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#rockbox log for 2012-05-04

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02:56:54Mir♪┏(・o・)┛♪┗ ( ・o・) ┓♪┏ ( ) ┛♪┗ (・o・ ) ┓♪┏(・o・)┛♪
03:01:03marazbehold, a virtual cave painting.
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04:06:21JdGordonoh ffs.. spam in the tracker :/
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04:47:08NotJimCarreygot 4 more steam keys if anyone wants em. alien shooter 1 & 2, steel storm: burning retribution, & really big sky
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05:54:41 Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@unaffiliated/saint/x-8516940)
05:58:58kisakyesterday I bumped my fuze v2 to 3.11.2, tried the usb mode controlled by rockbox, when I pulled the usb cable, it white screened and has been on a slow discharge since
05:59:13kisakthe 30 second power button hold did nothing
05:59:40kisakany idea how long the fuze v2 takes to discharge from a full charge?
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06:15:55funmanif the screen is on half a day
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12:10:31n1sIs there any way to trigger a buflib alloc to move?
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12:11:32gevaertsn1s: IIRC there's (possibly only if you use the right compile-time options) a debug menu entry to free an early allocation which has the effect of moving all others
12:15:10n1si'm thinking of syncing an rbcodec patch that abstracts out buflib allocs from tdspeed and it's nice to be able to test
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14:33:28 Quit mikroflops (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:34:28amiconn[20:12:10] <wodz> I wonder why do we have *a lot of* long and unsigned long in fat.c. On our targets it is the same as int and unsigned int. <= These are remnants from the calmrisc16 porting effort. You will find such things in many other places as well. It doesn't hurt to keep them, in case there will be another 16 bit porting effort.
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15:15:17n1samiconn: except when it hurts
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15:29:40gevaertsamiconn: I'd say we should use int32_t then
15:46:38 Join andai [0] (
15:48:56andaiis there any progress happening around iPod classic? I read something a few years ago about apple making it difficult/impossible to load new firmware on it, but that seems to have been overcome?
15:49:37n1sandai: rockbox works on the classic
15:49:46n1sit's a bit tricky to install
15:50:14andaiit says to use emCORE
15:50:24andaiis that an alternative iPod OS on its own?
15:50:49n1syes, emcore can then start rockbox
15:52:54copperI didn't manage to install emCORE under Windows 7, it was much easier under linux
15:53:30copperanyway, I can attest that Rockbox runs pretty nicely on the Classic
15:54:23andaicopper: any issues with stability or battery life?
15:54:30n1scopper: you know that the classic build is built by the buildsystem, right?
15:54:30copperstability no
15:54:36copperI'm still evaluating battery life
15:54:47TheSevenn1s: that's a stability-patched build I think
15:55:03andaicopper: How long do you get on average? I used to have ridiculously long times with my iPod Classic 120GB
15:55:06n1sTheSeven: stability patched how?
15:55:11andai[ with the uh, original fw ]
15:55:36TheSevenandai: I'd estimate ~25h with the original firmware, ~15-20h with rockbox
15:55:38copperandai: I installed it only recently, so I can't give you a figure yet
15:55:42TheSevenso a bit less, but still plenty
15:56:00copperandai: apparently you can use Musepack to increase playback battery life
15:56:15TheSevenn1s: I think it has some nasty hack for that IRQ mode mutex deadlock bug
15:56:26n1sTheSeven: i thought the stability issues were taken care of
15:56:28TheSevenI've been a bit out of the loop recently, no idea if a fix for that was ever committed
15:56:54TheSeveni only saw some discussion on the ML with a lot of arguing and no clear decision on the right way to fix it
15:56:54n1scopper: what are the changes in the build you linked?
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15:57:19TheSevenuser890104: does that happen to be your build?
15:57:44andai"musepack is fast" −−> less cpu cycles −−> longer battery life?
15:57:56copperandai: yes
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15:58:16TheSevenandai: if that speed is bought by bigger files then it's not so clear
15:58:17copperTheSeven: yeah he uses the same on
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15:58:30TheSevenbecause the HDD will be spinning for a higher percentage of time
15:58:35andaiwhat was the main challenge in getting cutom firmware on the iPod classic, and how was it overcome?
15:58:46copperMusepack −−insane is smaller than AAC/MP3 256
15:58:49andai[ and how long ago? I, too have been out of the loop :/
15:59:09TheSevenandai: well they did all hell of firmware signing stuff to prevent us from executing custom code
15:59:17TheSevenand there is no documentation on these chips at all
15:59:18n1sTheSeven:;a=commit;h=7ec426e this was committed and i thought it should fix the random crashes, i never experienced them myself
15:59:35TheSevenah, right
15:59:56TheSevenso he found a way to circumvent the "i2c in irq mode" issue as a whole
16:00:09n1sTheSeven: yeah it seems so
16:00:10TheSeventhat might indeed mean that master is just as stable now
16:00:24TheSevenbut that build probably had some more patches, like enabling clock/voltage scaling
16:00:36TheSevenif that has proven to work well we could apply it to master as well
16:00:45n1sso that linked build is just a custom build with a couple of patches from gerrit and some further undervolting it seems
16:01:04TheSevenand probably even some older fix for that hold switch bug
16:01:16andaiwhat are the main power consumers on an iPod? backlight, cpu, phones output?
16:01:36TheSevenmostly hdd, cpu/memory, backlight
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16:02:04n1si'm just a bit reluctant telling users to use custom builds without motivation, that's why i was curious
16:02:15copperyou can go even for Musepack −−standard and probably be fine (180 kbps)
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16:02:49saratogawasn't the clock voltage stuff already committed?
16:02:57n1ssaratoga: yeah
16:03:10andaiI've long dreamed of an iPod classic sized device with the hard drive replaced by a larger battery and MicroSDHC cards ( You'd need 5 to match the original storage )
16:03:21coppern1s: btw, I didn't see the classic build linked from the website
16:03:32TheSevenandai: actually, with a lot of hacking, that might be possible
16:03:33n1scopper: the link isn't visible
16:03:58andaiTheSeven: *this* is what I want to do when I grow up :D
16:04:18TheSeventhose ipods do in fact have an SD controller
16:04:38coppern1s: which is why I downloaded the dropbox build
16:04:44TheSeventhey talk an sd-card like protocol to one particular hdd model
16:04:47TheSevencalled CE-ATA
16:04:47n1si don't quite remember why it's hidden, probably due to the "unusable" status
16:05:17n1sperhaps it's time to move it up to unstable
16:05:31andaiThis is perhaps more of a general question, but how can I transition from being someone who writes basic php into someone who writes iPod firmware?
16:05:34TheSevenn1s: IMO we need a better installation method for that
16:05:46TheSevenandai: that's a steep learning curve
16:05:51coppern1s: it's definitely usable
16:05:55copperthe build I got anyway
16:06:10Zagorn1s: yes, we only list stable and unstable builds for download. not the "unusable" ones.
16:06:12n1sTheSeven: maybe, that does seem to be the remaining big issue.
16:06:17TheSevencopper: the installation method is the part that isn't really usable
16:06:21saratogai think that dropbox build is just more EQ bands and gordon's file system patch
16:06:48andaiTheSeven I think (hope) it fits within a broader category of programming skills, my other interests include networking and AI :D
16:06:59Zagorsomeone should add that info to the web page...
16:07:23TheSevenandai: well, you'll need quite a lot of hardware-level background knowledge
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16:09:11andaiTheSeven: i'm not sure where to begin
16:09:27TheSevenassembly language programming (or more importantly reading disassemblies of apple code), generally some good knowledge of the ARM architecture, some knowledge of commonly used communication protocols/interfaces, a bit system-on-chip design can't hurt
16:11:18ZagorTheSeven: well, that's what you need for reverse-engineering. for just contributing to rockbox you don't have to be an expert in all those areas.
16:13:00andaiZagor, TheSeven: Maybe I can start out by redesigning things like this
16:13:29Zagorandai: that is one way to contribute, but it doesn't really get you any closer to programming for your ipod
16:13:47andaiTheSeven: Does your profession involve much of the knowledge and skills associated with contributing to Rockbox?
16:13:54TheSevennot at all
16:13:58TheSeveni'm still a student :)
16:14:12TheSevenbut I plan to be working in that area once i finish university
16:14:21andai:O what are you studying? I need to decide what to study at university in the next few months
16:14:26TheSevencomputer science
16:14:53andaithat does seem to be what i keep coming back to...
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16:15:27andaithat and a bit of applied math
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16:16:52andaiThis might be a strange question, is the rockbox/ipodclassic install tricky because it's tricky, or has it not yet been made easy because it's not release-ready yet?
16:17:22copperboth, from what I can tell
16:19:20andaioh, the guide says i need iTunes ( at least, that having iTunes will allow me to take the easier path ). Does 32/64bit matter?
16:19:34coppernah you don't need iTunes
16:20:11andaiA] Install iTunes B] Install a custom device driver for the iPod (advanced users only)
16:20:18copperand the easier path for me wasn't what they said it would be
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16:21:08copperI did it under linux (without iTunes obviously)
16:21:22coppercouldn't make it work under Windows 7, both with and without iTunes
16:21:45copperI tried under windows first because I figured it would be easier
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16:34:57andaiSo I am following this guide and i got to the step where i have the iPod in recovery mode and it shows a UMSBoot partition
16:35:44andaishould i keep following the guide and then do something later to get rockbox on it as well? ( Heads up, I don't really know what I am doing, but I did once successfully follow a guide and replaced my linux tablet's firmware )
16:36:19copperthe guide says it all
16:36:20andaiahh nevermind, the later steps mention and explain Rockbox
16:36:21copperfollow it
16:36:45copperI guess you got more luck than I did
16:37:01copperI don't know what was wrong with my Windows setup
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16:44:23andaicopper: How far did you get following the guide on windows?
16:45:07copperI couldn't get it to boot in recovery mode
16:45:45copper"The display of your iPod should now stay black, and a new USB device called "Apple Recovery (DFU) USB Driver" should connect to your PC."
16:45:51copperI couldn't get that to happen
16:46:01andaicopper: Working great so far! copying the .rockbox you sent me now
16:46:56andaicopper: Did you run the utility? I held menu+select until reboot, and kept holding until drive turned off again ( black ), then I ran the
16:47:32andaioh wow i think i'm done. just need to reboot it now
16:48:02copperyeah it didn't work
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16:48:29copperbut good for you :)
16:50:36coppergot to go
16:50:48copperhappy rockboxing!
16:50:51andaiok! thanks a lot :)
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17:01:43andaium... how do i get to mainmenu? I am stuck in wormlet
17:01:55 Part Zagor
17:02:49AlexPandai: The manual should have the key mapping for plugins
17:03:10TheSevenandai: which exact apple processes did you kill?
17:03:28TheSevenseveral people have been running into issues with that, because our instructions apparently aren't perfectly clear
17:03:51TheSevenit would be nice if we could get feedback from someone for whom it actually worked what exactly he needed to do
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17:04:48TheSevenmost of us have never used itunes, so our instructions on that step are a bit vague
17:08:05 Quit factor (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:08:52andaiTheSeven: I killed AppleMobileDeviceService.exe and iTunesHelper. AppleMobileDeviceService started again when I plugged my iPod in ( forgot to do that first ) so i killed it again
17:09:22TheSevennothing called "ipodservice" interfering with that?
17:10:09andaiI thought for a second that I should go check if there's any apple services running, but I thought I'd just try what the guide said first, and it didn't mention that ( and it wasn't a problem apparently )
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17:22:00SundiverHello Guys!
17:22:04 Join y4n [0] (~y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx)
17:22:45SundiverWhere I can read about difference between old theme format and new ones
17:23:30SundiverI have theme that worked fine in 3.9 but doesn't in 3.10
17:23:49Sundiver3.11, sorry
17:25:37 Join factor [0] (
17:27:23[Sinner]Sundiver: um...apart from reading individual commits that touch skin related stuff in the source, there isn't such a thing really.
17:27:34andaiHey! Easy question! Where should I put my music? /music/ or /.rockbox/music ?
17:27:58[Sinner]But you can try running your theme in a simulator, and it should tell you what's wrong.
17:27:59Torneanywhere you like, but it will be inconvenient to access it if you put it in .rockbox
17:28:03Tornebecause that's a hidden folder
17:28:09andaiAhh thx
17:28:23Tornealso, the database doesn't scan in there.
17:28:33saratogahas the database format changed recently?
17:28:36saratogasorry, theme format
17:29:01[Sinner]Not drastically so, no.
17:29:19[Sinner]I can't immediately think of a breaking change.
17:29:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:29:48[Sinner]But a sim will give debug output, and say what's wrong.
17:29:58[Sinner]Or at least give a clue.
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17:39:41SundiverBut behavior changed, so it should be documented?
17:41:04n1sThe current behaviour us documented, every breaking change isn't as such but the changes will be noted in the commit messages and should be fairly easy to spot
17:41:08SundiverAll my bitmaps stopped to work, it means battery indicator, progress bars
17:41:22SundiverOk, I see
17:43:06[Sinner]I can think of one breaking change, actually...%x can't be used outside of a viewport anymore since a few weeks ago or so.
17:44:02[Sinner]That's all I can immediately think of, but like I said, download the simulator for your device and run the theme in there.
17:44:07SundiverA-ha. Thanks!
17:44:38gevaertsWas that changed before 3.11?
17:45:28[Sinner]gevaerts: I'm not time may be off, its just the last breaking change I could think of.
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17:48:55SundiverMy theme works ok in simulator, bitmaps just don't reflect changes
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18:05:59pamauryomg, just had a look at how the zen x-fi3 send bluetooth commands over uart and it seems to use a text based protocol :-o
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18:24:44andaiHello #rockbox. Today I installed Rockbox on my iPod Classic 160GB. So far I am very happy! I will be keeping track of my experiences and ideas :)
18:24:56*andai goes and plays with the audio settings
18:26:34andaifinally another audio player that lets you adjust speed :D
18:27:31FOADFor when you're in a hurry?
18:30:46andaiFOAD: When I got bored of my music i'd just set it to 80% or 120% speed, so it would sound like it was being played in a different key
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18:32:17andaido i need to rescan all my files when i add new music?
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18:41:28copper<TheSeven> nothing called "ipodservice" interfering with that?
18:41:35copperI had that one running, had to kill it
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18:45:41andain1s: I mean with the database, does that just detect filesystem changes
18:50:54AlexPandai: If you set automatic update or whatever it is called to on
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18:51:29AlexPThe manual would be really good for you to have a look at by the way. I don't know if there is one for the classic, but for everything but install the ipod video one should be close enough for most things
18:55:59copperthat's what I use
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18:57:55andaithanks, i'll take a look
19:06:50andaithere seems to be a hardware limitation on how low the volume can go
19:07:41andai-60 = "no sound" icon = quiet but still audible
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19:56:51copperandai: do you want to listen to music that low though? :)
20:02:27gevaertsWhy not?
20:02:43copperbecause… you can barely hear anything?
20:04:00gevaertsMany people like using the sleep timer in combination with an extremely low volume
20:13:10andaigevaerts: copper: I have ridiculously expensive ( = sensitive ) in-ear earphones and on most devices the volume doesn't really go low enough... i guess the simplest solution would just be to solder to resistors into the cable lol
20:13:30copperthat's an unusual problem!
20:13:41copperdo you get channel imbalance at such low volumes?
20:13:49andaiand i notice at night my hearing gets 10x more sensitive so i turn the volume down
20:14:00andaior there's less background noise to fight against
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20:14:29andaicopper: I don't think i've ever had that
20:15:34copperit's allegedly a problem with some lower quality equipment
20:15:46copperI was wondering if the iPod suffered from it
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21:29:13pixelmadid someone decide that we don't need the "who brings which player(s) table" this time?
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21:29:31pixelmaon the DevCon page that is ;)
21:29:43gevaertsI tend to doubt its usefulness :)
21:30:50pixelmaalright, I was just asking. I don't mind much either way
21:37:28scorche|sha more useful table to replace it with would be a "what beer we are bringing and which ones are wanted"
21:37:33scorche|shand chocolate
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22:03:57n1sandai: you can apply a precut (negative gain) with the EQ to lower the volume further
22:04:37n1si don't know if we could make the dac go lower, in some there are multiple gain settings that can be used
22:05:12copperI'm surprised it goes down to -60 dB
22:05:26copperthe spec for the chip says "Analog Volume Control (+12 to -55 dB in 1 dB steps)"
22:05:51copperthough it also says "Master Volume Control (+12 to -102 dB in 0.5 dB steps)"
22:06:04n1sit probably has a digital gain too
22:06:37n1sso by combining the two you can get a larger range (as i said above :))
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22:08:57saratogaits not digital gain, its the mixer gain
22:09:23saratogatheres basically two amps, one right after the DAC in the mixer, and another in the headphone amplifier
22:09:45saratogathe mixer one impacts everything, line out, headphone, ADC, while the headphone one is just for the headphone port
22:10:04saratogausually you can stack them to get huge gain range, although who knows how well the system really works at extremely low voltages
22:10:27copperwhich one does rockbox control?
22:11:23n1scopper: depends on which dac (driver) it is
22:11:56n1ssaratoga: i'm sure i've seen digital gain for some dac we have, might be the one in the beast (it has an eq too...)
22:12:50saratogawhat would be the point of that? you can apply digital gain just by shifting your samples
22:12:54saratogano need for hardware support
22:17:12copperwouldn't that increase / decrease volume by a full 6 dB?
22:18:06saratogadoes that matter?
22:18:08n1ssaratoga: it claims to have "DAC digital Vol" which goes from -127dB to 0 in 0.5 steps but it's a bit unclear how it's done
22:18:34saratogai assume that means digitally controlled volume, not that its taking your samples and then automatically shifting them for you
22:18:43saratogaat least i hope thats what its doing, the other way is kind of crappy
22:18:52saratoga-127dB on 16 bit audio is less then mute!
22:19:20copperChuck Norris could still hear it
22:19:26saratoga(although i suppose they could do 60dB of analog control and 70dB of digital or something like that)
22:21:00saratogathe only device i've seen that I know does digital volume control is the ingenic chips, but they don't do it in the dac, they make the sound card driver implement it
22:24:57n1scopper: from a quick glance it seems the driver for the cirrus dac in the classic is only adjusting hp volume so it's possible there's some other gain setting that caould mgive larger range
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22:28:20TheLemonManhrm any usb guru in here ?
22:28:40copperif there are, I'm interested
22:28:50copperI have a question too
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22:31:46copperHum, another question: I'm charging my iPod over USB, the numeric battery indicator on my iPod reads 100, can I trust that the battery is fully charged?
22:31:50TheLemonManalso, what does button_get_w_tmo do ?
22:33:40copperI read something about the battery indicator being some kind of a guess presently
22:34:23gevaertsTheLemonMan: usb is a large area
22:36:38TheLemonManI have some issues with this ARC controller, the kernel sees it but cant read the descriptors
22:37:18n1shmm, there's a master volume setting in the cirrus but our driver uses that only for prescaling the volume for the tone controls
22:40:59saratogais there a datasheet for it?
22:43:38copper20:06:01 UTC <copper>
22:47:27saratogathat does look like it does digital volume in the mixer
22:49:06saratogaoh, its not actually meant for volume control, its meant to allow you to adjust the relative volume of channels before digital effects and mixing
22:49:09saratogai guess that makes sense
23:00:11copperI just tried playing FLACs at 16 bit / 48 kHz, 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.2 and 24/96, all worked. Does rockbox do automatic sample rate conversion?
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23:04:14copperhum, I guess it does
23:04:27coppersince the chip allegedly only supports up to 48 kHz
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23:04:58n1scopper: yeah rockbox resamples to 44.1kHz
23:04:59saratogayes, everything is converted to 44.1khz
23:05:14coppereven 48 kHz?
23:05:18copperto 44.1?
23:06:34copperand to 16 bit I assume?
23:07:53n1syeah samples are truncated or dithered to 16 bit
23:08:59saratogado we use 16 bit on the classic?
23:10:04n1sdon't we always?
23:10:33saratogaah yeah looks like it
23:10:48saratogathe dac supports 24 bit so i guess we could pass it 24 bit samples if it made a difference
23:10:55saratogaprobably not worth it though
23:11:06copperit would only get you audiophile cred
23:12:51copperbut I'm guessing audiophiles would still use external DACs
23:12:54n1ssome other dacs alos support 24 but i think that it makes i2s transfers take twice the time as 16 bit samples can be packed or something so the cost is not insignificant while the gain is questionable
23:15:03n1si guess that depends on limitations in the hardware
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23:27:00andai1hmm, at some point i'll re-download my music in a lossless format and convert to musepack
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23:31:54copperandai1: rip your CDs in the mean time?
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23:42:16AlexPcopper: Although our resampler isn't very good
23:43:25copperAlexP: it would be nice to at least feed the DAC what it supports, i.e. 48 kHz
23:44:00copperdon't pretty much all chips support both 44.1 and 48 kHz?
23:44:11AlexPI don't know the details, but IIUC that would require rewriting large parts that assume 44.1
23:44:14AlexPBut yeah
23:44:21gevaertscopper: now implement crossfade on that system :)
23:44:32coppergevaerts: is that a problem?
23:44:46copperrhetorical question
23:44:48gevaertsCrossfading two tracks with different sample rates?
23:44:56copperyeah ok
23:45:47copperdidn't think of that
23:48:17copperI guess 48 kHz would be useful for some music DVD rips
23:48:25copperDVD-Video not DVD-Audio
23:48:47saratogawe talked about this recently
23:48:55AlexPYou're better off resampling on your PC atm
23:49:01copperand I guess you could refrain from crossfading when two consecutive tracks don't have matching sampling rates
23:49:03saratogathe conclusion was that it wasn't worthwhile to allow multiple sampling rates
23:49:20saratogaalthough it might make sense to have the choice of which sampling rate everything gets converted to be up to the user
23:49:54AlexPsaratoga: There was also talk of resampling recently wasn't there? Anything come of that?
23:49:57saratogaalthough i imagine that might do some harm when people look at it and say "durrr higher is better"
23:50:09saratogawell i want to work on it, but have no time at the moment :)
23:50:17AlexPheh, OK :)
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