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#rockbox log for 2011-10-08

00:01:47 Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:02:04 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
00:02:25 Quit thomasjfox (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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00:17:25saratogabertrik: did you get your Zip yet?
00:17:39bertriksaratoga, still waiting ...
00:17:55saratogaIIRC sandisk said they're be shipping in Europe this coming week
00:18:19bertrikoctober 10th as far as I know
00:18:47saratogawhats there to do when you get it? try patching it and hope it doesn't brick?
00:19:03bertrikyes, basically
00:20:19bertrikstep 0 is to just boot the OF unconditionally, then get button readout to work by adding a conditional delay to starting the OF, then make a real dualboot loader
00:20:46bertriknext step after that is to get the display to work in the bootloader
00:29:06bertrikSo, there's a new firmware for the clip+, which has as one of the changes "Supports newer memory configuration"
00:29:27bertrikI wonder if this means they changed something in the hardware
00:30:10CIA-14New commit by kugel (r30725): Fix touchscreen behavior in time&date screen.
00:30:23bertrikIf so, we might start to see clip+es that rockbox won't work with
00:32:04CIA-14r30725 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (kugel committed)
00:32:10bertrikWe could check for any changes in the DRAM setup in the newer firmware
00:32:42*bertrik is tempted to fix that last warning
00:34:33bertrikor maybe not, it's some storage-related #ifdef thing, better leave that to gevaerts :)
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00:49:39CIA-14New commit by bertrik (r30726): sansa clipplus: add version 01.02.16 to mkamsboot as a firmware that can be patched
00:51:58CIA-14r30726 build result: 0 errors, 5 warnings (bertrik committed)
00:52:50saratogathat firmware has been showing up on new players for a couple months I think
00:53:03saratogathey've always been able to downgrade to .15 without trouble
00:54:18bertriksaratoga, ah yes
00:54:39saratogai wonder why they finally released it now that the player is discontinued
00:59:07CIA-14New commit by kugel (r30727): Fix exit/return behavior in the id3 info screen.Fixes returning immediately on touchscreen.
01:01:33CIA-14r30727 build result: 0 errors, 5 warnings (kugel committed)
01:02:58 Part domonoky
01:05:21kugelFS #12323
01:05:22fs-bluebot Touchscreen: Show line separator in lists (patches, new)
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02:52:23 Nick RiotGear is now known as KiwiCam (
02:54:34KiwiCamI'm using a PBar for volume. How can I get the background image to also only appear when the Volume is being adjusted? %Vl(g,77,34,51,5,-) %x(j,vol-horz-bg.bmp,0,0) %xd(j) %?mv(1.0)<%pv(0,0,-,5,image,vol-horz-fg.bmp)|>
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03:01:21KiwiCamGot it.
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03:02:30KiwiCamI needed to use an %xl and Backdrop: %xl(J,vol-horz-bg.bmp,0,0) %Vl(g,77,34,51,5,-) %?mv(1.0)<%pv(0,0,-,5,backdrop,J,image,vol-horz-fg.bmp)|>
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03:55:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:19:02chkktrihow can i get one file from whole svn directory of rockbox?
04:19:14chkktri(i need opltables.h)
04:24:53LloreanI believe you can just browse and view individual files
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04:34:12 Quit fiesh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:35:40KiwiCamI'm stuck. Maybe I'm overthinkng things...If Time Format is 24 Hours do nothing / If it's 12 and after 12 midday, display a bitmap. What am I doing wrong please? %?cf<|%if(cH,>,12)<%xd(K)>>
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04:37:18*KiwiCam is away: Oh look! What's that over there...
04:37:22*KiwiCam is back (gone 00:00:02)
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04:43:19robin0800KiwiCam, I think cf will always be true even if 12hours is in use
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05:14:26KiwiCamOK. I found this: %?St(time format)<|%cp> I should be able to replace the %cp with a bitmap.
05:15:10[Saint]What are you wanting to achieve?
05:15:44[Saint]KiwiCam: ^
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06:21:34 Part jvd
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06:35:36KiwiCam[Saint]: I'm just wanting to show a "PM" (just a tiny bitmap) indicator next to the Clock when it's in the PM :) and the clock is set to 12 hour format. I think I've got it sorted now, but if you have a suggestion, I'll take it.
06:40:00KiwiCamI'm almost finished with my theme (a couple actually). It's taken me a long time to do these, as, apart from time, although I know what I want, learning how to achieve it has been hard. For me :) I'm about to unleash some serious AWESOME though. Oh Yeah!
06:44:10[Saint]Oh...hang on.
06:44:21KiwiCamThey're just Clip themes, mind you. But, I haven't seen any themes like these, Clip or otherwise. So, just a little tidy up and some final tweaks...
06:45:07KiwiCamlittle s/b a LOT ;)
06:46:11[Saint]No....shit, that won't even do it.
06:46:46[Saint]Oh, yes...yes it will.
06:47:24KiwiCamThis is why I thought %cf was what I was wanting, but I just cant get that to work. Isn't that what it's for?
06:47:54[Saint]That will check for an rtc, check for 12 or 24 hour time, then display a lower case am/pm
06:48:27KiwiCamI don't want to use the %cp, just a small bitmap (like on a Digital Alarm clock. You know. The Dot.)
06:49:27[Saint]I don't think we have an am/pm condition.
06:49:30KiwiCamSo the %cc makes all the difference...? I'll have to try it...
06:49:51[Saint]No...%cc just checks for an rtc
06:50:18[Saint]%?cc<%?cf<|%cp)>> (I forgot a >)
06:50:23KiwiCamThe manual says %cf use for a conditional for 12/24 hour format.
06:50:50KiwiCam%?cf<24 hours stuff|12 hours stuff>
06:50:55[Saint]Yeah...that's 12/24, not am/pm
06:51:06[Saint]Big difference.
06:51:22KiwiCamWHich is why I was trying this: %?cf<|%if(cH,>,12)<%xd(K)>>
06:52:17[Saint]....that _should_ work.
06:52:54KiwiCamIf that's the case, I've got conflicting viewports then....I guess.
06:53:34[Saint]It'd be a lot easier to use the built in am/pm though :) ill need to actually look at some docs, as opposed to digging these tags out of the nightmare that is my mind :)
06:54:22[Saint]I can't do that right now...if you're around later, and haven't figured it out, ill give you a buzz.
06:55:36KiwiCamI'm going to sort out some dinner, watch the Rugby and then probably forget about this until tomorrow. So, no hurry. I was sure my code was correct, but it's just not playing ball. So, it's something else I've done that's conflicting with it. %St looks like that'll work as well.
06:58:17[Saint]Using %St(time-setting-i-cant-remember) is just the same as %cf
06:58:35KiwiCamSo, who's going to win tonight's games? I'd like to see France beat England (even though I lived in ol' blighty for 10 years) and Wales, but my gut tells me it'll be England and Ireland.
06:59:31KiwiCam* Wonders how to do those thought thangs...
06:59:42KiwiCam* Nice.
07:01:25KiwiCam* Remembers that he has only half an hour to get some beers for the games
07:02:04*[Saint] apparently was too vague...
07:02:26[Saint]*cough* #rockbox-community *cough*
07:02:43KiwiCamApparently so. How do I do those * things?
07:03:05KiwiCamTrouble. Moving...
07:03:41[Saint]Asterisks? Ummm...type them? ;)
07:08:52*KiwiCam is away: Oh look! What's that over there...
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10:09:17gevaertsKiwi_CAM: please don't have your irc client announce your away status like that
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10:27:04rolois anyone online?
10:27:17roloAll I want to ask is:
10:28:40rolohow long until rockbox works on ipod classic? If its going to take too long I will buy a gen 5 or 5.5 ipod video, but if its close away I rather wait
10:28:49rolowhat do you guys reckon
10:29:51saratogarockbox already runs on the classic, check the wiki
10:31:45roloI read on the site that it does, but on DFU mode and unstable. or not?
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10:55:25kugelZagor (logs): I just had it again:
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11:26:12n1sheh, people are using a build from 2006 to use big disks in their archoses
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12:09:13CIA-14New commit by nls (r30728): libtremor: hack to work around huge allocations for the comment packet in files with embedded album art. Should fix playback of such files on targets ...
12:09:51n1sbah, should have mentioned fs#11856 in the commit message
12:09:52fs-bluebot Set of ogg vorbis files will not play (bugs, unconfirmed)
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12:16:54CIA-14r30728 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (nls committed)
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12:18:05CIA-14New commit by nls (r30729): fix warning in debug code
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12:23:31CIA-14r30729 build result: 0 errors, 5 warnings (nls committed)
12:24:19CIA-14New commit by nls (r30730): libtremor: build with -O2 for cf, gives a slight speedup on high bitrate files (~1%)
12:25:28n1samiconn: are you planning to look at that player/charcell theme stuff or should i just go ahead and #ifdef out the code giving these warnings?
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12:29:46CIA-14r30730 build result: 0 errors, 5 warnings (nls committed)
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12:46:04n1suh, that printf format specifier change fixed the warning on sim but created one for targets if that code is enabled, gcc says it's getting an int but the function returns size_t, hmm
12:48:28kugeln1s: which one?
12:49:10n1sdoesn't matter much but it's a bit weird
12:50:28n1sah, the header isn't included for target builds so it's implicitely defined, i guess i missed that warning
12:54:23pamauryHey, I got an answer from Rockhip (asking for info about RKNano) ! They completely misunderstood my mail but at least that's not a clear no, I replied something
12:54:37n1show should i enable logf in codecs?
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12:59:05pamauryn1s: you must enable logf in configure then #define LOGF_ENABLE #include "logf.h"
12:59:27n1spamaury: yeah, that include thing doesn't work in codecs
12:59:44pamauryreally ? I would it would redirect to rb->logf(...)
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13:01:23n1sseems the include thing isn't needed for codecs
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13:11:25CIA-14New commit by thomasjfox (r30731): Remove errorneous ; after "for" statement. ...
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13:14:17kugelthomasjfox: heh, wow
13:16:38CIA-14r30731 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (thomasjfox committed)
13:21:10n1sdid it fix an actual isse?
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13:22:54thomasjfoxProbably, I didn't check it at runtime, just saw the bug.
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13:40:54JdGordon(reading backlogs), the reason playlists was renamed to "playlist catalogue" was to make it absolulty obvious that there was a difference between the catalogue and the currently running playlist and the actions you can do with each
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14:14:02 Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
14:17:25mortalisI'm making new port - FS #12319. When I try 'make reconf' it fails with following error:
14:17:27fs-bluebot HiFiMAN HM-601 initial work (patches, unconfirmed)
14:17:28mortalisUsing temporary directory /tmp Please select a supported target platform! make: *** [reconf] Error 7
14:17:45mortaliswhat I've missed out
14:19:43pamauryrunning tools/configure directly works ?
14:20:28 Quit [Saint] (Remote host closed the connection)
14:21:40pamaurystrange, I don't see anything suspect in your changes, can you retry running tools/configure and then make reconf ?
14:24:24mortalisI've tried allredy several times
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14:29:38CIA-14New commit by pamaury (r30732): imx233/fuze+: declare 3d audio capability, update lang accordingly
14:29:48 Quit ukleinek (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:30:02pamauryok let me try your patch on my computer
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14:32:01pamaurymortalis: is it expected that it does not compile ?
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14:33:39mortalisbootloader must compile
14:33:57pamaurymortalis: you need to have 190|XXX) where XXX matches modelname="XXX"
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14:34:05pamauryso in your case 190|hifimanhm601) will work
14:34:26CIA-14r30732 build result: 0 errors, 2 warnings (pamaury committed)
14:38:47pamauryhum, this usb_mmc_countdown thing confuses me, I have no idea why it was introduced
14:41:47thomasjfoxha, upstream libfaad didn't have the ";" issue anymore
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14:53:49pamaurywodz: (for the logs) your sys mode on arm works for both bootloader and firmware
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15:00:05CIA-14New commit by pamaury (r30733): usb: only declare usb_mmc_countdown on target which don't use the usb stack
15:00:19pamauryI hope it won't fail with hundreds of errors :)
15:04:43CIA-14r30733 build result: 0 errors, 2 warnings (pamaury committed)
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15:08:05pamauryah at least the two warnings least are not my fault
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15:12:53Martusany news about fuzev2 usb support?
15:17:58pamaurybertrik recently found some setting in the OF which might lead to stable usb but I don't remember if it solved the problem or not
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15:51:19MartusAnd I have to ask once more question. Is it normal that my fuze can play average 13h using rockbox?
15:51:59JdGordonwould you like more or less?
15:53:05Martusmore of course ;p according to official data it should remain up to 24h
15:54:21MartusI've read somewhere, rockbox uses more power than official soft, but funcionality is non-comparable
15:54:57CIA-14New commit by nls (r30734): de-tabify
15:55:16JdGordonthere are way too many variable to say anything about battery life
15:55:22MartusI'd like only to know if other users have similiar times on battery, nothing more
15:55:34JdGordonthe closest you can do is play the same album in the OF an in rockbox and compare those
15:55:42JdGordoncomparing to someone else is pointless
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15:57:26Martusbut maybe I have some issue with battery so if I can know average time on rockbox it would be helpful
15:57:45n1sthere are som page in the wiki
15:57:52n1spages, even
15:57:59n1s*runtime iirc
15:58:11n1sso SansaRuntime would be my guess
15:58:36Martusbut you're right I can do comparison and it can tell me something more
15:59:36CIA-14r30734 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (nls committed)
16:00:24Martuswow according to wiki my player should play more than 20h good to know
16:00:52n1sdepends on a bunch of things though, as JdGordonsaid
16:01:13Martusbut isn't it very bad time?
16:02:23n1sthese tests are straight benchmarks, pretty much best case usage, real usage is different and it varies on codec and settings and your usage patterns
16:02:50JdGordonI wouldnt be complaining with 13h
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16:04:19Martusok so I don't worry about this : )
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16:22:12bertrikcodecs and plugins have plenty of tabs too
16:23:02JdGordondont convert tabs on imported code!
16:24:19CIA-14New commit by bertrik (r30735): More de-tabification
16:25:04n1si just spotted it in that file as i was looking in it and it was inconsistent since my editor has decided that tabs are as wide as 8 spaces
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16:26:24bertrikI just grepped for tabs in apps and firmware, excluding codecs and plugins
16:27:44bertrikMartus, the numbers on the runtime pages, are generally just in-order playback with display off
16:28:15CIA-14r30735 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (bertrik committed)
16:28:51Martusok bertrik, display eats much more power than playing
16:29:21MartusI've noticed that clock in my fuze is getting late, is it some bug?
16:29:52n1sprobably just crap hw clock
16:31:09Martusok, I was connecting bad working clock with power consuption, but it was very silly
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16:37:23bertrikI think the clock speed can be adjusted a bit in theory on this hardware, but we don't have an interface/configuration item to do that currently in rockbox
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17:17:23Mediocretomei know nothing about programming but i want to undertake porting rockbox
17:17:29Mediocretomewhat should i learn
17:17:47bertrikC programming at the very least
17:19:26bertrikknowing your way around a compiler, linker, Makefiles, configure scripts, etc. Also basic hardware knowledge is convenient, being able to recognise a chip, read and understand datasheets of chips.
17:20:02Mediocretomeso its not a specific language, or is c what its 'written in'
17:22:19bertrikrockbox is written in C for the most part, some sections are written in assembly
17:22:46bertrikI think you can get away with not knowing assembly, but you definitely need to know C
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17:50:32amiconnthomasjfox: Btw, it looks like this 'cppcheck' tool you're using sometimes finds bugs where there are actually none
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17:53:25amiconnSepcifically r30348 and r30354 - the variables which are used uninitialized actually aren't. The combinations of bit depth and pixel format where this would happen don't exist among our targets
17:54:25amiconnIf they would exist, gcc would complain for those targets - no need to use an overreacting tool. Now you're unnecessarily initializing them for all targets.
17:56:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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18:02:36saratogabertrik: apparently that new firmware just optimizes flash memory access compared to older builds, so no new clip+ models floating around
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18:17:07thomasjfoxamiconn: Yes, static analysis is never perfect. Regarding variable initialization I nowadays tend to "better safe than sorry". This doesn't cost performance/binsize at all
18:17:47amiconnEh? Sure it does...
18:18:10amiconnIt's probably just a small amount, but still
18:19:25thomasjfoxamiconn: Try to measure it. I bet you can't as it's statistical noise
18:19:42thomasjfoxamiconn: Anyhow f.e. r30351 was a real bug - unreported by gcc
18:20:04thomasjfoxSame for r30352
18:20:16thomasjfoxOr r30353
18:20:23amiconnAnyway, if the static analysis would take the valid combinations of macro settings into account, it wouldn't find a problem in xlcd_scroll
18:21:09thomasjfoxr30348 and r30354 were a safety matter. The rest of the changes are not
18:21:55thomasjfox+ the stuff pondlife fixed later on
18:22:24thomasjfoxanyhow, have to head for Japanese dinner. Cu!
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18:51:27*gevaerts isn't sure what to think of the FS #12321 discussion
18:51:28fs-bluebot Touchscreen: List line padding, to more easily select lines (patches, assigned)
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18:55:15gevaertsHaving this integrated with the new skinnable lists would of course be nice, but in my experience those aren't really ready for general consumption yet, and even when they are I suspect there will still be a need for configurable padding
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19:03:04pixelmathere are a few settings that can be done through the theme and through the menu (e.g. colours on colour targets obviously) and I'm for a setting if it isn't easily changeable on target. If there was a plugin to edit or create these theme files then maybe that would make it easier to switch to 'let the theme do it'
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19:04:03gevaertsYes, I agree
19:06:49gevaertsIn this case, I think ideally we want the setting and a way for themes that use custom lists to handle it (or not, depending on the theme...)
19:06:52pixelmaI mean settings that can possibly work with different themes or keep a theme still working and list line height could, I think (though I don't know its implementation now)
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20:49:23Blue_DudeHi, probably a ridiculous question, but is there any way to get a tarball of the daily build? I had a hard drive crash and I can't get to my svn checkout anymore.
20:50:34 Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC)
20:51:00benedikt93Blue_Dude, there is
20:52:57AlexPBlue_Dude: Not that I'm aware of, we stopped offering those a long time ago
20:54:27Blue_DudeI know it quit building them automagically, but thought maybe there was one tucked away on the site... Guess not.
20:55:10Blue_Dudebenedikt93: Thanks but I was looking for a tarball of the source code.
20:57:14 Quit othniel (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
20:57:50AlexPBlue_Dude: Well possibly, but if so I don't know where :)
20:59:47Blue_Dude:) Well thanks for reconfirming. I'll just have to wait for a new HDD before I can get to it again. Thanks.
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21:08:00pamauryI have one question regarding volume management: the fuze+ has a two stage volume control if used with headphone: "pcm" volume and headphone volume. pcm volume has [0db,-100dB] range and headphone has range [12dB,-60dB] (more or less depending on pcm/line input). Should I used both to obtain a wider range ?
21:08:48pamauryI guess other codecs have similar features, how do they handle it ?
21:10:18LloreanAre the step sizes or power efficiencies different?
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21:11:05pamaurystep size is the same (half dB), I don't know for the power
21:11:50wodzpamaury: all drivers I studied adjust headphone amp gain. The pcm stage is used as prescaler
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21:13:14Llorean-60 isn't always that quiet. On the iPod 5G don't we do something to make up for its limited range?
21:13:14bertrika range of -60 .. +12 dB from just the headphone amp would be enough for me, I think
21:14:13bertrikmaybe for people with very sensitive headphones, the range is too small, I don't know
21:14:36LloreanThe iPod 5G only went to, I think -57?
21:14:46LloreanAnd we did something to improve that because it wasn't low enough for some.
21:15:43pamauryif I use the pcm volume as prescaler, sound.c handles it automatically ?
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21:32:06kugelpi can't reply to the thread currently, my mail provider doesn't do its job today
21:32:27Slappyhazecan someone please explain why the clip+ does not have a 'backlight on hold' function?
21:32:50AlexPDoes the backlight generally work?
21:33:09AlexPAnd does clip+ have a real hold switch, or is it soft hold?
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21:33:42SlappyhazeAleP: yes, there should be an option to allow it to work with hold. Its a soft hold. Will this matter?
21:34:02AlexPMaybe :)
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21:34:21AlexPIt might be just that nobody has implemented it, or it might need implementing for use with soft-hold
21:34:23saratoga-60 dB is quite quiet, i would just use that for now
21:34:38AlexPBut I suspect there is no bigger reason other than nobody has done it yet
21:34:39saratogalater on if someone wants more, let them fix it :)
21:34:39LloreanAlexP: I'm pretty sure it's a soft hold thing. I think the regular Clip has it.
21:34:50*Llorean would say use 0 to -100 rather.
21:35:10SlappyhazeI aslo have a Clipv2, this has a real hold switch, and the 'backlight on hold' function intact. was it removed then?
21:35:11saratogaClip+ doesn't have back light on hold because it doesn't have a real hold, just soft hold
21:35:20saratogawhich isn't quite the same thing,s o not everything works with it
21:35:36kugelpi can only repeat that this patch isn't for theming, its for usability
21:35:48saratoga-100dB isn't really needed since most of these players only have ~80dB SNR
21:36:09saratogaso sooner or later you'll just hear the noise in the headphone amp rather then audio
21:36:25Slappyhazesartoga: thanks for that, so just to clarify, Clip+ cannot have 'backlight on hold'?
21:36:39LloreanSlappyhaze: Someone needs to fix soft hold to be treated the same as physical hold
21:36:51bertrikactually, the clip+ doesn't have a backlight
21:36:54saratogawell it could, someone needs to work on it
21:37:03AlexPbertrik: haha :)
21:37:07*Llorean listens at less than -60 quite often.
21:37:28Slappyhazecheers all. just as long as it a known issue.
21:37:51kugelpneither hold nor backlight, why should it have backlight on hold then? :-)
21:38:43saratogasoft hold seems to be somewhat of an afterthought on SWCODEC targets
21:39:03Slappyhazeanother idea i had influenced by my old H340, could we have the right button 'page down' at the moment it does the same job as 'select'
21:40:26AlexPProposing key layout changes is a massive can of worms
21:40:34AlexPHave a look at a few forum threads :)
21:40:44AlexPWe just need fully configurable keys really
21:40:46Slappyhazei understand, thats why I ask not propose!!
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21:55:53ukleinekwodz: I checked the usb dump, from what I can tell so far (my iceweasel got nonrepsonsive) it's the same mode as on my dap
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22:01:08ukleinekwodz: my python-program can read out the flash in the meantime. Maybe let mortalis try it?!
22:03:53*ukleinek looks at the html file in vim
22:05:29ukleinekanyway, bedtime here
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23:04:59kugelpI don't quite understand why the list padding patch is reduced to theming
23:07:08kugelpeven if it's doable in themes, it's IMO not the ideal way to do it. For one, because the theme is deactivated in some screens (mostly plugins, though)
23:08:09 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
23:08:29kugeland a theme needs to be made, which is a complex task these days. then it's very device specific, and specific to the likings of the author. The patch, however, Just Works (or tries to)
23:11:03LloreanI think list spacing is a theme concept on non-touchscreen devices, but the ability to override is without having to load a .cfg is important for touchscreen devices.
23:11:27Tornealso the theme isn't dpi-specific :)
23:11:43AlexPyeah, Torne's point was a good one
23:12:03kugelone I made long ago :P
23:12:05Tornecurrently we *don't* make themes for particular devices
23:12:09Tornewe make them for resolutions
23:12:24kugelLlorean: it's only implemented on touichscrene
23:12:31Torneand so touch target size is hard to do in themes when everything is still measured in pixels.
23:12:44Lloreankugel: I thought that was the case. I just figured I should state my whole opinion, as best I could.
23:13:23 Quit othniel (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:14:42kugeldo we really make theming mandatory, for usability?
23:14:47kugelI hope not
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23:45:59Atlanxhello - why i get a :
23:46:02AtlanxYou don't have permission to access /wiki/IrcGuidelines on this server.
23:46:13Atlanxis the wiki down?
23:46:43gevaertsWeird. I can get at it...
23:47:47Atlanxok, i try now with opera instead of firefox
23:47:51 Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23:48:39Atlanxhm, ok in opera it works - very strange
23:48:51KiwiCam[Saint]: Hey Saint. This %?cc<%?cf<|%cp)>> works (along with about 20 other ways I've wokred out) but I can't get it to work properly with a bitmap. Characters are fine, but %x() & %xd() work, but also display in 24H format. I'm after this look: These are some of the many combo's I've tried. The comments may or may not be correct: ( isn't
23:48:51KiwiCamworking for me, right now).
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23:56:16***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"

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