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| 00:14:42 | EvanCarroll | the fuze has a detachable screen |
| 00:14:53 | EvanCarroll | you can replace it fairly easily |
| 00:17:51 | fredreichbier | EvanCarroll, really? but well, i would need a replacement screen :D |
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| 00:20:03 | EvanCarroll | you can get a 2gb fuze v2 for like 10.00 |
| 00:20:07 | EvanCarroll | backup body too |
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| 00:35:28 | fredreichbier | EvanCarroll, sounds like an idea! thanks, will think abozut it! |
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| 00:36:56 | fredreichbier | thank you all! good night |
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| 06:41:51 | [Saint] | kugel: A little late perhaps...but, how? |
| 06:42:21 | [Saint] | The fact that you *can* create .nomedia from within RaaA doesn't mean (IMO) thaat one *should* have to. |
| 06:42:27 | [Saint] | It should just be there. |
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| 06:51:25 | Topic | "3.9.1 released! | Please read before speaking: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IrcGuidelines | Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community | This channel is logged at http://www.rockbox.org/irc" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
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| 07:52:29 | Llorean | [Saint]: I imagine because .nomedia can contain anything he was thinking about something like just creating an empty playlist named it, or something. |
| 07:54:02 | * | [Saint] isn't sure that .nomedia.m3u(8) would work... |
| 07:54:26 | [Saint] | Oh...I guess it could be renamed an the extension stripped, though. |
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| 08:14:11 | * | [Saint] frowns at http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,28799.msg184445.html#msg184445 |
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| 08:15:28 | [Saint] | BEcause he worked hard. |
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| 08:54:28 | ukleinek | JdGordon: I wonder if you have "ipoo" in your forum signature on purpose |
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| 08:54:54 | JdGordon | i most certainly do! |
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| 09:00:38 | wodz | ukleinek: how is bootloader dump going? |
| 09:01:50 | ukleinek | wodz: good morning. I got sidetracked yesterday evening, up to now I only saw the dram init block. |
| 09:02:32 | wodz | ukleinek: could you share it? I would like to compare it to what I have |
| 09:02:34 | God_Eater | has there been any movement on Torne's plan? |
| 09:02:49 | ukleinek | wodz: I can provide you blocks 4 to 23, havn't decrypted them yet |
| 09:03:02 | ukleinek | wodz: one sed |
| 09:03:06 | ukleinek | s/d/c/ |
| 09:03:06 | JdGordon | God_Eater: give him a few min to breath aye? :) |
| 09:03:28 | God_Eater | JdGordon: as I understand it, the onus isn't on him currently ;) |
| 09:03:41 | God_Eater | he's written the plan, he needs our swedish overlords input now |
| 09:03:49 | JdGordon | thats how i understand it also :) |
| 09:03:58 | wodz | 4 contains s1 so this is very interesting. Others are not so unless you merge them into final binary (as this is rather boring process :-)) |
| 09:04:29 | God_Eater | although I think I can probably help with step 1 too |
| 09:04:39 | God_Eater | if anyone needs me to |
| 09:05:00 | Zagor | Notice! I'm upgrading the web server. Everyone on cgiirc will be temporarily disconnected. |
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| 09:05:34 | God_Eater | \o/ |
| 09:06:30 | ukleinek | wodz: they are now at the usual place, named flash0_${firstblock}_${lastblock} and contain data + spare |
| 09:06:31 | wodz | I think the most crucial part now is to prepare documentation |
| 09:07:05 | wodz | ukleinek: this are raw dumps or decrypted? |
| 09:07:47 | wodz | So basicaly we need to start work on 4) from Torne's plan. |
| 09:08:04 | ukleinek | wodz: raw |
| 09:08:13 | JdGordon | my guess is alot of 3) can be done before the move also |
| 09:08:17 | wodz | ok |
| 09:08:21 | JdGordon | not commited, but done |
| 09:08:41 | God_Eater | JdGordon: well volunteered that man |
| 09:08:43 | God_Eater | get to work |
| 09:08:51 | God_Eater | you just became Mr. Someone. |
| 09:09:19 | * | God_Eater volunteers [Saint] for the theming work |
| 09:09:32 | JdGordon | err... I'm sure there are script monkeys who want to help :) |
| 09:09:47 | [Saint] | *what* themeing work? |
| 09:10:02 | [Saint] | themeing? theming? |
| 09:10:07 | Zagor | I think most of 3) lands on me |
| 09:10:07 | JdGordon | themeing gerrit |
| 09:10:07 | [Saint] | bah... |
| 09:10:11 | God_Eater | see Torne's email to the dev list |
| 09:10:35 | JdGordon | Zagor: isnt it mostly s/svn/git/ ? |
| 09:10:46 | JdGordon | just changing commands? |
| 09:11:27 | God_Eater | spoken like a true git novice =/ |
| 09:12:01 | Zagor | I expect it to be a little more. but I absolutely am accepting help. |
| 09:12:14 | * | God_Eater shoves JdGordon in the back again |
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| 09:13:23 | Zagor | for instance, the build system is designed around a number revision number... |
| 09:13:31 | Zagor | *numeric |
| 09:13:55 | God_Eater | is there anything we can do with git metadata to make that a bit less painful? |
| 09:14:28 | [Saint] | there's not exactly a heck of a lot of work to do "themeing" gerrit...what, like 2 shades of blue (the website's blue right?) and throw a logo up. done ;) |
| 09:14:42 | * | [Saint] squints. |
| 09:14:43 | Zagor | nah, I'll just tweak it to support a proper string instead. it doesn't actually parse the value much. |
| 09:14:48 | [Saint] | Yeah...looks blue to me. |
| 09:15:03 | wodz | ukleinek: s1 from your player differs from any s1's I have collected so far. I'll need to look in dissasm to see what's the difference |
| 09:16:00 | God_Eater | Zagor: "is the revision reference different from the previous one? If yes, rebuild" ? |
| 09:16:23 | Zagor | not even that, it builds whatever you send it |
| 09:16:29 | ukleinek | Zagor: you can use git rev-list HEAD | wc -l |
| 09:16:45 | JdGordon | git pull origin; git check <hash>; build |
| 09:16:50 | JdGordon | wheres the issue? :) |
| 09:17:00 | God_Eater | JdGordon: see? You're mostly done ;) |
| 09:17:35 | JdGordon | ah, you're in managment are you? |
| 09:17:57 | JdGordon | I could swear the pm's here dont actually *do* anything |
| 09:18:19 | God_Eater | hehehe |
| 09:18:19 | God_Eater | no |
| 09:18:21 | God_Eater | not management |
| 09:18:29 | God_Eater | but I know how it's done |
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| 09:34:31 | B4gder | I'm not doing much rockbox dev these days personally so I won't speak up about this much, but requiring review before push seems like a new layer of bureaucracy we're not used to having and I don't see the need for it |
| 09:35:14 | B4gder | from existing experienced committers I mean |
| 09:35:37 | [Saint] | It stops controversial or "ninja" commits. |
| 09:35:49 | B4gder | yes, it also stops all other quick commits |
| 09:36:36 | wodz | I expressed my feeling in mail, while this may be ok for general rb work what will be the added value when working on new port? |
| 09:36:47 | [Saint] | A small price to pay to ensure a developer can't just do "Ah fuck it, I want this so its going in even though I know its controversial" |
| 09:36:55 | [Saint] | of course...then that could just be reverted. |
| 09:36:56 | B4gder | I agree with you wodz, but I wouldn't want it as a rule for "normal" either |
| 09:37:26 | * | Llorean thinks it's surprising that one of the people who complains most about things being "slow" wants to add that layer. |
| 09:37:36 | wodz | B4gder: me too, but I can see some benefits at least |
| 09:37:38 | B4gder | it'll just make committers more annoyed when nobody has reviewed it in a while and the queue piles up |
| 09:37:59 | B4gder | then all of a sudden we have a review-queue problem |
| 09:38:30 | Llorean | I think ninja commits aren't typically a problem. |
| 09:38:33 | B4gder | imho, it's a fix for a problem we don't have |
| 09:39:00 | Llorean | There have been occasions where there's been a reversion. And one or two threats of "if you don't do it my way, I'll make other changes" and such. But over all, most people knowing that their commit could be reverted will try to talk it through first. |
| 09:39:02 | [Saint] | Llorean: Only becasue the pre-discussion has created a hugle flamewar first ;) |
| 09:39:03 | wodz | anyway thats for revert is |
| 09:39:09 | [Saint] | if they stopped discussing... |
| 09:39:25 | God_Eater | it's a pointless thing to enforce in my opinion |
| 09:39:44 | God_Eater | if you have a patch you think *needs* review, then submit it to the gerrit review queue yourself |
| 09:39:51 | God_Eater | you don't *have* to commit directly to master |
| 09:39:59 | B4gder | exactly |
| 09:40:07 | Llorean | I don't think there's any gain from *forcing* review. |
| 09:40:11 | God_Eater | but forcing review of all commits is stupid |
| 09:41:09 | Llorean | Though if it were finer grained, such as "forcing review to all files outside this folder" for something like brand new committers who are brought in to work on, say, a new port, that's different. That could be discussed, I think. |
| 09:41:15 | Llorean | I still think, though, that that would show a lack of trust. |
| 09:41:20 | wodz | agreed |
| 09:42:01 | Llorean | You give someone commit access if you trust them. If you stop trusting them to use commit access responsibly, you take it away. If they're irresponsible, they should just submit patches. That *is* the forced review process. |
| 09:42:17 | [Saint] | Yes, even for regular committers. Its still possible they may fuck something up that someone else will notice easily. |
| 09:42:37 | [Saint] | Perhaps we wouldn't have bootloaders in SVN that brick devices if this happened earlier. |
| 09:42:46 | [Saint] | bootloader(s)? |
| 09:43:40 | God_Eater | [Saint]: I'm completely against *enforced* review for people who are already trusted committers. |
| 09:43:49 | God_Eater | those people get commit access for a reason |
| 09:43:59 | [Saint] | I don't see the review as a bad thing, as I think that there _should_ be enough people around for the review process to take a trivial time. |
| 09:44:09 | * | Llorean wasn't aware we had bootloaders that brick devices. |
| 09:44:09 | God_Eater | I trust them to know *if* they think something they're commiting needs review or not |
| 09:44:24 | wodz | I see only one true potential benefit. One can imagine that uploaded patches in gerrit gets automatically applied in branch and proofed to compile on all targets. |
| 09:44:33 | God_Eater | Llorean: H300 bootloader has been unusable for about 2 years now. |
| 09:44:42 | [Saint] | Llorean: there certainly are. "bootloader" I think, though. |
| 09:44:45 | God_Eater | (if you build from source that is) |
| 09:44:53 | God_Eater | the ones we have for download are fine of course |
| 09:45:02 | Llorean | God_Eater: Yeah, if you build from source. But we have a tagged good revision. |
| 09:45:11 | * | God_Eater just said that ;) |
| 09:45:42 | Llorean | Wouldn't it be somewhat crazy to reflash an H300 for every change that *might* affect the bootloader? We've got, what, one or two people who can do that safely? |
| 09:45:43 | God_Eater | [Saint]: the point there though is just reviewing the patch that caused that wouldn't tell you it was okay to flash |
| 09:45:53 | [Saint] | My point was...*perhaps* (not definitely) that might not be the case if a review system was in place. |
| 09:45:53 | God_Eater | Llorean: only one I believe |
| 09:45:59 | God_Eater | and he's still too busy to really get involved. |
| 09:46:06 | [Saint] | that must have been a "trusted" committer that broke this, no? |
| 09:46:08 | God_Eater | [Saint]: there *is* a review system in place |
| 09:46:24 | God_Eater | it's just not enforced, and I don't want it enforced. |
| 09:46:56 | Llorean | [Saint]: I seriously doubt anyone would've caught it in advance without flashing every revision along the way, given how much time was spent on it and past devcons without being able to fix it. |
| 09:47:33 | God_Eater | [Saint]: it was completely impossible to tell it was going to brick a device. And only a trusted committer found out it did. |
| 09:47:52 | God_Eater | and we *still* don't know which revision broke it |
| 09:48:10 | wodz | the problem with h300 bootloader seems to be that binary size increase caused to cross some magic border. This something you cannot catch by patch review |
| 09:48:19 | God_Eater | exactly |
| 09:48:53 | wodz | gevaerts: got my TBLCF BDM pod so start bugging him :-) |
| 09:49:51 | gevaerts | wodz: LinusN has my irivers now to make them BDM-ready, so I have an excuse :) |
| 09:49:53 | [Saint] | Well, I'm by no means saying I don't understand why its contentious. I do. Nothing changes for me, anything I want committed needs to be reviewed at this point, and that won't change for me...so, yeah, I can see why its upsetting. |
| 09:50:00 | Llorean | All a review phase would do would be to share the blame when some bad commit came through |
| 09:50:19 | Llorean | Making people timid to commit things outside their area of expertise, making it *harder* for people working on less popular bits. |
| 09:50:49 | God_Eater | the number of "bad commits" we've had over the project lifecycle..... why, I can't think of more than about 3. |
| 09:50:58 | God_Eater | this would be a complete waste of time imo |
| 09:51:16 | Llorean | It doesn't make accidental bad commits much less likely. They're very, very rare as it is, and wouldn't be reduced without on-device testing and that would slow things down dramatically. |
| 09:51:33 | Llorean | It does make intentional bad/contentious commits less likely. Those aren't going to happen anyway with trusted people. |
| 09:51:34 | wodz | gevaerts: oh, come on soldering to sockets is not an excuse |
| 09:51:40 | [Saint] | I think the point is that it gives people the opportunity to say "hey, there's a better way to do this", is it not? |
| 09:51:44 | * | God_Eater proposes we forget JdGordon's silli suggestion and just move on. |
| 09:51:46 | Llorean | It does make *good* commits more of a headache though. |
| 09:52:12 | God_Eater | [Saint]: no it doesn't - it would encourage exactly the opposite. |
| 09:52:21 | God_Eater | People would get blase about the review system |
| 09:52:41 | [Saint] | If they reject it from the beginning...yeah, I guess. |
| 09:52:45 | God_Eater | or we'd end up in an even WORSE situation of patch rot than we're in now with flyspray. |
| 09:52:47 | wodz | I guess the proposition whas cause because Jd often asks for test/review and nobody cares really. |
| 09:53:11 | Llorean | He said on the thread that review wouldn't even be necessary. |
| 09:53:22 | Llorean | Which basically makes it a blame-sharing system rather than a review system. |
| 09:53:23 | God_Eater | which makes the whole thing pointless |
| 09:53:52 | Zagor | wodz: that is an issue we should try to address, but not by enforcing review |
| 09:54:51 | God_Eater | I find it hysterical that it's Jd that asks for this, since even when he *gets* his review, if the result isn't favourable to what he wants to achieve, he loses his rag |
| 09:55:17 | wodz | Zagor: agreed - the only solution I see is to force Saint to 'speak' C fluently |
| 09:55:24 | Llorean | God_Eater: I was figuring out how to diplomatically say "Does he really think forcing someone to commit his stuff for him is going to get *more* of his stuff in?" |
| 09:55:27 | gevaerts | wodz: maybe it isn't, but right now that doesn't really matter since the stuff isn't at my place |
| 09:55:29 | | Quit Keripo1 (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 09:55:34 | God_Eater | Llorean: hahahaha |
| 09:55:46 | God_Eater | I hadn't considered that point |
| 09:56:18 | [Saint] | wodz: ;) |
| 09:57:41 | [Saint] | WHen he asks me for review, its never about the code (maybe if tags are sane, or could be better), but rather about "Can I manage to break his new toy with unexpected syntax" |
| 09:59:38 | God_Eater | [Saint]: of course that's about the code |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:01 | God_Eater | it might not be asking you to check his pointer arithmetic personally, but you're still reviewing the functionality he's attempting to implement. |
| 10:02:57 | | Nick Rob2222 is now known as Rob2223 (~Miranda@p4FFF2A7F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:04:22 | God_Eater | so far, as usual, JdGordon seems to be in a minority of one. |
| 10:08:39 | wodz | Zagor: any plans to allow testing patches on buildfarm? |
| 10:09:09 | Zagor | nothing more than discussions, no |
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| 10:11:33 | JdGord | Llorean you fucking moron, requiring a shipit would make controversial changes harder to get in |
| 10:11:44 | | Quit JdGord (Client Quit) |
| 10:13:11 | Llorean | Eloquent and civil as always, that man. |
| 10:14:36 | Llorean | For the record, I've explicitly said that while a change may be controversial, it's still up to the committer to make the decision whether or not to override objections and commit. I've told him directly that he should feel free to ignore my objections if he's sure they're invalid on multiple occasions. |
| 10:15:17 | Llorean | That's why I'm in favor of not having the forced review. Whether or not I agree with all commits, I think that as long as someone has commit access, they have a right to the final decision on their work's commit. |
| 10:15:20 | B4gder | I really don't think that attitude and language is acceptable |
| 10:15:22 | God_Eater | JdGordon is getting too offensive recently. Seriously needs to wind his neck in. |
| 10:16:14 | wodz | anyway speculating that "Does he really think forcing someone to commit his stuff for him is going to get *more* of his stuff in?" is a bit unfair in the context of this discussion |
| 10:16:27 | n1s | while i'm not much in favour of forced reviews it might be interesting to test them and see what happens |
| 10:16:59 | [Saint] | wodz: I *think* that was where the objection came from. |
| 10:17:09 | [Saint] | I would have probably taken that rather badly also. |
| 10:17:22 | [Saint] | (regardless of its intent) |
| 10:18:07 | Llorean | It's a mathematical certainty though. If you add in another step at which something can be rejected, more stuff will be rejected. You certainly can't *increase* the commit rate by adding a step that can only reduce it. |
| 10:18:40 | wodz | Llorean: so why the hell you said something like quoted above? |
| 10:18:51 | [Saint] | Did anyone suggest it would be increased? |
| 10:18:53 | Llorean | Given that his view on Rockbox development is that A) It's too slow, and B) things keep getting in his way to including stuff, adding *another* thing isn't very wise from that perspective. |
| 10:19:45 | Llorean | [Saint]: No. My point was simply that he's going contrary to his normal perspective on 'problems with Rockbox development' |
| 10:19:53 | Llorean | I really don't see how saying "that's not his normal tune on the issue" is offensive at all. |
| 10:20:08 | [Saint] | ...which is why it was really big of him to be the one to suggest such a thing. |
| 10:20:09 | wodz | Llorean: the point is that your statement sounds a bit offensive - regardless of how he behave |
| 10:21:41 | wodz | It's the matter of wording probably |
| 10:22:04 | Llorean | [Saint]: Yes, and when I went contrary to my perceived view, and suggested in the email that it's bad, he responded by calling me a moron. And yet I'm getting lectured? |
| 10:22:28 | [Saint] | You are? |
| 10:22:39 | Llorean | You're both complaining about what I said far more than you've complained about what he said. |
| 10:22:42 | God_Eater | yes, by you and wodz |
| 10:22:43 | Llorean | It certainly feels like a lecture. |
| 10:23:26 | [Saint] | I was simply stating how it could be percieved, as I'm pretty sure wodz is also. I don't claim to agree or disagree. |
| 10:23:30 | God_Eater | looks like one too from where I'm standing |
| 10:24:09 | God_Eater | I don't really care how it could be perceived, Llorean didn't use offensive language. |
| 10:24:21 | God_Eater | JdGordon did. Unacceptable. |
| 10:24:25 | wodz | Jd reaction is unacceptable, period. That doesn't mean that I percive Your statement (Llorean) as polite |
| 10:24:32 | [Saint] | I was just saying "this is why I think X happened", I don't think X was necessarily the right way to react. |
| 10:25:02 | | Quit stripwax (Quit: http://miranda-im.org) |
| 10:25:26 | Llorean | wodz: Given JdGordon's nearly-constantly antagonistic behaviour toward me these days, I think most people would consider a light chuckle in his direction from me in response to someone else's similar comment to him "not particularly bad" |
| 10:26:57 | wodz | this discussion is pointless - you wan't take into consideration that your statement sounds unfair. |
| 10:27:15 | wodz | regarding Jd reaction I expressed my opinion. |
| 10:27:36 | God_Eater | wodz: I'm pretty sure Llorean did just take that into consideration. |
| 10:27:59 | Llorean | I admit my statement wasn't wholly respectful. |
| 10:28:08 | Llorean | It doesn't change the fact that I really think it wasn't particularly bad. |
| 10:28:40 | wodz | thats the point where we have different view, lets left this behind now |
| 10:28:57 | [Saint] | We've probably all blown up when taking something as it wasn't intended. Some just have smaller fuses I guess. |
| 10:29:02 | [Saint] | I know mine is short. |
| 10:29:52 | God_Eater | I think the pair of you are off your heads. JdGordon has *repeatedly* sworn at, and insulted Llorean over the past few weeks, and you're giving Llorean a hard time over a light jab back in his direction? |
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| 10:31:00 | [Saint] | Fwiw, I didn't mean to sound as I was lecturing Llorean at all. Nor do I personally feel as though I was. I was merely trying to offer an explanation as to why that particular reaction may have happened. |
| 10:31:06 | [Saint] | Whether it was jsutified or not. |
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| 10:32:09 | [Saint] | Llorean should know what its like to "get a hard time" from me by now, and this isn't it ;) |
| 10:32:23 | Llorean | I figured the response was to my email, considering the topic of it, and that he wasn't in here at the time but probably saw the email. |
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| 10:36:42 | wodz | God_Eater: Didn't I expressed my view of Jd reaction explicitly? I'll express it once more - its unacceptable. Jd proposed something, which we all agreed, will make controversial changes *harder* to get in. Now presenting this proposition as a sneaky way to pushing controversial changes is unfair at best. |
| 10:37:31 | Llorean | I don't think I suggested that at all. |
| 10:38:01 | God_Eater | no you didn't |
| 10:38:05 | God_Eater | it's far from sneaky |
| 10:38:37 | Llorean | I don't think I suggested there was an sneaking either. What I meant to suggest is "he typically claims it's a problem that things are slow to get in, but now he's advocating a process explicitly designed to slow this down. I find this situation humorous." |
| 10:38:39 | kugel | FWIW, I'm also very much against forced review |
| 10:39:08 | kugel | it'll serve nothing, but make review pointless by making it even more annoying than it's now |
| 10:39:15 | God_Eater | and that's exactly how I interpreted it Llorean |
| 10:39:41 | Llorean | God_Eater: Good to know. |
| 10:40:07 | Llorean | I definitely did not mean to suggest or imply *any* wrongdoing on his part in regard to that statement. |
| 10:40:17 | kugel | I'm also surprised about JdGordon's proposal. Not surprised about the proposal itself (I think many of us had a mind-experiment wit that) but that he made it |
| 10:40:17 | God_Eater | I don't see how wodz interprets it differently to be honest. |
| 10:40:26 | Llorean | If I want to accuse someone of wrongdoing, I'll do it explicitly and seriously. Not with a joke. |
| 10:41:32 | kugel | and tbh I think his intent is to share responsibility for controversial things |
| 10:41:39 | wodz | My view is probably caused by the fact that english is not my native language. In polish such construction sounds cynically and offensive. |
| 10:41:47 | kugel | (blame-share as someone called it earler) |
| 10:42:37 | kugel | so JdGordon could've pointed at someone else if his main menu change got in |
| 10:42:39 | God_Eater | kugel: I don't really see how *enforcing* reviews of every commit helps that. He can *still* achieve blame share for controversial commits by just submitting his work to the review system on purpose. |
| 10:42:57 | God_Eater | making every commit require review is just insanity |
| 10:43:04 | Llorean | kugel: That would also be me, though I was talking about that in general too. I was thinking more along the lines of "I don't want to be the person who reviews Bootloader code. Only Bob knows it, but he wrote the patch so he can't do it." |
| 10:43:32 | kugel | enforcing makes people to just click it away like ads, voluntary review doesn't (I hope) |
| 10:43:41 | God_Eater | kugel: my view precisely |
| 10:43:54 | Llorean | I was thinking of it more as "because the button pusher has to share the blame, it may make some people tentative to review certain things" more than "so the committer can push the blame off on others" |
| 10:44:04 | Llorean | Voluntary review is good, I think. Very good. |
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| 10:44:10 | God_Eater | we'll either end up with people just clicking "yes this is fine" without really thinking about it, or we'll end up with, as gevaerts said, 3 commits a month. |
| 10:44:16 | B4gder | Voluntary review is very good |
| 10:44:25 | kugel | so it would possibly create a way to sneak in controversial changes with the feature of being able to point at someone |
| 10:44:39 | B4gder | or just queue them up |
| 10:45:59 | kugel | otoh I can also believe that JdGordon is worried thatvolunteer review doesn't change the status quo (people simply don't do review) much |
| 10:46:20 | kugel | but I agree with [Saint], JdGordon isnt usually asking for review but for testing |
| 10:46:29 | God_Eater | kugel: that may be true too - but introducing this change doesn't help that. |
| 10:46:31 | God_Eater | it makes it worse. |
| 10:46:51 | Llorean | I doubt voluntary review would change things much, but it does create the opportunity where if you feel nervous about your code for any reason (touching areas you don't normally, controversy, whatever) you can put it in a place where responsibility may be more readily shared. |
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| 10:46:55 | God_Eater | this is not a problem we can fix with a technical solution |
| 10:47:25 | kugel | right |
| 10:53:25 | kugel | btw, I also find the constant insults of JdGordon unacceptable (not only recently, he did that always), and we should do something about it |
| 10:53:48 | kugel | I basically avoid discussing with him were possible because of this |
| 10:53:52 | kugel | where* |
| 10:55:55 | | Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) |
| 10:56:32 | Llorean | What can you do about that sort of behaviour? Other than saying "you shouldn't behave that way," and I think he knows that, all you have is the threat of removing privileges. And the only one we *really* have is commit access. Is this really a "threaten to remove commit access" breach of etiquette? |
| 10:58:19 | kugel | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 |
| 11:00 |
| 11:01:04 | kugel | first of all, we should show more openly that we totally don't want that behavior |
| 11:01:29 | kugel | and if revoking commit access is a solution we should consider it sure |
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| 12:00 |
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| 12:10:24 | * | Torne replies to the whole review thing on the list :) |
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| 12:45:33 | * | JdGordon is incredibly offended by the whole discussion |
| 12:45:43 | JdGordon | and especially annoyed by the lack of comments from other people |
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| 12:46:15 | JdGordon | I dont know where the heck anyone got the suggestion that my *suggestion* had anything to do with anything other than *code comments* |
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| 12:47:10 | JdGordon | Also hugly pissed off that the 2 people who have the biggest voices against the thught at the begiing were God_Eater and Llorean who this wouldnt affect *at all* |
| 12:47:24 | JdGordon | there arent many ties i can use my commit count against then, but if not there then wtf? |
| 12:48:34 | JdGordon | Anyone seriously suggesting that having a second set of eyes looking at commits is a bad thing is an idiot |
| 12:49:53 | kugel | stop calling other people idiots because they disagree with you |
| 12:50:07 | gevaerts | JdGordon: please point to *one* place where someone suggested this |
| 12:50:39 | gevaerts | Your style of arguing is *seriuously* offensive |
| 12:51:21 | JdGordon | concidering I wasnt even around tonight and it went immeditaly personal, you know what? i dont care |
| 12:51:45 | gevaerts | I don't see what that has to do with what you just said |
| 12:52:39 | JdGordon | frankly being accused of pushing agendas and controversial changes is pretty damn rude but noone seems to give a shit |
| 12:52:40 | kugel | JdGordon: if at all, it went personal after your drive-by-shoot against Llorean |
| 12:53:09 | gevaerts | JdGordon: putting arguments in people's mouths and then calling them idiots for it isn't rude? |
| 12:53:25 | JdGordon | read the log, Llorean put more than just words in my mouth |
| 12:53:35 | God_Eater | JdGordon: we specifically said that this *wouldn't* help you push agendas actually. |
| 12:53:50 | gevaerts | I'm discussing what you said in the last 10 minutes. I don't *care* what Llorean said |
| 12:54:01 | JdGordon | which frankly i find the suggestion that I have agendas pretty damn rude |
| 12:54:55 | JdGordon | I honestly have no idea how my 3 line email turned into this shit fight... |
| 12:55:12 | JdGordon | oh, other than Llorean who has about 15 commits and this wouldnt affect at all is still breathing |
| 12:55:16 | JdGordon | </end> |
| 12:55:21 | God_Eater | it turned into a shit fight because you came in and called Llorean a fucking moron |
| 12:55:42 | * | JdGordon *was* planing on coding useful stuff like using buflib in the skin engine tonight |
| 12:55:45 | JdGordon | but fuck that |
| 12:58:40 | * | n1s wonders if people have another definition of review than he does |
| 13:00 |
| 13:01:10 | JdGordon | http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20110907#09:51:44 nice and polite |
| 13:02:06 | God_Eater | certainly a lot politer than you |
| 13:02:40 | B4gder | JdGordon: I don't know how you speak with your friends, but to many of us your language is outright offensive and does not belong here. No matter what you responded to. |
| 13:03:11 | B4gder | we're all friends |
| 13:03:19 | JdGordon | hahhaaha |
| 13:03:27 | JdGordon | to the latter part |
| 13:03:30 | God_Eater | and calling me an asshole in private isn't awesome either |
| 13:03:46 | B4gder | JdGordon: I honestly believe we are |
| 13:03:50 | JdGordon | Contrary to what you all think I am not the one that sends arguments downhill |
| 13:04:19 | JdGordon | if you all dont want me here then say so |
| 13:04:30 | B4gder | [13:03] <B4gder> we're all friends |
| 13:05:08 | JdGordon | its been mostly fun for me, and apart from a small handfull of people I would happily share a beer IRL, but i really do get the impression that im not wanted |
| 13:05:18 | JdGordon | and that my contributions have been viewed as worthless |
| 13:05:30 | B4gder | I'm just asking that we raise the bar a bit in our communication here |
| 13:05:40 | kugel | JdGordon: it's the "offensive attitude" part of you that's not wanted |
| 13:05:57 | * | JdGordon 's bus factor is pretty much: actions, the entire setting system, the list api, skin_engine/ menus..... |
| 13:06:01 | JdGordon | nothing particualry important |
| 13:06:16 | JdGordon | kugel: pot-kettle coming from you sir |
| 13:06:37 | kugel | pot-kettle? |
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| 13:08:14 | God_Eater | kugel: english expression implying you do exactly the same - though I can't say I recall you as being as rude. |
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| 13:11:13 | kugel | JdGordon: I don't see that anyone suggested your contributions are worthless. they're very valuable in fact |
| 13:11:30 | B4gder | very, I'd say |
| 13:12:34 | | Quit nick-p (Quit: Leaving) |
| 13:13:20 | JdGordon | well seen as everyone is annoyed with me tonight anyway i may as well get this off my chest |
| 13:13:38 | * | Llorean thinks people have misunderstood my "blame-sharing" fear. |
| 13:13:50 | JdGordon | in just about every contentious argument, it is always Llorean who is so vehementyl against it and drags it to shit |
| 13:14:05 | Llorean | I don't see it as a way for someone committing to force someone to share the blame. I see it as a situation where people might not want the responsibility of reviewing someone else's work because if they don't catch something, they get caught up in it. |
| 13:14:22 | | Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 13:14:22 | JdGordon | considering the shere lack of contributions I find it very offensive that his loud voice gets to shout down mine |
| 13:14:24 | gevaerts | Llorean: I would hope that that wouldn't happen |
| 13:15:23 | gevaerts | JdGordon: nobody gets to shout down anyone. In fact, what some of us have been trying to say is that nobody gets to shout, period. |
| 13:16:06 | JdGordon | excpe then if i were to commit something which I know would cause an argument post-commit the same thing happens |
| 13:16:10 | JdGordon | so whats the point? |
| 13:16:28 | n1s | i'd expect commits for review would have the same quality that regular commits have so the bugs should be failry hard to find :) and i don't think we should start blaming reviewers for not spotting them |
| 13:16:32 | JdGordon | th status quo has always been that if a argument happens it stays out, which is fine |
| 13:16:44 | JdGordon | but then when no discussion happens there is an argumen just as much |
| 13:17:08 | God_Eater | n1s: which is a noble thing, but what Llorean is suggesting is that people might perceive *themselves* as to blame for accepting a patch this way. |
| 13:17:13 | JdGordon | and I can pove this with other people commits |
| 13:17:20 | Llorean | God_Eater: Exactly. |
| 13:17:40 | n1s | God_Eater: Llorean: i just don't see that but i might be wrong |
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| 13:17:42 | JdGordon | since when has anyone blamed anyone in here for a bug? |
| 13:17:45 | JdGordon | outside of a joke |
| 13:17:50 | God_Eater | n1s: and this would lead to much fewer commits actually happening |
| 13:17:59 | JdGordon | doing peer code review *is* a good thing |
| 13:18:00 | Llorean | n1s: People often pass on reviewing patches because "I don't know that part of the code." I expect people would patch on reviewing pending commits for the same reason. |
| 13:18:10 | B4gder | I don't consider the "shared blame" as a big risk or real issue |
| 13:18:11 | JdGordon | the fact that non contributers are shouting it down is very rude |
| 13:18:34 | JdGordon | if we had an actuall discusison and decided against it fine |
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| 13:18:36 | Llorean | JdGordon: I personally think it's rude to define someone as a non-contributor simply because their contributions haven't been code. |
| 13:18:44 | JdGordon | but outright saying ignore it is just damn rude |
| 13:18:45 | n1s | which is why i would like us to try it and see what happens |
| 13:19:04 | * | Torne notes that *he* hasn't committed anything for a while either, and hopes that doesn't make him a non-contributor |
| 13:19:13 | * | B4gder hasn't committed in ages |
| 13:19:19 | God_Eater | n1s: you're perfectly free to try it - submit everything you want to refs/for/master |
| 13:19:22 | JdGordon | I'm also sure gerrit can be made to allow the contributer do the shipit after X hours |
| 13:19:39 | God_Eater | I just don't want you saying I have to do the same |
| 13:19:41 | Torne | JdGordon: gerrit actually allows you to approve your own changes :) |
| 13:19:45 | JdGordon | anyone with more than a few odzen commits *ever* is a contributer on my book |
| 13:19:46 | Torne | just whenever. |
| 13:19:49 | Torne | So, yeah |
| 13:19:51 | JdGordon | so fine then |
| 13:19:51 | Llorean | JdGordon: If an "after X hours" were in place, *almost nobody* would review, because there'd be no reason they'd have to. |
| 13:20:07 | JdGordon | peer review is not a bad procedure |
| 13:20:18 | JdGordon | and I know im going to be affected by this omre than th epeope complaining |
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| 13:20:23 | God_Eater | JdGordon: but you even said in your email that no review was required! |
| 13:20:24 | B4gder | peer review is awesome |
| 13:20:30 | Torne | there is literally zero point in requiring everyone to upload stuff for review if you are also going to say it's okay for them to approve their own stuff |
| 13:20:36 | Llorean | Actual review isn't what's going to happen here, in a lot of cases. |
| 13:20:58 | Torne | why don't we, yaknow, switch to new tools first |
| 13:21:04 | Torne | and then *see if people actually do reviews* |
| 13:21:07 | Torne | and then discuss it then |
| 13:21:09 | n1s | i still think people have too much preconcieved oppinions about what will happen |
| 13:21:17 | Torne | n1s: exactly |
| 13:21:31 | * | JdGordon just wanted to have the talk |
| 13:21:43 | Llorean | JdGordon: And we did have the talk, *mostly* fairly civilly. |
| 13:21:45 | JdGordon | peer review drives me freeking bonkers at work, but it is a good thing |
| 13:21:47 | Torne | there is no point having it now, seriously |
| 13:21:56 | JdGordon | so when? |
| 13:22:11 | JdGordon | once gerrit is in place and everyone is already used to pushing directly |
| 13:22:13 | JdGordon | ? |
| 13:22:17 | Llorean | After people are acclimatized to the new tools, and understand the workflow better and how a review step would fit into it. |
| 13:22:19 | Torne | you say "used to pushing directly" |
| 13:22:21 | Torne | like that's a new thing |
| 13:22:23 | * | [Saint] just sees the same people shooting it down at a later point. |
| 13:22:26 | God_Eater | we already *are* used to pushing directly |
| 13:22:26 | Torne | This is also called "committing" |
| 13:22:33 | Torne | this is what people do now |
| 13:22:47 | JdGordon | only because the tools dont cater for it |
| 13:23:07 | Torne | you are suggesting that switching to git and allowing commits directly is a regression |
| 13:23:12 | God_Eater | rubbish - we could have forced people to commit to a branch in svn, and only move to trunk when it's approved. |
| 13:23:21 | JdGordon | doesnt gerrit let you accept a commit directly from the web interface? |
| 13:23:23 | gevaerts | JdGordon: if we keep adding more things to discuss before we can switch, we won't switch |
| 13:23:59 | JdGordon | all this would be is literally saying "guys, i've pushed X which is pretty small, has someone got a min to ok it?" |
| 13:24:31 | Torne | which is a radical departure from our current development culture |
| 13:24:37 | Torne | possibly a good one, possibly not |
| 13:24:43 | Torne | but *more change at once* is rarely a good thing |
| 13:24:50 | JdGordon | git is a radical departure already |
| 13:24:57 | Torne | no it isn't. |
| 13:25:03 | | Quit user890104 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 13:25:28 | Torne | git gives you the option of inventing ways of working that are radically different |
| 13:25:34 | Torne | but most people don't and won't |
| 13:25:49 | Torne | for most people i imagine a small shell script that pretended to be svn would be sufficient :) |
| 13:25:54 | JdGordon | ok, so we continue having code which never gets a second look |
| 13:26:10 | Llorean | Which has worked for us pretty well for many years. |
| 13:26:12 | JdGordon | if everyone really is ok with that then fine |
| 13:26:17 | Torne | you keep saying this like "continuing to do as we are" is some terrible outcome |
| 13:26:31 | JdGordon | well, it is far from ideal |
| 13:26:34 | | Join user890104 [0] (~Venci@6bez10.info) |
| 13:26:34 | Llorean | And then, once everyone's settled in, we bring up the idea again, and talk about the benefits of a review process in a reasoned manner, without yelling at people who bring up ideas we disagree with. |
| 13:26:59 | Torne | JdGordon: by trying to force this discussion now you are letting the ideal impede *any progress at all* |
| 13:27:21 | JdGordon | no im not |
| 13:27:37 | JdGordon | your list has it as step 4 no? |
| 13:28:01 | Torne | yes, and time allowing i was hoping to get there by next week or so :) |
| 13:28:23 | JdGordon | putting policies into affect at some random pooint later is going to go over far more smootly isnt it? |
| 13:28:37 | Torne | what? |
| 13:28:43 | gevaerts | It's going to work better than trying to do it now, yes |
| 13:28:49 | Zagor | iterative change is usually less painful than revolutionary, yes |
| 13:28:58 | gevaerts | Because trying to do it now means staying with svn for another two years |
| 13:29:00 | Torne | yes, it will be much easier to discuss whether we want to require code review once lots of peopl ehave had a chance to try doing it |
| 13:29:29 | Llorean | Yeah, it'd help a lot if people used the voluntary review process some, and showed in the real-world how easily it is to get things through it consistently |
| 13:29:36 | Torne | Right. |
| 13:29:45 | Torne | That would be great: if you want to advocate that, do it |
| 13:29:52 | Torne | I intend to try and get my changes reviewed |
| 13:30:04 | Torne | I intend to review other people's changes if they are related at all to code i'm familiar with |
| 13:30:12 | pamaury | If I understand correctly, you want to force discussion for *every* commit ? I can't see how this is compatible with the vast dispersion of knowledge. There are parts of the code that only afew people can really review and I would expect such people to do it anyway after the commit, that's the implicit part of being a contributor in some area of the code. Code review should be a option for the commiter |
| 13:30:15 | God_Eater | I will too - when, on the rare occasions I make them, I feel they warrant it |
| 13:30:28 | God_Eater | the one line change I made yesterday to "installToolchain.sh" didn't warrant it. |
| 13:30:28 | JdGordon | pamaury: NO! not discussion |
| 13:30:31 | Llorean | pamaury: Not discussion. Just approval. By any one person other than the original committer. |
| 13:30:43 | JdGordon | *review*, it just needs one person to go over the code and look for SNAFU's |
| 13:31:08 | JdGordon | God_Eater: so what would we have lost if it took an extra 3 min for someone else to ok it first? |
| 13:31:18 | JdGordon | small commits are jsut as likely to be wrong as big ones |
| 13:31:33 | pamaury | It doesn't change my point |
| 13:31:33 | God_Eater | "Why? Just come in irc and ask someone to press the button. They don't need to do a full blown revue" <−− your words |
| 13:31:35 | Torne | it only takes an extra three minutes if people are around to do it |
| 13:31:45 | JdGordon | people are always around |
| 13:31:52 | * | JdGordon is in here alone more than anyone else |
| 13:31:54 | pamaury | no |
| 13:31:56 | Torne | the right people are frequently not around |
| 13:32:19 | God_Eater | having just "someone" press the button is a waste of time |
| 13:32:24 | Torne | the right people for many things is a very small set of people |
| 13:32:24 | JdGordon | again, no... if you actually want "the right people" to review it then it isnt ready for commit |
| 13:32:26 | pamaury | many people are around but not necessarily the one who know your part of the code |
| 13:32:33 | JdGordon | this is a second set of eyes giving it a oce over |
| 13:32:34 | JdGordon | once* |
| 13:32:45 | Torne | I don't believe that is useful. |
| 13:32:49 | God_Eater | a second set of eyes who may not having a clue what it's doing! |
| 13:32:55 | JdGordon | pamaury: thats the point! you want a fewsh set of eyes to look for something obvious |
| 13:33:00 | Torne | I have done code reviews for a good eight years |
| 13:33:10 | Torne | using a variety of systems, sets of rules, etc |
| 13:33:22 | Torne | and my experience has been that 100% of reviews done by random people are worthless |
| 13:34:29 | Torne | I have never, ever had a bug found in my code by someone who wasn't knowledgable about the code in question |
| 13:34:29 | JdGordon | ok, that type of response is helpful |
| 13:34:29 | Torne | the kind of mistake that can be spotted by just anyone iare the kind that can be spotted by basic building + testing |
| 13:34:29 | * | JdGordon is surprised more of the old timers didnt say that before |
| 13:34:29 | Torne | do not commit code you haven't built and tested. |
| 13:34:29 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK Torne |
| 13:34:29 | Torne | that solves that one :) |
| 13:35:08 | JdGordon | next fight :) doesnt commitnig directly let people to merge commits instead of the single change commits? :) |
| 13:35:11 | Ctcp | Ignored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood |
| 13:35:11 | * | God_Eater is surprised JdGordon couldn't work it out on his own. |
| 13:35:36 | JdGordon | God_Eater: and you've been doing software development professionally for how long? |
| 13:35:47 | God_Eater | 15 years thanks |
| 13:35:54 | JdGordon | yet you didnt say that |
| 13:35:54 | pamaury | No my point is that for some parts of the code, only 1 or 2 people can review your code and if you don't feel confident, you should ask them for review instead of letting random people do it. But since you are expected to build and test before commit, that greatly reduces the probably of doing something wrong. |
| 13:36:00 | God_Eater | JdGordon: I don't have to |
| 13:36:42 | Torne | JdGordon: allowing merges vs forcing flattening/rebasing is orthogonal |
| 13:36:58 | * | JdGordon was kidding there :) |
| 13:36:59 | Torne | JdGordon: gerrit knows the difference between merge commits and regular commits and they are independantly controllable regardless of destination |
| 13:37:30 | Torne | that part is something i do intend to discuss soon because I've changed my mind about what the best way of doing things is, having had more experience using git |
| 13:37:42 | JdGordon | pamaury: my tihnking is that someone who has no clue about the code might see something which someone who's been staring at it for weeks had already glossed over |
| 13:37:45 | Torne | but can we not bring that up now :) |
| 13:37:50 | JdGordon | its not completly unimaginable |
| 13:38:01 | Zagor | but exceedingly unlikely |
| 13:38:03 | JdGordon | but that does require an actual code read |
| 13:38:03 | Torne | JdGordon: it's not unimaginable, but it's fairly rare if you have a build and test system :) |
| 13:38:15 | Torne | and it takes more than three minutes, for any change that isn't a oneliner. |
| 13:38:32 | B4gder | ... unless you want to find spelling mistakes in comments |
| 13:38:36 | JdGordon | ok, and had you convinced me that way 2 hours ago we'd all be much happier |
| 13:39:00 | pamaury | As for what I do (port, low level drivers), you can miss something important at every line so it's extremely unlikely that you notice something. But it might true for other parts of the code |
| 13:39:27 | Torne | pamaury: sure, there are areas that are reasonable for a wide pool of potential reviewers |
| 13:39:52 | God_Eater | JdGordon: and if you hadn't crashed into the channel with an obscenity thrown at Llorean, we'd all be much happier too. |
| 13:41:23 | JdGordon | you'd already said the discussion was completly disregardlable before that |
| 13:41:28 | Torne | anyway, yes, i would personally like us to move toward a world where reviews are the norm, rather than the exception. I don't think making them mandatory right now is a helpful step toward that. Changing culture takes time and people have to be willing, and for them to be willing it has to be demonstrated that it's worthwhile |
| 13:41:52 | JdGordon | so some time next millenium considering how slow change happeens here :) |
| 13:42:02 | Torne | maybe :) |
| 13:42:11 | Torne | More reasonably: do the migration as i describe first |
| 13:42:15 | Torne | then wait maybe six months? |
| 13:42:23 | Torne | assuming a reasonable number of people *do8 actually use the review system in that time |
| 13:42:28 | Torne | then discuss it. |
| 13:42:35 | God_Eater | I can't imagine them not using it |
| 13:42:35 | JdGordon | you know full well the discussion will then be "why change? i like it the way it is" |
| 13:42:44 | Torne | Then we've lost nothing |
| 13:42:49 | God_Eater | it's a nicer workflow than putting stuff in flyspray which people do already - even if they *are* committers |
| 13:43:05 | Torne | JdGordon: and I don't intend to be content with that |
| 13:43:09 | B4gder | JdGordon: if people prefer one way, why is it bad to use that way? |
| 13:43:16 | Torne | at that time, I will do what I can to help convicne people |
| 13:43:34 | Torne | but I have no desire to force people to change at all, especially not right now |
| 13:43:48 | JdGordon | B4gder: you asking in general? or this specifically? |
| 13:44:17 | B4gder | you just said it was bad, and I find that a bit amusing |
| 13:44:35 | God_Eater | doing it the way one person wants in spite of what everyone else wants is called a dictatorship. And our dictator is Zagor. :D |
| 13:44:51 | JdGordon | all hail our swedish overlords! |
| 13:45:01 | Zagor | or was, at least. it was many years since I last forced a decision. |
| 13:45:34 | JdGordon | B4gder: because I'm still fresh out of uni where we are drilled in with peer programming ideas and cocde review, and im forced to use it at work, so obviously my brain thinks it is correct! |
| 13:45:38 | God_Eater | Zagor: I don't remember you resigning though ;) |
| 13:45:51 | Zagor | I'm a sleeper dictator :-) |
| 13:45:59 | Zagor | ready to pounce |
| 13:46:03 | JdGordon | but in general, just because "this is the way its always been" is a worthless arguemnt |
| 13:46:15 | B4gder | that I fully agree with |
| 13:46:17 | God_Eater | that wasn't the argument being proporsed though |
| 13:46:17 | Torne | JdGordon: the thing is, the only reason we are even looking at gerrit is because i wanted it. but i've tried really hard not to force the issue or impose my will on anyone here, and to instead convince people by demonstrating its merits |
| 13:46:32 | Torne | JdGordon: your argument for mandatory code review is largely by assertion, which is not great. |
| 13:46:52 | JdGordon | I'd hardly call it an argument |
| 13:46:59 | Torne | the assertions are meaningful to people who have been in environments where mandatory code review was in place and successful |
| 13:47:15 | Torne | but that's not everyone, and that doesn't automatically mean we have the right environment right now. |
| 13:48:01 | Torne | (also, there is more than one level of "mandatory" that exists..) |
| 13:48:06 | * | JdGordon stops arguing with people who clearly know more than him on the topic |
| 13:48:13 | Torne | (e.g. i made a commit to a project yesterday and I reviewed it myself :) |
| 13:48:25 | Llorean | I'm just not sure I see how we can have *mandatory* code review, and at the same time have it be useful. Either people won't touch code they don't feel comfortable reviewing, or don't have time to review, or they'll skim it and put it in, removing the usefulness of it. |
| 13:48:32 | God_Eater | criteria for review fulfilled presumably Torne ? :) |
| 13:48:34 | JdGordon | I'm way more pissed off with how the argument unfolded |
| 13:48:37 | | Join MethoS- [0] (~clemens@134.102.106.250) |
| 13:48:40 | Torne | God_Eater: yup :) |
| 13:48:57 | Llorean | There's a happy medium in there, where every patch gets looked at seriously by people who read it carefully looking for typos and bugs, but I have this feeling that's not going to be the lions share of reviews in the long term. |
| 13:49:02 | Torne | God_Eater: gerrit doesn't currently have a rule engine (it's coming soon) and nobody has bothered to implemnent a non-rule-engine based check that you haven't reviewed your own change |
| 13:49:15 | Torne | God_Eater: enforcement is thus by peer pressure :p |
| 13:49:19 | God_Eater | hehe |
| 13:49:52 | Llorean | JdGordon: Most people stated reasonable fears about why mandatory reviews could be a bad thing. Then you called me names. Then we went back to reasonably discussing it on the mailing list instead of in here. |
| 13:49:55 | Torne | Llorean: It's possible |
| 13:50:04 | Torne | Llorean: I think we can get there over time |
| 13:50:12 | Llorean | Torne: And I think a term of voluntary review is a great way to test the waters. |
| 13:50:17 | Torne | Indeed |
| 13:50:19 | God_Eater | ditto |
| 13:50:24 | Torne | While we're doing that we can also look at other helpful tricks |
| 13:50:30 | Torne | like having buildbots test changes before commit |
| 13:50:48 | God_Eater | infrastructure is fun! |
| 13:50:57 | | Join rinaku [0] (johan@nibox.dgmil.net) |
| 13:50:59 | Torne | if you pile enough demonstrably useful functionality on a system then people will use it :p |
| 13:51:27 | * | Llorean wishes there were a way to complete all builds *then* perform the final commit. |
| 13:51:32 | Torne | Llorean: There is |
| 13:51:44 | Torne | It's something of a bottleneck though |
| 13:51:54 | Torne | Chromium uses a compromise |
| 13:52:10 | Torne | (when you hit commit, it runs a build against the *current* HEAD with your change then if that succeeds, commits it) |
| 13:52:23 | Torne | This is not quite perfect because more commits might get applied to HEAD after your build starts |
| 13:52:25 | Llorean | Since I feel like, typically, we've seen more "commit, gotta sleep, by" broken builds than "oops, that damn typo screwed up the logic but it still compiles without errors" broken builds. |
| 13:52:42 | Torne | Llorean: Right, but you don't actually need a commit queue to do that |
| 13:52:53 | Torne | *most* of the time it's sufficient to test the change against *anY8 version of trunk |
| 13:53:06 | Torne | since normally it's either broken or it's not, and subsequent changes to trunk don't affect that state |
| 13:53:17 | Torne | so yeah, trybots |
| 13:53:31 | Torne | which, on completion, give your review a +1/-1 according to the build results |
| 13:53:34 | JdGordon | adding a 3-30min lag for commits is fine but a 5 min lag to get a review is a waste of time? |
| 13:53:38 | Torne | or maybe +1/-2 |
| 13:53:57 | Torne | JdGordon: i am suggesting that again this be a voluntary thing you can do. |
| 13:54:20 | JdGordon | being able to ask the build bots to run our branches would be sweet thouh |
| 13:54:26 | JdGordon | pre commit is a bit annoying |
| 13:54:35 | Torne | JdGordon: as noted already, doing a good review takes more than 5 minutes in many cases |
| 13:54:48 | Torne | and doing a build run is for us pretty fast because we have no tests :0 |
| 13:54:53 | Torne | for chromium it takes a while. |
| 13:55:01 | Torne | but I still do it, even though it's also voluntary |
| 13:55:08 | Llorean | And we do a build run every commit *anyway* (except when they're stacked on top of each other too closely) |
| 13:55:17 | * | JdGordon would have rnu last nights commit through the buildsystem pre commit if he could have |
| 13:55:30 | Torne | JdGordon: anyway, this is an independant thing, at this point |
| 13:55:38 | JdGordon | easier to just commit and fix than to get all the toolchains built and working and then decide which to build |
| 13:55:44 | Torne | If we are using gerrit the easiest way to integrate trybot runs would be through gerrit reviews. |
| 13:55:48 | * | JdGordon just wats git already :) |
| 13:56:08 | Torne | since there is a known, fixed way to get the contents of a gerrit change, from a single server |
| 13:56:17 | Torne | which makes it somewhat easier than pulling a git branch from whoknowswhere |
| 13:56:18 | JdGordon | ok |
| 13:56:27 | Torne | anyway |
| 13:56:30 | Torne | i'm going for lunch. ;) |
| 13:59:02 | God_Eater | Zagor: will this also fix the naughty network card thing? (re: maintenance) |
| 13:59:11 | B4gder | yes |
| 13:59:16 | God_Eater | hoo-bloody-ray |
| 13:59:19 | God_Eater | :D |
| 13:59:27 | B4gder | out with the old, in with the new! |
| 13:59:43 | God_Eater | no no - I don't want a new naughty network card |
| 13:59:47 | God_Eater | I just want plain rid of it :) |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:01 | B4gder | brand new problems coming up! =) |
| 14:00:10 | God_Eater | haha |
| 14:01:20 | [Saint] | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0195090/ <−− A card from the 1981 movie of the same title? |
| 14:02:13 | JdGordon | soooooo....... what's the correct procdure to load a bitmap file into a buflib handle? |
| 14:10:38 | rinaku | Hello |
| 14:12:17 | rinaku | I have a Sansa Clip+ and I just installed Rockbox to be able to play AAC files (which I get that way: sometimes I happen to have a H264/AAC/MP4 video and I convert it vith VLC to AAC/MP4; I just keep the AAC track not to lose quality) |
| 14:12:47 | rinaku | as described in the FAQ, "Weird things happen", aka skipping, when I try to play those files |
| 14:13:18 | rinaku | I just wanted to know if there is something smarter to do than just convert all my .mp4 files to vorbis or mp3 |
| 14:15:47 | n1s | Torne: what does gerrit do if two conflicting changes are pushed for review? |
| 14:16:13 | JdGordon | first one to merge wins? |
| 14:16:16 | God_Eater | n1s: I would imagine "sod all" until they're actually commited. |
| 14:16:52 | n1s | God_Eater: but if one is approved and committed what happens to the other one? |
| 14:17:08 | God_Eater | nothing until you try and merge it I would think |
| 14:17:10 | JdGordon | it fails to merge |
| 14:17:14 | God_Eater | at which point you'll see conflicts |
| 14:17:30 | God_Eater | n1s: why don't you try it and see? |
| 14:17:37 | God_Eater | that's what the sandbox is there for! |
| 14:18:04 | n1s | ah, right, i'll try to do that |
| 14:18:31 | God_Eater | I didn't go begging for that server for it to just sit there and look pretty ;) |
| 14:25:06 | | Part Zagor |
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| 14:29:26 | | Quit B4gder (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
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| 14:33:59 | Torne | n1s: if it conflicts at submit time it won't submit it, and you will have to rebase/merge and reupload it |
| 14:35:28 | Torne | gerrit has a variety of submit methods but none of them will continue unless there are no conflicts |
| 14:40:52 | n1s | aha |
| 14:45:21 | Torne | it doesn't alert you to this until you try and submit, though |
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| 15:00 |
| 15:17:06 | JdGordon | has anyone tried putting volume on the quickscreen? |
| 15:17:38 | Torne | yes. it goes backwards from what you'd expect :) |
| 15:18:02 | JdGordon | does it actually work though? |
| 15:18:08 | JdGordon | i.e the volume does indeed change? |
| 15:18:42 | Torne | last time i tried, i thought so |
| 15:18:47 | Torne | some time ago :) |
| 15:19:59 | * | JdGordon is looking into fs#12262 and is baffled |
| 15:20:00 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12262 %T setting_inc and setting_set actions not updating volume properly (bugs, unconfirmed) |
| 15:20:26 | JdGordon | BAFFLED! |
| 15:21:04 | JdGordon | [Saint]: ping? |
| 15:22:18 | [Saint] | yo... |
| 15:23:42 | JdGordon | have you tried using %T setting_inc/dec with volume? |
| 15:23:43 | [Saint] | Ah... |
| 15:23:50 | * | [Saint] sees what he should be looking at. |
| 15:24:09 | JdGordon | I have a one line fix which may work |
| 15:25:00 | [Saint] | I haven't tried that, no. |
| 15:25:10 | [Saint] | Oh...actually, I may have. |
| 15:25:13 | [Saint] | Gimme a min tho. |
| 15:26:37 | JdGordon | I'm 99.999% sure this fix is correct anyway |
| 15:26:57 | JdGordon | it looks like the callbacks for most settings were not called from the quickscreen |
| 15:27:20 | JdGordon | so adding that in should just fix this |
| 15:27:32 | JdGordon | I say the quickscreen here because it is the same code which %T runs |
| 15:27:40 | [Saint] | Hmmm...actually, why *would* you use setting_set/inc/dec for volume? I can't imagine setting to a specific volume too useful (unless its a "fake" mute, and isn't there volume up/down touch tags? |
| 15:28:31 | [Saint] | "Reason for closing: You're insane, use the right tags!" ;) |
| 15:29:20 | JdGordon | I vaguely remember you wanting to put a + and - volume button in |
| 15:30:36 | | Join milk [0] (~milk@94-193-93-226.zone7.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:30:40 | [Saint] | I did at one point. |
| 15:30:50 | [Saint] | but there's "volup" and "voldown" |
| 15:30:53 | [Saint] | I used those. |
| 15:31:11 | JdGordon | the fix works anyway :) |
| 15:31:14 | JdGordon | and good point |
| 15:31:37 | [Saint] | So...I actually *don't* really think its a bug that this "doesn't work". |
| 15:31:44 | [Saint] | there's specific tags that do this. |
| 15:31:55 | [Saint] | and "setting_set" is practically useless for volume. |
| 15:32:04 | JdGordon | missing the oint |
| 15:32:06 | [Saint] | (because of "mute") |
| 15:32:08 | JdGordon | s/volume/bass/ |
| 15:32:38 | [Saint] | Ah...right, I thought this was specific to volume, apologies.. |
| 15:33:08 | CIA-14 | New commit by jdgordon (r30466): Fix FS #12262 - Volume (and all sound settings and anything using the "table" setting type) don't get applied correctly when being changed from the ... |
| 15:33:09 | JdGordon | :) |
| 15:33:41 | * | JdGordon mumbles something about ignoring the twats and actually fixing bugs is what we should be about here |
| 15:34:17 | [Saint] | s/twats/users/ ;) |
| 15:36:23 | | Quit ej0rge (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 15:36:29 | CIA-14 | r30466 build result: All green |
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| 15:43:28 | | Join Rob2223 [0] (~Miranda@p5DE4BCB6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:44:29 | JdGordon | AlexP: if you're doing another 3.9.x release that would be a good candidate |
| 15:46:37 | | Quit Rob2222 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 15:51:55 | | Quit mikroflops (Quit: <(^_^)>) |
| 15:52:02 | amiconn | B4gder: Where in svn can I find the build colouring script? And if it's not in svn atm, could you add it there? |
| 15:52:29 | amiconn | It needs fixing... |
| 15:54:57 | gevaerts | amiconn: it's checklog.pl in the build server svn |
| 15:55:08 | gevaerts | i.e. svn://svn.rockbox.org/rockbox/www/buildserver |
| 15:55:57 | amiconn | checklog.pl is the one that counts errors, not the one that does the actual colouring |
| 15:56:13 | amiconn | It also needs fixing, but less so than the colouring thing |
| 15:56:30 | gevaerts | oh, right |
| 15:56:45 | amiconn | They could probably share some code, btw |
| 15:57:07 | [Saint] | "fixing" as in, its busted right now? Or, as in git transitional stuff? |
| 15:57:44 | amiconn | It's broken for quite some time already |
| 15:58:16 | | Join chu [0] (~734a48b9@www.haxx.se) |
| 15:58:18 | amiconn | It doesn't colour all errors, and otoh colours some lines red which aren't even warnings |
| 15:58:29 | chu | hi |
| 15:59:10 | [Saint] | chu: Hi. This isn't a social chat...if you have a question about ROckbox, go ahead and ask...we don't bite. |
| 15:59:20 | [Saint] | Rockbox, too. |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:54 | | Quit chu (Client Quit) |
| 16:00:59 | mc2739 | amiconn: is this it? http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/www/buildserver/showbuilds.pl |
| 16:01:01 | | Join chu [0] (~734a48b9@www.haxx.se) |
| 16:01:09 | pamaury | arg, the gnu linker is doing crazy thing ! |
| 16:04:31 | chu | hi |
| 16:05:05 | | Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 16:05:20 | | Quit chu (Client Quit) |
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| 16:05:52 | | Join chu [0] (~ma@115.74.72.185) |
| 16:06:07 | chu | hi |
| 16:06:38 | [Saint] | chu: If you have a question about Rockbox, just ask it. |
| 16:06:54 | chu | i have a gigabeatS |
| 16:06:56 | chu | sorry |
| 16:07:15 | chu | my connection not stable |
| 16:07:34 | chu | i installed a toshiba 160GB MK1634GAL |
| 16:07:53 | chu | after a few day used |
| 16:08:02 | chu | now the gigabeat hang at the boot screen |
| 16:08:17 | chu | with the following text |
| 16:08:35 | chu | Gigabeats Rockbox bootloader |
| 16:08:40 | chu | version 1.0 |
| 16:08:51 | chu | Battery 2.4V |
| 16:08:58 | chu | Init complete |
| 16:09:12 | chu | Length: 9BBBC |
| 16:09:18 | gevaerts | 2.4V is *awfully* low |
| 16:09:29 | chu | I run from the AC adapter |
| 16:09:34 | [Saint] | beat me to it, I was waiting to see if he'd finished ;) |
| 16:09:37 | amiconn | mc2739: Negative. That one is responsible for the build table |
| 16:09:40 | chu | for some reason it appear only 2.4000V |
| 16:10:03 | chu | checksum: 3D10B22 |
| 16:10:12 | chu | Model name:gigs |
| 16:10:24 | chu | Loading rockbox.gigabeat |
| 16:10:31 | chu | Sum: 3D10B22 |
| 16:10:35 | chu | theng hang up |
| 16:10:47 | chu | some time it can run to the main screen |
| 16:11:01 | chu | but it hang there for a few minutes |
| 16:11:05 | chu | and rester |
| 16:11:08 | chu | reset |
| 16:11:27 | [Saint] | at 2.4V its probably trying to spin the disk and giving up. |
| 16:11:36 | [Saint] | rinse, repeat. |
| 16:11:53 | chu | I used the adapter come with gigabeat |
| 16:11:54 | | Quit B4gder (Quit: Konversation terminated!) |
| 16:12:57 | chu | even when I used the battery |
| 16:13:06 | mc2739 | oh, you are looking for the one that colors the log files? |
| 16:13:07 | chu | the voltage aound 3.78V |
| 16:13:11 | chu | the same happen |
| 16:13:39 | [Saint] | Oh, hmmm. |
| 16:16:19 | chu | after i install the new hdd the access time of the new hdd is very low |
| 16:17:00 | chu | copy a file to the gigabeat at 2MB/s |
| 16:17:41 | chu | if I try to open a ape file then quickly change to a nother ape it hang up |
| 16:17:43 | chu | and reset |
| 16:17:48 | | Quit milk (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 16:24:53 | pamaury | god, ld is really doing crap, it doesn't follow the orders ! |
| 16:26:39 | n1s | usually the orders you give are not what you think they are in that situation IME |
| 16:26:55 | | Join WalkGood [0] (~WalkGood@unaffiliated/walkgood) |
| 16:26:58 | n1s | or some obscure rule or default has kicked in for whatever reason |
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| 16:36:34 | chu | do you have any idea what happened to my gigabeat ? |
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| 18:05:05 | pamaury | weird, my bootloader is failing at loading the rockbox binary but works like a charm in usb mode :-/ |
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| 18:46:58 | preglow | any android hackers here? |
| 18:47:09 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 18:47:26 | [Saint] | best just to ask your question straight. |
| 18:48:53 | preglow | just wondering how up to date installToolChain.sh is, it seems it needs a quick fix substituting platform-tool for platform-tools, but i have no idea if that will break on some other sdks or whatever, so i won't just shotgun commit a fix |
| 18:49:34 | * | [Saint] reviews the recent commit. |
| 18:50:37 | [Saint] | preglow: How up-to-date is your checkout? |
| 18:50:46 | preglow | just updated it |
| 18:51:28 | [Saint] | and where are you seeing "platform-tool"? |
| 18:51:36 | | Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 18:51:55 | | Join milk [0] (~milk@94-193-93-226.zone7.bethere.co.uk) |
| 18:52:03 | preglow | just grep for platform-tools in the script |
| 18:52:10 | preglow | change that to platform-tool and it'll actually work |
| 18:52:23 | [Saint] | Oh, right...did you mean the reverse of your initial statement? |
| 18:52:30 | preglow | if not, whatever program installtoolchain calls to update the sdk errors out |
| 18:52:37 | preglow | possibly :> |
| 18:52:47 | preglow | platform-tool is correct |
| 18:53:03 | [Saint] | commit, I advised from memory. "platform-tool" is indeed correct. |
| 18:53:15 | preglow | ok |
| 18:53:19 | [Saint] | my "s" was indeed in error. |
| 18:53:41 | preglow | i'll just allow the procedure to finish in case there's more |
| 18:54:09 | [Saint] | Wait...no |
| 18:54:10 | [Saint] | don't |
| 18:54:15 | preglow | ok :> |
| 18:54:56 | [Saint] | I failed again...it _should_ be correct. I was looking at another folder I'd named (for too) similarly ;) |
| 18:55:08 | preglow | heh |
| 18:55:16 | [Saint] | "platform=tools" *is* correct for the current SDK |
| 18:55:22 | preglow | in which case it just failed on android anyway, i had to change it top platform-tool |
| 18:55:25 | preglow | eh |
| 18:55:26 | [Saint] | s/=/-/ |
| 18:55:28 | preglow | on os x |
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| 18:58:27 | preglow | so |
| 18:58:38 | preglow | if i run it as is, it fails with the following: |
| 18:58:53 | preglow | Error: unknown package filter type 'platform-tools'. |
| 18:59:10 | preglow | Accepted values are: [add-on, doc, extra, platform, platform-tool, sample, tool] |
| 19:00 |
| 19:02:40 | | Quit [Saint] (Disconnected by services) |
| 19:02:41 | | Join S_a_i_n_t [0] (~st.lasciv@119.224.108.127) |
| 19:02:46 | S_a_i_n_t | we should (in theory) only care about SDKr12 |
| 19:02:54 | | Nick S_a_i_n_t is now known as [Saint] (~st.lasciv@119.224.108.127) |
| 19:02:56 | preglow | which is what just got downloaded |
| 19:03:51 | * | [Saint] only has "platform-tools" in his SDK |
| 19:04:01 | preglow | android-sdk_r12-mac_x86.zsip |
| 19:04:07 | [Saint] | the SDK readme also refers to "platform-tools" |
| 19:04:30 | [Saint] | perhaps the mac version is doing something crazy... |
| 19:04:49 | preglow | perhaps |
| 19:05:19 | preglow | i'm running tools/android straight from the dir the installer put it into, so no chance of the wrong binary being run |
| 19:06:33 | * | [Saint] is looking at the windows SDK he downloaded ~4 days ago, and its definitely "platform-tools" there. |
| 19:07:50 | preglow | shrug |
| 19:09:11 | preglow | anyway, my decision not to commit was obviously the right one :P |
| 19:10:46 | [Saint] | checked my logs |
| 19:10:58 | [Saint] | looks like this script needs another case, to check for macs |
| 19:11:13 | [Saint] | Windows and Linux are using "platform-tools" |
| 19:11:37 | [Saint] | (this occured for someone else less than a week ago) |
| 19:13:08 | [Saint] | if you look at r30431, we didn't check for platform-tools, or platform-tool. just platform, and tool |
| 19:13:27 | preglow | myeah |
| 19:14:32 | * | [Saint] isn't sure how sane sownloading all API versions is anyway ;) |
| 19:14:40 | [Saint] | aren't at least 2 of them depricated? ;) |
| 19:14:49 | [Saint] | *downloading |
| 19:14:54 | saratoga | is there any demonstration out there of what the new list code can do? |
| 19:15:24 | [Saint] | saratoga: G+ has a visual demo. |
| 19:15:35 | [Saint] | other than that, just the commit and the patch. |
| 19:15:50 | * | [Saint] hasn't had a chance to play with it yet. |
| 19:16:34 | saratoga | is there a link to the demo? |
| 19:16:50 | | Join bieber [0] (~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com) |
| 19:17:22 | * | [Saint] can't seem to figure out how to link to a specific post... |
| 19:17:35 | [Saint] | https://plus.google.com/102969486368377382090/posts?hl=en is the best I can do, apparently. |
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| 19:18:28 | [Saint] | Other than that, afaik, the only documentation resides in the commit log, and the patch itself. |
| 19:18:28 | preglow | [Saint]: yeah, that did seem a bit overkill, heh |
| 19:21:55 | bluebrother | issues with the Android SDK on OS X? |
| 19:23:05 | [Saint] | bluebrother: Apparently. |
| 19:23:26 | [Saint] | Can you confirm that OSX's SDK is using the dir "platform-tool"? |
| 19:23:40 | bluebrother | I'm using it on OS X (my other machine) as a build client. |
| 19:23:42 | bluebrother | I'll check |
| 19:23:59 | bluebrother | but I'm rather sure it does |
| 19:24:03 | | Quit jordan` (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:24:31 | [Saint] | Not that I distrust preglow... not at all. I just want to know that InstallToolchain.sh didn't do something "very weird(TM)" |
| 19:25:37 | bluebrother | hmm, not sure if I used that to install the toolchain or did it manually. It's been a while since I installed that. |
| 19:25:49 | [Saint] | If that is definitely the case, InstallToolchain needs to check what platform its on. |
| 19:26:07 | [Saint] | As Windows and Linux appear to both be using "platform-tools" |
| 19:26:18 | bluebrother | it does have platform-tools |
| 19:26:55 | bluebrother | my linux installation has more files in it, but that is likely to be caused by that installation being newer |
| 19:27:10 | bluebrother | the Mac is r10 while my Linux machine is r12 |
| 19:27:23 | preglow | check r12 |
| 19:27:31 | preglow | it's what the tool downloads |
| 19:27:53 | preglow | better yet, just run the tool |
| 19:28:14 | [Saint] | (not a great idea if you installed manually...) |
| 19:28:47 | bluebrother | gimme a bit, haven't used the Mac for Android development for some time |
| 19:28:49 | preglow | depends where he put the dirs |
| 19:29:02 | preglow | the tool tries to stuff things in ~, but that's easily changed |
| 19:29:24 | bluebrother | I've put that in a folder ~/nobackup since I want to exclude it from TimeMachine ;-) |
| 19:29:39 | bluebrother | reminds me that I need to reconfigure TimeMachine since I've reinstalled ... |
| 19:33:24 | [Saint] | argh! I am *really* failing with my grep skills tonight. |
| 19:34:00 | [Saint] | "platform-tools" is the dir destination, but "platform-tool" is the required filter. |
| 19:34:46 | preglow | now why'd they do something like that |
| 19:34:50 | bluebrother | ok, script runs. |
| 19:35:05 | [Saint] | SDK's readme certainly didn't help me there, sontinually referring to "platform-tools" |
| 19:35:11 | [Saint] | *continually |
| 19:35:34 | bluebrother | hmm, installToolchain.sh could create the install folder if it doesn't exist |
| 19:35:59 | [Saint] | so, it would seem preglow, you're correct. And I was right to agree with you initially ;) |
| 19:36:25 | | Quit WalkGood (Quit: caminabien) |
| 19:37:17 | bluebrother | ok, breaks with unknown package filter error |
| 19:37:24 | [Saint] | but, if the script runs for bluebrother...there's some weird foo going on. |
| 19:37:27 | [Saint] | Ah, good. |
| 19:37:44 | bluebrother | that platform-tools has been added just recently to the script IIRC |
| 19:38:01 | [Saint] | Yeah, silly me advising from memory. |
| 19:38:03 | bluebrother | let's try it on linux ... |
| 19:38:18 | [Saint] | bluebrother: No point. |
| 19:38:55 | bluebrother | so it's just a wrong filter in the script and not related to OS X? |
| 19:39:02 | [Saint] | correct. |
| 19:39:08 | bluebrother | good |
| 19:39:19 | [Saint] | I need better grep skills, and a better memory, apparently. |
| 19:39:46 | bluebrother | but calling the folder platform-tools and the filter platform-tool is a bit ... weird. |
| 19:40:33 | [Saint] | amen. that's what confused the hell out of me a second time. The first time was me calling a totally unrelated folder platform-tool by sheer chance ;) |
| 19:40:39 | | Join Horscht [0] (~Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht) |
| 19:41:40 | * | bluebrother finds some old patch |
| 19:42:48 | bluebrother | what do people think about changing the sim to use png for the background image instead of bmp? Makes the file much smaller, but adds a dependency on SDL_image |
| 19:44:10 | [Saint] | what do you mean by "background image"? the skin engine, or the "player" image? |
| 19:44:19 | preglow | which will make things harder the windows crew |
| 19:44:21 | bluebrother | the "player" image |
| 19:44:57 | [Saint] | preglow: It will? |
| 19:45:22 | preglow | unless binaries are floating around: probably |
| 19:45:28 | preglow | it depends on libpng and the like |
| 19:45:32 | preglow | enter autotools hell |
| 19:45:35 | bluebrother | hmm, I wanted to try compiling the sim using mingw-cross-env. |
| 19:45:51 | | Quit stoffel (Read error: Operation timed out) |
| 19:46:39 | bluebrother | hmpf. configure assumes mingw is i586-mingw32msvc |
| 19:47:18 | [Saint] | bluebrother: As long as you're not breaking theme testing with the sim, I care not about it, and am not qualified to comment ;) |
| 19:47:53 | [Saint] | ...though, theme testing withthe sim is kinda useless as of ~1+ years now. |
| 19:47:57 | | Quit bluebrother (Disconnected by services) |
| 19:47:58 | | Join bluebroth3r [0] (~dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother) |
| 19:48:16 | [Saint] | its a simple pass/fail now. No more nice debug output. |
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| 19:50:54 | | Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 19:51:39 | bluebroth3r | mingw-cross-env has SDL and SDL_image |
| 19:51:57 | | Join fs-bluebot [0] (~fs-bluebo@g226068205.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:52:26 | * | bluebroth3r tries |
| 19:53:11 | | Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5) |
| 19:56:22 | Buschel | I would like to commit FS #12261, but I would like to have a review of somebody who has more experience with makefile conditions |
| 19:56:23 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12261 -fgnu89-inline breaks Cygwin build (bugs, new) |
| 19:57:59 | | Quit casainho_ (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830202826]) |
| 19:59:41 | bluebroth3r | hmm, looks good so far. Had to add a bunch of linker flags though. |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:00 | * | bluebroth3r fires up Windos VM |
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| 20:02:10 | bluebroth3r | works fine for me :) |
| 20:02:28 | | Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) |
| 20:04:33 | bluebroth3r | we should make the sim build with mingw-cross-env directly. That makes it quite easy to install a cross compiler for Windows |
| 20:10:42 | | Join wodz [0] (~wodz@87-206-240-131.dynamic.chello.pl) |
| 20:10:42 | bluebroth3r | hmm, though the binaries (mingw-cross-env links statically) get a lot bigger |
| 20:11:06 | bluebroth3r | shouldn't matter much if we use that for integrating the mingw sim into the build system, should it? |
| 20:12:56 | Zagor | no, we don't upload the sims anyway |
| 20:19:40 | | Quit ruskie (Excess Flood) |
| 20:22:32 | bluebroth3r | how does Debian install the mingw sdl-config? configure doesn't prepend a crosscompile prefix but mingw-cross-env uses one |
| 20:27:44 | | Quit Strife89 (Quit: Heading home.) |
| 20:30:12 | bluebroth3r | hmm, has Debian a package for that? I can't find one on packages.debian.org |
| 20:36:59 | CIA-14 | New commit by buschel (r30467): Fix FS #12261. Only set '-fgnu89-inline' if GCC >= 4.1.3 is used. |
| 20:37:55 | * | Buschel crosses fingers |
| 20:40:10 | CIA-14 | r30467 build result: All green |
| 20:43:02 | | Quit [Saint] (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
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| 20:44:25 | Poodlemastah | Has anyone tried line out with an ipod classic? |
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| 21:00 |
| 21:03:33 | | Quit Buschel (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 21:17:16 | Buschel | anything speaking against FS #12258? |
| 21:17:17 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12258 Do not use -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections for mingw builds (patches, new) |
| 21:17:44 | gevaerts | Buschel: I'm sure the build system will speak up if it has objections :( |
| 21:17:46 | gevaerts | :) |
| 21:18:24 | * | Buschel was somehow expexting a similar answer by gevaerts ;) |
| 21:18:55 | | Join robin0800_ [0] (~robin0800@genld-224-242.t-mobile.co.uk) |
| 21:21:59 | CIA-14 | New commit by buschel (r30468): Submit FS #12258. Do not use '-ffunction-sections' and '-fdata-sections' when compiling. Fixes compiler warnings for mingw and cygwin simulatior ... |
| 21:24:25 | CIA-14 | r30468 build result: All green |
| 21:24:29 | * | Buschel just recognizes the commit message is misleading... |
| 21:24:50 | Buschel | of course the cmopiler settings are only disabled for sdl-sim builds |
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| 21:54:37 | mc2739 | Zagor: the build table is not updating again - it seems to be stuck at r30465 |
| 21:58:17 | Zagor | indeed |
| 21:58:42 | bluebroth3r | any debian user around that can look up how mingw's sdl-config is installed? |
| 21:59:50 | * | ukleinek uses Debian, what should I do? |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:14 | bluebroth3r | how does Debian install sdl-config for MinGW? As i586-mingw32msvc-sdl-config? |
| 22:00:21 | bluebroth3r | (or something like that) |
| 22:00:44 | Zagor | as far as I can see, Debian doesn't install mingw sdl |
| 22:01:00 | ukleinek | Zagor: yeah, I think so, too |
| 22:01:13 | bluebroth3r | I'm looking at configure and it calls sdl-config without any cross compiler prefix. When building the w32 sim using mingw-cross-env it installs sdl-config as i686-pc-mingw32-sdl-config |
| 22:01:18 | gevaerts | Last time I used mingw on debian (a few years ago...) I compiled sdl myself |
| 22:01:32 | bluebroth3r | hmm, how does sdl-config work on Debian then? configure does call it |
| 22:01:47 | Zagor | sdl is available, but not mingw-sdl |
| 22:02:52 | bluebroth3r | so will cross compiling break if I add a cross prefix to sdl-config? |
| 22:04:00 | Zagor | how do you mean? |
| 22:04:05 | * | bluebroth3r isn't sure if he gets findsdl() correctly |
| 22:04:47 | bluebroth3r | configure has findsdl() which looks after sdl-config. If I now make it search for ${CROSS}sdl-config it won't be able to find it in that case. |
| 22:06:02 | bluebroth3r | that's what I'm doing: http://pastebin.com/tjmdHKJN |
| 22:06:51 | bluebroth3r | hmm, I've missed the non-crosscompiling case :o |
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| 22:47:14 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 22:54:07 | kugel | bluebroth3r: my sdl-config isn't prefixed |
| 22:56:28 | bluebroth3r | kugel: you're referring to the cross compile one? |
| 22:56:37 | kugel | yes |
| 22:57:00 | bluebroth3r | and there's no prefixed symlink? |
| 22:57:10 | kugel | it's in $HOME/.mingw32-sdl/bin/, and I need to change PATH before running configure |
| 22:57:21 | kugel | no, but I could do that :) |
| 22:57:34 | bluebroth3r | hmm. |
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| 22:58:13 | kugel | n |
| 22:58:16 | bluebroth3r | mingw-cross-env installes a prefixed version into usr/bin, and a non-prefixed one into usr/i686-pc-mingw32/bin |
| 22:58:23 | kugel | I compiled it myself |
| 22:58:25 | bluebroth3r | (below its folder) |
| 22:58:45 | bluebroth3r | I guess I should check the mingw-cross-env Makefiles about that a bit then |
| 22:58:48 | kugel | mingw-cross-env? |
| 22:59:17 | bluebroth3r | a project that is a build environment for cross compiling for windows |
| 22:59:28 | kugel | never heard of that |
| 22:59:30 | bluebroth3r | i.e. it builds all stuff you need for cross compiling |
| 22:59:43 | bluebroth3r | I'm using that for creating svn binaries of Rockbox Utility :) |
| 22:59:54 | bluebroth3r | http://mingw-cross-env.nongnu.org/ |
| 23:00 |
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| 23:16:41 | rinaku | May I ask a (my) question again for people who weren't there 9h ago? I wanted to know, given that Rockbox (on my Sansa Clip+) won't read some AAC/MP4 files of mine, if there is something clever to do about it of if I have to convert all my files to Vorbis. |
| 23:17:39 | CIA-14 | r30468 build result: 8 errors, 0 warnings (buschel committed) |
| 23:17:39 | Zagor | rinaku: are they drm-limited? |
| 23:17:47 | rinaku | Zagor: no |
| 23:17:57 | rinaku | Zagor: VLC reads them perfectly for example |
| 23:18:34 | rinaku | (*exept* if I give them an .aac extension, wich I find strange but I'm not sure this is related) |
| 23:18:39 | rinaku | except* |
| 23:18:55 | rinaku | which* |
| 23:18:57 | rinaku | sorry |
| 23:19:22 | bluebroth3r | hmm, Fedora's mingw packages also don't provide a prefixed sdl-config. I guess we just need to try both :) |
| 23:19:47 | wodz | rinaku: any special tags like album art embedded or something? |
| 23:20:23 | n1s | rinaku: what do you mean by "won't read"? |
| 23:20:49 | rinaku | wodz: only "title" and "editor" (vlc) |
| 23:20:56 | rinaku | n1s: skips |
| 23:20:57 | n1s | also .aac files are usually raw aac streams and not the same as m4a/mp4 |
| 23:21:34 | n1s | rinaku: skips in the audio or does it skip the files entirely? |
| 23:21:53 | | Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.55=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.) |
| 23:22:14 | rinaku | n1s: it skips the files entirely |
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| 23:23:29 | Llorean | How were those AAC files created, and how long are they? |
| 23:23:51 | | Quit Horscht (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 23:25:33 | rinaku | Llorean: I get H264/AAC/MP4 files (from YouTube for example) and I convert them with VLC to AAC/MP4, i.e. with no video and keeping the original audio track |
| 23:26:08 | rinaku | the one I have in front of me is 03:28 long |
| 23:26:42 | | Quit balintx (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:27:23 | Llorean | One problem we've seen is that, unless this has changed, MP4/AAC files that Rockbox can play need to be optimized for streaming. I'm not sure what tools are typically used to do this, but your conversion process may not take this into account. |
| 23:28:19 | rinaku | Llorean: optimized at wich level? codec or container? |
| 23:29:03 | rinaku | Llorean: if codec: wouldn't youtube videos be optimized for streaming? |
| 23:29:21 | Llorean | Container. |
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| 23:31:43 | rinaku | Oh. Never heard of that. I'll try to do that |
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| 23:37:33 | n1s | Llorean: rinaku: pretty sure people have used fb2k for that, never done it myself though |
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| 23:40:55 | rinaku | n1s: I would prefer a native Linux solution... |
| 23:47:47 | | Part Zagor |
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