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| 00:48:02 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 00:56:16 | tronse | hello again |
| 00:57:07 | tronse | ive half sorted my little problem i had yesterday |
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| 02:10:50 | jhMikeS | JdGordon: skip_update doesn't update immediately or does the skin not use its own local state to display the play/pause/stop icon? |
| 02:10:57 | jhMikeS | *skin_update |
| 02:12:42 | JdGordon | yes and no |
| 02:13:01 | JdGordon | err... it does *not* use its own state for playback status |
| 02:13:04 | jhMikeS | schrodinger's skin? |
| 02:13:11 | jhMikeS | oh |
| 02:13:30 | JdGordon | it doesnt necessarily update absolutly immediatly though |
| 02:14:01 | JdGordon | the sbs might only update once every button press, the wps will be either 10HZ or 25HZ IIRC |
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| 02:17:45 | jhMikeS | Well, I noticed that when the playback engine is busy during buffer, even if skin_update is called before calling audio_pause/resume, the indicator doesn't lead the engine state |
| 02:19:49 | DEBUG | EOF from server (Connection reset by peer) (snapshot: netstuff.c line 545) |
| 02:19:49 | *** | Cleanup |
| 02:19:49 | *** | Cleanup |
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| 02:19:49 | *** | Exit |
| 02:19:51 | *** | Started Dancer V4.16 |
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| 02:21:17 | jhMikeS | JdGordon: Even if there's a delay in engine response due to it being preoccupied with something else and unable to response immediately, I sort of expected the icon to reflect what I pressed, not lag until the state change is finished |
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| 02:22:42 | JdGordon | the skin engine just calls current_playmode() and displays its return value |
| 02:24:23 | JdGordon | at worst that should display HZ/5 after the press |
| 02:24:24 | jhMikeS | ah, which I see just calls audio_status |
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| 02:28:31 | jhMikeS | playback can lag longer if things are heavily loaded |
| 03:00 |
| 03:01:11 | jhMikeS | with some care, some playback control actions can just be done on the caller thread so that buffering tracks and user actions have minimal contact. audio does too much (but that's another project) :) |
| 03:03:54 | JdGordon | so, we can expect it next week? :) |
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| 03:08:38 | jhMikeS | JdGordon: in that case, the next week belong to some other year :) |
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| 03:29:09 | JdGordon | are there any RIAA grpahs for the iriver h300? |
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| 03:38:02 | CIA-14 | New commit by jethead71 (r30340): Fix FS #12238 - WPS delay on pause introduced by r30097 which was the excuse I wanted anyway to do a better PCM fade on stop/pause implementation. New ... |
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| 03:40:46 | CIA-14 | r30340 build result: All green |
| 03:43:55 | JdGordon | non blocking fade? |
| 03:44:00 | jhMikeS | yeah |
| 03:44:04 | JdGordon | \o/ |
| 03:44:29 | jhMikeS | except when stopping |
| 03:46:22 | jhMikeS | I'm not certain it's safe everywhere to have the engine not _actually_ stopped by the time audio_stop returns |
| 03:47:22 | jhMikeS | actually, shutdown comes to mind, maybe some plugins and such |
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| 06:45:26 | glued | JdGordon, LCD API looks much more sane now, ty. Those func wrappers were the work of satan, I think, to provoke wtfs. |
| 06:45:38 | glued | jhMikeS, All green :'( |
| 06:45:46 | JdGordon | still got some work to do there though |
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| 06:48:26 | glued | hopefully only rolo used spaces to blank the strs |
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| 07:00 |
| 07:00:57 | jhMikeS | green as hell unfortunately |
| 07:04:04 | kugel | jhMikeS: I think audio_hard_stop() should ignore or wait for the fade |
| 07:04:58 | jhMikeS | all stopping still waits for the fade |
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| 07:58:31 | CIA-14 | New commit by jethead71 (r30341): Fix a miscomment in pcmbuf.c |
| 08:00 |
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| 08:01:15 | CIA-14 | r30341 build result: All green |
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| 08:28:16 | scorche | wtachi: how goes GSoC? How do you feel about the final evaluation? |
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| 08:30:57 | kugel | Hmm all firmware code is compiled with apps/* in the includes |
| 08:33:31 | jhMikeS | amiconn will smite you if you cross the holy firmware-to-apps barrier :P |
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| 09:41:10 | sideral | JdGordon: Out of pure curiosity, and no offense intended: Why didn't you voice your objection to the Time&Date menu change proposed by Saint any sooner? |
| 09:41:53 | [Saint] | Ohhhhh....ffs. |
| 09:41:58 | [Saint] | I've been busy. |
| 09:42:04 | [Saint] | What *is* the objection. |
| 09:42:36 | [Saint] | sideral? (where can I view this?) |
| 09:43:16 | sideral | on the mailing list |
| 09:43:28 | [Saint] | thanks. |
| 09:43:38 | * | [Saint] looks and prepares to grit his teeth. |
| 09:43:48 | sideral | Saint: This is exactly why I wanted you to start a separate thread |
| 09:44:20 | | Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 09:45:56 | JdGordon | sideral: i did notice, i dont particularly care that much and didnt want to derail that other thread |
| 09:46:05 | [Saint] | sideral: I still don't see the point. The two are tied together. |
| 09:46:11 | JdGordon | personally i think the system menu should just be removed |
| 09:46:21 | [Saint] | It needs to get sorted out, dividing the thrwad reducxes the chances of that happening. |
| 09:46:42 | kugelp | sideral: i suggest ignoring JdGordon :-) |
| 09:47:05 | n1s | i think its fun how this discussion keeps surfacing, the one we had llast time the position of the time and date was changed was very long and boring |
| 09:47:35 | JdGordon | i stand by "time & date" not belonging in settings, but really dont care all that much |
| 09:47:59 | [Saint] | which is exactly why I think it should be changed while the majority are in favour of it, and to hell with those who haven't voiced an opinion. |
| 09:48:45 | [Saint] | ANd I, stand firmly with "time & Date" should be in settings, if only for the fact that "System" is a fucking stupid place for it. |
| 09:49:08 | n1s | that's a crap attitude necause to count as having "voiced an oppinion" here you need to do so over and over everytime the discussion restarts |
| 09:49:26 | God_Eater | moving Time & Date into settings seems sensible to me |
| 09:49:43 | [Saint] | If you look at the rest of the items in System, Time & Date sticks out like a sore thumb. |
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| 09:50:00 | [Saint] | Moving it out leaves that menu for "System-esque" things. |
| 09:51:02 | JdGordon | settings without t&d has: "rockbox info" "credits" "running time" and "debug info". rockbox info is pointless, credits is a bit of a wank, running time is entirely stupid, and debug info is pointless and should be disable by default |
| 09:51:17 | [Saint] | I realize that Rockbox rarely follows the convention of other devices just because it "should" (contentious), but many devices consider Time and Date a setting, and I personally think it will make it a lot easier for new users to discover. |
| 09:51:55 | [Saint] | s/Settings/System/? |
| 09:52:01 | JdGordon | how about we move the "system" menu entries into "settings" and *rename* settings to system |
| 09:52:25 | * | sideral tunes out of this argument. I'll have a look later, but otherwise won't let this delay the sleep-timer enhancements any further. |
| 09:52:52 | JdGordon | everything currently in settings has the "settings" suffix in english anyway so it is obvious which is a setting and which "isnt" |
| 09:53:23 | [Saint] | sideral: As it stands...I'd basically ignore this and go with what we had earlier this afternoon (when I *thought* (Oh, silly me) we had it sorted... ;) ) |
| 09:53:27 | JdGordon | sideral: err... *where* in the settings submenu are you planing on putting t&d? |
| 09:55:05 | [Saint] | I was thinking (as I'm fairly confident most were...) "/ - Settings - Time & Data - <t & d sub-menus>" |
| 09:55:41 | JdGordon | so why not do that with the other system menu items? |
| 09:55:55 | JdGordon | or better yet, move settings directly into system |
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| 09:56:33 | [Saint] | Argh!..no that seems far to much of a drastic change. |
| 09:56:41 | [Saint] | This is getting *really* bike-shed |
| 09:56:52 | sideral | JdGordon: I won't put it there at all unless Saint wins piggybacking this change on the sleep-timer changes. :) If he does, though, I'll put it last, just before Manage Settings |
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| 09:57:47 | [Saint] | I thought it was (apparently not by all) decided that Time & Date was getting pulling into Settings, and System will become "About" and stay in the main menu where it was as it was previously. |
| 09:57:53 | nickp2 | sideral: thanks for the effort you've put into this, I'm feeling a bit guilty at the grief it has caused you. |
| 09:58:07 | sideral | nick-p: Please make sure you don't make any further changes until this operetta is over :) |
| 09:58:34 | JdGordon | [Saint]: and im saying whatever the system menu is called, it is pointless and removing it completly makes more sense |
| 09:58:39 | nickp2 | sideral: sure, was just curious how the other suggestion would work out. |
| 09:58:49 | [Saint] | sideral: I do love the way you make this all my fault....it actually fucks me off. Just ecause I suggested it, look at the fucking thread...ITS NOT JUST ME THAT WANTS THIS. |
| 09:59:04 | JdGordon | relax [Saint] |
| 09:59:34 | [Saint] | I'm just getting sick of all the digs at me and getting blamed for holding this up. |
| 09:59:46 | n1s | i would still prefer gratitous menu changes not to be mixed in with functional changes and discussed separately |
| 09:59:47 | * | JdGordon sees no digs |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:31 | [Saint] | n1s: I would agree too, were the two not related. |
| 10:00:59 | [Saint] | Its not like I've sugegsted a completely arbitrary menu change in this thread...its tied to the patch. |
| 10:01:05 | sideral | Saint: I didn't mean to dig. Apologies if it came across like that. |
| 10:01:08 | [Saint] | bah, *suggested |
| 10:01:31 | | Quit nick-p (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) |
| 10:01:41 | n1s | [Saint]: yeah it's related but i don't see why it had to be changed at the same time |
| 10:01:44 | sideral | Saint: But I do think as well that the menu change should be discussed separately. It does not depend on the sleep-timer enhancements, even though the reverse may not be true |
| 10:01:53 | [Saint] | sideral: Thanks, I'm probably reading it wrong but its coming across to me as though the blame for this not being in svn presently is resting on my shoulders. |
| 10:01:56 | [Saint] | Sorry for venting. |
| 10:02:12 | * | God_Eater thinks the menu controversy is actually AlexP's fault ;) |
| 10:02:29 | [Saint] | n1s: I've never said it has to be, I've said *multiple* times that it should be committed seperately even! ;) |
| 10:02:35 | nickp2 | [Saint] I'm not sure it's that related, the functionality would still work wherever it was set from |
| 10:02:39 | [Saint] | I just don't think it warrants two threads. |
| 10:03:04 | sideral | Saint: Then you'll have to live with my "picking" :) |
| 10:03:34 | sideral | Anyway, it looks like JdGordon is not throwing his full weight behind blocking this change −− correct? |
| 10:04:26 | [Saint] | I'm not sure where the idea came up that I don't think this should go in *until* the menu is changed...I don't thnk that at all. While I think it'd be nice to do it all in one go I've never been opposed to committing the timer and then the menu cleanup afterward. |
| 10:04:50 | [Saint] | I just think (and its likely true) that the menu cleanup is far less likely to happen if it doesn't go in at the same time. |
| 10:04:55 | sideral | nickp2: Don't feel guilty. This isn't really anyone's fault, it's just the way it is with so many stakeholders. I'm willing to believe that compromise is possible −− I'm always optimistic :) |
| 10:05:13 | JdGordon | sideral: I'm saying the change isnt enough, and also that it isnt related to the origional patch and should be dealt with |
| 10:05:17 | [Saint] | sideral: You'd know about it if he was ;) |
| 10:05:28 | [Saint] | JdGordon can make even more noise than I can when he wants to ;) |
| 10:05:38 | nickp2 | sideral: design by committee? ;) |
| 10:05:49 | * | JdGordon is technically still at work and working |
| 10:06:42 | sideral | nickp2: In a sense, yes. Except that we don't listen to people who don't contribute. :) |
| 10:07:32 | Bagder | also, we don't listen to people who can't quote sufficiently big chunks from Monty Python's The Holy Grail |
| 10:07:56 | * | Bagder feels he's helping out a lot here |
| 10:08:09 | [Saint] | And we don't listen to people that have the opposing position to ourselves. |
| 10:08:15 | [Saint] | Saves time and effort :P |
| 10:08:17 | God_Eater | sideral: in a lot of cases we don't listen to people who *do* contribute either ;) |
| 10:08:26 | God_Eater | so it's all very fair |
| 10:08:28 | God_Eater | :D |
| 10:08:28 | JdGordon | pretty sure its just "we dont listen" |
| 10:08:32 | sideral | JdGordon: Alright, please take your time. I'll wait another day or two until I decide whether this will go in in one go or without the menu change |
| 10:08:39 | Bagder | we are all different! |
| 10:08:47 | sideral | :) |
| 10:08:53 | Bagder | ah, that was another movie |
| 10:08:56 | JdGordon | sideral: will you be online in a couple of hours? |
| 10:09:31 | [Saint] | sideral: Just to make it *absolutlely* clear, in case it has come off as anything different...I am *not* opposed to this going in incrementally. |
| 10:09:35 | sideral | yeah, but I won't have much time for arguing |
| 10:09:40 | [Saint] | ie. time first, then menu cleanup. |
| 10:09:43 | JdGordon | who's arguing? :) |
| 10:09:45 | sideral | Saint: understood |
| 10:10:21 | [Saint] | I apologise if its seemed that way, its never been my point of view. |
| 10:10:47 | sideral | nickp2: What do you think of my suggestion to pick up on Thomas Martitz's default-to-last-selection idea? |
| 10:11:38 | nickp2 | sideral: It's a good one, I'm sure no-one would object to seeing their last setting be sticky. |
| 10:11:56 | sideral | Glad you like it as well, nickp2 |
| 10:11:59 | nickp2 | sideral: after all, it's the way volume, tone etc behave. |
| 10:12:30 | sideral | right. An argument that I failed to think of before :) |
| 10:13:05 | [Saint] | s/argumeny/"point of discussion"/ ;) |
| 10:13:14 | [Saint] | arguments bring contention ;D |
| 10:14:06 | sideral | oops, thank you Saint :) |
| 10:14:09 | nickp2 | At this stage though, as long as the sleep timer starts when I turn the device on and I don't have to maintain the patch for another couple of years, anything sounds good ;) |
| 10:15:55 | sideral | JdGordon: In case you want to discuss the menu change more on the mailing list, can you do me a favor and change the subject line? |
| 10:16:10 | JdGordon | will do |
| 10:16:18 | sideral | thanks! |
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| 11:00 |
| 11:01:01 | kugelp | ah, what to do with the rest of the system menu is really a separate discussion |
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| 11:05:46 | JdGord | I'm making it this discussion |
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| 11:23:19 | * | kugelp probably couldn't disagree more with JdGordon's ideas in that mail |
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| 11:49:59 | JdGordon | imagine my surprise |
| 11:51:56 | n1s | I think it sounds reasonable although i'd like to keep the debug menu i think |
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| 12:00 |
| 12:04:53 | Torne | i don't like renaming settings to system |
| 12:05:08 | Torne | eliminating the top level system menu seems fine to me |
| 12:05:10 | God_Eater | nor me |
| 12:05:25 | Torne | and i don't see a problem with moving those things to be under settings without renaming it |
| 12:05:35 | Torne | (or eliminating them, if we decide they are useless) |
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| 12:29:45 | Llorean | I think the debug menu should be there for current builds, but disabled for release builds. |
| 12:31:26 | Llorean | I don't like getting rid of the top level "System" menu entirely, just because there are things in it that definitely aren't settings (Rockbox Info doesn't let you set anything). |
| 12:32:03 | Llorean | Instead I'd probably rename "System" to "Rockbox Info" and then refine how it presents the various information it does a little bit (after moving T&D) |
| 12:34:54 | Torne | Llorean: I don't think it matters that they aren't settings, tbh |
| 12:35:05 | Torne | the About menu option in most programs is also not help, really |
| 12:35:08 | * | Torne shrugs |
| 12:35:16 | Torne | people expect "that kind of thing" to be tucked away |
| 12:35:31 | Torne | and "the last option on the main menu which is called settings" seems reasonable as a place to find it |
| 12:37:14 | Llorean | Torne: I do agree about tucking them away, in general. But a few things in that menu are used pretty regularly by the blind folk. The current "Rockbox Info" is where they get their battery level spoken |
| 12:37:33 | Llorean | Which makes it nice to be fairly quick to get to after tapping the "menu" key. |
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| 12:50:02 | JdGordon | "settings" in the main menu is redundant if system and settings merge |
| 12:50:14 | JdGordon | all the current subitems in the settings menu alredy say settings |
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| 12:56:23 | JdGordon | and naming it settings makes the argument about weather something is a setting or not goes away |
| 12:57:29 | Torne | I seriously think it woudl be weird to have the top level menu not be called settings still |
| 12:57:37 | Torne | and i think people will be surprised and ask dumb questions about it |
| 12:57:49 | Torne | i don't see the need to have arguments about whether things are settings or not in the first place |
| 12:58:03 | Torne | i'm perfectly happy for things which are not strictly settings but are to do with the general system setup be in there |
| 12:58:06 | Torne | :) |
| 12:59:49 | JdGordon | I think users are stupid, but I'm pretty confident they wont get confused |
| 13:00 |
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| 13:03:07 | Llorean | Torne: Honestly, if it were completely up to me, I'd put "Rockbox Info" on its own in the context menu, move T&D to the system settings, and drop the "System" option in the main menu entirely, moving "Debug" to settings. |
| 13:05:19 | Torne | Llorean: i don't really have an opinion either way on putting rockbox info at the top level or not |
| 13:05:20 | JdGordon | hiding rockbox info in a context menu isnt such a good idea either |
| 13:06:02 | God_Eater | yeah, in what context would it show up? |
| 13:06:06 | Llorean | I'd "hide" it in every context menu. |
| 13:06:14 | Llorean | The one context you're always in is "Rockbox" |
| 13:06:31 | JdGordon | pardon? |
| 13:06:49 | Llorean | It's really more of a "Device Status" option than a "Rockbox Info" option for the most part. |
| 13:08:43 | n1s | i think putting it in a context menu would be weird |
| 13:09:00 | n1s | context menus are getting cluttered btw |
| 13:09:04 | Llorean | n1s: Yeah, I didn't expect people would agree with it. Just said if it were completely up to me. |
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| 13:10:08 | JdGordon | so, people are generally for merging the 2 menu items and we cant decide how? |
| 13:11:04 | Torne | sounds like a reaosnable summary :) |
| 13:11:12 | n1s | sure :) |
| 13:11:36 | JdGordon | half way there then :) |
| 13:12:48 | n1s | we should go for an icon menu with hard to interpret icons for everything! |
| 13:14:24 | JdGordon | working on it! |
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| 13:48:46 | JdGordon | root_menu.c is a bithc to work with :/ |
| 13:49:59 | God_Eater | yeah, all those sodding macros. I wonder which idiot put them in? |
| 13:51:32 | JdGordon | wtf were you lot tihnking giving *me* commit access all those years ago? |
| 13:51:38 | * | JdGordon cries at some of the code he's done |
| 13:52:44 | JdGordon | ok, one thing at a time... putting the current settings menu inside the system menu is by far the easiest change... is anyone else liking that idea? |
| 13:52:54 | JdGordon | or is it going to have to be move the items from system into settings? |
| 13:56:11 | kugelp | I don't necessarily agree with merging |
| 13:57:13 | kugelp | but I don't care hugely |
| 13:57:55 | kugelp | but I think this should be done after we are finished with the t&d issues |
| 13:58:44 | JdGordon | the only reason we are talking about it is because of that patch, and there is no reason we cant solve it before that patch |
| 14:00 |
| 14:04:25 | kugelp | except making up issues to make the life of the author even harder |
| 14:04:59 | JdGordon | http://pastebin.com/xcqynuMs is what I'd like to commit. just move settings into system and move playlist catalog up above resume playback |
| 14:05:06 | Llorean | Yeah, the sleep timer revisions can go in with or without moving the system menu. It shouldn't hold up the sleep timer patch. |
| 14:06:15 | JdGordon | moving the system items into settings is more work and imo not a good idea. Naming the combined item should be system, no settings |
| 14:06:48 | JdGordon | and wtf? this makes no difference to the sleep patch, all its settings go in t&d wherever it ends up |
| 14:07:31 | Llorean | What does moving playlist catalog have to do with any of these? |
| 14:08:24 | JdGordon | classic misdirection! |
| 14:09:03 | Llorean | Misdirection? |
| 14:09:44 | JdGordon | hat's what I said |
| 14:09:53 | Llorean | Could you explain, I have no idea what you're saying. |
| 14:10:13 | Llorean | Are you claiming I'm misdirecting, or are you answering my question that "misdirection" is its relation somehow, or... |
| 14:10:19 | | Quit ukleinek (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 14:10:34 | JdGordon | :) |
| 14:11:16 | JdGordon | arg, the manual fixes for this is going to be annoying |
| 14:11:43 | Llorean | Anyway, I don't think "Settings" should be hidden under the current system menu. That's sorta pointless and just creates an extra level of depth to every single setting someone could want to change. |
| 14:12:00 | JdGordon | rasher: do you still have your script(?) to automatically take screenshots? we are going to need a new main menu screenshot from every target whatever the outcome is |
| 14:12:03 | Llorean | The things in the system menu should be redistributed to other places, and the system menu inside the main menu should just vanish. |
| 14:12:40 | Llorean | You don't actually *gain* anything by moving "Settings" into System as a further submenu. |
| 14:12:44 | JdGordon | there is *no* other places.... |
| 14:13:40 | Llorean | Then talk about it and come up with some, rather than just doing random other things that aren't beneficial because you can't come up with a way to do something that is beneficial |
| 14:13:50 | Llorean | You don't *have* to change things. You can leave them as they are until a good idea is come up with. |
| 14:14:55 | JdGordon | the difference between you and I is that I don't just talk |
| 14:15:33 | Llorean | Ah yes, rather than actually justifying your changes, attack the people critical of them. |
| 14:15:58 | JdGordon | http://pastebin.com/SJAYftgZ is also an a version I could live with, move the settings *items* inside the system menu, order to be agreed on |
| 14:16:22 | Llorean | And see, that's better. That's something I'm less negative about, because it addresses some of my objections. Wow, that wasn't hard. |
| 14:16:37 | Llorean | Good job actually thinking about *why* someone might not like your idea, rather than just attacking them. |
| 14:17:14 | Llorean | JdGordon: So are you going to answer the question about why playlists were moved, or is that something you just refuse to talk about? |
| 14:17:29 | JdGordon | I told you, misdirection |
| 14:17:37 | Llorean | That's not an answer. It's a word, without even a context. |
| 14:17:46 | JdGordon | and if you read the email you'd see the answer |
| 14:18:56 | Llorean | That doesn't answer how it's "misdirection" |
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| 14:19:05 | Llorean | All that answers is that you think more targets have a button to do it than don't. |
| 14:19:44 | Llorean | Since that option's been there since *before* there were even targets that didn't have a button to do it, there should be more justification than "now that we have targets that don't have a button to resume playback, the menu option being more important should be moved further down" |
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| 14:22:26 | kugelp | JdGordon: don't rush this please |
| 14:22:28 | kugelp | your mail isn't even a day old |
| 14:23:23 | kugelp | and I object to swapping the completely unrelated items |
| 14:24:32 | Llorean | kugelp: Well, to one point, he could've made the topic "reorganize the main menu" and it'd make much more sense. |
| 14:24:52 | Llorean | In that context, switching them is worth discussing in the same patch as removing "system" |
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| 14:40:06 | | Join Topy [0] (~Topy44@f048204138.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:40:16 | * | Llorean thinks the order of the main menu should be discussed separately, especially since there are several ways to approach problems with it. |
| 14:41:46 | [Saint] | Can we just alphabetize it like I do with my builds? |
| 14:41:58 | Llorean | See, there's a different approach. |
| 14:42:00 | [Saint] | I honestly thing trying to guess what a user uses more often is silly. |
| 14:42:06 | [Saint] | but, that's contentious I know. |
| 14:42:15 | Llorean | One could also argue rather than prioritizing it from top to bottom, we could prioritize it by "distance from the starting point" since the menu wraps. |
| 14:42:36 | [Saint] | I just decided to alphabetize all my menus, to make it "sane" |
| 14:42:38 | [Saint] | works for me. |
| 14:42:50 | Llorean | Other than the main menu, alphabetizing it actually does seem best to me. |
| 14:43:05 | [Saint] | Yeah, sorry...I worded that incorrectly. |
| 14:43:13 | [Saint] | I didn't alphabetize the main menu. |
| 14:43:16 | JdGordon | [Saint]: programatically? or OCD? |
| 14:43:19 | [Saint] | only sub-menu items. |
| 14:43:30 | [Saint] | JdGordon: initially OCD. |
| 14:43:32 | Llorean | [Saint]: Well, this discussion is mainly about the main menu, apparently. |
| 14:43:38 | [Saint] | then, to make it easier for me to find things. |
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| 14:43:48 | [Saint] | I look at the menus and see *no* ordering. |
| 14:43:59 | [Saint] | initially I guess it was based on assumed usage. |
| 14:44:03 | Xerion | how about settings menus with an on/off setting and amount settings, the on/off on top is most logical imo ;) |
| 14:44:06 | [Saint] | that seems to gave slipped over the years. |
| 14:44:11 | Llorean | [Saint]: I think a lot of it is more just ordered by date added. |
| 14:44:14 | JdGordon | doin it alphebetically any way other than programatically is a non-starter as it only works for english |
| 14:44:19 | [Saint] | Llorean: yeah. |
| 14:44:52 | [Saint] | JdGordon: Well, the default is English...so, I don't really see a problem with that. |
| 14:45:03 | Llorean | JdGordon: That reminds me, do we even have a programmatical way to alphabetize non-English characters in our code? Or are they just sorted by the value of their character? |
| 14:45:06 | [Saint] | I see your point though. |
| 14:45:24 | [Saint] | its not going to be any *less* sanely ordered for other languages though ;) |
| 14:45:44 | JdGordon | I assume we do, strcmp presumably "works" for non-english... not very cleverly thouhg |
| 14:45:52 | Llorean | Ah. |
| 14:45:58 | Torne | Llorean: we just sort everything with C locale, basically |
| 14:46:10 | Torne | er |
| 14:46:22 | Torne | possibly casefolding |
| 14:46:26 | Torne | but not in any smart way :) |
| 14:46:37 | Torne | collation tables to even sort en_US "correctly" are massive |
| 14:46:41 | * | Llorean wonders if it'd be possible to to add a little intelligence for menu sorting into the language files. |
| 14:46:46 | Llorean | It wouldn't work for the file browser, of course. |
| 14:46:55 | Torne | since even for english collation includes many accented chars |
| 14:47:01 | [Saint] | I left the main menu "as-is" (this seems like it will change slightly), but sub-menus I ordered alphabetically. This, to me, seems like the "sane" option. For non-English languages the ordering isn't going to be any more or less arbitrarily placed, so I think it would be more of a win than a loss. |
| 14:47:12 | [Saint] | But I think I'm bike-shedding at the present. |
| 14:47:26 | [Saint] | Alphabetical (in English) menus is something I'd like to see though. |
| 14:47:48 | JdGordon | alphabetical is a non-starter |
| 14:47:49 | [Saint] | If you know what a setting is called, but not *quite* where it is, it makes finding things in deep menus a LOT easier. |
| 14:47:52 | n1s | i agree with JdGordon that if we go with alphabetical, we should do it programatically |
| 14:48:01 | Llorean | [Saint]: I think one of the bigger problems is the proliferation of submenus. Sometimes they make sense (all the equalizer settings are under equalizer) but other times they're a little harder to figure out (is what I want a "sound" or "playback" setting?) |
| 14:48:24 | Llorean | There's plenty of ambiguity around in general. |
| 14:48:51 | JdGordon | and plenty of talk... which as usual is going to go nowhere if people insist on doing all or nothing |
| 14:49:14 | [Saint] | I think, although I know we'll all probably end up regretting it at one point or another in the near future ;), that if we're going to shake up the menu, we might as well "do it right". |
| 14:49:14 | Xerion | yeah put replaygain under sound already, next to the other options affecting volume ;) |
| 14:49:25 | Llorean | Settings->General Settings->System->Limits is not the chain of logic I'd follow to figure out how to solve the max entries in file browser issues, for example. |
| 14:49:27 | [Saint] | And get soemthing functional we can all (at least to an extent) agree on. |
| 14:50:27 | JdGordon | "agree".... us... HAHAHAH |
| 14:50:43 | [Saint] | "(to an extent)" ;) |
| 14:50:48 | n1s | probalem is "right" differs a lot |
| 14:50:56 | [Saint] | I'm prepared to compromise... |
| 14:50:56 | Llorean | JdGordon: Well, *most* of us agreed Time & Date can be considered settings, at least to a practical degree. |
| 14:51:06 | [Saint] | n1s: this is true... |
| 14:51:30 | JdGordon | https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqzlOGMuRZ7OcDhCc2tLQVF4NlUzQmZ6M3FPVnZ5YkE&hl=en_US < from 4 years ago! |
| 14:51:39 | [Saint] | that's why I thought "Fuck it, the default lang is English UK, lets do it ordered alphabetically by English UK for all langs. |
| 14:51:42 | [Saint] | " |
| 14:52:11 | [Saint] | Other langs will just have a slightly different arbitrarily ordered menu structure ;) |
| 14:52:11 | n1s | [Saint]: which tbh sucks |
| 14:52:18 | Llorean | Someone should just flatten the entire list of settings and post it in an email, then start from scratch in organizing them rather than looking at trying to rearrange based of the existing layout. |
| 14:52:25 | [Saint] | n17ikh: why exactly? |
| 14:52:29 | [Saint] | bah. |
| 14:52:33 | [Saint] | * n1s |
| 14:52:49 | [Saint] | The ordering presently is...non-existent. |
| 14:52:56 | [Saint] | there may as well be *some* order to it. |
| 14:53:06 | * | Llorean thinks the categorization is more problematical than the ordering. |
| 14:53:07 | Xerion | just remove all the other languages, they are silly anyway ;) |
| 14:53:09 | [Saint] | even if it only really benefits one (the default) usergroup. |
| 14:53:10 | JdGordon | I agree... it is nice that we can say "3rd item from the top" regardless of language |
| 14:53:12 | n1s | [Saint]: i assuem you wouldn't propose such a chnage if you didn't use English... |
| 14:53:14 | Llorean | A list you can scroll through and see all the choices for that list. |
| 14:53:18 | Llorean | But if your choice isn't *in* that list, you're lost. |
| 14:53:46 | n1s | just changing the menus for everyone not using english arbitrarily will be annoying if they have learned where stuff is for example |
| 14:53:47 | Llorean | I do feel that the order shouldn't really change from language to language since, like JdGordon just mentioned, 3rd from the top is handy |
| 14:53:54 | [Saint] | n1s: I would, actualy...as English is the default. |
| 14:54:39 | [Saint] | n1s: And the menus sound like they're changing rather a lot anyway. |
| 14:54:48 | [Saint] | might as well get it "right" for one group. |
| 14:54:49 | JdGordon | alphabetical is a non-starter, enough no's to for sure get blocked so dont even bother wasting time discussing it |
| 14:54:57 | n1s | [Saint]: so you don't think that just jumbling the menus for everyone that is not is a problem? |
| 14:55:11 | [Saint] | they're already jumbled. |
| 14:55:19 | [Saint] | there's quite literally no ordering presently. |
| 14:55:20 | JdGordon | consistantly though |
| 14:55:31 | [Saint] | consistently jumbled? ;) |
| 14:55:35 | * | [Saint] likes this... |
| 14:55:36 | Llorean | Maybe we should just add some code that counts each time a menu item is highlighted and each time it's "clicked" on. |
| 14:55:42 | Llorean | Then get people to send us their logs. :-P |
| 14:55:49 | JdGordon | that opatch exists |
| 14:56:02 | [Saint] | Llorean: Menus that order based on individual usage would be nice. |
| 14:56:11 | n1s | [Saint]: but just jumbling them again makes it *worse* for people used to the particular jumble |
| 14:56:19 | Llorean | [Saint]: I wasn't thinking of ordering based on individual usage. Remember, I'm for static ordering. I was thinking to allow us to semi-optimize the over all order. |
| 14:57:03 | n1s | I would *rather* see full fricking customizable menus |
| 14:57:33 | JdGordon | fs#7809 |
| 14:57:35 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/7809 Gather statistics about menu usage (and, possibly, reorder menu items) (patches, closed) |
| 14:57:45 | [Saint] | Llorean: Yeah, when you mentioned that I thought of allowing a settign that ordered the menus based on preference, but also allowed for reverting to the default in case language gets changed and a user gets lost in the menus so we can say "click down three times, select the fourth option, select foo...etc. |
| 14:58:01 | [Saint] | That's almost certainly NOT going to happen, though ;) |
| 14:58:24 | Llorean | [Saint]: Well, it's also helpful if a blind user is having issues getting voice to work, or under other circumstances. |
| 14:58:35 | * | [Saint] nods. |
| 14:59:21 | JdGordon | rearraning the settings menus has nothing to do with the main menu patch I and sideral would rather discuss |
| 14:59:31 | [Saint] | I can't say how happy I am that enough people for it to actually matter are interested in shaking up the menu now...its been a long time coming IMO. |
| 14:59:38 | * | Llorean agrees with JdGordon that this is unrelated to the email topic. |
| 14:59:43 | [Saint] | some new users seem to REALLY hate our menu. |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:01 | Llorean | [Saint]: We've, as a group, been for rearranging the menu since before you probably ever heard of Rockbox. |
| 15:00:13 | Llorean | It's just ridiculously, ridiculously hard to actually accomplish, as a group |
| 15:00:36 | JdGordon | [Saint]: count the people talking now... its not even close to the amount of people needed to actually definitly have something done |
| 15:01:10 | Llorean | [Saint]: Someone once did an html/css mockup of the Rockbox menu structure so that one could quickly and easily preview layout changes, if I recall. |
| 15:01:10 | [Saint] | Llorean: Yeah, I know. I've followed (and tracked back) the discussions. I tried to shake the menu up ~2 years ago or so but couldn't get enough people interested in it. |
| 15:01:12 | JdGordon | really the only way this will happen is if someone says "im doing it, im not putting it up for discussion, im happy for contributions untill this date though" |
| 15:01:21 | Llorean | There's been a lot of interesting attempts at making it possible to discuss and "try" layouts. |
| 15:01:38 | [Saint] | JdGordon: That would be *begging* for a reversion comit. |
| 15:01:49 | [Saint] | there's no way that would be "the way to achieve this" |
| 15:01:51 | JdGordon | not necessarily |
| 15:02:07 | JdGordon | get enough commiters behind that subcommitee and it will be ok |
| 15:02:21 | JdGordon | put the final patch up for rsb vote |
| 15:02:35 | JdGordon | otherwise it will continue to never happen |
| 15:02:39 | Llorean | JdGordon: Yeah, I don't think that would work. Rather, I'd say, the only way it'd happen is if someone said "I'm going to accept suggestions from everyone, and then attempt to meet all their needs" and base all their work on other peoples' suggestions in a way that people realistically believe isn't them just trying to impose their personal desired menu on everyone else. |
| 15:03:07 | [Saint] | hence my problems with RaaA skin, "trying to please all". |
| 15:03:12 | [Saint] | It just *doesn't* work. |
| 15:03:17 | Llorean | JdGordon: An RSB vote and a subcommittee sounds very different from "I'm not putting it up for discussion, I'm doing it" |
| 15:03:24 | [Saint] | And takes months. (hospital not inclusive) |
| 15:04:12 | JdGordon | Llorean: indeed, rsb+comitte is a more democratic way to do it |
| 15:04:17 | Llorean | Yes. |
| 15:04:22 | [Saint] | Llorean: Yes, I agree. Initially it sounded like "fuck you guys...I'm doing it!". An RSB vote once there's a reasonable mockup for the suggested layout is much nicer. |
| 15:04:31 | Llorean | Agreed. |
| 15:04:35 | [Saint] | And a lot liess likely to be reverted on the spot :P |
| 15:05:18 | JdGordon | the rsb probably isnt even needed. they dont have the authority (by design) here |
| 15:05:26 | Llorean | Yeah, I don't think the RSB is needed. |
| 15:06:00 | JdGordon | getting the right people on the committee will be a fun job |
| 15:06:01 | JdGordon | anyone with strong ideas should be banned :) |
| 15:06:06 | JdGordon | (that precludes me also) |
| 15:06:06 | [Saint] | Doesn't the RSb have the ultimate authority over *everything* Rb related? |
| 15:06:17 | Llorean | [Saint]: Yes and no. |
| 15:06:19 | JdGordon | yes and no |
| 15:06:38 | [Saint] | heh, snap. |
| 15:06:54 | * | sideral thinks the time spent in this discussion would be better spent creating a customizable menu structure, configurable with a Lua script. |
| 15:06:54 | Llorean | [Saint]: The RSB really has the ultimate authority over arbitration. It shouldn't make decisions, but after one's been made if it causes a problem, they should fix it. |
| 15:06:57 | sideral | Then everyone could customize the menus at his own pleasure |
| 15:07:23 | sideral | No need to provide "sane" defaults, for someone's definition of sane :) |
| 15:07:32 | [Saint] | sideral: Even if that happens, there still needs to be a sane default. |
| 15:07:53 | [Saint] | as not everyong will *want* to customize the menu. |
| 15:08:10 | Llorean | [Saint]: When I was on it, I spent a lot of time trying to make sure arguments I wasn't involved in reached a compromise so that it was less likely to ever be needed. |
| 15:08:13 | [Saint] | So I don;t agree that costom ordering eliminates the need for a sane default menu. |
| 15:08:28 | sideral | that default could be the status quo, eliminating this discussion entirely |
| 15:08:31 | JdGordon | 3.10/4.0 is due october... that gives plenty of time for a committee to do its work |
| 15:09:00 | [Saint] | I was just thinking that this seems well timed for a nice new menu for the next release. |
| 15:09:10 | [Saint] | ...great minds, etc. ;) |
| 15:09:16 | Llorean | Like I said, I think a good starting point would just be to list every setting name in an email, and say "okay guys, categorize these" without looking at the existing menu structure at all. |
| 15:09:47 | Llorean | See how our community thinks options divide up. We don't have to treat is as a vote, just information gathering. |
| 15:09:47 | JdGordon | all 200+ of them :) |
| 15:10:21 | [Saint] | Close to 300 on some targets iirc. |
| 15:10:31 | [Saint] | I remember trying this once. |
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| 15:10:41 | [Saint] | It sounds a lot easier than it is... |
| 15:10:56 | [Saint] | its *really* daunting looking at all the menu items in one list. |
| 15:11:13 | [Saint] | Not impossible, but daunting. |
| 15:12:00 | * | JdGordon puts his hand up as eager to help if others do the same |
| 15:12:14 | * | [Saint] also. |
| 15:12:35 | [Saint] | A collaborative page on google docs would make this a LOT easier. |
| 15:12:52 | [Saint] | can se dump all the menu items to a list with some scripty magic? |
| 15:13:11 | [Saint] | s/we/someone more scripty than I ;)/ |
| 15:13:13 | JdGordon | that is partially doable thanks to gcc... /me did that once |
| 15:13:31 | JdGordon | Llorean: are you going to put your hand up too? |
| 15:13:47 | [Saint] | A few of us working on it at the one time could get it done in a reasonable period of time. |
| 15:14:00 | [Saint] | I couldn;t do it tonight, but tomorrow I'm free mostly all day. |
| 15:14:03 | Llorean | JdGordon: Sorry, I was over at the forums responding to something, gimme a sec to read what I missed. |
| 15:14:38 | * | [Saint] assumes pixelma will want to be involved in this, so pings her. |
| 15:15:02 | Llorean | JdGordon: Yeah, if we actually started with a goal to reorganize the menu structure, with a deadline for submissions, I'd do what I could to make sure I had my own proposed structure, as well as try to polish other ideas. |
| 15:15:09 | [Saint] | (I've heard her mention "missing out" on suck discussions, this is my effort to make sure that doesn't happen here) |
| 15:15:14 | [Saint] | *such |
| 15:15:18 | Llorean | So yes, my hand up. |
| 15:15:34 | JdGordon | no "own proposals" |
| 15:15:43 | JdGordon | everyone goes in with a clean slate |
| 15:16:09 | Llorean | I'm confused about what you want, then. |
| 15:16:45 | Llorean | Everyone's going to have their own opinion about how the menu layout should be. The goal should be then to reach a compromise on it. Clean slate or no, we're all going to have opinions. |
| 15:17:13 | JdGordon | yes, but not initially... everyone goes in with an open mind, first step is figure out the steps, next will be categorising each setting |
| 15:17:18 | [Saint] | Llorean: If I'm not mistaken, collaborating on a google docs list of all menu items, so we can see if we agree on classification. |
| 15:17:43 | Llorean | JdGordon: Yeah, I'll agree to keep my mind as open as possible. But there's things like, I think "longer lists are better than more categories" because categories are where you make an assumption on behalf of the user. |
| 15:17:50 | [Saint] | some menu items *are* indeed poorly placed. This needs to be addressed first. |
| 15:17:53 | Llorean | Other people think "lists should never be longer than 6 or so items, so they fit on most screens" |
| 15:17:54 | [Saint] | then ordering. |
| 15:18:09 | JdGordon | one thing at a time |
| 15:18:11 | [Saint] | Llorean: That's just simply not possible for some lists. |
| 15:18:19 | [Saint] | "Sound Settings" for example. |
| 15:18:35 | Llorean | [Saint]: Yeah, but the goal in some reorderings has been to, where possible, keep lists short. |
| 15:18:57 | Llorean | But yes, a strong first step is to collaborate on everyone saying what top level category, if any, they think a setting belongs in. |
| 15:19:00 | [Saint] | the only way we could do that sanely is dropping half of Rb's functions ;) |
| 15:19:05 | Llorean | Then we pound that out until we've got top level categories |
| 15:19:06 | JdGordon | though that said, we should figure out rules before we start, list lengths, positions of settings (enable/disable should always be above configuration details fr the setting perhaps) |
| 15:19:10 | Llorean | Then we discuss if we need subcategories. |
| 15:19:20 | Llorean | Then once we're out of subcategories, we hammer out ordering within each layer. |
| 15:20:07 | Llorean | JdGordon: I think list lengths can come later (since global categorizing is somewhat independent of it anyway). I do agree that enable/disable should always come before parameters. |
| 15:20:15 | * | JdGordon will start writing up a proposal for the mailing list |
| 15:20:31 | JdGordon | unless someone else wants to do that and I'll figure out how to nuke the code out of settings_menu.c |
| 15:20:50 | Llorean | I can post on the ML |
| 15:21:29 | JdGordon | just make it clear the final diff will go up for vote and people shold either get involved or stay out of the way |
| 15:22:03 | [Saint] | with a slight emphasis on that last part. |
| 15:22:11 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 15:22:19 | [Saint] | We don't want any "I didn't see it, and I disagree with X Y and Z" |
| 15:22:26 | JdGordon | people with "just change this" should stay away |
| 15:31:24 | Llorean | How's this look: http://pastebin.ca/2077868 |
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| 15:35:46 | JdGordon | some rough dates would be nice, it would be amazing if this could go to vote with enough time to get into the next release (force people to work on it) |
| 15:35:56 | Llorean | When's the next release? |
| 15:36:38 | [Saint] | ~2 months or so no? |
| 15:36:45 | [Saint] | ~1.5-ish |
| 15:36:46 | JdGordon | oct 17 is freeze |
| 15:37:10 | JdGordon | I doubt there would be objection to pushing that slightly to accomodate this though |
| 15:37:19 | gevaerts | hm, a new menu layout? Does that mean we need to go to 4.0? |
| 15:37:28 | [Saint] | definitely |
| 15:37:38 | JdGordon | gevaerts: a few of us think 4.0 is suitable anyway |
| 15:37:42 | [Saint] | its a "major change" if ever there was one. |
| 15:37:50 | JdGordon | all glory to the updated playback code |
| 15:37:58 | JdGordon | fixing voic+pause |
| 15:38:05 | [Saint] | And yeah, I think that the new playback engine deserves 4.0 anyway |
| 15:38:12 | [Saint] | with or without this new menu |
| 15:40:08 | Llorean | gevaerts: With new menus, I'm voting 4.0 for sure |
| 15:40:46 | Llorean | JdGordon: Okay, I added approximate timeline, with a clear stated goal of including it in the release, and an idea that we vote on a small team (3 or 5 people) at the start to arbitrate / make decisions at each deadline point to enforce that the thing moves forward. |
| 15:41:33 | God_Eater | presumably buflib will be in there by then too ? |
| 15:42:04 | Llorean | What's holding Android back right now, actually? |
| 15:42:31 | God_Eater | lack of a working build system |
| 15:42:37 | God_Eater | which we discussed at devcon |
| 15:42:42 | God_Eater | but which no-one has actually done any work on |
| 15:43:23 | God_Eater | I don't even recall now if we decided on a "rockbox signing key" which we distribute to everyone with a build client, or whether all builds are sent back to the master and re-signed there. |
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| 15:43:38 | God_Eater | I should probably read the write up I did :) |
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| 15:43:52 | JdGordon | I'd really want to see *many* commiters saying they are behind the commitee from the begining.... |
| 15:43:57 | JdGordon | or against the idea |
| 15:44:04 | kugel | [Saint]: didn't you want to get cabbie done? |
| 15:44:44 | [Saint] | I do, yeah...time and health has been an issue letely. |
| 15:44:52 | [Saint] | It's not like I've dropped my work. |
| 15:45:25 | [Saint] | Or...is there somethign else you're asking there? |
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| 15:45:31 | [Saint] | kugel: ^ |
| 15:45:44 | Llorean | God_Eater: Could we temporarily make rasher's daily builds "official" until that's done, as an expedient to actually releasing for it? |
| 15:46:02 | Llorean | Or was there strong objection to doing something like that. |
| 15:46:12 | kugel | [Saint]: just asking since you just offered help with this menu redesign thing because of free time :) |
| 15:46:19 | God_Eater | Llorean: we didn't discuss that at all |
| 15:46:28 | God_Eater | I'm not even sure rasher was doing daily builds when devcon happened |
| 15:46:33 | JdGordon | he wasnt |
| 15:46:34 | God_Eater | if he was - we didn't know! |
| 15:46:38 | Llorean | Or just making android always build on one server in the build system for the time being. |
| 15:46:45 | JdGordon | why the android talk now though? |
| 15:46:57 | God_Eater | it's worthy of 4.0 I presume? |
| 15:46:57 | Llorean | Basically, if the problem is different servers building them, only have one until we can solve that, and move on with getting the build out there to users. :) |
| 15:46:59 | [Saint] | kugel: yeah, but as long as its done from Google Docs I can do it from anywhere. |
| 15:47:08 | God_Eater | Llorean: well, it's not JUST that |
| 15:47:11 | Llorean | JdGordon: Yeah, if we're doing 4.0 now, I'd *really* also want to have Android for it. |
| 15:47:12 | God_Eater | but that is part of the problem |
| 15:47:16 | [Saint] | Cabbie work limits me to being at my home PC |
| 15:47:24 | Llorean | God_Eater: Yeah, but if it's part of the problem, it still needs to be addressed. :) Tackle one thing at a time. |
| 15:47:31 | God_Eater | the other problem is the build system needs adapting to handle the extra steps the android build needs |
| 15:47:34 | kugel | Llorean: nothing essentially. we discussed how to deal it many times, and always agreed on the same thing. it's just not implemented |
| 15:47:53 | JdGordon | Llorean: well, different people need working on that. I also dont see rockbox being released as making sense unless it goes on the market |
| 15:47:56 | | Quit JesusFreak316 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 15:48:06 | kugel | in fact, only the swedes can bring it further at this point (w.r.t. to market, downloadable current builds) |
| 15:48:11 | God_Eater | JdGordon: I think that's a waste of time |
| 15:48:21 | JdGordon | i agree |
| 15:48:52 | Llorean | I think it's "released" when we make it available as a "release" 4.0 .apk |
| 15:48:58 | Llorean | Which, there's no reason we couldn't put on the market. |
| 15:48:58 | God_Eater | we need some infrastructure people who aren't "the swedes" :) |
| 15:49:07 | kugel | God_Eater: wrong. the build system is doing android builds since the devcon |
| 15:49:19 | God_Eater | kugel: outrageous! Me? Wrong? :) |
| 15:49:26 | | Join JesusFreak316 [0] (~JesusFrea@USF-Wifi-35-45.laptops.usf.edu) |
| 15:49:34 | kugel | it's only the signing left, really |
| 15:49:47 | God_Eater | kugel: but that *would* need to go into the build system too right? |
| 15:49:47 | | Quit JesusFreak316 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 15:49:51 | God_Eater | however we decided to do it |
| 15:49:52 | kugel | and we mortail devs can't do anything if it's going to be signed on the build master |
| 15:50:05 | God_Eater | we can't do anything even if it's not |
| 15:50:09 | JdGordon | 196 settings in the e200-sim |
| 15:50:12 | God_Eater | because someone needs to get the rockbox master key generated |
| 15:50:33 | kugel | indeed |
| 15:51:07 | God_Eater | it's just unbelievable how lenient we all are on these swedes with their fancy "day jobs" |
| 15:51:16 | God_Eater | they should man up |
| 15:51:31 | | Join JesusFreak316 [0] (~JesusFrea@USF-Wifi-35-45.laptops.usf.edu) |
| 15:51:49 | God_Eater | why, only the other day, Bagder was galavanting round Stockholm in a helicopter. He could have used that time constructively! |
| 15:54:09 | JdGordon | B4gder: would it be possible to get logbot logging another channel and making that avilable like logs for here? |
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| 16:00 |
| 16:00:35 | | Quit antil33t| (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 16:04:55 | JdGordon | Llorean: [Saint] https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqzlOGMuRZ7OdGNvcFE4QUdOSENnX1JPVXFvMUFTaFE&hl=en_US <- output from settings_dumper on the e200-sim... need to merge it with the output from a grey/mono target, remote target, etc |
| 16:05:00 | JdGordon | not sure easiest way to do that |
| 16:05:23 | [Saint] | right, thanks. |
| 16:05:50 | [Saint] | I'm going to disappear shortly for an hour or so, but its logged...so I'll poke at it in my free time when I can. |
| 16:05:51 | Llorean | JdGordon: Maybe just dump from those, and then use diff to compare them? |
| 16:05:59 | God_Eater | shame it's in a google doc |
| 16:06:04 | God_Eater | I can't join in at work :( |
| 16:06:08 | Llorean | It's not the best way, but it'd at least be a quick way. |
| 16:06:13 | JdGordon | where is better God_Eater ? |
| 16:06:31 | God_Eater | I don't think there *is* somewhere you can put it where I can work on it collaboratively |
| 16:06:42 | God_Eater | they've pretty much blocked all those sorts of sites at work |
| 16:06:43 | God_Eater | nevermind |
| 16:06:44 | [Saint] | Noooooooo! don't change it! At least then I can work on it from my phone ;) |
| 16:06:49 | * | JdGordon loves his 45s builds on this laptop :) |
| 16:06:57 | God_Eater | I'll just have to remember to try to do some work on it at home |
| 16:07:14 | [Saint] | God_Eater: Download the Google Docs Android app :P |
| 16:07:37 | God_Eater | I have it |
| 16:07:40 | JdGordon | I should have used the h300-sim for the base |
| 16:07:43 | JdGordon | doing that now |
| 16:07:45 | God_Eater | but I'm buggered if I'm editting on my phone |
| 16:07:54 | * | Llorean would like people to also contribute to the "process" email, either by saying it's crap or by offering improvements or replacements for steps. |
| 16:08:00 | [Saint] | Its not ideal, bit it works for me. |
| 16:08:07 | God_Eater | gah - shouldn't have replied from work |
| 16:08:17 | God_Eater | keep forgetting the monster disclaimer signature addition |
| 16:11:24 | | Quit [Saint] (Quit: Imagination is for turbo-nerds who can't handle how kick-butt reality is. I'm a kick-butt reality master! I would rather die, than be imaginative. I mean that.) |
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| 16:31:08 | | Join lolmaus [0] (~lolmaus@178.236.241.96) |
| 16:31:57 | lolmaus | Hi. I would like to use a Cyrillic font. I've got one, but it seems only to be used in the menu. The Now Playing screen uses some other font. How do i change it? |
| 16:33:56 | JdGordon | you need to modify the skin |
| 16:34:14 | * | JdGordon gets the low-hangingfruit categorised |
| 16:36:40 | lolmaus | JdGordon, how do i do that? Maybe there are cyrillic themes already? |
| 16:37:58 | JdGordon | themes.rockbox.org might have some. otherwise figure out which theme you are using and edit the .rockbox/wps/<theme name>.wps file and look for a line with %Fl() |
| 16:42:31 | lolmaus | JdGordon, yay! |
| 16:43:27 | lolmaus | JdGordon, there are some parameters for %Fl... |
| 16:45:33 | JdGordon | change the one that loooks like the font name to the one you want |
| 16:45:39 | kugel | wtachi is a bit late with those patches, isn't he? |
| 16:50:24 | lolmaus | It worked! |
| 16:50:29 | * | lolmaus hugs JdGordon ^_____^ |
| 16:56:18 | lolmaus | What is the shortcut to return to WPS from the main menu? It's kinda inconvenient to browse for the WPS menu item |
| 16:56:45 | Llorean | It depends on your player, and should be in the manual. |
| 16:56:57 | lolmaus | I see |
| 16:57:15 | lolmaus | When browsing current playlist contents, is there a way to set a song play next after current? |
| 16:57:37 | Llorean | Reorder the playlist. |
| 16:57:56 | lolmaus | Llorean, that's kinda very inconvenient |
| 16:58:20 | Llorean | I don't understand what you're asking then. The playlist is, literally, the list of songs to play. |
| 16:58:25 | Llorean | In the order they will be played. |
| 16:58:58 | lolmaus | Llorean, i want to do it with a single menu item, not with moving the song all the way up manually |
| 16:59:06 | Llorean | You can view the file browser or whatever, and queue songs to be played next, or even set another playlist to play next. But they'll always also show up next in the playlist. |
| 16:59:23 | lolmaus | Also, i might not know where current position is: above or below |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:04 | Llorean | If you're just picking a single song to play next, just browse to it and choose "insert next", "queue next" or "play next" from the context menu depending on how you wish to have it treated. |
| 17:00:50 | lolmaus | Llorean, that applies to browsing files, but not playlist items. |
| 17:01:07 | Llorean | You can't have a song playable in the playlist that also can't be browsed to. |
| 17:01:11 | Llorean | Which is why I said you can just browse to it. |
| 17:01:22 | lolmaus | Oh |
| 17:01:49 | Llorean | The playlist list is about organizing the order of upcoming songs. |
| 17:02:07 | Llorean | If you want a song to play next, you put it next in the playlist, since that's what it is. |
| 17:02:21 | lolmaus | Llorean, how do i browse to a song from a playlist? I don't see a corresponding context menu item |
| 17:02:32 | Llorean | No, I just meant browse to it the normal way. |
| 17:02:38 | Llorean | Like, you do know where it is on your player, don't you? |
| 17:03:09 | lolmaus | Llorean, oh... But it's a lot of clicks. Is there a short way to browse to currently playing song at least? |
| 17:03:24 | Llorean | From the WPS, just click "select" if you have "follow playlist" enabled. |
| 17:04:35 | Torne | having a move to next seems reasonable, tbh :) |
| 17:04:49 | Torne | adding it to the playlist again is gonna get it played twice. |
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| 17:06:15 | lolmaus | Torne, ah! You see my point ^__^ |
| 17:06:20 | Llorean | Torne: Yeah, a quick way to rearrange the playlist would be handy. Basically offering the same insert "next, last, (no second word)" functionality but as "move" instead would cover it nicely |
| 17:06:30 | Llorean | lolmaus: What point? You were asking how to do it, not saying something should be changed. |
| 17:06:36 | | Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: .) |
| 17:06:46 | Llorean | If you want to make a suggestion, say it, don't try to hint at it while acting like you're seeking help. |
| 17:07:44 | | Quit Guest42589 (Quit: Ex-Chat) |
| 17:07:44 | lolmaus | Llorean, when i was asking i didn't know whether it was possible or not ;) |
| 17:07:59 | lolmaus | Llorean, wow, "follow playlist" IS VERY CONVENIENT, thank you! ^_^ |
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| 17:13:52 | lolmaus | Excuse me for my dumbness, but i can't find a shortcut to return to WPS from any menu. :( http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipplus/rockbox-build.html |
| 17:16:09 | Llorean | lolmaus: "Home + SelectIf there is an audio file playing, return to the While Playing Screen (WPS) without stopping playback." |
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| 17:18:04 | lolmaus | Llorean, it only works from the root of main menu. And it's impossible to be pressed with one hand. :( |
| 17:18:09 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:18:13 | | Part LinusN |
| 17:19:14 | Torne | unfortunately the clip is short on buttons |
| 17:19:44 | Llorean | lolmaus: It should work in the file browser, and most other setting menus too. |
| 17:19:54 | lolmaus | Well, there's a home button and it returns to the root of the main menu. I wish it returned to the WPS |
| 17:20:07 | Llorean | But the Clip+ is really short on buttons, and the typical button for returning to the WPS, Play/Pause, must be used for navigation instead. |
| 17:20:51 | Llorean | If the home button were used to return to the WPS it'd be a lot harder to get to the menus from the WPS, typically, whereas it'd only save a small amount of up/down movement (to select the resume playback option) in place |
| 17:21:42 | lolmaus | Llorean, Home and Off do same action — return to the main menu |
| 17:21:46 | Llorean | To be fair, if the first press returned to the main menu, and the second to the WPS, that could work, but I don't think anyone working on the port really considered that. |
| 17:21:51 | Llorean | lolmaus: No, they really don't. |
| 17:22:00 | Llorean | lolmaus: Off stops playback, Home returns to the main menu without stopping playback. |
| 17:22:09 | lolmaus | Oh |
| 17:22:51 | lolmaus | And after i press Off, Home+Select won't work. :/ |
| 17:23:16 | Llorean | Works fine on my Clip+ |
| 17:24:11 | lolmaus | Llorean, it only works if playback is going on. When stopped, it won't. |
| 17:24:26 | Llorean | As I said, it works fine on mine. |
| 17:24:37 | Llorean | You said "after off" which stops it, so that's what I just tried. |
| 17:25:05 | lolmaus | Llorean, you quoted the manual and it says that it only works when there's an audio file playing, and that's how my Clip+ behaves... |
| 17:26:05 | Llorean | It's not how my clip+ behaves. |
| 17:26:28 | Llorean | Though mine's a little older build, so if they changed it I may have missed it. And objected to it if I'd spotted it. |
| 17:26:38 | Llorean | Since that's not how other targets treat the resume playback feature. |
| 17:27:19 | lolmaus | Thank you for your support Llorean |
| 17:31:04 | lolmaus | My Clip+ battery seems to last longer after being rockboxed. Is that an illusion or Rockbox really saves battery? |
| 17:31:12 | Llorean | On many players Rockbox does save battery |
| 17:31:39 | Llorean | I really don't know if the Clip+ is one of them (I never used it without Rockbox, for example) but it wouldn't be surprising. |
| 17:36:36 | Torne | as long as we have sufficient knowledge about the hardware to manage teh clock speed and turn unused peripherals off (which is not the case on everything) then we are usually more efficient; our codecs are generally better :) |
| 17:37:48 | * | lolmaus has made a $10 donation to Rockbox ^_^ |
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| 17:53:46 | lolmaus | Llorean, seems that Home+Select won't work on my device at all! But on the WPS it works flawlessly (to lock the buttons) |
| 17:53:53 | | Quit n1s (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 17:55:21 | Llorean | lolmaus: Try pressing and shortly holding home slightly before select, rather than trying to time them simultaneously. I found that's more reliable for me. |
| 17:56:05 | [Saint_AndChat] | That's actually the way it works. |
| 17:56:34 | lolmaus | Llorean, if i press them simultaneously, nothing happens. If i press home prior to select (even with a very short pause), it returns to main menu. |
| 17:56:35 | [Saint_AndChat] | Pressing both ay *exactly* the same time will fail. |
| 17:56:43 | [Saint_AndChat] | *at |
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| 17:56:59 | Llorean | lolmaus: I mean hold home, and then quickly press select while holding home, while in the main menu |
| 17:57:05 | lolmaus | Pressing both at the same time works great for locking the buttons from the WPS. |
| 17:57:17 | [Saint_AndChat] | Its specificly set up this way in the keymap. |
| 17:57:44 | lolmaus | Llorean, oh it works from the main menu. But it won't work from a submenu. |
| 17:58:08 | [Saint_AndChat] | One key needs to be pressed slightly before the other otherwise hotkey is almost impossible to use. |
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| 18:06:31 | lolmaus | Bye, thx for support |
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| 20:37:40 | kugel | gevaerts: it's not clear how much time I have over the next few days, so it's perhaps better to not commit just yet (?) |
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| 20:43:19 | CIA-14 | New commit by kugel (r30342): Fix FS #12239, data abort after going from FMS to WPS. ... |
| 20:45:43 | CIA-14 | r30342 build result: All green |
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| 20:57:32 | tronse | hello guys |
| 20:57:48 | tronse | another question if i may |
| 20:57:55 | | Quit simonlnu (Quit: .) |
| 20:59:12 | tronse | on my clip+ when i turn it on it comes up with the rockbox logo and above its says loading firmware, file not found |
| 20:59:29 | tronse | how can i get rid of this and start again? |
| 21:00 |
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| 21:10:11 | bluebroth3r | does it say something about rockbox.sansa not found? |
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| 21:17:19 | tronse | hello again bluebrother |
| 21:18:26 | tronse | it just says "loading firmware" and then it says "file not found" above the rockbox logo |
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| 21:23:56 | bluebroth3r | hmm. |
| 21:24:26 | bluebroth3r | have you checked for the .rockbox folder on the player along with a file rockbox.sansa inside of it? |
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| 21:33:24 | tronse | ok just had a look and theres no .rockbox folder in the player |
| 21:33:45 | tronse | nor is there a file called rockbox.sansa |
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| 22:02:42 | wodz | Ladies and gentelmen we have a sound! I am pleased to announce that I managed to play our lame128 test file on noname rk2705 based DAP. The playback is choppy like a hell and I have to find out why :-) |
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| 22:04:02 | bluebroth3r | tronse: then you should install a Rockbox build ;-) |
| 22:04:11 | Buschel | wodz: \o/ |
| 22:04:29 | gevaerts | wodz: congratulations! |
| 22:05:00 | * | gevaerts thinks that this DAP shows good sense if it tries to shred that track to bits :) |
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| 23:05:17 | jhMikeS | isn't that one petur's recordings? it sounds similar to one. |
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| 23:08:18 | fml | He-he! A fragment from wps.c: static void update_non_static(void) :-) |
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| 23:08:36 | fml | Is it static or is it not? |
| 23:08:41 | jhMikeS | har |
| 23:09:34 | wodz | this static thing is a good candidate for golden quote |
| 23:09:57 | jhMikeS | there onto my trail of hidden oxymorons |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).