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| 00:27:17 | CIA-14 | New commit by pamaury (r30562): sbtools: implement more complicated integer expression in db files, implement data sections, section attributes, file options, rework command line ... |
| 00:29:17 | CIA-14 | r30562 build result: All green |
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| 08:51:27 | evilnick | [Saint_AndChat]: What I meant was that there's no easy/obvious (at least to me!) way of going from the wps to the Playlist Viewer *and then* to reshuffle that playlist |
| 08:52:42 | evilnick | It seems (to me) that it's a reasonable assumption that the Reshuffle/Save options should be reachable easily from the Playlist Viewer |
| 08:52:48 | [Saint_AndChat] | I'm not too familiar with the playlistviewer. |
| 08:52:59 | [Saint_AndChat] | Bit it should be possible. |
| 08:53:35 | [Saint_AndChat] | It probably should be added to the playlist viewers context menu if its not there already. |
| 08:53:52 | evilnick | My usage pattern is usually: Shuffle everything, then go to the Playlistviewer and then "tweak" which songs are coming up next, so having to go back to the wps and then use the context menu seems a step too many(?) |
| 08:53:57 | [Saint_AndChat] | And I trust it isn't or there'd be no issue. |
| 08:54:42 | evilnick | Well, on my phone at least there are two hardware buttons (well, volume and power too, but they have functions already): Menu and Back |
| 08:55:07 | evilnick | Menu takes me to the Main Menu, and Back takes me back to the WPS |
| 08:55:14 | evilnick | (from playlistviewer |
| 08:55:15 | evilnick | ) |
| 08:55:22 | [Saint_AndChat] | It wouldn't be hard to add this to the playlist viewers context menu. |
| 08:55:31 | [Saint_AndChat] | It seems a sane addition. |
| 08:55:42 | [Saint_AndChat] | Then you'd need no hw keys. |
| 08:56:12 | * | evilnick nods |
| 08:56:52 | [Saint_AndChat] | I'll poke Jd about it (its his baby (playlist viewer)) when he pops in, unless you get to him first. |
| 08:58:15 | rbbrittain | Too bad Buschel's not on here right now; his patch in FS #12268 unbroke my own Sansa e200's large-font FM skin. Anyone want to look at it and perhaps commit it? |
| 08:58:15 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12268 multiple WPS fonts not loading since r30478 (bugs, new) |
| 09:00 |
| 09:01:10 | [Saint_AndChat] | rbbrittain: buschel is capable of commuting it himself. If he thought it was ready, or that it didn't require more testing/review/or a better solution...it'd be in svn already. |
| 09:01:32 | [Saint_AndChat] | Bah! * committing |
| 09:02:42 | [Saint_AndChat] | Oh...right. if I'm thinking of same patch. Its not "his" to commit. |
| 09:03:40 | [Saint_AndChat] | Its still being developed iiuc. |
| 09:04:54 | [Saint_AndChat] | Ah....I'm confusing things. Right. That patch would fix things in the short term. |
| 09:05:00 | rbbrittain | You may be confusing it with FS #12273, which Buschel said also fixed that issue but definitely needs more development. |
| 09:05:00 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12273 use buflib for fonts (patches, new) |
| 09:05:31 | [Saint_AndChat] | There's another effort currently to get fonts using bufflib which is the %right" fix. |
| 09:05:42 | [Saint_AndChat] | *"right" |
| 09:06:10 | [Saint_AndChat] | rbbrittain: I was confusing the two, yes. Aplolgies. |
| 09:06:40 | [Saint_AndChat] | The latter is the "right" way to approach this. |
| 09:10:25 | rbbrittain | I agree, but IMO the first patch should be committed right away as a short-term fix for broken large-font skins. |
| 09:10:38 | [Saint_AndChat] | You could try (for now), either using the patch you're using...or altering your skins to only load <X> needed chars at a time. |
| 09:12:18 | rbbrittain | Characters wasn't the issue in my case; it was font size. My FM screen uses a 35-point font for the frequency display, which breaks the skin. |
| 09:12:44 | rbbrittain | The only way around that in my own testing was to reduce the font to 15 points or less. |
| 09:13:11 | [Saint_AndChat] | Limiting the chars should have the exact same effect. |
| 09:15:24 | evilnick | soap: I don't understand your reply on: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,28832.0.html |
| 09:16:24 | [Saint_AndChat] | Fonts using bufflib *is* the correct fix here, and a very sane thing to do which doesn't needlessly rob buffer from those that don't care about multiple fonts. |
| 09:17:55 | [Saint_AndChat] | Jd doesn't have a habit of letting code he writes rot...it'll be committed when its ready. |
| 09:18:25 | rbbrittain | Perhaps, but my issue is *not* number of characters. In my case, the text is merely "xx.x FM"; it's just in a 35-point font. |
| 09:18:45 | [Saint_AndChat] | Until then, it seems you're capable of compiling yourself(?). |
| 09:19:22 | rbbrittain | Reducing the font to 15 points or less fixed it, but it made the numbers extremely small. (And yes, though I'm a relative noob, I did compile it myself.) |
| 09:20:01 | [Saint_AndChat] | Right, then. Problem solved. :) |
| 09:20:19 | [Saint_AndChat] | Use the patch until fonts use bufflib properly. |
| 09:20:56 | [Saint_AndChat] | ...which, should be sooner than later. |
| 09:22:23 | [Saint_AndChat] | rbbrittain: I'm curious though about one thing. Is this a theme you're just now developing? Or did it break recently? |
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| 09:22:57 | [Saint_AndChat] | If the former, I'd just say to pay more attention to available skin buffer, that's why I ask. |
| 09:23:54 | rbbrittain | It was actually developed originally by someone else; I modified it only to respect 12-hour vs. 24-hour clock settings. |
| 09:24:48 | Torne | rbbrittain: i think you are misunderstanding what saint means.. there is a parameter to the font tag to specify *how much memory* to use for that font, in terms of how many characters to have room to load at once |
| 09:25:07 | [Saint_AndChat] | When fonts (or themes in general) can use bufflib fully you'll be able to steal as much of your playback buffer as you want for skins and it only affects you. You dig? |
| 09:25:14 | Torne | For "xx.x FM" you only need to load 14 characters |
| 09:25:28 | * | [Saint_AndChat] nods |
| 09:25:37 | Torne | the digits 0-9, F, M, period, space (not sure if space is actually a glyph) |
| 09:25:40 | [Saint_AndChat] | I assumed we were on the same page. |
| 09:25:44 | [Saint_AndChat] | Guess not. |
| 09:26:04 | Torne | It's not about how many characters you display on the screen at one time, it's about how many you will *ever* display |
| 09:26:18 | Torne | the skin engine has no way of knowing you are only going to need 14 characters from the font |
| 09:26:25 | Torne | so it allocates lots of memory for it because it's a big font. |
| 09:26:33 | Torne | if you tell it, instead, then it can allocate less :) |
| 09:26:35 | rbbrittain | As I said, the issue in my case was never characters; it was font size. That may be why big fonts need a lot of memory. |
| 09:26:51 | Torne | argh |
| 09:27:10 | Torne | no |
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| 09:27:12 | Torne | you are wrong |
| 09:27:29 | [Saint_AndChat] | ....one way of putting it. |
| 09:28:01 | Torne | when you load a font it allocates enough memory to load the whole font, unless some limit in bytes that i forget is exceeded |
| 09:28:16 | Torne | a 35-point font is pretty large, in bytes |
| 09:28:31 | Torne | but it also has several dozen different characters in it (letters, symbols, etc) |
| 09:28:52 | [Saint_AndChat] | That you'll likely never use. |
| 09:28:53 | Torne | if you tell the ssystem that you *only need to load 14 different characters ever* then it will only allocate 14 times the size of one 35-point character |
| 09:29:09 | Torne | instead of, say, 80 times the size of one character |
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| 09:29:15 | Torne | assuming the font has 80 glyphs in it |
| 09:29:19 | Torne | it probably has more |
| 09:29:40 | brar | i used rock box on my media player 2 years back |
| 09:30:00 | rbbrittain | Then how do you tell it you only need 14 characters at 35 points? |
| 09:30:01 | brar | that was great .. |
| 09:30:12 | Torne | rbbrittain: you read the skin syntax documentation :) |
| 09:30:12 | [Saint_AndChat] | The manual, or customwps should describe how to do font char limiting. Consult it. |
| 09:30:21 | Torne | it's an extra argument to the font loading tag |
| 09:30:25 | Torne | i don't recall what it is |
| 09:30:36 | * | [Saint_AndChat] nods |
| 09:31:12 | [Saint_AndChat] | Iirc, I think its just ",value" appended to the font declaration. |
| 09:31:13 | rbbrittain | OK, I'll have to look at it. As I said before, someone else wrote the code; if the size can be limited, that's a good thing−−buflib or no buflib, patch or no patch. |
| 09:31:26 | Torne | well, not really |
| 09:31:42 | Torne | because there is no way to specify *which* glyphs are needed it can be slower |
| 09:31:52 | Torne | until it's actually loaded each used glyph once |
| 09:31:53 | [Saint_AndChat] | No if, it *can* be limited. And bufflib is good, limit or no limit ;) |
| 09:32:10 | Torne | if you have enough ram it's preferable to just load the whole damn font |
| 09:32:17 | Torne | :) |
| 09:32:36 | Torne | because loading a whole font is really simple and efficient, and loading individual glyphs and LRU-caching them is a pain |
| 09:33:36 | Torne | the "ideal" is to make a new versoin o the font that only has the glyphs you are going to use to start with :p |
| 09:33:52 | Torne | but then you have to distribute an extra font with the skin, so eh |
| 09:34:08 | | Part brar |
| 09:34:36 | [Saint_AndChat] | Probably easier to use bitmaps for this. |
| 09:34:56 | [Saint_AndChat] | Its 0~9 and F M |
| 09:35:11 | Torne | i don't know that there's a sensible way to display the number using bitmaps |
| 09:35:19 | Torne | if it's alwas FM then yes, make that bit a bitmap ) |
| 09:35:23 | Torne | then you only need 11 characters :p |
| 09:36:11 | [Saint_AndChat] | Ah...hmmm, the decimal might make it interesting, yeah. |
| 09:37:03 | [Saint_AndChat] | Were it like volume etc. easy as pie |
| 09:37:08 | rbbrittain | From comparing the wiki to the actual code, it seems the original writer allocated 50 glyphs for the huge font. (The default is 256.) |
| 09:37:49 | rbbrittain | You'd need 0-9, a decimal point, a space, and the letters F & M. That's 14. |
| 09:38:54 | rbbrittain | Would simply reducing it to 14 glyphs be good, or does that create more problems? |
| 09:38:54 | [Saint_AndChat] | Limiting the other fonts used will reduce total skin ram used, also. |
| 09:39:38 | [Saint_AndChat] | Depending on what fonts are used, there's a lot of potential for most of it to never be displayed. |
| 09:40:48 | [Saint_AndChat] | And no...limiting the displayed chars will have no ill effect unless you try to display more chars than you allow. |
| 09:41:04 | [Saint_AndChat] | In this instance, its a known value, so it's fine. |
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| 09:42:51 | rbbrittain | I'm looking at other parts of his WPS code too. All his fonts are either 50 or 150 glyphs, but unless you're displaying a station name you shouldn't need that many. |
| 09:44:52 | rbbrittain | The skin actually uses more graphics than anything else; there's not that many actual characters, especially since the numbers on his dial appear to be part of the graphic. |
| 09:48:27 | [Saint_AndChat] | Right...well, there'll never be commits to svn to fix bad theme syntax ;) |
| 09:49:27 | [Saint_AndChat] | Seems like you'd be better off re-writing it. |
| 09:49:54 | rbbrittain | That's the direction I'm looking at right now. Thanks for your help. |
| 09:50:50 | | Quit rbbrittain (Quit: CGI:IRC) |
| 09:51:02 | [Saint_AndChat] | Speaking of bad themes... |
| 09:51:32 | * | [Saint_AndChat] fires up a machine and pokes at RaaA cabbie. |
| 10:00 |
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| 10:11:50 | * | [Saint] pokes evilnick |
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| 10:14:59 | [Saint] | Would it be of any use to have the repeat button reset to "off" on a long press? Cycling through the repeat modes seems a bit of a PITA. |
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| 10:17:28 | [Saint] | I think I'll have the repeat mode button bring up a pop-up like the volume and context/quickscreen/filebrowser pop-up. |
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| 11:00 |
| 11:11:13 | JdGordon | reading the logs, we now actually can use bitmpa stripts to draw text (for numberS) using the %ss tag :) |
| 11:11:47 | JdGordon | I cant remember if gevaerts commited his char-to-number tag or not |
| 11:13:04 | JdGordon | [Saint]: what was the talk about theplaylist viewer problems? |
| 11:15:36 | [Saint] | JdGordon: evilnick noted that there was no easy way to do "shuffle all" prom the playlistviewer context menu. |
| 11:15:43 | [Saint] | *from. |
| 11:16:44 | [Saint] | And it struck me that that'd be a pretty cool thing to be able to do from the playlistviewer. |
| 11:17:27 | [Saint] | *s/shuffle all/reshuffle playlist/ |
| 11:18:55 | JdGordon | should be simple |
| 11:20:05 | JdGordon | err, you sure you cant? |
| 11:20:50 | [Saint] | If there's a way to, I can't find it...and nor can EvanCarroll, apparently. |
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| 11:21:43 | [Saint] | binging up the contextmenu in the playlistviewer gives "current playlist, playlist catalogue, remove, move, save current playlist" |
| 11:21:52 | JdGordon | ah, yep, ok, I'll add it |
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| 11:29:21 | CIA-14 | New commit by jdgordon (r30563): Add an option to shuffle the playlist in the playlist viewer |
| 11:29:44 | [Saint] | and evilnick rejoices. |
| 11:31:18 | CIA-14 | r30563 build result: All green |
| 11:31:47 | JdGordon | there appears to be a bug in the save playlist option though |
| 11:32:03 | JdGordon | probably should fix it :) |
| 11:32:41 | [Saint] | Oh? What's wrong with it? |
| 11:32:54 | JdGordon | it crashes :) |
| 11:33:00 | * | [Saint] never saves playlists. |
| 11:33:02 | JdGordon | unrelated to that commit |
| 11:40:50 | JdGordon | apparently using "save dynamic playlist" from the viewer context menu without music playing causes a crash |
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| 12:04:09 | rbbrittain | A follow-up to my earlier IRC chat: I was able to reduce the font glyph sizes (and disable a few excess fonts) so that my theme now runs in r30563 without the patch. |
| 12:04:39 | [Saint] | \o/ |
| 12:05:08 | rbbrittain | I uploaded the revisions to the theme site. Thanks for your help! |
| 12:05:34 | | Quit rbbrittain (Quit: CGI:IRC) |
| 12:06:14 | * | evilnick thanks [Saint] and JdGordon |
| 12:06:34 | [Saint] | heh...I didn't do squat ;) |
| 12:11:05 | * | evilnick doesn't kill the messenger, he _thanks_ the messenger! |
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| 12:12:05 | * | JdGordon doesnt mind the occasional thank you :) |
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| 12:16:46 | [Saint] | We could probably make a bot that popped in and thanked you at variable intervals :) |
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| 13:11:01 | gevaerts | JdGordon: I didn't. Unless someone sits down and thinks about how it can work properly, I don't think it's worth it |
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| 13:17:57 | gevaerts | The problem with such char-to-number tag is that it has to output a limited range if it's to be at all useful with bitmap strips, but it has to support full unicode if it's to be useful with actual text |
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| 13:27:49 | gevaerts | If we want to support something like this, I suspect it'll have to use a font-like LRU system, so I think the best way would be to see what's missing to actually use the font system |
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| 15:29:35 | soap | evilnick, is he or is he not expressing confusion over why one of his iPod docks works and the other does not? |
| 15:30:48 | soap | Once you strip away the audiofoolerly that's what he's saying. |
| 15:31:20 | soap | "I then proceeded to test it on two Zeppelins, the new air edition and the normal edition, much to my lack of knowledge I couldn't get it to work with the Air but did get it to work with the normal Zeppelin, I connected it and it would go into USB mode briefly and then come back to the player," |
| 15:31:46 | soap | But everyone decided to bash him on his audiofool nature instead of trying to help him with his one expressed problem |
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| 15:32:52 | soap | They are Rockbox forums, not HydrogenAudio forums and people are allowed to make statements which are not substantiated with blind listening tests. |
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| 16:46:25 | [Saint_AndChat] | Bah! rasher 's builds are *one* revision behind something I wanted to test dammit! :D |
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| 16:57:35 | [Saint_AndChat] | Fs#12268 |
| 16:57:36 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12268 multiple WPS fonts not loading since r30478 (bugs, new) |
| 16:57:51 | piggz | hi...i have 2 sony ipod docks, and an ipod video 5.5g running a recent rockbox. On the older dock everythin works fine, but the newer causes rockbox to go into usb mode, and doesnt work....any ideas? |
| 16:57:58 | JdGordon | [Saint_AndChat]: you putz! :) |
| 16:58:23 | [Saint_AndChat] | The word is "lazy putz" ;) |
| 16:59:38 | soap | piggz, rockbox's support for Apple's Accessory Protocol is incomplete. Have you tried preventing Rockbox from entering USB mode when inserting the iPod into the second dock? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:11 | | Quit jordan` (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 17:00:15 | soap | http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodAccessories |
| 17:00:34 | soap | Depending on how much effort you are willing to to through to fix this I can point you in a variety of directions. |
| 17:00:56 | [Saint_AndChat] | Are both iPod branded? Are either? |
| 17:01:50 | [Saint_AndChat] | One may just be treating it as removable storage, which will "just work". |
| 17:02:05 | soap | with an Apple dock port? |
| 17:02:58 | soap | I'm not saying such do not exist, but I have not seen a single iPod accessory dock with a dock connector which assumes UMS. |
| 17:03:19 | soap | plenty of accessories with a generic USB port, on the other hand... |
| 17:04:26 | piggz | [Saint_AndChat]: both docks are sony...the newer one which doesnt work is a dab/internet radio type |
| 17:05:07 | [Saint_AndChat] | I have a non-Apple dock that fails to read from the ipods OF, but happily treats it ad a removable device and plays files added in disk mode. I guess I assumed it may be more common than I thought. It was cheap ad chips so I wasn't surprised. |
| 17:05:18 | piggz | to be fair to rockbox, i think it also doesnt work with my daughters standard ipod video 5g running original firmware |
| 17:09:14 | piggz | hmm, the manuyal claims it should be compatible |
| 17:09:30 | piggz | soap: how to prevent it entering usb mode? |
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| 17:10:08 | soap | Press and hold "Menu" (any key now?) while inserting ipod into connector. |
| 17:10:40 | Lalufu | soap: those things exist, I have seen at least one. |
| 17:10:57 | [Saint_AndChat] | Any key now, yeah. Quite correct. |
| 17:11:15 | piggz | soap: ok.. |
| 17:11:17 | soap | Lalufu, yuck, Just what the world needs. |
| 17:11:28 | [Saint_AndChat] | Except hold, of course. Which will boot the OF. |
| 17:13:29 | soap | So, piggz, there are at least three ways we can play this. 1 is you pretend this never happened and never come here again. ;) 2 is you report your knowledge to me and I'll add your findings to the wiki to share the knowledge on accessories. 3 is you work with one of the developers to help discover /why/ your iPod doesn't know the language the problematic dock is speaking and perhaps, through a fair amount of back-and-forth, get the communication wor |
| 17:13:30 | soap | king. |
| 17:13:31 | | Quit ender` (Quit: Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia.) |
| 17:13:36 | [Saint_AndChat] | soap: Yep, I thought it was odd. But I only paid...well, next to nothing for it. It took an age for me to notice that no, its not broken, I have to put the iPod in disk mode *then* it'll read from the disk. |
| 17:14:11 | [Saint_AndChat] | ...but not the iPod DB, obviously. |
| 17:15:00 | soap | and it will find music in the IpodControl folder, [Saint_AndChat]? And allow one to navigate it in a reasonable manner? Oh, so it only treats your iPod as a UMS device AND has an iPod connector? So it won't actually work with any normal iPod? |
| 17:16:36 | [Saint_AndChat] | No, it knows nothing of the OF. I can browse iPod_control, but with the meaningless truncated Apple naming scheme its useless. |
| 17:19:00 | Lalufu | That's... interesting, as a concept. |
| 17:19:58 | piggz | soap: im happy to help out to make it work...i just tried holding a button while plugging it in, and it didnt go to usb mode, but the dock flashed 'unsupported device connected' and i get no audio |
| 17:20:28 | [Saint_AndChat] | "cheap and broken" is better wording, I think. |
| 17:20:36 | piggz | i also tried the daughters 5g, which is supposed to work, but that flashes up 'attempting to connect to device' and eventually gives up |
| 17:20:42 | soap | broken by design, [Saint_AndChat] |
| 17:20:59 | [Saint_AndChat] | I should dig it out of hiding and poke at it. |
| 17:21:33 | piggz | model is sony nas-sv20di |
| 17:21:52 | soap | piggz, interesting about the stock 5G not working either. A little more research sounds in order to see if that device is expected to work with said accessory. If it is expected to work than there isn't a whole lot of point to moving forward as the device may be broken. |
| 17:22:27 | piggz | soap: works fine with wifes ipod nano 4g |
| 17:22:47 | piggz | (or worked until yesterday, when said ipod nano went missing! :/) |
| 17:22:59 | Lalufu | piggz: I'm currently working on improving IAP (the protocol spoken between iPods and accessories) support in rockbox. |
| 17:23:05 | Lalufu | I might be able to help you out. |
| 17:23:06 | Lalufu | But. |
| 17:23:40 | Lalufu | a) the work is ongoing, far from complete, and not supported by the rockbox devs or anyone in this channel except for me |
| 17:24:26 | Lalufu | even with this work, the accessory may remain unsupported |
| 17:24:34 | soap | see also http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9951 and the one Lalufu's been working on http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12135 |
| 17:25:21 | soap | also verify you have the accessory protocol turned on (should be on by default) and the accessory power supply turned on from within rockbox (should be on by default). |
| 17:25:48 | soap | anything I'm missing Lalufu? |
| 17:25:59 | soap | I've been mostly out of the loop these last few months. |
| 17:26:48 | piggz | soap: where is the accessory protocol option? |
| 17:26:49 | Lalufu | b) you will be asked to try out custom firmware build, which are again unsupported by rockbox, and might damage files on your iPod, or the iPod itself (although the latter is unlikely) |
| 17:27:12 | Lalufu | c) even if my work is someday completed it might never be accepted into a rockbox official release |
| 17:27:53 | soap | piggz, accessory power supply is under general settings. |
| 17:27:55 | bertrik | I've worked a bit on IAP too, but I don't have the proper hardware to test things |
| 17:28:15 | linuxstb | Lalufu: Why might it not be accepted? |
| 17:28:34 | bertrik | I got stuck with the IAP large packet support because there are still unexplained hangs with large packets |
| 17:29:17 | [Saint_AndChat] | linuxstb: perhaps he REALLY likes tabs instead of spaces? ;) |
| 17:29:43 | bertrik | I have a nano 1g (which supports IAP) and a knock-off button remote, but the button remote doesn't seem to follow IAP specification |
| 17:30:06 | Lalufu | but it works with the OF? |
| 17:30:26 | bertrik | yes |
| 17:30:34 | soap | and, piggz, file damage from the sorts of poking around Lalufu would be asking of you is extremely unlikely and totally fixable. |
| 17:30:42 | bertrik | actually I haven't tested IAP much with the OF |
| 17:32:31 | piggz | Lalufu: im all for custom unsuported versions ;) |
| 17:33:07 | bertrik | Lalufu, what do you think about the state machine approach in IAP? IMO it's a lot cleaner than the hacks we have now. I think we can commit at least that part and investigate the hangs that AndyP sees later. |
| 17:33:11 | piggz | soap: i see the accessory power supply option, but no protcol option |
| 17:33:35 | soap | piggz, yes, I might be mistaken about that, let me grab an ipod. |
| 17:33:47 | Lalufu | bertrik: I like it. A lot. |
| 17:34:15 | Lalufu | I have no idea where the hangs come from, but I'm not convinced it's the IAP parsing code. |
| 17:34:57 | Lalufu | there were some cases in which the iPod would not accept new commands, but I do not see how the code could cause a complete hang of the player. |
| 17:37:01 | [Saint_AndChat] | Iirc, there's no setting for IAP. |
| 17:37:21 | [Saint_AndChat] | Just accessory power supply. |
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| 17:38:28 | soap | Lalufu, was thinking system:serial bitrate. |
| 17:38:54 | soap | and, obviously, line-out (again should be on by default and demonstrably on due to other accessory working). |
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| 17:40:01 | Lalufu | soap: the (current, released) IAP code has automatic bitrate matching |
| 17:40:48 | [Saint_AndChat] | So...that setting is needless? |
| 17:40:54 | soap | g2g, bbl, but I'm really the least helpful one here so don't sweat it. ;) |
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| 17:41:47 | [Saint_AndChat] | Serial bitrate, I mean. |
| 17:42:00 | Lalufu | automatic matching might not work. And if you have set the speed, and there is a mismatch, things don't work. |
| 17:42:09 | bertrik | [Saint_AndChat], I think being able to set the serial bitrate just makes *really* sure that the bitrate is set at the desired rate |
| 17:42:23 | [Saint_AndChat] | Ah, right. |
| 17:42:39 | [Saint_AndChat] | Just wondering if it was a "leftover". |
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| 17:45:58 | Lalufu | piggz: OK, which of your ipods are you willing to risk in the name of science? |
| 17:46:59 | [Saint_AndChat] | ...not that there's much actual risk ;) |
| 17:47:59 | [Saint_AndChat] | Making IAP code kill HW would be impressive. |
| 17:50:36 | soap | stop saying "risk" please. The risk is non-zero but lower than mounting to an unknown Windows box. |
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| 18:00:09 | piggz | Lalufu: my 5.5g |
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| 18:10:54 | Lalufu | piggz: this might take a little bit. You'll be around here? |
| 18:11:56 | piggz | Lalufu: yes, im irc a lot, #kexi, #meego, #maemo and #harmattan |
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| 18:48:03 | Lalufu | piggz: you're using the ipodcolor-firmware right now? |
| 18:48:48 | piggz | Lalufu: ipod-video |
| 18:49:28 | Lalufu | ah, ok |
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| 19:20:28 | CIA-14 | New commit by bertrik (r30564): plugins: make local functions static for a subset of plugins |
| 19:22:29 | CIA-14 | r30564 build result: 0 errors, 8 warnings (bertrik committed) |
| 19:23:12 | bertrik | oh, revenge of the [-Wunused-but-set-variable] |
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| 20:45:25 | tony_ | hellow? |
| 20:45:58 | tony_ | is anybody here |
| 20:46:07 | bertrik | tony_, just ask if you have a question, you might not get an immediate response though. |
| 20:46:36 | tony_ | ok |
| 20:47:08 | tony_ | i have a ipod nano 2g with rockbox on it but i am trying to get iloader on it |
| 20:47:17 | tony_ | and it wont work |
| 20:48:43 | tony_ | do u know how to get iloader or a bootloader on a ipod nano 2g ? |
| 20:49:32 | Torne | iLoader is dead |
| 20:49:36 | bertrik | no, I don't know much about the ipod nano 2g |
| 20:49:46 | freddyb | kugel: how would you feel about trimming the playback buffer to something a bit less than 100% so a small allocation does not require a buflib_compact/shrink? |
| 20:50:53 | tony_ | :O its really dead that sucks and is there a program to make theams for rockbox or u have to make them by yourself |
| 20:51:24 | Torne | why do you want to install it? |
| 20:52:01 | kugel | freddyb: then we waste memory again |
| 20:52:12 | tony_ | beacuse it whpuld be beter and it whouldnt take as long to load rockbox |
| 20:52:25 | tony_ | or the normal os |
| 20:52:28 | Torne | huh? |
| 20:53:01 | tony_ | lol i ment i think it whould make it easyer to boot rockbox and to boot the ipod os |
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| 20:53:11 | Torne | easier than what? |
| 20:53:17 | freddyb | ok |
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| 20:54:27 | tony_ | when i boot my ipod in its origrnal os it takes 2 minuets and i have to stick it on hold so it dosent boot rockbox |
| 20:55:03 | Torne | isn't that just how long booting the OF takes? |
| 20:55:10 | Torne | it used to take even longer than that, on older ipods :) |
| 20:55:26 | tony_ | o i didnt know that lol |
| 20:56:10 | Torne | anyway. i'm not sure i understand, tbh.. what do you have installed now? |
| 20:56:43 | tony_ | rockbox |
| 20:57:31 | tony_ | is there a way to make the battey last longer on it to it has isues with that |
| 20:57:46 | tony_ | like 3 hrs then its dead |
| 20:58:48 | Torne | it lasts for 13-22 hours for people reporting runtimes on the wiki.. |
| 20:58:53 | Torne | so i would say you have some major problem there |
| 20:59:26 | tony_ | yah and when i charge my ipod it go's strate to 80% with a full charge |
| 20:59:44 | Torne | how long does it last in the original firmware? |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:07 | tony_ | like 12 or 14 |
| 21:00:47 | tony_ | it use to do fine untill i had rockbox on it for 3 months |
| 21:00:50 | | Quit stoffel (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 21:01:55 | Torne | anyway, iu don't know of any battery life issues with the nano2g, sorry. if it works fine in the OF then it's not your battery |
| 21:02:14 | Torne | as for booting: if you want a boot menu, install emCORE, which is kinda the replacement for iloader |
| 21:02:18 | Torne | but that's not going to make it boot any faster |
| 21:02:24 | Torne | the OF does just take ages to start |
| 21:02:37 | Torne | you don't see it normally because the OF never powers the device off, only goes into sleep mode |
| 21:03:35 | tony_ | well i lick rockbox because i can have beter sound and the theams |
| 21:03:40 | tony_ | like* |
| 21:04:13 | tony_ | its been crashing allot lately i think its time for a new one |
| 21:04:21 | tony_ | lol |
| 21:05:11 | tony_ | and how do i install emcore when i have a ubuntu computer ? |
| 21:06:36 | | Quit guymann_ (Quit: FBI) |
| 21:08:06 | tony_ | thx for the help Torne i just need to figer out how to install it now |
| 21:10:33 | | Quit mamarley (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) |
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| 21:12:53 | tony_ | :| i hate liux and ubuntu :| |
| 21:17:06 | tony_ | do i have to deleat iloader and stick emcore on it ??????????????? |
| 21:17:28 | tony_ | or what? |
| 21:17:54 | tony_ | im 13 so help me some im good at this stuff but not supe good |
| 21:18:08 | tony_ | supper* |
| 21:22:15 | | Quit mamarley (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) |
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| 21:58:51 | Lalufu | piggz: please have a look at this: http://www.skytale.net/rockbox/?f=rockbox-iap-r30563-941babb-110917.zip |
| 21:59:01 | tony_ | ok :| |
| 21:59:05 | tony_ | lmfoa |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:14 | tony_ | damn thats long |
| 22:00:51 | tony_ | y dont u just boot it in the orignal os then? |
| 22:00:53 | tony_ | for doing that |
| 22:02:34 | tony_ | crap sorry brain fart |
| 22:02:35 | tony_ | :P |
| 22:11:15 | | Quit tony_ (Quit: Ex-Chat) |
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| 22:11:53 | | Quit Llorean (Changing host) |
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| 22:20:29 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:24:30 | | Join lovasoa [0] (~lovasoa@2a01:e35:8a2e:8080:e2b9:a5ff:fe5b:ca7b) |
| 22:25:21 | lovasoa | Good evening! |
| 22:27:31 | lovasoa | I'm currently following the "Simple guide to compiling" (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/LinuxSimpleGuideToCompiling) |
| 22:27:34 | | Join freddyb [0] (~freddybbb@216.8.239.112.etczone.com) |
| 22:28:36 | lovasoa | And it advices me to use the rockbox/tools/rockboxdev.sh script. |
| 22:29:06 | lovasoa | But this script uses by default mirrors.kernel.org to download a compiler |
| 22:29:25 | Bagder | lovasoa: switch to another gnu mirror instead by setting the GNU_MIRROR env variable |
| 22:29:34 | lovasoa | And, as you may know, kernel.org is currently down |
| 22:29:56 | lovasoa | @Badger: it's exactly what I have done |
| 22:31:16 | lovasoa | But as this script is part of the Simple Guide To compiling, we may change the default value, so that linux newbies don't have to tweak the install process |
| 22:31:26 | Bagder | I agree |
| 22:31:35 | Bagder | someone should do it! =) |
| 22:31:53 | Torne | the problem with using gnu's mirrors in general is it seems they are not all laid out the same |
| 22:31:57 | lovasoa | Does anyone has commit access here? |
| 22:32:27 | Torne | i had a toolchain build script for pycorn which used the gnu mirror redirect and it failed randomly depending what country you were in because the paths were different :/ |
| 22:33:00 | piggz | Lalufu: the dock, she says 'unsupported device connected' |
| 22:34:20 | lovasoa | I'm currently using ftp://ftp.igh.cnrs.fr/pub/gnu/ , and it seems to work |
| 22:34:36 | Torne | right, but that is not ideal for people who aren't in france :) |
| 22:35:19 | lovasoa | We just have to pick one mirror that works, and make it the default until kernel.org comes back, isn't it? |
| 22:35:35 | lovasoa | Don't we? |
| 22:39:13 | piggz | Lalufu: http://pastebin.com/imYNLzzW |
| 22:40:25 | Lalufu | piggz: you've got two devices, right? |
| 22:41:07 | piggz | Lalufu: the other is very similar, 5g 30gb video, and it doesnt have rockbox on atm as its my daughters |
| 22:41:22 | Lalufu | no, not another iPod. another device to plug the ipod into. |
| 22:41:34 | Lalufu | or did I misunderstand you there? |
| 22:41:37 | piggz | Lalufu: yes, it works in that one |
| 22:41:51 | Lalufu | can you get me the log from there, too? |
| 22:41:56 | piggz | doesnt turn to usb mode though |
| 22:42:12 | Lalufu | that's OK. |
| 22:42:15 | piggz | ok... |
| 22:42:17 | piggz | one minte |
| 22:43:45 | piggz | Lalufu: how do i clear the log file, reboot? |
| 22:44:34 | Lalufu | yes |
| 22:44:47 | soap_ | thank you for this, Lalufu. |
| 22:45:02 | Lalufu | it's a ring buffer, so you cannot really fill it, but the old content will stay there until overwritten |
| 22:48:46 | piggz | Lalufu: hmm, its not working in my other dock now... |
| 22:49:56 | Lalufu | I know I broke some things are broken in the new code right now, especially "simple" playback controls. |
| 22:50:05 | Lalufu | but there ought to be something in the log. |
| 22:50:47 | | Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;)) |
| 22:50:50 | piggz | Lalufu: http://pastebin.com/HEF3s618 |
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| 22:52:07 | Lalufu | OK. At least that one is trying to talk to us. |
| 22:53:24 | piggz | Lalufu: im glad you can ascertain that from the log ;) |
| 22:53:30 | CIA-14 | New commit by buschel (r30565): Fix some 'set but not used' warnings. |
| 22:53:40 | Lalufu | What do you have configured under Settings->General->System->Serial bitrate ? |
| 22:54:15 | piggz | auto |
| 22:54:19 | Lalufu | hm. |
| 22:55:09 | bertrik | Lalufu, you understand how IAP autobaud works, right? |
| 22:55:16 | Lalufu | yes. |
| 22:55:26 | CIA-14 | r30565 build result: All green |
| 22:55:41 | Lalufu | It's rather clever, I think, but it might fail. |
| 22:55:57 | Lalufu | I think we might need some logging in the serial driver, to see if there is any action at all. |
| 22:56:02 | | Quit y4n (Quit: The world around me drops away, replaced by worlds being created and destroyed by my imagination.) |
| 22:56:36 | bertrik | I think we should get autobaud documented somewhere (like in the code and in the wiki) |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:06 | | Quit mc2739 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
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| 23:00:41 | Lalufu | piggz: how old is the new device, the one that does not work with the 5.5? |
| 23:00:52 | Lalufu | does it work with the original firmware? |
| 23:00:53 | piggz | Lalufu: quite new |
| 23:01:12 | piggz | Lalufu: well, it doesnt seem to work with my daughers.... |
| 23:01:20 | piggz | and my ipod is 'special' |
| 23:01:26 | Lalufu | as in? |
| 23:01:39 | piggz | it doesnt work with the original firmware at all, but rockbox works fine :) |
| 23:01:53 | Lalufu | ah well. |
| 23:02:32 | piggz | probably some hardware issue that rockbox doesnt care about, but the orginal firmware hangs on the apple logo |
| 23:02:33 | | Join mc2739 [0] (~mc2739@rockbox/developer/mc2739) |
| 23:03:31 | Lalufu | Hm. There are basically two ways for a device to communicate with an iPod using the 30-pin-connector. Serial, and USB. |
| 23:04:02 | Lalufu | Serial is ancient, available from the earliest models, and even the touch still does it. |
| 23:04:21 | Lalufu | rockbox supports serial as a transport mechanism. |
| 23:04:42 | Lalufu | the second one is USB. |
| 23:04:59 | Lalufu | this is only supported in newer models, it uses the same protocol, but a faster and more reliable transport. |
| 23:05:09 | Lalufu | rockbox does not support this (yet) |
| 23:05:19 | Lalufu | it might be that your device only does USB. |
| 23:06:43 | soap_ | Does the dock claim to work with older iPods? |
| 23:06:47 | saratoga | is it possible to log if a device tries to initiate a USB connection? seems like something our USB driver would probably notice |
| 23:06:55 | soap_ | If it doesn't I would take that a good clue it is uning USB transport. |
| 23:07:02 | piggz | http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4192583121.pdf |
| 23:07:14 | piggz | that is the manual, the spec in the back lists the compatible ipods |
| 23:07:41 | soap_ | saratoga, I'm guessing it /does/ notice as the symptom is his Rockbox going to USB disk mode, then back to normal upon insertion into the dock. |
| 23:08:16 | saratoga | ah then yes that does sound like its using USB |
| 23:08:18 | piggz | soap_: it stays in disk mode |
| 23:08:46 | soap_ | my bad. I thought it only went in briefly. |
| 23:09:31 | saratoga | piggz: that device only supports ipods with USB accessory support |
| 23:09:41 | saratoga | so its probably using USB rather then serial and we don't yet support that |
| 23:09:54 | piggz | ah ok...where did you see that in the manual? |
| 23:10:34 | saratoga | page 73, list of supported ipods |
| 23:11:19 | piggz | ah, i guess you deduce that from the list of ipods not listing old ones... |
| 23:11:32 | piggz | i look forward to rockbox someday supporting that feature then :) |
| 23:14:22 | Torne | saratoga: i don't think there is a *connection* to log.. isn't the USB protocol just spcial SCSI requests? |
| 23:14:29 | Torne | I think it happens *after* already mounting.. |
| 23:14:50 | Torne | we could still spot it if we knew what to look for |
| 23:15:25 | | Join saratogalab [0] (9803c348@gateway/web/freenode/ip.152.3.195.72) |
| 23:15:35 | saratogalab | no idea, i'm not a USB guy |
| 23:15:47 | saratogalab | but it seems like the USB driver must notice when weird commands show up |
| 23:15:57 | saratogalab | perhaps it could be programmed to logf them |
| 23:16:03 | Torne | well, i expect it does, but logf is off by deafult :) |
| 23:16:12 | ukleinek | MSC is special SCSI I think |
| 23:16:37 | Torne | ukleinek: no, the USB transport for IAP. not MSC. |
| 23:17:44 | | Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) |
| 23:17:56 | Lalufu | the USB transport works via HID |
| 23:18:31 | Torne | Oh, hm |
| 23:19:09 | saratogalab | if its just throwing HID commands at us that are equivalent to the serial commands we already handle, how much work is it to make the USB controller pass them to the IAP code? |
| 23:19:51 | Lalufu | the tricky part is to detect what the host expects from us. |
| 23:19:52 | Torne | assuming our HID driver is an acceptable endpoint for it to talk to in the first place, i imagine very little |
| 23:20:09 | Torne | but yeha, we may need to present our interfaces different for it to believe we are talkable-to in the first place |
| 23:20:36 | Lalufu | the OF has the same problem. |
| 23:20:53 | Lalufu | they solve this via an external resistor. |
| 23:21:02 | Torne | huh>? |
| 23:21:03 | Lalufu | built into the device somewhere. |
| 23:21:16 | Torne | i can't see why th accessory detect pin would be needed for that |
| 23:21:21 | Lalufu | the ipod measures the value of the resistor and decides what to to based on the value |
| 23:21:28 | Torne | but it doesn't need to decide.. |
| 23:21:30 | | Part lovasoa |
| 23:21:48 | Torne | what is it deciding between, here? |
| 23:21:57 | Lalufu | if the resistor is 191k (or somewhere in that region) the HID is offered as the primary USB config |
| 23:22:04 | ukleinek | isn't it easy for the device as the host sends a request and the device just reacton on whatever it sees? |
| 23:22:07 | Lalufu | otherwise, mass storage is the primary config |
| 23:22:24 | Torne | really? that's a horrendous design |
| 23:22:32 | Torne | usb supports multiple configurations for a reason.. |
| 23:23:02 | Torne | but anyway, if htat's how it works we can trivially do that |
| 23:23:16 | Torne | we already know how to read the adc for that pin |
| 23:23:23 | Lalufu | ah, fun! |
| 23:24:32 | Lalufu | I'm currently trying to talk to an OF iPod via HID, so far with astonishingly little success |
| 23:25:06 | Torne | do you have, say, a usb protocol analyser? :) |
| 23:25:11 | Torne | (because, er, we do) |
| 23:25:13 | saratogalab | won't that fail because you can't pass the encrypted handshake? |
| 23:25:14 | Torne | (somewhere) |
| 23:26:32 | Lalufu | Torne: all that stuff is actually documented, currently I blame my misfortune on my lack of understanding of how HID is supposed to work, and a lack of familiarity with libusb and libhod |
| 23:26:36 | Lalufu | libhid, even |
| 23:27:54 | Lalufu | saratogalab: if I could get the iPod to reject my attempt to do an authentication I'd be pleased. |
| 23:28:11 | | Join factor [0] (~factor@74.197.205.204) |
| 23:31:18 | Lalufu | apart from all that: getting input from USB into IAP should not be that hard. |
| 23:34:12 | tmzt | is IAP USB host or client on the iPod side? |
| 23:34:37 | Torne | client |
| 23:34:43 | Lalufu | the device is usually the host, no the ipod |
| 23:35:13 | tmzt | is that the case for the usb storage interface (camera connection kit) for iPad? |
| 23:35:31 | Torne | no, but that's not IAP |
| 23:35:32 | gevaerts | The camera connection kit isn't IAP as far as I know |
| 23:35:34 | Torne | that's just a MSC host |
| 23:36:22 | tmzt | okay, I know they were blocking other devices using that connection but that was probably based on usb indentifiers, not iap authentication chip |
| 23:36:34 | saratogalab | i saw some chinese sites have a protocol specification for ipads, but i didn't look into it |
| 23:36:50 | saratogalab | its probably using public key encryption like the ipods do |
| 23:42:39 | soap_ | Is there such a thing as an IAP authenticaion chip or just the same misinrofmed rumors as such as cropped up over the "headphone authentication chip" for the buttonless shuffle? |
| 23:44:09 | Lalufu | iAP defines authentication, in both directions. |
| 23:44:22 | Lalufu | the ipod can authenticate the device, and the device can authenticate the ipod |
| 23:44:50 | Lalufu | authentication is necessary for some commands. |
| 23:45:20 | Lalufu | most things interesting to rockbox work without authentication via serial, but almost any command is authenticated via USB. |
| 23:45:59 | | Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]) |
| 23:46:26 | saratogalab | soap_: there is a chip (and in fact a datasheet for it floating around), but its not used over the headphone jack |
| 23:46:32 | saratogalab | just IAP |
| 23:46:51 | soap_ | What does this authentication do? Prove the device maker payed the right people or??? |
| 23:47:07 | saratogalab | that and prove that the device is an ipod and not something else hacked to work with IAP |
| 23:47:18 | | Quit tjb0607 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:47:28 | saratogalab | although its unclear how well they've secured the second case |
| 23:47:35 | saratogalab | they're mostly just interested in getting paid i think |
| 23:48:32 | soap_ | Ok, is Apple is paranoid about clone devices being able to use accessories then why are any accessories sold (now) which don't require said authentication? And IF a majority are sold wanting such authentication what chance does Rockbox have of supporting such accessories ever? |
| 23:48:54 | soap_ | s/is/if/ |
| 23:49:09 | | Join tjb0607 [0] (~quassel@208-100-128-206.bendbroadband.com) |
| 23:49:44 | saratogalab | thats not entirely clear |
| 23:50:10 | saratogalab | they've definitely taken steps to ensure that authentication happens securely, but i have no idea what devices will actually implement it |
| 23:53:10 | Lalufu | the hope is that most devices just authenticate themselves to the ipod (and we can fake that), not the other way around. |
| 23:55:12 | soap_ | thanks for the knowledge |
| 23:56:23 | saratogalab | lets hope apple wasn't too concerned about people writing IAP apps for android |
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| 23:58:51 | | Join soap__ [0] (~soap@94.75.232.194) |
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