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#rockbox log for 2011-09-07

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00:14:42EvanCarrollthe fuze has a detachable screen
00:14:53EvanCarrollyou can replace it fairly easily
00:17:51fredreichbierEvanCarroll, really? but well, i would need a replacement screen :D
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00:20:03EvanCarrollyou can get a 2gb fuze v2 for like 10.00
00:20:07EvanCarrollbackup body too
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00:35:28fredreichbierEvanCarroll, sounds like an idea! thanks, will think abozut it!
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00:36:56fredreichbierthank you all! good night
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06:41:51[Saint]kugel: A little late perhaps...but, how?
06:42:21[Saint]The fact that you *can* create .nomedia from within RaaA doesn't mean (IMO) thaat one *should* have to.
06:42:27[Saint]It should just be there.
06:46:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:51:25Topic"3.9.1 released! | Please read before speaking: | Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community | This channel is logged at" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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07:52:29Llorean[Saint]: I imagine because .nomedia can contain anything he was thinking about something like just creating an empty playlist named it, or something.
07:54:02*[Saint] isn't sure that .nomedia.m3u(8) would work...
07:54:26[Saint]Oh...I guess it could be renamed an the extension stripped, though.
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08:14:11*[Saint] frowns at,28799.msg184445.html#msg184445
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08:15:28[Saint]BEcause he worked hard.
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08:54:28ukleinekJdGordon: I wonder if you have "ipoo" in your forum signature on purpose
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08:54:54JdGordoni most certainly do!
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09:00:38wodzukleinek: how is bootloader dump going?
09:01:50ukleinekwodz: good morning. I got sidetracked yesterday evening, up to now I only saw the dram init block.
09:02:32wodzukleinek: could you share it? I would like to compare it to what I have
09:02:34God_Eaterhas there been any movement on Torne's plan?
09:02:49ukleinekwodz: I can provide you blocks 4 to 23, havn't decrypted them yet
09:03:02ukleinekwodz: one sed
09:03:06JdGordonGod_Eater: give him a few min to breath aye? :)
09:03:28God_EaterJdGordon: as I understand it, the onus isn't on him currently ;)
09:03:41God_Eaterhe's written the plan, he needs our swedish overlords input now
09:03:49JdGordonthats how i understand it also :)
09:03:58wodz4 contains s1 so this is very interesting. Others are not so unless you merge them into final binary (as this is rather boring process :-))
09:04:29God_Eateralthough I think I can probably help with step 1 too
09:04:39God_Eaterif anyone needs me to
09:05:00ZagorNotice! I'm upgrading the web server. Everyone on cgiirc will be temporarily disconnected.
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09:06:30ukleinekwodz: they are now at the usual place, named flash0_${firstblock}_${lastblock} and contain data + spare
09:06:31wodzI think the most crucial part now is to prepare documentation
09:07:05wodzukleinek: this are raw dumps or decrypted?
09:07:47wodzSo basicaly we need to start work on 4) from Torne's plan.
09:08:04ukleinekwodz: raw
09:08:13JdGordonmy guess is alot of 3) can be done before the move also
09:08:21JdGordonnot commited, but done
09:08:41God_EaterJdGordon: well volunteered that man
09:08:43God_Eaterget to work
09:08:51God_Eateryou just became Mr. Someone.
09:09:19*God_Eater volunteers [Saint] for the theming work
09:09:32JdGordonerr... I'm sure there are script monkeys who want to help :)
09:09:47[Saint]*what* themeing work?
09:10:02[Saint]themeing? theming?
09:10:07ZagorI think most of 3) lands on me
09:10:07JdGordonthemeing gerrit
09:10:11God_Eatersee Torne's email to the dev list
09:10:35JdGordonZagor: isnt it mostly s/svn/git/ ?
09:10:46JdGordonjust changing commands?
09:11:27God_Eaterspoken like a true git novice =/
09:12:01ZagorI expect it to be a little more. but I absolutely am accepting help.
09:12:14*God_Eater shoves JdGordon in the back again
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09:13:23Zagorfor instance, the build system is designed around a number revision number...
09:13:55God_Eateris there anything we can do with git metadata to make that a bit less painful?
09:14:28[Saint]there's not exactly a heck of a lot of work to do "themeing" gerrit...what, like 2 shades of blue (the website's blue right?) and throw a logo up. done ;)
09:14:42*[Saint] squints.
09:14:43Zagornah, I'll just tweak it to support a proper string instead. it doesn't actually parse the value much.
09:14:48[Saint]Yeah...looks blue to me.
09:15:03wodzukleinek: s1 from your player differs from any s1's I have collected so far. I'll need to look in dissasm to see what's the difference
09:16:00God_EaterZagor: "is the revision reference different from the previous one? If yes, rebuild" ?
09:16:23Zagornot even that, it builds whatever you send it
09:16:29ukleinekZagor: you can use git rev-list HEAD | wc -l
09:16:45JdGordongit pull origin; git check <hash>; build
09:16:50JdGordonwheres the issue? :)
09:17:00God_EaterJdGordon: see? You're mostly done ;)
09:17:35JdGordonah, you're in managment are you?
09:17:57JdGordonI could swear the pm's here dont actually *do* anything
09:18:21God_Eaternot management
09:18:29God_Eaterbut I know how it's done
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09:34:31B4gderI'm not doing much rockbox dev these days personally so I won't speak up about this much, but requiring review before push seems like a new layer of bureaucracy we're not used to having and I don't see the need for it
09:35:14B4gderfrom existing experienced committers I mean
09:35:37[Saint]It stops controversial or "ninja" commits.
09:35:49B4gderyes, it also stops all other quick commits
09:36:36wodzI expressed my feeling in mail, while this may be ok for general rb work what will be the added value when working on new port?
09:36:47[Saint]A small price to pay to ensure a developer can't just do "Ah fuck it, I want this so its going in even though I know its controversial"
09:36:55[Saint]of course...then that could just be reverted.
09:36:56B4gderI agree with you wodz, but I wouldn't want it as a rule for "normal" either
09:37:26*Llorean thinks it's surprising that one of the people who complains most about things being "slow" wants to add that layer.
09:37:36wodzB4gder: me too, but I can see some benefits at least
09:37:38B4gderit'll just make committers more annoyed when nobody has reviewed it in a while and the queue piles up
09:37:59B4gderthen all of a sudden we have a review-queue problem
09:38:30LloreanI think ninja commits aren't typically a problem.
09:38:33B4gderimho, it's a fix for a problem we don't have
09:39:00LloreanThere have been occasions where there's been a reversion. And one or two threats of "if you don't do it my way, I'll make other changes" and such. But over all, most people knowing that their commit could be reverted will try to talk it through first.
09:39:02[Saint]Llorean: Only becasue the pre-discussion has created a hugle flamewar first ;)
09:39:03wodzanyway thats for revert is
09:39:09[Saint]if they stopped discussing...
09:39:25God_Eaterit's a pointless thing to enforce in my opinion
09:39:44God_Eaterif you have a patch you think *needs* review, then submit it to the gerrit review queue yourself
09:39:51God_Eateryou don't *have* to commit directly to master
09:40:07LloreanI don't think there's any gain from *forcing* review.
09:40:11God_Eaterbut forcing review of all commits is stupid
09:41:09LloreanThough if it were finer grained, such as "forcing review to all files outside this folder" for something like brand new committers who are brought in to work on, say, a new port, that's different. That could be discussed, I think.
09:41:15LloreanI still think, though, that that would show a lack of trust.
09:42:01LloreanYou give someone commit access if you trust them. If you stop trusting them to use commit access responsibly, you take it away. If they're irresponsible, they should just submit patches. That *is* the forced review process.
09:42:17[Saint]Yes, even for regular committers. Its still possible they may fuck something up that someone else will notice easily.
09:42:37[Saint]Perhaps we wouldn't have bootloaders in SVN that brick devices if this happened earlier.
09:43:40God_Eater[Saint]: I'm completely against *enforced* review for people who are already trusted committers.
09:43:49God_Eaterthose people get commit access for a reason
09:43:59[Saint]I don't see the review as a bad thing, as I think that there _should_ be enough people around for the review process to take a trivial time.
09:44:09*Llorean wasn't aware we had bootloaders that brick devices.
09:44:09God_EaterI trust them to know *if* they think something they're commiting needs review or not
09:44:24wodzI see only one true potential benefit. One can imagine that uploaded patches in gerrit gets automatically applied in branch and proofed to compile on all targets.
09:44:33God_EaterLlorean: H300 bootloader has been unusable for about 2 years now.
09:44:42[Saint]Llorean: there certainly are. "bootloader" I think, though.
09:44:45God_Eater(if you build from source that is)
09:44:53God_Eaterthe ones we have for download are fine of course
09:45:02LloreanGod_Eater: Yeah, if you build from source. But we have a tagged good revision.
09:45:11*God_Eater just said that ;)
09:45:42LloreanWouldn't it be somewhat crazy to reflash an H300 for every change that *might* affect the bootloader? We've got, what, one or two people who can do that safely?
09:45:43God_Eater[Saint]: the point there though is just reviewing the patch that caused that wouldn't tell you it was okay to flash
09:45:53[Saint]My point was...*perhaps* (not definitely) that might not be the case if a review system was in place.
09:45:53God_EaterLlorean: only one I believe
09:45:59God_Eaterand he's still too busy to really get involved.
09:46:06[Saint]that must have been a "trusted" committer that broke this, no?
09:46:08God_Eater[Saint]: there *is* a review system in place
09:46:24God_Eaterit's just not enforced, and I don't want it enforced.
09:46:56Llorean[Saint]: I seriously doubt anyone would've caught it in advance without flashing every revision along the way, given how much time was spent on it and past devcons without being able to fix it.
09:47:33God_Eater[Saint]: it was completely impossible to tell it was going to brick a device. And only a trusted committer found out it did.
09:47:52God_Eaterand we *still* don't know which revision broke it
09:48:10wodzthe problem with h300 bootloader seems to be that binary size increase caused to cross some magic border. This something you cannot catch by patch review
09:48:53wodzgevaerts: got my TBLCF BDM pod so start bugging him :-)
09:49:51gevaertswodz: LinusN has my irivers now to make them BDM-ready, so I have an excuse :)
09:49:53[Saint]Well, I'm by no means saying I don't understand why its contentious. I do. Nothing changes for me, anything I want committed needs to be reviewed at this point, and that won't change for, yeah, I can see why its upsetting.
09:50:00LloreanAll a review phase would do would be to share the blame when some bad commit came through
09:50:19LloreanMaking people timid to commit things outside their area of expertise, making it *harder* for people working on less popular bits.
09:50:49God_Eaterthe number of "bad commits" we've had over the project lifecycle..... why, I can't think of more than about 3.
09:50:58God_Eaterthis would be a complete waste of time imo
09:51:16LloreanIt doesn't make accidental bad commits much less likely. They're very, very rare as it is, and wouldn't be reduced without on-device testing and that would slow things down dramatically.
09:51:33LloreanIt does make intentional bad/contentious commits less likely. Those aren't going to happen anyway with trusted people.
09:51:34wodzgevaerts: oh, come on soldering to sockets is not an excuse
09:51:40[Saint]I think the point is that it gives people the opportunity to say "hey, there's a better way to do this", is it not?
09:51:44*God_Eater proposes we forget JdGordon's silli suggestion and just move on.
09:51:46LloreanIt does make *good* commits more of a headache though.
09:52:12God_Eater[Saint]: no it doesn't - it would encourage exactly the opposite.
09:52:21God_EaterPeople would get blase about the review system
09:52:41[Saint]If they reject it from the beginning...yeah, I guess.
09:52:45God_Eateror we'd end up in an even WORSE situation of patch rot than we're in now with flyspray.
09:52:47wodzI guess the proposition whas cause because Jd often asks for test/review and nobody cares really.
09:53:11LloreanHe said on the thread that review wouldn't even be necessary.
09:53:22LloreanWhich basically makes it a blame-sharing system rather than a review system.
09:53:23God_Eaterwhich makes the whole thing pointless
09:53:52Zagorwodz: that is an issue we should try to address, but not by enforcing review
09:54:51God_EaterI find it hysterical that it's Jd that asks for this, since even when he *gets* his review, if the result isn't favourable to what he wants to achieve, he loses his rag
09:55:17wodzZagor: agreed - the only solution I see is to force Saint to 'speak' C fluently
09:55:24LloreanGod_Eater: I was figuring out how to diplomatically say "Does he really think forcing someone to commit his stuff for him is going to get *more* of his stuff in?"
09:55:27gevaertswodz: maybe it isn't, but right now that doesn't really matter since the stuff isn't at my place
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09:55:34God_EaterLlorean: hahahaha
09:55:46God_EaterI hadn't considered that point
09:56:18[Saint]wodz: ;)
09:57:41[Saint]WHen he asks me for review, its never about the code (maybe if tags are sane, or could be better), but rather about "Can I manage to break his new toy with unexpected syntax"
09:59:38God_Eater[Saint]: of course that's about the code
10:00:01God_Eaterit might not be asking you to check his pointer arithmetic personally, but you're still reviewing the functionality he's attempting to implement.
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10:04:22God_Eaterso far, as usual, JdGordon seems to be in a minority of one.
10:08:39wodzZagor: any plans to allow testing patches on buildfarm?
10:09:09Zagornothing more than discussions, no
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10:11:33JdGordLlorean you fucking moron, requiring a shipit would make controversial changes harder to get in
10:11:44 Quit JdGord (Client Quit)
10:13:11LloreanEloquent and civil as always, that man.
10:14:36LloreanFor the record, I've explicitly said that while a change may be controversial, it's still up to the committer to make the decision whether or not to override objections and commit. I've told him directly that he should feel free to ignore my objections if he's sure they're invalid on multiple occasions.
10:15:17LloreanThat's why I'm in favor of not having the forced review. Whether or not I agree with all commits, I think that as long as someone has commit access, they have a right to the final decision on their work's commit.
10:15:20B4gderI really don't think that attitude and language is acceptable
10:15:22God_EaterJdGordon is getting too offensive recently. Seriously needs to wind his neck in.
10:16:14wodzanyway speculating that "Does he really think forcing someone to commit his stuff for him is going to get *more* of his stuff in?" is a bit unfair in the context of this discussion
10:16:27n1swhile i'm not much in favour of forced reviews it might be interesting to test them and see what happens
10:16:59[Saint]wodz: I *think* that was where the objection came from.
10:17:09[Saint]I would have probably taken that rather badly also.
10:17:22[Saint](regardless of its intent)
10:18:07LloreanIt's a mathematical certainty though. If you add in another step at which something can be rejected, more stuff will be rejected. You certainly can't *increase* the commit rate by adding a step that can only reduce it.
10:18:40wodzLlorean: so why the hell you said something like quoted above?
10:18:51[Saint]Did anyone suggest it would be increased?
10:18:53LloreanGiven that his view on Rockbox development is that A) It's too slow, and B) things keep getting in his way to including stuff, adding *another* thing isn't very wise from that perspective.
10:19:45Llorean[Saint]: No. My point was simply that he's going contrary to his normal perspective on 'problems with Rockbox development'
10:19:53LloreanI really don't see how saying "that's not his normal tune on the issue" is offensive at all.
10:20:08[Saint]...which is why it was really big of him to be the one to suggest such a thing.
10:20:09wodzLlorean: the point is that your statement sounds a bit offensive - regardless of how he behave
10:21:41wodzIt's the matter of wording probably
10:22:04Llorean[Saint]: Yes, and when I went contrary to my perceived view, and suggested in the email that it's bad, he responded by calling me a moron. And yet I'm getting lectured?
10:22:28[Saint]You are?
10:22:39LloreanYou're both complaining about what I said far more than you've complained about what he said.
10:22:42God_Eateryes, by you and wodz
10:22:43LloreanIt certainly feels like a lecture.
10:23:26[Saint]I was simply stating how it could be percieved, as I'm pretty sure wodz is also. I don't claim to agree or disagree.
10:23:30God_Eaterlooks like one too from where I'm standing
10:24:09God_EaterI don't really care how it could be perceived, Llorean didn't use offensive language.
10:24:21God_EaterJdGordon did. Unacceptable.
10:24:25wodzJd reaction is unacceptable, period. That doesn't mean that I percive Your statement (Llorean) as polite
10:24:32[Saint]I was just saying "this is why I think X happened", I don't think X was necessarily the right way to react.
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10:25:26Lloreanwodz: Given JdGordon's nearly-constantly antagonistic behaviour toward me these days, I think most people would consider a light chuckle in his direction from me in response to someone else's similar comment to him "not particularly bad"
10:26:57wodzthis discussion is pointless - you wan't take into consideration that your statement sounds unfair.
10:27:15wodzregarding Jd reaction I expressed my opinion.
10:27:36God_Eaterwodz: I'm pretty sure Llorean did just take that into consideration.
10:27:59LloreanI admit my statement wasn't wholly respectful.
10:28:08LloreanIt doesn't change the fact that I really think it wasn't particularly bad.
10:28:40wodzthats the point where we have different view, lets left this behind now
10:28:57[Saint]We've probably all blown up when taking something as it wasn't intended. Some just have smaller fuses I guess.
10:29:02[Saint]I know mine is short.
10:29:52God_EaterI think the pair of you are off your heads. JdGordon has *repeatedly* sworn at, and insulted Llorean over the past few weeks, and you're giving Llorean a hard time over a light jab back in his direction?
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10:31:00[Saint]Fwiw, I didn't mean to sound as I was lecturing Llorean at all. Nor do I personally feel as though I was. I was merely trying to offer an explanation as to why that particular reaction may have happened.
10:31:06[Saint]Whether it was jsutified or not.
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10:32:09[Saint]Llorean should know what its like to "get a hard time" from me by now, and this isn't it ;)
10:32:23LloreanI figured the response was to my email, considering the topic of it, and that he wasn't in here at the time but probably saw the email.
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10:36:42wodzGod_Eater: Didn't I expressed my view of Jd reaction explicitly? I'll express it once more - its unacceptable. Jd proposed something, which we all agreed, will make controversial changes *harder* to get in. Now presenting this proposition as a sneaky way to pushing controversial changes is unfair at best.
10:37:31LloreanI don't think I suggested that at all.
10:38:01God_Eaterno you didn't
10:38:05God_Eaterit's far from sneaky
10:38:37LloreanI don't think I suggested there was an sneaking either. What I meant to suggest is "he typically claims it's a problem that things are slow to get in, but now he's advocating a process explicitly designed to slow this down. I find this situation humorous."
10:38:39kugelFWIW, I'm also very much against forced review
10:39:08kugelit'll serve nothing, but make review pointless by making it even more annoying than it's now
10:39:15God_Eaterand that's exactly how I interpreted it Llorean
10:39:41LloreanGod_Eater: Good to know.
10:40:07LloreanI definitely did not mean to suggest or imply *any* wrongdoing on his part in regard to that statement.
10:40:17kugelI'm also surprised about JdGordon's proposal. Not surprised about the proposal itself (I think many of us had a mind-experiment wit that) but that he made it
10:40:17God_EaterI don't see how wodz interprets it differently to be honest.
10:40:26LloreanIf I want to accuse someone of wrongdoing, I'll do it explicitly and seriously. Not with a joke.
10:41:32kugeland tbh I think his intent is to share responsibility for controversial things
10:41:39wodzMy view is probably caused by the fact that english is not my native language. In polish such construction sounds cynically and offensive.
10:41:47kugel(blame-share as someone called it earler)
10:42:37kugelso JdGordon could've pointed at someone else if his main menu change got in
10:42:39God_Eaterkugel: I don't really see how *enforcing* reviews of every commit helps that. He can *still* achieve blame share for controversial commits by just submitting his work to the review system on purpose.
10:42:57God_Eatermaking every commit require review is just insanity
10:43:04Lloreankugel: That would also be me, though I was talking about that in general too. I was thinking more along the lines of "I don't want to be the person who reviews Bootloader code. Only Bob knows it, but he wrote the patch so he can't do it."
10:43:32kugelenforcing makes people to just click it away like ads, voluntary review doesn't (I hope)
10:43:41God_Eaterkugel: my view precisely
10:43:54LloreanI was thinking of it more as "because the button pusher has to share the blame, it may make some people tentative to review certain things" more than "so the committer can push the blame off on others"
10:44:04LloreanVoluntary review is good, I think. Very good.
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10:44:10God_Eaterwe'll either end up with people just clicking "yes this is fine" without really thinking about it, or we'll end up with, as gevaerts said, 3 commits a month.
10:44:16B4gderVoluntary review is very good
10:44:25kugelso it would possibly create a way to sneak in controversial changes with the feature of being able to point at someone
10:44:39B4gderor just queue them up
10:45:59kugelotoh I can also believe that JdGordon is worried thatvolunteer review doesn't change the status quo (people simply don't do review) much
10:46:20kugelbut I agree with [Saint], JdGordon isnt usually asking for review but for testing
10:46:29God_Eaterkugel: that may be true too - but introducing this change doesn't help that.
10:46:31God_Eaterit makes it worse.
10:46:51LloreanI doubt voluntary review would change things much, but it does create the opportunity where if you feel nervous about your code for any reason (touching areas you don't normally, controversy, whatever) you can put it in a place where responsibility may be more readily shared.
10:46:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:46:55God_Eaterthis is not a problem we can fix with a technical solution
10:53:25kugelbtw, I also find the constant insults of JdGordon unacceptable (not only recently, he did that always), and we should do something about it
10:53:48kugelI basically avoid discussing with him were possible because of this
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10:56:32LloreanWhat can you do about that sort of behaviour? Other than saying "you shouldn't behave that way," and I think he knows that, all you have is the threat of removing privileges. And the only one we *really* have is commit access. Is this really a "threaten to remove commit access" breach of etiquette?
11:01:04kugelfirst of all, we should show more openly that we totally don't want that behavior
11:01:29kugeland if revoking commit access is a solution we should consider it sure
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12:10:24*Torne replies to the whole review thing on the list :)
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12:45:33*JdGordon is incredibly offended by the whole discussion
12:45:43JdGordonand especially annoyed by the lack of comments from other people
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12:46:15JdGordonI dont know where the heck anyone got the suggestion that my *suggestion* had anything to do with anything other than *code comments*
12:46:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:47:10JdGordonAlso hugly pissed off that the 2 people who have the biggest voices against the thught at the begiing were God_Eater and Llorean who this wouldnt affect *at all*
12:47:24JdGordonthere arent many ties i can use my commit count against then, but if not there then wtf?
12:48:34JdGordonAnyone seriously suggesting that having a second set of eyes looking at commits is a bad thing is an idiot
12:49:53kugelstop calling other people idiots because they disagree with you
12:50:07gevaertsJdGordon: please point to *one* place where someone suggested this
12:50:39gevaertsYour style of arguing is *seriuously* offensive
12:51:21JdGordonconcidering I wasnt even around tonight and it went immeditaly personal, you know what? i dont care
12:51:45gevaertsI don't see what that has to do with what you just said
12:52:39JdGordonfrankly being accused of pushing agendas and controversial changes is pretty damn rude but noone seems to give a shit
12:52:40kugelJdGordon: if at all, it went personal after your drive-by-shoot against Llorean
12:53:09gevaertsJdGordon: putting arguments in people's mouths and then calling them idiots for it isn't rude?
12:53:25JdGordonread the log, Llorean put more than just words in my mouth
12:53:35God_EaterJdGordon: we specifically said that this *wouldn't* help you push agendas actually.
12:53:50gevaertsI'm discussing what you said in the last 10 minutes. I don't *care* what Llorean said
12:54:01JdGordonwhich frankly i find the suggestion that I have agendas pretty damn rude
12:54:55JdGordonI honestly have no idea how my 3 line email turned into this shit fight...
12:55:12JdGordonoh, other than Llorean who has about 15 commits and this wouldnt affect at all is still breathing
12:55:21God_Eaterit turned into a shit fight because you came in and called Llorean a fucking moron
12:55:42*JdGordon *was* planing on coding useful stuff like using buflib in the skin engine tonight
12:55:45JdGordonbut fuck that
12:58:40*n1s wonders if people have another definition of review than he does
13:01:10JdGordon nice and polite
13:02:06God_Eatercertainly a lot politer than you
13:02:40B4gderJdGordon: I don't know how you speak with your friends, but to many of us your language is outright offensive and does not belong here. No matter what you responded to.
13:03:11B4gderwe're all friends
13:03:27JdGordonto the latter part
13:03:30God_Eaterand calling me an asshole in private isn't awesome either
13:03:46B4gderJdGordon: I honestly believe we are
13:03:50JdGordonContrary to what you all think I am not the one that sends arguments downhill
13:04:19JdGordonif you all dont want me here then say so
13:04:30B4gder[13:03] <B4gder> we're all friends
13:05:08JdGordonits been mostly fun for me, and apart from a small handfull of people I would happily share a beer IRL, but i really do get the impression that im not wanted
13:05:18JdGordonand that my contributions have been viewed as worthless
13:05:30B4gderI'm just asking that we raise the bar a bit in our communication here
13:05:40kugelJdGordon: it's the "offensive attitude" part of you that's not wanted
13:05:57*JdGordon 's bus factor is pretty much: actions, the entire setting system, the list api, skin_engine/ menus.....
13:06:01JdGordonnothing particualry important
13:06:16JdGordonkugel: pot-kettle coming from you sir
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13:08:14God_Eaterkugel: english expression implying you do exactly the same - though I can't say I recall you as being as rude.
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13:11:13kugelJdGordon: I don't see that anyone suggested your contributions are worthless. they're very valuable in fact
13:11:30B4gdervery, I'd say
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13:13:20JdGordonwell seen as everyone is annoyed with me tonight anyway i may as well get this off my chest
13:13:38*Llorean thinks people have misunderstood my "blame-sharing" fear.
13:13:50JdGordonin just about every contentious argument, it is always Llorean who is so vehementyl against it and drags it to shit
13:14:05LloreanI don't see it as a way for someone committing to force someone to share the blame. I see it as a situation where people might not want the responsibility of reviewing someone else's work because if they don't catch something, they get caught up in it.
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13:14:22JdGordonconsidering the shere lack of contributions I find it very offensive that his loud voice gets to shout down mine
13:14:24gevaertsLlorean: I would hope that that wouldn't happen
13:15:23gevaertsJdGordon: nobody gets to shout down anyone. In fact, what some of us have been trying to say is that nobody gets to shout, period.
13:16:06JdGordonexcpe then if i were to commit something which I know would cause an argument post-commit the same thing happens
13:16:10JdGordonso whats the point?
13:16:28n1si'd expect commits for review would have the same quality that regular commits have so the bugs should be failry hard to find :) and i don't think we should start blaming reviewers for not spotting them
13:16:32JdGordonth status quo has always been that if a argument happens it stays out, which is fine
13:16:44JdGordonbut then when no discussion happens there is an argumen just as much
13:17:08God_Eatern1s: which is a noble thing, but what Llorean is suggesting is that people might perceive *themselves* as to blame for accepting a patch this way.
13:17:13JdGordonand I can pove this with other people commits
13:17:20LloreanGod_Eater: Exactly.
13:17:40n1sGod_Eater: Llorean: i just don't see that but i might be wrong
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13:17:42JdGordonsince when has anyone blamed anyone in here for a bug?
13:17:45JdGordonoutside of a joke
13:17:50God_Eatern1s: and this would lead to much fewer commits actually happening
13:17:59JdGordondoing peer code review *is* a good thing
13:18:00Lloreann1s: People often pass on reviewing patches because "I don't know that part of the code." I expect people would patch on reviewing pending commits for the same reason.
13:18:10B4gderI don't consider the "shared blame" as a big risk or real issue
13:18:11JdGordonthe fact that non contributers are shouting it down is very rude
13:18:34JdGordonif we had an actuall discusison and decided against it fine
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13:18:36LloreanJdGordon: I personally think it's rude to define someone as a non-contributor simply because their contributions haven't been code.
13:18:44JdGordonbut outright saying ignore it is just damn rude
13:18:45n1swhich is why i would like us to try it and see what happens
13:19:04*Torne notes that *he* hasn't committed anything for a while either, and hopes that doesn't make him a non-contributor
13:19:13*B4gder hasn't committed in ages
13:19:19God_Eatern1s: you're perfectly free to try it - submit everything you want to refs/for/master
13:19:22JdGordonI'm also sure gerrit can be made to allow the contributer do the shipit after X hours
13:19:39God_EaterI just don't want you saying I have to do the same
13:19:41TorneJdGordon: gerrit actually allows you to approve your own changes :)
13:19:45JdGordonanyone with more than a few odzen commits *ever* is a contributer on my book
13:19:46Tornejust whenever.
13:19:49TorneSo, yeah
13:19:51JdGordonso fine then
13:19:51LloreanJdGordon: If an "after X hours" were in place, *almost nobody* would review, because there'd be no reason they'd have to.
13:20:07JdGordonpeer review is not a bad procedure
13:20:18JdGordonand I know im going to be affected by this omre than th epeope complaining
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13:20:23God_EaterJdGordon: but you even said in your email that no review was required!
13:20:24B4gderpeer review is awesome
13:20:30Tornethere is literally zero point in requiring everyone to upload stuff for review if you are also going to say it's okay for them to approve their own stuff
13:20:36LloreanActual review isn't what's going to happen here, in a lot of cases.
13:20:58Tornewhy don't we, yaknow, switch to new tools first
13:21:04Torneand then *see if people actually do reviews*
13:21:07Torneand then discuss it then
13:21:09n1si still think people have too much preconcieved oppinions about what will happen
13:21:17Tornen1s: exactly
13:21:31*JdGordon just wanted to have the talk
13:21:43LloreanJdGordon: And we did have the talk, *mostly* fairly civilly.
13:21:45JdGordonpeer review drives me freeking bonkers at work, but it is a good thing
13:21:47Tornethere is no point having it now, seriously
13:21:56JdGordonso when?
13:22:11JdGordononce gerrit is in place and everyone is already used to pushing directly
13:22:17LloreanAfter people are acclimatized to the new tools, and understand the workflow better and how a review step would fit into it.
13:22:19Torneyou say "used to pushing directly"
13:22:21Tornelike that's a new thing
13:22:23*[Saint] just sees the same people shooting it down at a later point.
13:22:26God_Eaterwe already *are* used to pushing directly
13:22:26TorneThis is also called "committing"
13:22:33Tornethis is what people do now
13:22:47JdGordononly because the tools dont cater for it
13:23:07Torneyou are suggesting that switching to git and allowing commits directly is a regression
13:23:12God_Eaterrubbish - we could have forced people to commit to a branch in svn, and only move to trunk when it's approved.
13:23:21JdGordondoesnt gerrit let you accept a commit directly from the web interface?
13:23:23gevaertsJdGordon: if we keep adding more things to discuss before we can switch, we won't switch
13:23:59JdGordonall this would be is literally saying "guys, i've pushed X which is pretty small, has someone got a min to ok it?"
13:24:31Tornewhich is a radical departure from our current development culture
13:24:37Tornepossibly a good one, possibly not
13:24:43Tornebut *more change at once* is rarely a good thing
13:24:50JdGordongit is a radical departure already
13:24:57Torneno it isn't.
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13:25:28Tornegit gives you the option of inventing ways of working that are radically different
13:25:34Tornebut most people don't and won't
13:25:49Tornefor most people i imagine a small shell script that pretended to be svn would be sufficient :)
13:25:54JdGordonok, so we continue having code which never gets a second look
13:26:10LloreanWhich has worked for us pretty well for many years.
13:26:12JdGordonif everyone really is ok with that then fine
13:26:17Torneyou keep saying this like "continuing to do as we are" is some terrible outcome
13:26:31JdGordonwell, it is far from ideal
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13:26:34LloreanAnd then, once everyone's settled in, we bring up the idea again, and talk about the benefits of a review process in a reasoned manner, without yelling at people who bring up ideas we disagree with.
13:26:59TorneJdGordon: by trying to force this discussion now you are letting the ideal impede *any progress at all*
13:27:21JdGordonno im not
13:27:37JdGordonyour list has it as step 4 no?
13:28:01Torneyes, and time allowing i was hoping to get there by next week or so :)
13:28:23JdGordonputting policies into affect at some random pooint later is going to go over far more smootly isnt it?
13:28:43gevaertsIt's going to work better than trying to do it now, yes
13:28:49Zagoriterative change is usually less painful than revolutionary, yes
13:28:58gevaertsBecause trying to do it now means staying with svn for another two years
13:29:00Torneyes, it will be much easier to discuss whether we want to require code review once lots of peopl ehave had a chance to try doing it
13:29:29LloreanYeah, it'd help a lot if people used the voluntary review process some, and showed in the real-world how easily it is to get things through it consistently
13:29:45TorneThat would be great: if you want to advocate that, do it
13:29:52TorneI intend to try and get my changes reviewed
13:30:04TorneI intend to review other people's changes if they are related at all to code i'm familiar with
13:30:12pamauryIf I understand correctly, you want to force discussion for *every* commit ? I can't see how this is compatible with the vast dispersion of knowledge. There are parts of the code that only afew people can really review and I would expect such people to do it anyway after the commit, that's the implicit part of being a contributor in some area of the code. Code review should be a option for the commiter
13:30:15God_EaterI will too - when, on the rare occasions I make them, I feel they warrant it
13:30:28God_Eaterthe one line change I made yesterday to "" didn't warrant it.
13:30:28JdGordonpamaury: NO! not discussion
13:30:31Lloreanpamaury: Not discussion. Just approval. By any one person other than the original committer.
13:30:43JdGordon*review*, it just needs one person to go over the code and look for SNAFU's
13:31:08JdGordonGod_Eater: so what would we have lost if it took an extra 3 min for someone else to ok it first?
13:31:18JdGordonsmall commits are jsut as likely to be wrong as big ones
13:31:33pamauryIt doesn't change my point
13:31:33God_Eater"Why? Just come in irc and ask someone to press the button. They don't need to do a full blown revue" <−− your words
13:31:35Torneit only takes an extra three minutes if people are around to do it
13:31:45JdGordonpeople are always around
13:31:52*JdGordon is in here alone more than anyone else
13:31:56Tornethe right people are frequently not around
13:32:19God_Eaterhaving just "someone" press the button is a waste of time
13:32:24Tornethe right people for many things is a very small set of people
13:32:24JdGordonagain, no... if you actually want "the right people" to review it then it isnt ready for commit
13:32:26pamaurymany people are around but not necessarily the one who know your part of the code
13:32:33JdGordonthis is a second set of eyes giving it a oce over
13:32:45TorneI don't believe that is useful.
13:32:49God_Eatera second set of eyes who may not having a clue what it's doing!
13:32:55JdGordonpamaury: thats the point! you want a fewsh set of eyes to look for something obvious
13:33:00TorneI have done code reviews for a good eight years
13:33:10Torneusing a variety of systems, sets of rules, etc
13:33:22Torneand my experience has been that 100% of reviews done by random people are worthless
13:34:29TorneI have never, ever had a bug found in my code by someone who wasn't knowledgable about the code in question
13:34:29JdGordonok, that type of response is helpful
13:34:29Tornethe kind of mistake that can be spotted by just anyone iare the kind that can be spotted by basic building + testing
13:34:29*JdGordon is surprised more of the old timers didnt say that before
13:34:29Tornedo not commit code you haven't built and tested.
13:34:29DBUGEnqueued KICK Torne
13:34:29Tornethat solves that one :)
13:35:08JdGordonnext fight :) doesnt commitnig directly let people to merge commits instead of the single change commits? :)
13:35:11CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
13:35:11*God_Eater is surprised JdGordon couldn't work it out on his own.
13:35:36JdGordonGod_Eater: and you've been doing software development professionally for how long?
13:35:47God_Eater15 years thanks
13:35:54JdGordonyet you didnt say that
13:35:54pamauryNo my point is that for some parts of the code, only 1 or 2 people can review your code and if you don't feel confident, you should ask them for review instead of letting random people do it. But since you are expected to build and test before commit, that greatly reduces the probably of doing something wrong.
13:36:00God_EaterJdGordon: I don't have to
13:36:42TorneJdGordon: allowing merges vs forcing flattening/rebasing is orthogonal
13:36:58*JdGordon was kidding there :)
13:36:59TorneJdGordon: gerrit knows the difference between merge commits and regular commits and they are independantly controllable regardless of destination
13:37:30Tornethat part is something i do intend to discuss soon because I've changed my mind about what the best way of doing things is, having had more experience using git
13:37:42JdGordonpamaury: my tihnking is that someone who has no clue about the code might see something which someone who's been staring at it for weeks had already glossed over
13:37:45Tornebut can we not bring that up now :)
13:37:50JdGordonits not completly unimaginable
13:38:01Zagorbut exceedingly unlikely
13:38:03JdGordonbut that does require an actual code read
13:38:03TorneJdGordon: it's not unimaginable, but it's fairly rare if you have a build and test system :)
13:38:15Torneand it takes more than three minutes, for any change that isn't a oneliner.
13:38:32B4gder... unless you want to find spelling mistakes in comments
13:38:36JdGordonok, and had you convinced me that way 2 hours ago we'd all be much happier
13:39:00pamauryAs for what I do (port, low level drivers), you can miss something important at every line so it's extremely unlikely that you notice something. But it might true for other parts of the code
13:39:27Tornepamaury: sure, there are areas that are reasonable for a wide pool of potential reviewers
13:39:52God_EaterJdGordon: and if you hadn't crashed into the channel with an obscenity thrown at Llorean, we'd all be much happier too.
13:41:23JdGordonyou'd already said the discussion was completly disregardlable before that
13:41:28Torneanyway, yes, i would personally like us to move toward a world where reviews are the norm, rather than the exception. I don't think making them mandatory right now is a helpful step toward that. Changing culture takes time and people have to be willing, and for them to be willing it has to be demonstrated that it's worthwhile
13:41:52JdGordonso some time next millenium considering how slow change happeens here :)
13:42:02Tornemaybe :)
13:42:11TorneMore reasonably: do the migration as i describe first
13:42:15Tornethen wait maybe six months?
13:42:23Torneassuming a reasonable number of people *do8 actually use the review system in that time
13:42:28Tornethen discuss it.
13:42:35God_EaterI can't imagine them not using it
13:42:35JdGordonyou know full well the discussion will then be "why change? i like it the way it is"
13:42:44TorneThen we've lost nothing
13:42:49God_Eaterit's a nicer workflow than putting stuff in flyspray which people do already - even if they *are* committers
13:43:05TorneJdGordon: and I don't intend to be content with that
13:43:09B4gderJdGordon: if people prefer one way, why is it bad to use that way?
13:43:16Torneat that time, I will do what I can to help convicne people
13:43:34Tornebut I have no desire to force people to change at all, especially not right now
13:43:48JdGordonB4gder: you asking in general? or this specifically?
13:44:17B4gderyou just said it was bad, and I find that a bit amusing
13:44:35God_Eaterdoing it the way one person wants in spite of what everyone else wants is called a dictatorship. And our dictator is Zagor. :D
13:44:51JdGordonall hail our swedish overlords!
13:45:01Zagoror was, at least. it was many years since I last forced a decision.
13:45:34JdGordonB4gder: because I'm still fresh out of uni where we are drilled in with peer programming ideas and cocde review, and im forced to use it at work, so obviously my brain thinks it is correct!
13:45:38God_EaterZagor: I don't remember you resigning though ;)
13:45:51ZagorI'm a sleeper dictator :-)
13:45:59Zagorready to pounce
13:46:03JdGordonbut in general, just because "this is the way its always been" is a worthless arguemnt
13:46:15B4gderthat I fully agree with
13:46:17God_Eaterthat wasn't the argument being proporsed though
13:46:17TorneJdGordon: the thing is, the only reason we are even looking at gerrit is because i wanted it. but i've tried really hard not to force the issue or impose my will on anyone here, and to instead convince people by demonstrating its merits
13:46:32TorneJdGordon: your argument for mandatory code review is largely by assertion, which is not great.
13:46:52JdGordonI'd hardly call it an argument
13:46:59Tornethe assertions are meaningful to people who have been in environments where mandatory code review was in place and successful
13:47:15Tornebut that's not everyone, and that doesn't automatically mean we have the right environment right now.
13:48:01Torne(also, there is more than one level of "mandatory" that exists..)
13:48:06*JdGordon stops arguing with people who clearly know more than him on the topic
13:48:13Torne(e.g. i made a commit to a project yesterday and I reviewed it myself :)
13:48:25LloreanI'm just not sure I see how we can have *mandatory* code review, and at the same time have it be useful. Either people won't touch code they don't feel comfortable reviewing, or don't have time to review, or they'll skim it and put it in, removing the usefulness of it.
13:48:32God_Eatercriteria for review fulfilled presumably Torne ? :)
13:48:34JdGordonI'm way more pissed off with how the argument unfolded
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13:48:40TorneGod_Eater: yup :)
13:48:57LloreanThere's a happy medium in there, where every patch gets looked at seriously by people who read it carefully looking for typos and bugs, but I have this feeling that's not going to be the lions share of reviews in the long term.
13:49:02TorneGod_Eater: gerrit doesn't currently have a rule engine (it's coming soon) and nobody has bothered to implemnent a non-rule-engine based check that you haven't reviewed your own change
13:49:15TorneGod_Eater: enforcement is thus by peer pressure :p
13:49:52LloreanJdGordon: Most people stated reasonable fears about why mandatory reviews could be a bad thing. Then you called me names. Then we went back to reasonably discussing it on the mailing list instead of in here.
13:49:55TorneLlorean: It's possible
13:50:04TorneLlorean: I think we can get there over time
13:50:12LloreanTorne: And I think a term of voluntary review is a great way to test the waters.
13:50:24TorneWhile we're doing that we can also look at other helpful tricks
13:50:30Tornelike having buildbots test changes before commit
13:50:48God_Eaterinfrastructure is fun!
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13:50:59Torneif you pile enough demonstrably useful functionality on a system then people will use it :p
13:51:27*Llorean wishes there were a way to complete all builds *then* perform the final commit.
13:51:32TorneLlorean: There is
13:51:44TorneIt's something of a bottleneck though
13:51:54TorneChromium uses a compromise
13:52:10Torne(when you hit commit, it runs a build against the *current* HEAD with your change then if that succeeds, commits it)
13:52:23TorneThis is not quite perfect because more commits might get applied to HEAD after your build starts
13:52:25LloreanSince I feel like, typically, we've seen more "commit, gotta sleep, by" broken builds than "oops, that damn typo screwed up the logic but it still compiles without errors" broken builds.
13:52:42TorneLlorean: Right, but you don't actually need a commit queue to do that
13:52:53Torne*most* of the time it's sufficient to test the change against *anY8 version of trunk
13:53:06Tornesince normally it's either broken or it's not, and subsequent changes to trunk don't affect that state
13:53:17Torneso yeah, trybots
13:53:31Tornewhich, on completion, give your review a +1/-1 according to the build results
13:53:34JdGordonadding a 3-30min lag for commits is fine but a 5 min lag to get a review is a waste of time?
13:53:38Torneor maybe +1/-2
13:53:57TorneJdGordon: i am suggesting that again this be a voluntary thing you can do.
13:54:20JdGordonbeing able to ask the build bots to run our branches would be sweet thouh
13:54:26JdGordonpre commit is a bit annoying
13:54:35TorneJdGordon: as noted already, doing a good review takes more than 5 minutes in many cases
13:54:48Torneand doing a build run is for us pretty fast because we have no tests :0
13:54:53Tornefor chromium it takes a while.
13:55:01Tornebut I still do it, even though it's also voluntary
13:55:08LloreanAnd we do a build run every commit *anyway* (except when they're stacked on top of each other too closely)
13:55:17*JdGordon would have rnu last nights commit through the buildsystem pre commit if he could have
13:55:30TorneJdGordon: anyway, this is an independant thing, at this point
13:55:38JdGordoneasier to just commit and fix than to get all the toolchains built and working and then decide which to build
13:55:44TorneIf we are using gerrit the easiest way to integrate trybot runs would be through gerrit reviews.
13:55:48*JdGordon just wats git already :)
13:56:08Tornesince there is a known, fixed way to get the contents of a gerrit change, from a single server
13:56:17Tornewhich makes it somewhat easier than pulling a git branch from whoknowswhere
13:56:30Tornei'm going for lunch. ;)
13:59:02God_EaterZagor: will this also fix the naughty network card thing? (re: maintenance)
13:59:27B4gderout with the old, in with the new!
13:59:43God_Eaterno no - I don't want a new naughty network card
13:59:47God_EaterI just want plain rid of it :)
14:00:01B4gderbrand new problems coming up! =)
14:01:20[Saint] <−− A card from the 1981 movie of the same title?
14:02:13JdGordonsoooooo....... what's the correct procdure to load a bitmap file into a buflib handle?
14:12:17rinakuI have a Sansa Clip+ and I just installed Rockbox to be able to play AAC files (which I get that way: sometimes I happen to have a H264/AAC/MP4 video and I convert it vith VLC to AAC/MP4; I just keep the AAC track not to lose quality)
14:12:47rinakuas described in the FAQ, "Weird things happen", aka skipping, when I try to play those files
14:13:18rinakuI just wanted to know if there is something smarter to do than just convert all my .mp4 files to vorbis or mp3
14:15:47n1sTorne: what does gerrit do if two conflicting changes are pushed for review?
14:16:13JdGordonfirst one to merge wins?
14:16:16God_Eatern1s: I would imagine "sod all" until they're actually commited.
14:16:52n1sGod_Eater: but if one is approved and committed what happens to the other one?
14:17:08God_Eaternothing until you try and merge it I would think
14:17:10JdGordonit fails to merge
14:17:14God_Eaterat which point you'll see conflicts
14:17:30God_Eatern1s: why don't you try it and see?
14:17:37God_Eaterthat's what the sandbox is there for!
14:18:04n1sah, right, i'll try to do that
14:18:31God_EaterI didn't go begging for that server for it to just sit there and look pretty ;)
14:25:06 Part Zagor
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14:33:59Tornen1s: if it conflicts at submit time it won't submit it, and you will have to rebase/merge and reupload it
14:35:28Tornegerrit has a variety of submit methods but none of them will continue unless there are no conflicts
14:45:21Torneit doesn't alert you to this until you try and submit, though
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15:17:06JdGordonhas anyone tried putting volume on the quickscreen?
15:17:38Torneyes. it goes backwards from what you'd expect :)
15:18:02JdGordondoes it actually work though?
15:18:08JdGordoni.e the volume does indeed change?
15:18:42Tornelast time i tried, i thought so
15:18:47Tornesome time ago :)
15:19:59*JdGordon is looking into fs#12262 and is baffled
15:20:00fs-bluebot %T setting_inc and setting_set actions not updating volume properly (bugs, unconfirmed)
15:21:04JdGordon[Saint]: ping?
15:23:42JdGordonhave you tried using %T setting_inc/dec with volume?
15:23:50*[Saint] sees what he should be looking at.
15:24:09JdGordonI have a one line fix which may work
15:25:00[Saint]I haven't tried that, no.
15:25:10[Saint]Oh...actually, I may have.
15:25:13[Saint]Gimme a min tho.
15:26:37JdGordonI'm 99.999% sure this fix is correct anyway
15:26:57JdGordonit looks like the callbacks for most settings were not called from the quickscreen
15:27:20JdGordonso adding that in should just fix this
15:27:32JdGordonI say the quickscreen here because it is the same code which %T runs
15:27:40[Saint]Hmmm...actually, why *would* you use setting_set/inc/dec for volume? I can't imagine setting to a specific volume too useful (unless its a "fake" mute, and isn't there volume up/down touch tags?
15:28:31[Saint]"Reason for closing: You're insane, use the right tags!" ;)
15:29:20JdGordonI vaguely remember you wanting to put a + and - volume button in
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15:30:40[Saint]I did at one point.
15:30:50[Saint]but there's "volup" and "voldown"
15:30:53[Saint]I used those.
15:31:11JdGordonthe fix works anyway :)
15:31:14JdGordonand good point
15:31:37[Saint]So...I actually *don't* really think its a bug that this "doesn't work".
15:31:44[Saint]there's specific tags that do this.
15:31:55[Saint]and "setting_set" is practically useless for volume.
15:32:04JdGordonmissing the oint
15:32:06[Saint](because of "mute")
15:32:38[Saint]Ah...right, I thought this was specific to volume, apologies..
15:33:08CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30466): Fix FS #12262 - Volume (and all sound settings and anything using the "table" setting type) don't get applied correctly when being changed from the ...
15:33:41*JdGordon mumbles something about ignoring the twats and actually fixing bugs is what we should be about here
15:34:17[Saint]s/twats/users/ ;)
15:36:23 Quit ej0rge (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
15:36:29CIA-14r30466 build result: All green
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15:44:29JdGordonAlexP: if you're doing another 3.9.x release that would be a good candidate
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15:52:02amiconnB4gder: Where in svn can I find the build colouring script? And if it's not in svn atm, could you add it there?
15:52:29amiconnIt needs fixing...
15:54:57gevaertsamiconn: it's in the build server svn
15:55:08gevaertsi.e. svn:// is the one that counts errors, not the one that does the actual colouring
15:56:13amiconnIt also needs fixing, but less so than the colouring thing
15:56:30gevaertsoh, right
15:56:45amiconnThey could probably share some code, btw
15:57:07[Saint]"fixing" as in, its busted right now? Or, as in git transitional stuff?
15:57:44amiconnIt's broken for quite some time already
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15:58:18amiconnIt doesn't colour all errors, and otoh colours some lines red which aren't even warnings
15:59:10[Saint]chu: Hi. This isn't a social chat...if you have a question about ROckbox, go ahead and ask...we don't bite.
15:59:20[Saint]Rockbox, too.
16:00:54 Quit chu (Client Quit)
16:00:59mc2739amiconn: is this it?
16:01:01 Join chu [0] (
16:01:09pamauryarg, the gnu linker is doing crazy thing !
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16:06:38[Saint]chu: If you have a question about Rockbox, just ask it.
16:06:54chui have a gigabeatS
16:07:15chumy connection not stable
16:07:34chui installed a toshiba 160GB MK1634GAL
16:07:53chuafter a few day used
16:08:02chunow the gigabeat hang at the boot screen
16:08:17chuwith the following text
16:08:35chuGigabeats Rockbox bootloader
16:08:40chuversion 1.0
16:08:51chuBattery 2.4V
16:08:58chuInit complete
16:09:12chuLength: 9BBBC
16:09:18gevaerts2.4V is *awfully* low
16:09:29chuI run from the AC adapter
16:09:34[Saint]beat me to it, I was waiting to see if he'd finished ;)
16:09:37amiconnmc2739: Negative. That one is responsible for the build table
16:09:40chufor some reason it appear only 2.4000V
16:10:03chuchecksum: 3D10B22
16:10:12chuModel name:gigs
16:10:24chuLoading rockbox.gigabeat
16:10:31chuSum: 3D10B22
16:10:35chutheng hang up
16:10:47chusome time it can run to the main screen
16:11:01chubut it hang there for a few minutes
16:11:05chuand rester
16:11:27[Saint]at 2.4V its probably trying to spin the disk and giving up.
16:11:36[Saint]rinse, repeat.
16:11:53chuI used the adapter come with gigabeat
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16:12:57chueven when I used the battery
16:13:06mc2739oh, you are looking for the one that colors the log files?
16:13:07chuthe voltage aound 3.78V
16:13:11chuthe same happen
16:13:39[Saint]Oh, hmmm.
16:16:19chuafter i install the new hdd the access time of the new hdd is very low
16:17:00chucopy a file to the gigabeat at 2MB/s
16:17:41chuif I try to open a ape file then quickly change to a nother ape it hang up
16:17:43chuand reset
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16:24:53pamaurygod, ld is really doing crap, it doesn't follow the orders !
16:26:39n1susually the orders you give are not what you think they are in that situation IME
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16:26:58n1sor some obscure rule or default has kicked in for whatever reason
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16:36:34chudo you have any idea what happened to my gigabeat ?
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18:05:05pamauryweird, my bootloader is failing at loading the rockbox binary but works like a charm in usb mode :-/
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18:46:58preglowany android hackers here?
18:47:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:47:26[Saint]best just to ask your question straight.
18:48:53preglowjust wondering how up to date is, it seems it needs a quick fix substituting platform-tool for platform-tools, but i have no idea if that will break on some other sdks or whatever, so i won't just shotgun commit a fix
18:49:34*[Saint] reviews the recent commit.
18:50:37[Saint]preglow: How up-to-date is your checkout?
18:50:46preglowjust updated it
18:51:28[Saint]and where are you seeing "platform-tool"?
18:51:36 Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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18:52:03preglowjust grep for platform-tools in the script
18:52:10preglowchange that to platform-tool and it'll actually work
18:52:23[Saint]Oh, right...did you mean the reverse of your initial statement?
18:52:30preglowif not, whatever program installtoolchain calls to update the sdk errors out
18:52:37preglowpossibly :>
18:52:47preglowplatform-tool is correct
18:53:03[Saint]commit, I advised from memory. "platform-tool" is indeed correct.
18:53:19[Saint]my "s" was indeed in error.
18:53:41preglowi'll just allow the procedure to finish in case there's more
18:54:15preglowok :>
18:54:56[Saint]I failed _should_ be correct. I was looking at another folder I'd named (for too) similarly ;)
18:55:16[Saint]"platform=tools" *is* correct for the current SDK
18:55:22preglowin which case it just failed on android anyway, i had to change it top platform-tool
18:55:28preglowon os x
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18:58:38preglowif i run it as is, it fails with the following:
18:58:53preglowError: unknown package filter type 'platform-tools'.
18:59:10preglowAccepted values are: [add-on, doc, extra, platform, platform-tool, sample, tool]
19:02:40 Quit [Saint] (Disconnected by services)
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19:02:46S_a_i_n_twe should (in theory) only care about SDKr12
19:02:54 Nick S_a_i_n_t is now known as [Saint] (~st.lasciv@
19:02:56preglowwhich is what just got downloaded
19:03:51*[Saint] only has "platform-tools" in his SDK
19:04:07[Saint]the SDK readme also refers to "platform-tools"
19:04:30[Saint]perhaps the mac version is doing something crazy...
19:05:19preglowi'm running tools/android straight from the dir the installer put it into, so no chance of the wrong binary being run
19:06:33*[Saint] is looking at the windows SDK he downloaded ~4 days ago, and its definitely "platform-tools" there.
19:09:11preglowanyway, my decision not to commit was obviously the right one :P
19:10:46[Saint]checked my logs
19:10:58[Saint]looks like this script needs another case, to check for macs
19:11:13[Saint]Windows and Linux are using "platform-tools"
19:11:37[Saint](this occured for someone else less than a week ago)
19:13:08[Saint]if you look at r30431, we didn't check for platform-tools, or platform-tool. just platform, and tool
19:14:32*[Saint] isn't sure how sane sownloading all API versions is anyway ;)
19:14:40[Saint]aren't at least 2 of them depricated? ;)
19:14:54saratogais there any demonstration out there of what the new list code can do?
19:15:24[Saint]saratoga: G+ has a visual demo.
19:15:35[Saint]other than that, just the commit and the patch.
19:15:50*[Saint] hasn't had a chance to play with it yet.
19:16:34saratogais there a link to the demo?
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19:17:22*[Saint] can't seem to figure out how to link to a specific post...
19:17:35[Saint] is the best I can do, apparently.
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19:18:28[Saint]Other than that, afaik, the only documentation resides in the commit log, and the patch itself.
19:18:28preglow[Saint]: yeah, that did seem a bit overkill, heh
19:21:55bluebrotherissues with the Android SDK on OS X?
19:23:05[Saint]bluebrother: Apparently.
19:23:26[Saint]Can you confirm that OSX's SDK is using the dir "platform-tool"?
19:23:40bluebrotherI'm using it on OS X (my other machine) as a build client.
19:23:42bluebrotherI'll check
19:23:59bluebrotherbut I'm rather sure it does
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19:24:31[Saint]Not that I distrust preglow... not at all. I just want to know that didn't do something "very weird(TM)"
19:25:37bluebrotherhmm, not sure if I used that to install the toolchain or did it manually. It's been a while since I installed that.
19:25:49[Saint]If that is definitely the case, InstallToolchain needs to check what platform its on.
19:26:07[Saint]As Windows and Linux appear to both be using "platform-tools"
19:26:18bluebrotherit does have platform-tools
19:26:55bluebrothermy linux installation has more files in it, but that is likely to be caused by that installation being newer
19:27:10bluebrotherthe Mac is r10 while my Linux machine is r12
19:27:23preglowcheck r12
19:27:31preglowit's what the tool downloads
19:27:53preglowbetter yet, just run the tool
19:28:14[Saint](not a great idea if you installed manually...)
19:28:47bluebrothergimme a bit, haven't used the Mac for Android development for some time
19:28:49preglowdepends where he put the dirs
19:29:02preglowthe tool tries to stuff things in ~, but that's easily changed
19:29:24bluebrotherI've put that in a folder ~/nobackup since I want to exclude it from TimeMachine ;-)
19:29:39bluebrotherreminds me that I need to reconfigure TimeMachine since I've reinstalled ...
19:33:24[Saint]argh! I am *really* failing with my grep skills tonight.
19:34:00[Saint]"platform-tools" is the dir destination, but "platform-tool" is the required filter.
19:34:46preglownow why'd they do something like that
19:34:50bluebrotherok, script runs.
19:35:05[Saint]SDK's readme certainly didn't help me there, sontinually referring to "platform-tools"
19:35:34bluebrotherhmm, could create the install folder if it doesn't exist
19:35:59[Saint]so, it would seem preglow, you're correct. And I was right to agree with you initially ;)
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19:37:17bluebrotherok, breaks with unknown package filter error
19:37:24[Saint]but, if the script runs for bluebrother...there's some weird foo going on.
19:37:27[Saint]Ah, good.
19:37:44bluebrotherthat platform-tools has been added just recently to the script IIRC
19:38:01[Saint]Yeah, silly me advising from memory.
19:38:03bluebrotherlet's try it on linux ...
19:38:18[Saint]bluebrother: No point.
19:38:55bluebrotherso it's just a wrong filter in the script and not related to OS X?
19:39:19[Saint]I need better grep skills, and a better memory, apparently.
19:39:46bluebrotherbut calling the folder platform-tools and the filter platform-tool is a bit ... weird.
19:40:33[Saint]amen. that's what confused the hell out of me a second time. The first time was me calling a totally unrelated folder platform-tool by sheer chance ;)
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19:41:40*bluebrother finds some old patch
19:42:48bluebrotherwhat do people think about changing the sim to use png for the background image instead of bmp? Makes the file much smaller, but adds a dependency on SDL_image
19:44:10[Saint]what do you mean by "background image"? the skin engine, or the "player" image?
19:44:19preglowwhich will make things harder the windows crew
19:44:21bluebrotherthe "player" image
19:44:57[Saint]preglow: It will?
19:45:22preglowunless binaries are floating around: probably
19:45:28preglowit depends on libpng and the like
19:45:32preglowenter autotools hell
19:45:35bluebrotherhmm, I wanted to try compiling the sim using mingw-cross-env.
19:45:51 Quit stoffel (Read error: Operation timed out)
19:46:39bluebrotherhmpf. configure assumes mingw is i586-mingw32msvc
19:47:18[Saint]bluebrother: As long as you're not breaking theme testing with the sim, I care not about it, and am not qualified to comment ;)
19:47:53[Saint]...though, theme testing withthe sim is kinda useless as of ~1+ years now.
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19:48:16[Saint]its a simple pass/fail now. No more nice debug output.
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19:50:54 Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
19:51:39bluebroth3rmingw-cross-env has SDL and SDL_image
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19:52:26*bluebroth3r tries
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19:56:22BuschelI would like to commit FS #12261, but I would like to have a review of somebody who has more experience with makefile conditions
19:56:23fs-bluebot -fgnu89-inline breaks Cygwin build (bugs, new)
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19:59:41bluebroth3rhmm, looks good so far. Had to add a bunch of linker flags though.
20:00:00*bluebroth3r fires up Windos VM
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20:02:10bluebroth3rworks fine for me :)
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20:04:33bluebroth3rwe should make the sim build with mingw-cross-env directly. That makes it quite easy to install a cross compiler for Windows
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20:10:42bluebroth3rhmm, though the binaries (mingw-cross-env links statically) get a lot bigger
20:11:06bluebroth3rshouldn't matter much if we use that for integrating the mingw sim into the build system, should it?
20:12:56Zagorno, we don't upload the sims anyway
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20:22:32bluebroth3rhow does Debian install the mingw sdl-config? configure doesn't prepend a crosscompile prefix but mingw-cross-env uses one
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20:30:12bluebroth3rhmm, has Debian a package for that? I can't find one on
20:36:59CIA-14New commit by buschel (r30467): Fix FS #12261. Only set '-fgnu89-inline' if GCC >= 4.1.3 is used.
20:37:55*Buschel crosses fingers
20:40:10CIA-14r30467 build result: All green
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20:44:25PoodlemastahHas anyone tried line out with an ipod classic?
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21:17:16Buschelanything speaking against FS #12258?
21:17:17fs-bluebot Do not use -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections for mingw builds (patches, new)
21:17:44gevaertsBuschel: I'm sure the build system will speak up if it has objections :(
21:18:24*Buschel was somehow expexting a similar answer by gevaerts ;)
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21:21:59CIA-14New commit by buschel (r30468): Submit FS #12258. Do not use '-ffunction-sections' and '-fdata-sections' when compiling. Fixes compiler warnings for mingw and cygwin simulatior ...
21:24:25CIA-14r30468 build result: All green
21:24:29*Buschel just recognizes the commit message is misleading...
21:24:50Buschelof course the cmopiler settings are only disabled for sdl-sim builds
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21:54:37mc2739Zagor: the build table is not updating again - it seems to be stuck at r30465
21:58:42bluebroth3rany debian user around that can look up how mingw's sdl-config is installed?
21:59:50*ukleinek uses Debian, what should I do?
22:00:14bluebroth3rhow does Debian install sdl-config for MinGW? As i586-mingw32msvc-sdl-config?
22:00:21bluebroth3r(or something like that)
22:00:44Zagoras far as I can see, Debian doesn't install mingw sdl
22:01:00ukleinekZagor: yeah, I think so, too
22:01:13bluebroth3rI'm looking at configure and it calls sdl-config without any cross compiler prefix. When building the w32 sim using mingw-cross-env it installs sdl-config as i686-pc-mingw32-sdl-config
22:01:18gevaertsLast time I used mingw on debian (a few years ago...) I compiled sdl myself
22:01:32bluebroth3rhmm, how does sdl-config work on Debian then? configure does call it
22:01:47Zagorsdl is available, but not mingw-sdl
22:02:52bluebroth3rso will cross compiling break if I add a cross prefix to sdl-config?
22:04:00Zagorhow do you mean?
22:04:05*bluebroth3r isn't sure if he gets findsdl() correctly
22:04:47bluebroth3rconfigure has findsdl() which looks after sdl-config. If I now make it search for ${CROSS}sdl-config it won't be able to find it in that case.
22:06:02bluebroth3rthat's what I'm doing:
22:06:51bluebroth3rhmm, I've missed the non-crosscompiling case :o
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22:54:07kugelbluebroth3r: my sdl-config isn't prefixed
22:56:28bluebroth3rkugel: you're referring to the cross compile one?
22:57:00bluebroth3rand there's no prefixed symlink?
22:57:10kugelit's in $HOME/.mingw32-sdl/bin/, and I need to change PATH before running configure
22:57:21kugelno, but I could do that :)
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22:58:16bluebroth3rmingw-cross-env installes a prefixed version into usr/bin, and a non-prefixed one into usr/i686-pc-mingw32/bin
22:58:23kugelI compiled it myself
22:58:25bluebroth3r(below its folder)
22:58:45bluebroth3rI guess I should check the mingw-cross-env Makefiles about that a bit then
22:59:17bluebroth3ra project that is a build environment for cross compiling for windows
22:59:28kugelnever heard of that
22:59:30bluebroth3ri.e. it builds all stuff you need for cross compiling
22:59:43bluebroth3rI'm using that for creating svn binaries of Rockbox Utility :)
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23:16:41rinakuMay I ask a (my) question again for people who weren't there 9h ago? I wanted to know, given that Rockbox (on my Sansa Clip+) won't read some AAC/MP4 files of mine, if there is something clever to do about it of if I have to convert all my files to Vorbis.
23:17:39CIA-14r30468 build result: 8 errors, 0 warnings (buschel committed)
23:17:39Zagorrinaku: are they drm-limited?
23:17:47rinakuZagor: no
23:17:57rinakuZagor: VLC reads them perfectly for example
23:18:34rinaku(*exept* if I give them an .aac extension, wich I find strange but I'm not sure this is related)
23:19:22bluebroth3rhmm, Fedora's mingw packages also don't provide a prefixed sdl-config. I guess we just need to try both :)
23:19:47wodzrinaku: any special tags like album art embedded or something?
23:20:23n1srinaku: what do you mean by "won't read"?
23:20:49rinakuwodz: only "title" and "editor" (vlc)
23:20:56rinakun1s: skips
23:20:57n1salso .aac files are usually raw aac streams and not the same as m4a/mp4
23:21:34n1srinaku: skips in the audio or does it skip the files entirely?
23:21:53 Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.55=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
23:22:14rinakun1s: it skips the files entirely
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23:23:29LloreanHow were those AAC files created, and how long are they?
23:23:51 Quit Horscht (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
23:25:33rinakuLlorean: I get H264/AAC/MP4 files (from YouTube for example) and I convert them with VLC to AAC/MP4, i.e. with no video and keeping the original audio track
23:26:08rinakuthe one I have in front of me is 03:28 long
23:26:42 Quit balintx (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:27:23LloreanOne problem we've seen is that, unless this has changed, MP4/AAC files that Rockbox can play need to be optimized for streaming. I'm not sure what tools are typically used to do this, but your conversion process may not take this into account.
23:28:19rinakuLlorean: optimized at wich level? codec or container?
23:29:03rinakuLlorean: if codec: wouldn't youtube videos be optimized for streaming?
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23:31:43rinakuOh. Never heard of that. I'll try to do that
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23:37:33n1sLlorean: rinaku: pretty sure people have used fb2k for that, never done it myself though
23:39:38 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
23:40:55rinakun1s: I would prefer a native Linux solution...
23:47:47 Part Zagor
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