "anyone who wants this feature has brain damage!" |
| 11:24:26 | Torne | hehe |
| 11:24:41 | Torne | but yeah, i think it's a not unreasonable argument against caring too much about discoverability |
| 11:25:10 | Torne | you *can* search gerrit, it understands status, what branch things are aimed at, a topic branch name if it was uploaded with one, current review status, etc |
| 11:25:16 | Torne | and it searches descriptions/titles |
| 11:25:49 | Torne | but having tags for what players, features, etc is kinda.. meh |
| 11:26:15 | * | sideral is back |
| 11:26:24 | Torne | (you can also create watchlists which notify you when reviews are uploaded that touch certain files/directories/branches, so you have the opportunity to step in on something that changes code you are well acquainted with and say "no you're doing it wrong") :) |
| 11:26:46 | Torne | i can see myself watching firmware/drivers/ata.c ;) |
| 11:27:16 | sideral | so if having a repo of crap and distinguishing it from patches sent for review should be possible? |
| 11:27:26 | n1s | i hope this system will make people more inclined to review patches and it sounds like it just might do that |
| 11:27:37 | Torne | n1s: i think so |
| 11:27:47 | Torne | you can see the patch without downloading it, with full-file context |
| 11:28:15 | Torne | and you can tell which version is current, and see comments that apply specifically to that version, not ones that are addressed already |
| 11:28:16 | | Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@207-144-19-39.cstel.net) |
| 11:28:17 | n1s | that is very nice |
| 11:28:35 | Torne | that makes it a lot quicker to just drop by and comment on a bit in one file, even if you don't care much about the patch as a whole |
| 11:28:38 | Torne | :) |
| 11:29:22 | n1s | is there an easy way to download the patch for testing or do i still need to get the patch file and apply it? |
| 11:29:30 | Torne | n1s: it's a ref in the git repository |
| 11:29:36 | Torne | gerrit gives you several choices of command to copypaste to apply it locally |
| 11:29:43 | n1s | cool |
| 11:29:46 | Torne | you can check it out, cherrypick it, pull to it |
| 11:29:57 | Torne | (and this works anonymously also so people do not need gerrit/ssh accounts to do that) |
| 11:30:24 | * | n1s still needs to read up on the git terms as those three methods mean nothing to him :) |
| 11:30:32 | sideral | Can't we just say, introduce / discuss / host your patch on FS if you want, but if you want it committed, go to gerrit? That would also allow people to retract to FS for more discussion if their patch is rejected in gerrit |
| 11:31:12 | Torne | n1s: cherry-pick is usually the one you want: it's functionally equivalent to downloading a diff and applying it |
| 11:31:25 | Torne | except it handles conflict resolution using the full git merge algorithm so it's more likely to work |
| 11:31:40 | n1s | ok, sounds nice |
| 11:31:55 | Zagor | sideral: I don't want every patch discussion in two places. the forum is probably better for such "light talk" |
| 11:32:02 | Torne | Zagor: or the mailing list |
| 11:32:12 | Torne | We already have several palces people can talk about stuff, wehther it's worth it, etc |
| 11:32:23 | Torne | start a forum thread, or mailing list thread, with a link to your code review in gerrit |
| 11:32:43 | Torne | if it's not getting any traction |
| 11:32:46 | Torne | or come on IRC and bug people. |
| 11:34:04 | Torne | sideral: FS is just a bad way to store and discuss patches, at all, whether you intend to commit them or not |
| 11:34:30 | Torne | Other than the diffstat output it treats patches like any other arbitrary blob attachment |
| 11:34:37 | sideral | I agree it could be better. I just don't want to lose its query features |
| 11:34:40 | Torne | you can't point at lines in the patch, you can't even tellw hich version of the patch is which |
| 11:35:04 | Torne | you can't even view the patch directly without downloading it in most browsers because it sets content-disposition on the attachment link ;) |
| 11:35:41 | Zagor | sideral: seems we have quite opposing views. we explicitly want to remove the patch graveyeard. you explicitly want to keep it :-) |
| 11:36:09 | Torne | yah, there is not really a compromise between those two |
| 11:36:35 | sideral | Zagor: It's not so very opposing I think. Let's establish some common ground: |
| 11:36:46 | sideral | I think having a patch-review system is good |
| 11:37:13 | [Saint] | moral: we > you ;) |
| 11:37:23 | Zagor | haha |
| 11:37:29 | [Saint] | (that's "the royal we", btw) |
| 11:37:51 | sideral | Would you agree with keeping at least a R/O queriable FS instance intact so that URLs pointing into it won't get invalid? |
| 11:38:17 | Torne | we're not currently planning to get rid of flyspray.. |
| 11:38:26 | Torne | since we're not going to use another bug tracker (at this point) |
| 11:38:37 | Torne | the most we are likely to do is at some point, mass close all patches |
| 11:38:44 | Torne | or maybe only ones that haven't been commented on for a while |
| 11:38:55 | sideral | how do you plan to deal with patches in response to bug reports? host on FS or link from FS to gerrit? |
| 11:39:32 | Torne | if you have a patch that fixes a bug, whether you are the bug reporter or not, upload the patch to gerrit for review and put a link in the bug thread |
| 11:39:33 | Zagor | a bug report with a patch is a patch, in my view |
| 11:39:58 | Zagor | a bug report is a report about a bug with no known (or at lest no done) fix |
| 11:40:11 | sideral | I think we've established that gerrit cannot double as an issue tracker right now |
| 11:40:27 | Zagor | absolutely. we don't want gerrit for bugs. |
| 11:40:33 | Zagor | gerrit is strictly for patches |
| 11:40:49 | sideral | OK |
| 11:40:57 | Torne | the term "patch" is getting somewhat overloaded i think |
| 11:42:12 | sideral | I'd like us to not close patches on FS unless we'd close them under the status quo (e.g., no interest for > 1yr) or they've been migrated to gerrit |
| 11:42:29 | Torne | what benefit does that give you? |
| 11:42:39 | Torne | closing them doesn't delete them |
| 11:42:44 | Torne | you can still find them |
| 11:43:01 | sideral | I don't lose track of their status. Overwriting the status with "closed" puts them into the rejected pile |
| 11:43:18 | Torne | what's wrong with going closed, out of date, if you are still interested in having this committed upload a proposed change to gerrit and invite comment somewhere |
| 11:43:49 | Torne | sideral: yes |
| 11:44:16 | Torne | The people who are watching the FS# entry will get notified it's been closed |
| 11:44:17 | sideral | My major problem with these changes is that there's no structured way to query what's already available. |
| 11:44:29 | Torne | If none of those people care enough to try and push it forward then it's dead. |
| 11:44:38 | Zagor | sideral: define "available"? |
| 11:44:52 | sideral | Zagor: as in, people have been working on this area before |
| 11:45:08 | Torne | sideral: you are thinking of "patches" as "things that someone can download and apply to their tree to make it behave differently". a delicious buffet of things to try. |
| 11:45:24 | sideral | For example, I draw huge inspiration from 3–4 year old database patches that are still around in FS |
| 11:45:28 | Torne | We are thinking of "patches" as "proposed changes to trunk which should ideally be accepted or rejected as quickly as possible" |
| 11:45:43 | Torne | a queue of stuff to get through, that should be minimised. ;) |
| 11:45:52 | Zagor | sideral: how are they any less available when closed? |
| 11:46:13 | sideral | Torne: sometimes you don't have developers that can look at the proposals for several years, as has been the case with the DB |
| 11:46:32 | Torne | nobody is proposing *deleting* anything here |
| 11:46:40 | Torne | for reference, gerrit reviews which are abandoned are also not deleted |
| 11:46:41 | sideral | Zagor: when they're closed, it's hard to distinguish them from done and already rejected stuff |
| 11:46:50 | kugel | sideral: should we hope that in a few years someone comes by and looks at old patches? |
| 11:47:05 | kugel | no, we should encourage the authors to get it committed at the time of posting |
| 11:47:11 | sideral | kugel: Haven't you hoped that I would come and salvage the DB? ;) |
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| 11:47:31 | kugel | yes, but not because of the patches on FS |
| 11:47:31 | Torne | sideral: and you would be prevented from doing that how? |
| 11:47:38 | sideral | kugel: That's not always possible, I'm afraid |
| 11:48:03 | Zagor | sideral: I think we can add a close reason "flyspray abandoned" or something, to help you distinguish |
| 11:48:11 | kugel | sideral: then the patch is not suitable and we shouldn't be concerned with it any further |
| 11:48:29 | sideral | Torne, Zagor: I'd hate to lose any metadata about proposed changes. Having to way to query for status / category is a regression to the status quo |
| 11:48:44 | Torne | you keep saying "status" |
| 11:48:51 | Torne | of course gerrit knows what status something is in |
| 11:48:57 | Zagor | sideral: I strongly disagree. the current system is a tar pit. |
| 11:49:04 | Torne | there are three: open, merged, abandoned |
| 11:49:06 | Zagor | patches are dumped into it, and never seen again |
| 11:49:30 | Zagor | we want to vastly speed up the review process in order to get more things accepted, and developers encouraged |
| 11:49:45 | | Join Rob2222 [0] (~Miranda@p4FFF16E8.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:49:45 | sideral | Zagor: That you don't know. As I said, I do look at old stuff for my area of expertise |
| 11:50:05 | kugel | saidly you're the only one doing this |
| 11:50:11 | Zagor | and we also want to move the initiative from us to the developer. distrubuting the work scales better. |
| 11:50:32 | kugel | even committers tend to dump patches on FS and never look at it again |
| 11:50:39 | Zagor | sideral: old stuff is not going to disappear. it will stay in your mailbox for as long as you want. |
| 11:50:43 | sideral | I understand these motivations, and they are good. |
| 11:50:46 | GodEater_ | sideral: I fail to understand the difference between "open" stuff so old it has mould growing on it, and "closed" stuff in the same state. |
| 11:51:31 | sideral | But I don't like abandoning stuff quickly with no way of querying it |
| 11:52:10 | Zagor | sideral: sort your mails |
| 11:52:15 | kugel | and I strongly disagree that we should have a patch graveyard for the convinience of people that don't want to make it into mainline (i.e. forks) |
| 11:52:22 | sideral | Torne: I understand that gerrit keeps a status. But you agreed that there's no way to query by category, for example. Or player type, version, ... |
| 11:52:35 | Torne | sideral: that stuff is useless noise in virtually every patch in FS |
| 11:52:42 | Torne | It's marginally less useless in bugs |
| 11:52:47 | Torne | but largely those fields are unspecified or wrong |
| 11:52:49 | sideral | Zagor: That's precisely what we have an issue tracker for. My mailbox is no replacement |
| 11:53:07 | Zagor | yes it is. it moves the responsibility from us to you. |
| 11:53:17 | AlexP | This was all discussed and decided at devcon I thought |
| 11:53:18 | sideral | Torne: Not true for at least "Database", "Bookmarks" |
| 11:53:23 | Torne | sideral: Yes it is |
| 11:53:49 | Torne | also, if you are interested in changes that affect the database, gerrit can notify you about anything that touches tagcache.c |
| 11:53:51 | kugel | sideral: are you sure you didn't overlook a couple of db patches that are not tagged with database? ;) |
| 11:53:58 | Torne | you don['t need to rely on tags manually added |
| 11:54:00 | sideral | AlexP: Are you suggesting I should shut up and not voice my concern? |
| 11:54:02 | Torne | you can *see what files things change* |
| 11:54:19 | AlexP | sideral: No, just that it would have been better if you had done it during the discussion |
| 11:54:38 | AlexP | Also, that you need to argue really well to change the decision :) |
| 11:54:41 | GodEater_ | we made the discussion at devcon public for a reason |
| 11:55:15 | sideral | AlexP: Apologies for not having been available at that time |
| 11:55:18 | AlexP | Of course I'm not saying you can't expound your view :) |
| 11:55:25 | sideral | kugel: Yes, I am :) |
| 11:55:27 | Zagor | well, to be fair it wasn't announced that we were going to discuss the patch process |
| 11:55:35 | AlexP | No indeed |
| 11:55:36 | Zagor | it was a spontaneous topic |
| 11:55:42 | AlexP | I'm not blaiming him |
| 11:55:50 | AlexP | blaming either |
| 11:55:58 | AlexP | Just saying it is a pity :) |
| 11:56:01 | Torne | well, I brought it up because the option of gerrit affects how we do the git migration ;) |
| 11:56:04 | Torne | but yeah. |
| 11:56:27 | Torne | btw, re the actual migration, people are still slowly coming by and filling in email addresses after I spammed all the people who hadn't ;) |
| 11:56:36 | Torne | so that's good |
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| 11:56:52 | AlexP | sideral: I didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't comment at all |
| 11:59:24 | sideral | I think I understand you guys' view better now. And you now know I like FS's query and archiving capabilities, and its potential to allow people to host / maintain Rockbox-related patches with no way of having them committed ever. |
| 12:00 |
| 12:01:28 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 12:01:55 | sideral | BTW, I use several patches posted there by Rockbox developers (gevaerts, JdGordon, bertrik and myself) on my player −− stuff that they just haven't polished up or don't intend to commit, but I find useful nontheless |
| 12:02:14 | Torne | Then you should prod those people to do something with them |
| 12:02:16 | Torne | or do it yourself. |
| 12:02:19 | kugel | FS is not the right place for stuff not intended to be committed |
| 12:02:28 | Torne | The fact that you are continuing to use those patches without doing anything to get them in the tree is *bad* |
| 12:02:38 | sideral | No, it isn't. :) |
| 12:02:41 | Torne | especially since you have the power to do what you like, really, as you are a committer |
| 12:02:49 | GodEater_ | I don't think anywhere on the rockbox.org domain is the right place for stuff never intended to be committed. |
| 12:03:02 | kugel | agreed |
| 12:03:02 | sideral | My time is limited, and I prioritize stuff |
| 12:03:27 | sideral | Here I disagree with GodEater and kugel. |
| 12:03:28 | Torne | sideral: It doesn't take much time to send a quick email to prod someone about it |
| 12:03:36 | Torne | people forget stuff |
| 12:03:36 | | Quit antil33t| () |
| 12:04:15 | sideral | And people's time is limited. Often they cannot invest the time right now to complete the config / manual changes to to enter the flame wars about including a feature right now. |
| 12:04:28 | sideral | Often it's just the best thing at the moment to leave stuff simmering in FS. |
| 12:05:13 | Torne | yes, often it can't get committed right now |
| 12:05:20 | Torne | but that doesn't mean you should just be happy with that state |
| 12:05:29 | kugel | sideral: a few days or weeks is ok, but not several *years* |
| 12:05:40 | Torne | it's still bad that you are having to use a patch |
| 12:05:51 | Torne | i'm nto saying you must resolve it immediately :) |
| 12:06:17 | sideral | My Rockbox TODO file counts 37 projects, not including small one-offs. Lots of stuff won't be completed in a year, but I may want to put it up on FS / whereever anyway for other people to use / comment on |
| 12:06:44 | sideral | I'm not saying I'm happy about it :) |
| 12:08:06 | sideral | I'm just accepting reality |
| 12:09:04 | kugel | so, in the future you can point people to your external git repo for stuff you don't complete in the near future |
| 12:09:19 | sideral | fragmentation => bad |
| 12:09:34 | Torne | no |
| 12:09:47 | Torne | people running different things and believing it's "close enough" is bad |
| 12:09:47 | kugel | patches on FS is the same fragmentation. it's just worse because it's not as visible |
| 12:10:08 | sideral | It's bad because it makes it hard to discover interesting stuff, for example |
| 12:10:09 | kugel | you're running a patched build, as are several people. that *is* fragementation, just not as obvious |
| 12:10:09 | Torne | people being able to run their own version of something is open source :) |
| 12:10:40 | kugel | a github mirror should make things easy to discover, at least other forks |
| 12:11:14 | * | sideral thanks you guys for your comments and time. Need to hurry to lunch now. Later! |
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| 13:00 |
| 13:24:23 | AlexP | sideral: The policy has always been that flyspray is only for stuff intended to get committed |
| 13:24:41 | AlexP | We shut things not intended to go in if we notice |
| 13:25:22 | AlexP | Or have done in the past :) |
| 13:28:31 | sideral | AlexP: I think Rockbox has way too many policies for such a small project. ;) |
| 13:29:04 | Torne | small? |
| 13:29:07 | GodEater_ | and again, you're in a minority |
| 13:29:18 | Torne | we have 130-odd committers |
| 13:29:24 | Torne | that puts us well, well above the median |
| 13:29:52 | Torne | and 30000 revisions, and 183MB of code |
| 13:29:56 | Torne | these are all well above average :) |
| 13:31:19 | n1s | sideral: we need policies or all this evolves into an unnavigatable mess |
| 13:31:34 | * | sideral hints at the smiley |
| 13:32:41 | n1s | imagine if everyone would post their "custom build patch" to fs... |
| 13:32:50 | sideral | I don't intend to get involved with the politics too much, being a relatively "young" committer |
| 13:33:57 | [Saint] | you need to know them, though, so when stuff like this happens you're not the only one asking why it is. |
| 13:34:25 | sideral | n1s: I'm not concerned about that too much. What gets committed is what defines Rockbox. Accommodating patches locally is just a healthy way of preventing fragmentation in my view |
| 13:34:36 | pamaury | this is not about politics imo, in every group you have to have some rules, otherwise it's chaos |
| 13:34:59 | Torne | How does hosting the patches prevent fragmentation? |
| 13:35:21 | GodEater_ | sideral: you're just wrong - having a load of patches that never get commited in one place doesn't make it any more fragmented than having them littered all over the internet. |
| 13:35:21 | Torne | Generally in projects it's *healthier* for there to be an actual fork somewhere else, than for a large proportion of users to build custom builds with different patches |
| 13:35:25 | sideral | Torne: Its a detriment to some unhappy group forking the project |
| 13:35:30 | Torne | Forking is fine! |
| 13:35:36 | Torne | forking is how these things are supposed to work |
| 13:35:50 | Torne | if a group of people object to our direction so much they are going to fork the whole project for it then *that's okay* |
| 13:35:56 | Torne | that is not fragmentation |
| 13:36:02 | GodEater_ | that's the point of open source! |
| 13:36:17 | Torne | users all having a slightly differnet build with slightly different patches: that is fragmentation |
| 13:36:22 | Torne | it doesnt' matter where those patches came from |
| 13:36:42 | sideral | Torne: But that's the reality −− partly because Rockbox is reluctant to accept new features |
| 13:37:02 | gevaerts | I don't think rockbox is reluctant to accept new features |
| 13:37:05 | Torne | It's not the reality tot he degree you think |
| 13:37:21 | Torne | The users who have lots of patches are very likely to be active on forums/flyspray/etc |
| 13:37:29 | Torne | the users who just use our builds are much less likely to be *communicative* |
| 13:37:36 | Torne | but they still exist :) |
| 13:38:05 | Torne | and yeah, i am not at all convinced we are reluctant to accept new features |
| 13:38:28 | Torne | at devcon we basically agreed that the reality was that DAPs are largely dying and our future is probably as a playback engine used by native UIs on mobile/etc devices ;) |
| 13:38:36 | [Saint] | I'd actually like an example of that personally. I can't particularly think of one myself. |
| 13:38:36 | gevaerts | We're just reluctant to spend time on them if they were written by other people :) |
| 13:38:41 | Torne | if we can stomach that then new features is not a big deal |
| 13:38:45 | Zagor | I'd say we are *slow* to accept patches, which is one of the reasons we want a better patch system |
| 13:39:06 | Torne | indeed |
| 13:39:19 | sideral | I hope you're right :) |
| 13:39:34 | Torne | i think we are also not always great at explaining what's wrong with a patch without giving people the impression that the entire concept of the feature is bad |
| 13:39:57 | GodEater_ | I think our acceptance speed in the past has bee due to the extremely limited resources our targets had - we REALLY wanted to make sure the feature was optimised to the nth level and was REALLY worth it. |
| 13:40:06 | Zagor | It struck me yesterday that our possible future as a library may give reason to think some more about our licensing |
| 13:40:09 | Torne | but it doesn't help that people who send one-time patches have a tendency to just throw us something fully-formed and complete which they want committed as-is |
| 13:40:13 | GodEater_ | if we're moving away from those limited platforms, we can choose to be a lot less picky |
| 13:40:20 | Torne | which they haven't actually discussed with anyone beforehand |
| 13:40:34 | Torne | so when we tell them "oh we can't take it like this it adds eleven million options" or whatever, they give up |
| 13:41:04 | Torne | if they had involved us earlier in *their* development process (e.g. by posting in-progress work to a code review system, or a git branch, or similar) then we could've guided their direction towards something acceptable |
| 13:41:23 | Zagor | GodEater_: the platform shift also will likely include more forks |
| 13:41:25 | Torne | Zagor: possibly |
| 13:41:38 | Torne | Zagor: i was imagining that we would also be writing at least some of the apps using the library |
| 13:42:10 | Zagor | yes, but I imagine if/when we have a good library other people are going to want to do their take of what a music player should be |
| 13:42:13 | cpu98 | anyone want to help me? HZ delay... is HZ 1 sec? |
| 13:42:20 | Torne | cpu98: yes |
| 13:42:24 | cpu98 | thanks!!! |
| 13:42:30 | Torne | Zagor: oh, sure. |
| 13:42:48 | Torne | Zagor: but then we need to exert what pressure we can on those people to not just patch rockbox to suit their app |
| 13:42:55 | Torne | and to instead contribute back to us to make the library fit more needs |
| 13:43:01 | Zagor | yup |
| 13:43:23 | Zagor | I think mainly there will be forks of the UI and not so much the lib |
| 13:43:23 | Torne | so from that POV I would say our current license is good :) |
| 13:44:00 | pamaury | the point of open source development is also to contribute back your changes, if possible |
| 13:44:12 | Torne | Zagor: if the library has enough functionality then the UI might be light enough that it's not worth really forking it :) |
| 13:44:14 | [Saint] | forks of the UI? really? |
| 13:44:36 | sideral | Anyway, I believe hosting any diversity ourselves, and making it as accessible (queriable) as possible, is good for the overall health of the project, as it allows developers to learn from history. That's the way I use FS, and that I'd hate to lose. |
| 13:44:46 | Torne | [Saint]: virtually all "controversial" feature discussions are about UI |
| 13:44:56 | Zagor | Torne: but UI is 90% of the experience for many people. and *everyone* has an opinion about it. |
| 13:45:07 | Torne | Zagor: no, i mean: rather than forking it they would just write one |
| 13:45:12 | Zagor | right |
| 13:45:59 | GodEater_ | yeah, you'd have to be a real masochist to fork ours ;) |
| 13:46:01 | Torne | sideral: but we're also trying to learn from history here, and history teaches us that the current approach results in 90% of patches rotting |
| 13:46:05 | Zagor | sideral: I don't think flyspray is a good description of our history |
| 13:46:13 | Torne | whether they are good or not |
| 13:46:14 | | Join robin0800 [0] (~quassel@cpc3-brig8-0-0-cust703.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 13:46:31 | [Saint] | the UI can already be completely re-implemented in a theme...however *completely* re-doing it (my hacky way) will overflow almost any skin RAM except the applications. iiuc JD is making "the right way" for themers to juggle the UI presently. |
| 13:46:46 | Torne | [Saint]: That's not the kind of UI we were considering here at all |
| 13:46:54 | Torne | [Saint]: We were talking more about: using 100% native android UI widgets ;) |
| 13:46:56 | [Saint] | (not really important, just a side not that I think UI forking might be lessened by that if it gets in) |
| 13:47:04 | Torne | which would probably remove theming entirely |
| 13:47:04 | GodEater_ | sideral: I think we've pointed out now numerous times we're NOT DELETING FS - we're just closing patches in rot hell - so you're losing nothing |
| 13:47:09 | Torne | or at least make it superficial :) |
| 13:47:20 | Zagor | [Saint]: I mean full rewrite, from scratch. "MyFirstMusicPlayer" that just uses the rockplay lib |
| 13:47:42 | [Saint] | Aha, right. Gotcha. |
| 13:47:43 | Torne | yah. the library handles playback, codecs, metadata parsing, finding album art, whatever |
| 13:47:56 | sideral | GodEater: I do understand that. But for new patches, there will be no FS, no? |
| 13:47:56 | Torne | you literally just have to write some way to create/choose playlists/tracks and you have a UI |
| 13:48:08 | pamaury | that's why we need to be agreat library and a great UI :) |
| 13:48:09 | Torne | and any other features in the UI are up to you :) |
| 13:48:14 | GodEater_ | sideral: no, because the majority opinion is that FS for patches is shit :) |
| 13:48:43 | Torne | GodEater_: the problem is that sideral seems to think that patches in FS are actually discoverable |
| 13:48:46 | * | sideral has his own statistics, and his own majority opinion, in his private cell |
| 13:49:01 | Torne | and so objects to the fact that gerrit doesn't have categories or tags or affected-players |
| 13:49:15 | Torne | because then he won't be able to discover patches he's interested in |
| 13:49:17 | [Saint] | Torne: Zagor: Right, yeah. I get you know. I thought you were addressing the many "I want the menus ordered thusly/why is foo/bar/baz in the menu? they're useless" minions. |
| 13:49:19 | Torne | old, dead ones |
| 13:49:31 | [Saint] | *s/you know/you now/ |
| 13:49:39 | Torne | [Saint]: no, we're more talking about fixing the fact that there are 200 music players on the android market and they all play like crap ;) |
| 13:49:44 | sideral | Torne: Thanks for rephrasing it that way. That's largely accurate |
| 13:50:00 | Torne | people want 200 different UIs but they don't want gapless to be badly implemented or to have no replaygain or to not support some codecs :) |
| 13:50:22 | Torne | the android media framework is not sufficient to make a good music player :) |
| 13:50:37 | Torne | so maybe we can fill that gap pretty well. |
| 13:50:44 | Torne | and maybe for other OSes as well. |
| 13:51:12 | GodEater_ | Torne: a new UI would be cool - esp. if we can use it to pull music from google music (or other cloud source of your choice) but pump the bits through our playback enginer. |
| 13:51:12 | Torne | sideral: right. so the disagreement here is kinda twofold: I don't think patches in FS actually *are* discoverable, and I also don't think that that's useful very much |
| 13:51:38 | Torne | the majority of the metadata on the majority of FS# entries I am watching is either missing or bullshit |
| 13:51:44 | Torne | wrong categories, wrong players, etc |
| 13:51:52 | sideral | Torne: then go fix it :) |
| 13:51:56 | Torne | part of that is FS's fault (not being able to select multiple players) |
| 13:52:03 | GodEater_ | sideral: he is - by ditching FS |
| 13:52:04 | Torne | so some of those things *can't* easily be fixed |
| 13:52:13 | Torne | well no, i'm not fixing it |
| 13:52:18 | sideral | GodEater: :) |
| 13:52:23 | * | GodEater_ was being flippant |
| 13:52:27 | Torne | I am looking at what it would take to fix it, versus how much use it would be even if it was fixed, and deciding it's not worth fixing |
| 13:52:38 | Torne | even if that data was perfect all the time, I still would have very little use for it |
| 13:52:50 | Torne | Given that in reality it will be crappy a lot of the time *even if* the tool handles it better, it's even less useful |
| 13:53:07 | sideral | Torne: Aren't you interested in bugs/patches related to stuff you've done, bookmarks, say? |
| 13:53:18 | Torne | sideral: yes |
| 13:53:23 | Torne | I can find those by searching fot eh word "bookmark" |
| 13:53:29 | Torne | or by looking for changes to apps/bookmark.c |
| 13:53:38 | Torne | and that will give me about a 95% hit rate with no metadata required |
| 13:53:38 | Torne | :) |
| 13:54:04 | sideral | I like that the corresponding query for the Database category on FS has 100% accuracy |
| 13:54:14 | Torne | If an issue isn't found by that simple search then it's probably also not categorised correctly either |
| 13:54:19 | sideral | I care about that data :) |
| 13:54:29 | gevaerts | sideral: does it really? |
| 13:54:33 | gevaerts | I somehow doubt that |
| 13:54:39 | Torne | have you tried finding all the database related patches by searching for the word database, and for patches that touch tagcache.c? |
| 13:54:45 | Torne | because i bet that works just as well |
| 13:54:45 | sideral | gevaerts: Yes. I went through the history and fixed it :) |
| 13:54:56 | sideral | Torne: yes |
| 13:54:57 | Torne | (note: you can't actually do the latter in flyspray) |
| 13:55:06 | Torne | so, your yes is a lie. |
| 13:55:21 | Torne | because there's basically no way tod o that currently :) |
| 13:55:29 | Torne | unless you have a local copy of every flyspray attachment ;) |
| 13:55:39 | sideral | Torne: Google did that for me ;) |
| 13:55:47 | Torne | Oh, duh |
| 13:55:51 | Torne | pardon me :) |
| 13:56:04 | Torne | yah, google doesn't really index the patches but it indexes the diffstats of them |
| 13:56:07 | Torne | so that works. |
| 13:56:24 | Torne | ok, so how was that compared to things that were *already* tagged database before you changed them? |
| 13:56:39 | Torne | how many things didn't come up on those searches that you subsequently found by another method that was more work? |
| 13:56:51 | Torne | becqause unless that number is large you are proving my point :) |
| 13:56:58 | sideral | I would have missed about 20 % either way (only looking at category, or only looking at search results) |
| 13:57:19 | sideral | because of miscategorization / misspellings / alternate spellings |
| 13:57:19 | Torne | ok, so i wouldnt' consider that worth it |
| 13:57:30 | Torne | 80% of them is enough work to be getting on with kthx :) |
| 13:57:42 | * | sideral happily disagrees with Torne again :) |
| 13:57:44 | * | Torne goes for luuuunch |
| 13:57:58 | sideral | Enjoy! |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:24 | * | sideral is sad to see that FS-based retrospection doesn't work for you guys |
| 14:01:30 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:01:48 | B4gder | sideral: I lack your proposal on how we should improve the patch situation, you seem to be mostly happy with it as it is |
| 14:02:14 | [Saint] | I think it does, people have looked at FS currently, and thought"in retrospect...this system sucks balls" ;) |
| 14:02:47 | [Saint] | "I wish we could do it better...oh, wait, we can" |
| 14:03:01 | sideral | B4gder: My proposal is to keep FS alive for patch hosting, and to have try the patch-review system in parallel, as it isn't even trying to be a replacement for an issue tracker |
| 14:03:17 | | Join bluefoxx [0] (fuzzylomba@70.71.25.68) |
| 14:03:20 | B4gder | sideral: with only you left caring about FS? |
| 14:03:40 | B4gder | the net effect will be that FS is for storing old cruft |
| 14:03:53 | sideral | B4gder: me and those who'd like to host/discuss a patch that isn't ready for commit |
| 14:04:10 | gevaerts | Of course the patch review system isn't trying to be an issue tracker. Patches are not issues! |
| 14:04:11 | B4gder | and then you need to do it again when submitted to gerrit? |
| 14:04:32 | sideral | gevaerts: Full ack. So why replace one with the other? |
| 14:04:41 | gevaerts | sideral: why can't gerrit be used for a patch that isn't ready to commit? |
| 14:04:42 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 14:05:00 | gevaerts | sideral: we *have* a tracker for issues, a.k.a. bugs, and that's not going to go away |
| 14:05:05 | [Saint] | I don't think *anyone* has mentioned dropping FS for bug reports, have they? |
| 14:05:13 | sideral | gevaerts: I don't know, that's what was repeatedly said in this conversation by others |
| 14:05:14 | [Saint] | ah, yes...what gevaerts said. |
| 14:05:53 | [Saint] | sideral: No, it hasn't. It's been encouraged to do so. |
| 14:05:55 | B4gder | sideral: we have agreed to keep FS for bugs, not patches |
| 14:06:04 | sideral | gevaerts: I do understand that. But undecided patches that need more work are issues as well, and are worth archiving and making queriable |
| 14:06:08 | B4gder | but sure, a bug report could include a patch |
| 14:06:11 | | Join evilnick [0] (~evilnick@rockbox/staff/evilnick) |
| 14:06:12 | [Saint] | so that people get a chance to comment earlier in <feature X>'s development. |
| 14:06:13 | gevaerts | why are they issues? |
| 14:06:36 | Zagor | sideral: please don't use the word "issues". we have patches, and we have bug reports. that's all. |
| 14:06:41 | B4gder | and why do we need FS to discuss issues? why not just discuss on the dev list? |
| 14:07:16 | * | B4gder pulls out his mail argument again |
| 14:07:25 | sideral | Zagor: FS is an issue tracker. It archives conversations about [whatever] in a structured and queriable way. Bugs benefit from this structure, as do proposed changes (patches) |
| 14:07:50 | GodEater_ | sideral: it's absolutely not structured discussion - there's no threading! |
| 14:07:56 | Zagor | sideral: FS is what we make it. we use it for bug reports and patches. in the future only for bug reports. |
| 14:08:00 | GodEater_ | mail is infinitely preferable to that |
| 14:08:26 | Zagor | introducing the term "issues" only adds confusion |
| 14:08:29 | sideral | Zagor: I don't see a counterargument to mine |
| 14:08:58 | B4gder | sideral: almost nobody thinks the current patch situation on FS is good |
| 14:09:02 | sideral | GodEater: Mailing-list archives aren't queriable like that. There's a reason why people have invented issue trackers. |
| 14:09:11 | B4gder | and we think the work flow needs to change to fix this |
| 14:09:13 | Zagor | ahhrg |
| 14:09:31 | GodEater_ | sideral: aren't queryable like what? |
| 14:09:34 | sideral | Zagor: Sorry :) |
| 14:09:35 | Zagor | "Flyspray is an uncomplicated, web-based bug tracking system" |
| 14:09:42 | Zagor | http://flyspray.org/ |
| 14:10:08 | Zagor | it's designed to be a bug tracker. not a patch manager. |
| 14:10:09 | sideral | GodEater: Like a bug tracker. Ever seen that huge search mask? |
| 14:10:10 | | Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 14:10:26 | GodEater_ | I also fail to see why someone working on a patch cannot submit it to gerrit whatever state it's in? |
| 14:10:27 | B4gder | if flyspray had (much) better mail integration, it could've worked better at this |
| 14:10:29 | pamaury | Imo, the current problem of FS for patches is that two distincts things are getting merged: 1) the technical discussion about the patch itself 2) the non-technical discussion about the feature itself |
| 14:11:02 | GodEater_ | sideral: I really have no idea what you're referring to |
| 14:11:07 | B4gder | pamaury: and that assumes it even attracts the interested people in the first place |
| 14:11:58 | sideral | I'm not saying FS cannot be improved upon. But I fail to see what's hard to understand about me liking to sift through old / proposed stuff with a structured query? |
| 14:12:01 | Zagor | I have long since given up following patches on flyspray. I only look at things raised in the mailing list. I don't think I am alone in this. |
| 14:12:22 | Zagor | sideral: it's only structured after you've manually gone through and fixed it |
| 14:12:42 | [Saint] | sideral: You'll still be able to, no? it'll still be there. |
| 14:12:47 | Zagor | are you volunteering for the post of Flyspray janitor? :) |
| 14:12:54 | B4gder | and the way we work with patches in FS allows patches to sit and rot too much |
| 14:13:07 | sideral | Saint: Not for new patches once we close FS for patches |
| 14:13:33 | [Saint] | right, but you specifically said *old* stuff. |
| 14:13:36 | Zagor | that's because we don't want patches to rot in the future. we want them to be discussed, refined and committed or rejected. |
| 14:13:38 | [Saint] | this won't change that. |
| 14:13:51 | sideral | And the other point I wanted to make: I like that there's one place to go for patches, and not many. |
| 14:14:09 | Zagor | sideral: careful. that's an argument for closing FS :-) |
| 14:14:20 | [Saint] | there still will be only one place to go for patches. close FS, use gerrit. ;) |
| 14:15:03 | sideral | Zagor: At least I can structure it. That seems to be impossible with gerrit |
| 14:15:29 | Zagor | that's because ideally there will be nothing to structure. patches are temporary works in progress. not mantle pieces. |
| 14:16:05 | Zagor | 334 open patches is an embarrassment and a failure |
| 14:16:20 | [Saint] | it certainly *looks* that way. |
| 14:16:29 | sideral | Zagor: I think quickly rejecting stuff just because no one does the last 10 % (config, docs) right now is a bad idea |
| 14:16:48 | sideral | Zagor: I disagree. It's a treasure |
| 14:16:57 | kugel | there's two places for patches. we still accept them on the ML |
| 14:17:12 | Zagor | sideral: why would we not reject it? it can't go in. we'll accept it as soon as it's done. |
| 14:17:19 | kugel | Zagor: it was 400 at the devcon |
| 14:17:24 | Zagor | everything is rejected until it is committed |
| 14:17:32 | kugel | I closed like 20 pre-2008 patches |
| 14:17:47 | sideral | Zagor: because it might be useful to other people for their private use, as are so many of the existing patches in FS |
| 14:17:59 | Zagor | flyspray is not the world's work-in-progress directory |
| 14:18:01 | sideral | to it's worth keeping or even forward porting from time to time |
| 14:18:02 | gevaerts | Then those people can host them! |
| 14:18:24 | sideral | gevaerts: And them being discoverable in a central place is a big plus too |
| 14:18:35 | kugel | it's not |
| 14:18:51 | kugel | it encourages "dumping and forgetting" |
| 14:18:52 | n1s | sideral: making that easy makes it less likely people will finish them imo |
| 14:19:09 | gevaerts | I'm not saying they all have to host this stuff separately. As far as I can see rockbox-patches.org is available |
| 14:19:14 | pamaury | sideral: if someone bothered to do the 90% other, doing the last 10% shouldn't be too hard; config and docs *are* important |
| 14:19:42 | sideral | pamaury: You know about that 80–20 rule, don't you? :) |
| 14:20:18 | sideral | gevaerts: I only see Rockbox removing existing support for central patch hosting, and I don't like that |
| 14:20:37 | kugel | and I like that |
| 14:20:50 | gevaerts | Most of us see that as a huge step forwards |
| 14:20:52 | sideral | kugel: And I don't. :) |
| 14:20:59 | kugel | "central patch hosting" sounds nicer that what it actually is |
| 14:21:13 | | Join GeekShadow [0] (~Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) |
| 14:21:14 | pamaury | then than an even stronger argument against your example; if you let the hardest 20% part to other people just because you don't want to do it, what's the point ? |
| 14:21:52 | sideral | pamaury: The point is that apparently many people find patches useful despite their lack of polish |
| 14:22:05 | pamaury | if it's polish, it's not hard |
| 14:22:10 | * | evilnick takes issue with "many" there |
| 14:22:21 | sideral | pamaury: Yes it is. |
| 14:22:36 | GodEater_ | polish is supposed to be a pretty hard language to learn actually |
| 14:22:47 | sideral | evilnick: It wasn't me who postulated that people with patched builds frequently are a problem |
| 14:22:47 | pamaury | ^^ |
| 14:23:41 | evilnick | sideral: I'm just thinking that as a % of the users, the ones running patched builds would be pretty small |
| 14:24:10 | sideral | evilnick: Then why is it a problem to keep our repo of patches alive? |
| 14:24:31 | GodEater_ | because they're not OURS |
| 14:24:33 | sideral | If it's not causing any problem? :^) |
| 14:24:36 | GodEater_ | they're someone elses |
| 14:25:07 | kugel | sideral: it's causing problems |
| 14:25:24 | * | evilnick ducks back out of the discussion :) |
| 14:25:33 | kugel | the most apparent one is that patches sit there instead of being worked on and pushed into svn |
| 14:26:01 | [Saint] | I can, and do, host my patches elsewhere...as, I know they won't get commited. the ones I *have* put in to be commited (and have been committed) I put on FS. I don't see why it's a problem to ask people to host their shit in their own backyard so to speak. |
| 14:26:35 | sideral | kugel: I sincerely hope that patch review will reduce the number of patches that aren't completed (although I somehow doubt it). But if that's the case, there won't be as much rot in FS any more, no? |
| 14:27:06 | sideral | Saint: Which of my arguments for hosting them centrally didn't make any sense? |
| 14:27:11 | kugel | we still don't want to host patches which aren't going into svn |
| 14:27:40 | kugel | as they're obviously not meant for svn, we shouldn't be concerned or even associated with them |
| 14:28:03 | sideral | we aren't, if they're not commited |
| 14:28:28 | sideral | we expressly deny support for patched builds |
| 14:28:30 | kugel | we are since they are on rockbox.org, in the same places where bug reports legitimately go to |
| 14:30:00 | sideral | Alright guys, I think all arguments have been exchanged and we're running in circles now. |
| 14:30:25 | sideral | Thanks to everyone who took the time to chime in and explain their view! |
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| 16:08:23 | Rob2222 | Is USB-mode on Sansa AMS v2 models still disabled? |
| 16:08:23 | | Join swilde [0] (~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org) |
| 16:20:13 | [Saint] | Yes |
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| 17:04:52 | | Join cpu98 [0] (de6c422f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.222.108.66.47) |
| 17:05:11 | cpu98 | http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/rockbox2.png/ |
| 17:05:11 | cpu98 | great news for ipod video |
| 17:05:48 | Torne | cpu98: hm? |
| 17:06:05 | cpu98 | i'm working on a driver |
| 17:07:46 | JdGordon | sideral: which of my old patches are you runnning? |
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| 17:09:11 | * | gevaerts had similar wonderings :) |
| 17:09:11 | | Quit GeekShadow (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 17:09:19 | gevaerts | I bet he's running the loopback image patch |
| 17:09:34 | | Join GeekShad0w [0] (~Antoine@ree79-1-78-237-225-34.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 17:09:37 | Zagor | cpu98: looks great! |
| 17:10:37 | | Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 17:10:41 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:11:46 | n1s | gevaerts: that is such an awesome feature that you should finish it! |
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| 17:37:41 | saratoga | cpu98: (for the logs) you need to do those tests with a pair of headphones or at least a resistor attached |
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| 18:08:10 | | Join mrkiko [0] (~mrkiko@host146-18-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 18:08:45 | mrkiko | Hi all!!! :D:D:D A simple question - is iPod nano 3g supported ? I think it's not, but I'm not certain due to the website formatting |
| 18:09:39 | | Quit petur (Quit: *plop*) |
| 18:09:54 | [Saint] | No, it isn't. And, what formatting? rockbox.org clearly shows ports in three states. supported, unstable, and unsupported. |
| 18:10:29 | mrkiko | [Saint]: thank you! |
| 18:11:06 | [Saint] | whoops, I messed that up. Stable, unstale, and unsupported. |
| 18:11:19 | mrkiko | I looked in the wiki |
| 18:11:20 | [Saint] | regardless, the Nano3G isn't in any of the categories. |
| 18:11:30 | [Saint] | *unstable |
| 18:12:06 | mrkiko | [Saint]: oh ... I tried using it with the standard firmware - but still, it's one of the less accessible DAPs :D |
| 18:12:48 | [Saint] | hahahah! let's try again. *ahem* Stable, Unstable, and Unusable. |
| 18:12:57 | * | [Saint] is messing up his terminology tonight. |
| 18:16:43 | mrkiko | [Saint]: I would like a DAP with lots of space (even an hdd one), supported by rockbox, again in production. :D:D:D |
| 18:16:57 | [Saint] | Get a Classic then. |
| 18:16:59 | mrkiko | is there one ? i was an h3xx user |
| 18:17:03 | mrkiko | ok |
| 18:18:02 | [Saint] | the Classic is the only DAP that meets your requirements. (depending on what "lots of space" actually means) |
| 18:19:03 | gevaerts | Except it's not actually supported decently by rockbox yet |
| 18:19:25 | [Saint] | It works well enough for everyday use. |
| 18:19:39 | [Saint] | but, there are gaps that need filling, certainly. |
| 18:21:16 | | Part mrkiko |
| 18:29:13 | * | [Saint] wonders why Unusable ports isn't formatted thusly on the main page: http://pastebin.com/mGZaY9Eu |
| 18:29:35 | [Saint] | the current formatting either is ordered in some way I don't see a pattern in, or, not at all. |
| 18:30:31 | [Saint] | the other categories appear to be ordered alphabetically by manufacturer. |
| 18:31:10 | kugel | to make clear they second class citizen :) |
| 18:31:32 | gevaerts | kugel: *third*! |
| 18:31:45 | | Quit JesusChrysler (Quit: JesusChrysler) |
| 18:32:44 | kugel | gevaerts: correct, since unstable ports are links while stables are not! |
| 18:33:25 | [Saint] | that was going to be my second point re: formatting ;) |
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| 18:45:32 | TioBorracho | hi! |
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| 18:54:12 | TioBorracho | I hope someone can help me |
| 18:54:21 | TioBorracho | I have an old ipod nan 1gn 2 GB |
| 18:54:23 | TioBorracho | rockboxed |
| 18:54:29 | TioBorracho | I worked fine for a long time |
| 18:54:42 | TioBorracho | but suddenly it couldn 't read the partition |
| 18:55:33 | TioBorracho | I booted in disk mode, checked with badblocks and found several bad blocks in the data partition. It had bad blocks before data section so I couldn't reformat. I repartitioned it skiping some sectors and everythins was ok |
| 18:55:34 | TioBorracho | almost |
| 18:55:47 | TioBorracho | It boots and works ok while attached to the PC or a charger |
| 18:56:08 | TioBorracho | but If i start it with no connection it just shows the apple screen and turns off immediately |
| 18:56:13 | TioBorracho | any ideas? |
| 19:00 |
| 19:03:08 | Torne | The space before the data partition is the firmware partition.. |
| 19:07:22 | TioBorracho | I mean |
| 19:07:29 | TioBorracho | the firmware partition is present |
| 19:07:46 | TioBorracho | If I run badblocks on that partition I get no errors |
| 19:08:02 | TioBorracho | but if I try to formt the second partition I get this error from mkfs |
| 19:08:26 | TioBorracho | mkfs.vfat: bad blocks before data-area: cannot make fs |
| 19:09:13 | Torne | it sounds like you may have more bad blocks, anyway :) |
| 19:09:28 | Torne | badblocks is not a very good test, especially on flash devices, because it doesn't actually write by default |
| 19:09:40 | Torne | badblocks -w would be better but will destroy all the data |
| 19:09:43 | Torne | including the firmware partition |
| 19:12:38 | TioBorracho | no prob with that |
| 19:12:45 | TioBorracho | data is already f*cked up |
| 19:13:57 | TioBorracho | what is strange to me is that while plugged it starts ok |
| 19:14:08 | TioBorracho | but as soon as I unplug it it shuts down |
| 19:14:28 | TioBorracho | could it be related to badblocks or something else? |
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| 21:41:13 | Xerrao | !sync |
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| 21:41:53 | bluebrother | JdGordon: the bot wasn't missing this morning −− I forgot making it act on ACTION events as well. Should be fixed now :) |
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| 22:39:19 | bluebrother | AlexP: ping |
| 22:39:27 | AlexP | yo |
| 22:39:57 | bluebrother | I've pushed a script to spellcheck the manual to gerrit (guess that's the first thing on gerrit intended to go in at some point ;-) |
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| 22:40:03 | bluebrother | wanna have a look? |
| 22:40:22 | AlexP | heh, sure :) |
| 22:40:36 | sideral | pamaury: Have you tested your AMSv2 USB drivers with multiple different hosts? |
| 22:40:43 | bluebrother | I've added you as reviewer :) |
| 22:40:59 | bluebrother | now to figure how to push an updated patch −− that one has whitespace errors |
| 22:42:02 | bluebrother | heh, that was easy :) |
| 22:42:03 | | Part toffe82 |
| 22:43:07 | AlexP | Now I need to work out how to grab it :) |
| 22:44:15 | bluebrother | hmm. I've added an inline comment but it shows up as draft. Is there any button to make that final I haven't found yet? |
| 22:44:57 | gevaerts | bluebrother: yes, the review buttons |
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| 22:45:47 | n1s | the gerrit interface isnt' beginner friendly it seems |
| 22:45:53 | bluebrother | ah. |
| 22:46:20 | bluebrother | the interface is a bit you-need-to-get-used-to |
| 22:47:02 | n1s | yeah i suppose |
| 22:47:09 | | Quit keyb_gr (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:47:34 | n1s | the view all buttons are dangerous too :) |
| 22:47:45 | bluebrother | since we decided to move to git it would be a good idea for people to wrap commit messages at column 80 or so |
| 22:47:52 | n1s | um diff all |
| 22:48:01 | Bagder | bluebrother: 72 I'd say |
| 22:48:15 | bluebrother | Bagder: fair enough. |
| 22:48:20 | gevaerts | n1s: perfectly harmless here :) |
| 22:48:22 | Bagder | so "git log" still looks fine in 80 column terminals |
| 22:48:42 | n1s | gevaerts: :) |
| 22:48:43 | Bagder | and the first line should preferably be < ~55 or so |
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| 23:00 |
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| 23:04:26 | pamaury | sideral: no, I only have my computer |
| 23:05:16 | sideral | pamaury: perhaps I should rather send you a couple of PCs? :) |
| 23:06:14 | | Quit GeekShad0w (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:06:58 | pamaury | yeah, perhaps I should find another host to test it |
| 23:20:23 | sideral | pamaury: I think that would be the logical next step |
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| 23:46:23 | * | sideral is very fond of his new Clip+ keymap |
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| 23:48:06 | sideral | Finally a sensible place for the soft lock, a hotkey, a consistent way to toggle between menu and WPS, and keymap consistency between WPS and FM radio screen :) |
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| 23:48:37 | | Quit krazykit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 23:51:08 | bertrik | sideral, what, where? |
| 23:51:25 | sideral | bertrik: Clip+ |
| 23:51:37 | | Quit fs-bluebot (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:52:03 | sideral | in my private tree :) |
| 23:52:27 | | Join fs-bluebot [0] (~fs-bluebo@g226069119.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 23:52:29 | sideral | anything that caught your eye? |
| 23:52:35 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/123 Player: one-touch volume (feature, closed) |
| 23:52:54 | bluebrother | urgh, wrong response target. |
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| 23:53:07 | * | bluebrother needs to fix that. |
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| 23:53:56 | bertrik | I wouldn't mind a more sensible clip+ keymap |
| 23:55:21 | sideral | bertrik: I hear changing it in SVN involves politics, and I've had enough of that for today. :) But I'd be very open to your input! |
| 23:56:44 | bertrik | sideral, can I get your keymap somehow? |
| 23:56:49 | sideral | Would you like me to describe my rationale, or rather have a look at the code directly? |
| 23:57:23 | bertrik | please describe it first |
| 23:58:07 | sideral | About the code: I thought of uploading it to FS #11605 <http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11605> as an alternative solution, or opening a new task for it |
| 23:58:07 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11605 Clip+ new keymap (patches, unconfirmed) |
| 23:58:29 | sideral | Just a sec, I'll outline it for you |
| 23:58:48 | bertrik | I couldn't care less about the quickscreen, but would like an easy go-to-WPS key (e.g. HOME for switching to the WPS and back), and something like long-HOME for lock |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).