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#rockbox log for 2011-07-20

00:03:10 Quit utanapischti (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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00:27:50Strife1989Anyone feel like checking a Vorbis file and seeing if it loads slowly for them?
00:28:43Strife1989On my iPod Video, using r30169, it takes a good 9 seconds to start playback on any track in the album.
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00:31:50 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:35:20 Quit drezon (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish)
00:36:18 Quit hskf (Quit: Bye)
00:43:57PoodlemastahJust tried it on 30172 on my iPod classic, started in the normal 2-3 sec..
00:44:33*Strife1989 nukes his settings file and retries.
00:45:48 Quit edhelas (Quit: MOVIM - Le réseau social libre de demain -
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00:49:59saratogaembedded album art can make loading vorbis files messy
00:50:46Strife19896 seconds with default settings.
00:52:04 Join L-Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@
00:54:33L-Strife89Any way to strip embedded AA in bulk?
00:54:52 Quit factor (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:55:37kugelsaratoga: why?
00:55:51saratogabecause Tremor is kind of stupid about it
00:56:01saratogaand its really, really hard to fix
00:56:01 Quit Strife1989 (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
00:56:51saratogait basically encodes the album art into about a million Ogg pages which have to be malloced and then parsed and then skipped before you can actually get to the audio
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01:01:14*L-Strife89 somehow thought that Rockbox would favor external AA over embedded.
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01:13:52 Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.55=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
01:14:15kugelsaratoga: IIRC someone said it's base64 encoded in vorbis comments?
01:15:17kugelbut I also remember to have read that the FLAC style is also supported (which is like mp3 and aac, a plain dump of the image))
01:17:14kugelRaaAoA doesn't work on 1.6 (anymore)
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01:17:29kugelnot in the emulator at least
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01:25:09kugelbluebroth3r: there's a problem with headphone detection
01:25:37rasherThat's 3.6% of devices
01:27:04 Quit GeekShadow (Quit: The cake is a lie !)
01:29:06*kugel couldn't care less about 1.6
01:29:19kugelespecially since we're not on the market
01:31:33 Quit simonlnu (Quit: .)
01:32:59saratoga2.0 or above sounds reasonable
01:33:18kugelI don't know why it's crashing, the same mechanism works on 2.1
01:33:50saratogahard to imagine many people interested in rockbox with old devices won't have hacked them with something newer by now
01:33:59saratogafirmware hacking seems to be popular with our users
01:41:28kugelthe emulator dies as soon as I try to play music
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01:44:58CIA-14New commit by kugel (r30173): Android: Change headphone detection to call into native. ...
01:45:52 Join Aevum [0] (
01:46:01 Part Aevum ("Saliendo")
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01:47:38CIA-14r30173 build result: All green
01:47:43Aevumquestion about the clip plus. this is the place to ask ?
01:48:13scorcheonly if it is about rockbox ;)
01:48:25Aevumremind me to send you a lollypop
01:48:54 Quit GeekShadow (Client Quit)
01:49:27Aevumanyways. i read somewhere that the main issue with AAC support on the clip plataform was that the onboard memory is insufficient to run proper aac decoding
01:49:53Aevumis that still the case ?
01:51:58Aevumim awake that you're not paid or obliged to answer. but i would even appriciate a "i dont know"
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01:52:53scorchewell, i dont know, but according to the majorchanges wiki page, there is "2011-04-18: Major rework of m4a parser to reduce memory consumption and enhance playability on low memory targets"
01:53:22Aevumthen i guess im going to have to rockbox it and try
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01:55:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:56:18saratogaAevum: there was never an issue with AAC decoding on the Clip+
01:56:35 Quit amiconn[h] (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
01:56:40Aevumi guess the issue was with the original cliop
01:56:55saratogadifferent player
01:59:56Aevumi thought it was the same plataform with a couple of changes to accomodate the microSD slot
02:00:18 Quit amiconn_nq (Quit: HydraIRC -> <- Chicks dig it)
02:00:56Aevumthe installer is quite sweet
02:01:03Aevumrockbox has come a long way
02:09:17Aevumthats weird
02:09:22Aevumi plug it in to the usb
02:09:27Aevumdosnt show up as drive
02:09:49wodzAevum: I guess you didn't bothered to read manual...
02:10:16Aevum3.1.4 : putting music on the player
02:12:37wodzwow, *that* should be in manual - on AMSv2 usb support in rb is disabled due to stability issues. You have to use OF to copy files into player
02:12:48saratogaits in the manual
02:13:38Aevummaybe it is and im an idiot
02:13:57Aevumits quite a real posibility at this moment
02:15:29wodzsaratoga: From what I see manual says only that OF firmware will be booted if it is powered by USB connection.
02:16:44Aevumor if you hold left while starting the device
02:17:29saratogaperhaps its disabled on the fuzev2 manual, let me grep
02:18:09Aevumwell, thanks for the info. now i know i have to boot OF to load music in to it
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02:23:31saratogaseems sideral removed that line a couple months ago, probably by mistake
02:23:33saratogai'll put it back
02:24:25Aevumthe line that states you cant load music with RB ?
02:26:21Aevumthank you
02:27:20CIA-14New commit by saratoga (r30174): Add back mention that rockbox will boot into the OF when powered by USB because the AMSv2 devices don't support USB yet. This used to be there but ...
02:29:33 Quit Rob2222 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
02:30:37CIA-14r30174 build result: All green
02:30:51saratogai could put a mention of that in the AMSv2 install section, but it seems like something that would get overlooked pretty easily
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02:35:55saratogai guess i could make a HAVE_ROCKBOX_USB option
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02:44:23alouettehey ^^
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03:07:10JdGordonwho was fiddling with the irc viewer yesterday?
03:09:19mc2739it was me
03:09:26JdGordoni tihnk you made it worse
03:09:46JdGordonchrome shows the html for the link
03:10:04mc2739yeah, same on firefox
03:10:26JdGordonif they cant be clickable can they just be plain text?
03:10:35JdGordonNew commit by 03alex (r30169): Commit <a target="_blank" href="">FS #12188a> - Fix perl scripts that used Switch by Sean Bartell. ... <- pretty silly
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03:26:58CIA-14New commit by mc2739 (r30175): Revert r30153 and r30154 since links now display as html
03:28:26 Quit kadoban_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:30:31CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30176): Remove to top/bottom quickscreen defaults. ...
03:33:11CIA-14r30176 build result: All green
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03:53:24[Saint]Aw man....I actually liked having the file view settings on the quickscreen.
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03:53:39JdGordonyou can put it there easily
03:54:16[Saint]I understand it causes problems for those that didn't rtfm, though. But, that's their problem ;)
03:55:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:03:20*Strife89 uses QS up and down for Brightness control
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05:03:05JdGordonerr... did i bugger up that commit? the defaults were correct in the sim but apparently i get dirfilter on top and bottom in my mini2g now?
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05:47:47*[Saint] goes through the settings and is reminded how badly he desires to unify the time relevant selections in the settings so that all offer a unified set of choices.
05:48:13[Saint]1,2,3,4...etc. and 0,5,10,15...etc. is a horrible mix.
05:50:43hskfHay guys
05:50:43hskfHey hahaha
05:50:55 Join Transformer [0] (
05:51:32hskfI want to help with the android do I get started? I don't see it on the builds page
05:52:00[Saint]that's because its currently "unusable".
05:52:11[Saint]it won't be built automatically until it reaches unstable.
05:52:31 Part Transformer
05:53:10[Saint]If you want to help, set up a development environment, checkout the source, and compile it yourself.
05:53:31[Saint]then look for things that are within your ability to improve upon.
05:55:12hskfDeal. Is it on the same SVN repo as the others?
05:55:24***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:55:26hskfOr is that only for pushing builds
05:57:23[Saint]The svn repo contains the source for all ports, yes.
05:58:43[Saint]You'll need the a development environment (NOT CygWin), the Android S/NDK, and a JDK to compile RaaA.
05:59:08[Saint]*S/need the a/need a/
06:00:11hskfOk. Would this be written in C like all the others, or did it get completely rewritten is java?
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06:00:29[Saint]Bits of both.
06:01:38hskfI have eclipse set up with the sdk, so I'll get the other stuff, dl the source, and get it going
06:02:03hskfI've been using it on my Nexus S for a while, obviously not ready yet though
06:02:14hskfDo you know who else is working on itm
06:02:35[Saint]Anyone thats interested in it.
06:04:16[Saint]kugel and bluebrother are probably the most active commiters for the RaaA port at this stage.
06:06:06hskfK cool, just looking for someone to ask if I really run into something
06:06:19hskfI guess it'd all be relatively the same thoug
06:08:15hskfAlright man, thanks for the start. I'll check it out this weekend and help anyway I can
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06:58:09 Quit ReimuHakurei (Quit: If I use this, I will disappear, and Shana-tan will remain...)
06:58:29pixelmasaratoga: you put the line back for all Sansas - and removed the "how to boot into the OF" if I see correctly
07:02:44pixelmaand Clipv2, Fuzev2, Clip+ will have one sentence twice :\
07:04:05pixelmaand also doesn't explain the problem at all
07:05:06pixelmabesides the line was still there for these three targets
07:06:16pixelmae.g. </monologue>
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07:13:22*pixelma doesn't have time to fix or revert it now and doesn't like these commits without checking at all
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07:55:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:26:15[Saint]JdGordon: jsyk, with clean svn head you patch throws the warning "/home/saint-ubuntu/Rockbox/rockbox/apps/playlist_catalog.c: In function ‘display_playlists’:
08:26:15[Saint]/home/saint-ubuntu/Rockbox/rockbox/apps/playlist_catalog.c:149: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘bookmark_autoload’"
08:26:32[Saint]*s/your patch/your playlist handling patch/
08:27:07*JdGordon knows
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08:31:26snooffy_hi guys, anybody here who could help me to unbrick a sansa fuze1?
08:31:40snooffy_I've done
08:31:56snooffy_until "use recovery mode"
08:32:07snooffy_and now i have no idea what to do next
08:33:07snooffy_i can see a 1gb device in /dev/sdf but cannot mount it or anything and fdisk says this about the partition
08:33:08snooffy_Disk /dev/sdf: 1027 MB, 1027342336 bytes
08:33:09snooffy_32 heads, 62 sectors/track, 1011 cylinders
08:33:09DBUGEnqueued KICK snooffy_
08:33:09snooffy_Units = cylinders of 1984 * 512 = 1015808 bytes
08:33:09snooffy_Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
08:33:09***Alert Mode level 1
08:33:09DBUGEnqueued KICK snooffy
08:33:09snooffy_I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
08:33:12snooffy_Disk identifier: 0xffffffff
08:33:14snooffy_Disk /dev/sdf doesn't contain a valid partition table
08:33:44snooffy_can anybody help me with it?
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08:42:04wodzsnooffy: to me instructions are very clear - You see hidden partition than dd image onto it
08:42:18snooffy_thats what i did
08:42:38snooffy_but what now?
08:43:10***Alert Mode OFF
08:43:22wodzreboot I guess
08:43:25snooffy_well.. what i did i dd'd there fuzea.bin
08:44:13snooffy_wodz: I'm sorry for being such a noob in this field... how do I reboot it?
08:44:58wodzI'am not Sansa guy, but I would try to unplug USB cable
08:45:44snooffy_yep.. that's what i did as well.. but still have a blank screen
08:45:57snooffy_it doesnt fire up
08:46:12wodzthan you have to wait for someone more skilled in this area
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08:47:35snooffy_yep.. probably..
08:47:44snooffy_thanks for your interest anyway
08:51:34wodzIf I were You I would try to dump the content of the hidden nand part and compare with what you have just dd'ed.
08:54:53snooffy_do you mean this step ? dd if=/dev/sde of=orig_image.bin bs=512 count=$((0xF000))
08:57:10snooffy_the image i get has 30MiB the one i was trying to send in has 15MiB (I've got it from here:
08:58:35wodz~30MB size is what you should get - You told dd to dump that much :-)
09:00:38 Quit Ameshk (Remote host closed the connection)
09:01:56wodz might be of some help
09:02:42wodzthis makes me thinking - do you have fuze or fuzev2 ?
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09:09:03 Quit user890104 ()
09:09:17snooffy_i downloaded a simmilar firmware file from sansa site (a different version of it) than is on the site you gave me
09:11:39snooffy_and i get this output when dd the file in:
09:11:40snooffy_dd if=fuzea.bin of=/dev/sdf
09:11:40snooffy_30720+0 records in
09:11:40snooffy_30720+0 records out
09:11:40snooffy_15728640 bytes (16 MB) copied, 43.1101 s, 365 kB/s
09:11:56snooffy_so i gues this went ok, right?
09:12:08wodzlooks good
09:12:56 Quit webguest1234 (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
09:13:13snooffy_but nothing else happens...
09:13:36snooffy_when i unplug it, it doesn't react to any buttons etc..
09:14:22wodzthis is beyond my abilities, sorry.
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09:18:15snooffy_i wish i could get hold of the guy who's site you sent me...
09:19:46snooffy_I'll try to send him a message and see if he can help.... thanks for your time wodz
09:20:19[Saint]as far as I know, dd'ing a firmware file there is not sufficient.
09:20:38[Saint]you're actually supposed to dd an image of the original FS, which you're suppsoed to already have.
09:22:28snooffy_[Saint]: ah... where can I get that?
09:22:35[Saint]ie, someone with a *working* player needs to do this same procedure (almost), and copy the image that exists on this partition.
09:22:58[Saint](this is how I understand it, anyway)
09:23:29snooffy_you are probably right, thats wha they say on that unbricking guide perhaps...
09:24:16[Saint]I'm pretty sure there won;t be an image of this available in any of the Rockbox resources, it wouldn't be legal to redistribute it.
09:25:04[Saint]If you can get hold of another working player yourself, just basically do the same thing up to a point, but copy the image off the working player. Should work fine.
09:26:05snooffy_but i guess i need to put that "workign player" to recovery as well right?
09:26:33snooffy_guys, anybody with sansa fuze v1 who could share their FS with me? :D
09:27:25[Saint]snooffy: Yes, you would have to put the working player into recovery also to recover the firmware partition image.
09:27:52snooffy_i will have to find someone than...
09:27:58snooffy_hopefully here:D
09:28:17[Saint]I _think_ dd'ing a patched fuzea.bin (patched with Rockbox) is enough to boot Rockbox, but not the OF.
09:28:24[Saint]that's possibly your middle ground.
09:32:03snooffy_sorry for a noob question
09:32:10snooffy_but what is OF?
09:32:46[Saint]Original Firmware
09:32:53[Saint]the Sansa firmware.
09:33:09[Saint]fs-bluebot: .explain OF
09:33:10fs-bluebotOF: Shortcut for Original Firmware
09:33:26snooffy_thats what i thought..
09:33:32snooffy_so i patched one
09:33:48snooffy_dding right now..
09:34:36snooffy_ok done, nothig happend again...
09:35:21[Saint]after unmounting and cycling the power button?
09:36:54snooffy_sorry, but what do you mean cycling the pwr button~?
09:36:59snooffy_hold on
09:37:02snooffy_it powerd
09:37:10snooffy_boot loader USB mode
09:38:20snooffy_Ok that got me somewhere
09:38:20[Saint]that sounds very much like the Rockbox bootloader, a good sign.
09:38:27snooffy_no blank screen anymore
09:38:30[Saint]Its still connected to the PC I take it?
09:38:38snooffy_now it is yep
09:38:51snooffy_when i have disconnected it it sayd mount 0 and panic
09:39:07snooffy_than please connect it to USB so i did
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09:40:12snooffy_[Saint]: ok what should i do now? have Bootloader USB mode and connected to PC
09:40:25[Saint]Hmmmm...I have no idea what that is. Its definitely the Rockbox bootloader, which is a good sign, but how to remedy this I'm not sure.
09:40:33[Saint]WAs it patched with a release bootloader?
09:40:59[Saint]Right, it might require an svn bootloader if you're running a current build.
09:41:28[Saint]that's just speculation, though. I seem to recall this issue being in the forums recently.
09:41:43[Saint]But I'm hazy on it and don't want to blatantly feed missinformation ;)
09:42:05snooffy_hold on, there is a difference, now the partition in fdisk -l has correct 4 GB
09:42:19snooffy_Disk /dev/sdf: 4077 MB, 4077912064 bytes
09:42:20snooffy_126 heads, 62 sectors/track, 1019 cylinders
09:42:20snooffy_Units = cylinders of 7812 * 512 = 3999744 bytes
09:42:20snooffy_Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
09:42:20snooffy_I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
09:42:21***Alert Mode level 1
09:42:21snooffy_Disk identifier: 0xe36d986e
09:42:22wodzhmm eSpeak has constant memory requirement at the level of ~420kB
09:42:23snooffy_Disk /dev/sdf doesn't contain a valid partition table
09:42:33wodzsnooffy_: use pastebin or something
09:43:26snooffy_I'll try sorry for flodding
09:43:57snooffy_if thats what you meant...
09:44:12[Saint]snooffy: Right, yeah...this has gone past my personal technical ability. When I trashed my Fuze this procedure just "automagically worked". Though the OF now no longer boots.
09:44:35[Saint]People seem to have varying rates of success with the AMS recovery, as quite little is actually known about it really.
09:44:50[Saint]Until fairly recently it was thought impossible to recover these devices.
09:45:14[Saint]s/fairly recently/about a year or so ago? soemthing like this /
09:45:55snooffy_do you think would be wise to try to create a partition?
09:46:42snooffy_i would try to use rockbox utility, but it needs a folder where the fs is mounted, but how can i mount something which doesnt have a valid parittion?
09:46:52[Saint]I really don't know, sorry. Someone more familiar with the Sansa needs to comment there. I wouldn't want to lead you astray after at least getting the thing *partially* working again ;)
09:48:49snooffy_thanks a lot, at least it get me somewhere else :D
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10:17:24snooffyok made it
10:17:31snooffy[Saint]: :D
10:18:06snooffydid created partition there using kde partition manager
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10:18:51snooffythan used rockbox utility to load the rockbox there and that was it, have the rockbox already, thanks good:D
10:19:01[Saint]snooffy: So...Rockbox works as expected now?
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10:19:24snooffy[Saint]: and wodz thank both of you
10:19:29[Saint]That's great. I might use your experiences here to update the Sansa AMS recovery wiki
10:19:47snooffy[Saint]: have to check it if it plays etc...
10:20:02[Saint]just to add an "if you can't get hold of an image of the original FW partition" option.
10:21:06snooffywhat i exactly did was I've patched the original one like this ./mkamsboot fuzea.bin bootloader-fuze.sansa patched.bin
10:22:12snooffythan ddaed the patched bin in to the device, than removed usb, it booted to "USB boot loader" and i could see 4GB in fdisk -l
10:22:34snooffyso I've created a fat32 partition, and loaded the rockbox
10:22:38snooffythanks god :D
10:23:36[Saint]That's basically exactly what I did to recovery my Fuze, but I used Windows and for whatever reason I did not have to reformat the partition. It "just worked".
10:23:53[Saint]I'm very glad for you, though. This is valuable info for others.
10:25:27snooffyi hope so:D
10:25:48snooffynow i have to go to sleep :D have a good one guys...
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12:13:52gbl08maI'm trying to design my own convttf GUI wrapper... it's not that I'm unfamiliar with the command line, but converting many fonts using purely the command line is tiring...
12:14:01wodzI am looking a bit into porting espeak to rb and I am wondering how weird would it be to port it as a codec? tts needs to load ~420kB of data into memory (dictionary, phenomes, etc.). Than it would process stream of text. What oddities may I expect with such an approach?
12:14:37gevaertswodz: it would prevent using it from the UI while playback is active
12:14:55gbl08maaren't codecs expected to play/pause, ffw/rw, etc.? a tts engine isn't supposed to do these things
12:15:25wodzgevaerts: how is that? .talk files are speex so where is the problem?
12:15:42gevaertswodz: .talk files don't use speex as a regular codc
12:16:07gevaertsThey use a special built-in version
12:17:09wodzgbl08ma: ffw/rw may be simulated by seeking in text stream passed to tts
12:18:14wodzhmm so maybe plugin as a first step is better
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12:55:17linuxstbwodz: Porting as a codec sounds interesting though - adding the text files to the playlist and using espeak as the codec. Do you think you could calculate the total play time of a text file with espeak?
12:56:19linuxstbBut I guess in terms of a UI, a user may want to see the text itself, not the WPS...
12:59:02wodzlinuxstb: some estimation of the total play time is possible probably but I don't think it would be very accurate
13:00:41linuxstbAlso, I assume you've seen the existing port of espeak which was posted to flyspray a couple of years ago?
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13:02:36wodzlinuxstb: yes, but 1) it is extremely outdated 2) It introduces some changes to the espeak code which would make it harder to sync our port to mainline 3) Is unmantained for long time
13:03:18wodz4) It dosn't work on big-endian cpus
13:03:39Tornemore sig spammers on forum:,28438.msg183046.html#msg183046
13:03:41JdGordonhas anyone updated to svn and checked the QS yet?
13:04:05TorneJdGordon: no, but thanks a lot for doing that :)
13:04:21JdGordonI'm not 100% sure it actually worked thogh :/
13:04:28JdGordonit worked in the sim but apparently not on my mini2g
13:05:11JdGordonwho beat me to the ban?!
13:07:14JdGordonhow does one get to the quickscreen in the sdl app?
13:09:54gbl08maTorne: I guess you already deleted the spam sig, or are you talking about my sig or bertrik's sig (seeing as sexton has no sig I can see)?
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13:11:18JdGordonah, ok the QS change did work, seems git svn is a bit mental with merging just commited changed back into master or something if you merge origin/master into a locla branch
13:11:40Tornethat sounds like one of the big list of things that don't work sensibly with git-svn, yes
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13:52:09JdGordon[Saint]: did you get to testing the playlist patch at all?
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14:36:22JdGordondoes anyone know how the hell the "create playlist" menu item blooody works? i cant find the code it actually calls!
14:44:15JdGordonOK, I'm getting very tempted to commit this...
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14:56:28CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
14:56:28*JdGordon gives up trying to get testers
15:03:06[Saint]Well, that's a piss poor attitude ;)
15:03:22[Saint]I know the patch is old, but recent development/testing is young :P
15:04:10[Saint]I'm trying to see what in my tree is fucking it up now, I did a clean svn head build, with nothing but that patch and it still messed up which threw me off the trail...but I needed to run make reconf.
15:04:37[Saint]So, now I find that svn head builds/works as expected I'm trying to see whats messing it up in my local changes.
15:05:42JdGordonwell, im done
15:05:51[Saint]I can't really say a hell of a lot more than "yep, it works" though really.
15:06:08[Saint]I don't know the many, wide and varied ways that people use playlists.
15:06:45AlexPJdGordon: I did!
15:07:06AlexPJdGordon: Incidentally, related to but not on this patch, the playlist/plyalist catalogue menu items
15:07:30AlexPI know they are for different things, but they are related, and it isn't terribly obvious where you should look for things
15:08:17AlexPe.g. if you load something from the catalogue (even if you know what that is - it is called "Playlists" on the main menu), you might think that you should be looking under the playlist catalogue menu and not playlist for stuff
15:09:24JdGordonAlexP: I'm open to suggestions to rename th menu items, but they shouldnt be merged
15:09:29[Saint]seems wise to just chuck the "Playlist Catalogue" entry in with the sub-entries under Playlist"
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15:09:35AlexPJdGordon: Why not?
15:09:39JdGordon"Current Playlist" and "Playlist catalog" perhaps
15:09:47AlexPYes, that'd help certainly
15:09:48JdGordonbecause they are very different functions
15:09:57[Saint]Ah, yes. That would help.
15:10:00AlexPAt the very least they need renaming
15:10:22AlexPAnd in that vein, the main menu option should maybe be Playlist Catalogue
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15:10:51[Saint]dammit, just about to push enter on a long-winded version of the same statement ;)
15:10:53JdGordonI dont know if that is required
15:11:11JdGordonbut OK, if that gets general approval
15:11:12AlexPHaving the same thing referred to under different names is bad
15:11:18[Saint]I think it would be suited to the patch. The function of the menu item has changed a lot.
15:11:20JdGordonsimple to change
15:11:37*JdGordon adding the context menu items to change the cat dir
15:11:43AlexPbut anyway, that can be separate
15:12:11*[Saint] stops the current round of builds, reverts stuff, and waits ;)
15:12:22[Saint]I assume its getting committed soon-ish?
15:13:04AlexPJdGordon: I do see your point about not merging, but I'd be much in favour of renaming the two options
15:13:28AlexPThe "currents" can be removed from the items within the context menu in that case
15:14:09JdGordon[Saint]: soon as in the next 45min hopefully
15:14:36JdGordonAlexP: doing that is slightly annoying
15:14:41JdGordona whole new set of lang strings
15:14:54AlexPI think it's worth it
15:15:23AlexPWell, not removing the current maybe
15:15:34AlexPbut rename plyalist to current playlist anyway
15:16:43JdGordonthats easier
15:17:19JdGordonif the next release is 4.0 we should use the opportunity to remove all the deprecated strings, and then adding half a dozen more isnt a big deal
15:17:39AlexP3.10 is the current plan, unless there is anything major
15:17:44JdGordonand given the new mixer i think there is no reason to not do that
15:18:18AlexPSpeaking of which, I should fill in the calendar
15:22:07[Saint]why not 4.0?
15:22:13JdGordonAlexP: I tihnk quite a bit of the manual will be outdated by this change, no?
15:23:13AlexP[Saint]: Because a major version bump implies a major change
15:23:34AlexPJdGordon: Yes, probably
15:23:42AlexPJdGordon: I'll have a look
15:24:02[Saint]I thought historically releases jumped the version by .1?
15:24:08[Saint](except for point releases)
15:24:09AlexP[Saint]: exactly
15:24:14AlexP3.8, 3.9, 3.10
15:24:23[Saint]I don't think I've seen a X.<greater than 9>
15:24:25AlexP3.11, 3.12
15:24:32AlexPWe haven't got there yet
15:24:47AlexPBut of course there are - look at something like gnome
15:24:53AlexPand several million others
15:25:14*JdGordon sudddnely reaslised he's been around for more than 10 releases!
15:25:27JdGordonwell, it will be 10 soon
15:25:28AlexPJdGordon: And you've hated each one :)
15:25:32[Saint]I just assumed it would go from 3.9 to 4.0..."meh".
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15:25:39AlexP[Saint]: Why?
15:25:42AlexP10 follows 9
15:25:57AlexPthey are two different numbers, not decimal places of one
15:26:16AlexPMajor release 3, minor release 10
15:27:12gbl08maTalking about that, how many changes (or other criteria) would be enough to release a 4 major release?
15:27:31[Saint]doesn't the radically new playback stuff count as "major" in this case? (not trying to make myself right, heh ;))
15:27:59[Saint]I did assume it was a decimal number, idea why.
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15:28:22AlexPgbl08ma: Dunno really
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15:28:25JdGordonyeah, I would think the new mixer would easily be enough to justify it
15:28:31AlexP[Saint]: Possibly
15:28:58AlexPI'm not discounting 4.0 if people think it is enough, just saying that 4.0 doesn't follow 3.9 :)
15:29:01gbl08maI think "radically new playback" is what was explained on some ideas for GSoC, putting videos as "normal" playback files, introducing video codecs, etc.
15:29:03TorneWe could just do what everyone else is doing at this point and decide that major releases are not a thing (outside of things that need to be API/ABI compatible with other things) and just call them 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, etc
15:29:05markunjust saw a video where rockbox was mentioned for 1 second :)
15:29:16gbl08maIMO that would be enough for a 4.0 release
15:29:29AlexPgbl08ma: We haven't done those things
15:29:38TorneThere's no real reason to say that any one release is qualitatively different from another
15:29:42markun5:30, about an ipod DAC
15:29:45gbl08maAlexP: I know
15:29:47Torneother than bugfix releases
15:30:19gbl08maTorne: you're talking about only major version releases like Chromium always did, and Firefox is starting to do?
15:30:23AlexPI'd prefer the current system to a major one each time
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15:30:36AlexPWith 4 month releases the numbers get massive very quickly
15:30:46gbl08maI prefer using the minor version numbers on my projects too.
15:30:50TorneAlexP: It's about to get massive anyway
15:30:56AlexPTorne: ?
15:30:58Torne3.10 is just as many characters as 23.0
15:31:04AlexPI didn't mean in characters
15:31:13AlexPIn actual number
15:31:18Torneyes, but that clearly doesn't matter
15:31:26AlexPIt is a matter of preference
15:31:32AlexPI was just staing mine
15:32:08AlexPThere is no more reason to do 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0 etc than 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 etc.
15:32:12gbl08mawell, if we never release 4.0, and keep increasing the minor version number in 3.x, then we'll get an enormous number after 3. Like 3.156 :)
15:32:25AlexPI would hope to get to 4 before that :)
15:32:42AlexPWe aren't trying to buy patents :)
15:33:13AlexPBut anyway, I have no preference on 3.10 vs 4.0 if people think the audio mixer deserves it :)
15:33:21gbl08maand from a certain point of view, it will look like between 3.0 and 3.10 there were only small improvements, while 3.0 is a completely different thing from what 3.10 will be, or what 3.9 already is.
15:33:33Torneyah, that's kinda the reason
15:33:53Tornethe difference between the "minor" releases may not be much, but within 3.x loads of stuff has changed
15:33:57*gbl08ma thinks 4.0 deserves a new theme. getting tired of the cabbie one...
15:34:15AlexPYeah, you could just say the major number changes when cumulatively it is far enough away from the previous one
15:34:39TorneAlexP: Right, but then that seems weird somewhat too, since the difference between 3.9 and 4.0 is little ;)
15:34:45AlexPgbl08ma: Feel free to design and write one for all screen sizes :)
15:34:49AlexPTorne: yeah
15:35:00TorneOnly having major.bugfix establishes that they are just numbers for releases
15:35:11Tornerelease 11 comes after release 10 and before release 9, and that's all it implies :0
15:35:18TorneOkay it doesn't imply that
15:35:23AlexPheh :)
15:35:28Torneunless you have a very strange idea of numbers
15:35:32Tornebut you get what i mean.
15:35:38AlexPjust about :)
15:35:39gbl08ma(well, I never tried 3.0, but when I started using RB there was 3.6 and I find it to have a big difference from 3.9)
15:35:50Torneit's why fedora, chrome, firefox, etc are doing it
15:36:04AlexPThis time round anyway, maybe the cumulative changes + the mixer means enough has changed for a 4.0
15:36:19TorneI wouldn't object to 4.0 this time even if the next one was 4.1
15:36:27TorneI generally find numbers like 3.10 kinda ugly
15:36:42AlexPI find the idea of 26.0 ugly :)
15:36:54[Saint]I'll just have to make sure that every time X.9 rolls around that I encourage a major commit to bump the X so I still get my way :D
15:36:56AlexPbut that is besides the point for this release
15:37:02AlexP[Saint]: :)
15:37:03TorneAlexP: it won't show up until 2018, though :)
15:37:15gbl08maI think numbers like 3.10 confuse newbies (and newcomers), it might be confused with 3.1.0 also.
15:37:25AlexPTorne: We ought to out chrome chrome and release every week :)
15:37:31JdGordonAlexP: [Saint]: is the main menu "Playlist Catalog"'s context menu...
15:37:34TorneYah. Purely from a practical POV, a lot of people really do not understand major.minor
15:37:45JdGordonim not sure if its title should actually be changed
15:37:49gbl08maDo you really think Rockbox will survive until version 26.0?
15:37:56Tornethey confuse it as gbl08a says, which is not a problem as long as you *do* bump the major often enough :)
15:38:06[Saint]gbl08ma: Sure, why not?
15:38:11AlexPPeople are stupid :/
15:38:33AlexPIt doesn't matter in this case, I'm just wary of the people don't understand argument in general
15:38:47*Torne shrugs
15:38:50AlexPYou keep making it easier for these people and in the end it is useless
15:39:04TorneAs you said, it ultimately doesn't change anything either way
15:39:22TorneThe only time when it really matters is if you are, say, a library which has a no-backward-incompatible-change policy
15:39:34AlexPJdGordon: Could you give me a brief summary of the patch changes (just bullet points or something) and I'll have a bash at the manual
15:39:37TorneIf we were doing something like that we should've gone to 4.0 when we broke the WPS syntax :)
15:40:01AlexPTorne: We'll get another opportunity for that, JdGordon wants to break it again :)
15:40:03Tornebut the wps syntax is not a big enough deal imo. we just don't have any interfaces we really need to preserve ;)
15:40:27AlexPTorne: This might become more important with librbcodec
15:40:31TorneAlexP: Indeed
15:40:46TorneBut then I would generally have the library's version number be something independant
15:40:55Tornespecifically so that it could track interface changes
15:40:58Torneand nothing else.
15:41:01gbl08ma[Saint]: well, I was kidding, but anyways my message led me to a thought: DAPs that only do audio like the ones RB supports are going to be discontinued in a few years probably because of suppression by smartphones, tablets, and other shiny gadgets... this means RaaA is the future?
15:41:02AlexPYes, it would need to be I think
15:41:12AlexPgbl08ma: We already think that
15:41:25[Saint]JdGordon: your changes there are fine, IMO
15:41:32TorneYou don't need to know the library version number unless you are developing an app, so users don't need to see it
15:41:41Tornethus it doesn't matter if it makes sense to them
15:42:29[Saint]its made me think the "Start Filebrowser at /" menu item should be in the Filebrowser context menu, though.
15:42:42gbl08maI'd love RaaA much more if I had an Android device (I'm stuck with WM and this old HTC Universal)
15:42:55JdGordon[Saint]: it is there....
15:42:57Tornethe usual one for libs is major for backward-incompatible changes (and also changes soname on *nix), minor for new functionality that doesn't break compat, and revision/bugfix for non-interface changes
15:43:15[Saint]JdGordon: re-read.
15:43:21[Saint]filebrowser, not playlist.
15:43:33JdGordonyes, as i say, thats where it is
15:43:51[Saint]oh...then its in two places.
15:43:58[Saint]which is confusing and sucky.
15:44:02AlexP[Saint]: Bottom item when context on "Files"
15:44:04JdGordonwhere else is it?
15:44:18[Saint]its in settings - general settings - file view.
15:44:28[Saint]bottom item.
15:44:49JdGordonAlexP: tbh, I think one of the weaknesses of the manual is that it tries to explain the menus and UI more than actually explaining how things generally work...
15:45:35[Saint]so I guess the settings - general settings - file view - start filebrowser at / item can piss off, but that'd be a seperate commit.
15:45:36JdGordone.g I'd expect a chaptor on playing music, a chaptor on using the vairous playlist options, etc
15:45:38AlexPJdGordon: Possibly, although with plenty of our menu items they need explaining
15:45:58JdGordonyes, they are neede also, but they shldnt be the whole manual
15:46:03AlexPAnd that'd be a major major rewrite that I for one am not planning to do
15:46:08AlexPFeel free though :)
15:46:11JdGordonbut anyway, yeah, ill put up a list of what i remember changed
15:46:27JdGordonhahaha, me, *write*!!! never!
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15:50:00AlexPJdGordon: Coolio :)
15:50:37gbl08maHonestly, I don't think the audio mixer changes are enough to call a new release 4.0, because there's no evidence to the end user that a new audio mixer is present (to me, RB just sounds like before). for now, it's a behind-the-scenes improvement, and most users would not notice a difference between 3.9 and 4.0...
15:51:02JdGordongbl08ma: thats because you dont know what it fixes
15:51:12JdGordonthe uber-long standing bug where you cant do voice while paused
15:52:01gbl08maThat's *one* bug.
15:52:25gevaertsIt was reported about 2514 times I think
15:53:00JdGordonthat *one* bug is more than enough to bump the major number
15:53:05gbl08maThat's *two thousands, five hundreds and fourteen* bugs.
15:53:17JdGordonplus i think this playlist change is very long overdue
15:53:32gbl08maIt would be the RB release with more bug fixes ever done
15:53:43AlexPIt was a massive bug that voice/paused one, in terms of numbers of times it was reported etc.
15:54:05 Quit kadoban_ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
15:54:36gbl08maJdGordon: we all know you're really willing to have the playlist patch in the svn :)
15:55:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:55:56gbl08maThe new audio mixer means that, theoretically, we could play two audio files at the same time (assuming two codecs can be loaded at the same time, and a plugin handles the playback of the 2nd file)?
15:56:37JdGordoniiuc the playback engine does that with voice+playback anyway, swaps codecs quickly to do it
15:57:10gbl08maand that we can have fancy sound effects on rb->splash?
15:57:16AlexPJdGordon: the voice codec is build into core I thought
15:57:34JdGordonoh is it?
15:57:50AlexPI think so
15:58:05AlexPI'm waiting for someone to confirm/deny :)
15:59:14gbl08mathere's a speex.codec under .rockbox/codecs on my iPod...
15:59:33AlexPyes, and there is a cut down version in core
15:59:43AlexPtalk isn't "proper" speex
15:59:50AlexPIt is raw with no container or anything
15:59:59AlexPAnd I may be talking arse
16:00:03AlexPWe shall see :)
16:00:12gbl08maso, if we delete speex.codec, voice will keep working?
16:00:14gevaertsYes, it is
16:00:14AlexPgevaerts: Am I talking arse?
16:00:20gevaertsAlexP: not right now :)
16:00:24AlexPGood :)
16:02:21gbl08mawhy does the Database have so many .tcd files? can't they be joint in a single one which includes the index & everyting?
16:06:58[Saint]Anyone interested in pushing a tiny commit for me?
16:07:18[Saint] <−− remove irrelevant secondary "start filebrowser at /"
16:07:31[Saint](literally a one line fix)
16:10:30JdGordon[Saint]: that menu is the menu shown in the "files" context menu
16:10:36JdGordonyour patch removs it from both places
16:10:45 Quit gbl08ma (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
16:11:17JdGordonand here we go!
16:11:19CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30177): FS #11808 - Major playlist handling changes (on disk playlists) ...
16:11:56JdGordonAlexP: has the changes i can remember
16:12:06[Saint]the context menu is defined in settings_menu.c?
16:12:24AlexPJdGordon: Ta
16:12:30JdGordonthe context menu is just a shortcut to it
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16:12:43[Saint]Ah, oh...bum :S
16:13:12CIA-14New commit by saratoga (r30178): Fix broken merge of my previous USB changes in the manual.
16:13:16JdGordonsearch for LANG_RESET_START_DIR and you'll see it is only in 1 place
16:13:52[Saint]Yeah, I just did that. Crap. Bah.
16:14:04AlexPOr try your change before asking for it to be committed :)
16:14:09[Saint]Manipulating the menus is not a strongpoint of mine. I though that diff had it covered.
16:16:05CIA-14r30177 build result: All green
16:18:53[Saint]Oh, I hindsight it would have been more sane to check to see I didn't wipe it out from where I *wanted* the item to be, instead of being satisfied with it not being where I didn't want it to be.
16:19:12[Saint]Now this requires more effort...
16:19:44CIA-14r30178 build result: All green
16:19:53CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30179): Add the playlist catalog option to the %cs manual text
16:22:52JdGordon[Saint]: blame it on the time :)
16:23:28CIA-14r30179 build result: All green
16:29:20JdGordonshould the quickscreen fix today be considered a major change for the stupid bug that they were ever there!
16:29:45AlexPEnhancement maybe :)
16:29:56AlexPIt wasn't really a bug, just a silly option
16:30:03JdGordondefinitly a bug :)
16:30:35gbl08maIndeed that quickscreen change might fix many "bug" reports about RB not showing all files, not allowing track changing (only adding to playlist), etc. etc.
16:31:17gbl08maand it's a silly option only if we think people are going to hit the quickscreen accidentally (not something that happens with me)
16:32:17JdGordonthe problem is more that peope get there and dont know how to get out and accidentally change the setting
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16:33:53AlexPgbl08ma: Plenty of people did manage to change it by accident
16:33:59AlexPThis is why we removed it :)
16:36:05gbl08maindeed, the quickscreen has four directions, and even myself often forgot that to exit I press select...
16:36:38gbl08matalking about quickscreen... does anyone remember a discussion about a multiple-page quickscreen on the forums?
16:37:00JdGordonIIRC that was more a discussion to make it a proper menu
16:37:09JdGordonand let the user choose which settings they want on it
16:37:35gbl08maI don't need such thing anymore, because I taught myself not to use the QS.
16:38:01gbl08mastill, if work on the menu ever gets done by someone, I'm in!
16:38:18gbl08maMr. Someone will do it, for Rockbox version 34.5
16:38:57JdGordonMr. Partypooper will say "Not a chance is that going in!"
16:39:48gbl08mabtw, Mr. Someone has been very inactive lately... or is it me that doesn't notice the commits by Mr. Someone?
16:39:53*[Saint] still wants one QS related commit in svn...
16:40:02[Saint]FS #12075
16:40:04fs-bluebot Add timeout to quickscreen (patches, unconfirmed)
16:40:32[Saint]"On noes! more settings!"...but, useful.
16:40:54JdGordonI wouldnt hold your breath... we dont like screens changing without the user realising
16:41:13[Saint]well, they have to specifically set it, it defaults off.
16:41:43[Saint]so its a conscious decision to use it.
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16:42:52gbl08maA setting to come back to the WPS after a certain time would be better IMO, because if we only apply it to the QS, people will start asking: what about a timeout on pitch screen? what about a timeout on pictureflow? what about a timeout on <insert valid (or not) rockbox screen here>
16:43:01*JdGordon finds another bug worth fixing
16:43:26[Saint]gbl08ma: why return to the WPS?
16:43:36[Saint]you may not have entered <screen> *from* the WPS
16:43:51gbl08maIIRC some people already asked for such a timeout
16:44:18gbl08maalternatively, we can add the QS timeout and another WPS timeout...
16:44:24[Saint]the quickscreen is the only screen that's particularly likely to be entered accidentally.
16:44:43[Saint]returning to the WPS after <foo> I doubt will ever happen.
16:45:10[Saint]the QS has a *slight* chance, if argued well enough...even then, very slight.
16:45:36gbl08maI think it's easier to accidentally do a quick press on the WPS and go to the main menu, than a long press and go to the QS
16:46:07[Saint]yes, ok...granted. But how do you know if the pres was accidental or not?
16:46:34gbl08masame with the QS: people may enter the QS propositatedly
16:46:39gbl08ma*on purpose
16:47:10[Saint]you wouldn;t want to exit the WPS and have it throw you back there because you spent a bit too long deciding what album to play.
16:47:31[Saint]It'd be a lot less anoying in the QS imo, as that's generally designed for *quick* actions.
16:48:32[Saint]I might also like to start playback and keep the screen in the database/filebrowser.
16:48:33gbl08maI'm not saying return-to-WPS timeout is better than QS timeout. One only replaces the other if you access the QS from the WPS. At the same time, I agree that two time outs would be confusing...
16:48:42[Saint]its unlikely anywants to stay in the quickscreen.
16:49:14[Saint]*anyone wants
16:49:49gbl08mayou never know, people may fall in love with that four directional arrows pointing to settings, and admire it for hours... nah, joking :) I'm not a big fan of timeouts in small devices like the DAPs Rockbox supports.
16:49:52JdGordondammit.. FS #8656 isnt trivial to fix
16:49:53fs-bluebot Error saving non-current playlist file (bugs, unconfirmed)
16:50:14JdGordonapparently we cant easily rewrite .m3u8 files because we dont load them fully into ram
16:50:35 Quit the_kyle (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
16:50:47gbl08maJdGordon: and that bug is old, now you see why it has never been fixed...
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16:54:12CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30180): s/Playlist/Current Playlist/ in the playlist viewer context menu. ...
16:54:38JdGordongbl08ma: age and triviality dont neceassrily correlate
16:54:57gbl08mayeah, it depends if some dev looked at it or not
16:55:40JdGordonIf i remember I'll try to fix that over the weekend
16:56:10JdGordonnot to self: try to grab the audio/plugin/codec/voice/any buffer as a temp buffer so this can work
16:57:29CIA-14r30180 build result: All green
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17:05:57gbl08maIs OGG embdded AA decoding in Rockbox technically possible? today there was a small discussion about AA on OGG on this channel,
17:06:59[Saint]I guess *anything* is possible....but, embedded AA is the Devil.
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17:08:18gbl08maembedded AA would save me probably more than 50MB of disk space, because most of my music is OGG and I need to use separate images to have AA
17:08:26[Saint]the only need I could see for embedded AA is if you had one folder that contained your entire music collection in individual files not seperated into Artist/Album
17:08:45[Saint]embedded AA wouldn;t save you anything.
17:08:59[Saint]you know that the art is duplicated, and added to each file, right?
17:09:09[Saint]you'd LOSE space.
17:10:05gbl08maI have most of my music collection in individual files not separated into Artist/Album. And yes, I know embedded AA is added to each file. Just didn't think of that
17:10:22gbl08mathe only thing it would save is the size of the list of files in the file browser
17:11:04[Saint]if you make "folder/cover.jpg hidden files, and put the show files option to "supported", you won't see them.
17:12:46gbl08maThe problem with "supported" is that, on other folders, it hides files I want to see. that's also why some newbie users made bug reports after accidentally changing that setting on the QS, now it's solved.
17:13:40[Saint]what files does it hide that you want to see? It should, in theory, display any file extension you can forseeably do anything useful with in Rockbox.
17:15:47gbl08mafiles I might want to edit with the text editor, for example. or when I want to delete essential files when I'm bored and willing to break Rockbox, before unzipping a new build... :)
17:16:07gbl08maalso hides README files, etc.
17:16:44gbl08ma(sometimes the iPod acts as temporary pendrive, or when I want to read things on the go, although for that now I use my phone)
17:16:46[Saint]all files the text editor can open should be displayed, if not, I'd call that a bug. The latter is a specific use case that would warrant changing the view setting, imo.
17:17:46 Quit mdipolt (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
17:18:01Torne[Saint]: the text editor can open anything
17:18:05Torneso that doesn't really help
17:18:47[Saint]Ah...hmmm. (You can tell I don;t really use the text editor on my DAPs, I'm...well, not insane ;))
17:19:41gbl08maI don't use it much either. It's more for doing quick edits on theme files without needing to connect to the computer again.
17:21:27[Saint]that, to me, would be a use case rare enough to warrant changing the file-view setting from supported to all.
17:22:18[Saint]If all extensions the text viewer can open are listed in supported, I'd say there's no problem (with newfound knowledge the editor opens everything).
17:22:44gbl08maI think the text viewer open everything too...
17:23:10[Saint]basically as I said, every file you can forseeably do anything useful with (in normal use cases) should be listed under supported.
17:24:32*gbl08ma rethinks on the huge file list issue on Music folder due to AA files
17:25:36[Saint]My solution for that is to make them hidden files (in Windows), and use the "Supported" view.
17:25:58[Saint]but, I only get a single "Folder.jpg" per directory. Not a huge list.
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17:26:14gbl08maI don't think it's worth changing the file filter to Supported and making files hidden, when I have only 192 music files + about 150 AA files unsorted. Only artists/albums with more than three track have their own folder
17:26:33gbl08mathus having their own folder.jpg
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18:59:43pixelmaI wanted to know if playliists stored alongside the files (same directory or above) keep working with the new handling
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19:01:18pixelmaI also don't think that the old behaviour was "broken"... additionally to that I apologise for not asking earlier but I don't have much rockbox time lately
19:02:32gbl08mavarious users confirmed the old behaviour was broken, I'm one of them
19:02:50 Quit bthomson (Read error: Operation timed out)
19:02:59gbl08mawhen selecting to see a playlist that wasn't playing at that moment, it would just return to the file browser
19:03:11gbl08mawhy do you think it wasn't "broken"?
19:03:49 Quit boghog (Quit: boghog)
19:03:52AlexPgbl08ma: I'm in favour of the patch, but you cannot say that one way of use is broken and another isn't
19:04:00AlexPIt is just how you prefer it to work
19:04:13AlexPAnd I bet I coud find a user to say anything was broken
19:04:39AlexPIt isn't a question of confirming it
19:04:55pixelmagbl08ma: I'm just referring to the principle, what you describe sounds like a bug
19:05:14gbl08mayes, I was talking about the bug
19:05:24AlexPWell that bug isn't the point
19:05:40pixelmathat the playlist would be stored in the music directories not the catalogue
19:05:48gbl08maafaik no one said the old behaviour was broken. the only thing broken to my knowledge was the function to view a playlist from the file browser
19:07:01gbl08maAbout the behaviour, I think (my own opinion) the correct approach would be to eliminate the catalogue as it is now, and let playlists be created in the music's folder. the catalogue would be implemented in a different way:
19:07:52gbl08mathe database would scan for playlist files and display them together, and that would be RB's playlist catalogue. That's how things should work, IMO of course.
19:08:13AlexPIt shouldn't be tied to the database
19:08:29 Quit krazykit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
19:09:31gbl08maThen how do we make the playlist catalogue show all playlists in the device and not just those inside /playlists?
19:09:40AlexPYou can do that in addition
19:09:56AlexPI don't object to having the database show all the playlists on the device
19:10:30AlexPBut I strenuously object to having the database forced on me
19:10:41AlexPPart of the great attraction of Rockbox is not having to use a database
19:11:31gbl08maI think playlists in the DB is an interesting feature. Not that I use playlists much, but I have a few created. But, I agree that perhaps that shouldn't replace the playlist catalogue...
19:11:52AlexPthey definitely shouldn't
19:12:04AlexPI don't understand why people are so keen to force others to use the database
19:12:40gbl08ma(I don't use the database much, but I find it useful for certain things, e.g. play stats)
19:13:01AlexPI don't need to be told how often I listen to something
19:13:37gbl08manor do I, but it's nice to have. Of course, I could live with the DB disabled.
19:13:54gbl08mathen again, how will playlist catalogue show all playlists in the device and not just those inside /playlists?
19:14:02AlexPIt won't
19:14:17gbl08maisn't the playlist catalogue meant to show all the playlists on the device?
19:15:06AlexPThat would be a job for the database
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19:15:46gbl08maso, why have the playlist catalogue if it is just a copy of /playlists? obviously, other users might find this "copy" useful...
19:16:05AlexP/playlists IS the playlist catalog
19:16:10AlexPIt has existed for ages
19:17:34gbl08mathen, some of the JdGordon's (I think was who commited the changes) changes need to be reverted.
19:18:34gbl08mait will create all the playlists on the playlist catalogue and this is not intended, or is it?
19:19:25AlexPWell, by default
19:19:34AlexPYou can chose to put them somewhere else if you want
19:20:46gbl08maIIRC JdGordon's change was to put the playlist saving text input with "/playlists/" as default text, to ease saving of playlists
19:21:03AlexPyes, into the catalogue
19:21:08pixelmaAlexP: is ther also the choice to have it in the current playlist item's directory and not one set directory?
19:21:16AlexP(you can change the location of the catalogue)
19:21:37AlexPpixelma: I don't know - you can of course type it in, but I don't know if there is an option
19:22:13AlexPI feel a bit sorry for JdGordon - he first sent emails about this patch in November last year
19:22:51*gbl08ma wonders how to change the location of the catalogue... (haven't read the manual from the start to the end for months)
19:23:00AlexPHe just added that
19:23:07AlexPAnd I haven't got round to the manual changes
19:23:15AlexPHint: use the context menu
19:24:13gbl08mais the patch still needed or these changes are commited? I'm getting a bit confused...
19:24:21AlexPHe's committed it
19:24:22pixelmayes, but then it got forgotten and he picked it up quite recently and I admit not having noticed for a while... so for me the time between discussion and actual commit was too short. I remember reading a big discussion about this with Llorean last weekend or so - and half a week is not much for such a big change if it takes existing functionality away
19:24:37AlexPpixelma: He's been asking for testers for weeks
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19:24:56pixelmaI only know of one
19:25:42pixelmaand by the way - I wasn't complaining much yet, just asking
19:25:49*gbl08ma goes svn update'ing his checkout and make && make zip'ing a new build to see if he can change the catalogue location
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19:26:49AlexPpixelma: I don't know if there is or not, but if not I would have thought an option to save playlists locally or in the catalogue by default would be in order
19:27:05*pixelma sighs at making rules about decision making
19:27:26pixelmaas agreed on several times before
19:27:31AlexPIf nobody bothers to test or comment, I don't see there is much else to do
19:28:09pixelmasorry about real life
19:28:39AlexPOf course you can't do anything about that, but you can't stop everything until everybody is free
19:28:53gbl08maI'm getting lots of conflicts on svn update'ing, related to the playlists part. Accepted all merged versions, let's see if it compiles cleanly... if not, I'll have to do a full svn revert and reapply patches...
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19:29:44gbl08maof course it returned errors. I'm not going to bother more, I'll just svn revert everything...
19:30:59pixelmaAlexP: and what about Llorean's points - I think it was exactly that but got a bit lost when discussion went out of hands. I don't remember seeing any reaction to that
19:31:13AlexPI don't remember
19:31:15pixelmain terms of patch rethought
19:31:43AlexPI'm not defending all aspects of this, I'm not the author or an expert in it
19:31:52AlexPI'm just defending it being committed
19:32:26AlexPIf people wanted to test/comment but couldn't because of other things couldn't, I would have thought a quick mail to the list stating that would have been useful
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19:33:58pixelmathe "I pick this up again" mail was on the 18th?
19:34:13AlexPI think so, but it came up in here loads
19:34:18AlexPin addition
19:35:32gbl08maI tested JdGordon's patch after one of his messages on IRC asking for testers.
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19:35:59pixelmayes, but I thought we agreed on IRC not being the proper place - and two days isn't much
19:36:44AlexP8 months is though
19:36:53AlexPMore than long enough for comments on the tracker
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19:38:52pixelmasomehow that doesn't strike me as fair, can't give much reason though except: time this thing was on people's minds was way less than 8 months as it was probably forgotten for a while in between
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19:39:50pixelmaalso, I remember not seeing explained or understanding all the things this change comes with
19:39:51bertriklength of time on the tracker is not a very good criterium for inclusion of a patch I think
19:40:33AlexPI'm not defending everthing here, just saying that I understand
19:40:53AlexPIt happens everytime, nobody tests or comments until it goes in
19:41:06kugelletting people wait to test a patch for more than a week is unreasonable
19:41:36pixelmabut it wasn't a week in most people's attention I guess
19:41:51kugelthen pay attention if you're interested
19:41:56gevaertsWe've always said that patches that aren't meant for inclusing (eventually...) shouldn't be on the tracker. I think it's not unreasonable to derive from that that any new patch on the tracker is an implicit request for comments, which is equivalent to discussing things on the mailing list
19:42:00pixelmaeach and every day?
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19:42:20kugelwhich is why I said more than a wekk
19:42:21pixelmait was 2 days on the ml
19:42:35pixelmafor the "I pick it up again"
19:42:51AlexPIt had been picked up before that, as comments on the traqcker show
19:43:13AlexPAnd given the prvious discussion, anyone interested could have been getting emails from the tracker
19:43:32kugelpixelma: you seem tend to come up with complaints only post-commit (no offense)
19:43:53pixelmaI've also done lots of testing
19:43:53kugelweird sentence, but anyway
19:44:41kugelIMO we can't afford stalling development because of other people's lack of time
19:44:57kugelespecially since I noticed the development rate somewhat decreased recently
19:45:25bertrikit depends on what your goal is, I guess
19:45:38AlexPgevaerts: Especially when there was a discussion at the start and then further discussion on the tracker
19:45:41kugelour goal is fun, as ever :)
19:46:22bertrikI won't mind having a stable rockbox with slower development over time, as we're getting more complete
19:46:43bertrikI don't feel a push to add more and more stuff
19:46:56kugelthis patch didn't actually push new stuff IIUC
19:47:25pixelmabut removed old features? Still not sure about that though... :\
19:47:34kugelhopefully with gerrit this problem will be gone, if it can make people review stuff more actively
19:47:40pixelmaas even testers don't seem to know about
19:51:23pixelmaand surely forcing things on others by means of committing something will get more attention. I guess that's natural
19:51:23AlexPThey don't get any attention before
19:51:23saratogawe always have slower development in mid summer since people are away
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19:51:23pixelmait got mine with this weekend's discussion but I wasn't prepared for this commit
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19:51:46pixelmaI can't give evidence but I wanted to ask what I asked at the beginning today anyway these days
19:52:55kugelI dont see a reason to complain how this patch was handled, JdGordon did way better than previously :)
19:53:32pixelmaa bit but not *way* in my eyes
19:53:36kugelI knowingly didn't bother so I don't complain even if I might notice something I'm unhappy with
19:53:55kugelwell, I might complain, but not that it was committed too early
19:54:36kugelI also find it unreasonable to expect everyone to wait for me until I have time to look at things
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19:54:54gbl08mabtw, did the manual get updated with JdGordon's changes? I just tried the latest build, the playlist part has some different things (no matter you like them or not) that must go in the manual...
19:55:06gbl08maanyways, seeing as this is still being discussed...
19:55:28saratogayeah i tend to agree with kugel, its pretty hard to get people to review anything, and theres inevitably someone complaining after major commits
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19:55:53saratogaso i tend to think its best to commit eventually and then fix things once people start complaining
19:56:37kugelwhat annoys me a bit is that we have exactly this discussion over and over
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19:56:48AlexPgbl08ma: [19:23:08] <AlexP> And I haven't got round to the manual changes
19:57:07pixelmakugel: I don't expect anyone to wait for me but two days are too few to me... sure you could discuss if it was two days or more here, that's why I would like to see some rules
19:58:10kugelthe mail is almost 3 days old
19:58:21kugeland I'm sure he came up with this thing earler
19:58:45pixelma2 or 3... still not a week which I would have found approriate
19:59:12gevaertsIt's not 3 days. It's 8 months
19:59:12kugelpixelma: you should at the very least say "hey, I don't currently have time but I want to have a look so please wait a bit for me", but that didn't happen
19:59:12saratogahasn't these changes been in the works for months?
19:59:28kugelI don't think such a mail/post/whatever is too much too ask for
19:59:28AlexPsaratoga: Since November
19:59:42pixelmagevaerts: I already state what I think about that
19:59:52pixelmaanyway, doesn't look like anyone knows the new behaviour enough to answer my two questions about it... so
20:00:04AlexPThat the tracker is irrelevant?
20:00:09kugelwell, when the patch was opened doesn't really count if there's half a year of inactivity
20:00:18gevaertskugel: why not?
20:00:23pixelmaAlexP: I didn't say tat
20:00:26pixelmaat all
20:00:34kugelgevaerts: because everyone has forgotten about it
20:00:45gevaertskugel: what if he had committed it back then?
20:00:45AlexPBut stuff being on the tracker for ages doesn't count?
20:01:16kugelafter such a long time of inactivity the rules should be the same as for newly opened tasks
20:01:19saratogai guess it depends how much changes right before its committed
20:01:39gevaertskugel: why?
20:01:50saratogai remember people complaining that i didn't discuss the power button changes after i got almost everyone i could think of to agree to them and then left them on the tracker for 5 months while i asked even more people
20:01:56kugelgevaerts: because everyone has forgotten about it
20:02:11saratogasome peopel still complained that they weren't warned which was absolutely ridiculous
20:02:34pixelmaAlexP: no, but to me (and as I said before), especially controversial feature( change)s and that's what I think it is, should go to the ml (and have some rules about it :\ )
20:02:54kugelwhat's controversial is controversial :)
20:02:55AlexPThis is partly a problem with there being so much dead stuff on the tracker, it hides other things
20:03:00gevaertskugel: it's been on the tracker all along. It's *extremely* easy to go and look at new patches every week or so. If people don't do that, they don't get to blame people who put the stuff there
20:03:19kugelpixelma: it didn't appear this changes were controversial
20:03:23kugelnot to me, that is
20:03:32saratogaits not hard to watch it!
20:03:36saratogaexactly, we have a subscribe feature and an RSS feed for the tracker
20:03:47pixelmaI look at *new* items in the bug or patch tracker, just not old ones anymore
20:03:58saratogai skim every new task posted to the tracker, takes like 5 minutes a day
20:04:06AlexPWe can't adapt to everyone's way of working
20:04:08kugelyes, but even if you deeply looked at a task 6 month ago, it's out of your memory now
20:04:11pixelmakugel: seen the discussion with Llorean?
20:04:15AlexPPeople have to adapt a bit too
20:04:26kugelso the notice about new activity is equivalent to the notice bout a new task
20:04:27AlexPkugel: Then you should have subscribed to it then
20:04:31gevaertspixelma: did you comment on it when it was new?
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20:04:58pixelmagevaerts: no, but I didn't understand what it did exactly
20:05:03saratogaare we talking about a reviving a dead task and rewriting it, or just committing something that was left mostly done on the tracker for comment?
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20:05:28kugelsomething in the middle
20:05:49saratogai'd say if the features change siginficantly it needs an email and a long wait
20:05:54pixelmaI still think the original description is lacking quite a bit about actual consequences of the change
20:06:04saratogaif the implementation is improved but the features don't, then i don't think that matters
20:06:09AlexPhence testing being a good idea
20:06:50pixelmae.g. what happens with the existing "alongside files" playlists and if it is still possible to save any such easily
20:06:55saratogait seems like if you're watching an area of code (say codecs, playlists, wps) its pretty reasonable to subscribe to FS tasks concerning that area and maybe even comment on them
20:07:43saratogaif you have months to do so and did not, then its mostly ones own fault when its committed without one reviewing it
20:08:12saratogasomeone with SVN access putting something on the tracker basically says "i want to commit this, take a look at it before I do"
20:08:47saratogaif someone doesn't comment after a length of time, its reasonable to think they don't have an opinion
20:10:52pixelmamaybe there is an item for this new catalogue folder item "current (file's) directory?
20:11:05pixelmacatalogue folder setting
20:11:43gbl08mayes there is a setting, it works very similarly to the "start filebrowser here" setting.
20:11:58AlexPgbl08ma: That's a setting for which dir is the catalog
20:12:06AlexPgbl08ma: pixelma is asking something different
20:12:15pixelmawell that would be one fixed directory
20:13:14gbl08maI keep on re-reading pixelma's sentence and I think what she means is what I explained, but certainly I'm wrong. letting the discussion go on...
20:14:07AlexPgbl08ma: She wants an option that lets you select whether to use the catalog, or to save the playlist in whatever directory the files you have added are in
20:14:20AlexPgbl08ma: i.e. not always in the same directory
20:15:23gbl08maI see. that setting would render part of this discussion unnecessary...
20:16:22gbl08mawhat RSS feeds does Rockbox have exactly? only the tracker one? is there any to indicate new releases and such? and more importantly, is there a list of these?
20:17:28bertrikthe tracker has several ones, like most recent entry and most recently modified entry
20:18:39 Quit gbl08ma (Quit: gbl08ma)
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20:19:08gbl08maanything more than the tracker ones?
20:21:08saratogawhere is the link for the RSS feeds again?
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21:17:20pixelmasaratoga: thanks for fixing the manual commit btw.
21:17:59saratogano problem, not sure how i copied the wrong line of text into my clean tree for that commit
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21:24:20bertrikI have an ipod nano 1g and an IAP accessory now, so I can finally hack on IAP myself
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21:40:35bertrikThere's no wiki page about the ipod nano1g apparently... at least I can't find one
21:41:01gbl08maI think there never was. At least, I never found one.
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21:51:41bertrikbutton-clickwheel.c has two return statements in a row, can't be right
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21:59:12bertrikIAP stops working for me once I enter the I/O debug screen, any ideas?
21:59:22bertrik(on the nano 1g)
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22:06:34*bertrik spots some frivolous unimplemented functions for ipod nano 1g: lcd invert and lcd flip ;)
22:08:48bertrikHave the LCD controllers been positively identified for the the various lcd types in the nano1g and color?
22:09:14bertrik(if so, this is nice information to put in the source code, thank you very much)
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22:22:54preglowdon't think they were
22:23:01preglow5g and nano shares the controller too, afaik
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22:47:25bertrikyay, LCD inverse mode works on my ipod nano1g, not really useful but nice :)
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22:50:23bertrikCan the ipod nano 1g also have different lcd types, or is it just the ipod color that has different types?
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23:21:32CIA-14New commit by bertrik (r30181): ipod nano 1g: show lcd type debug info, make more room for iap debug info
23:24:48CIA-14r30181 build result: All green
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23:49:41bug2000Is there a firmware for the Fuzev2 to work `hidden` mode?
23:49:59bug2000As in, booting OF unless I have the LEFT button pressed at boot time.
23:50:10bug2000In other words, reverse the current start way.
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23:55:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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