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| 03:39:58 | CIA-14 | New commit by funman (r30739): mpegplayer sync_audio_setting(): simplify / clarify ... |
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| 03:44:00 | CIA-14 | r30739 build result: 365 errors, 0 warnings (funman committed) |
| 03:45:17 | JdGordon | hehe nice one |
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| 03:50:29 | CIA-14 | New commit by funman (r30740): fix red |
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| 03:55:25 | CIA-14 | r30740 build result: All green |
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| 06:27:14 | [Saint] | How does raaa set the resume position? |
| 06:27:41 | [Saint] | It seems rom be getting confused with my many music apps. |
| 06:27:48 | [Saint] | *to be. |
| 06:28:28 | [Saint] | I had a phonecall, and it resumed the stock music apps playlist... |
| 06:28:40 | [Saint] | I mean, wtf? !? |
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| 06:42:01 | [Saint] | Ok...just got it to happen again. Weird. |
| 06:42:42 | [Saint] | Music playing in raaa, phone call, end call, raaa resumes the stock music apps playlist. |
| 06:42:56 | [Saint] | ....how the? |
| 06:43:01 | JdGordon | do the playback controls on the lock screen work for you? |
| 06:43:09 | [Saint] | Yep. |
| 06:43:41 | [Saint] | In all MT music apps. Cm, google music, and raaa. |
| 06:43:47 | [Saint] | *my |
| 06:44:51 | [Saint] | No bork bork for you? |
| 06:45:17 | tmzt_ | MT? |
| 06:45:19 | tmzt_ | oh |
| 06:45:35 | [Saint] | Autocomplete fail. |
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| 07:44:30 | | Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
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| 07:48:53 | kugelp | [Saint]: i have this sometimes too. no idea what's wrong there |
| 07:49:09 | kugelp | I tend to think its a bug in cm |
| 07:49:16 | [Saint] | The wrong resume point? |
| 07:49:37 | kugelp | that the music app plays |
| 07:49:52 | kugelp | stock |
| 07:50:05 | [Saint] | Its not "wrong" exactly...its stealing the resume point and playlist of a whole other app. |
| 07:50:41 | [Saint] | Its playing via raaa, but with the stock apps playlist and resume point. |
| 07:50:46 | kugelp | no It's not doing that here |
| 07:50:56 | [Saint] | Oh...wow. ok. |
| 07:51:15 | [Saint] | Hmmmm. |
| 07:51:26 | kugelp | the stock app resumes its own playlist here |
| 07:52:17 | kugelp | in my experience the stock app is called when raaa should have been |
| 07:52:38 | [Saint] | Here too. But after a phone call, if I have music playing, instead of resuming its own playlist raaa is resuming from where the stock music app left off. |
| 07:53:26 | kugelp | are you sure about that? I see now way how this can even be remotely possible |
| 07:53:54 | kugelp | raaa can only understand its own playlists |
| 07:55:53 | [Saint] | I'm not sure how its happening. I'm pretty sure its using the stock apps resume point or its a freakish coincidence that raaa decides to play what the stock app was playing last. |
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| 07:58:00 | [Saint] | I tried starting music, playing a track , stopping music, opening raaa, playing a different track, calling myself, ending the call, then when raaa resumes it plays what music last played. |
| 07:58:14 | | Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 07:59:10 | [Saint] | I can't test on stock, though. So it may be some weirdness with my cm ports. |
| 08:00 |
| 08:01:23 | [Saint] | Hmmmm....interesting. I wiped the music and google music apps data (so it had no resume points, just in case) then tried again and raaa resumed in a totally different place. |
| 08:02:25 | [Saint] | Perhaps it was some freakish coincidence, but raaa still seems to be getting its resume point wrong after returning from a call. |
| 08:03:23 | [Saint] | I don't see (if I understood you correctly) any problems with the stock music app starting playback. Just wrong resume points. |
| 08:04:39 | [Saint] | If I force close raaa, then start it again it resumes from where it was supposed to resume from after the call ended. |
| 08:06:42 | [Saint] | Bah...weirdness. I also need to bisect which revision started making my (actually my girlfriends) galaxy use ~10x the cpu it used to. |
| 08:07:15 | | Join ender` [0] (~ender@foo.eternallybored.org) |
| 08:07:23 | [Saint] | "top -m 1" now always shows raaa. :-s |
| 08:07:57 | | Quit TheSeven (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.) |
| 08:08:17 | [Saint] | It went from 1~2%cpu whilst running in the background playing music to ~20% |
| 08:08:43 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
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| 08:26:38 | kugelp | 1-2% while music is playing? |
| 08:26:42 | | Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) |
| 08:26:46 | kugelp | 1-2% while music is playing? |
| 08:27:46 | kugelp | you said a few days ago 1-2% is without music |
| 08:28:28 | [Saint] | Sorry, typo. Without, yes. |
| 08:29:32 | [Saint] | Which is why ~20% concerns me. It doesn't climb nor drop while playing audio. |
| 08:30:45 | [Saint] | This might be a rom thing, but nothing else is using an excessive amount of cpu. |
| 08:32:01 | [Saint] | ...perhaps I'm putting too much faith in top displaying things correctly. |
| 08:32:12 | | Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 08:32:39 | kugel | try htop too |
| 08:32:58 | kugel | RaaA doesnt do this on my phone, using OS Monitor |
| 08:33:13 | [Saint] | Any flags to pass it? Or just htop? |
| 08:38:55 | kugel | just htop |
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| 08:40:08 | [Saint] | If I'm reading it correctly... 18~22% with no audio playing. |
| 08:40:39 | kugel | yea, something seems wrong |
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| 08:50:36 | [Saint] | User 22%, System 3%, IOW 0%, IRQ 0% |
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| 08:52:42 | [Saint] | I suspect top is telling lies, but there's a noticeable battery hit with raaa running. |
| 08:53:14 | Zagor | enable thread view in top (don't remember the option) to see if there is more than one thread eating cpu |
| 08:57:13 | Lalufu | usually H |
| 09:00 |
| 09:00:16 | kugel | ddms also has a thread view. and, iirc, htop also has a thread view |
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| 09:21:47 | [Saint] | Zagor: hi. |
| 09:23:55 | | Join Horscht [0] (~Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht) |
| 09:24:23 | Zagor | [Saint]: hi. I just want to ensure rockbox-relevant discussion gets logged. |
| 09:29:49 | | Quit Scromple (Quit: Leaving) |
| 09:30:17 | [Saint] | Ah...right. Basically, a discussion between myself and JdGordon earlier went along the lines of: "I think the way VLC is handling their media directory scanning is a beautiful thing, and we should "borrow" it". |
| 09:30:38 | Zagor | what is it they do? |
| 09:32:04 | [Saint] | They have a list of directories, that you can either check off, or enter and check off individual sub-dirs. |
| 09:32:41 | [Saint] | I thought we could steal this, and use it as a GUI editor for database.ignore/unignore files. |
| 09:32:42 | Zagor | right, Picasa does the same thing. |
| 09:32:58 | Zagor | but we can't add files to system dirs |
| 09:33:44 | [Saint] | Currently the database walks the whole filesystem, your only hope is to put a database.ignore file in / and an |
| 09:34:10 | [Saint] | .unignore file in /sdcard *if* you're rooted. |
| 09:34:11 | Lalufu | well, vlc has the problem to solve that the file system on an general purpose PC is a) large and b) filled with a lot of junk that is not media |
| 09:34:22 | Lalufu | so specifying directories to scan is sensible |
| 09:34:33 | [Saint] | Lalufu: I'm not talking about PC. |
| 09:34:53 | [Saint] | VLC for Android. |
| 09:35:10 | Lalufu | yes, but applying the same solution to DAPs, which have smaller filesystems, and whose content is mostly media might not be ideal. |
| 09:35:39 | [Saint] | ....errrr |
| 09:35:55 | kugel | Lalufu: this isn't about daps I think :) |
| 09:36:01 | [Saint] | There's a LOT of the filesystem you don't want the database to care about. |
| 09:36:28 | [Saint] | Pretty much everything except /sdcard |
| 09:36:38 | Zagor | [Saint]: before adding a GUI you have to create a new .ignore method, for read-only directories |
| 09:37:10 | kugel | a gui editor would be fine, but a ;- or ,-separated list would also do, no? |
| 09:37:27 | [Saint] | We really just need a "start database here" thing. |
| 09:37:52 | [Saint] | But the nice editor for ignore files would be great. |
| 09:38:14 | Zagor | "start here" is not enough. we *will* have multiple disks to search |
| 09:40:12 | [Saint] | Then, unless we want raaa to be for root users only...a CSL (or whatever) of dies to search from is the only option I can think of. |
| 09:40:28 | [Saint] | *dirs |
| 09:41:28 | [Saint] | As we can't plant the .ignore/unignore files in a lot of directories unless the device is rooted. |
| 09:41:54 | Zagor | a list of dirs to *not* search is perhaps better. I suspect disks will not always have standardized names, while /usr /etc and so on are unlikely to change. |
| 09:42:27 | [Saint] | Right, yes. I misstyped. |
| 09:42:28 | JdGordon | Like I said, i'm doing this because its fun, without any intention of trying to push it upstream, which is why the talk was in -community... that said, my intention is to replace the .ignore/nuignore system completly so no files need to be added at all |
| 09:42:47 | [Saint] | Yeah, a list of dies to not search is far more sane. |
| 09:43:43 | [Saint] | *dirs |
| 09:43:52 | Zagor | JdGordon: I missed you saying that, since it was not logged ;-) in any case, it's interesting to rockbox development and so I'd like to discuss it here even if you don't plan to post a patch. |
| 09:44:16 | JdGordon | fair enough |
| 09:45:06 | [Saint] | (Though I hope you /do/ post a patch...or pastebin it so I can :)) |
| 09:46:29 | JdGordon | I'm not an ass, assuming i actually get it working it will be at least on my git, and probably FS. |
| 09:47:55 | | Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch) |
| 09:51:14 | kugel | Zagor: then I need a much longer list, that just my "/sdcard/music", though |
| 09:51:50 | | Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 09:52:27 | Zagor | kugel: of course. but we'll automatically find /sdcard2 and /nfs/musicserver. |
| 09:53:23 | JdGordon | whitelists make more sense |
| 09:53:44 | JdGordon | having blacklists inside the whitelisted folders are something which shold be removed |
| 09:54:02 | kugel | Zagor: never heard of these |
| 09:54:07 | | Join [Saint_] [0] (~Saint]@122.63.166.23) |
| 09:54:11 | Zagor | JdGordon: then how do we find secondary disks? |
| 09:54:41 | JdGordon | we shldnt go looking |
| 09:54:55 | kugel | a list of not-to-scan-dirs is quite contrary to standard practise, isn't it? |
| 09:54:57 | JdGordon | hence the origional discussion about the folder manager |
| 09:55:19 | JdGordon | Zagor: grab the vlc apk and have a look what they do, it really is good |
| 09:55:38 | Zagor | I will |
| 09:55:59 | | Quit [Saint] (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 09:56:40 | kugel | (haven't looked at vlc yet) such a gui editor could be implemetned as a plugin? |
| 09:56:54 | JdGordon | why is add_search_root() ifdefed out for native builds? |
| 09:56:56 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 09:57:46 | kugel | a) native targets can scan the whole thing just fine, b) it uses function not implemented on native builds |
| 09:58:22 | kugel | like malloc :) |
| 09:58:27 | JdGordon | well thats going to make things irritating |
| 09:59:12 | kugel | feel free to adapt it for native targets, but I don't think it's really needed |
| 09:59:57 | JdGordon | I thought tagcache could be given a folder to scan and add the to db? |
| 09:59:57 | kugel | but I guess you want to do it if you plan on removing .database_ignore |
| 10:00 |
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| 10:20:50 | pamaury | I agree that native targets probably don't need special care, they only contain media basically, but for RaaA a whitelist/blacklist + gui editor is really nice. I think some people will prefer blacklists and some whitelists |
| 10:23:50 | kugel | I've never seen a blacklist for this kidn of thing |
| 10:26:02 | pamaury | That said, I jump to a completely different subject: we should implement checkboxes in list and use that in the settings :D |
| 10:31:23 | Zagor | yeah it would be nice. not exactly trivial though. |
| 10:32:19 | kugel | not that hard for for normal (non-skinned lists) I imagine |
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| 10:32:58 | kugel | most effort is probably needed for finding suitable graphics |
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| 10:33:22 | Zagor | we can't keep having two separate list implementations |
| 10:34:07 | pamaury | please don't use Apple's way of displaying checkboxes with this I/O that you slide left and right :) |
| 10:34:42 | Zagor | haha, wouldn't it be fun having that on android? :) |
| 10:37:12 | pamaury | "Rockbox: we have a setting for that" :) |
| 10:37:51 | * | pamaury just invented the new Rockbox's catchphrase |
| 10:39:30 | JdGordon | checkboxes in the lists was never a diffiuclt fix, the issue though is 1) where to store the index or the checked items, 2) how to make a press a select or enter, 3) how to handle the multiple selections |
| 10:40:59 | Zagor | 2 &3 don't apply to boolean settings, which is what checkboxes are all about |
| 10:41:27 | JdGordon | oh, did i completly misunderstand what we are talking about? :) |
| 10:41:37 | Zagor | I don't know :) |
| 10:41:38 | JdGordon | yeah, for the bool settings it would be simple |
| 10:41:44 | JdGordon | but very out of place |
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| 10:54:22 | Zagor | what is required to merge skinned and non-skinned lists? where is the difference? |
| 11:00 |
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| 11:03:40 | Zagor | oh lookie, mail :-) |
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| 11:22:35 | JdGordon | Zagor: one of my replies outlines what needs to be done to merge them. the non-skinned list code is pretty redundant once the needed sbs is autogenerated (which the diff i attached shows) |
| 11:22:53 | JdGordon | the skn list does have some limitation at the moment, all of which need to be fixed anyway |
| 11:26:28 | JdGordon | *anything* the drawn list can do, the skin list can do, and in less (and more maintainable) code |
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| 11:28:36 | kugel | JdGordon: not yet |
| 11:30:09 | JdGordon | yes yet |
| 11:30:11 | Zagor | kugel: isn't the better solution to add what is missing to the skin list code? |
| 11:30:51 | kugel | JdGordon: it can't kinetic scrolling |
| 11:30:52 | JdGordon | arg, ok, "skin list code" is literally a wrapper around the skin rendering engine to position and draw specific viewports |
| 11:31:58 | | Quit T44 (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 11:32:11 | kugel | Zagor: don't know. there's stuff like multiline lists, lists w/o icons, non-skinnable screens. I don't know how much work it is |
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| 11:32:54 | kugel | the classic list is mostly bug free, and can be enhanced with little effort |
| 11:33:16 | Zagor | but surely you agree there is a problem with two list implementations? |
| 11:33:33 | kugel | yes |
| 11:34:27 | kugel | the skin lists are very young and buggy, though, and I don't know the code at all to feel easy enough for touching it |
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| 11:34:44 | JdGordon | put it this way... I'm 99% sure that with nothing more than a sbs (with svn) I can implement the context menu dialog zagor wants |
| 11:34:53 | JdGordon | except the touch feedback colouring |
| 11:34:59 | JdGordon | and even that is a possibility |
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| 11:35:46 | Zagor | kugel: they seem to work well enough in my testing |
| 11:36:05 | | Quit Horscht (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 11:36:07 | Zagor | JdGordon: that sounds excellent |
| 11:36:22 | kugel | Zagor: did you try JdGordon's patch (which makes an sbs for list spacing)? it's very borked |
| 11:36:34 | Zagor | no I didn't. I don't see how that is an argument. |
| 11:36:38 | kugel | no icons, no list title, inaccurate selection, no kinetic scrolling |
| 11:37:00 | kugel | it exposes many bugs |
| 11:37:02 | Zagor | the skinned lists in svn don't have those problems (except kinetic, because you only added it to the other list) |
| 11:37:24 | kugel | no, " because you only added it to the other list" is wrong. kinetic scrolling was first |
| 11:37:31 | Zagor | ok, sorry |
| 11:38:09 | Zagor | but the fact is, we want skinned lists. and we don't want two list implementations. |
| 11:38:21 | kugel | hm, I applied JdGordon's patch onto svn. is the sbs buggy then? |
| 11:38:35 | Zagor | I don't see what your proposed solution is |
| 11:39:16 | kugel | I don't have proposed a solution to the two-list-problem yet |
| 11:40:07 | kugel | I think we should perhaps keep the two lists, until the skin lists are less buggy |
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| 11:40:44 | JdGordon | s/buggy/not 100% complete/ |
| 11:41:25 | JdGordon | and for crying out loud. I told you already twice that the example was an *EXAMPLE*... |
| 11:41:27 | kugel | or, less buggy and more complete |
| 11:41:31 | JdGordon | yes, kinetic scrolling is missing |
| 11:41:35 | JdGordon | so nu? add it |
| 11:41:41 | kugel | it has bugs, i.e. the inaccurate selection when spacing is applied |
| 11:42:05 | Zagor | you can't claim bugs in code that isn't even committed |
| 11:42:31 | kugel | his patch only applied an .sbs file |
| 11:42:47 | JdGordon | that example was literally the first time anyone had even tried putting spacing in the skinned list.. hardly surprisng it didnt work |
| 11:42:51 | Zagor | I still think you're reading way too much into that example |
| 11:43:11 | | Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 11:43:38 | JdGordon | I have no idea how kinetic scrolling works or what needs to be added to make it work |
| 11:43:44 | JdGordon | so, what needs to be done? |
| 11:43:51 | JdGordon | kugel: IIRC you implemented it origionally? |
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| 11:46:27 | kugel | JdGordon: yes, that's right |
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| 11:47:02 | JdGordon | hmm, actually maybe we cant completly do the popped up context menus in svn. I think the whole screen will get cleared when the screen changes |
| 11:47:07 | JdGordon | but that can be dealt with |
| 11:47:18 | kugel | well, it's all in bitmap/list.c. essentially it's pixel-accurate (not line-based) scrlling, and a timeout function to move the list without button/touch presses |
| 11:49:33 | JdGordon | it shold just need gui_synclist_do_touchscreen() to get the corrct item number and it will magically work? |
| 11:50:21 | kugel | the drawing code needs to do the pixel accurate moving |
| 11:51:27 | JdGordon | it does that already |
| 11:51:41 | kugel | the timeout function just tracks time, sets yoffset accordingly, and lets button_get() timeout |
| 11:52:12 | kugel | gui_synclist_do_touchscreen() doesnt do any drawing |
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| 11:58:29 | JdGordon | I'm playing with otherstuff, but it should be very simple to get the row/item in synclist_do_touchscreen()... feel free to ask |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:09 | kugel | not sure what you mean with that |
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| 12:48:36 | JdGordon | what is dir_get_info()? |
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| 13:31:43 | mc2739 | forum admins: DM613 needs banning |
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| 13:33:06 | gevaerts | mc2739: I banned that user a few hours ago |
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| 15:56:31 | Zagor | we need a bright idea about what to do with long lines on touch targets. the normal "scroll the selected line" obivously doesn't work when there is no selecting. |
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| 15:57:49 | JdGordon | why is there no selection? |
| 15:58:28 | Zagor | I mean no highlighting without selecting |
| 15:58:36 | Zagor | is in moving the cursor to a line |
| 15:58:42 | Zagor | *as in |
| 15:59:42 | JdGordon | leave it as is. Scrolling all lines in the list looks *terrible* |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:02 | Zagor | yeah but as-is means it's impossible to see the song name in some cases |
| 16:00:16 | Zagor | if the file is named artist-album-nr-track.mp3 for instance |
| 16:00:31 | JdGordon | tap doesnt select without playing the file? |
| 16:00:42 | Zagor | no |
| 16:01:13 | JdGordon | what do other programs do? |
| 16:02:33 | kugel | they suffer too |
| 16:02:35 | Zagor | I haven't found a pattern. the contact list doesn't do anything, just trunkates |
| 16:03:18 | kugel | that's the pattern I found :) |
| 16:03:25 | Zagor | iirc some program trunkated the middle, to get artist-al[..]name.mp3 |
| 16:03:57 | Zagor | argh, truncate |
| 16:04:51 | Zagor | Astro (file manager) wraps |
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| 17:39:30 | GodEater | anyone have any ideas how to work out what application might be swallowing the Alt+Left/Right key presses on my laptop? |
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| 20:24:27 | wodz | mortalis: ping |
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| 20:27:43 | mortalis | wodz: pong |
| 20:27:55 | wodz | mortalis: one sec |
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| 20:34:07 | wodz | mortalis: I am pretty sure I know why sound doesn't work on your DAP. I2S interface is configured as slave and codec serves as master in svn. TDA1543 works as slave only AFAIK. This means you need to configure rk27xx i2s module as master. |
| 20:35:50 | wodz | Regarding volume - this can be probably ifdef'ed in sound.c and friends - we do not have any target with volume regulated by means of analog attenuator. |
| 20:37:39 | mortalis | wodz: Thanks. |
| 20:43:53 | KiwiCam | GodEater: What OS? |
| 20:44:26 | wodz | mortalis: does setup lcdif to 16bit or 18bit interface differ (can't remember)? |
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| 20:45:57 | mortalis | the only differnce in lcd_data_transform |
| 20:47:45 | wodz | ah ok |
| 20:48:34 | wodz | mortalis: when you sort out playback issue I am willing to commit your work |
| 20:49:55 | thomasjfox | amiconn: I did another test with the uninitialized variable "issue": gcc optimizes the first assignment out anyway for -O2 and above |
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| 21:46:47 | Zagor | does anyone remember why lcd-16bit-vert.c was split off from lcd-16bit.c? they don't differ very much. |
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| 21:51:12 | Llorean | Zagor: I'm not sure at all, but I *want* to say it was during a period where there was a lot of effort to reduce the amount of #ifdefs no matter what. |
| 21:51:54 | amiconn | [Saint], JdGordon, Buschel (logs): I think the wrong/ missing glyphcache saving and wrong resume position all have the same root cause |
| 21:52:19 | [Saint] | Oh? |
| 21:52:29 | n1s | bugs! |
| 21:52:38 | amiconn | I only noticed today that current svn doesn't save anything at all on shutdown (resume position, glyphcache, disk based settings) |
| 21:52:54 | amiconn | On H1x0 it even hard freezes, 100% reproducable |
| 21:53:00 | [Saint] | I just got a wrong resume position again, which after I stopped playback, raaa couldn't recover from. |
| 21:53:03 | kugel | Zagor: it was for the mr500 target. I guess kkurbjun considered it sufficiently different |
| 21:53:28 | * | amiconn had to use a long forgotten tool today - the straightened paper clip. 3 times for 3 shutdowns :( |
| 21:53:32 | kugel | fwiw, I already split some identical code out to lcd-16bit-common.c |
| 21:54:03 | Zagor | kugel: yes, I saw |
| 21:54:07 | amiconn | At reboot, it always resumes at a position it saved a few days ago, before my last rockbox update |
| 21:54:20 | Zagor | amiconn: that's ... bad |
| 21:54:23 | [Saint] | After I got a phone call, and the wrong track resumed, I stopped playback. Then after that raaa skipped through my entire database track by track playing nothing until it hit the end and force closed. |
| 21:54:36 | [Saint] | I had to reinstall to fix it. |
| 21:55:00 | | Join Llorean1 [0] (~DarkkOne@65.104.0.183.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 21:55:20 | [Saint] | Something is....broken. |
| 21:56:06 | amiconn | Yeah, rockbox has become fundamentally unstable during the last few months :( |
| 21:56:51 | [Saint] | Few weeks for me, but I pretty much solely use raaa. |
| 21:57:08 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 21:57:14 | [Saint] | I have 22%cpu usage without playback! |
| 21:57:28 | * | amiconn pretty much never uses raaa, and also uses rockbox less during summer than during winter |
| 21:57:32 | Zagor | [Saint]: that started just a day or two ago, didn't it? |
| 21:57:47 | | Quit Llorean (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:58:24 | [Saint] | Zagor: yeah, I noticed it a few days ago. But hadn't updated in a few weeks prior. |
| 21:58:30 | Zagor | the plan is to release 3.10 in three weeks. it sounds like we have some work to do... |
| 21:58:34 | [Saint] | Still need to biscect. |
| 21:59:24 | amiconn | Zagor: Yeah, I wonder whether we'll manage to get it stable again in time for the next release, or whether we have to roll back some of the big changes (which would be a challenge on its own) |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:56 | amiconn | Or postpone the release... |
| 22:01:14 | | Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5) |
| 22:01:36 | [Saint] | My thoughts exactly. |
| 22:01:58 | Llorean1 | I wouldn't object to having a vote on skipping a release cycle, and discussing rolling back some of those big changes, so that 3.10 comes out in a few more months after things have hashed out. |
| 22:02:01 | | Nick Llorean1 is now known as Llorean (~DarkkOne@65.104.0.183.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:02:06 | [Saint] | Even though that sucks, there's apparently vast and unknown issues. |
| 22:02:32 | Llorean | I keep rolling my primary player back to what is a pretty ancient build now due to various issues. |
| 22:02:39 | | Quit Llorean (Changing host) |
| 22:02:39 | | Join Llorean [0] (~DarkkOne@rockbox/user/Llorean) |
| 22:03:18 | [Saint] | If we were to roll back, it'd probably be pre-bufflib. |
| 22:03:23 | [Saint] | That's pretty major. |
| 22:03:23 | thomasjfox | anyone tried to run the sim in valgrind yet? |
| 22:03:25 | amiconn | The last stable build for me was something from mid June (but I didn't update often during summer) |
| 22:03:30 | gevaerts | If we don't have a stable build, we can't release. I don't really see how that needs a vote to be honesy |
| 22:03:33 | gevaerts | *honest |
| 22:03:59 | [Saint] | gevaerts: dammit, I was just typing a similar sentence. |
| 22:04:07 | [Saint] | No stable? No release. |
| 22:04:11 | Llorean | gevaerts: Well, typically there's a feature freeze period to stabilize the build. It's more a decision needs to be made whether it's possible to reach stable in time. |
| 22:05:28 | kugel | skipping the cycle might be a bit too much |
| 22:05:28 | [Saint] | We can't details idea that. If we could decide its possible to be stable, it always would be :) |
| 22:05:50 | Zagor | hmm, looks like the vert lcd code has diverged somewhat from the horiz code. |
| 22:05:50 | [Saint] | Man...autocomplete messed that up. |
| 22:05:51 | kugel | post pone by a month, then re-evaluate |
| 22:06:07 | Llorean | I think skipping a whole cycle is better than a one-month postpone, honestly |
| 22:06:24 | gevaerts | Llorean: why? |
| 22:06:29 | Llorean | 3.0, honestly |
| 22:06:37 | Llorean | Postponing becomes a habit. A big skip "hurts" more. |
| 22:06:45 | [Saint] | Same, leads pressure. More time to "do it right". |
| 22:06:46 | Llorean | Hopefully we'll be more inclined to try avoiding it again. |
| 22:06:49 | gevaerts | I think we should go into a feature freeze now, until things work again |
| 22:07:01 | Llorean | gevaerts: That was going to be my first suggestion, but I figured I wouldn't get much support. |
| 22:07:03 | [Saint] | *less pressure |
| 22:07:09 | kugel | well, we can combine |
| 22:07:22 | | Quit y4n (Quit: HOLY SHIT! WE'RE ALL JUST LIVING ON A GINORMOUS FUCKING SPINNING ROCK FLOATING THROUGH SPACE CIRCLING A BIG FUCKING BALL OF FIRE!!!) |
| 22:07:34 | Llorean | I would love a feature freeze until the current set of features is documented, and working as documented. |
| 22:07:40 | kugel | gevaerts: I'd rather get the ml stuff resolved before a freeze |
| 22:07:44 | Llorean | A sort of "take a step back, get things working how we claim they work, then back to moving forward" |
| 22:07:46 | AlexP | I wouldn't try and remove things, that'll just make it worse |
| 22:07:50 | [Saint] | <frowny face> |
| 22:08:00 | Llorean | kugel: "ml"? |
| 22:08:07 | AlexP | We will just postpone/whatever until it is stable(r) |
| 22:08:13 | [Saint] | Can we kickban for inappropriate part messages? ;) |
| 22:08:16 | kugel | Llorean: the few topics on the -dev ml |
| 22:08:19 | AlexP | Llorean: mailing list |
| 22:08:27 | gevaerts | kugel: that's a valid point |
| 22:08:30 | Llorean | Ah, I was thinking "ml" as a shortening of some feature name. |
| 22:08:49 | Llorean | So, for clarity, by "ml" you're referring to the disposition of the "system" menu, and the list spacing, or? |
| 22:09:08 | Llorean | [Saint]: It'd be hard to kick after they've left. ;) |
| 22:09:11 | kugel | all current topics |
| 22:09:37 | Zagor | are there more than those two "open"? |
| 22:09:37 | * | [Saint] starts more topics... |
| 22:09:40 | Llorean | Could you please just clarify in here, for the logs? So people don't have to go and look up mailing list archives, and try to figure out which you're calling "current"? |
| 22:09:48 | AlexP | Zagor: list spacing |
| 22:09:51 | bertrik | I'm pro-freeze, anti-revert and neutral w.r.t. ml issues |
| 22:09:51 | Llorean | Like I said, those are the only two immediately obvious to me. |
| 22:09:52 | AlexP | oh |
| 22:09:57 | kugel | fwiw, I would like to get the list separator patch in too. but i can see the desire for an early freeze |
| 22:09:58 | AlexP | Llorean mentioned that :) |
| 22:10:27 | gevaerts | Llorean: I agree that in general feature freezes aren't popular, but we're pretty unstable... |
| 22:10:30 | Llorean | I'd like to revert the playlist catalog changes, but that's mostly personal (and from the fact that it seems to be confusing at least one user upset enough to start posting about it in the forum) |
| 22:10:40 | AlexP | Yeah, pro-freeze, anti-revert, and lets get the mailing list stuff sorted one way or the other |
| 22:10:43 | AlexP | Then freeze |
| 22:10:52 | Llorean | I think we don't *need* to revert anything, but a freeze until everything we do have works would be very beneficial. |
| 22:11:00 | kugel | well, yes, there are currently two topics which deal with actual changes |
| 22:11:10 | kugel | so list spacing and sleep timer it is |
| 22:11:15 | [Saint] | "Works, and is documented " |
| 22:11:37 | AlexP | I don't think there was much argument about the actual sleep timer change as last proposed |
| 22:11:40 | gevaerts | I don't mind people touching "leaf" stuff, but anything that's in any way depended on by other stuff should be bugfixes only until we're in a releasable state again |
| 22:11:44 | Llorean | [Saint]: Documented too, yes. |
| 22:11:48 | AlexP | The argument was about menu renaming, which is another thing |
| 22:12:05 | * | [Saint] nods. |
| 22:12:12 | Zagor | gevaerts: oh, I'll just commit my major lcd code reshuffling then :) |
| 22:12:16 | [Saint] | The timer could have gone in lo.g ago. |
| 22:12:23 | [Saint] | *long ago |
| 22:12:24 | kugel | AlexP: another thing yes, still one I'd like to get resolved |
| 22:12:42 | gevaerts | Zagor: is voice stable these days? If so, go for it! :) |
| 22:12:56 | Zagor | hehe |
| 22:12:58 | AlexP | kugel: yeah, but one thing at a time :) |
| 22:13:17 | kugel | the t&d movement also |
| 22:13:28 | AlexP | From what I remember, the sleep timer change can go in as of the last patch, no? |
| 22:13:39 | Zagor | yes, there was no opposition to moving t&d |
| 22:13:45 | Llorean | Maybe we should open a page or document somewhere, where we organize the actual "freeze" issues? Things needing fixed, documented, or resolved in a clear categorical list? |
| 22:13:58 | AlexP | Llorean: good idea, well volunteered :) |
| 22:14:02 | amiconn | gevaerts: Unfortunately it isn't. Talk clips don't work atm on hwcodec; on swcodec they *sometimes* don't work |
| 22:14:05 | [Saint] | While there's still contention really: main menu layout and naming, I'd rather just the timer went in. It could have been comitted an age ago. |
| 22:14:38 | kugel | I learned "No reply" doesn't necessarily mean fine to go in :P |
| 22:14:44 | Llorean | AlexP: If we can bring this up in a mailing list discussion, so that I can do it without being around as much, then sure, I'll volunteer for that sort of thing. |
| 22:15:05 | AlexP | Can we send menu renaming to the RSB? |
| 22:15:10 | Llorean | Zagor: There was some objection to moving it if we didn't also resolve other complaints about the system menu at the same time, I think. |
| 22:15:20 | AlexP | If so, I guess we need to wait for the vote to finish |
| 22:15:28 | Llorean | AlexP: I'm pretty sure we mostly reached a compromise on it, I'm not sure RSB is needed. |
| 22:15:41 | AlexP | Llorean: heh, if you say so :) |
| 22:15:48 | AlexP | I just want the damn thing sorted |
| 22:16:02 | AlexP | What's the current sort of agreed upon compromise? |
| 22:16:09 | kugel | AlexP: are we that stuck on the renaming that the rsb is needed already? or do you want a quick decision for hte freeze? :) |
| 22:16:14 | Llorean | AlexP: I'm pretty sure that most people were okay with "remove top level system, move it into Settings->System" |
| 22:16:16 | * | kugel too slow |
| 22:16:23 | AlexP | OK, let's do that then |
| 22:16:33 | [Saint] | Llorean: that's what I thought too...sadly, we're mistaken. |
| 22:16:34 | Llorean | There was some "I'm not sure it's the *best* solution, but it's okay" type responses |
| 22:16:42 | AlexP | kugel: I clearly just remember us being more stuck than we are :) |
| 22:16:52 | [Saint] | I'd like it to go to rsb just to be fucking done with :) |
| 22:17:06 | Llorean | It's very definitely a compromise, it's certainly not everyone's favorite, but I think there was only one person strongly objecting, and he's promised not to get involved any more, so it should be okay |
| 22:17:22 | kugel | I don't think rockbox info, running time and credits should be in settings |
| 22:17:31 | [Saint] | He didn't promise that at all... |
| 22:17:40 | kugel | an "About" seems just the about perfect fit for those |
| 22:17:49 | [Saint] | He still wants things "done right". |
| 22:17:57 | Zagor | if it's jd you mean he recently said "Any patch which doesnt remove either settings or system from the top level should not be done." |
| 22:18:07 | amiconn | Imo nothing that is in 'System' is a setting of any kind |
| 22:18:15 | AlexP | Didn't he just tell us that he was out of here? |
| 22:18:23 | [Saint] | As should we all, he's just not actively "dev'ing" anymore. |
| 22:18:33 | kugel | AlexP: yah, but in reality he isn't :) |
| 22:18:34 | Zagor | nah, he just yanked his commit privileges :-) |
| 22:18:37 | amiconn | So it shouldn't go there. What's wrong with the System menu? |
| 22:18:46 | Llorean | [Saint]: "Â I also wont be getting involved in discussions" were his words. |
| 22:18:51 | AlexP | "Unlike other people who stopped actively contributing I also wont be getting involved in discussions because I simply don't care anymore." |
| 22:18:52 | [Saint] | He's still involved, see the ml. |
| 22:19:00 | AlexP | He can't have it both ways |
| 22:19:33 | [Saint] | Those words were rash...we know he loves the project. Just sick of bs. |
| 22:19:34 | n1s | wasn't the list spacing patch just for touchscreen? we don't have any such targets classified as "stable" so it shouldn't affect the release imo |
| 22:19:34 | kugel | AlexP: he alraedy accussed himself of being a "rotten lir" |
| 22:19:41 | Zagor | AlexP: I don't think we should worry about what anyone says about how much they will or won't contribute. let's just take what we get and work from there. |
| 22:19:57 | kugel | liar* |
| 22:20:12 | Llorean | My point was mostly, he's the only strong objector and he's said publicly he doesn't want his opinions to be part of "the discussion" at the moment. |
| 22:20:32 | [Saint] | kugel: I think you took that out of context, perhaps deliberately missing the humour of it for the sake of now? |
| 22:20:40 | Llorean | But for an even more compromise-ey solution, we can just move T&D into settings->system, and not touch anything else at all |
| 22:20:40 | AlexP | Zagor: Oh indeed - I was just coming from the angle that if the only dissenting person has said they are no longer part of it, then they are no longer dissenting |
| 22:20:52 | thomasjfox | ok, latest code is fine with valgrind. |
| 22:21:10 | kugel | [Saint]: no, he said that after uploading the icon-to-buflib patch, which is in fact a contribution |
| 22:21:15 | kugel | +to fs |
| 22:21:15 | [Saint] | Llorean: I agree. |
| 22:21:35 | Zagor | well I must admit I agree with amiconn it is quite strange to put debugging and credits into Settings |
| 22:21:35 | amiconn | thomasjfox: That just tells that this kind of tools isn't worth much. We obviously do have serious problems with latest code... |
| 22:21:37 | [Saint] | kugel: he never said he would post to fs. |
| 22:21:41 | n1s | thomasjfox: i've tried debugging some things in the sim with valgrind but it's never helped me, i think because we don't really use standard malloc and friends |
| 22:21:45 | [Saint] | *wouldn't |
| 22:22:09 | amiconn | I'm asking again: What's wrong with the current 'System' menu and its placement? |
| 22:22:20 | n1s | amiconn: valgrind is pretty damn useful for regular code not inventing its own memory management |
| 22:22:21 | * | amiconn doesn't want to wade through hundreds of mails... |
| 22:22:29 | Llorean | amiconn: We have two "System" menus, one "System settings" and one just "System" |
| 22:22:30 | AlexP | amiconn: I expect to find time and date settings and sleep timer settings in settings |
| 22:22:38 | Llorean | T&D involves a setting (setting their offset, setting the alarm) |
| 22:22:45 | Llorean | If you remove T&D from "System" it leaves "Debug" and "About" |
| 22:22:51 | Llorean | It's a very small menu for top-level placement |
| 22:22:51 | AlexP | But I agree that debug would be odd there |
| 22:22:59 | kugel | Zagor: yes, strange for rockbox info and running time too |
| 22:23:16 | [Saint] | He said he was a liar, in jest, for thinking no one had done anything with bufflib outside of the things he knew of. Then discovered that he had, and forgot about it. I think you missed the humour. |
| 22:23:19 | Llorean | In many devices, like an Android phone, the Settings menu also contains the "About" information |
| 22:23:27 | Llorean | It may not be strictly logical, but it's something users are used to seeing |
| 22:23:29 | AlexP | [Saint]: Can we just forget it |
| 22:23:36 | amiconn | AlexP: Time settings - agreeable (although it's quite special). Sleep timer - definitely not. It's a function, not a setting |
| 22:23:46 | AlexP | amiconn: I set the sleep timer |
| 22:24:05 | amiconn | You set and start it |
| 22:24:17 | Llorean | For now, just move T&D and add the new features. |
| 22:24:17 | AlexP | See, this is why I said there wasn't an agreement |
| 22:24:21 | amiconn | Nothing in 'settings' starts an action |
| 22:24:27 | Llorean | Everything else can be hammered out in the global menu restructuring that will never happen anyway |
| 22:24:28 | kugel | it's a setting too, with the persistent timer patch anyway |
| 22:24:48 | amiconn | Then the persistent value is a setting, but starting the timer isn't |
| 22:24:54 | Llorean | amiconn: "Repeat", "Shuffle" and "Folder Advance" set actions to occur in the future. |
| 22:25:00 | kugel | being too nit-picky with the definitions doesn't get us anywhere too |
| 22:25:03 | Llorean | A sleep timer, or an alarm, are also actions to occur in the future. |
| 22:25:14 | amiconn | Llorean: They set a behaviour, they don'tz trigger actions |
| 22:25:22 | AlexP | This is being too technical |
| 22:25:30 | amiconn | We can have settings reachable from more than one place, in fact we already have that (recording...) |
| 22:25:55 | [Saint] | And many other instances. |
| 22:26:12 | amiconn | My suggestion would be to leave everything where it is atm, put the sleep timer settings in Settings/ and also make it reachable from the sleep timer screen |
| 22:26:22 | Zagor | I think the Android settings menu is a useful examples. it contains loads of stuff, including a wifi scanner and application browser. |
| 22:26:28 | kugel | amiconn: what sleep timer screen? |
| 22:26:33 | kugel | there's no such thing |
| 22:26:48 | amiconn | Well the function to start it |
| 22:26:48 | Zagor | with that in mind, I won't object to moving System to Settings/About or some such |
| 22:27:03 | Llorean | Zagor: To me, nontechnical users expect "Settings" to have bunches of stuff in it that may or may not be settings, but allow them to "configure" the device to their tastes and or manage it somewhat |
| 22:27:26 | AlexP | I agree |
| 22:27:31 | kugel | Zagor: right. but I don't see a need to move the entire thing. unless we need one item less in the main menu? |
| 22:27:34 | Zagor | Llorean: yes |
| 22:27:45 | Zagor | kugel: wasn't that part of the idea? |
| 22:27:46 | Llorean | One could also simply name the whole menu "System", honestly, it's personal preference that the top be 'Settings' because I see it called that more often (or feel like I do, I've done no study on this) |
| 22:27:54 | AlexP | So then in the light of us not agreeing... |
| 22:27:59 | kugel | that said, I won't object strongly against such a change |
| 22:28:10 | kugel | Zagor: don't know, it's not my proposal :) |
| 22:28:27 | Llorean | So move the current "System" into Settings, renamed as "About", and make T&D accessible somewhere in there, with the new features? |
| 22:28:31 | amiconn | Zagor: With this kind of reasoning you could move everything into "Settings" - file browser, database, wps, ... |
| 22:28:41 | kugel | I just jumped on the "About" menu bandwagon which I still prefer |
| 22:28:59 | | Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) |
| 22:29:18 | amiconn | And debug stuff, runtime, about, rockbox info are definitely not settings |
| 22:29:20 | n1s | to mee this is basically that last time we discussed this and anything was done with it it was decided that t&d was not a setting or at least noone objected too much this time it apparently is a setting, i don't care which, who actually changes this stuff often enough to care? |
| 22:30:11 | amiconn | Time& date? At least twice a year, on some devices more often due to drift, or completely empty batteries |
| 22:30:17 | kugel | Zagor: I can't recall the reasoning for that proposal being explained anywhere, actually |
| 22:30:42 | amiconn | Set time & date can be considered a setting, even if it's quite special, or not, I don't care either way |
| 22:31:06 | amiconn | But the other stuff definitely isn't - that includes starting the sleep timer |
| 22:31:33 | Zagor | so let's call everything "System" instead |
| 22:31:39 | AlexP | Fine by me |
| 22:31:42 | amiconn | Eh? |
| 22:31:43 | kugel | amiconn: the sleep timer is remembered with the other patch (and it gets an "auto apply on boot" setting), that makes it a definite setting |
| 22:32:04 | amiconn | The sleep timer setting is a setting, starting it is not |
| 22:32:09 | kugel | Zagor: that was also propsed somewhere |
| 22:32:36 | Zagor | amiconn: yes, but being to strict about definitions lands us with too many sections |
| 22:32:45 | kugel | it's unfortuantely a lot of bike shedding involved in this topic it seems |
| 22:32:55 | AlexP | amiconn: Splitting one thing into two places for the sake of a strict definition is utterly confusing |
| 22:32:57 | amiconn | Why? We don't need more setions than we currently have |
| 22:32:58 | [Saint] | I still have the Google doc: people with layout proposals, look, add, comment. |
| 22:33:02 | [Saint] | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HP7_TmvNdTlyHUdhmMzDRhK8MMcdOZuL6oDT−−1UMLs/edit?hl=en_US |
| 22:33:39 | amiconn | AlexP: We do have recording settings in "Settings", and we also do have them reachable directly from teh recording screen. Imo that's not confusing, but rather convenient |
| 22:33:42 | [Saint] | That has a few layouts in it, others should add theirs, with comments as to why its ideal. |
| 22:34:46 | | Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 22:34:56 | | Quit n1s (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:35:01 | AlexP | amiconn: Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong, you want to put one bit of the sleep timer (setting it) into settings, and another part (starting it) into system, which to me is very confusing |
| 22:35:51 | amiconn | I want to put the setting in "Settings", and the function to start it *and* a shortcut to the respective setting in "System" |
| 22:36:02 | | Join Jerom [0] (~jerome@79.132.42.48) |
| 22:36:51 | amiconn | I.e. basically the same as with recording (just that the sleep timer doesn't have a separate screen, so the start function needs a menu item) |
| 22:36:52 | | Join matze` [0] (~pflaume@p5498D47C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:37:39 | AlexP | If I went into settings and found the sleep timer settings (where I would expect them to be), I then would be hugely confused as to how to start it |
| 22:37:55 | AlexP | And not expect I'd have to come back out into a different location to do so |
| 22:38:01 | | Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) |
| 22:38:38 | amiconn | And if you went to settings and found the recording settings you are also confused as how to actually start recording? |
| 22:38:56 | | Quit matze` (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:39:06 | Llorean | amiconn: So by that analogy the top level menu item should be called "Sleep timer" |
| 22:39:11 | AlexP | No, as there is a big obvious "Recording" thing in the main menu |
| 22:39:14 | Llorean | Rather than "System" or "About" |
| 22:39:26 | kugelp | fwiw, i don't think the setting-function split is made up and didn't exist when system was introduced |
| 22:39:29 | kugelp | do* |
| 22:40:07 | amiconn | Llorean: Why not? |
| 22:41:10 | amiconn | Of course not "rather than", but "in addition to" |
| 22:42:02 | amiconn | We already do have functions in the main menu I never or almost never use, like "Recent bookmarks" and "Playlist catalog" |
| 22:43:31 | | Join keyb_gr [0] (~chatzilla@p4FF05E59.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:45:22 | [Saint] | The former is optional....so a poor choice. |
| 22:47:41 | kugelp | so, no consensus on that topic :-( |
| 22:47:49 | | Quit ChickeNE_ (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) |
| 22:47:59 | AlexP | kugelp: See, what did I say! |
| 22:48:31 | | Join liar [0] (~liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at) |
| 22:48:49 | kugelp | we lose ourselves in technicalies |
| 22:48:55 | Llorean | I don't know that a consensus is ever necessary. |
| 22:49:29 | Llorean | There are a few different solutions that seem to be, if not ideal, acceptable to *most* of us, and probably easier for users to use. |
| 22:52:08 | * | Zagor adds a proposal to [Saint]'s ever-growing list... |
| 22:53:11 | [Saint] | Zagor: thanks. I believe it helps to visualize the nebulous structure. |
| 22:55:00 | | Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@eng261.wireless-resnet.upenn.edu) |
| 22:55:45 | [Saint] | kugelp: Llorean: amiconn: others: Please add your proposed menu layout if you haven't already done so. |
| 22:56:04 | AlexP | I agree with Zagor's |
| 22:56:04 | kugelp | [Saint]: well, my only proposal is system->about |
| 22:57:05 | amiconn | My proposed layout is "no change", so not really something to add... |
| 22:57:23 | [Saint] | Well, it'd still be good to list it there. As well as comments on why the other proposals don't work for you, and why you're does. |
| 22:57:31 | [Saint] | *yours |
| 22:57:41 | AlexP | [Saint]: Do you just want different ones here, and then there is a vote afterwards, or should I add that my proposal is to agree with Zagor? |
| 22:58:05 | kugelp | AlexP: did you notice it has database first? |
| 22:58:11 | kugelp | :) |
| 22:58:31 | AlexP | kugelp: Yeah, I don't care much about that |
| 22:58:49 | AlexP | I think that people who use it are wrong, but accept that many do :) |
| 22:58:55 | amiconn | I *could* live with [Saint]'s layout #2, as the settings sub-sections all have "settings" as part of their name |
| 22:59:11 | kugelp | I think we shouldnt do reordering in the main menu |
| 22:59:20 | amiconn | That said, as a new user I wouldn't expect to find the settings in System/ |
| 22:59:26 | kugelp | since you can't please everyone, but only put off existing users |
| 22:59:30 | [Saint] | AlexP: if your ideal layout isn't already listed, then I'd like it to be. |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:01 | | Quit thomasjfox (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:01:05 | Zagor | amiconn: surely with that set of top-menu items, system would be the first place to look? |
| 23:01:50 | amiconn | After some guessing, maybe (probably...) |
| 23:02:04 | AlexP | [Saint]: Well, OK - I just swapped files and database in Zagor's, but said that I don't care that much and would be happy with his too |
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| 23:02:17 | kugelp | AlexP: haha |
| 23:02:32 | AlexP | :) |
| 23:03:16 | Zagor | I thought the triplet Files - Playlists - Bookmarks had a nice look to it :) |
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| 23:10:04 | kugelp | perhaps no change is the best, we don't seem to be able to agree on something |
| 23:10:10 | kugelp | :'( |
| 23:10:48 | Zagor | I wouldn't say that. amiconn just agreed that he could live with settings under "System" as long as they are clearly labeled settings. |
| 23:11:55 | Zagor | what other points on conflict did we have? |
| 23:12:07 | Zagor | points *of* conflict |
| 23:12:20 | * | AlexP votes that Zagor just does it :) |
| 23:12:26 | kugelp | well, I don't necessarily agree with merging system and settings, but I won't object either |
| 23:12:51 | kugelp | I guess that means my system->about rename isn't going to happen |
| 23:13:26 | Zagor | I think it's better to get one item less in the top menu |
| 23:13:28 | bertrik | I like Zagor's proposal, but I also like my debug menu :) |
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| 23:13:57 | Zagor | bertrik: yeah, the hiding of that isn't a strong point in my proposal |
| 23:13:58 | kugelp | I'm still on the opinion that we shouldn't do further changes such as re-ordering |
| 23:14:23 | Zagor | kugelp: while we're unstable, or never? |
| 23:14:34 | kugelp | never |
| 23:14:44 | Zagor | whoa. why not? |
| 23:15:04 | kugelp | there's no best order, and we have so many users (and ourselves) that are used to the current layout |
| 23:15:47 | kugelp | IMO the order isn't wrong in a way that needs fixing |
| 23:16:06 | kugelp | (which puts off existing users) |
| 23:16:20 | | Quit Keripo (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:16:52 | Zagor | then why did you want to rename System? |
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| 23:17:54 | kugelp | it's the same function. you recognize it's renamed, but you don't need to get used to a new layout |
| 23:18:37 | kugelp | re-ordering will make the keystrokes people now know by heart wrong |
| 23:18:54 | Zagor | I think it's the same thing. either our menu is locked in stone forever, or we're free to improve in ways we agree are better. |
| 23:19:20 | Zagor | however I'll agree you have a point that we're not exactly having a *horrible* menu order today |
| 23:19:46 | Zagor | and change for changes sake can be bad. especially if it needlessly hurts the user experience |
| 23:20:41 | Zagor | but since our code and UI is evolved rather than designed, we might want to take a step back and refactor some things now and again |
| 23:22:21 | kugelp | the main menu is one of the least-bad parts of our UI |
| 23:23:21 | kugelp | I don't care a lot for the ordering in the main menu, however I don't think there's one layout that's best for everyone, and I don't think the current layout needs fixing |
| 23:24:19 | kugelp | s/layout/ordering/ |
| 23:25:58 | kugelp | while I can see the benefit of one item less, I can't see the benefit of e.g. swapping playlists and resume playback |
| 23:26:29 | Zagor | another point could be that if there is ever a good time to optimise our menu structure, I think just before introducing Rockbox to several million new users would be it |
| 23:28:09 | Zagor | kugelp: my thinking was that the top four items are content access functions. that's where you go to find the things you want to play. after that comes resume, which is what you want after you've already selected what to play. and then comes the "utility" functions, followed by System at the end |
| 23:28:48 | kugelp | I think there are many worse areas. like the possible menu depth in general settings, or the less-than-clear separation between playback and sound settings |
| 23:29:26 | Zagor | I don't see how that is an argument in *this* discussion. we don't have just one change to spend. |
| 23:29:46 | kugelp | just saying |
| 23:29:54 | | Quit [Saint] (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:29:58 | Zagor | there is lots to do everywhere. we don't normally balance one change against another. |
| 23:30:47 | bertrik | Can't we also get rid of "resume playback"? |
| 23:31:00 | Zagor | can we? |
| 23:32:53 | kugelp | no, we cant :) |
| 23:32:55 | bertrik | It feels a bit odd to me in the main menu, being dedicated to only one function |
| 23:33:15 | bertrik | targets with a dedicated "play" button can just use that button |
| 23:33:23 | AlexP | There are those without |
| 23:33:26 | kugelp | that button isnt doing the same |
| 23:33:26 | AlexP | e.g. android |
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| 23:33:53 | gevaerts | AlexP: android may have playback buttons on the sbs |
| 23:33:53 | kugelp | the button goes to "last music", resume playback goes to wps specifically |
| 23:34:05 | Zagor | I think that would be a rather big change in our UI. we've literally always had that option. |
| 23:34:15 | AlexP | gevaerts: oh, true |
| 23:34:32 | gevaerts | Of course, that's still just "may" at this point :) |
| 23:37:02 | Zagor | there are targets, admittedly very old ones, that don't have enough buttons to live without that item |
| 23:37:11 | Zagor | so it'd have to be conditional, at least |
| 23:45:11 | | Quit bertrik (Quit: And That, My Liege, Is How We Know the Earth to Be Banana Shaped) |
| 23:47:52 | * | Zagor makes quite a mess in the lcd code :-) |
| 23:48:50 | kugelp | Zagor: what are you working on? |
| 23:49:05 | Zagor | a percent coordinate test |
| 23:50:04 | Zagor | injecting a translation layer above the lcd functions |
| 23:50:31 | kugelp | ah, interesting |
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| 23:57:11 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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