| 00:00:04 | semitones | saratoga: i dd'd the entire disk to a file and md5'ed that |
| 00:05:18 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 00:09:38 | saratoga | and that matched the md5 from the sandisk firmware? |
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| 00:24:01 | semitones | saratoga: no, because it is bigger than the firmware file |
| 00:24:09 | saratoga | yeah |
| 00:24:14 | saratoga | so how were you comparing? |
| 00:24:36 | | Quit bertrik (Quit: And That, My Liege, Is How We Know the Earth to Be Banana Shaped) |
| 00:25:03 | semitones | saratoga: I was comparing the disk after I dd'd the OF to it, and after I turned it off and on again. |
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| 00:25:20 | semitones | and again after I dd'd /dev/null and then the OF |
| 00:25:36 | saratoga | did you check that the disk actually contained the firmware? |
| 00:25:51 | semitones | saratoga: no. I don't know how I would do that |
| 00:26:12 | saratoga | write the OF and then read it back after a reboot |
| 00:26:16 | saratoga | see if its the same |
| 00:26:26 | semitones | saratoga: I did that |
| 00:26:29 | semitones | it was the same |
| 00:26:46 | saratoga | what did you do? |
| 00:27:50 | | Quit ender` (Quit: Our chances of being caught by the RIAA or IFPI are somewhat less than being hit by lightning - or choking on a wasabi-flavoured peanut. -- TheRegister) |
| 00:28:21 | semitones | dd'd the OF to the disk. md5 the disk. reboot. md5 the disk. they were the same |
| 00:28:47 | semitones | by md5 the disk, i mean I dd'd the whole disk to a file and md5'ed that |
| 00:29:02 | saratoga | what i'm suggesting is that you check that what youv'e read back actually contains the file you wrote to it |
| 00:29:11 | saratoga | for all you know the file you're reading back is all zeros correct? |
| 00:29:46 | semitones | saratoga: yes. I could dd /dev/null to the disk, and see if that returns a different checksum |
| 00:30:07 | saratoga | why not just look at what you've read back and see if it matches the OF bin file? |
| 00:30:28 | semitones | saratoga: using what? just open the file in less or something? |
| 00:30:39 | saratoga | notepad for all i care . . . |
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| 00:31:08 | semitones | saratoga: sorry, i didn't realize you could just open it and read it |
| 00:32:45 | semitones | saratoga: it's different. less shows that the sansa disk was full of these: @^ |
| 00:32:47 | semitones | repeating |
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| 00:36:31 | semitones | why was dd reporting success but not succeeding |
| 00:37:44 | semitones | saratoga: http://paste.ubuntu.com/720167/ |
| 00:38:23 | saratoga | probably because theres nothing actually connected |
| 00:39:39 | semitones | so fdisk reports the disk, but I can't connect to it |
| 00:43:20 | saratoga | just because you give a USB device data doesn't mean its backed by storage |
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| 01:11:28 | saratoga | does anyone have any idea why dircache seems so sensitive to file system corruption? |
| 01:11:49 | saratoga | it seems to crash readily on disks that rockbox would happily read/write without incident |
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| 01:23:03 | JdGordon | saratoga: because it reads every file? |
| 01:23:39 | saratoga | but why does an error in the file system crash the parser? shouldn't it just find a file that has the wrong size or something similar? |
| 01:24:28 | saratoga | i mean its just walking the allocation table right, not actually scanning the disk? |
| 01:24:40 | JdGordon | dunno, depends on the corruption probably |
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| 01:40:44 | DerPapst | just on a side note... the multipart/mixed "server push" method works fine again in firefox version 7 and up (probably for older versions except ff4 as well). it would be nice if someone could reenable this feature for the irc reader :) |
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| 01:52:33 | saratoga | JdGordon: just skimming the parser it does things like run strlen and then use the result to increment pointers, so I suspect that could end badly if the entry is corrupt |
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| 01:53:50 | Acorn | Is there a quick way to get back to the music playback screen without going via the main menu? |
| 01:54:03 | Acorn | And is there a way to get back to that screen without resuming playback? |
| 01:54:24 | saratoga | depends on the target |
| 01:56:45 | | Quit Stummi (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 01:56:58 | Acorn | sansa clip+ in this case |
| 01:58:30 | JdGordon | menu+select iirc |
| 01:59:33 | JdGordon | saratoga: yeah, sounds likely... I know nothing about dircache and the FS layer, just seems obvious to me that dircache stresses the fs more than normal browsing might, so with some corruption it oculd kill it |
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| 02:05:24 | saratoga | i don't know anything about fat32, but it seems logical to me that the system should at least check that the lengths of strings and such are consistent with the maximum values allowed by the file system and if they aren't stop trying to build the cache |
| 02:05:59 | saratoga | unless the file system driver is already doing that somewhere |
| 02:06:15 | JdGordon | dunno |
| 02:06:46 | Acorn | JdGordon: hmm, looks like you can't get to the playback control with a plugin running.. |
| 02:06:57 | JdGordon | correct |
| 02:07:02 | JdGordon | some plugins provide it in a menu |
| 02:07:17 | Acorn | yeah, noticed the blackjack plugin had a menu |
| 02:07:29 | Acorn | shame you can't have a plugin running in the background |
| 02:08:02 | JdGordon | you can |
| 02:08:17 | JdGordon | only battery bench supports that though |
| 02:08:17 | Acorn | ah, that's good news |
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| 02:09:31 | Acorn | I was going to write a simple plugin to make beeping noises at specific intervals to help with jogging, probably in LUA, and it would be nice to be able to use the proper playback control interface while it was running |
| 02:10:11 | JdGordon | the LUA pluign probably doesnt support it either |
| 02:10:18 | Acorn | ah |
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| 03:00 |
| 03:04:21 | | Quit Strife89 (Quit: Reboot.) |
| 03:04:31 | saratoga | FS #12350 is really weird |
| 03:04:33 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12350 Clipv2 - Rockbox duplicates samples - effectively halves samplerate (bugs, unconfirmed) |
| 03:05:06 | saratoga | when you record in stereo the left channel gets sample 1 two times, then the right channel gets sample 2 two times, and so on |
| 03:05:14 | saratoga | like the interleave logic got reversed |
| 03:05:21 | saratoga | anyone know where that happens in the recording code? |
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| 03:54:36 | Lars_G | Hi all. |
| 03:54:49 | [Saint_] | o/ |
| 03:55:54 | Lars_G | hi. I think I'm better at community :D |
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| 08:04:22 | Prodicus | New to Rockbox here- what communication channels are best for feature requests and discussing them? Forums, user list, dev list, tracker? |
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| 08:05:27 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 08:05:38 | [Saint_] | I'm not sure we really *do* feature requests... |
| 08:05:52 | [Saint_] | We have "feature ideas", that's it. |
| 08:06:10 | [Saint_] | a request kinda implies that someone will do something about it :) |
| 08:06:32 | Prodicus | Well I didn't say feature demands :) |
| 08:06:50 | JdGordon | the forum is probably best for feature ideas |
| 08:06:51 | JdGordon | or here |
| 08:07:40 | JdGordon | but yeah, very few feature ideas make it anywhere unless someone comes up with a patch from the start |
| 08:07:54 | Prodicus | Couple thoughts then- first off, has anybody looked into doing CELT/Opus? You already do speex, CELT/Opus has a fixed-point decoder, and it outperforms speex at every bitrate |
| 08:08:58 | Prodicus | I don't know how much work they've done on ARM optimization yet though, probably not much |
| 08:09:33 | Kuitsi | I did browse my music via "Database -> Year" and in some cases it shows pretty strange years, like 204 or 3107. why? in amarok those tags seems to be correct. i'm using that "unusable" ipod classic port which otherwise seems to be working fine exept much shorter battery life |
| 08:09:41 | JdGordon | especially with audio codecs.. if the license is acceptable and there is a patch, it will probably be accepted |
| 08:09:55 | JdGordon | I dont tihnk a codec has ever been rejected because it wasnt wanted |
| 08:10:02 | JdGordon | we *even* have wma :p |
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| 08:14:43 | Prodicus | Ok; good to know. CELT/Opus is a collaboration between Xiph (esp. jmvalin, the guy behind speex) and Skype, and its license is a BSD variant. Should be accepted as an IETF standard pretty soon here. |
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| 08:17:10 | | Quit fyrestorm (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 08:17:58 | Prodicus | Second- I did a the default/recommended "complete" install on a Sansa Clip+, and after finding that Doom took up as much space as everything else combined, I removed it. Tossing the other extras into a default install comes at very little cost but I wonder whether you might want to rethink putting Doom in the defaults. |
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| 08:19:25 | | Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor) |
| 08:21:24 | Prodicus | Third, I noticed that the etiquette page linked from your mailing list page is completely empty. While I suppose that could be construed to mean something about expected etiquette I doubt it's the message you mean to send :) |
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| 08:34:23 | | Quit factor (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 08:37:29 | JdGordon | grr... there is no way to know if the user left the filebrwoser with the menu button or by backing out :/ both cases return GO_TO_ROOT :( |
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| 08:58:02 | wodz | yesterday I hit rather odd behaviour: from file browser select file for playback -> change repeat mode to one -> play a few loops -> change repeat mode to off -> and skip (short ff) do nothing |
| 08:58:39 | Prodicus | Perhaps sometime soon I may find time to set up a build environment and see whether I can manage to get opus to build under the cross compiler. TTFN. |
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| 09:00 |
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| 09:23:35 | kugel | might do a call for translators as we're still frozen? |
| 09:23:54 | Zagor | good idea |
| 09:26:15 | | Quit mshathlonxp () |
| 09:26:25 | | Join Kiwi_CAM [0] (~Kiwi_Cam@206.192.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) |
| 09:34:03 | GodEater_ | whats actually at the root of your questions KiwiCam ? |
| 09:34:10 | GodEater_ | whats actually at the root of your questions Kiwi_CAM ? :) |
| 09:34:18 | * | GodEater_ gets the right nick finally |
| 09:38:42 | | Join LinusN [0] (~linus@giant.haxx.se) |
| 09:40:06 | Kiwi_CAM | GodEater: That most iPod users won't have even heard of Rockbox. I can understand that, but it's a shame when you consider the potential number of RB users out there. |
| 09:43:05 | | Join bluefoxx [0] (FuzzyLomba@S0106e0cb4e0a6d8a.vs.shawcable.net) |
| 09:43:30 | wodz | Kiwi_CAM: most iPod users are special kind of people not really interested in anything not Apple branded |
| 09:43:51 | | Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) |
| 09:47:43 | Kiwi_CAM | So, the cool kids come here? ;) |
| 09:49:35 | Zagor | the kids who want more than came in the box, yes |
| 09:50:03 | Zagor | if that is "cool" or "stupid" depends on your perspective |
| 09:50:42 | Kiwi_CAM | I was fantasizing about spreading the RB word, by the use of stickers. Sort of like the ones you find of your laptops. Mine say Mint. They would be wasted on iPod users though, unless somehow, you could make it a cool thing to do. |
| 09:51:41 | Kiwi_CAM | I suppose, for your guys, it's just doing this, is what's important.Not the number of RB users. |
| 09:52:12 | Zagor | pretty much, yes. we have no reason to convince people to use rockbox. |
| 09:52:41 | Kiwi_CAM | Nah. Stickers wouldn't work. I could never get one on my Clip ;) |
| 09:52:53 | Zagor | we do want users, because a percentage of users are potential developers |
| 09:53:25 | Kiwi_CAM | Mmm. The developers would know where you were. |
| 09:53:33 | Kiwi_CAM | Eventually. |
| 09:53:53 | GodEater_ | I think we're victims of our own success in a lot of ways |
| 09:54:07 | GodEater_ | I know a reasonable number of people here at work who are ex-rockbox users |
| 09:54:08 | Kiwi_CAM | How so? |
| 09:54:13 | JdGordon | Kiwi_CAM: you mean like https://plus.google.com/u/0/102969486368377382090/posts/BbkAw1kqMH8 ? |
| 09:54:13 | GodEater_ | who are surprised to find the project is still going |
| 09:54:18 | Kiwi_CAM | You can brag. I don't mind. |
| 09:54:37 | GodEater_ | they came here "back in the day", installed rockbox, loved it, but never came back |
| 09:54:44 | GodEater_ | it already did so much for them they never bothered with upgrades |
| 09:54:57 | Kiwi_CAM | JdGordon: I got a 404 there. |
| 09:55:06 | GodEater_ | and then when they moved on to new devices, they figured the thing was so old now, there was no point going back to see if there were ports for their new toy |
| 09:55:19 | GodEater_ | a lot of them were absolutely staggered to discover the android port |
| 09:55:34 | JdGordon | ok, i fail at g+ |
| 09:57:50 | JdGordon | https://plus.google.com/u/0/102969486368377382090/posts/R5pNpvAgKPJ |
| 09:59:23 | Kiwi_CAM | That's the beauty of Rockbox. It evolves. You can always come back. There are always new players. But, I can see why you're doing Android. I have a droid, but I'm not giving up my MP3 Player. |
| 10:00 |
| 10:01:52 | Kiwi_CAM | WTF is that?!? Scale's hard to tell. A subwoofer? You could make a small sticker with a capital RB (grey B). "I've been Rockboxed" or Rockbox is Me!" |
| 10:03:01 | JdGordon | thats my laptop |
| 10:05:28 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 10:06:05 | Kiwi_CAM | I should have known by the bulge ;) Too much heat isn't good for the family jewels mate. Where can one get a Rockbox sticker then? Pretty please? |
| 10:19:24 | * | Kiwi_CAM sulks in the RB non community corner. |
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| 10:34:40 | * | [Saint_] wonders if a: its possible to, and b: if there's ay reason not to allow RaaA to rotate 180 degrees on devices that can support it. |
| 10:35:17 | [Saint_] | I end up using my phone upside down quite a bit. |
| 10:35:21 | Zagor | it's not possible today, since they are hardcoded to a specific resolution and orientation |
| 10:35:28 | Zagor | oh, 180 |
| 10:35:40 | Zagor | that should be perfectly doable |
| 10:36:51 | Zagor | we already have an upside down setting for other targets |
| 10:37:18 | [Saint_] | Not all devices support app rotation at 180 degrees, but I know the CM ROMs defintely do, for apps that allow it. |
| 10:37:33 | [Saint_] | And it could also be an actual on/off/sensor setting presumably. |
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| 11:00 |
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| 11:15:22 | pixelma | Kiwi_CAM: scorche and bluebrother made some stickers but I don't know if any are left |
| 11:19:39 | kugel | pixelma: I pinged because I wanted to ask you about hte german transaltion on the tracker |
| 11:22:25 | kugel | mc2739: ping |
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| 11:35:59 | pamaury | jhMikeS: ping |
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| 11:49:03 | pamaury | I wonder one again why *does the fucking hell* kernel.c contains the documentation of the kernel function but NOT the header kernel.h, this makes no sense ! |
| 11:49:06 | pamaury | *once |
| 11:50:07 | | Join dfkt [0] (~dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) |
| 11:51:14 | Zagor | probably because they were written while writing the code |
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| 12:00 |
| 12:05:31 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 12:05:40 | pamaury | yes but this is weird |
| 12:07:34 | Torne | "Topit" is a forum spammer who has gotten past the filter |
| 12:07:39 | Torne | bumped a load of threads with obvious junk |
| 12:07:59 | Torne | also Tonglimit |
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| 12:20:22 | pamaury | that's really strange, on my fuze+ the usb thread is created but does not appear in the os stack list :-/ |
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| 12:28:10 | pamaury | apparently something is calling usb_close |
| 12:30:28 | pamaury | lol, there is a buggy switch fallback in usb.c !! |
| 12:30:40 | pamaury | really really weird |
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| 12:35:47 | CIA-14 | New commit by pamaury (r30843): usb: add forgotten break in usb switch, this could lead to unwanted code being execute like USB_QUIT to be sent on hotswap ! |
| 12:38:01 | CIA-14 | r30843 build result: All green |
| 12:38:20 | CIA-14 | New commit by pamaury (r30844): fuzeplus: rework button handling to use a queue instead of a blocking semaphore in the thread |
| 12:39:42 | GodEater_ | I thought we were in feature freeze? |
| 12:39:57 | CIA-14 | r30844 build result: All green |
| 12:39:57 | GodEater_ | oh, sorry - new port |
| 12:39:59 | GodEater_ | ignore me |
| 12:44:01 | pamaury | and bugfix |
| 12:44:15 | pamaury | r30843 is clearly a bug |
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| 13:00 |
| 13:08:24 | kugel | pamaury: well, we have no established policy regarding that, so everything is correct (unfortunately including no documentation at all) :( |
| 13:09:06 | pamaury | yes I know, it's just that it's not the first time I look at kernel.h, grumbles because there is no, so I go to kernel.c to read it and bam ! there is doc :-/ |
| 13:09:10 | kugel | I think documentation in headers has one major flaw. implementation and its documention are separated, which leads to outdated documenation |
| 13:09:30 | pamaury | but in this case, the doc is not even complete |
| 13:12:59 | | Quit Bagder (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 13:13:46 | Zagor | pamaury: exactly. it's not doc as much as a few descriptive code comments. |
| 13:13:48 | | Quit hilbert (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) |
| 13:16:13 | kugel | lorenzo92: let's talk here |
| 13:19:09 | lorenzo92 | okay |
| 13:19:22 | lorenzo92 | so r0 application manages everything |
| 13:19:28 | | Join HaimN [0] (~HaimN@31.44.133.180) |
| 13:19:32 | lorenzo92 | the kernel is not supposed to be used with other apss |
| 13:19:36 | lorenzo92 | *apps |
| 13:19:56 | kugel | I can believe that |
| 13:19:57 | lorenzo92 | that's why we need to manage everything in rockbox too |
| 13:20:32 | kugel | it seems strange they don't use a sensible cpu governor |
| 13:20:57 | lorenzo92 | eh there are a lot of strange things in their firmwares...trust me hehe. Just ask lebellium too :) |
| 13:21:33 | lorenzo92 | even keypad for example |
| 13:21:49 | lorenzo92 | they didn't implement it as a normal input device in kernel...no!...they used a module |
| 13:22:01 | lorenzo92 | polling everytime /dev/r0Btn |
| 13:22:27 | lorenzo92 | mgue has tried to build a kernel module to implement it as keyboard but he failed... |
| 13:24:07 | kugel | I cant find sys/platform/cpu/.../cur_cpu_freq on my system |
| 13:24:16 | lorenzo92 | wait I give you the exact path |
| 13:24:44 | lorenzo92 | anyway here the doc too: http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/cpu-freq/governors.txt |
| 13:25:12 | lorenzo92 | "/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/" |
| 13:25:29 | lorenzo92 | hit ls on there and see... |
| 13:25:52 | kugel | I looked there :) |
| 13:26:02 | Zagor | what are you discussing? |
| 13:26:12 | lorenzo92 | YP-R0 port |
| 13:26:36 | Zagor | does it run linux? |
| 13:26:44 | lorenzo92 | in 2 words: the player runs a linux kernel, so I'm porting rb as an application, but we need to control HW directly like in a normal rb port |
| 13:27:01 | Zagor | yay, more hybrids :-) |
| 13:27:06 | lorenzo92 | yes :D |
| 13:27:19 | kugel | lorenzo92: I found scaling_cur_freq there |
| 13:27:23 | lorenzo92 | yes |
| 13:27:31 | kugel | that never gives the lowest frequency for me |
| 13:27:43 | kugel | probably because reading it means load |
| 13:27:48 | lorenzo92 | eh it depends on config and acrive governor |
| 13:27:54 | lorenzo92 | *active |
| 13:27:59 | kugel | ondemand here |
| 13:28:19 | lorenzo92 | uhm ok...well so it depends on the cpu type |
| 13:28:35 | lorenzo92 | for example here on r0 we have 200-400-532 MHz only |
| 13:28:36 | kugel | dont think so |
| 13:28:55 | kugel | I see various higher frequencies but never the lowest one |
| 13:29:06 | | Quit linuxstb (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 13:29:18 | kugel | I'm thinking reading that file isn't the best measure to read the current frequency |
| 13:29:20 | lorenzo92 | uhm try to cat scaling_min_freq or something similar |
| 13:29:27 | lorenzo92 | yes it is |
| 13:29:52 | lorenzo92 | at least on my player... |
| 13:29:54 | kugel | scaling_min_freq gives the lowest |
| 13:30:12 | kugel | that gives 532 on the r0? |
| 13:30:28 | lorenzo92 | 200 mhz lowest, 532 max |
| 13:30:41 | lorenzo92 | I've seen the kernel sources too, that's right |
| 13:31:09 | lorenzo92 | wait I turn on rockbox to see values with text viewer |
| 13:31:26 | kugel | the text viewer doesnt refresh I think |
| 13:31:42 | lorenzo92 | yes indeed...everytime i need to do manually :) |
| 13:32:11 | kugel | I'm questioning that it runs at 532 all the time, and that reading that file is a good way to find out |
| 13:32:50 | lorenzo92 | yes it is. trust me hehe. it runs everytime at 532 by default. Samsung developers are not so clever indeed |
| 13:33:08 | kugel | what does scaling_min_freq give you? |
| 13:33:18 | kugel | and which governor? |
| 13:33:19 | lorenzo92 | 200000 |
| 13:33:26 | lorenzo92 | by default userspace |
| 13:33:37 | lorenzo92 | now I setted it to conservative to test |
| 13:33:43 | lorenzo92 | and freq is scaled down to 200 mzh |
| 13:33:55 | lorenzo92 | (i can see because rb is a bit laggy) |
| 13:34:03 | lorenzo92 | brickmania for example |
| 13:34:05 | lorenzo92 | hehe |
| 13:34:05 | kugel | ah okay. if userspace is the governor than it is believable |
| 13:34:41 | lorenzo92 | oh I just discovered we have stats too |
| 13:34:45 | | Join linuxstb [0] (~linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) |
| 13:34:54 | kugel | I personally think ondemand is the best; but yea, if userspace is the default governor we should do something about it |
| 13:35:29 | lorenzo92 | why? |
| 13:35:37 | lorenzo92 | I can set it to ondemand |
| 13:35:41 | lorenzo92 | before loading rb... |
| 13:36:02 | kugel | with something could mean to set ondemand :) |
| 13:36:07 | kugel | s/with// |
| 13:37:54 | kugel | Zagor: looks like we need to do power management, backlight, sound output (i.e. not using alsa/sdl/whatever) in rockbox |
| 13:38:07 | kugel | so not quite an normal app port |
| 13:38:35 | * | kugel almost doesnt dare to ask |
| 13:38:41 | kugel | lorenzo92: what about usb? |
| 13:39:15 | lorenzo92 | brb... |
| 13:40:20 | lorenzo92 | btw sound is ok throug sdl (i'm listening fine)...it's volume that we need it to be hw (as3543 codec) |
| 13:41:59 | Zagor | is this really going to be any easier than a native port? |
| 13:42:46 | HaimN | Hi, Can I interrupt you for a minute? I can't download rockbox for android from rasher.dk/rockbox/android/">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/android/ it's always stop at the middle, there is another way to download it? |
| 13:52:00 | pixelma | kugel: I may have some time today in the evening |
| 13:52:41 | Zagor | HaimN: it works fine for me |
| 13:53:45 | | Quit ReimuHak_ (Quit: Leaving...) |
| 13:55:16 | lorenzo92 | back... |
| 13:55:48 | lorenzo92 | native port would be quite impossible: bootloader is not possible to be flashed without a samsung tool that's no public |
| 13:56:00 | Zagor | ok |
| 13:56:42 | lorenzo92 | but sound is working and backlight too (I've already found the ioctl code to manage ascodec registers through afe.ko module) |
| 13:57:06 | lorenzo92 | we need "just" to understand how to implement ascodec full management for hw audio (to keep sdl volume at 100%) |
| 13:58:32 | lorenzo92 | ...and for other goodies such as rtc alarm + time management |
| 13:59:04 | lorenzo92 | ah yeah another issue...time isn't managed by the kernel :S...samsung app saves a value in /dev/stl1, like a time diff |
| 13:59:14 | lorenzo92 | I now go to understand it |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:46 | lorenzo92 | for example, in the last dump I have this value |
| 14:01:04 | lorenzo92 | 88293553273...maybe they are milliseconds or what else uhm uhm |
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| 14:03:19 | mc2739 | kugel: pong |
| 14:03:27 | HaimN | Zagor: strange, Is there a site that I can upload the file directly from the Internet and then download it? Maybe this will solve my problem |
| 14:03:31 | lorenzo92 | kugel: usb is easy to make it work, they are usb gadgets. The fact I cannot understand is that sharing partitions with usb in a script works in the original kernel, but not in the recompiled one |
| 14:03:44 | kugel | mc2739: I posted a patch to the usb screen corruption task |
| 14:04:13 | Zagor | lorenzo92: can you load a custom kernel? |
| 14:04:25 | lorenzo92 | via kexec you mean? |
| 14:04:31 | lorenzo92 | ah flashing it? yes... |
| 14:05:10 | mc2739 | I saw it. I will try to test, but am leaving for work shortly |
| 14:05:16 | Zagor | so what stops you doing a native port again? :-) |
| 14:05:32 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:05:53 | lorenzo92 | knowledge hehe |
| 14:06:06 | | Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 14:06:22 | lorenzo92 | I'm still on high-level things :D |
| 14:07:09 | pamaury | Zoiah: did you think about the decryption/encryption method I told you about in my mail ? |
| 14:07:15 | | Join bluefoxx [0] (fuzzylomba@S0106e0cb4e0a6d8a.vs.shawcable.net) |
| 14:10:07 | lorenzo92 | zagor: and of course to flash something you need a special cable + special software if you want to be sure... |
| 14:10:07 | Zoiah | pamaury: we're missing each nicely every day. ;) |
| 14:10:07 | Zoiah | pamaury: you mean in your mail from 25-10-2011 20:39? |
| 14:10:07 | pamaury | I think so yes |
| 14:10:07 | pamaury | yes, this week I'm in holydays in a foreign conntry so I'm not online quite often, except today |
| 14:10:07 | Zoiah | I responded with 'I'm totally up for it. :)', etc. right? |
| 14:10:10 | | Quit LinusN (Quit: disconnecting from stoned server.) |
| 14:10:27 | | Join LinusN [0] (~linus@giant.haxx.se) |
| 14:10:34 | pamaury | strange, I didn't get answer, let me check |
| 14:11:14 | pamaury | oh strange, I got your answer but gmail never told me so :( |
| 14:12:09 | pamaury | ok, then I'll try to do that, modify my sbtools to work with a device to encrypt/decrypt, that will be fun :) |
| 14:12:27 | pamaury | I'm just curious: do you plan to port rockbox to it if it works ? |
| 14:13:37 | | Quit HaimN (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 14:14:26 | Zoiah | I could give it a try. |
| 14:14:46 | Zoiah | I'm not very skilled at this stuff, but http://etherhack.wordpress.com/ is an example of some other (non-finished) work I did. |
| 14:15:53 | pamaury | I already wrote much of the code for the imx233/stmp3780 so you "just" need to reverse engineer the missing part: LCD init is the first major step. Actually, it would be awesome it you could put photos of the inside of your device on the wiki, if you can open it |
| 14:16:21 | pamaury | so that we know what is the hardware |
| 14:16:30 | Zoiah | But encryption, let alone OTP, fuse, chip, etc. stuff is way out of my league. I think I kinda understand what you're getting at, but I don't think I would be able to think of it, or reproduce it. :) |
| 14:17:03 | Zoiah | I could try cracking it open, I don't think there is a teardown on the net. |
| 14:17:55 | pamaury | it doesn't really matter, I know it because I spent hours reversing the ROM, reading the manual and reversing the fuze+ firmware :) Yes, with nice picures of it. |
| 14:17:59 | lorenzo92 | so for my R0 the things to be discussed are: how to implement the ascodec management in a clean way? |
| 14:18:46 | lorenzo92 | I've already prepared basic things for reading/writing registers. And this is working like a charm for the backligh |
| 14:18:47 | pamaury | I'll got out for an hour, to put things on the wiki you need to register and then ask for write access I think, just ask on the channel |
| 14:18:50 | pamaury | *go |
| 14:19:23 | Zoiah | Any idea why the fuze+ wasn't encryped? |
| 14:19:32 | Zoiah | Or encrypted with zeros AES key, actually, right? |
| 14:19:36 | pamaury | is was, but with default key (0) :) |
| 14:19:45 | pamaury | just lazyness I guess |
| 14:20:10 | pamaury | or perhaps it required something special during manufacturing process ? |
| 14:20:12 | Zoiah | Didn't Sandisk support Rockbox in the past? |
| 14:20:55 | pamaury | they kind of supported us without support :) They offered us to send free fuze+ but not the documentation so they might want to see a Rockbox port so that people buy more of they devices :D |
| 14:20:58 | Zoiah | Maybe Sandisk supports freedom. ;) |
| 14:21:31 | pamaury | Actually I won't complain, I see this as an opportunity :) |
| 14:21:41 | Zoiah | I understand why the OTP bits don't want to be read, but I don't understand how you want to try to make the thing encrypt a binary. |
| 14:21:57 | Zoiah | Embedded hardware is cool though, it's always been a random interest of me. |
| 14:22:25 | pamaury | That's the nice point: AES is so strong that even if you have a black box that encrypt/decrypt, it will take you years to find the key |
| 14:22:56 | Zoiah | Yup, there are some attacks that make the searchable keyspace less, but still more than the heatdeath of our universe. ;) |
| 14:22:57 | pamaury | so you write the key somewhere, lock it so noone can read it except the hardware and then you use the hardware to encrypt/decrypt (which is the point of AES) |
| 14:23:06 | Zoiah | How come you can run your code on it? |
| 14:24:24 | Zoiah | Also,I thought you needed to go? ;) |
| 14:25:18 | pamaury | because the ROM is buggy. The encrypted updater.sb with two keys, knowing one key is sufficient to encrypt/decrypt, except that if you do this, you have to be able to produce a file with a known SHA-1 cipher which is at least as hard as breaking AES I think. Here is the point: the SHA-1 is a control sum of the *whole* image the ROM doesn't check it :D |
| 14:25:34 | pamaury | yes, I'll go, I'll give you the details later if you want |
| 14:25:41 | Zoiah | Yes, I'm interested in this. :) |
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| 14:52:32 | lorenzo92 | okay the governor settings are quite fine now |
| 14:52:45 | lorenzo92 | just need to lower the frequency of control |
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| 14:58:37 | lorenzo92 | anyone knows if imx37 display can be switched off? I mean, not only backlight...because I'm guessing that |
| 15:00 |
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| 15:07:03 | JdGordon | Zagor: the restarting playback of the current track *does* still for sure happen in svn |
| 15:07:06 | JdGordon | the crashes dont though |
| 15:07:16 | Zagor | argh, ok |
| 15:07:17 | JdGordon | so not sure if that should be reopened |
| 15:07:31 | JdGordon | probably a new task made to more explain it |
| 15:08:48 | Zagor | I think the task is fine. I'll just downgrade it. |
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| 15:13:30 | lorenzo92 | okay to put framebuffer in sleep mode this should do the job: |
| 15:13:31 | lorenzo92 | # echo 1 > /sys/class/graphics/fb0/blank |
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| 15:22:59 | lorenzo92 | I go now see you all ;) |
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| 15:41:32 | pamaury | Zoiah: still here ? |
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| 15:50:57 | Zoiah | pamaury: yeah. :) |
| 15:51:04 | Zoiah | pamaury: but kinda busy during the day usually. |
| 15:53:47 | pamaury | Ok, so here is basically how it works. The SB file format has a small weirdness: it doesn't use the OTP key to encrypt the file. Instead it uses a random key. So that it does is the following: generate a random key, encrypt it using the OTP key, write the encrypted key in the image and then encrypt everything with the real random key. So far so good except that the SB format has support for *several* OTP keys and here is the flaw: if you have N |
| 15:53:47 | pamaury | keys, you encrypt the *same random key* with the N keys and generate N encrypted form of the key. The consequence is that if you know any of the key, you can recover the real key |
| 15:55:01 | Torne | you can? it's doing XOR? |
| 15:55:01 | | Join GodEater_ [0] (93722cc8@rockbox/staff/GodEater) |
| 15:55:03 | Torne | or similar? |
| 15:55:11 | pamaury | AES |
| 15:56:36 | Torne | Oh, wait |
| 15:56:40 | Torne | Sorry, yes, I see what you mean |
| 15:57:21 | Torne | you can recover the "session" key, and thus encrypt other files and just copypaste the encrypted bit we don't have the key for |
| 15:57:35 | pamaury | That's idea, details are coming :) |
| 15:58:54 | pamaury | You can call it a feature but this is actually a flaw because of the following fact. Assume now that you have an encrypted image with two keys: K1 and Z, you don't know K1 but you know Z (before it's 0 for example). Then with Z you decrypt the real key and then use it to encrypt your data. Then at the end you don't use the header you should have constructed but the one of the image you've got. Of course the header doesn't fully match the file |
| 15:58:54 | pamaury | content because it doesn't have the same length and same section but here comes the second, fatal flaw of the SB format. Is was designed to be streamed and not access randomly, which means that even though the mastee header tells you everything about the file, most of information is duplicated later for the ROM to stream everything and avoid keeping information. So once the header has been read and validated, it's forgets everything and just |
| 15:58:54 | pamaury | apply the commands as long as there are properly encrypted :D |
| 15:59:43 | pamaury | *they |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:48 | pamaury | Using this technique, you can craft a file that get data through USB, use the hardware to encrypt/decrypt using the OTP key K1 (that you don't know and will never know) and then give it back through USB. |
| 16:01:32 | pamaury | Then you're done because you can encrypt any file you want |
| 16:03:49 | | Join GeekShad1w [0] (~antoine@178.89.193.77.rev.sfr.net) |
| 16:04:09 | | Quit GeekShadow (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 16:04:14 | pamaury | That's theory, now the last step needs to be done: write the magic encrypter/decrypter. But the inital mistake was to release a file with two keys: the OTP and zero. |
| 16:05:35 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 16:09:59 | Zoiah | pamaury: I'll save this text for future reading, it looks like I should understand it, but it's not hitting me yet. ;) |
| 16:10:16 | Zoiah | Anyhow, I understand how you can run your own code now. |
| 16:10:37 | Zoiah | Any code can encrypt stuff? |
| 16:12:20 | Zoiah | As a feature? |
| 16:12:49 | pamaury | what do you mean ? |
| 16:13:10 | Zoiah | Do I understand correctly that the flaw you explained allows you to run your own code on ARM core? |
| 16:14:01 | pamaury | yes, you can send a file and the ROM will think it's valid and run it |
| 16:14:22 | Zoiah | In theory, you could always use this to bootstrap rockbox? |
| 16:14:33 | Zoiah | s/always/already/ |
| 16:14:44 | pamaury | yes |
| 16:14:49 | pamaury | except there is a little problem |
| 16:15:21 | pamaury | you need to reverse engineer the OF to be able to port rockbox to this target (thing like LCD for example). |
| 16:15:33 | pamaury | and to reverse engineer the OF you need to decrypt it :) |
| 16:15:56 | Zoiah | Right. |
| 16:16:35 | pamaury | That's why I want to write the tool that decrypt/encrypt, I'll start it in a minute, it *shouldn't* be too long to get it work |
| 16:16:44 | Zoiah | But the LCD is probably some standard component? So opening up and identifying stuff is probably a step in the right direction? |
| 16:17:09 | | Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch) |
| 16:17:21 | Torne | identifying stuff is useful, but pretty much every target has a number of things that either don't have public docs, or are sufficiently complicated that things like "how exactly is it wired up" are significant |
| 16:17:32 | Torne | so reverse engineering the OF is pretty much always also required |
| 16:18:06 | Zoiah | But it probably helps that the i.mx233 has a LCD controller integrated, so at least this part is standard? |
| 16:18:19 | pamaury | this is partly standard yes |
| 16:18:39 | pamaury | but things like backlight, chip enable might not be and even then you usually can't tell what the lcd model s |
| 16:18:40 | pamaury | is |
| 16:18:47 | Zoiah | But there seems to be a few different ways to talk to the LCDs. |
| 16:19:03 | pamaury | talking is one thing |
| 16:19:06 | Torne | LCD panels have a nasty habit of the panel/controller mdoel numbers and so on facing inwards :p |
| 16:19:15 | Torne | such that you can only raed them if you pry the LCD module apart |
| 16:19:24 | Torne | which is usually destructive due to thin ribbon cables |
| 16:20:35 | pamaury | and lcd is not the only problem |
| 16:20:43 | Zoiah | It's a 2.4", 320x240, how many of those could there be. ;) |
| 16:20:56 | Zagor | haha |
| 16:21:11 | | Join y4n [0] (y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx) |
| 16:21:44 | pamaury | things like buttons, chip enable, radio enable, ... are difficult to find out without the schematics. And if by chance it uses a raw nand with a FTL, you need to figure out the FTL as well :-/ |
| 16:22:29 | pamaury | I think there are a number of them ? |
| 16:22:37 | Torne | there are quite a lot |
| 16:22:50 | Torne | and people often invent their own |
| 16:22:52 | Torne | because they are idiots |
| 16:23:25 | GodEater_ | pamaury: which we've never successfully done with any great degree of reliability have we? |
| 16:23:28 | pamaury | if they use the standard i80 protocol, you can read register 0 which might help you figuring out the model |
| 16:23:32 | GodEater_ | (re: FTL layer) |
| 16:23:41 | pamaury | GodEater_: don't think so, indeed :) |
| 16:24:09 | pamaury | it's just too complicated to understand without the doc |
| 16:24:20 | GodEater_ | black and evil magic indeed |
| 16:24:37 | Zoiah | pamaury: how did you end up disassembling the bootrom of the Sansa? |
| 16:24:39 | Zoiah | fuze+* |
| 16:24:48 | Torne | one day if you all are very, very nice to me i might try reversing one of the FTLs ;P |
| 16:24:58 | GodEater_ | how nice? |
| 16:25:13 | Zoiah | Were you able to find a copy? Or did you dump it from flash with a in-system-header-thing? |
| 16:25:18 | GodEater_ | are we talking a bottle of champagne, or a weekend in Vegas nice? |
| 16:25:51 | pamaury | Zoiah: I dump it because it's at a know address |
| 16:25:53 | pamaury | *dumped |
| 16:25:55 | Torne | I have quite a list of things to be reversing :p |
| 16:25:56 | pamaury | *known |
| 16:26:06 | Torne | i've been fiddling with ipodvideo diagmode on and off lately |
| 16:26:14 | Torne | i should probably actually have a go at implementing positive charger detection |
| 16:26:19 | Torne | I think it's only going to work on ipodvideo, though |
| 16:26:27 | Torne | it looks like none of the other models do it the same way :/ |
| 16:26:43 | Torne | it's pretty trivial there, though |
| 16:26:44 | Zoiah | pamaury: so you were already able to run your own code before you started disassembling this? |
| 16:28:34 | kugel | GodEater_: the nano2g has ftl |
| 16:28:34 | pamaury | Zoiah: yes :) Because even before I disassembled the Freescale tool which build SB file so I was able to figure out the SB format before Freescale put it online and then I was to decrypt the fuze+ OF and that was enough information. I only dumped the ROM because I needed to undersand a precise detail (which I did) but now it's seems rather pointless because Freescale released some doc |
| 16:28:56 | kugel | reversed from the apple os, and it works well afaik |
| 16:29:07 | pamaury | The only useful knownledge was that the ROM load the file in streaming mode and doesn't check SHA-1 sum at the end |
| 16:29:24 | Zoiah | pamaury: ahh, ok, that makes sense. |
| 16:29:31 | Zoiah | pamaury: IDA? |
| 16:29:42 | pamaury | kugel: doesn't the apple os erase itself sometimes and ask for recover ? |
| 16:29:44 | pamaury | Zoiah: yes |
| 16:29:56 | kugel | dont know |
| 16:30:08 | kugel | the nano2g port is stable, though |
| 16:31:10 | pamaury | wow, just noticed in the imx manual that they derived their AES hardware from an opencores implementation |
| 16:33:16 | | Quit Thra11 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 16:33:22 | Zoiah | Freescale published most of the original Sigmatel docs? |
| 16:33:59 | | Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 16:34:22 | | Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) |
| 16:34:47 | Zoiah | pamaury: I'll be at home in 1-1.5 hours or so, and then I'll quickly try to pop it open before I have to leave again. ;) |
| 16:35:06 | Zoiah | There don't seem to be any visible screws on the outside, so this should be fun. |
| 16:36:25 | pamaury | A knife is a good tool to open players :) |
| 16:36:55 | pamaury | Zoiah: they published the SoC manual, the elftosb and sbtools source and the doc of the tools/format |
| 16:37:08 | pamaury | they didn't published some things related to the ROM though |
| 16:37:15 | | Join liar [0] (~liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at) |
| 16:37:16 | pamaury | *publish |
| 16:41:22 | Zoiah | Not the SDK, right? |
| 16:45:23 | pamaury | no :) I would dream of it since I spent hours and hours reverse engineering it |
| 16:50:43 | Zoiah | STMP36xx is probably too different? Because that SDK seems leaked. |
| 16:52:07 | | Part LinusN |
| 16:58:44 | pamaury | it's quite different |
| 17:00 |
| 17:02:45 | pamaury | the sdk of the stmp37xx is based on ThreadX |
| 17:02:50 | Zoiah | It's atleast an ARM core, compared to the MP35xx CPU craziness. |
| 17:03:01 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:04:18 | pamaury | definitely |
| 17:05:26 | Zoiah | SigmaTel uses Express Logic's ThreadX® real-time operating system (RTOS) in its STMP3600 System on Chip (SoC) which provides …/, |
| 17:09:46 | pamaury | really ? Didn't know that. In any case, there are lots of hardware differences and it's doesn't solve the fundamental problem that it's a sdk so it's meant to be modified and you are interested in the modification :) |
| 17:24:53 | | Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) |
| 17:25:08 | | Join Darko [0] (5fb434a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.180.52.169) |
| 17:25:19 | Darko | Hello! |
| 17:25:26 | Darko | I have compiled my Tutorial here |
| 17:25:28 | Darko | http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,29115.0.html |
| 17:25:34 | Darko | and registered to Wiki |
| 17:25:45 | Darko | can someone grant me access to write/editi Wiki pages |
| 17:26:07 | Darko | also, do you have any suggestion where to put this Tutorial in? What section is best? |
| 17:26:54 | | Quit GodEater_ (Quit: Page closed) |
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| 17:46:21 | mortalis | Darko: What's your wiki name? |
| 17:52:32 | | Quit Darko (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 17:52:40 | | Quit MethoS- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 17:55:11 | Zoiah | pamaury: with 'random key' in your sb 'exploit', does this mean IV? |
| 17:55:29 | Zoiah | Bear with me if I'm asking stupid questions. ;) |
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| 18:00 |
| 18:02:31 | | Join Darko [0] (5fb434a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.180.52.169) |
| 18:02:59 | Darko | it is Darko |
| 18:03:01 | Darko | my Wiki name |
| 18:04:55 | Darko | mortalis |
| 18:05:38 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 18:05:43 | | Join fyrestorm [0] (~nnscript@cpe-24-90-84-81.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 18:07:47 | mortalis | Darko: your wiki name should be first name + last name |
| 18:08:02 | Darko | Darko Angeleski |
| 18:09:24 | mortalis | Darko: access granted |
| 18:09:34 | Darko | thanks |
| 18:09:50 | Darko | can you recommend section where to put this tutorial in? |
| 18:10:13 | Darko | I will work on it later this evening |
| 18:11:10 | Darko | probably as a branch of SansaAMSunbrick |
| 18:12:15 | | Join dv_ [0] (~quassel@chello080108009040.14.11.vie.surfer.at) |
| 18:12:20 | dv_ | hi |
| 18:12:48 | dv_ | I have a sansa clip+, and want to put rockbox on it |
| 18:13:13 | krazykit | ok, so go ahead |
| 18:13:30 | dv_ | however, this wiki page speaks of USB problems: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMS according to this, I could get the svn code and apply the USB patch, |
| 18:13:44 | dv_ | but it is not recommended, because it gives me only USB 1.1 on windows. |
| 18:13:48 | dv_ | is this the only problem? |
| 18:16:33 | krazykit | well, you can always boot into the original firmware for usb, if it really bothers you |
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| 18:32:49 | pamaury | Zoiah: IV and key are two separate things in AES, I don't really have time to explain I need to leave, let's say it's a tricky detail of the format :) |
| 18:32:52 | | Quit pamaury (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 18:34:26 | kugel | mc2739: bummer! |
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| 18:45:14 | mortalis | I want to start hm801 port. Can i get svn access? Or I should use FS for posting patches? svn access would be much more handy for me as i plan to continue work on RB for hifimans. |
| 18:49:09 | Torne | people are invited to become committers after we have seen their work |
| 18:49:23 | Torne | not because they are doing some work in future :) |
| 18:49:41 | Torne | We're trying to transition to using git, which will make this easier |
| 18:49:57 | Torne | there is a git mirror of svn at the moment that you could use. |
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| 19:00 |
| 19:00:32 | | Join acorn [0] (2e4019ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.64.25.173) |
| 19:01:50 | acorn | is it possible to write a playlist that specifies start end times within mp3 files that can be played in rockbox? |
| 19:02:07 | Llorean | No. |
| 19:02:47 | | Join thomasjfox [0] (~thomasjfo@rockbox/developer/thomasjfox) |
| 19:03:19 | acorn | Using a cue sheet wouldn't help? |
| 19:03:41 | Llorean | A cue sheet is for subtracks within a single file. It's a bit different than a playlist. |
| 19:04:03 | acorn | can you refer to subtracks within a file from a playlist? |
| 19:04:10 | Llorean | No, as I said. |
| 19:04:28 | Llorean | This isn't defined within standard M3U as far as I know, and this is what we currently support. |
| 19:04:42 | mortalis | Torne: I've done some work allready. hifiman hm-601 initial port, which was commited by wodz. Do i need some permissions on git mirror to commit my work so everyone could see it? |
| 19:04:53 | acorn | I suppose it could be done with a plugin using the playback controls API |
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| 19:19:46 | saratoga | mortalis: usually people doing a new port get svn invites pretty quickly |
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| 19:37:35 | * | user890104 wonders why http://www.rockbox.org/since-release.html shows changes since 3.8 and not since the last release |
| 19:38:48 | bluebrother | probably because nobody updated it :) |
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| 20:12:13 | mc2739 | kugel: no longer a bummer! |
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| 20:13:49 | kugel | mc2739: hmm; I also tried the mass-files trick (my dircache was ~3MB) |
| 20:13:53 | kugel | without success |
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| 20:25:11 | bertrik | once I have the clip zip (and it has a rds capable fm tuner indeed) I can finally start to work on RDS support for real |
| 20:25:58 | amiconn | saratoga: Please remind me, what's this channel swap good for? |
| 20:26:17 | bertrik | it looks like a GPIO is used as interrupt to notify receipt of a new RDS packet |
| 20:27:42 | bertrik | I think I'll use a thread to read the RDS data over i2c and use the interrupt to wake up the thread |
| 20:28:02 | | Quit Zambezi (Quit: Reconnecting) |
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| 20:28:37 | * | jhMikeS doesn't think "channel swap" should be a stereo mode at all, nor should it need to copy anything. |
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| 20:33:00 | amiconn | hmm? |
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| 20:34:06 | jhMikeS | its' not really a stereo channel mode like karaoke but that's how the patch was implemented, as part of the stereo mode menu |
| 20:34:26 | jhMikeS | second, pointer swapping should be all that's needed, not swapping the channel data |
| 20:34:56 | | Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 20:35:10 | amiconn | (a) it's an additional option. (b) if we want it at all, on hwcodec the only way to implement it is to use the stereo matrix |
| 20:35:32 | jhMikeS | as for what it's good for, who knows. I suspect it's to get around some PCM driver bug on one target. |
| 20:37:17 | amiconn | If it's only that, I'd say it's silly to add such an option. Instead of that, the bug should be fixed |
| 20:37:42 | saratoga | amiconn: dfkt and linuxstb came up with it ages ago, i'm not sure what the use case was |
| 20:37:52 | saratoga | i don't think it was a device bug though |
| 20:38:16 | kugel | "don't know what this ancient patch is for...let's commit and see!" |
| 20:38:37 | jhMikeS | was it? I remember it being suggested due to channel swap on newer ipods. I also recall dicussing it here briefly, but noone was exactly enthusiastic. |
| 20:39:17 | saratoga | well we have mono and karaoke modes, so channel reverse seems sensible enough |
| 20:39:21 | jhMikeS | the former was recent, the latter years ago |
| 20:39:39 | | Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;)) |
| 20:39:43 | mortalis | FS #12355. One more HiFiMAN. Comments are welcome. |
| 20:39:45 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12355 First patch for HiFiMAN HM-801 target (patches, unconfirmed) |
| 20:39:49 | saratoga | oh nice |
| 20:40:04 | jhMikeS | yeah, but channel swap can be applied along with the other modes |
| 20:40:19 | saratoga | which other modes would it make sense in? |
| 20:40:58 | saratoga | i guess the cross feed type mode? |
| 20:41:34 | jhMikeS | stereo, karaoke, custom |
| 20:42:03 | jhMikeS | I was thinking it should just be a separate step if it's to be there at all |
| 20:42:43 | saratoga | i guess the custom mode could be used in parallel with some of the others as well |
| 20:42:47 | dfkt | saratoga, the case for channel swap was that some in-ear phones are designed for use with the cables hanging down, which is uncomfortable, insecure, and adds cable noise. with channel swap one can reverse them and use them over the ear |
| 20:43:11 | dfkt | like radius ddm, jays q-jays, etc |
| 20:43:22 | saratoga | ah yes, i had a pair of sony headphones like that years ago |
| 20:43:43 | amiconn | jhMikeS, saratoga: Depending how the stereo mixing stage is implemented, adding channel swap should be easy |
| 20:44:14 | | Quit kugel (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:44:19 | saratoga | i'm actually surprised it doesn't already |
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| 20:44:39 | amiconn | The MAS has a stereo matrix with 4 values, L -> L gain, R -> R gain, L -> R gain and R -> L gain |
| 20:44:43 | saratoga | a gain of 0 and a cross of 1 ought to flip the channels (although with substantially more overhead then pointer swapping) |
| 20:44:53 | dfkt | if the channel swap patch gets committed, i would think it would be better to put it above karaoke mode in the list menu, below the mono modes. karaoke is rather "special", while swap is more related to regular channel modes |
| 20:44:55 | amiconn | Channel swap means just swapping the straight gains with the cross gains |
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| 20:45:40 | amiconn | dfkt: Making it a mode in that list doesn't make sense. It should be a separate option that can be used in conjunction with any of these modes |
| 20:45:52 | | Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) |
| 20:45:54 | saratoga | amiconn: while I have your attention, another dsp related question: I'd like to add L/R volume balance to the DSP engine |
| 20:46:03 | amiconn | (technically it doesn't make sense for karaoke and pure mono though) |
| 20:46:23 | saratoga | right now its done in hardware, which has some drawbacks (e.g. RAAA) |
| 20:46:39 | dfkt | using it in conjunction with mono mode doesn't make much sense either, methinks? |
| 20:46:41 | jhMikeS | sort of does in karaoke since one channel is the inverse of the other |
| 20:46:44 | saratoga | i'm guessing this is because the dsp code evolved from hwcodec? |
| 20:47:38 | jhMikeS | why add volume balance to the DSP engine |
| 20:47:40 | jhMikeS | ? |
| 20:48:44 | saratoga | so that it works on devices that can't do it in hardware (e.g. RAAA, various line out ports, etc) |
| 20:49:04 | | Quit advcomp2019 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 20:49:08 | jhMikeS | ahh, nvm. it'd be better done in the pcm driver (as well as sw volume control) |
| 20:49:27 | saratoga | also i kind of dislike doing it in hardware in general just because it means that on some devices you'll get different outputs between the line out and headphone jack which is kind of confusing |
| 20:49:39 | dfkt | yeah, balance on RaaA would be awesome... my ears are imbalanced, and i have to use a bridged inline volume control to get balanced sound |
| 20:49:40 | amiconn | Why can't raaa do it in hardware? It's just outside rockbox... |
| 20:49:43 | saratoga | right now its kind of random weather or not balance will actually do anything depending on which device and output you're using |
| 20:50:33 | * | amiconn actually prefers using the hardware controls over software where possible |
| 20:51:07 | saratoga | yeah thats what i was going to ask you, whats your preferred way to handle this on devices like the X5 where the headphone jack does balance but the line out jack does not |
| 20:51:44 | saratoga | i'm leaning towards just doing software on devices where not all outputs can handle it in hardware so that output is consistent |
| 20:52:33 | amiconn | Well line out is line out - it shouldn't be affected by any of the sound controls imo |
| 20:53:08 | saratoga | it shouldn't be affected by volume adjustments, but balance is something else |
| 20:53:28 | saratoga | you might reasonably have a stereo where you need more power on one side of the room then the other |
| 20:53:50 | saratoga | just as you might want more power at lower frequencies, etc |
| 20:54:02 | amiconn | Line shouldn't be affected by balance, tone controls, volume, anything |
| 20:54:24 | saratoga | and EQ? |
| 20:54:45 | amiconn | Same (not possible with sw eq, unfortunately) |
| 20:55:04 | saratoga | could you explain that point of view to me? |
| 20:55:13 | amiconn | Line out is for connecting better equipment. If you feed the signal to an amp for listening in a large room and you need to adjust balance, you should do so using the amp controls |
| 20:55:22 | amiconn | Same for tone etc |
| 20:55:50 | amiconn | The controls on the device are for listening using the built-in amplifier |
| 20:56:19 | saratoga | its relatively unlikely that built in controls are any better though for a great many of these things |
| 20:56:25 | saratoga | if they are even available |
| 20:56:43 | saratoga | e.g. how many speaker docks have a parametric eq? |
| 20:57:05 | amiconn | If the amp doesn't have its own control, it should be connected to headphone out instead of line out |
| 20:57:11 | amiconn | *controls |
| 20:57:43 | saratoga | but line out makes more sense since it won't be affected by volume control |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:04 | saratoga | basically on these devices line out is just headphone out with fixed volume (and sometimes a dock connector) and higher impedance so its not clear to me why we should be telling users which one they should be using for a given task, imo we should try and make them work the same and let each user pick the right one for a job |
| 21:01:42 | amiconn | If line out doesn't respond to volume controls but other sound controls, that's inconsistent |
| 21:02:02 | saratoga | its consistent with what a line out is supposed to do |
| 21:02:16 | amiconn | nope |
| 21:02:18 | saratoga | its supposed to be an output with fixed level and impedance |
| 21:02:24 | saratoga | nothing more, nothing less |
| 21:02:33 | amiconn | A line out should supply a linear signal response |
| 21:02:45 | saratoga | so should all outputs |
| 21:02:55 | amiconn | no |
| 21:02:59 | saratoga | a nonlinear response would be useless in audio |
| 21:03:26 | amiconn | Tone controls aren't linear |
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| 21:03:55 | saratoga | technically frequency adjustmnet is linear, but i suspect thats not what you're trying to tell me |
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| 21:04:50 | amiconn | Imo the rule is simple. If one person listens using the built-in headphone output and (an)other person(s) listens using an amplifier connected to line out. Person #1 adjusting tone/ volume/ balance shouldn't affect the others |
| 21:04:53 | saratoga | basically you're saying that line out should disable as much of the effects as possible rather then expect the user to pick the correct settings himself? |
| 21:05:40 | saratoga | while i can see how that would be useful in some cases, I don't think thats a good idea in general |
| 21:06:33 | amiconn | That's how any line out is supposed to work, otherwise it should not be called line out |
| 21:06:42 | saratoga | i also disagree that theres any expectation that a line out will somehow have less processing then a headphone out (or any other output) |
| 21:10:03 | amiconn | What if person #2 is not actually a person, but e.g. a recording device? Okay, analog recording is probably not used often these days, but sometimes it still is... |
| 21:10:32 | amiconn | The same reasoning applies to digital outputs, btw |
| 21:13:30 | amiconn | I'm not saying that an adjustable output doesn't make sense, but it should not be limited to this mode, because it reduces versatility |
| 21:13:53 | amiconn | Also if it's called line out it should not default to adjustable mode |
| 21:16:00 | dfkt | as far as i know, mp3 player manufacturers use the line-out definition rather loosely anyways. i don#t know of any device that puts out -10dbV or 0.3 VRMS |
| 21:18:24 | saratoga | amiconn: if an analog device is hooked up I expect it to record what I hear, transmitted at the correct level and impedance |
| 21:18:50 | saratoga | i don't think line output typically work in the way you seem to imply they should |
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| 21:28:15 | amiconn | Nearly all lineouts I dealt with so far do work that way |
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| 21:48:48 | saratoga | amiconn: which devices are you thinking of? |
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| 22:05:10 | webguest15 | Will the new <8and temporarily reverted) swap channels feature allow to change the deepness? I.e. combine "custom" and "swap"? |
| 22:05:45 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 22:07:50 | * | jhMikeS was arguing in that direction that it should and be a separate setting if anything |
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| 22:27:41 | Darko | Hi |
| 22:27:54 | Darko | can someone help me how to start new Wiki page? |
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| 22:28:28 | | Join wodz [0] (~wodz@87-206-240-131.dynamic.chello.pl) |
| 22:29:01 | wodz | jhMikeS: Is it correct that playback is always 44.1kHz and anything else is resampled? |
| 22:29:40 | Darko | I want to create page that branches from this section |
| 22:29:42 | Darko | http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/Main/SansaAMS#Unbricking |
| 22:30:38 | wodz | Darko: you start new wiki page by entering correct wiki address which does not exist yet |
| 22:31:08 | Darko | ok thanks |
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| 22:52:31 | Darko | alright, the core page has been created with some basic editing, still needs formating of pictures and url's |
| 22:52:32 | Darko | http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaClipV2UnbrickingTutorial |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).