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#rockbox log for 2011-10-16

00:02:18 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
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00:39:12 Part Zagor
00:51:55Tornebertrik: oh well. i shall try it on ipodvideo when i have a few, if we can at least support that it would be a start
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01:59:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:25:19KiwiCamUnhelpful: It's already there. I created a forum thread for comments and someone was having issues seeing the bitmaps. I was thinking that it was something they hadn't done, but to double check would like another clip user to confirm it works for them.
02:25:47UnhelpfulKiwiCam: oh... hm, funny, the site is supposed to verify pretty well.
02:26:46KiwiCamUnhelpful: It did verify it. I'm just being paranoid that there's something I've done wrong. :)
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02:38:13KiwiCamUnhelpful: OK. Being that the site verified it, Ill just assume that the person downloading the theme did something wrong. Thanks.
02:40:02*KiwiCam is away: Oh look! What's that over there...
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05:58:54ztcptxm1bxHi. Is it possible to remove completely the original firmware from my Sansa e200 ? I don't need it for anything anymore
05:59:12 Join Rob2222 [0] (
05:59:16ztcptxm1bxI googled it, but I only found people trying to remove rockbox instead
05:59:39tmztI've heard it's possible on old iPods based on the same chip
05:59:48tmzthaven't seen anybody do it for the e2xxv1
05:59:56tmzter, is it v1 or v2
05:59:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:00:15 Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@unaffiliated/saint/x-8516940)
06:01:22LloreanThere's generally not much reason to need to remove the original firmware.
06:02:21ztcptxm1bxit's v1
06:02:42ztcptxm1bxI don't know how much space it takes up
06:02:57ztcptxm1bxthats why i wanted to remove ir
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06:04:14[Saint]It takes up no space you can use of you remove it.
06:04:23[Saint]*if you
06:04:40ztcptxm1bxI see
06:06:45ztcptxm1bxthank you all
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07:49:41*KiwiCam is away: Oh look! What's that over there...
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08:15:14FloraFaunaHey, I have an iPod Classic (the newest model), and I was wondering if there was any way to dual boot the original OS on it with Rockbox?
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09:10:47KiwiCamIs it possible for the Skin Usage size on the Clip to be increased? Currently, it's 49.0KB. Is this a physical constraint? If I could have 100KB, I reckon I could do magic on that thing. Themewize. I'd settle for 60KB ;)
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09:31:17[Saint]It was...but, then it was reverted.
09:31:34[Saint]...but, I'm biased to that situation, so I won't discuss it.
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09:33:06[Saint]KiwiCam: I also responded to your theme editor issue on the forum, in case you've not sen it yet.
09:33:14[Saint]*seen it
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09:40:38[Saint]KiwiCam: If you would be content to revert to a build from approximately a fortnight ago, and then keep maintaining a patch in your own could set the skin buffer to (theoretically) as much as you want to.
09:40:48[Saint](stealing from the audio buffer)
09:41:12[Saint]Steal too much and audio will be hopeless, though ;)
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09:48:01*[Saint] wonders whats happening about FS #12320 & Friends
09:48:02fs-bluebot need substitute to /.rockbox/skin_buffer_size.txt (bugs, unconfirmed)
09:49:38[Saint]I know the implementation wasn't liked with Jd's patch for this regression...but I kinda wished that (as it was an issue with implementation, not the feature) that the implementation would be reverted...and not the entire feature.
09:50:01[Saint]Even if it wasn't liked, it still allowed themes that worked previously to continue to work.
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09:53:50JdGordon[Saint]: noone can be bothered working on the only real fix
09:56:18[Saint]reverting back to pre-bufflib and starting again? :P
09:56:25[Saint]</joking> (....half)
09:56:52JdGordonno, putting one of the important structs onto buflib
09:57:21JdGordonI've said exactly what needs to be done on the dev-ml... but i have no motivation at all to do it and noone else seems keen
09:59:03[Saint]In all seriousness, its probably one of the least important bugs that's crept in lately. But, I (personally) find regressions less tolerable than new issues of unknown origin.
10:00:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:02:58KiwiCam[Saint]: I've just posted an answer. I feel like saying, could I? could I really? with a big cheesy smile, but I wouldn't know where to start, and besides, if it can be done, shouldn't all Rockbox users get the benefit? I'm going to go to the lounge and watch the game. Fuck. This'll be a game.
10:03:27JdGordongo wallabies!
10:04:43[Saint]KiwiCam: Its a nasty regression that no one feels like handling...
10:05:33[Saint]The fix for it was reverted because its implementation was (to some, most(?)) questionable, but the feautre itself actually wasn't.
10:06:30[Saint]For now, the only fix would be to do your own builds with the inclusion of the reverted commit.
10:06:54[Saint]...or use a dated build.
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10:08:01JdGordonits not a nasty regression at all!
10:08:59[Saint]I see it as a used to "just work", in comes <commit>, it no longer is that not a regression?
10:09:10JdGordonit sure isnt *nasty*
10:09:40[Saint]It is to themers.
10:10:34JdGordonthe question is why does the clip have a small buffer compared to the other targets
10:10:49LloreanHow much smaller is it than, say, the AJBR?
10:11:00LloreanOr the H100's remote?
10:12:03LloreanI thought there used to be some sort of formula used (based on width, height, and mono vs color) for deciding size?
10:14:29LloreanKiwiCam: What are you using up the space on? Are you using properly mono bitmaps, or are you saving them as 16-bit but only using black & white?
10:27:57Kiwi_CAMLlorean: I hope I am. I need the space. I use The GIMP and that tells me they're Indexed 2 Color.
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10:29:25[Saint]Well, if the gimp is getting it need to beat him more.
10:31:17LloreanA 500x500 mono bitmap is only about 30k
10:31:17JdGordonthe on disk bmp format makes no difference to the loaded image size
10:31:26LloreanThat's 250,000 pixels.
10:31:42LloreanJdGordon: Mono and color bitmaps used to be stored differently in RAM didn't they?
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10:33:14Kiwi_CAM[Saint]: The Masochist said to the Sadist "Hit me." The sadist said "No!" Don't mention the score please. Community is fine. If I switch to there, that'll be my own fault.
10:37:19Kiwi_CAMLlorean: I have one that's 40 x 95 It's 43.9KB How should I save that to make it smaller?
10:38:06LloreanI don't know, as I don't know the gimp.
10:38:19LloreanIt needs to be 1bpp
10:39:25Kiwi_CAMSo, can you suggest another Linux alternative? (Score!!!! MANG!!)
10:40:24LloreanNot really. I would assume there's a way to do it in The GIMP because it'd be silly if there wasn't.
10:40:51LloreanI'm on a windows computer right now, so I just tested in paint using a method I've used in the past to create mono bitmaps for Rockbox.
10:40:56LloreanThe _far_ past, but still.
10:41:08LloreanIf paint can do something The GIMP can't, I'd be rather shocked.
10:42:57[Saint]Does it *actually* matter if its *not* 1bpp?
10:43:04[Saint]I didn't think it did.
10:43:26Llorean[Saint]: They used to be handled differently. They were stored in their own format in memory.
10:43:38Kiwi_CAMWhat's supposed to be the correct format? What size do you get if you save a 40 x 95 with Paint?
10:43:44[Saint]as long as correct "magic colours" are used, it "just works" I thought.
10:43:57Llorean[Saint]: 1bpp don't use magic colors
10:44:16[Saint]right, bad wording.
10:44:17Llorean1 = draw "foreground color" (same as the font color), 0 = "draw background color/image"
10:45:05LloreanKiwi_CAM: 0.8 KB
10:45:48Llorean[Saint]: Mono bitmaps were treated differently. They can't *not* be transparent. Or didn't used to be able to be. They use significantly less RAM, or again, used to.
10:46:02Kiwi_CAM2 color indexed. What about RGB? I can't find the setting in GIMP.
10:47:15[Saint]Llorean: Right, it was bad wording. by "magic colours" in this case I didn't mean our transparency colour, but rather "only the colours that are actually used" (in this case only black/white, no?)
10:47:20Kiwi_CAMLlorean: Holly SHit! I could do miracles, with bitmaps that small. 40 x 95??? Fuck Linux! I'm shifting to Windows! Ha.
10:47:45[Saint]Kiwi_CAM: its *not* a Windows/Linux thing ;)
10:48:16[Saint]I'm also not convinced that the image type has any effect on the skin ram usage...but may be wrong.
10:48:17Kiwi_CAMSurely there must be a Clip themer here who can help a poor man out? Giz a dime Guvnor?
10:48:17Llorean[Saint]: If the file is a 24-bit bitmap, and only black and white are used, Rockbox still sees the header of a color bitmap.
10:48:48Kiwi_CAM[Saint]: As if I would. I may be a hussy, but I'm not a whore.
10:49:23[Saint]...wait, what? Linux is for whores? ....Awesome.
10:49:49Llorean[Saint]: Try a 24-bit bitmap only using black and white. White will draw as "white" rather than the background color, and black will draw as "black" rather than the foreground color. Now do it with a proper 1bpp bitmap. You can't get black *or* white unless they're set as the actual foreground and background color in settings.
10:49:53Kiwi_CAMLlorean: So what's the Skin Ram usage for? I'm constantly pushing 49KB.
10:50:26LloreanKiwi_CAM: I don't understand what you're asking. It indicates how much RAM the skin is using, as far as I know.
10:50:43JdGordonKiwi_CAM: the images dont load into the skin buffer so their size makes no difference at all
10:51:11JdGordonthe problem is that an internal structure the skin needs is too big for the clips skin buffer
10:51:20JdGordonthere is literally nothing you can do about it
10:51:34JdGordonunless you do a custom build, or fix the underlying issue
10:53:42Kiwi_CAMOK. I'm not familiar with the terminology. It just comes down tobeing able to do stuff on the Sim, and not on the actual device. I guess that every time I look at the Rockbox Info, Skin Usage is always high when I'm having theme issues and I think the coding is right.
10:53:56JdGordon[Saint]: do you tihnk that with my database folder chooser, the .ignore/.unignore system can be removed completly? i.e having a .unignore reall makes no sense?
10:54:25Kiwi_CAMI'll work out how to reduce the bitmap sizes. That's all I need. Thanks for you patience guys.
10:54:33JdGordonthat wont fix your problem
10:54:56JdGordoncan anyone actually come up with a folder sturcture which makes a .unignore file sensible?
10:55:49[Saint], but it makes it easier to include the root of a dir and exclude individual folders doesn't it?
10:56:30JdGordonif by default / isnt checked though, when would that make sense?
10:56:40LloreanJdGordon: Go back to the discussion where it was added. I can't think of one, but I think there was one, which is what led to adding it.
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10:57:13LloreanThe only ones I can think of are pretty contrived.
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10:59:10[Saint]It makes sense if the entire fs is being walked, but if there's a "scan here, here and here" list, its totally useless I _think_
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11:00:25JdGordonthats what I'm tihnking too
11:00:39*JdGordon is pretty damn impressed with this ui :)
11:01:34LloreanWith the UI would it be possible for me to say "scan /audio, but not /audio/spoken_word except /audio/spoken_word/podcasts" ?
11:02:03LloreanOne of the strongest features of the database to me is the ability for it to essentially instantly create playlists via its queries so I could quickly get "unheard podcasts"
11:02:22LloreanBut at the same time, I don't want it grabbing the audiobooks that may be parallel to them in my folder structure.
11:03:23[Saint]Llorean: Isn't that possible now?
11:03:38[Saint]with .ignore/.unignore?
11:04:01Llorean[Saint]: Yes, it is. And he was asking if there's something you'd need unignore for, which is why I was wondering if his UI would remove the ability to do that.
11:04:26[Saint] it wouldn't. You know VLC's UI?
11:04:28[Saint]think of that.
11:04:40LloreanI don't know VLC's UI.
11:04:53[Saint]You're including each and every folder you want scanned.
11:05:00LloreanAnd if it can do 100% of what .unignore could do, why is he asking the question about it?
11:05:06[Saint]if its not "ticked/selected", its not scanned.
11:05:24LloreanSo I'd have to select every single album individually, rather than just the parent "music" folder?
11:06:06[Saint]If you didn't want every dir in the parent dir scanned, I believe so.
11:06:37LloreanThat sounds like a headache compared to just being able to say "scan audio, except /spoken_word, except /podcasts"
11:06:45[Saint]And he was asking "If we have a list of dirs to scan, do we need a list of dirs to *not* scan"
11:07:28LloreanNow if the selection just *selected* all subfolders, and then I could unselect "spoken_word" then re-select "podcasts" beneath that, it'd be find.
11:07:41LloreanSo rather than having the scan recursive, have the selection recursive.
11:07:49LloreanEr, fine, not find
11:08:01LloreanThat'd cause a problem with new folders, though
11:08:09[Saint]Apparently my explanation was...lacking.
11:08:15[Saint]it should work like this, yes.
11:08:31[Saint]I didn't mean to say you'd actually need to manually select each dir.
11:08:54JdGordonif you have one folder amonsgt *many* that you dont want scanned, it probaly is placed in the filesystem bdly anyway
11:08:58[Saint]afaik, all children of the parent are automatically selected.
11:09:09JdGordonerr no
11:09:15JdGordontry the damn patch :)
11:09:38LloreanSo it sounds like you're removing existing functionality (the ability to exclude a folder) without a replacement for it.
11:10:17*[Saint] doesn't see how....but, ok.
11:10:46Llorean[Saint]: If it scans subfolders, how do you exclude one?
11:10:56JdGordon1st "ok" on a directory expands it (all children unselected), 2nd press collapses and selects the dir, 3rd press unselects
11:11:02LloreanIf it *doesn't* scan subfolders until you select them, how do you add a new folder to the device and get it scanned without re-running the selector?
11:11:15JdGordonI'll either add a 4th press in there to select al children, or move that to a context menu
11:11:36JdGordonal children of a selected folder are scanned
11:11:39[Saint]JdGordon: Adding all children auto-magically is probably "better"
11:12:19LloreanAdding all children isn't necessary if it scans subfolders. And if it *doesn't* scan subfolders, will require the selector to be run on every sync that adds new folders, which is even worse.
11:13:52[Saint]I'm confusing myself...I need to actually use this, before commenting. Its just speculation otherwise.
11:13:59[Saint]Maybe you should too, Llorean ?
11:14:00JdGordonyes! :)
11:14:33Llorean[Saint]: I don't know. If he'd answer a couple yes-no questions, everything I'm curious about would be resolved.
11:14:52LloreanIn fact, *one* question - "can you exclude a subfolder whose parent is included in the scan?"
11:15:44[Saint]Without even trying it...just having briefly looked at the code, I'll say "yes" it'd be pretty fucking stupid if you couldn't.
11:16:15Llorean[Saint]: Yet he keeps saying things that suggest you may not be able to. Like saying that if you needed it, you've probably put your folders in the wrong place.
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11:16:32Llorean[Saint]: Since he seems to have me on ignore, could you ask him the question for me?
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11:37:33*Llorean wonders what would be the point of even trying the patch, if the author has him on ignore, anyway.
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12:00:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:40:37JdGordonhow does the databases tempbuf not crash?
12:41:12JdGordoncore_alloc_maximum() without ops on a different thread with lots of disk activity?!
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12:43:15JdGordonkugel: worded better, why is tagcache's tempbuf handle not given shrink and move callbacks?
12:43:21JdGordonam i misreading the code?
12:44:08kugelit worked with direct audiobuf use before
12:45:36JdGordonI see no safety mechanism in the code.. either im missing it, or the fact it works is a miracle?
12:46:51JdGordonhow does buflib allocate if a handle has max size?
12:47:52JdGordonif it shrinks on the end then it makes sense (that it was lucky) that its data doesnt get overwritten
12:51:09JdGordonwhy is there a sleep(HZ/2) on hosted builds?
12:51:18JdGordonafter tagcache_init()
12:52:54kugelit worked without protection means before
12:53:23JdGordonyes, I get that, I'm wondering how it is possible that it does/did work
12:53:30JdGordonthere must be some safeguard somewhere
12:54:30JdGordonmaybe it is just lucky with the threading
12:55:20kugelJdGordon: I think root_menu polls for tagcache readiness
12:55:45JdGordonyeah, but that happens after quite a lot of init-ing
13:00:00JdGordonpretty much, im looking into how to store the folder list so the database.txt file is only read once, but if i put it on buflib right now I'm confident tagcache will break
13:05:32JdGordonhow do i use the shrink callback if i only want to allow it to shrink from the end?
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13:11:20kugelJdGordon: the tempbuf us only used at boot
13:12:32kugelbuflib decides where it wants to shrink. but it says where in the hints
13:12:47JdGordonit is also used if dircache isnt enable i think
13:13:32kugelif It's only a short lived tempbuf you could disallow moving and shrinking
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13:13:38JdGordonand it is used in a different thread to main() on boot, so in theory with the right conditions alot of allocs can happen while it is commiting the db
13:13:50kugelno, only at boot when I looked at it
13:14:46kugelthe main thread polls tagcache, and other threads don't really allocate
13:15:35JdGordonOH, thats what stops it
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13:23:18JdGordonI'm not sure how this works, but ok, it does.. I can proably use the plugin buffer safely then
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15:08:55psirusZKhey, iíve just completed a battery runtime test for the ipod 6g, do you want the results added to the wiki?
15:18:48CIA-14New commit by fredwbauer (r30760): FS:12299 Font glyph cache is no longer saved. Each font will now have its own glyph cache file with the extension '.gc' Includes a temporary fix that ...
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15:21:25CIA-14r30760 build result: 0 errors, 99 warnings (fredwbauer committed)
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15:22:09JdGordonfreddyb: woo! all the font bugs done now?
15:24:09freddybMostly :)
15:28:46CIA-14New commit by fredwbauer (r30761): Fix Yellow: missing proto
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15:31:00CIA-14r30761 build result: All green
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16:01:39Buschelfreddyb: thanks for fixing the font issues
16:02:14freddybBuschel: thanks for testing a million things that didn't work
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16:04:23*Buschel will now test how his nano2g behaves after all of those fixes
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16:09:48pamauryarg, why isn't usb working on my fuze+ anymore ! I didn't see any usb related change recently
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16:12:52Buschelmy nano 2G freezes when it is connected via USB during playback. when connecting USB right after startup I have no isssues
16:13:45Buschelsee FS #12310
16:13:45fs-bluebot USB crash when inserting USB while playback (bugs, new)
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16:17:37pamauryhum, I can't make the DAC dma work on the fuze+, but audio seems to work in pio mode
16:24:58Buschelkugel: will you submit FS #12320 ?
16:24:59fs-bluebot need substitute to /.rockbox/skin_buffer_size.txt (bugs, unconfirmed)
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16:31:05*[Saint] hopes not.
16:31:32[Saint]I see that as less of a viable solution than that which was reverted.
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16:34:58Buschelwell, for me simple parameter change is reasonable to fix such issues until there is sophisticated solution implemented
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16:35:45Buschelbut I am more concerned about other trunk issues right now
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17:55:14CIA-14New commit by kugel (r30762): Fix FS #12320 - need substitute to /.rockbox/skin_buffer_size.txt ...
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17:57:22CIA-14r30762 build result: All green
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17:59:20kugelI commit the my other patches tomorrow, hopefully
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18:04:56kugeluhm, that delta surprises me
18:05:34kugelI guess the struct reording was only effective on arm
18:05:51kugeldue to small enums
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21:10:53bertrikhow much work is it to release a new rbutil?
21:12:13bertrikI'm asking because someone has a problem patching the latest clip+ firmware. The fix is already in SVN, but not in the release rbutil yet:,29043.0.html
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22:17:46CIA-14New commit by fredwbauer (r30763): font_cache.c: Optimize and simplify cache search. ~25% font rendering boost
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22:20:07CIA-14r30763 build result: 0 errors, 139 warnings (fredwbauer committed)
22:29:59CIA-14New commit by fredwbauer (r30764): Update convbdf.c for previous change
22:31:48CIA-14r30764 build result: All green
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23:32:23saratoga_Bertrik: might be a good idea to add clip zip support as well in the next release
23:32:50saratoga_so that we don't have to do another release just to enable that
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23:54:05bertriksaratoga, still waiting for the clip zip to arrive :\ so I haven't been able to test anything about the clip zip dualbootloader/firmware patching
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23:55:15saratoga_i should have just bought you one :(
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