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#rockbox log for 2011-10-10

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03:39:58CIA-14New commit by funman (r30739): mpegplayer sync_audio_setting(): simplify / clarify ...
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03:44:00CIA-14r30739 build result: 365 errors, 0 warnings (funman committed)
03:45:17JdGordonhehe nice one
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03:50:29CIA-14New commit by funman (r30740): fix red
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03:55:25CIA-14r30740 build result: All green
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06:27:14[Saint]How does raaa set the resume position?
06:27:41[Saint]It seems rom be getting confused with my many music apps.
06:27:48[Saint]*to be.
06:28:28[Saint]I had a phonecall, and it resumed the stock music apps playlist...
06:28:40[Saint]I mean, wtf? !?
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06:42:01[Saint]Ok...just got it to happen again. Weird.
06:42:42[Saint]Music playing in raaa, phone call, end call, raaa resumes the stock music apps playlist.
06:42:56[Saint] the?
06:43:01JdGordondo the playback controls on the lock screen work for you?
06:43:41[Saint]In all MT music apps. Cm, google music, and raaa.
06:44:51[Saint]No bork bork for you?
06:45:35[Saint]Autocomplete fail.
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07:48:53kugelp[Saint]: i have this sometimes too. no idea what's wrong there
07:49:09kugelpI tend to think its a bug in cm
07:49:16[Saint]The wrong resume point?
07:49:37kugelpthat the music app plays
07:50:05[Saint]Its not "wrong" exactly...its stealing the resume point and playlist of a whole other app.
07:50:41[Saint]Its playing via raaa, but with the stock apps playlist and resume point.
07:50:46kugelpno It's not doing that here
07:50:56[Saint] ok.
07:51:26kugelpthe stock app resumes its own playlist here
07:52:17kugelpin my experience the stock app is called when raaa should have been
07:52:38[Saint]Here too. But after a phone call, if I have music playing, instead of resuming its own playlist raaa is resuming from where the stock music app left off.
07:53:26kugelpare you sure about that? I see now way how this can even be remotely possible
07:53:54kugelpraaa can only understand its own playlists
07:55:53[Saint]I'm not sure how its happening. I'm pretty sure its using the stock apps resume point or its a freakish coincidence that raaa decides to play what the stock app was playing last.
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07:58:00[Saint]I tried starting music, playing a track , stopping music, opening raaa, playing a different track, calling myself, ending the call, then when raaa resumes it plays what music last played.
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07:59:10[Saint]I can't test on stock, though. So it may be some weirdness with my cm ports.
08:01:23[Saint]Hmmmm....interesting. I wiped the music and google music apps data (so it had no resume points, just in case) then tried again and raaa resumed in a totally different place.
08:02:25[Saint]Perhaps it was some freakish coincidence, but raaa still seems to be getting its resume point wrong after returning from a call.
08:03:23[Saint]I don't see (if I understood you correctly) any problems with the stock music app starting playback. Just wrong resume points.
08:04:39[Saint]If I force close raaa, then start it again it resumes from where it was supposed to resume from after the call ended.
08:06:42[Saint]Bah...weirdness. I also need to bisect which revision started making my (actually my girlfriends) galaxy use ~10x the cpu it used to.
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08:07:23[Saint]"top -m 1" now always shows raaa. :-s
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08:08:17[Saint]It went from 1~2%cpu whilst running in the background playing music to ~20%
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08:26:38kugelp1-2% while music is playing?
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08:26:46kugelp1-2% while music is playing?
08:27:46kugelpyou said a few days ago 1-2% is without music
08:28:28[Saint]Sorry, typo. Without, yes.
08:29:32[Saint]Which is why ~20% concerns me. It doesn't climb nor drop while playing audio.
08:30:45[Saint]This might be a rom thing, but nothing else is using an excessive amount of cpu.
08:32:01[Saint]...perhaps I'm putting too much faith in top displaying things correctly.
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08:32:39kugeltry htop too
08:32:58kugelRaaA doesnt do this on my phone, using OS Monitor
08:33:13[Saint]Any flags to pass it? Or just htop?
08:38:55kugeljust htop
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08:40:08[Saint]If I'm reading it correctly... 18~22% with no audio playing.
08:40:39kugelyea, something seems wrong
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08:50:36[Saint]User 22%, System 3%, IOW 0%, IRQ 0%
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08:52:42[Saint]I suspect top is telling lies, but there's a noticeable battery hit with raaa running.
08:53:14Zagorenable thread view in top (don't remember the option) to see if there is more than one thread eating cpu
08:57:13Lalufuusually H
09:00:16kugelddms also has a thread view. and, iirc, htop also has a thread view
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09:21:47[Saint]Zagor: hi.
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09:24:23Zagor[Saint]: hi. I just want to ensure rockbox-relevant discussion gets logged.
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09:30:17[Saint]Ah...right. Basically, a discussion between myself and JdGordon earlier went along the lines of: "I think the way VLC is handling their media directory scanning is a beautiful thing, and we should "borrow" it".
09:30:38Zagorwhat is it they do?
09:32:04[Saint]They have a list of directories, that you can either check off, or enter and check off individual sub-dirs.
09:32:41[Saint]I thought we could steal this, and use it as a GUI editor for database.ignore/unignore files.
09:32:42Zagorright, Picasa does the same thing.
09:32:58Zagorbut we can't add files to system dirs
09:33:44[Saint]Currently the database walks the whole filesystem, your only hope is to put a database.ignore file in / and an
09:34:10[Saint].unignore file in /sdcard *if* you're rooted.
09:34:11Lalufuwell, vlc has the problem to solve that the file system on an general purpose PC is a) large and b) filled with a lot of junk that is not media
09:34:22Lalufuso specifying directories to scan is sensible
09:34:33[Saint]Lalufu: I'm not talking about PC.
09:34:53[Saint]VLC for Android.
09:35:10Lalufuyes, but applying the same solution to DAPs, which have smaller filesystems, and whose content is mostly media might not be ideal.
09:35:55kugelLalufu: this isn't about daps I think :)
09:36:01[Saint]There's a LOT of the filesystem you don't want the database to care about.
09:36:28[Saint]Pretty much everything except /sdcard
09:36:38Zagor[Saint]: before adding a GUI you have to create a new .ignore method, for read-only directories
09:37:10kugela gui editor would be fine, but a ;- or ,-separated list would also do, no?
09:37:27[Saint]We really just need a "start database here" thing.
09:37:52[Saint]But the nice editor for ignore files would be great.
09:38:14Zagor"start here" is not enough. we *will* have multiple disks to search
09:40:12[Saint]Then, unless we want raaa to be for root users only...a CSL (or whatever) of dies to search from is the only option I can think of.
09:41:28[Saint]As we can't plant the .ignore/unignore files in a lot of directories unless the device is rooted.
09:41:54Zagora list of dirs to *not* search is perhaps better. I suspect disks will not always have standardized names, while /usr /etc and so on are unlikely to change.
09:42:27[Saint]Right, yes. I misstyped.
09:42:28JdGordonLike I said, i'm doing this because its fun, without any intention of trying to push it upstream, which is why the talk was in -community... that said, my intention is to replace the .ignore/nuignore system completly so no files need to be added at all
09:42:47[Saint]Yeah, a list of dies to not search is far more sane.
09:43:52ZagorJdGordon: I missed you saying that, since it was not logged ;-) in any case, it's interesting to rockbox development and so I'd like to discuss it here even if you don't plan to post a patch.
09:44:16JdGordonfair enough
09:45:06[Saint](Though I hope you /do/ post a patch...or pastebin it so I can :))
09:46:29JdGordonI'm not an ass, assuming i actually get it working it will be at least on my git, and probably FS.
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09:51:14kugelZagor: then I need a much longer list, that just my "/sdcard/music", though
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09:52:27Zagorkugel: of course. but we'll automatically find /sdcard2 and /nfs/musicserver.
09:53:23JdGordonwhitelists make more sense
09:53:44JdGordonhaving blacklists inside the whitelisted folders are something which shold be removed
09:54:02kugelZagor: never heard of these
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09:54:11ZagorJdGordon: then how do we find secondary disks?
09:54:41JdGordonwe shldnt go looking
09:54:55kugela list of not-to-scan-dirs is quite contrary to standard practise, isn't it?
09:54:57JdGordonhence the origional discussion about the folder manager
09:55:19JdGordonZagor: grab the vlc apk and have a look what they do, it really is good
09:55:38ZagorI will
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09:56:40kugel(haven't looked at vlc yet) such a gui editor could be implemetned as a plugin?
09:56:54JdGordonwhy is add_search_root() ifdefed out for native builds?
09:56:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:57:46kugela) native targets can scan the whole thing just fine, b) it uses function not implemented on native builds
09:58:22kugellike malloc :)
09:58:27JdGordonwell thats going to make things irritating
09:59:12kugelfeel free to adapt it for native targets, but I don't think it's really needed
09:59:57JdGordonI thought tagcache could be given a folder to scan and add the to db?
09:59:57kugelbut I guess you want to do it if you plan on removing .database_ignore
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10:20:50pamauryI agree that native targets probably don't need special care, they only contain media basically, but for RaaA a whitelist/blacklist + gui editor is really nice. I think some people will prefer blacklists and some whitelists
10:23:50kugelI've never seen a blacklist for this kidn of thing
10:26:02pamauryThat said, I jump to a completely different subject: we should implement checkboxes in list and use that in the settings :D
10:31:23Zagoryeah it would be nice. not exactly trivial though.
10:32:19kugelnot that hard for for normal (non-skinned lists) I imagine
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10:32:58kugelmost effort is probably needed for finding suitable graphics
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10:33:22Zagorwe can't keep having two separate list implementations
10:34:07pamauryplease don't use Apple's way of displaying checkboxes with this I/O that you slide left and right :)
10:34:42Zagorhaha, wouldn't it be fun having that on android? :)
10:37:12pamaury"Rockbox: we have a setting for that" :)
10:37:51*pamaury just invented the new Rockbox's catchphrase
10:39:30JdGordoncheckboxes in the lists was never a diffiuclt fix, the issue though is 1) where to store the index or the checked items, 2) how to make a press a select or enter, 3) how to handle the multiple selections
10:40:59Zagor2 &3 don't apply to boolean settings, which is what checkboxes are all about
10:41:27JdGordonoh, did i completly misunderstand what we are talking about? :)
10:41:37ZagorI don't know :)
10:41:38JdGordonyeah, for the bool settings it would be simple
10:41:44JdGordonbut very out of place
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10:54:22Zagorwhat is required to merge skinned and non-skinned lists? where is the difference?
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11:03:40Zagoroh lookie, mail :-)
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11:22:35JdGordonZagor: one of my replies outlines what needs to be done to merge them. the non-skinned list code is pretty redundant once the needed sbs is autogenerated (which the diff i attached shows)
11:22:53JdGordonthe skn list does have some limitation at the moment, all of which need to be fixed anyway
11:26:28JdGordon*anything* the drawn list can do, the skin list can do, and in less (and more maintainable) code
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11:28:36kugelJdGordon: not yet
11:30:09JdGordonyes yet
11:30:11Zagorkugel: isn't the better solution to add what is missing to the skin list code?
11:30:51kugelJdGordon: it can't kinetic scrolling
11:30:52JdGordonarg, ok, "skin list code" is literally a wrapper around the skin rendering engine to position and draw specific viewports
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11:32:11kugelZagor: don't know. there's stuff like multiline lists, lists w/o icons, non-skinnable screens. I don't know how much work it is
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11:32:54kugelthe classic list is mostly bug free, and can be enhanced with little effort
11:33:16Zagorbut surely you agree there is a problem with two list implementations?
11:34:27kugelthe skin lists are very young and buggy, though, and I don't know the code at all to feel easy enough for touching it
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11:34:44JdGordonput it this way... I'm 99% sure that with nothing more than a sbs (with svn) I can implement the context menu dialog zagor wants
11:34:53JdGordonexcept the touch feedback colouring
11:34:59JdGordonand even that is a possibility
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11:35:46Zagorkugel: they seem to work well enough in my testing
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11:36:07ZagorJdGordon: that sounds excellent
11:36:22kugelZagor: did you try JdGordon's patch (which makes an sbs for list spacing)? it's very borked
11:36:34Zagorno I didn't. I don't see how that is an argument.
11:36:38kugelno icons, no list title, inaccurate selection, no kinetic scrolling
11:37:00kugelit exposes many bugs
11:37:02Zagorthe skinned lists in svn don't have those problems (except kinetic, because you only added it to the other list)
11:37:24kugelno, " because you only added it to the other list" is wrong. kinetic scrolling was first
11:37:31Zagorok, sorry
11:38:09Zagorbut the fact is, we want skinned lists. and we don't want two list implementations.
11:38:21kugelhm, I applied JdGordon's patch onto svn. is the sbs buggy then?
11:38:35ZagorI don't see what your proposed solution is
11:39:16kugelI don't have proposed a solution to the two-list-problem yet
11:40:07kugelI think we should perhaps keep the two lists, until the skin lists are less buggy
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11:40:44JdGordons/buggy/not 100% complete/
11:41:25JdGordonand for crying out loud. I told you already twice that the example was an *EXAMPLE*...
11:41:27kugelor, less buggy and more complete
11:41:31JdGordonyes, kinetic scrolling is missing
11:41:35JdGordonso nu? add it
11:41:41kugelit has bugs, i.e. the inaccurate selection when spacing is applied
11:42:05Zagoryou can't claim bugs in code that isn't even committed
11:42:31kugelhis patch only applied an .sbs file
11:42:47JdGordonthat example was literally the first time anyone had even tried putting spacing in the skinned list.. hardly surprisng it didnt work
11:42:51ZagorI still think you're reading way too much into that example
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11:43:38JdGordonI have no idea how kinetic scrolling works or what needs to be added to make it work
11:43:44JdGordonso, what needs to be done?
11:43:51JdGordonkugel: IIRC you implemented it origionally?
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11:46:27kugelJdGordon: yes, that's right
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11:47:02JdGordonhmm, actually maybe we cant completly do the popped up context menus in svn. I think the whole screen will get cleared when the screen changes
11:47:07JdGordonbut that can be dealt with
11:47:18kugelwell, it's all in bitmap/list.c. essentially it's pixel-accurate (not line-based) scrlling, and a timeout function to move the list without button/touch presses
11:49:33JdGordonit shold just need gui_synclist_do_touchscreen() to get the corrct item number and it will magically work?
11:50:21kugelthe drawing code needs to do the pixel accurate moving
11:51:27JdGordonit does that already
11:51:41kugelthe timeout function just tracks time, sets yoffset accordingly, and lets button_get() timeout
11:52:12kugelgui_synclist_do_touchscreen() doesnt do any drawing
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11:58:29JdGordonI'm playing with otherstuff, but it should be very simple to get the row/item in synclist_do_touchscreen()... feel free to ask
12:00:09kugelnot sure what you mean with that
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12:48:36JdGordonwhat is dir_get_info()?
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13:31:43mc2739forum admins: DM613 needs banning
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13:33:06gevaertsmc2739: I banned that user a few hours ago
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15:56:31Zagorwe need a bright idea about what to do with long lines on touch targets. the normal "scroll the selected line" obivously doesn't work when there is no selecting.
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15:57:49JdGordonwhy is there no selection?
15:58:28ZagorI mean no highlighting without selecting
15:58:36Zagoris in moving the cursor to a line
15:58:42Zagor*as in
15:59:42JdGordonleave it as is. Scrolling all lines in the list looks *terrible*
16:00:02Zagoryeah but as-is means it's impossible to see the song name in some cases
16:00:16Zagorif the file is named artist-album-nr-track.mp3 for instance
16:00:31JdGordontap doesnt select without playing the file?
16:01:13JdGordonwhat do other programs do?
16:02:33kugelthey suffer too
16:02:35ZagorI haven't found a pattern. the contact list doesn't do anything, just trunkates
16:03:18kugelthat's the pattern I found :)
16:03:25Zagoriirc some program trunkated the middle, to get artist-al[..]name.mp3
16:03:57Zagorargh, truncate
16:04:51ZagorAstro (file manager) wraps
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17:39:30GodEateranyone have any ideas how to work out what application might be swallowing the Alt+Left/Right key presses on my laptop?
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20:24:27wodzmortalis: ping
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20:27:43mortaliswodz: pong
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20:34:07wodzmortalis: I am pretty sure I know why sound doesn't work on your DAP. I2S interface is configured as slave and codec serves as master in svn. TDA1543 works as slave only AFAIK. This means you need to configure rk27xx i2s module as master.
20:35:50wodzRegarding volume - this can be probably ifdef'ed in sound.c and friends - we do not have any target with volume regulated by means of analog attenuator.
20:37:39mortaliswodz: Thanks.
20:43:53KiwiCamGodEater: What OS?
20:44:26wodzmortalis: does setup lcdif to 16bit or 18bit interface differ (can't remember)?
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20:45:57mortalisthe only differnce in lcd_data_transform
20:47:45wodzah ok
20:48:34wodzmortalis: when you sort out playback issue I am willing to commit your work
20:49:55thomasjfoxamiconn: I did another test with the uninitialized variable "issue": gcc optimizes the first assignment out anyway for -O2 and above
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21:46:47Zagordoes anyone remember why lcd-16bit-vert.c was split off from lcd-16bit.c? they don't differ very much.
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21:51:12LloreanZagor: I'm not sure at all, but I *want* to say it was during a period where there was a lot of effort to reduce the amount of #ifdefs no matter what.
21:51:54amiconn[Saint], JdGordon, Buschel (logs): I think the wrong/ missing glyphcache saving and wrong resume position all have the same root cause
21:52:38amiconnI only noticed today that current svn doesn't save anything at all on shutdown (resume position, glyphcache, disk based settings)
21:52:54amiconnOn H1x0 it even hard freezes, 100% reproducable
21:53:00[Saint]I just got a wrong resume position again, which after I stopped playback, raaa couldn't recover from.
21:53:03kugelZagor: it was for the mr500 target. I guess kkurbjun considered it sufficiently different
21:53:28*amiconn had to use a long forgotten tool today - the straightened paper clip. 3 times for 3 shutdowns :(
21:53:32kugelfwiw, I already split some identical code out to lcd-16bit-common.c
21:54:03Zagorkugel: yes, I saw
21:54:07amiconnAt reboot, it always resumes at a position it saved a few days ago, before my last rockbox update
21:54:20Zagoramiconn: that's ... bad
21:54:23[Saint]After I got a phone call, and the wrong track resumed, I stopped playback. Then after that raaa skipped through my entire database track by track playing nothing until it hit the end and force closed.
21:54:36[Saint]I had to reinstall to fix it.
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21:55:20[Saint]Something is....broken.
21:56:06amiconnYeah, rockbox has become fundamentally unstable during the last few months :(
21:56:51[Saint]Few weeks for me, but I pretty much solely use raaa.
21:57:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:57:14[Saint]I have 22%cpu usage without playback!
21:57:28*amiconn pretty much never uses raaa, and also uses rockbox less during summer than during winter
21:57:32Zagor[Saint]: that started just a day or two ago, didn't it?
21:57:47 Quit Llorean (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:58:24[Saint]Zagor: yeah, I noticed it a few days ago. But hadn't updated in a few weeks prior.
21:58:30Zagorthe plan is to release 3.10 in three weeks. it sounds like we have some work to do...
21:58:34[Saint]Still need to biscect.
21:59:24amiconnZagor: Yeah, I wonder whether we'll manage to get it stable again in time for the next release, or whether we have to roll back some of the big changes (which would be a challenge on its own)
22:00:56amiconnOr postpone the release...
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22:01:36[Saint]My thoughts exactly.
22:01:58Llorean1I wouldn't object to having a vote on skipping a release cycle, and discussing rolling back some of those big changes, so that 3.10 comes out in a few more months after things have hashed out.
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22:02:06[Saint]Even though that sucks, there's apparently vast and unknown issues.
22:02:32LloreanI keep rolling my primary player back to what is a pretty ancient build now due to various issues.
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22:03:18[Saint]If we were to roll back, it'd probably be pre-bufflib.
22:03:23[Saint]That's pretty major.
22:03:23thomasjfoxanyone tried to run the sim in valgrind yet?
22:03:25amiconnThe last stable build for me was something from mid June (but I didn't update often during summer)
22:03:30gevaertsIf we don't have a stable build, we can't release. I don't really see how that needs a vote to be honesy
22:03:59[Saint]gevaerts: dammit, I was just typing a similar sentence.
22:04:07[Saint]No stable? No release.
22:04:11Lloreangevaerts: Well, typically there's a feature freeze period to stabilize the build. It's more a decision needs to be made whether it's possible to reach stable in time.
22:05:28kugelskipping the cycle might be a bit too much
22:05:28[Saint]We can't details idea that. If we could decide its possible to be stable, it always would be :)
22:05:50Zagorhmm, looks like the vert lcd code has diverged somewhat from the horiz code.
22:05:50[Saint]Man...autocomplete messed that up.
22:05:51kugelpost pone by a month, then re-evaluate
22:06:07LloreanI think skipping a whole cycle is better than a one-month postpone, honestly
22:06:24gevaertsLlorean: why?
22:06:29Llorean3.0, honestly
22:06:37LloreanPostponing becomes a habit. A big skip "hurts" more.
22:06:45[Saint]Same, leads pressure. More time to "do it right".
22:06:46LloreanHopefully we'll be more inclined to try avoiding it again.
22:06:49gevaertsI think we should go into a feature freeze now, until things work again
22:07:01Lloreangevaerts: That was going to be my first suggestion, but I figured I wouldn't get much support.
22:07:03[Saint]*less pressure
22:07:09kugelwell, we can combine
22:07:34LloreanI would love a feature freeze until the current set of features is documented, and working as documented.
22:07:40kugelgevaerts: I'd rather get the ml stuff resolved before a freeze
22:07:44LloreanA sort of "take a step back, get things working how we claim they work, then back to moving forward"
22:07:46AlexPI wouldn't try and remove things, that'll just make it worse
22:07:50[Saint]<frowny face>
22:08:00Lloreankugel: "ml"?
22:08:07AlexPWe will just postpone/whatever until it is stable(r)
22:08:13[Saint]Can we kickban for inappropriate part messages? ;)
22:08:16kugelLlorean: the few topics on the -dev ml
22:08:19AlexPLlorean: mailing list
22:08:27gevaertskugel: that's a valid point
22:08:30LloreanAh, I was thinking "ml" as a shortening of some feature name.
22:08:49LloreanSo, for clarity, by "ml" you're referring to the disposition of the "system" menu, and the list spacing, or?
22:09:08Llorean[Saint]: It'd be hard to kick after they've left. ;)
22:09:11kugelall current topics
22:09:37Zagorare there more than those two "open"?
22:09:37*[Saint] starts more topics...
22:09:40LloreanCould you please just clarify in here, for the logs? So people don't have to go and look up mailing list archives, and try to figure out which you're calling "current"?
22:09:48AlexPZagor: list spacing
22:09:51bertrikI'm pro-freeze, anti-revert and neutral w.r.t. ml issues
22:09:51LloreanLike I said, those are the only two immediately obvious to me.
22:09:57kugelfwiw, I would like to get the list separator patch in too. but i can see the desire for an early freeze
22:09:58AlexPLlorean mentioned that :)
22:10:27gevaertsLlorean: I agree that in general feature freezes aren't popular, but we're pretty unstable...
22:10:30LloreanI'd like to revert the playlist catalog changes, but that's mostly personal (and from the fact that it seems to be confusing at least one user upset enough to start posting about it in the forum)
22:10:40AlexPYeah, pro-freeze, anti-revert, and lets get the mailing list stuff sorted one way or the other
22:10:43AlexPThen freeze
22:10:52LloreanI think we don't *need* to revert anything, but a freeze until everything we do have works would be very beneficial.
22:11:00kugelwell, yes, there are currently two topics which deal with actual changes
22:11:10kugelso list spacing and sleep timer it is
22:11:15[Saint]"Works, and is documented "
22:11:37AlexPI don't think there was much argument about the actual sleep timer change as last proposed
22:11:40gevaertsI don't mind people touching "leaf" stuff, but anything that's in any way depended on by other stuff should be bugfixes only until we're in a releasable state again
22:11:44Llorean[Saint]: Documented too, yes.
22:11:48AlexPThe argument was about menu renaming, which is another thing
22:12:05*[Saint] nods.
22:12:12Zagorgevaerts: oh, I'll just commit my major lcd code reshuffling then :)
22:12:16[Saint]The timer could have gone in lo.g ago.
22:12:23[Saint]*long ago
22:12:24kugelAlexP: another thing yes, still one I'd like to get resolved
22:12:42gevaertsZagor: is voice stable these days? If so, go for it! :)
22:12:58AlexPkugel: yeah, but one thing at a time :)
22:13:17kugelthe t&d movement also
22:13:28AlexPFrom what I remember, the sleep timer change can go in as of the last patch, no?
22:13:39Zagoryes, there was no opposition to moving t&d
22:13:45LloreanMaybe we should open a page or document somewhere, where we organize the actual "freeze" issues? Things needing fixed, documented, or resolved in a clear categorical list?
22:13:58AlexPLlorean: good idea, well volunteered :)
22:14:02amiconngevaerts: Unfortunately it isn't. Talk clips don't work atm on hwcodec; on swcodec they *sometimes* don't work
22:14:05[Saint]While there's still contention really: main menu layout and naming, I'd rather just the timer went in. It could have been comitted an age ago.
22:14:38kugelI learned "No reply" doesn't necessarily mean fine to go in :P
22:14:44LloreanAlexP: If we can bring this up in a mailing list discussion, so that I can do it without being around as much, then sure, I'll volunteer for that sort of thing.
22:15:05AlexPCan we send menu renaming to the RSB?
22:15:10LloreanZagor: There was some objection to moving it if we didn't also resolve other complaints about the system menu at the same time, I think.
22:15:20AlexPIf so, I guess we need to wait for the vote to finish
22:15:28LloreanAlexP: I'm pretty sure we mostly reached a compromise on it, I'm not sure RSB is needed.
22:15:41AlexPLlorean: heh, if you say so :)
22:15:48AlexPI just want the damn thing sorted
22:16:02AlexPWhat's the current sort of agreed upon compromise?
22:16:09kugelAlexP: are we that stuck on the renaming that the rsb is needed already? or do you want a quick decision for hte freeze? :)
22:16:14LloreanAlexP: I'm pretty sure that most people were okay with "remove top level system, move it into Settings->System"
22:16:16*kugel too slow
22:16:23AlexPOK, let's do that then
22:16:33[Saint]Llorean: that's what I thought too...sadly, we're mistaken.
22:16:34LloreanThere was some "I'm not sure it's the *best* solution, but it's okay" type responses
22:16:42AlexPkugel: I clearly just remember us being more stuck than we are :)
22:16:52[Saint]I'd like it to go to rsb just to be fucking done with :)
22:17:06LloreanIt's very definitely a compromise, it's certainly not everyone's favorite, but I think there was only one person strongly objecting, and he's promised not to get involved any more, so it should be okay
22:17:22kugelI don't think rockbox info, running time and credits should be in settings
22:17:31[Saint]He didn't promise that at all...
22:17:40kugelan "About" seems just the about perfect fit for those
22:17:49[Saint]He still wants things "done right".
22:17:57Zagorif it's jd you mean he recently said "Any patch which doesnt remove either settings or system from the top level should not be done."
22:18:07amiconnImo nothing that is in 'System' is a setting of any kind
22:18:15AlexPDidn't he just tell us that he was out of here?
22:18:23[Saint]As should we all, he's just not actively "dev'ing" anymore.
22:18:33kugelAlexP: yah, but in reality he isn't :)
22:18:34Zagornah, he just yanked his commit privileges :-)
22:18:37amiconnSo it shouldn't go there. What's wrong with the System menu?
22:18:46Llorean[Saint]: " I also wont be getting involved in discussions" were his words.
22:18:51AlexP"Unlike other people who stopped actively contributing I also wont be getting involved in discussions because I simply don't care anymore."
22:18:52[Saint]He's still involved, see the ml.
22:19:00AlexPHe can't have it both ways
22:19:33[Saint]Those words were rash...we know he loves the project. Just sick of bs.
22:19:34n1swasn't the list spacing patch just for touchscreen? we don't have any such targets classified as "stable" so it shouldn't affect the release imo
22:19:34kugelAlexP: he alraedy accussed himself of being a "rotten lir"
22:19:41ZagorAlexP: I don't think we should worry about what anyone says about how much they will or won't contribute. let's just take what we get and work from there.
22:20:12LloreanMy point was mostly, he's the only strong objector and he's said publicly he doesn't want his opinions to be part of "the discussion" at the moment.
22:20:32[Saint]kugel: I think you took that out of context, perhaps deliberately missing the humour of it for the sake of now?
22:20:40LloreanBut for an even more compromise-ey solution, we can just move T&D into settings->system, and not touch anything else at all
22:20:40AlexPZagor: Oh indeed - I was just coming from the angle that if the only dissenting person has said they are no longer part of it, then they are no longer dissenting
22:20:52thomasjfoxok, latest code is fine with valgrind.
22:21:10kugel[Saint]: no, he said that after uploading the icon-to-buflib patch, which is in fact a contribution
22:21:15kugel+to fs
22:21:15[Saint]Llorean: I agree.
22:21:35Zagorwell I must admit I agree with amiconn it is quite strange to put debugging and credits into Settings
22:21:35amiconnthomasjfox: That just tells that this kind of tools isn't worth much. We obviously do have serious problems with latest code...
22:21:37[Saint]kugel: he never said he would post to fs.
22:21:41n1sthomasjfox: i've tried debugging some things in the sim with valgrind but it's never helped me, i think because we don't really use standard malloc and friends
22:22:09amiconnI'm asking again: What's wrong with the current 'System' menu and its placement?
22:22:20n1samiconn: valgrind is pretty damn useful for regular code not inventing its own memory management
22:22:21*amiconn doesn't want to wade through hundreds of mails...
22:22:29Lloreanamiconn: We have two "System" menus, one "System settings" and one just "System"
22:22:30AlexPamiconn: I expect to find time and date settings and sleep timer settings in settings
22:22:38LloreanT&D involves a setting (setting their offset, setting the alarm)
22:22:45LloreanIf you remove T&D from "System" it leaves "Debug" and "About"
22:22:51LloreanIt's a very small menu for top-level placement
22:22:51AlexPBut I agree that debug would be odd there
22:22:59kugelZagor: yes, strange for rockbox info and running time too
22:23:16[Saint]He said he was a liar, in jest, for thinking no one had done anything with bufflib outside of the things he knew of. Then discovered that he had, and forgot about it. I think you missed the humour.
22:23:19LloreanIn many devices, like an Android phone, the Settings menu also contains the "About" information
22:23:27LloreanIt may not be strictly logical, but it's something users are used to seeing
22:23:29AlexP[Saint]: Can we just forget it
22:23:36amiconnAlexP: Time settings - agreeable (although it's quite special). Sleep timer - definitely not. It's a function, not a setting
22:23:46AlexPamiconn: I set the sleep timer
22:24:05amiconnYou set and start it
22:24:17LloreanFor now, just move T&D and add the new features.
22:24:17AlexPSee, this is why I said there wasn't an agreement
22:24:21amiconnNothing in 'settings' starts an action
22:24:27LloreanEverything else can be hammered out in the global menu restructuring that will never happen anyway
22:24:28kugelit's a setting too, with the persistent timer patch anyway
22:24:48amiconnThen the persistent value is a setting, but starting the timer isn't
22:24:54Lloreanamiconn: "Repeat", "Shuffle" and "Folder Advance" set actions to occur in the future.
22:25:00kugelbeing too nit-picky with the definitions doesn't get us anywhere too
22:25:03LloreanA sleep timer, or an alarm, are also actions to occur in the future.
22:25:14amiconnLlorean: They set a behaviour, they don'tz trigger actions
22:25:22AlexPThis is being too technical
22:25:30amiconnWe can have settings reachable from more than one place, in fact we already have that (recording...)
22:25:55[Saint]And many other instances.
22:26:12amiconnMy suggestion would be to leave everything where it is atm, put the sleep timer settings in Settings/ and also make it reachable from the sleep timer screen
22:26:22ZagorI think the Android settings menu is a useful examples. it contains loads of stuff, including a wifi scanner and application browser.
22:26:28kugelamiconn: what sleep timer screen?
22:26:33kugelthere's no such thing
22:26:48amiconnWell the function to start it
22:26:48Zagorwith that in mind, I won't object to moving System to Settings/About or some such
22:27:03LloreanZagor: To me, nontechnical users expect "Settings" to have bunches of stuff in it that may or may not be settings, but allow them to "configure" the device to their tastes and or manage it somewhat
22:27:26AlexPI agree
22:27:31kugelZagor: right. but I don't see a need to move the entire thing. unless we need one item less in the main menu?
22:27:34ZagorLlorean: yes
22:27:45Zagorkugel: wasn't that part of the idea?
22:27:46LloreanOne could also simply name the whole menu "System", honestly, it's personal preference that the top be 'Settings' because I see it called that more often (or feel like I do, I've done no study on this)
22:27:54AlexPSo then in the light of us not agreeing...
22:27:59kugelthat said, I won't object strongly against such a change
22:28:10kugelZagor: don't know, it's not my proposal :)
22:28:27LloreanSo move the current "System" into Settings, renamed as "About", and make T&D accessible somewhere in there, with the new features?
22:28:31amiconnZagor: With this kind of reasoning you could move everything into "Settings" - file browser, database, wps, ...
22:28:41kugelI just jumped on the "About" menu bandwagon which I still prefer
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22:29:18amiconnAnd debug stuff, runtime, about, rockbox info are definitely not settings
22:29:20n1sto mee this is basically that last time we discussed this and anything was done with it it was decided that t&d was not a setting or at least noone objected too much this time it apparently is a setting, i don't care which, who actually changes this stuff often enough to care?
22:30:11amiconnTime& date? At least twice a year, on some devices more often due to drift, or completely empty batteries
22:30:17kugelZagor: I can't recall the reasoning for that proposal being explained anywhere, actually
22:30:42amiconnSet time & date can be considered a setting, even if it's quite special, or not, I don't care either way
22:31:06amiconnBut the other stuff definitely isn't - that includes starting the sleep timer
22:31:33Zagorso let's call everything "System" instead
22:31:39AlexPFine by me
22:31:43kugelamiconn: the sleep timer is remembered with the other patch (and it gets an "auto apply on boot" setting), that makes it a definite setting
22:32:04amiconnThe sleep timer setting is a setting, starting it is not
22:32:09kugelZagor: that was also propsed somewhere
22:32:36Zagoramiconn: yes, but being to strict about definitions lands us with too many sections
22:32:45kugelit's unfortuantely a lot of bike shedding involved in this topic it seems
22:32:55AlexPamiconn: Splitting one thing into two places for the sake of a strict definition is utterly confusing
22:32:57amiconnWhy? We don't need more setions than we currently have
22:32:58[Saint]I still have the Google doc: people with layout proposals, look, add, comment.
22:33:39amiconnAlexP: We do have recording settings in "Settings", and we also do have them reachable directly from teh recording screen. Imo that's not confusing, but rather convenient
22:33:42[Saint]That has a few layouts in it, others should add theirs, with comments as to why its ideal.
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22:35:01AlexPamiconn: Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong, you want to put one bit of the sleep timer (setting it) into settings, and another part (starting it) into system, which to me is very confusing
22:35:51amiconnI want to put the setting in "Settings", and the function to start it *and* a shortcut to the respective setting in "System"
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22:36:51amiconnI.e. basically the same as with recording (just that the sleep timer doesn't have a separate screen, so the start function needs a menu item)
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22:37:39AlexPIf I went into settings and found the sleep timer settings (where I would expect them to be), I then would be hugely confused as to how to start it
22:37:55AlexPAnd not expect I'd have to come back out into a different location to do so
22:38:01 Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
22:38:38amiconnAnd if you went to settings and found the recording settings you are also confused as how to actually start recording?
22:38:56 Quit matze` (Remote host closed the connection)
22:39:06Lloreanamiconn: So by that analogy the top level menu item should be called "Sleep timer"
22:39:11AlexPNo, as there is a big obvious "Recording" thing in the main menu
22:39:14LloreanRather than "System" or "About"
22:39:26kugelpfwiw, i don't think the setting-function split is made up and didn't exist when system was introduced
22:40:07amiconnLlorean: Why not?
22:41:10amiconnOf course not "rather than", but "in addition to"
22:42:02amiconnWe already do have functions in the main menu I never or almost never use, like "Recent bookmarks" and "Playlist catalog"
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22:45:22[Saint]The former is a poor choice.
22:47:41kugelpso, no consensus on that topic :-(
22:47:49 Quit ChickeNE_ (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
22:47:59AlexPkugelp: See, what did I say!
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22:48:49kugelpwe lose ourselves in technicalies
22:48:55LloreanI don't know that a consensus is ever necessary.
22:49:29LloreanThere are a few different solutions that seem to be, if not ideal, acceptable to *most* of us, and probably easier for users to use.
22:52:08*Zagor adds a proposal to [Saint]'s ever-growing list...
22:53:11[Saint]Zagor: thanks. I believe it helps to visualize the nebulous structure.
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22:55:45[Saint]kugelp: Llorean: amiconn: others: Please add your proposed menu layout if you haven't already done so.
22:56:04AlexPI agree with Zagor's
22:56:04kugelp[Saint]: well, my only proposal is system->about
22:57:05amiconnMy proposed layout is "no change", so not really something to add...
22:57:23[Saint]Well, it'd still be good to list it there. As well as comments on why the other proposals don't work for you, and why you're does.
22:57:41AlexP[Saint]: Do you just want different ones here, and then there is a vote afterwards, or should I add that my proposal is to agree with Zagor?
22:58:05kugelpAlexP: did you notice it has database first?
22:58:31AlexPkugelp: Yeah, I don't care much about that
22:58:49AlexPI think that people who use it are wrong, but accept that many do :)
22:58:55amiconnI *could* live with [Saint]'s layout #2, as the settings sub-sections all have "settings" as part of their name
22:59:11kugelpI think we shouldnt do reordering in the main menu
22:59:20amiconnThat said, as a new user I wouldn't expect to find the settings in System/
22:59:26kugelpsince you can't please everyone, but only put off existing users
22:59:30[Saint]AlexP: if your ideal layout isn't already listed, then I'd like it to be.
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23:01:05Zagoramiconn: surely with that set of top-menu items, system would be the first place to look?
23:01:50amiconnAfter some guessing, maybe (probably...)
23:02:04AlexP[Saint]: Well, OK - I just swapped files and database in Zagor's, but said that I don't care that much and would be happy with his too
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23:02:17kugelpAlexP: haha
23:03:16ZagorI thought the triplet Files - Playlists - Bookmarks had a nice look to it :)
23:04:06 Quit Keripo (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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23:10:04kugelpperhaps no change is the best, we don't seem to be able to agree on something
23:10:48ZagorI wouldn't say that. amiconn just agreed that he could live with settings under "System" as long as they are clearly labeled settings.
23:11:55Zagorwhat other points on conflict did we have?
23:12:07Zagorpoints *of* conflict
23:12:20*AlexP votes that Zagor just does it :)
23:12:26kugelpwell, I don't necessarily agree with merging system and settings, but I won't object either
23:12:51kugelpI guess that means my system->about rename isn't going to happen
23:13:26ZagorI think it's better to get one item less in the top menu
23:13:28bertrikI like Zagor's proposal, but I also like my debug menu :)
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23:13:57Zagorbertrik: yeah, the hiding of that isn't a strong point in my proposal
23:13:58kugelpI'm still on the opinion that we shouldn't do further changes such as re-ordering
23:14:23Zagorkugelp: while we're unstable, or never?
23:14:44Zagorwhoa. why not?
23:15:04kugelpthere's no best order, and we have so many users (and ourselves) that are used to the current layout
23:15:47kugelpIMO the order isn't wrong in a way that needs fixing
23:16:06kugelp(which puts off existing users)
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23:16:52Zagorthen why did you want to rename System?
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23:17:54kugelpit's the same function. you recognize it's renamed, but you don't need to get used to a new layout
23:18:37kugelpre-ordering will make the keystrokes people now know by heart wrong
23:18:54ZagorI think it's the same thing. either our menu is locked in stone forever, or we're free to improve in ways we agree are better.
23:19:20Zagorhowever I'll agree you have a point that we're not exactly having a *horrible* menu order today
23:19:46Zagorand change for changes sake can be bad. especially if it needlessly hurts the user experience
23:20:41Zagorbut since our code and UI is evolved rather than designed, we might want to take a step back and refactor some things now and again
23:22:21kugelpthe main menu is one of the least-bad parts of our UI
23:23:21kugelpI don't care a lot for the ordering in the main menu, however I don't think there's one layout that's best for everyone, and I don't think the current layout needs fixing
23:25:58kugelpwhile I can see the benefit of one item less, I can't see the benefit of e.g. swapping playlists and resume playback
23:26:29Zagoranother point could be that if there is ever a good time to optimise our menu structure, I think just before introducing Rockbox to several million new users would be it
23:28:09Zagorkugelp: my thinking was that the top four items are content access functions. that's where you go to find the things you want to play. after that comes resume, which is what you want after you've already selected what to play. and then comes the "utility" functions, followed by System at the end
23:28:48kugelpI think there are many worse areas. like the possible menu depth in general settings, or the less-than-clear separation between playback and sound settings
23:29:26ZagorI don't see how that is an argument in *this* discussion. we don't have just one change to spend.
23:29:46kugelpjust saying
23:29:54 Quit [Saint] (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:29:58Zagorthere is lots to do everywhere. we don't normally balance one change against another.
23:30:47bertrikCan't we also get rid of "resume playback"?
23:31:00Zagorcan we?
23:32:53kugelpno, we cant :)
23:32:55bertrikIt feels a bit odd to me in the main menu, being dedicated to only one function
23:33:15bertriktargets with a dedicated "play" button can just use that button
23:33:23AlexPThere are those without
23:33:26kugelpthat button isnt doing the same
23:33:26AlexPe.g. android
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23:33:53gevaertsAlexP: android may have playback buttons on the sbs
23:33:53kugelpthe button goes to "last music", resume playback goes to wps specifically
23:34:05ZagorI think that would be a rather big change in our UI. we've literally always had that option.
23:34:15AlexPgevaerts: oh, true
23:34:32gevaertsOf course, that's still just "may" at this point :)
23:37:02Zagorthere are targets, admittedly very old ones, that don't have enough buttons to live without that item
23:37:11Zagorso it'd have to be conditional, at least
23:45:11 Quit bertrik (Quit: And That, My Liege, Is How We Know the Earth to Be Banana Shaped)
23:47:52*Zagor makes quite a mess in the lcd code :-)
23:48:50kugelpZagor: what are you working on?
23:49:05Zagora percent coordinate test
23:50:04Zagorinjecting a translation layer above the lcd functions
23:50:31kugelpah, interesting
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