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#rockbox log for 2011-10-06

00:00:45gevaertsHave you considered ?
00:01:06othnielok found it
00:01:16othnielStill funny
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01:54:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:29:11prhalmenhi, anyone on here? :)
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02:30:35GeekShadownope everyone is crying for Jobs
02:30:46GeekShadowthe lion sleeps tonight
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02:32:07AlexPprhalmen: If you have a question, just go ahead
02:34:47prhalmenim looking all over the web to try and find a (working?) rio karma
02:35:10AlexPI'm not sure how that relates to Rockbox
02:35:16prhalmenafter a long search, i landed here... does anyone have, by any chance, a rio karma they might wanna sell?
02:35:17AlexPWe don't run on the Rio Karma
02:35:25prhalmeni got in over the rio karma rockbox port site
02:35:34AlexPNothing to do with us
02:35:40AlexPWhere are they?
02:35:52prhalmenand read on the forums how some bought karmas just for hacking, so i thought someone might wanna sell one of those
02:36:03prhalmensome say, the best mp3 player ever built
02:36:30krazykitprhalmen, yeah, i sold mine to lamdacalculus for that reason, but nothing happened with that, and i wouldn't expect anything to
02:36:35prhalmendidnt mean to offend anyone, just wanted to ask, thought i might get lucky
02:36:50AlexPprhalmen: No offence, I just don't think you'll have much luck
02:37:03AlexPWe don't run on it, nor have any real attempts been made to
02:37:18AlexPSo I wouldn't expect to find any here really :)
02:37:27prhalmenyeah, ok. thanks anyway
02:37:40AlexPno worries :)
02:38:11prhalmenoh, and @geekshadow didnt mean to disturb the mourning. rip steve o/
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03:54:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:32:44 Quit fiesh (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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04:43:34othnielCan someone with recording experience with Rockbox tell me the range of mp3 recording so I can document it in the WIKI
04:44:11othnielAlso for .wav .AIFF and .WV
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04:47:15tbruff13hey i put a video on my ipod nano 2gen and it is not showing up in rockbox i made sure to convert it to the rockbox format using winff it still did not show up
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04:47:47[Saint]What's your "show files" set to?
04:48:16tbruff13how can i tell that
04:49:03[Saint]Searching the manual for "show files". :) I don't have a dap near me.
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04:50:20tbruff13Saint i set show files to all but now the video wont play help
04:50:23[Saint]Settings - general settings - file view - show files.
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04:50:28tbruff13that is done
04:50:32tbruff13it wont play
04:51:09[Saint]What type of video format is this?
04:51:18[Saint]How was it converted?
04:52:03tbruff13it is mpg
04:52:20tbruff13i went to winff and used the preset rockbox ipod nano fullscreen
04:53:55[Saint]It should work, then. Provided your build is current, File a bug on flyspray, attatch the file, or a file, showing the error if possible.
04:54:56tbruff13ok im checking in the automated install if i missed installing the plugin
04:55:12[Saint]I'm in no position to test this presently, sorry. My nano2g builds are holds as the hills, and video works fine.
04:55:33[Saint]tbruff13: it's not an option to install.
04:55:38[Saint]Its always there.
04:56:05[Saint]You would have needed to explicitly remove it. I'm quite sure you didn't :)
04:56:09tbruff13Saint well then please help
04:56:14tbruff13it just wont play
04:56:41tbruff13let me try encoding to a new winff preset
04:57:13tbruff13it wont make a difference
04:57:19tbruff13well crap
04:57:21[Saint]That's all the help I can offer, file a bug report, or don't.
04:57:35tbruff13Saint how do i file a bug report
04:57:36[Saint]It'd be good if you did, though.
04:58:10[Saint]Flyspray is linked from the main page.
04:58:23[Saint]You'll need to make an account.
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04:59:15tbruff13ok im make a bug report but all i can say is the video wont play there is no error log as far as i can see the plugin wont start
05:00:29[Saint]...and give the details asked for regarding build version, etc.
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05:18:34tbruff13Saint i posted a bug report how long until someone reponds
05:21:46[Saint]That's impossible to say.
05:22:01tbruff13Saint i cant see my bug report in the list
05:22:54[Saint]I can...
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05:23:36tbruff13found it but i could not give much as far as errors it just did not start should i try an older version of rockbox
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05:26:12tbruff13Saint i changed the name of the file so the video did not play
05:26:20tbruff13i did not put .mpg after it
05:26:34tbruff13i gave them an oops note in the bug my fault
05:26:45[Saint]*facepalm* :)
05:27:08[Saint]I assumed you'd checked it played elsewhere :)
05:28:54tbruff13it did
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07:54:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:54:53JdGordonhow the heck was buflib allowed to go in without proper unit testing off target?
08:54:59 Join ender` [0] (
08:56:33Zagordid we ever unit test *anything*?
08:56:50JdGordonhardly an argument against starting :)
09:04:46kugelJdGordon: by *noone* replying to my several mails to the ml
09:05:34JdGordonI said *unit* testing....
09:06:00kugelI read that
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09:07:21kugelI mean noone asked for it, or even reviewed (at least not so that I knew about it)
09:07:50JdGordonfor a system that important it should have been obvious it was needed
09:09:06kugelI've had unit tests in kugel-/buflib"> since the beginning
09:10:43KiwiCamPlease. When it says "viewport relative", how does that relate to a progress bar that I want to go vertically instead of horizontally? I presume that this is to do with where the x & y co-ordinates start relative to the viewport. Could someone please clarify?
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09:39:33JdGordonKiwiCam: viewport relative means 0,0 is the top left pixel of the viewport
09:39:53JdGordon5,5 would put it at 15,15 if the viewport itself is at 10,10
09:41:02 Join rasferret [0] (
09:41:12JdGordonI got a "fun" raaa bug on my phone on the way homr from work today... its refusing to play the next song in the playlist
09:41:22JdGordoni start a new playlist, it plays the first one then just does nothing
09:41:45JdGordonpressing skip next causes it to crash!
09:42:02 Quit rasferret (Client Quit)
09:43:11JdGordonhmm, adb logs suggest its an audio hardware bug
09:47:05kugelmeh, the log viewer bug (about nicks in urls) is annoying
09:54:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:56:31KiwiCamI believe I've got it now. Thanks. So, this gives me a PB Bar Tag with a bit map (5 pixels across and 1 high) that rises from bottom to top, and I didn't need to specify "vertical". In what situations would I use the Horizontal and Vertical options in a Bar Tag? Why didn't I need it here?
09:56:42Zagorkugel: it's in svn :-)
09:57:45kugelZagor: I know, mc2739 attempted to fix it but didn't succeed
10:05:00 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
10:05:23KiwiCamOops. I better show some code: %xl(Z,levels.bmp,0,0) %Vl(a,0,0,5,-,-) %pb(0,0,5,20,-,slider,Z,nofill,nobar)
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11:47:42JdGordonclipv1 booting with svn again :)
11:47:54JdGordonwell, not quite svn, but bug fixes only
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11:50:08JdGordonkugel: can you *please* change the buflib debug screen to use multi lines for each item? and add some meaning to the numbers....
11:50:48JdGordondoes anyone have a target that doesnt boot with svn?
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11:54:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:56:02kugelJdGordon: the numbers have a meaning. it's the total size of the alloc (in n*sizeof(union buflib_data))
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11:56:59kugelincluding metadata
11:57:07wodzJdGordon: hw targets are said to not boot
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11:58:03JdGordonI dont have a hwcodec target handy
11:58:14JdGordonamiconn: pixelma: test a bugfix patch?
11:58:33KiwiCamI've sussed it now.
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11:59:15JdGordonerr, the talk about debug symbols before... we dont build with any at all? I thught they just get stripped from the elf?
12:00:15Torneyou are confusing debug information with symbols
12:00:29Tornewe build with symbols because you can't *not* build with symbols and still link anything
12:00:40Torne(but they are discarded when you objcopy, no need to explicitly strip)
12:00:46Tornewe don't build with any debug info
12:01:05Tornei think we should, but haven't gotten around to timing how much longer it makes the build
12:01:11JdGordonshort answer is a cant to an objdump intermixed with the c code
12:01:11Torneprobably negligible, but hey
12:01:21Torneno, you can't
12:01:26Torneadd -g to the build flags
12:01:27Tornethen it will work
12:01:48Tornealso time how long it takes and if it's negligible, please commit the change :p
12:02:08JdGordonthe build flags in which makefile?
12:03:11Tornepossibly in configure?
12:03:12Tornei'm not sure :)
12:03:19Tornei don't really know how our build thingy works.
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12:05:46JdGordonadding it to the Makefile in the buildd dir didnt seem to work
12:05:56JdGordonor it got stripped elsewhere
12:07:00gevaertsJdGordon: did you use the right objdump options?
12:07:16JdGordonwhich are the right ones? :)
12:07:23wodzI hacked root.make to build with -g IIRC
12:07:47TorneJdGordon: do you have a bunch of .debug_* sections
12:07:49Torneif so you did it right
12:07:56Torne(and thus your objdump must be wrong) :)
12:08:01Torneotherwise, no
12:08:24JdGordonyeah, lots
12:08:41JdGordonerr.. of 0 size
12:08:51KiwiCamHas anyone ported the Simulator or Theme Editor across to the Android phone? If not, is this being worked on, or considered?
12:08:58JdGordonoh no, readint he wrong column
12:09:25wodzKiwiCam: simulator on android? what for?
12:10:03wodzKiwiCam: rockbox on android can be observed as a special kind of rockbox simulator
12:10:04gevaertsJdGordon: I know I recently used -dS for it. Did you add -g to the link flags too?
12:11:45JdGordonah no
12:12:30JdGordonstill nothing, LDOPTS and GLOBAL_LDOPTS >
12:14:26KiwiCamwodz: But can it emulate the Clip? That's what I'm wanting a Sim for.
12:14:31gevaertsJdGordon: I apparently added -g to GCCOPTS only (in Makefile)
12:14:42Torneit should be sufficient to just add it to gcc
12:14:44Tornethe linker doesn't care
12:15:11JdGordongevaerts: thats what I did first, doesnt matter, ill figure this out the slow way with lcd_puts :p
12:15:21JdGordonnot entirely sure what the objdump would tell me anywway
12:15:53JdGordondata abort is unaligned access no?
12:15:58gevaertsJdGordon: which file are you running objdump on?
12:16:29wodzkugel: About your comment about backtrace - you can call it basically from anywhere. Current implementation takes one argument (PC) to start interpretation from and assumes that the stack to be inspected is svc stack. The letter can be easily extended.
12:16:34JdGordonfont.o is the same
12:16:56gevaertsok. I just did a clip build with -g added to GCCOPTS, and arm-elf-eabi-objdump -dS rockbox.elf does show me the source
12:17:12KiwiCamwodz: Sometimes I find myself sitting somewhere with idle time. I'd love to be able to just start theming for my clip using the Android.
12:17:13*JdGordon disables ccache
12:17:19kugelwodz: so, is it implemented for panicf() calls?
12:17:23wodzJdGordon: it can also be data access outside of address space supported by SoC
12:17:38wodzkugel: it this patch? no
12:18:02Tornewodz: do we actually have any SoCs that bother to signal external aborts but don't have a FSR? :)
12:18:09kugelwodz: can you do that? :)
12:18:53gevaertsJdGordon: data abort usually is unaligned access, yes. I believe it can be other things too, but I've never seen them. The source helps with finding which line is wrong more precisely without having to understand asm :)
12:19:13JdGordongevaerts: /me feels stupid
12:19:13kugelI don't suppose it can be used on app targets (read: RaaAoA) in signal handlers like for SIGSEGV?
12:19:39Tornekugel: should be, but android tombstones are probably more useful
12:19:47JdGordonapparently you cant use s and S together
12:19:48wodzTorne: On rk27xx for example gating clock signal to dma module produce data aborts when accessing dma registers
12:20:02Tornewodz: what ARM is that?
12:20:20Tornedoes it implement cp15?
12:20:25gevaertsJdGordon: that does make some sort of sense in hindsight :)
12:20:34wodzI believe no
12:20:55Tornewodz: okay, well that might be one then.
12:21:08Tornewodz: but pretty much all our existing arm7 targets don't actually generate external aborts to my knowledge
12:21:19Tornethey just return nonsense or mirrored data :)
12:21:37gevaertsWhich is *useful*!
12:21:43JdGordonWHAT THE fucking fuck?
12:21:59Tornegevaerts: well, kinda.
12:22:24Tornegevaerts: it is useful sometimes if MSBs that decode to a functional unit that doesn't exist or has its clock disabled aborts :)
12:22:50Tornebut it's sometimes useful when things are mirrored within their address range
12:24:59Tornewodz: are you going to try and change to running in system mode btw?
12:25:09Tornei don't think anyone will object
12:25:14Tornebut it might be worth, er, telling people
12:25:25Tornesince it's relevant when debugging :p
12:25:27wodzTorne: yes, I am going to post patch on FS
12:25:50Tornegood stuff
12:26:03Tornethen we can come up with a use for SWI :)
12:26:11wodzthere are 16 Crt0*.S files in /firmware/target/arm
12:26:36wodzI am wondering what to do with the ones used exclusively in bootloaders
12:26:44Tornechange them as well
12:26:50Tornethere really is no reason not to
12:27:12Tornethe fact that ARMs boot into svc is just a legacy of ARMs that had less modes
12:27:58wodzwhat to do with freed svc? what sp assign to this?
12:28:40TorneUIE, presumably
12:28:45TorneThat's what we already do on swi, no?
12:28:59TorneOh, actually no
12:29:03Tornewe appear to just return
12:29:09Torne..we shold UIE :)
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12:29:41Torneanyway, it can use the irq stack the same as abort and undef, no?
12:29:54Torneif all uses are fatal then it doens't matter what stack you use as long as it's valid
12:30:15wodzindeed we just return
12:30:44TorneWe shouldn't do that
12:31:02Tornesince that means that calling swi just corrupts r14 for you and then continues
12:31:13Tornenot particularly nice behaviour
12:31:23wodzand here we come to the point - for now it doesn't matter what sp it uses but when we start to exploit swi we should have separate stack
12:31:27Tornei guess if we run in sys then it won't corrupt r14 any more.
12:31:35TorneWell, yes
12:31:41TorneIf we're goingt o use it for anything it needs its own stack
12:31:53Tornesince you'll probably want to be able to take irqs
12:32:10TorneYou could allocate a third stack and use it for svc/abt/und
12:32:20Tornesince those should hopefully be exclusive :)
12:32:23wodzI am wrapping my head around gdb arm-stub now which could potentially use swi for single stepping
12:33:46Torneanyway, for now it's sufficient to just use the irq stack i think.
12:34:16wodzI'll try to craft patch later today
12:34:52Torneall exceptions disable IRQs so there is no risk of stack corruptoin
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12:38:42Tornewell, er
12:38:50Torneexcept in that it will overwrite the irq stack :)
12:38:52JdGordonpop quiz... what the hell is causing font_unload() to be called on shutdown?
12:39:06JdGordon*other than font_unload_all()*!
12:39:22TorneWhat you need is a stack unwinder! :p
12:39:28Torneor a gdb stub :p
12:39:50Tornetime to suck up to wods!
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12:40:04JdGordonis fs#12302 working enough?
12:40:05fs-bluebot Add backtrace to the panic screen on ARM (patches, new)
12:40:35wodzJdGordon: it should give you backtrace on data abort (or not at all if unwidnign fails)
12:40:52 Quit evilnick (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
12:42:32JdGordonbuilding with it now... fingers crossed it helps :)
12:42:48JdGordonboo! doesnt build for the clip
12:43:08pamauryI'm looking at the audio cap of the imx233 and I need some help because I'm not an audio expert. What does CLIPPING_CAP stands for ? It seems to have to do with the volume but I don't understand the link. And how is balance defined ?
12:43:30pamauryalso what PRESCALER_CAP is supposed to stand for ?
12:43:54wodzpamaury: are you going to unmute f+?
12:44:16pamaurytry to at least ;)
12:44:19wodzJdGordon: what is the error?
12:44:31JdGordonthe lcd functions arent there for mono dislays
12:44:44JdGordonand i dont tinhk it will work too well on the tiny screen :)
12:44:59JdGordonno backtrace :(
12:45:38wodzthere is little I can do about this you know :/
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12:48:51JdGordonis clean_shutdown() called by more than just the main thread of shutdown?
12:49:01JdGordonno, that doesnt make sense either...
12:49:09JdGordonsomething is bloody calling font_unload
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13:06:54wodzJdGordon: how is it possible for clip to not implement lcd_putsf()?
13:07:17JdGordonit dosnt have the colour functions
13:09:19wodzwhat colour? Isn't it simply printing formated string to lcd?
13:10:02 Quit Jerom (Quit: Leaving.)
13:10:11wodzanyway clip uses very the same UIE as other arms and I don't use any extra lcd function in backtrace()
13:12:10wodzit's not needed comment it out :-)
13:12:58JdGordonway ahead of you :p
13:12:58JdGordongoddamit... who the hell knows how the lru use
13:13:04JdGordonlru works
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13:21:38kugelpamaury: arent these capabilities? some targets can do dsp stuff in hardware so we dont use use sw implementations
13:24:02[Saint]Ahhh the hilarity, "I don't know what you're doing qrong, but its something" :)
13:24:19JdGordonsize_t is unsigned... so new - current isnt ging to work very well if the handle moves backwards :/
13:25:04kugelthat's not the problem, but ptrdiff_t might be better
13:26:07pamauryyes, my question is about what these cap mean
13:26:57kugelI guess the first is that the hw can detect clipping and fix stuff appropriately and the latter means some sort of gain applied
13:27:20kugelyou don't need to defined them just yet if you're unsure
13:30:02JdGordon*might* be better? size_t is completly wrong
13:30:10JdGordonbut no, that doesnt solve the crash :/
13:37:09JdGordonok, WHAT THE FUCK? apparently the _index field is moves *twice*
13:37:25JdGordonis gcc screwing up aliasing or something?
13:37:39JdGordonfont.buffer_start == font._index
13:38:33kugelbtw, the crash I mentioned on the font ask is opened as FS #12317
13:38:34fs-bluebot Data abort when triggering buflib compaction using the debug menu (bugs, unconfirmed)
13:45:14JdGordonfont.cache._index is never written to after being initially set (and in the move callback), but somehow when the crash happens it appears to have the wrong bloody value
13:45:22JdGordonwhich happens to be 2*diff
13:49:43kugelI looked into the crash shortly, and the font structure is fine until shortly before the segfault
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13:50:01kugelit's fine throughout the buflib operation
13:51:12kugelin the backtrace on my system it would corrupt somewhere at printing the third line of the debug menu
13:52:16JdGordonfucking hell
13:52:21JdGordon_short is a short* not a void*
13:52:24JdGordonor char*
13:52:36JdGordonso diff is doing pointer arithmatic and mismoving it
13:53:09 Quit Thra11_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
13:53:36JdGordonOK, you really need to add a macro so this doesnt happen again
13:54:12 Quit Stummi (Client Quit)
13:54:20JdGordon#define FIX_PTR(p, diff) if (p) { (void*)p +=diff; }
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13:55:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:56:00kugelhm, I remember that I looked out for this kind of issue but didn't see non-char*/void* pointers
13:56:06kugelmust have been blind
13:57:48JdGordonthat void* cast isnt working thugh
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14:01:27JdGordonif (alloc->font.cache._index)
14:01:27JdGordon {
14:01:27JdGordon void** foo = (void**)&alloc->font.cache._index;
14:01:27DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon
14:01:27JdGordon *foo += diff;
14:01:27JdGordon }
14:01:30JdGordonlovely :p
14:01:49kugelwhy that construct?
14:03:15JdGordonbecuase gcc barfed with just putting (void*) at the front
14:03:25kugelright. you can't cast the lhs, but you can do p = (void*)p + diff
14:03:43JdGordonor that
14:03:56JdGordonshould be macro-ised
14:12:15kugelJdGordon: does that fix the crash?
14:12:29CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
14:12:29*JdGordon screems at powermngnt.c
14:14:12kugel[Saint]: ping
14:14:23 Quit keyb_gr (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
14:15:45JdGordoncommit and close all the font bugs
14:15:53JdGordonand clip not booting
14:16:17kugelat work currenty, will have a look later today
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14:20:53pamauryJdGordon: you found the bug(s) ? What was the problem ?
14:21:10wodzpamaury: pointer arithmetics :-)
14:21:41JdGordonwell that was a bug, but not the fatal boot one
14:22:05JdGordonnot entirely sure what that was, that paste fixes about 3 or 4 different issues, it could have been any of them
14:22:12JdGordonmy clip is working fine again though
14:22:16JdGordonso someone commit it
14:22:35JdGordonor fs#12299 (the patch in the last of my comments)
14:22:36fs-bluebot Font Glyph cache is no longer getting saved (bugs, new)
14:22:45pamauryyes I read about the pointer arithmetics one, a nasty bug :) It's nice to see it fixed. Perhaps we should wait a bit for other people with a clip to test it and commit
14:22:59 Quit dfkt (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
14:23:03JdGordonthats what svn is for
14:23:15JdGordonwaiting for testers really is an excerisze in futility
14:24:42wodzconsidering the type of a bug I don't think it is needed to test extensively
14:24:57wodzwe will need to fix this anyway
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14:26:26pamauryJdGordon: (just looking at the patch) is buf still necessary since you use the global setting now ?
14:27:12JdGordonin settings.c? yes
14:27:24kugelwhat is the lock in lcd-bitmap-common.c for?
14:27:50JdGordonfont access of the scroll thread
14:28:13JdGordonfreddyb's catch
14:28:18kugelyou dont need to lock there
14:28:24kugelit's not yielding
14:28:46pamaurysometimes I think we should have a macro for things like p = (void *)p + delta; this is so common...
14:28:50kugeland you don't use the pointer except for getting the height
14:29:07JdGordonthen the lock doesnt do anything other than a function call....
14:29:12JdGordonremove it if oyu want
14:29:21kugelit's your patch
14:30:24kugelthat makes the entire changes to the locking uneeded
14:30:37kugelI would welcome if you would update the patch accordingly
14:32:19kugelalso the code duplication is still there (font_shrinkfilename())
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14:33:48JdGordon take it or leave it. I only fixed these because i felt slightly guilty. im officialy done
14:35:13kugelwodz: ping
14:36:04kugelwodz: you didn't answer my question. can you add the backtrace to stock pancif()?
14:36:39wodzit shouldn't be a problem
14:36:47kugeland what do you thibnk of the idea to compile it as lib? did you need to make many changes?
14:37:05wodzdunno - never compiled code as lib
14:37:14kugelwodz: I mean, can you add this to the patch? :)
14:37:21kugel(not whether it's possible or not)
14:37:38wodzI am at work
14:38:26wodzcompiling as lib can have one benefit - it should be possible to compile this code with -Os -mthumb and squize it to 3kB or so
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14:57:13wodzWhat instructions modifying PC on arm are actually used? mov, add, sub, ldr, ldrm, b, bl, bx, blx, blj - anything else?
14:58:22 Quit semitones_ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
14:58:49kugelwodz: how does the backtrace deal with thumb or even interworking?
14:59:45wodzkugel: it should handle it correctly
15:01:21[Saint]kugel: yo?
15:01:33 Join semitones_ [0] (
15:02:16kugel[Saint]: you didn't update the theme since a while :(
15:02:59[Saint]Computer issues.
15:03:01 Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:03:13[Saint]And health/time issues.
15:03:16 Quit factor (Quit: Leaving)
15:03:20kugeloh :(
15:04:05[Saint]I have some updates ill up on flyspray later tonight, though.
15:05:25 Join antil33t [0] (
15:05:35kugel[Saint]: I wonder if we should have some forum thread about it, to get more people involved
15:06:28kugelZagor: ping
15:07:04[Saint]There was a "hey, look at this/test this" thread but I closed it when I put it up on flyspray.
15:07:30[Saint]I was actually thinking about mentioning it in the general section again.
15:07:31kugelI'm more thinking about a "lets collaborate on this" type of thread
15:07:52kugelalthough rockbox is probably not widely used enough on the targets in question
15:08:19[Saint]Ah, right. Sure. Ill have a play with a new thread if I get time tonight.
15:08:38[Saint]I'd like to get new people onboard to port their own targets :)
15:09:12[Saint]All the <insert weird resolution here> devices ;)
15:09:57kugelIMO we should concentrate on few resolutions, to get the design done
15:10:32kugelyour theme is good, but there's still a lot room for improvement and some things are questionable/debatable
15:12:03kugelI think getting more people working on it can get it leaps forward
15:13:48 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
15:17:15[Saint]Problem is users with theme syntax knowledge ...there aren't any :)
15:17:54kugelwell, that's not a requirement
15:18:28kugelcoding can be done by any one when the design is done
15:18:54[Saint]Well, no...I'm happy to code up ideas (that are possible) provided its agreeable changes.
15:19:04kugelthe design isn't yet done, and that can be described/discussed with sketches and photoshop
15:19:24[Saint]So theme syntax knowledge isn't essential, but it'd sure help :)
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15:23:22Zagorkugel: pong
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15:30:00kugel[Saint]: IMO GodEater made a damn good point when he said "this is what's wrong with this project
15:30:03kugelwhen cabbiev2 was developed there were a LOT of people working on it"
15:30:15 Quit guymann (Quit: fuck internets)
15:30:19kugelZagor: did you look into the zip dependency problem?
15:30:35Zagorremind me please?
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15:31:11kugel"$ make zip" -> "nothing to be done for 'zip'"
15:32:44Zagorfor android? when what is changed?
15:32:57ZagorI just ran make zip in my android build dir and it builds fine
15:33:25kugelright, but once is there it's always considered done
15:33:43Zagorno. I had a zip now.
15:34:28[Saint_]kugel: Forgive me...but you make it sound as though the lack of people working on it is my fault...?
15:34:44[Saint_]I've never shut anyone out...and never had a *single* offer.
15:35:17Zagorkugel: "rm apps/main.o && make zip" builds me a zip every time.
15:35:29[Saint_]You should know being a developer youself, people (in general) don't give when they can just take.
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15:36:18[Saint_]My problem was waiting until I had usable ports to post my work, people didn't need to do anything. they had a solution ;)
15:36:20kugel[Saint]: no, I didn't mean to say that
15:36:49[Saint_]I should have put them up when they were all half finished instead ;)
15:37:47kugelZagor: hm, it's only with NODEPS=1. I was pretty sure it also happened without
15:38:40kugeleither way, NODEPS=1 was meant to restore the old behavior (apk to not depend on zip), that's not what's happening here
15:39:15kugel[Saint]: as I said, coding neednt to happen at all before collaborating on a theme
15:40:30kugel13:36 < [Saint_]> I should have put them up when they were all half finished instead ;)
15:41:58kugelwhen cabbiev2 was made, lots of random people kept posting photshop mockups until (after some couple hundreds of posts) the end result was there
15:43:02kugel[Saint_]: I'm not saying it's your fault, it's our fault as we didn't make use of our expierience with this topic
15:43:26kugelsorry if I sounded like that
15:44:53[Saint_]It is partly my fault...I did deliberately restrict discussions to IRC to filter out the "You should add this, that, and several other fantasy things..." from users.
15:45:16[Saint_]It was very deleiberate of my to get things to the point they are now with almost nothing but developer input.
15:45:25[Saint_]*of my/of me/
15:46:57[Saint_]I didn't feel the look really needed any discussion, I wanted it to look as much like "vanilla" cabbiev2 as possible.
15:47:10[Saint_]I _think_ nI achieved that.
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15:58:49Zagorwill I be chased with a pitchfork if I say I don't want cabbe as default theme on android? :)
16:01:42AlexPNot by me :)
16:01:58AlexPI have nothing against Cabbie, but it just doesn't feel quite right on touchscreen
16:02:05Zagorso you'll join me running, then?
16:02:10kugelZagor: no, I don't know cabbe personally :)
16:02:12AlexPEven [Saint_] is doing excellent work on it
16:02:26AlexPZagor: Yeah, although I sense this is a cunning plan of yours
16:02:34AlexPZagor: Now you only need to run faster than me
16:02:48kugelI think cabbie can be made a nice fit for touchscreens
16:03:12kugelZagor: what do you think is wrong with cabbie?
16:03:28AlexPI'm not totally down on it, and [Saint_]'s work is a lot better for sure
16:03:58[Saint_]"even [Saint_] "? ;)
16:03:59Zagorit's hard to put into words. it's too... round ... yellow and ... cartoonish I think.
16:04:11[Saint_]that implies (to me) I shouldn't be ;)
16:04:39[Saint_]Zagor: I got crucified for implying that RaaA should have a theme other than cabbie.
16:04:44ZagorI would like a cooler (as in temperature) theme more focused on elegance and simplicity
16:04:57[Saint_]and told in no uncertain terms it'd never be comitted
16:05:10AlexP[Saint_]: Sorry, there is a "though" missing from that sentence :)
16:05:20[Saint_]basically "its cabbie, or your work is irrelevant"
16:05:33[Saint_]was what I was told.
16:05:34Zagor[Saint_]: wow, that's harsh
16:05:37AlexPZagor: Yes, I think I tend to agree
16:05:38kugelZagor: I found the current cabbie standing for elegance and simplicity already
16:05:53[Saint_]I do too, personally.
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16:06:01[Saint_]its grown on me since I've workied on it.
16:06:13[Saint_]its also "the face of Rockbox"
16:06:15kugelgold and grey colors are not cartoonish in my book
16:06:25[Saint_]I don't think we can change it without changing *all* default themes.
16:06:37[Saint_]...which is a huge task.
16:06:52Zagor[Saint_]: I disagree. the look of rockbox on android has very little to do with the look of rockbox on other targets
16:07:17[Saint_]I wish I'd been told that before I started ;)
16:08:02Zagorthe android app is different on so many levels. in all other cases, we are the masters of the device. replacing "OF crap" with our superior software.
16:08:06[Saint_]I basically got "Don't break the mold, or the theme your working on will be your own, and never the default"
16:08:17Zagoron android, we are guests.
16:08:22[Saint_]so I went for "classic cabbiev2"
16:08:26kugelZagor: I tend to disagree. the uniform look is one of rockbox' strength, and I see no apparent reason to do things differently on android
16:08:43[Saint_]I agree there too. Actually.
16:08:57[Saint_]this is spooky, I'm agreeing with kugel far too much tonight ;D
16:09:01Zagorit's only a strength for die-hard rockbox fans. 95% (at least) of android users will have never seen rockbox before
16:09:25ZagorI am not aiming for the converts. I'm aiming at the people who don't have a clue who we are.
16:09:29AlexPI think my main problem is not actually so much the theme (or WPS rather), it is mainly the lists etc.
16:09:37[Saint_]But, when they then discover Rockbox on <other platform> itll have a uniform look.
16:09:56AlexPI don't see anyone really going Android −−> DAP
16:10:10AlexPIf people are using their phones for music, they aren't going to go the other way
16:10:11[Saint_]I think RaaA can help bring users to other Rockbox targets, when its "out"
16:10:16kugelI totally agree we have usability problems, but the design of cabbie (general looks, colors) is fine
16:10:26kugelRaaA or not
16:10:46Zagoryeah, this is an opinion thing. we can discuss until we're blue and never agree. I just figured I should mention it :-)
16:10:51[Saint_]AlexP: they may not know its a viable alternative.
16:10:56[Saint_]...just a suggestion.
16:11:05[Saint_]they may have never heard of Rockbox before.
16:11:17[Saint_]And choose to dig out the old DAP
16:11:27AlexPI think the number of people that chose to do that will be miniscule
16:11:30AlexPBut anyway
16:11:49AlexPI don't think we should worry about the design too much for now, the usability issues are much more important
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16:12:04Zagorto me, that type of thinking is leaning towards "rockbox dap emulator on android"
16:12:09kugelfwiw, ABI's review of some android-powert dap mentioned rockbox often and only in good ways
16:12:17Zagorthis is an android app, not "rockbox on android".
16:12:49Zagorwe have to be more attractive than all the other players on the market
16:13:10kugelZagor: yes, that's probably what you see when you are long into rockbox. I dont think newcomers will see it this way
16:13:57Zagorkugel: you think newcomers will be happy that their app looks like an iphone firmware they have never seen?
16:14:17ZagorI don't quite understand what you mean
16:14:38kugelIMO our wps looks better than the stock music app's one
16:15:23*[Saint_] thinks this too
16:15:28kugelZagor: I don't think they will see it as a "hostile firmware"
16:15:35[Saint_]I cant really comment, though.
16:15:44[Saint_]its "my baby", and I'm biased, blatantly.
16:15:46kugelI think what you mean cannot be undone without native widgets anyway
16:16:08Zagorof course it can
16:16:10pamauryI *might* shock some people here but the WPS screen is the one I use the least of all
16:16:39[Saint_]thats 'cos your player has no audio output! :P
16:17:06pamauryI don't have an android phone but I think it's far more important to be able to quickly find the music you want to play; then you don't look at the screen :)
16:18:08pamauryThe same thing for settings and so: you *don't* want to fight with the UI
16:18:16[Saint_]if FFWD/REW were enabled for the .sbs (who's our new maintainer, btw?) then we wouldn't *need* the WPS on Android ;)
16:18:28[Saint_]I like being able to control playback from all listys.
16:18:38[Saint_]Only FFWD/REW is missing.
16:18:47Zagor[Saint_]: yeah that's a very nice touch
16:19:12[Saint_]AFAIK, we're the only app doing that, so far.
16:20:12[Saint_]AA doesn't seem to work in CM, but...that's a very "don't really have to worry about it" issue.
16:20:21[Saint_]It'd be nice if it did though
16:20:26*[Saint_] looks at kugel ;)
16:20:53[Saint_]WHoops. *AA doesnt seem to work in the lockscreen, in CM
16:21:14[Saint_]playback control works, but there's no album art.
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16:22:56kugel[Saint_]: AA in the lockscreen uses some internal API. does any other app work with ti?
16:23:23kugelwhen I looked at it it needs the app to use the standard database (or at least the playing song to be in it)
16:24:10[Saint_]Ah, right. Google Music beta, Google Music, and CM's Music app have AA in the lockscreen.
16:24:38[Saint_]I guess it figures we can't use it, then...bugger.
16:25:33kugelhm interesting that they work
16:25:48kugelthe setting even says it only works with the builtin app
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16:26:25ZagorI suppose it works with any app that plays music using the standard system service
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16:29:28othnielI have a correction to the sansa e280v1 manual. My rockbox player allows me 3 settings: 24k, 22.05, & 16 whereas the manual says only the middle one is permitted. Do I have access to make this change myself?
16:29:47Torneupload a patch to flyspray
16:29:53othnielSection 10.2
16:30:01othniel10.3 I mean
16:30:53othnielI checked the recording and it truly is 16KHz sampling.
16:31:25Torneyou mean, when you select 16? or always?
16:31:38othnielI changed WiKI stuff but dont know how to do flyspray.
16:31:53othnielI set that as preference on recording settings
16:31:58othnielDidnt check 24
16:32:12othnielbut I'm guessing they added 24 and 16 kHz
16:32:23othnielto the 22.05 that was there originally.
16:33:59Lloreanothniel: You can just go to flypsray and open a bug report that mentions that information, if you can't figure out how to make a patch against the manual to post there.
16:48:50othnielHow do I make a patch against the e200v1 manual?
16:49:00othnielI'm in Flyspray now.
16:49:31krazykityou change the source markup in the manual, make a diff, and upload that
16:49:40LloreanPretty much the same way you'd make any patch
16:50:25othnielNo checkout? or checkin? I thought this was SVN.
16:50:43LloreanYou check out the code, sure.
16:50:51LloreanYou don't check it in, you're not a committer. You post a patch.
16:51:09othnielok where are these instructions?
16:51:44LloreanOn the website, in the for developers section of the docs index, if memory serves.
16:53:48othnielIs all this necessary even for a change to the e200 manual?
16:54:44LloreanAs compared to what?
16:55:13LloreanThere are basically three steps. Write the text. Convert the text to a patch. Commit the patch. Step 3 must be done by a committer.
16:55:41LloreanStep 1 *or* step 2 can be the flyspray task.
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16:59:29othnielI want to document the fact that the sansa e200 target allows recording with a sample rate/frequency of 24, 22.05 and 16 kHz instead of the 22.05 only mentioned currently. So I registered for Flyspray −− I looked for that bug report. Nothing on this topic. So I would do it myself if it were easy.
17:00:22LloreanI'm confused.
17:00:35Tornethe manual is built from LaTeX source code, stored in the same repository as the Rockbox source
17:00:47LloreanAll you have to do is post a bug report against the e200v1 manual and say "The manual says this (text) but (text) is correct"
17:00:47TorneSo yes, you need to check out the source byf ollowing the developer instructions
17:00:52LloreanYou don't need to post a patch
17:00:53TorneYou don't need to actually built it
17:01:01LloreanA patch is just preferable since that means someone else doesn't have to make it to commit your change.
17:01:03TorneOr, yes, just report it as Llorean says.
17:03:27LloreanCan someone running a recentish current build with playlists on their device answer a question for me?
17:03:30LloreanI don't have a DAP handy
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17:05:51[Saint]Depends on the question :)
17:06:30LloreanJust click select on the playlist in the file browser (not the catalog). Does it execute the playlist, like it used to, or does that invoke "browsing" the playlist now?
17:06:37 Quit benedikt93 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:06:48LloreanI swear when the catalog changes were going in I was told repeatedly that selecting it in the browser would still simply invoke it, not browse it.
17:07:55[Saint]....fudge. no battery.
17:08:03LloreanAh well. Dug up my e200
17:08:04LloreanUpdating it
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17:08:31[Saint]I _think_ the browsing behaviour was intended.
17:08:38[Saint]From memory.
17:09:08[Saint]The catalogue launches, filebrowser browsed.
17:09:11TorneLlorean: can't you play it directly by hitting a different button, on targets with enough buttons?
17:09:18LloreanTorne: I don't know.
17:09:26Tornei believe targets with dedicated play buttons it plays it
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17:09:30Tornei don't have a device handy thouhg
17:09:45LloreanTorne: How would that work? "Play" is resume / return to the file browser on most of those
17:10:02LloreanAh well, e200 has that dedicated button, so I can test.
17:10:03*Torne isn't sure, doesn't use playlists.
17:10:23Torneanyway, i'm not sure that there is a problem with pressing select twice instead of once..
17:10:37LloreanTorne: It doesn't return you to the WPS any more
17:10:49LloreanAfter pressing select twice, you then need to press something else, or a combo on low-button players, to get back to it
17:11:12 Quit robin0800 (Quit: Leaving)
17:11:13LloreanBafflingly, instead of returning you to the WPS, it returns you to the file browser, with the playlist highlighted.
17:12:00TorneOkay, that sounds wrong
17:12:11[Saint]I guess this is why testing is better than arguing about implementation for weeks :)
17:12:13TorneI expect all actions that start something playing to take me to wps
17:12:39Llorean[Saint]: It's not a bug. That was part of the implementation description.
17:12:40Tornesince almost all the time, the action that starts soemthing playing will be the last thing i do
17:13:39[Saint]Llorean: but you've apparently found something wrong with it now?
17:13:39LloreanThis whole feature seems to make it harder to "just use" playlists, in favor of making it easier to do more complex things with it.
17:14:25[Saint]It favourable the catalogue for "just using" playlists, as it should, IMO.
17:14:25Llorean[Saint]: I'm not sure. I thought I was told file browser playlist use wouldn't change.
17:14:36LloreanIf it wasn't supposed to change, then there's a bug
17:14:46Lloreanif it was supposed to work in the same in the browser as the catalog, this isn't a bug
17:14:52LloreanI'm uncertain on that point.
17:15:03[Saint]I seem to recall the change being intentional.
17:15:04LloreanThe "not returning to the WPS" though isn't a bug, as far as I know, but rather how the catalog is supposed to work.
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17:16:53Llorean[Saint]: My understanding of the patch, as it was told to me, was that it changes how "Playlist Catalogue" works, but not how filetree accessed playlists work.
17:18:50[Saint]My understanding was that playlists launched through the catalogue, ans opened to view from the browser.
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17:20:24Llorean[Saint]: Why does that make any sense? The catalog is the only place you can insert songs into other playlists, etc.
17:20:31LloreanIt's the tool for editing them
17:20:46 Quit othniel (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
17:21:22[Saint]Can't you do it via the filebrowser context menu? !?
17:21:35LloreanDo what?
17:22:03LloreanI certainly can't play a playlist from it.
17:22:03[Saint]Add <track(s)> to a playlist.
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17:22:30LloreanYou can add tracks to a playlist *in the catalog* yes.
17:22:57LloreanI just want to be able to browse to a playlist and hit "select" to play it like we used to be able to. If I want to use the advanced catalog features, I'll put it *in* the catalog.
17:23:37CGEffexHello, I have a question about my mp3 player, and if a port could be made for it...
17:23:58LloreanCGEffex: Ports are pretty much made by people who own the player, and are interested in doing a lot of hard work.
17:24:23CGEffexOh...I'm not much of a coder...
17:24:53LloreanCGEffex: It takes a lot of interest for a port to happen. Typically, that means someone who owns the player and really wants that specific player to run Rockbox badly enough.
17:24:56Zagorwhat player is it?
17:25:04CGEffexYou see, before I got my walkman nwz-e344 one of the specs I really liked was it's ability to record off fm radio
17:25:26CGEffexCome time I get the player, it has the radio but no option to record!
17:25:30*[Saint] grumbles at JdGordon
17:25:57[Saint]I just cleared MT configuration, and created a new playlist ...where did it put it?
17:26:05[Saint]Exactly the dir a stated.
17:26:05CGEffexI've had it for a while now, but recently I've really been wishing I could somehow get the ability to record the radio off of it
17:26:52TorneCGEffex: it's possible the hardware can't actaully do that at all :) and no, there is no port for that
17:26:53CGEffexin [my eyes] and easy feature to add through rockbox would be the ability to record what comes off the radio...
17:27:15TorneIf you do a whole port for the device, and the hardware actually supports it, then recording the radio is trivial, yes :)
17:27:19CGEffexLike, you don't need a microphone to record your computers speaker output
17:27:24CGEffexyou can do it internally
17:27:26Tornebut expect to put dozens/hundreds of hours into porting rockbox first
17:27:33[Saint]Llorean: assuming you've not set it elsewhere ...where is your playlist catalogue dir?
17:27:39Torneand it is possible that the player can't do it anyway :)
17:27:54CGEffexAnd it's possible I'm not actually a coder anyway...
17:27:58[Saint]*/Playlists or /.rockbox/Playlists
17:28:05LloreanCGEffex: It actually depends. The radio audio may be wired directly through to the audio output, without passing through any part the software can pick up.
17:28:16Llorean[Saint]: Where do I check that?
17:28:45[Saint]Just check the filesystem.
17:28:59[Saint]See what exists.
17:29:16LloreanIf I try to save the dynamic playlist it wants to save in /Playlists
17:29:22LloreanAre you using RaaA or on-device?
17:29:36LloreanIt may be different there
17:29:46[Saint]I suspect that shouldn't differ.
17:29:55LloreanI just feel like I remember it being mentioned that it would be different there.
17:29:59TorneYou say that, but we need to remap paths on android
17:30:01LloreanI'm not sure why
17:30:03[Saint]I can't account for it, I cleared my. Cfg
17:30:04Tornebecause otherwise lots of things would try and access /
17:30:06Torneor /.rockbox
17:30:07Torneor similar
17:30:12Tornewhich are not writable
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17:30:32TorneI suspect that our filesystem code is doing something clever to remap stuff to be under /mnt/sdcard/.rockbox
17:30:42Torneand nobody thought to handle playlists as a special case
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17:31:54[Saint]Well, it wants to put things in /.rockbox/Playlists for me.
17:32:17LloreanI thought it was /Rockbox/ on RaaA
17:32:21[Saint](Which would actually be /rockbox/Playlists"
17:32:53 Quit petur (Quit: *plop*)
17:33:04[Saint]Llorean: it is, but configuration files still refer to .rockbox
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17:33:37[Saint]Which points to /mnt/sdcard/rockbox
17:33:50Tornewell, /sdcard/rockbox actually ;)
17:33:53 Quit hilbert (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
17:33:59Torneandroid's fs layout is full of hilarious symlinks
17:34:08LloreanI guess it'd be impolite to just clutter the root of the sdcard on a multiuse device with folders like "Playlists"
17:34:33TorneI don't think that's really true
17:34:39[Saint]Why? Lots of other apps do it, even Google.
17:34:43TorneAndroid itself has a bunch of root directories on there, like Music, Pictures, etc
17:34:48TornePlaylists seems perfectly reasonable
17:34:48LloreanTorne: Yeah
17:34:55Torneit contains standard playlist files in a stnadard format
17:34:59Tornewhich other apps could use perfectly fine
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17:35:06LloreanI guess that's true for Playlists, actually
17:35:23[Saint]Listen drops a dir in /sdcard
17:35:38*Llorean doesn't know what Listen is.
17:35:39[Saint]Qhen it could easily put it elsewhere.
17:35:50LloreanMost of my apps seem to put things in /sdcard/data/(appname)
17:36:26[Saint]As it should...Listen is a Google podcast-esque kinda thing.
17:37:00[Saint](That's buggy as hell :))
17:38:19[Saint]RaaA should /probably/ use /sdcard/data/rockbox as well...if we actually care about "clean" sdcards.
17:38:47TorneWe shouldn't use /sdcard at all, really
17:38:52[Saint]Ans not drop dies hither and thither.
17:38:53TorneThe paths are not actually guaranteed to be fixed
17:38:55Torneor sensible.
17:39:08Tornesome andorid devices now have /sdcard-ext incidentally :)
17:39:10Zagorhow come the menu option was called "Playlists catalogue" rather than just "Playlists", btw?
17:39:21Zagorso we could argue the spelling? ;)
17:39:23Tornebecause they have internal eMMC and *also* a card slot
17:39:43TorneSo yeh. We should be calling the magic android APIs that give you the right places to put data
17:39:53TorneUnfortunately they don't really give us the info we want :)
17:40:03LloreanZagor: Because it doesn't find them itself, so they must be manually added, I guess?
17:40:06Tornehow to resolve this problem: er, yeah, dunno
17:40:55*[Saint] cracks the google-whip
17:41:00ZagorLlorean: no I mean the actual text shown in our top menu. why "catalogue?" it doesn't match "Files" for instance.
17:41:01[Saint]Fit it!
17:41:09*Llorean would like a simpler playlists interface, where adding/modifying playlists is activated through the context menu on them, selecting a playlist just plays it, and "Playlists" isn't anything special other than being a shortcut to a folder.
17:41:43*[Saint] could think of a better time to gave brought that up....:)
17:41:59[Saint]Like, ~4 or 5 weeks ago.
17:42:04Llorean[Saint]: I've said that several times over the years.
17:42:31Zagorit's always a good time to make things better
17:42:38Llorean[Saint]: I objected to the patch but was told my objection didn't count.
17:42:46[Saint]But not during the development of the catalogue? Nor checking for regressions? ;)
17:42:59[Saint]Regressions always matter.
17:43:04LloreanWhat regressions? Apparently everything's working as intended.
17:43:13[Saint]Differences of opinion not so much.
17:43:16n1sthe pl catalogue was added years ago
17:43:35n1sand it always seemed a rather obscure feature to me
17:44:01Lloreann1s: It is nice to be able to context menu on an arbitrary file, and then add it to an arbitrary playlist.
17:44:07[Saint]Llorean: if it doesn't work as it used to...which you suggest, without good reason to, I'd call that a regression.
17:44:31 Quit keyb_gr (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
17:44:39Llorean[Saint]: The intent of the patch was to make a bunch of things not work as they used to.
17:44:54Llorean[Saint]: So, that goes into "differences of opinion" as to what old behaviours should be kept
17:45:11n1sLlorean: yeah, that sounds nice if you do playlists, i didn't know it could do that
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17:48:02LloreanIt's one of those cases where "let's stop and look for a well rounded solution" was dismissed with "stop objecting, this idea works okay, let's go" I think. The fear that if we stop and think, nothing will ever get done.
17:48:38[Saint]Which in fairness often happens.
17:48:59LloreanI think "doing nothing" is better than "doing the wrong thing, then having to fix it later"
17:49:14n1sto some, that is progress
17:49:17[Saint]...nothing gets done. Or things that were done rot.
17:50:31[Saint]Having to fix a misguided implementation makes it more likely the right implementation will get in, that waiting for the right implementation before comitting.
17:50:46[Saint]Not always appropriate, but, ...yeah.
17:51:03LloreanI agree that that might be the case, but I don't agree with that as being a good way to treat other developers, and users.
17:51:17[Saint]If its I
17:51:35[Saint]*immediately after a release..."meh".
17:51:47 Part Zagor
17:51:56LloreanBugs are one thing. Bad features are another.
17:52:03n1s[Saint]: as long as fixing the thing doesn't change the UI because then it's impossiblew
17:52:09[Saint]Oh, certainly.
17:52:28LloreanIf a good feature might have a lot of bugs. This happens. A bad feature shouldn't be committed to prompt someone else to write a good version of it.
17:52:38[Saint]I learnt that the hard way.
17:53:04[Saint]It'll be a cold cold day in hell before I bring up a simple ui change again :)
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18:07:04 Quit GermanMushroom (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
18:07:16*fatline hello world
18:10:51[Saint]Hello fatline...? :)
18:11:07fatlinehi :)
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19:08:12chaserhi all
19:09:53chasercould anyone please tell me something technical about rockbox
19:10:47[Saint]Anything in particular?
19:11:03[Saint]Or just something random?
19:11:44chasersomething partcicular and random hehe
19:12:01chaseris there any development to playback 24/192 flac?
19:12:20chaserand can a compile be seen to be rockbox by looking at the hex?
19:13:00LloreanNobody who wants 24/192 playback has stepped forward to do the work, as far as I know.
19:13:13LloreanWhat do you mean by the second question? It seems confusing.
19:13:33chaserI have a Colorfly C4 and I just wanted to know if the source was Rockbox
19:14:05[Saint]I assure you it isn't :)
19:14:23[Saint]At least, no official port.
19:14:45chaserthis is why i wonered if there was a hex on the binary that may show it being rockbox
19:15:13chaserI have a download of the firwamre
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19:15:16Llorean Rockbox is open source. They could remove or change anything they wanted.
19:15:29chaserthought they may be stupoid hehe
19:15:42chaserand left it it
19:15:48LloreanYou'd basically need to actually understand what the code does, and compare algorithms in areas that they're unlikely to have changed, etc.
19:15:50saratogawe do support 192/24 flac
19:16:10[Saint]Ask for the sources...if its using rockbox code, they'd need to give you the sources the used.
19:16:21TorneWe resample it moderately badly though, no?
19:16:23saratoga i added it a while ago
19:16:23[Saint]*they used.
19:16:24Torneand it may not decode fast enough
19:16:28Tornedepending on cpuy
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19:17:02chaserfast cpu
19:17:10chasermmmm okay
19:17:24[Saint]Llorean: you forgot the simple "ask them" route :)
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19:18:32chaserI asked and they said it doesnt support
19:18:50chaserbut wont tell me if it does or doesnt use rockbox
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19:19:05TorneThat's definitely not rockbox
19:19:12Tornewell, probably not
19:19:13saratogathey dont use rockbox
19:19:17Tornethey would've had to modify a huge amount of stuff :)
19:19:31Tornesince it uses a crazy decoder chip thingy by the look of it
19:19:45[Saint]Right...Rockbox has no code specific to that device, unless it shares some hardware with another similar player we do support.
19:19:50chaserhigh performance DAC and SRC
19:20:09Torneno, the actual decoder
19:20:14chaseroh sorry
19:20:23Tornedoesn't look like it's using a general purpose CPU for it
19:20:26chaserjust so annoying it doesnt support flac
19:20:33Torneand the only decoder we've ever supported is the ancient one int he Archos that only supports mp3
19:21:03Tornewell that's what you get for buying a pretentious piece of poser hardware :)
19:21:08Torneinferior software support
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19:21:39chaserlol thanks Torne :-)
19:21:45Bagder <= lots of fun audiophile mumbo jumbo there
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19:22:06chasersound great with 24/192 .wavs
19:22:33Bagder"the original audio must pass through 8 modes from input to output for the sake of getting the perfect voice"
19:22:58saratoga14/192 is stupid anyway, so no surprise the thing is crap
19:23:32saratogaclueless customers means bad hardware
19:26:02chasertoo much noise at 192
19:26:40chaserand 176
19:27:15[Saint]"The audio must pass through 17 layers of concentrated unicorn stem cells, and be bombarded with neutrinos for the perfect voice..."
19:27:17saratoganoise has nothing to do with sampling rate
19:27:57*[Saint] loves audiophiles
19:28:04saratoga96 and 192 are dumb because they dont do anything useful
19:28:26chaserit adds noise when sampling at that frequncy
19:28:33chaser88 is the best I find
19:28:35saratogajust marketing crap for people with more money then sense
19:28:43chaserhigher numbers means nothing
19:29:20[Saint]Yeah...unicorn stem cells is where the good audio is at.
19:30:24[Saint]And neutrinos, so the sound travels faster than light, so you hear the betterness faster :)
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19:39:51amiconnJdGordon: Where can I find that patch?
19:40:15*amiconn may be able to test today, but later (maybe in 3 hours or so)
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19:52:11*amiconn has frequent hangs on swcodec too, specifically H1x0
19:52:41amiconnBuild is not fully up to date yet though
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20:03:44telliottI just got a 160GB iPod Classic and I'm reading about EmCORE
20:04:44 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
20:04:57[Saint]Although it might seem so emCORE and rockbox aren't related projects.
20:05:16[Saint]The classic is still officially "unusable"
20:06:06telliottThat sucks. I guess I'll wait then
20:06:23[Saint]Mostly due to lack of dual-boot, and no rockbox bootloader, and the non-trivial installation method.
20:07:05[Saint]Its certainly usable, just don't expect a tonne of support yet ;)
20:07:05telliottDo you know what options the emcore boot loader procides?
20:07:40[Saint]Basically nothing except booting rockbox and apple's disk mode.
20:07:41telliottI have been using Rockbox for years on my Archos
20:07:52[Saint]Unless you're an advanced user.
20:08:35telliottI did see a video of someone using a hacked version of the iPod software
20:08:58[Saint]EMCORE is a VERY powerful tool...a lot more powerful than an average user needs it to be, really.
20:09:36[Saint]Its the only way yo boot Rockbox presently, though.
20:09:38TheSeven[Saint]: wrong, it doesn't even boot disk mode
20:09:51TheSevenjust rockbox, umsboot, console, tools, and i think that's it
20:09:51telliottOne thing I hate most about the ipod software is the distorted album art
20:10:14[Saint]Oh? I thought disk mode was bootable from EMCORE on the classics now.
20:10:19[Saint]My mistake.
20:10:23TheSevennope, no apple code at all
20:10:35TheSeveni'd really like to know why it fails though
20:11:18telliottI finally baught a classic since the current model will most likely be the last
20:11:31TheSevenyeah, seems like that
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20:12:36telliottI guess I'll wait till the developers say Rockbox is working fully
20:12:49[Saint]It is working.
20:13:15[Saint]"Unusable" is simply a classification.
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20:13:37[Saint]Due to it not meeting certain criteria.
20:14:03[Saint]It's certainly usable though.
20:14:12 Part WalkGood
20:14:32telliottSo can I install the emcore loader and rockbox without losing my music?
20:14:57[Saint]You'll need to back it up first.
20:15:05TheSeveninstalling emcore will wipe absolutely everything that's on the ipod and completely remove the apple firmware
20:15:11[Saint]The install formats the disk.
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20:15:32[Saint]So you'll lose iTunes compatibility also.
20:15:38[Saint]If you care.
20:15:53telliottI don't care about losing the ipod software. I love Rockbox.
20:16:18[Saint]After installation, as far as iTunes is concerned its no longer an iPod.
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20:16:33[Saint]Just a big removable disk.
20:17:14telliottanny current issues with the rockbox software itself?
20:17:26[Saint]Plenty :)
20:17:42[Saint]Nothing serious, though.
20:18:02[Saint]Battery life on the classic sucks a bit...that's all really.
20:19:20telliottI may wait a bit. I'm using MediaMonkey to convert flac files to mp3 and load my ipod. It's taken a couple of evenings overnight
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20:20:56telliott[Saint], thanks for the info
20:20:57[Saint]Just don't bother and use flac on rockbox :)
20:21:49telliottI like high bitrate vbr mp3 files for portable use. I can fit more on the drive
20:21:53[Saint]No problem.
20:22:49telliottI'm currently encoding vbr at -v1
20:23:07[Saint]Quite a few users have had success with putting large capacity ssd disks in the Classic.
20:23:21[Saint]Expensive, but worth it.
20:23:38telliottI'm sure but I'm not ready for that yet
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20:24:33telliottWhat is the largest drie now that will fit in the slim classic case?
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20:27:35wodzTorne: does it look ok for you? 1)it changes mode to sys 2) allocates separate stack for svc/abt/undf 3) makes SWI explicitly forbiden now.
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20:28:13wodzTorne: If that's ok I'll go and modify the rest of Crt0.S files and post a patch on FS
20:29:23wodzI quickly tested that it boots on my rk27xx
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21:43:34MeAgainHiya, is there an RSS feed or the SVN changes?
21:43:43MeAgainCant seem to find one on the website
21:45:33Bagder perhaps
21:45:55y4nthere is no RSS feed for the new stable versions
21:45:58y4nwhich is a shame
21:46:02Bagdersee for alternative feeds
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21:52:11MeAgainperfect, thank you gevaerts
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21:55:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:05:11n1sthere are some flac files with huge block sizes that we do not currently support, we could though, at least on targets with large codec buffers, although, those files are rather uncommon
22:05:41n1si don't think the official encoder creates them unless it's explicitely told to
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23:13:50*pixelma thought Rockbox supported a few of the simpler compressed WAV formats like IMA ADPCM on swcodec for a while now (but is laaate to the discussion)
23:14:17gevaertspamaury: isn't that only for playback?
23:14:34pamaurygevaerts: what ?
23:15:07pixelmaoh, maybe I missed he meant for recording only
23:15:20pixelmapamaury: I guess that was for me
23:15:23gevaertspamaury: oh, sorry. I mis-tabbed...
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23:16:36bertrikpamaury, half an hour loss runtime off 15h isn't *that* bad
23:17:26pamauryno, but is there any gain on something else ?
23:18:12bertrikhigher max volume, slightly better audio quality and a strong reduction in clicks
23:19:52keyb_gr...Specifically, power-off pop noise. Always bugged me.
23:19:56bertrikand it's the setting the OF uses :)
23:20:41 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
23:20:59keyb_grI presume Sandisk's engineers chose 2.5 V as a good compromise between pop noise suppression and loss of runtime.
23:21:43bertrikI didn't really notice the power-off pop to be honest, but maybe it's my headphones
23:22:00bertrikor maybe a habit of taking off the headphones before power-off
23:22:39keyb_grIt never was a big issue for me on my low-impedance SE420s, but quite annoying on HD590s (100 ohm) or external speakers.
23:23:16keyb_grSo definitely a function of load impedance.
23:23:22 Quit Stummi (Quit: Bye!)
23:25:49wodzlyre_proto1 crt0.S is completely different from our other startup codes and moreover this target doesn't compile at all
23:26:10pamaurywell I agree half an hour is not too much, if it brings better audio quality and reduce annoyance
23:26:42pamaurywodz: different in which way ?
23:27:13bertrikI guess it once did compile, but it's not part of the build system, so it it breaks nobody notices
23:28:01pamauryand nobody cares about it ;)
23:28:40wodzpamaury: all arm crt0.S are derived from one of two 'designs' and are quite similar. Lyre's one is differently structured.
23:28:52wodzHeh it isn't even used
23:29:08bertrikproblem solved!?
23:29:11pamaurybut a ctr0.S can't be *that* different, you basically always do the same thing
23:29:26pamauryit shouldn't be in svn if it's unused, it's misleading
23:30:11wodzSOURCE refers to this file but compilation pics firmware/target/arm/crt0.S
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23:35:07keyb_grHow's runtime on AMSv2 looking on RB vs. OF anyway? Last time I checked RB was slightly ahead, wasn't it? I guess that was due to lower analog supply...
23:36:09keyb_grBTW, when reading this thread...
23:36:44keyb_gr...I wondered how USB voltage threshold is set up on AMSv1.
23:36:57bertrikwe don't have much data about OF runtime, but the one we do have shows a huge improvement in runtime over the OF
23:38:36keyb_grHuge? Hmm. Using Vorbis or FLAC, sure, but plain MP3?
23:39:01bertrikand somehow we're doing worse on the clip v2
23:41:36bertrikyes, mp3
23:42:18keyb_grThat's odd. ClipV2 should be more or less like a Clip+ minus SD, and different radio chip.
23:42:37bertrikmyabe the radio chip was not turned off ... :|
23:43:04keyb_grKinda unlikely though, isn't it?
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23:43:51keyb_grAh, now I remember where the big runtime advantage was observed: With external SD!
23:44:06keyb_grOF seems really bad there.
23:46:38amiconnNot-turned-off chips aren't that unlikely if you don't have hw documentation, and they can be quite a battery drain
23:47:19*amiconn is reminded of the OTG chip on the H300
23:50:10keyb_grClips have either Si4702 or RDA5802 tuners though, both of which are at least reasonably well documented.
23:50:51keyb_grLooking at SansaRuntime, it seems ClipV1 is the one with shortened runtime.
23:51:02amiconnEven if every chip has public documentation, there's still the hook up that might cause headaches
23:55:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:55:44bertrikAMSv2 still uses 1-bit instead of 4-bit mode for sd cards
23:56:30bertrikand tries to use high-speed mode (max 50 MHz instead of 25 MHz) to make up for it, but only some sd cards support that (the internal sd doesn't)
23:56:49bertrikAMSv1 I mean
23:58:06bertrikAlso AMSv1 uses a bit of an awkward boosting scheme. It boosts to 248 MHz, but this requires the voltage to be boosted too.
23:58:13 Quit ReimuHakurei (Remote host closed the connection)
23:58:30keyb_grWouldn't it be a good idea to disable highspeed mode on the ClipV1 then? With no SD and all.

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