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#rockbox log for 2011-09-17

00:11:31 Part Zagor
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00:19:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:27:17CIA-14New commit by pamaury (r30562): sbtools: implement more complicated integer expression in db files, implement data sections, section attributes, file options, rework command line ...
00:29:17CIA-14r30562 build result: All green
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08:40:30 Join evilnick [0] (~evilnick@rockbox/staff/evilnick)
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08:51:27evilnick[Saint_AndChat]: What I meant was that there's no easy/obvious (at least to me!) way of going from the wps to the Playlist Viewer *and then* to reshuffle that playlist
08:52:42evilnickIt seems (to me) that it's a reasonable assumption that the Reshuffle/Save options should be reachable easily from the Playlist Viewer
08:52:48[Saint_AndChat]I'm not too familiar with the playlistviewer.
08:52:59[Saint_AndChat]Bit it should be possible.
08:53:35[Saint_AndChat]It probably should be added to the playlist viewers context menu if its not there already.
08:53:52evilnickMy usage pattern is usually: Shuffle everything, then go to the Playlistviewer and then "tweak" which songs are coming up next, so having to go back to the wps and then use the context menu seems a step too many(?)
08:53:57[Saint_AndChat]And I trust it isn't or there'd be no issue.
08:54:42evilnickWell, on my phone at least there are two hardware buttons (well, volume and power too, but they have functions already): Menu and Back
08:55:07evilnickMenu takes me to the Main Menu, and Back takes me back to the WPS
08:55:14evilnick(from playlistviewer
08:55:22[Saint_AndChat]It wouldn't be hard to add this to the playlist viewers context menu.
08:55:31[Saint_AndChat]It seems a sane addition.
08:55:42[Saint_AndChat]Then you'd need no hw keys.
08:56:12*evilnick nods
08:56:52[Saint_AndChat]I'll poke Jd about it (its his baby (playlist viewer)) when he pops in, unless you get to him first.
08:58:15rbbrittainToo bad Buschel's not on here right now; his patch in FS #12268 unbroke my own Sansa e200's large-font FM skin. Anyone want to look at it and perhaps commit it?
08:58:15fs-bluebot multiple WPS fonts not loading since r30478 (bugs, new)
09:01:10[Saint_AndChat]rbbrittain: buschel is capable of commuting it himself. If he thought it was ready, or that it didn't require more testing/review/or a better'd be in svn already.
09:01:32[Saint_AndChat]Bah! * committing
09:02:42[Saint_AndChat]Oh...right. if I'm thinking of same patch. Its not "his" to commit.
09:03:40[Saint_AndChat]Its still being developed iiuc.
09:04:54[Saint_AndChat]Ah....I'm confusing things. Right. That patch would fix things in the short term.
09:05:00rbbrittainYou may be confusing it with FS #12273, which Buschel said also fixed that issue but definitely needs more development.
09:05:00fs-bluebot use buflib for fonts (patches, new)
09:05:31[Saint_AndChat]There's another effort currently to get fonts using bufflib which is the %right" fix.
09:06:10[Saint_AndChat]rbbrittain: I was confusing the two, yes. Aplolgies.
09:06:40[Saint_AndChat]The latter is the "right" way to approach this.
09:10:25rbbrittainI agree, but IMO the first patch should be committed right away as a short-term fix for broken large-font skins.
09:10:38[Saint_AndChat]You could try (for now), either using the patch you're using...or altering your skins to only load <X> needed chars at a time.
09:12:18rbbrittainCharacters wasn't the issue in my case; it was font size. My FM screen uses a 35-point font for the frequency display, which breaks the skin.
09:12:44rbbrittainThe only way around that in my own testing was to reduce the font to 15 points or less.
09:13:11[Saint_AndChat]Limiting the chars should have the exact same effect.
09:15:24evilnicksoap: I don't understand your reply on:,28832.0.html
09:16:24[Saint_AndChat]Fonts using bufflib *is* the correct fix here, and a very sane thing to do which doesn't needlessly rob buffer from those that don't care about multiple fonts.
09:17:55[Saint_AndChat]Jd doesn't have a habit of letting code he writes'll be committed when its ready.
09:18:25rbbrittainPerhaps, but my issue is *not* number of characters. In my case, the text is merely "xx.x FM"; it's just in a 35-point font.
09:18:45[Saint_AndChat]Until then, it seems you're capable of compiling yourself(?).
09:19:22rbbrittainReducing the font to 15 points or less fixed it, but it made the numbers extremely small. (And yes, though I'm a relative noob, I did compile it myself.)
09:20:01[Saint_AndChat]Right, then. Problem solved. :)
09:20:19[Saint_AndChat]Use the patch until fonts use bufflib properly.
09:20:56[Saint_AndChat]...which, should be sooner than later.
09:22:23[Saint_AndChat]rbbrittain: I'm curious though about one thing. Is this a theme you're just now developing? Or did it break recently?
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09:22:57[Saint_AndChat]If the former, I'd just say to pay more attention to available skin buffer, that's why I ask.
09:23:54rbbrittainIt was actually developed originally by someone else; I modified it only to respect 12-hour vs. 24-hour clock settings.
09:24:48Tornerbbrittain: i think you are misunderstanding what saint means.. there is a parameter to the font tag to specify *how much memory* to use for that font, in terms of how many characters to have room to load at once
09:25:07[Saint_AndChat]When fonts (or themes in general) can use bufflib fully you'll be able to steal as much of your playback buffer as you want for skins and it only affects you. You dig?
09:25:14TorneFor "xx.x FM" you only need to load 14 characters
09:25:28*[Saint_AndChat] nods
09:25:37Tornethe digits 0-9, F, M, period, space (not sure if space is actually a glyph)
09:25:40[Saint_AndChat]I assumed we were on the same page.
09:25:44[Saint_AndChat]Guess not.
09:26:04TorneIt's not about how many characters you display on the screen at one time, it's about how many you will *ever* display
09:26:18Tornethe skin engine has no way of knowing you are only going to need 14 characters from the font
09:26:25Torneso it allocates lots of memory for it because it's a big font.
09:26:33Torneif you tell it, instead, then it can allocate less :)
09:26:35rbbrittainAs I said, the issue in my case was never characters; it was font size. That may be why big fonts need a lot of memory.
09:27:12 Join ender` [0] (
09:27:12Torneyou are wrong
09:27:29[Saint_AndChat] way of putting it.
09:28:01Tornewhen you load a font it allocates enough memory to load the whole font, unless some limit in bytes that i forget is exceeded
09:28:16Tornea 35-point font is pretty large, in bytes
09:28:31Tornebut it also has several dozen different characters in it (letters, symbols, etc)
09:28:52[Saint_AndChat]That you'll likely never use.
09:28:53Torneif you tell the ssystem that you *only need to load 14 different characters ever* then it will only allocate 14 times the size of one 35-point character
09:29:09Torneinstead of, say, 80 times the size of one character
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09:29:15Torneassuming the font has 80 glyphs in it
09:29:19Torneit probably has more
09:29:40brari used rock box on my media player 2 years back
09:30:00rbbrittainThen how do you tell it you only need 14 characters at 35 points?
09:30:01brarthat was great ..
09:30:12Tornerbbrittain: you read the skin syntax documentation :)
09:30:12[Saint_AndChat]The manual, or customwps should describe how to do font char limiting. Consult it.
09:30:21Torneit's an extra argument to the font loading tag
09:30:25Tornei don't recall what it is
09:30:36*[Saint_AndChat] nods
09:31:12[Saint_AndChat]Iirc, I think its just ",value" appended to the font declaration.
09:31:13rbbrittainOK, I'll have to look at it. As I said before, someone else wrote the code; if the size can be limited, that's a good thing−−buflib or no buflib, patch or no patch.
09:31:26Tornewell, not really
09:31:42Tornebecause there is no way to specify *which* glyphs are needed it can be slower
09:31:52Torneuntil it's actually loaded each used glyph once
09:31:53[Saint_AndChat]No if, it *can* be limited. And bufflib is good, limit or no limit ;)
09:32:10Torneif you have enough ram it's preferable to just load the whole damn font
09:32:36Tornebecause loading a whole font is really simple and efficient, and loading individual glyphs and LRU-caching them is a pain
09:33:36Tornethe "ideal" is to make a new versoin o the font that only has the glyphs you are going to use to start with :p
09:33:52Tornebut then you have to distribute an extra font with the skin, so eh
09:34:08 Part brar
09:34:36[Saint_AndChat]Probably easier to use bitmaps for this.
09:34:56[Saint_AndChat]Its 0~9 and F M
09:35:11Tornei don't know that there's a sensible way to display the number using bitmaps
09:35:19Torneif it's alwas FM then yes, make that bit a bitmap )
09:35:23Tornethen you only need 11 characters :p
09:36:11[Saint_AndChat]Ah...hmmm, the decimal might make it interesting, yeah.
09:37:03[Saint_AndChat]Were it like volume etc. easy as pie
09:37:08rbbrittainFrom comparing the wiki to the actual code, it seems the original writer allocated 50 glyphs for the huge font. (The default is 256.)
09:37:49rbbrittainYou'd need 0-9, a decimal point, a space, and the letters F & M. That's 14.
09:38:54rbbrittainWould simply reducing it to 14 glyphs be good, or does that create more problems?
09:38:54[Saint_AndChat]Limiting the other fonts used will reduce total skin ram used, also.
09:39:38[Saint_AndChat]Depending on what fonts are used, there's a lot of potential for most of it to never be displayed.
09:40:48[Saint_AndChat]And no...limiting the displayed chars will have no ill effect unless you try to display more chars than you allow.
09:41:04[Saint_AndChat]In this instance, its a known value, so it's fine.
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09:42:51rbbrittainI'm looking at other parts of his WPS code too. All his fonts are either 50 or 150 glyphs, but unless you're displaying a station name you shouldn't need that many.
09:44:52rbbrittainThe skin actually uses more graphics than anything else; there's not that many actual characters, especially since the numbers on his dial appear to be part of the graphic.
09:48:27[Saint_AndChat]Right...well, there'll never be commits to svn to fix bad theme syntax ;)
09:49:27[Saint_AndChat]Seems like you'd be better off re-writing it.
09:49:54rbbrittainThat's the direction I'm looking at right now. Thanks for your help.
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09:51:02[Saint_AndChat]Speaking of bad themes...
09:51:32*[Saint_AndChat] fires up a machine and pokes at RaaA cabbie.
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10:11:50*[Saint] pokes evilnick
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10:14:59[Saint]Would it be of any use to have the repeat button reset to "off" on a long press? Cycling through the repeat modes seems a bit of a PITA.
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10:17:28[Saint]I think I'll have the repeat mode button bring up a pop-up like the volume and context/quickscreen/filebrowser pop-up.
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11:11:13JdGordonreading the logs, we now actually can use bitmpa stripts to draw text (for numberS) using the %ss tag :)
11:11:47JdGordonI cant remember if gevaerts commited his char-to-number tag or not
11:13:04JdGordon[Saint]: what was the talk about theplaylist viewer problems?
11:15:36[Saint]JdGordon: evilnick noted that there was no easy way to do "shuffle all" prom the playlistviewer context menu.
11:16:44[Saint]And it struck me that that'd be a pretty cool thing to be able to do from the playlistviewer.
11:17:27[Saint]*s/shuffle all/reshuffle playlist/
11:18:55JdGordonshould be simple
11:20:05JdGordonerr, you sure you cant?
11:20:50[Saint]If there's a way to, I can't find it...and nor can EvanCarroll, apparently.
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11:21:43[Saint]binging up the contextmenu in the playlistviewer gives "current playlist, playlist catalogue, remove, move, save current playlist"
11:21:52JdGordonah, yep, ok, I'll add it
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11:29:21CIA-14New commit by jdgordon (r30563): Add an option to shuffle the playlist in the playlist viewer
11:29:44[Saint]and evilnick rejoices.
11:31:18CIA-14r30563 build result: All green
11:31:47JdGordonthere appears to be a bug in the save playlist option though
11:32:03JdGordonprobably should fix it :)
11:32:41[Saint]Oh? What's wrong with it?
11:32:54JdGordonit crashes :)
11:33:00*[Saint] never saves playlists.
11:33:02JdGordonunrelated to that commit
11:40:50JdGordonapparently using "save dynamic playlist" from the viewer context menu without music playing causes a crash
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12:04:09rbbrittainA follow-up to my earlier IRC chat: I was able to reduce the font glyph sizes (and disable a few excess fonts) so that my theme now runs in r30563 without the patch.
12:05:08rbbrittainI uploaded the revisions to the theme site. Thanks for your help!
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12:06:14*evilnick thanks [Saint] and JdGordon
12:06:34[Saint]heh...I didn't do squat ;)
12:11:05*evilnick doesn't kill the messenger, he _thanks_ the messenger!
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12:12:05*JdGordon doesnt mind the occasional thank you :)
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12:16:46[Saint]We could probably make a bot that popped in and thanked you at variable intervals :)
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13:11:01gevaertsJdGordon: I didn't. Unless someone sits down and thinks about how it can work properly, I don't think it's worth it
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13:17:57gevaertsThe problem with such char-to-number tag is that it has to output a limited range if it's to be at all useful with bitmap strips, but it has to support full unicode if it's to be useful with actual text
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13:27:49gevaertsIf we want to support something like this, I suspect it'll have to use a font-like LRU system, so I think the best way would be to see what's missing to actually use the font system
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15:29:35soapevilnick, is he or is he not expressing confusion over why one of his iPod docks works and the other does not?
15:30:48soapOnce you strip away the audiofoolerly that's what he's saying.
15:31:20soap"I then proceeded to test it on two Zeppelins, the new air edition and the normal edition, much to my lack of knowledge I couldn't get it to work with the Air but did get it to work with the normal Zeppelin, I connected it and it would go into USB mode briefly and then come back to the player,"
15:31:46soapBut everyone decided to bash him on his audiofool nature instead of trying to help him with his one expressed problem
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15:32:52soapThey are Rockbox forums, not HydrogenAudio forums and people are allowed to make statements which are not substantiated with blind listening tests.
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16:46:25[Saint_AndChat]Bah! rasher 's builds are *one* revision behind something I wanted to test dammit! :D
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16:57:36fs-bluebot multiple WPS fonts not loading since r30478 (bugs, new)
16:57:51piggzhi...i have 2 sony ipod docks, and an ipod video 5.5g running a recent rockbox. On the older dock everythin works fine, but the newer causes rockbox to go into usb mode, and doesnt work....any ideas?
16:57:58JdGordon[Saint_AndChat]: you putz! :)
16:58:23[Saint_AndChat]The word is "lazy putz" ;)
16:59:38soappiggz, rockbox's support for Apple's Accessory Protocol is incomplete. Have you tried preventing Rockbox from entering USB mode when inserting the iPod into the second dock?
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17:00:34soapDepending on how much effort you are willing to to through to fix this I can point you in a variety of directions.
17:00:56[Saint_AndChat]Are both iPod branded? Are either?
17:01:50[Saint_AndChat]One may just be treating it as removable storage, which will "just work".
17:02:05soapwith an Apple dock port?
17:02:58soapI'm not saying such do not exist, but I have not seen a single iPod accessory dock with a dock connector which assumes UMS.
17:03:19soapplenty of accessories with a generic USB port, on the other hand...
17:04:26piggz[Saint_AndChat]: both docks are sony...the newer one which doesnt work is a dab/internet radio type
17:05:07[Saint_AndChat]I have a non-Apple dock that fails to read from the ipods OF, but happily treats it ad a removable device and plays files added in disk mode. I guess I assumed it may be more common than I thought. It was cheap ad chips so I wasn't surprised.
17:05:18piggzto be fair to rockbox, i think it also doesnt work with my daughters standard ipod video 5g running original firmware
17:09:14piggzhmm, the manuyal claims it should be compatible
17:09:30piggzsoap: how to prevent it entering usb mode?
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17:10:08soapPress and hold "Menu" (any key now?) while inserting ipod into connector.
17:10:40Lalufusoap: those things exist, I have seen at least one.
17:10:57[Saint_AndChat]Any key now, yeah. Quite correct.
17:11:15piggzsoap: ok..
17:11:17soapLalufu, yuck, Just what the world needs.
17:11:28[Saint_AndChat]Except hold, of course. Which will boot the OF.
17:13:29soapSo, piggz, there are at least three ways we can play this. 1 is you pretend this never happened and never come here again. ;) 2 is you report your knowledge to me and I'll add your findings to the wiki to share the knowledge on accessories. 3 is you work with one of the developers to help discover /why/ your iPod doesn't know the language the problematic dock is speaking and perhaps, through a fair amount of back-and-forth, get the communication wor
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17:13:36[Saint_AndChat]soap: Yep, I thought it was odd. But I only paid...well, next to nothing for it. It took an age for me to notice that no, its not broken, I have to put the iPod in disk mode *then* it'll read from the disk.
17:14:11[Saint_AndChat]...but not the iPod DB, obviously.
17:15:00soapand it will find music in the IpodControl folder, [Saint_AndChat]? And allow one to navigate it in a reasonable manner? Oh, so it only treats your iPod as a UMS device AND has an iPod connector? So it won't actually work with any normal iPod?
17:16:36[Saint_AndChat]No, it knows nothing of the OF. I can browse iPod_control, but with the meaningless truncated Apple naming scheme its useless.
17:19:00LalufuThat's... interesting, as a concept.
17:19:58piggzsoap: im happy to help out to make it work...i just tried holding a button while plugging it in, and it didnt go to usb mode, but the dock flashed 'unsupported device connected' and i get no audio
17:20:28[Saint_AndChat]"cheap and broken" is better wording, I think.
17:20:36piggzi also tried the daughters 5g, which is supposed to work, but that flashes up 'attempting to connect to device' and eventually gives up
17:20:42soapbroken by design, [Saint_AndChat]
17:20:59[Saint_AndChat]I should dig it out of hiding and poke at it.
17:21:33piggzmodel is sony nas-sv20di
17:21:52soappiggz, interesting about the stock 5G not working either. A little more research sounds in order to see if that device is expected to work with said accessory. If it is expected to work than there isn't a whole lot of point to moving forward as the device may be broken.
17:22:27piggzsoap: works fine with wifes ipod nano 4g
17:22:47piggz(or worked until yesterday, when said ipod nano went missing! :/)
17:22:59Lalufupiggz: I'm currently working on improving IAP (the protocol spoken between iPods and accessories) support in rockbox.
17:23:05LalufuI might be able to help you out.
17:23:40Lalufua) the work is ongoing, far from complete, and not supported by the rockbox devs or anyone in this channel except for me
17:24:26Lalufueven with this work, the accessory may remain unsupported
17:24:34soapsee also and the one Lalufu's been working on
17:25:21soapalso verify you have the accessory protocol turned on (should be on by default) and the accessory power supply turned on from within rockbox (should be on by default).
17:25:48soapanything I'm missing Lalufu?
17:25:59soapI've been mostly out of the loop these last few months.
17:26:48piggzsoap: where is the accessory protocol option?
17:26:49Lalufub) you will be asked to try out custom firmware build, which are again unsupported by rockbox, and might damage files on your iPod, or the iPod itself (although the latter is unlikely)
17:27:12Lalufuc) even if my work is someday completed it might never be accepted into a rockbox official release
17:27:53soappiggz, accessory power supply is under general settings.
17:27:55bertrikI've worked a bit on IAP too, but I don't have the proper hardware to test things
17:28:15linuxstbLalufu: Why might it not be accepted?
17:28:34bertrikI got stuck with the IAP large packet support because there are still unexplained hangs with large packets
17:29:17[Saint_AndChat]linuxstb: perhaps he REALLY likes tabs instead of spaces? ;)
17:29:43bertrikI have a nano 1g (which supports IAP) and a knock-off button remote, but the button remote doesn't seem to follow IAP specification
17:30:06Lalufubut it works with the OF?
17:30:34soapand, piggz, file damage from the sorts of poking around Lalufu would be asking of you is extremely unlikely and totally fixable.
17:30:42bertrikactually I haven't tested IAP much with the OF
17:32:31piggzLalufu: im all for custom unsuported versions ;)
17:33:07bertrikLalufu, what do you think about the state machine approach in IAP? IMO it's a lot cleaner than the hacks we have now. I think we can commit at least that part and investigate the hangs that AndyP sees later.
17:33:11piggzsoap: i see the accessory power supply option, but no protcol option
17:33:35soappiggz, yes, I might be mistaken about that, let me grab an ipod.
17:33:47Lalufubertrik: I like it. A lot.
17:34:15LalufuI have no idea where the hangs come from, but I'm not convinced it's the IAP parsing code.
17:34:57Lalufuthere were some cases in which the iPod would not accept new commands, but I do not see how the code could cause a complete hang of the player.
17:37:01[Saint_AndChat]Iirc, there's no setting for IAP.
17:37:21[Saint_AndChat]Just accessory power supply.
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17:38:28soapLalufu, was thinking system:serial bitrate.
17:38:54soapand, obviously, line-out (again should be on by default and demonstrably on due to other accessory working).
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17:40:01Lalufusoap: the (current, released) IAP code has automatic bitrate matching
17:40:48[Saint_AndChat]So...that setting is needless?
17:40:54soapg2g, bbl, but I'm really the least helpful one here so don't sweat it. ;)
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17:41:47[Saint_AndChat]Serial bitrate, I mean.
17:42:00Lalufuautomatic matching might not work. And if you have set the speed, and there is a mismatch, things don't work.
17:42:09bertrik[Saint_AndChat], I think being able to set the serial bitrate just makes *really* sure that the bitrate is set at the desired rate
17:42:23[Saint_AndChat]Ah, right.
17:42:39[Saint_AndChat]Just wondering if it was a "leftover".
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17:45:58Lalufupiggz: OK, which of your ipods are you willing to risk in the name of science?
17:46:59[Saint_AndChat]...not that there's much actual risk ;)
17:47:59[Saint_AndChat]Making IAP code kill HW would be impressive.
17:50:36soapstop saying "risk" please. The risk is non-zero but lower than mounting to an unknown Windows box.
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18:00:09piggzLalufu: my 5.5g
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18:10:54Lalufupiggz: this might take a little bit. You'll be around here?
18:11:56piggzLalufu: yes, im irc a lot, #kexi, #meego, #maemo and #harmattan
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18:48:03Lalufupiggz: you're using the ipodcolor-firmware right now?
18:48:48piggzLalufu: ipod-video
18:49:28Lalufuah, ok
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19:20:28CIA-14New commit by bertrik (r30564): plugins: make local functions static for a subset of plugins
19:22:29CIA-14r30564 build result: 0 errors, 8 warnings (bertrik committed)
19:23:12bertrikoh, revenge of the [-Wunused-but-set-variable]
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20:45:58tony_is anybody here
20:46:07bertriktony_, just ask if you have a question, you might not get an immediate response though.
20:47:08tony_i have a ipod nano 2g with rockbox on it but i am trying to get iloader on it
20:47:17tony_and it wont work
20:48:43tony_do u know how to get iloader or a bootloader on a ipod nano 2g ?
20:49:32TorneiLoader is dead
20:49:36bertrikno, I don't know much about the ipod nano 2g
20:49:46freddybkugel: how would you feel about trimming the playback buffer to something a bit less than 100% so a small allocation does not require a buflib_compact/shrink?
20:50:53tony_:O its really dead that sucks and is there a program to make theams for rockbox or u have to make them by yourself
20:51:24Tornewhy do you want to install it?
20:52:01kugelfreddyb: then we waste memory again
20:52:12tony_beacuse it whpuld be beter and it whouldnt take as long to load rockbox
20:52:25tony_or the normal os
20:53:01tony_lol i ment i think it whould make it easyer to boot rockbox and to boot the ipod os
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20:53:11Torneeasier than what?
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20:54:27tony_when i boot my ipod in its origrnal os it takes 2 minuets and i have to stick it on hold so it dosent boot rockbox
20:55:03Torneisn't that just how long booting the OF takes?
20:55:10Torneit used to take even longer than that, on older ipods :)
20:55:26tony_o i didnt know that lol
20:56:10Torneanyway. i'm not sure i understand, tbh.. what do you have installed now?
20:57:31tony_is there a way to make the battey last longer on it to it has isues with that
20:57:46tony_like 3 hrs then its dead
20:58:48Torneit lasts for 13-22 hours for people reporting runtimes on the wiki..
20:58:53Torneso i would say you have some major problem there
20:59:26tony_yah and when i charge my ipod it go's strate to 80% with a full charge
20:59:44Tornehow long does it last in the original firmware?
21:00:07tony_like 12 or 14
21:00:47tony_it use to do fine untill i had rockbox on it for 3 months
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21:01:55Torneanyway, iu don't know of any battery life issues with the nano2g, sorry. if it works fine in the OF then it's not your battery
21:02:14Torneas for booting: if you want a boot menu, install emCORE, which is kinda the replacement for iloader
21:02:18Tornebut that's not going to make it boot any faster
21:02:24Tornethe OF does just take ages to start
21:02:37Torneyou don't see it normally because the OF never powers the device off, only goes into sleep mode
21:03:35tony_well i lick rockbox because i can have beter sound and the theams
21:04:13tony_its been crashing allot lately i think its time for a new one
21:05:11tony_and how do i install emcore when i have a ubuntu computer ?
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21:08:06tony_thx for the help Torne i just need to figer out how to install it now
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21:12:53tony_:| i hate liux and ubuntu :|
21:17:06tony_do i have to deleat iloader and stick emcore on it ???????????????
21:17:28tony_or what?
21:17:54tony_im 13 so help me some im good at this stuff but not supe good
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21:58:51Lalufupiggz: please have a look at this:
21:59:01tony_ok :|
22:00:14tony_damn thats long
22:00:51tony_y dont u just boot it in the orignal os then?
22:00:53tony_for doing that
22:02:34tony_crap sorry brain fart
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22:25:21lovasoaGood evening!
22:27:31lovasoaI'm currently following the "Simple guide to compiling" (
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22:28:36lovasoaAnd it advices me to use the rockbox/tools/ script.
22:29:06lovasoaBut this script uses by default to download a compiler
22:29:25Bagderlovasoa: switch to another gnu mirror instead by setting the GNU_MIRROR env variable
22:29:34lovasoaAnd, as you may know, is currently down
22:29:56lovasoa@Badger: it's exactly what I have done
22:31:16lovasoaBut as this script is part of the Simple Guide To compiling, we may change the default value, so that linux newbies don't have to tweak the install process
22:31:26BagderI agree
22:31:35Bagdersomeone should do it! =)
22:31:53Tornethe problem with using gnu's mirrors in general is it seems they are not all laid out the same
22:31:57lovasoaDoes anyone has commit access here?
22:32:27Tornei had a toolchain build script for pycorn which used the gnu mirror redirect and it failed randomly depending what country you were in because the paths were different :/
22:33:00piggzLalufu: the dock, she says 'unsupported device connected'
22:34:20lovasoaI'm currently using , and it seems to work
22:34:36Torneright, but that is not ideal for people who aren't in france :)
22:35:19lovasoaWe just have to pick one mirror that works, and make it the default until comes back, isn't it?
22:35:35lovasoaDon't we?
22:40:25Lalufupiggz: you've got two devices, right?
22:41:07piggzLalufu: the other is very similar, 5g 30gb video, and it doesnt have rockbox on atm as its my daughters
22:41:22Lalufuno, not another iPod. another device to plug the ipod into.
22:41:34Lalufuor did I misunderstand you there?
22:41:37piggzLalufu: yes, it works in that one
22:41:51Lalufucan you get me the log from there, too?
22:41:56piggzdoesnt turn to usb mode though
22:42:12Lalufuthat's OK.
22:42:17piggzone minte
22:43:45piggzLalufu: how do i clear the log file, reboot?
22:44:47soap_thank you for this, Lalufu.
22:45:02Lalufuit's a ring buffer, so you cannot really fill it, but the old content will stay there until overwritten
22:48:46piggzLalufu: hmm, its not working in my other dock now...
22:49:56LalufuI know I broke some things are broken in the new code right now, especially "simple" playback controls.
22:50:05Lalufubut there ought to be something in the log.
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22:52:07LalufuOK. At least that one is trying to talk to us.
22:53:24piggzLalufu: im glad you can ascertain that from the log ;)
22:53:30CIA-14New commit by buschel (r30565): Fix some 'set but not used' warnings.
22:53:40LalufuWhat do you have configured under Settings->General->System->Serial bitrate ?
22:55:09bertrikLalufu, you understand how IAP autobaud works, right?
22:55:26CIA-14r30565 build result: All green
22:55:41LalufuIt's rather clever, I think, but it might fail.
22:55:57LalufuI think we might need some logging in the serial driver, to see if there is any action at all.
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22:56:36bertrikI think we should get autobaud documented somewhere (like in the code and in the wiki)
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23:00:41Lalufupiggz: how old is the new device, the one that does not work with the 5.5?
23:00:52Lalufudoes it work with the original firmware?
23:00:53piggzLalufu: quite new
23:01:12piggzLalufu: well, it doesnt seem to work with my daughers....
23:01:20piggzand my ipod is 'special'
23:01:26Lalufuas in?
23:01:39piggzit doesnt work with the original firmware at all, but rockbox works fine :)
23:01:53Lalufuah well.
23:02:32piggzprobably some hardware issue that rockbox doesnt care about, but the orginal firmware hangs on the apple logo
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23:03:31LalufuHm. There are basically two ways for a device to communicate with an iPod using the 30-pin-connector. Serial, and USB.
23:04:02LalufuSerial is ancient, available from the earliest models, and even the touch still does it.
23:04:21Lalufurockbox supports serial as a transport mechanism.
23:04:42Lalufuthe second one is USB.
23:04:59Lalufuthis is only supported in newer models, it uses the same protocol, but a faster and more reliable transport.
23:05:09Lalufurockbox does not support this (yet)
23:05:19Lalufuit might be that your device only does USB.
23:06:43soap_Does the dock claim to work with older iPods?
23:06:47saratogais it possible to log if a device tries to initiate a USB connection? seems like something our USB driver would probably notice
23:06:55soap_If it doesn't I would take that a good clue it is uning USB transport.
23:07:14piggzthat is the manual, the spec in the back lists the compatible ipods
23:07:41soap_saratoga, I'm guessing it /does/ notice as the symptom is his Rockbox going to USB disk mode, then back to normal upon insertion into the dock.
23:08:16saratogaah then yes that does sound like its using USB
23:08:18piggzsoap_: it stays in disk mode
23:08:46soap_my bad. I thought it only went in briefly.
23:09:31saratogapiggz: that device only supports ipods with USB accessory support
23:09:41saratogaso its probably using USB rather then serial and we don't yet support that
23:09:54piggzah ok...where did you see that in the manual?
23:10:34saratogapage 73, list of supported ipods
23:11:19piggzah, i guess you deduce that from the list of ipods not listing old ones...
23:11:32piggzi look forward to rockbox someday supporting that feature then :)
23:14:22Tornesaratoga: i don't think there is a *connection* to log.. isn't the USB protocol just spcial SCSI requests?
23:14:29TorneI think it happens *after* already mounting..
23:14:50Tornewe could still spot it if we knew what to look for
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23:15:35saratogalabno idea, i'm not a USB guy
23:15:47saratogalabbut it seems like the USB driver must notice when weird commands show up
23:15:57saratogalabperhaps it could be programmed to logf them
23:16:03Tornewell, i expect it does, but logf is off by deafult :)
23:16:12ukleinekMSC is special SCSI I think
23:16:37Torneukleinek: no, the USB transport for IAP. not MSC.
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23:17:56Lalufuthe USB transport works via HID
23:18:31TorneOh, hm
23:19:09saratogalabif its just throwing HID commands at us that are equivalent to the serial commands we already handle, how much work is it to make the USB controller pass them to the IAP code?
23:19:51Lalufuthe tricky part is to detect what the host expects from us.
23:19:52Torneassuming our HID driver is an acceptable endpoint for it to talk to in the first place, i imagine very little
23:20:09Tornebut yeha, we may need to present our interfaces different for it to believe we are talkable-to in the first place
23:20:36Lalufuthe OF has the same problem.
23:20:53Lalufuthey solve this via an external resistor.
23:21:03Lalufubuilt into the device somewhere.
23:21:16Tornei can't see why th accessory detect pin would be needed for that
23:21:21Lalufuthe ipod measures the value of the resistor and decides what to to based on the value
23:21:28Tornebut it doesn't need to decide..
23:21:30 Part lovasoa
23:21:48Tornewhat is it deciding between, here?
23:21:57Lalufuif the resistor is 191k (or somewhere in that region) the HID is offered as the primary USB config
23:22:04ukleinekisn't it easy for the device as the host sends a request and the device just reacton on whatever it sees?
23:22:07Lalufuotherwise, mass storage is the primary config
23:22:24Tornereally? that's a horrendous design
23:22:32Torneusb supports multiple configurations for a reason..
23:23:02Tornebut anyway, if htat's how it works we can trivially do that
23:23:16Tornewe already know how to read the adc for that pin
23:23:23Lalufuah, fun!
23:24:32LalufuI'm currently trying to talk to an OF iPod via HID, so far with astonishingly little success
23:25:06Tornedo you have, say, a usb protocol analyser? :)
23:25:11Torne(because, er, we do)
23:25:13saratogalabwon't that fail because you can't pass the encrypted handshake?
23:26:32LalufuTorne: all that stuff is actually documented, currently I blame my misfortune on my lack of understanding of how HID is supposed to work, and a lack of familiarity with libusb and libhod
23:26:36Lalufulibhid, even
23:27:54Lalufusaratogalab: if I could get the iPod to reject my attempt to do an authentication I'd be pleased.
23:28:11 Join factor [0] (~factor@
23:31:18Lalufuapart from all that: getting input from USB into IAP should not be that hard.
23:34:12tmztis IAP USB host or client on the iPod side?
23:34:43Lalufuthe device is usually the host, no the ipod
23:35:13tmztis that the case for the usb storage interface (camera connection kit) for iPad?
23:35:31Torneno, but that's not IAP
23:35:32gevaertsThe camera connection kit isn't IAP as far as I know
23:35:34Tornethat's just a MSC host
23:36:22tmztokay, I know they were blocking other devices using that connection but that was probably based on usb indentifiers, not iap authentication chip
23:36:34saratogalabi saw some chinese sites have a protocol specification for ipads, but i didn't look into it
23:36:50saratogalabits probably using public key encryption like the ipods do
23:42:39soap_Is there such a thing as an IAP authenticaion chip or just the same misinrofmed rumors as such as cropped up over the "headphone authentication chip" for the buttonless shuffle?
23:44:09LalufuiAP defines authentication, in both directions.
23:44:22Lalufuthe ipod can authenticate the device, and the device can authenticate the ipod
23:44:50Lalufuauthentication is necessary for some commands.
23:45:20Lalufumost things interesting to rockbox work without authentication via serial, but almost any command is authenticated via USB.
23:45:59 Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214])
23:46:26saratogalabsoap_: there is a chip (and in fact a datasheet for it floating around), but its not used over the headphone jack
23:46:32saratogalabjust IAP
23:46:51soap_What does this authentication do? Prove the device maker payed the right people or???
23:47:07saratogalabthat and prove that the device is an ipod and not something else hacked to work with IAP
23:47:18 Quit tjb0607 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
23:47:28saratogalabalthough its unclear how well they've secured the second case
23:47:35saratogalabthey're mostly just interested in getting paid i think
23:48:32soap_Ok, is Apple is paranoid about clone devices being able to use accessories then why are any accessories sold (now) which don't require said authentication? And IF a majority are sold wanting such authentication what chance does Rockbox have of supporting such accessories ever?
23:49:09 Join tjb0607 [0] (
23:49:44saratogalabthats not entirely clear
23:50:10saratogalabthey've definitely taken steps to ensure that authentication happens securely, but i have no idea what devices will actually implement it
23:53:10Lalufuthe hope is that most devices just authenticate themselves to the ipod (and we can fake that), not the other way around.
23:55:12soap_thanks for the knowledge
23:56:23saratogalablets hope apple wasn't too concerned about people writing IAP apps for android
23:58:17 Join doggg [0] (~soap@
23:58:32 Part doggg
23:58:51 Join soap__ [0] (~soap@

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