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#rockbox log for 2012-05-15

00:00:21 Quit factor (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:01:09CtcpPing from gevaerts!~fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
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03:41:44 Join saratoga [0] (980329b4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
03:41:58saratogahmm, my clip just froze with the power off screen on during idle time out
03:42:10saratogajhMikeS: did you see the resampler question on the forums?
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03:49:46 Join tchan [0] (~tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan)
03:50:24 Join rocktriangle [0] (~trollingz@
03:51:45rocktriangleCould anyone tell me or give me a recommended guide of how to charge a device properly?
03:52:54saratogajust plug it in
03:53:53 Quit bitcraft (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
03:53:56rocktriangleAt any time?
03:54:26rocktriangleWhether the battery is at half capacity or 1/4?
03:54:38saratogadoesn't matter
03:54:41[Saint]Yes, modern batteries couldn't care less.
03:54:52[Saint]"battery memory" is a thing of the past.
03:55:46rocktriangleWell I didn't want to hurt the battery's feelings.
03:56:23rocktriangleWhat about charging?
03:56:50rocktriangleIs it true that in the first 20-40 minutes is when the majority of the battery is charged?
03:57:19saratogait charges at lot faster up to ~70% capacity
03:57:25saratogathe last 30% takes much longer
03:57:49rocktriangleYes, that's what I've read.
03:58:26rocktriangleHence why the faster charging USB ports in adapters is a gimick.
03:58:50saratogadepends how big the battery is
03:59:24rocktriangleHow would laptop batters differ from DMP/PMP batteries?
03:59:33saratogaif its greater then 1000mah, then you will probably charge faster off a higher power charger (or alternatively charge at the same speed by running a USB port above its rated power)
03:59:58saratoga(very roughly at least)
04:00:25rocktriangleYes but usually USB adapters that plug into walls are meant for small devices.
04:00:51saratogausually they're meat for cell phones, which are actually higher power then USB ports
04:01:31rocktriangleOh, I didn't notice that mistake.
04:01:59rocktriangleIf they're meat for cellphones then I better serve it with bits and bytes
04:03:01rocktriangleAnd one unrelated question.
04:03:18rocktriangleIs rockbox one of a kind invention?
04:03:26saratogadepends what you mean by that
04:03:52rocktriangleAre there other rockboxes out there that are under a different name for DMPs and PMPs?
04:04:27saratogathere are other open source firmwares for various devices, but none are related to us
04:04:50rocktriangleWhat do you mean by related?
04:04:54[Saint]Its an open source project, anyone is welcome to cherry-pick the code and make what they want from it.
04:05:07saratogasee for example XBMC, ipodlinux, android, openwrt
04:06:05rocktriangleandroid is open source?!
04:06:10jhMikeSsaratoga: hope I actually helped :)
04:06:19[Saint]rocktriangle: ....yes.
04:06:32[Saint]I'm not entirely sure why that's surprising.
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04:07:53rocktriangleWell I haven't been much into technology nowadays so I wouldn't have known. Although I guess you're right since they managed to get android market on teh Cowon j3
04:08:11saratogathe android market actually insn't open source, but android the firmware is
04:08:42saratogayou can tell android is open source though because it ends up on random things like cowon mp3 players rather then cell phones
04:09:15rocktriangleYes, that's how I came to the conclusion since the market was not available for the PMP but thanks to the tweaking of individuals, it now is
04:09:29rocktrianglefor that PMP*
04:09:47rocktriangleWait what?
04:09:49rocktriangleEnds up?
04:10:15rocktriangleWhat do you mean by that? It's not its there by the decision of the user. The people of cowon put it there.
04:10:47[Saint]And they used Android sources to do so.
04:10:50rocktriangleI'm guessing you're saying that the people of cowon were able to tweak it so it can function in the player, thus it beign open source
04:11:14[Saint]this is getting really off-topic.
04:16:44rocktriangleWell thank you for informing me about the battery issue.
04:17:12rocktriangleLooking back at the chat logs, it's something I've really been concerned about.
04:17:45rocktriangleWell then, Have a good day Saint and Saratoga
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04:54:32jhMikeSlcd_fillrect seems to have a bug where it clips incorrectly at the bottom
04:57:23jhMikeSjust watch oscilloscope, it fails to erase the bottom pixel
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06:43:09[Saint]JdGordon: what's the "proper" way I should handle this situation, do you think?
06:43:12[Saint] I was accomodating for a situation where the .sbs may or may not be a: wanted, or b: loaded, so the theme's .cfg declares a backdrop in /base-dir/backdrops/, but the .sbs uses its own backdrop (that doesn't include the Rockbox logo, which wopuld be covered by the 'control panel') from /base-dir/wps/cabbiev2/.
06:43:32[Saint]I guess what I'm asking is, should the theme .cfg declare the backdrop, or the .sbs?
06:44:57[Saint]Not catering for a situation where the .sbs isn't loaded allows me to remove a backdrop, which is anywhere from ~600Kb to ~2MB, so its a fairly significant saving.
06:55:48[Saint]I guess the theme .cfg should be declaring the backdrop?
06:58:11[Saint]I was declaring a backdrop in the theme .cfg which was slightly different (included the standard Rockbox logo), but I was also declaring a backdrop in the .sbs (without the Rockbox logo) also. This was for a situation where someone might want to 'mix-and-match' themes, or if the .sbs failed to load for some reason.
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08:40:45 Join ks [0] (
08:41:50kshello :)
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08:56:25[Saint]ks: Hi, if you have a question which is Rockbox related...please ask it.
08:57:01kshey [Saint], no question, just saying hi :)
08:57:13[Saint]If you just want to lurk around, that's fine too. But if you want a social channel, this isn't it ;)
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09:01:16 Join rocktriangle [0] (~trollingz@
09:03:21rocktriangleI'd like to know where my music would go with rockbox installed if the player's storage has reached the limit. Would it go into the micro SD?
09:03:49[Saint]It goes to the drive you put it in.
09:04:29rocktriangleWell since I haven't bothered yet to find another media player, I still use the chunky windows media player
09:04:51rocktriangleAll it says is that the music is synced to the player.
09:05:36[Saint]It should mount as two drives, and WMP should give you the option of syncing to either.
09:05:40rocktriangleAlthough these questions can be avoided by buying a micro SD and experimenting, but I'd like to know ahead of time to see whether or it'll hapen.
09:05:43 Join einhirn [0] (
09:05:59[Saint]Well, now you do.
09:06:37rocktriangleHad I used the original firmware, would the scenario be the same?
09:07:18rocktriangleI assume so, but I'd like your opinion.
09:10:43[Saint]Thyat may or may not depend on whether or not MTP or MSC is used.
09:13:33 Join ender` [0] (
09:14:24[Saint]You should have the device in MSC (mass storage class), in whice case both volumes will show, and any media player should give you the option of syncing to either volume.
09:15:30[Saint]I should not, however, that no media player is necessary and that Rockbox will happily let you "drag & drop" to either volume.
09:15:36[Saint]*should note
09:16:41rocktriangleI never dared to experiment because I fear that by not using a media player, it won't categorize the music by artists.
09:16:49rocktriangleOr by any other category.
09:17:04rocktriangleIs that not the case?
09:17:20[Saint]If your metadata is adequate, then the database will "just work".
09:17:54[Saint]Obviousloy the database can't sort between album/artist/genre etc. if the metadata tags aren't present.
09:18:05rocktriangleI agree.
09:18:06[Saint]Bah! *obviously
09:18:25rocktriangleI'll take your word for it that it will "just work".
09:18:38rocktriangleI'll buy a microSD sooner or later this week and do it.
09:19:00rocktriangleThanks again Saint for your help, you've been quite a ...............saint.
09:19:40[Saint]You can also (any most of us do) ignore the database completely, and just use the file browser.
09:19:58 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor)
09:20:43[Saint]The file browser doesn't give a crap about the metadata, and if you have your tracks sorted in a sane directory structure (for example /Music/Artist/Album/Track.ext) then navigating the filebrowser is trivial.
09:21:20rocktriangleSo I can't just find the files and throw them in?
09:21:33rocktriangleOtherwise I'd have a mess in the device?
09:22:01[Saint]Oh, of course you can. But that would make navigation quite difficult from the filebrowser alone.
09:22:26rocktriangleI highly doubt I'd be capable of organizing the music in that directory structure since it'll take a month to organize.
09:22:53ks[Saint], oh don't worry, I'm just lurking around just to learn more about Rockbox. My install is working like a charm, but I'm always inclined in learning more about it, and if I can help someone out, that'd be great :)
09:23:52[Saint]rocktriangle: there is quite a few applications available that can provide missing metadata from partially tagged tracks (or even just based on the filename).
09:24:28rocktriangleDo you have any to recommend?
09:24:46rocktriangleOr for that matter, do you know any that are free?
09:25:14[Saint]You'll know if your tags are sufficient or not if you start seeing a bunch of "Unknown Album", "Unknown Artist", etc.
09:25:31[Saint]and: Musicbrainz Picard and Mp3Tag are two that I use personally.
09:25:39[Saint]both free.
09:25:45rocktriangleOh okay, excellent- thank you.
09:26:13rocktriangle98% of my files have the artist and track name.
09:26:37rocktriangleHowever the majority of my files are just files that are thrown into a music folder.
09:26:42rocktriangleWithout any sub folders
09:28:30rocktriangleSo would it be okay to take those files and just throw them in? Or would I still have to use the programs to organize them into sub folders just so rockbox has a easier time looking through them if I were to drag and drop?
09:29:28[Saint]Rockbox doesn't care about the metadata, really. It doesn't make it any harder or easier for Rockbox, it just depends if you care or not.
09:29:48[Saint]If you're unlikely to use the filebrowser, then dumping everything in one folder is fine.
09:30:12rocktriangleOne very last question for today
09:30:36rocktriangleNevermind, the manual should be able to answer.
09:30:58rocktriangleThanks again Saint. I hope you have a good day.
09:31:08[Saint]No problem, and thanks.
09:31:23rocktriangleNo, thank you!
09:31:41 Part rocktriangle
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09:32:11copper<rocktriangle> However the majority of my files are just files that are thrown into a music folder.
09:32:16copperthat's horrible o_O
09:32:42[Saint]copper: you'd be surprised how many people do that, though.
09:34:07[Saint]I have a phobia of untagged files, personally. It literally makes my skin crawl seeing a few hundred "01 - Track 1.mp3" in someone's "all files" playlist in <insert_media_player_here>.
09:34:37copperhow does that happen though
09:34:43copperrippers create directories
09:34:50copperiTunes does it
09:34:54copperpirates do it
09:35:17copperwho/what doesn't?
09:36:01[Saint]ripping a cd, or part thereof, without an internet connection, for instance.
09:36:20[Saint]downloading individual tracks from crappy free .mp3 sites, etc.
09:38:06[Saint]I have even come across people that deliberately take their music *out* of its individual sub-dir and dump it all into one dir because "clicking through all those folders is hard" :-S
09:38:24[Saint]However, this is more *-community chatter.
09:38:24coppershut up!
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09:53:51ksHey actually I do have a quick question
09:54:15ksDo you guys think that a no-name MicroSD card could underperform while playing a FLAC file ?
09:55:05ksi.e it would not be fast enough and I could have a tiny (yet annoying) silence at times
09:55:14copperI'd expect it to be able to read files at 176 kilobytes per second
09:55:27copperand FLACs have lower bitrate than that
09:56:13kshum that's weird then, I think I'll double check to see if it comes from the rip.
09:56:35ksI didn't know FLACs were that "easy" to read. 176 kb/s seems low
09:57:13copperkilobytes though (kB/s), not kilobits (kb/s)
09:57:40copperyour microsd can probably do like a megabyte second
10:00:59ksoh so that's 1408 kb/s, feels a bit more appropriate
10:02:03ksI should benchmark the card too. Since it's a crappy 8GB I got off dx or ebay, it might actually underperform
10:06:29copperFLAC = more like 125 kilobytes/second (1000 kilobits/second)
10:06:35copperand less
10:07:17copperwith 16 bit / 44.1 kHz audio, that is
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11:30:48chkktriso you moved from SVN?
11:36:26Torneyes, quite a while ago :)
11:37:30chkktriand all paches which were in tracker are lost?
11:37:40Torneno, not at all.
11:37:50Tornethey are all exactly where they were.
11:38:02chkktrihow can i reach older tracker then?'s still linked exactly where it was
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11:38:23Torneit has not moved at all
11:38:41chkktrithat's great by i don't have links
11:39:16Tornethe bug tracker is linked from the main page..
11:39:38chkktriuh huh
11:39:48chkktrii clicked patches link first
11:40:28Torneoh, i see; yes, that points at gerrit now, because we don't want people submitting patches to flyspray any more
11:40:37Tornebut all the patches in the bug tracker are still there
11:41:07chkktriyup, and that's great
11:41:23chkktribtw is svn repository still awaibe/maintained?
11:41:35Torneit's been taken down.
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13:53:57m0r0nHey, clip+ question
13:54:04m0r0nWhen on radio, how do you lock?
13:54:16m0r0nSelect + Home isn't doing it for me
14:03:34pixelmayou can't. On the softhold targets, hold is only active in the while playing screen
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14:10:25m0r0nThat's not cool...
14:10:29m0r0nThanks for the reply
14:11:07Zagorhold for radio certainly sounds like it would be useful
14:12:24pixelmait's probably not done yet because the other softhold targets are short of buttons in the radio screen as they also use buttons to start and stop recordings etc.
14:12:43dfktit would generally be nice if the 'home' button on clips would act the same in the radio screen as it does in the wps, ie. if it would let one access the quick screen instead of changing between scan/preset mode
14:13:25pixelmathat's unfortunately not possible on swcodec targets yet (recording radio from the radio screen but leaves some buttons to use
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14:28:38ksI have to confess I never understood why there isn't a global lock on the home button. Like "hold the home button to lock/unlock the device".
14:29:10ksI actually thought there was no lock whatsoever before searching for such an option.
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14:39:26pixelmayou could collect ideas how to improve the keymaps, don't forget though that there are quite a fe functions that are currently accessible and that we strive to be somehat consistent between targets as far as the different amount of keys and their layout allow. But if it's better then I'm sure you can convince someone to implement it this way (to both of you ks and dfkt)
14:41:54kspixelma, what's the best way for me to post this suggestion ?
14:45:47Zagorks: the best way is a patch in
14:46:22ksok cool, I'll see if I can post something there today
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15:22:13kserr I must be blind, but how do I post something ?
15:22:48Torneyou need to check out the source code, modify it, and push the changes back
15:22:59ksoh wow ok
15:23:14ksI'm not a software developper unfortunately :)
15:23:15Tornethe hint was: you should do the actual implementation, not just post a suggestion
15:23:31ksok I misunderstood :D
15:23:47Tornehence "a patch"
15:24:08Torneif it's a patch, people can see clearly exactly what is changing, and what effect it will have
15:24:16Tornewhereas just a suggestion is easy to misinterpret
15:24:42Torneand even if people like a suggestion, *someone* still has to implement it before it can happen :)
15:24:59ksyeah that sounds logical
15:25:14kswell, I'm a web developper, but I guess php won't help me here ;)
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15:43:03Zagorks: you don't have to be just a web developer, you know :-)
15:44:38ksWell, one step at a time as they say
15:45:01ksI'd love to learn a "real" coding language such as C++ or C# one day
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17:37:36funmanTorne: could you take a look at g#239 ? my clip zip doesnt boot with it
17:37:38fs-bluebotGerrit review #239 at,239 : WIP: read-only memory on sansa AMS using MMU by Rafaël Carré (changes/39/239/1)
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17:46:09Tornefunman: what happens?
17:46:32funmani don't know, all i get is a black screen
17:46:42funmanjtag would be useful here
17:47:02Tornedon't enable access checking until boot has progressed enough to panicf() then?
17:47:09Tornethen you'll presumably get to see the fault
17:47:14Torneor at least, potentially :)
17:48:01funmanah it makes sense, thanks for the suggestion
17:48:06Torneyou might not
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17:48:14Tornebut yeah, just leave it set as manager of all domains
17:48:15Torneuntil later on
17:48:31funmannow i just need to dive again in this code as it is weeks old :)
17:48:55Torneactually; have you tried just *not* enabling the protection?
17:49:10Tornei have a sneaky suspicion that it won't boot even that way :p
17:49:19Torneoh. does that work?
17:49:27funmani tested the memory layout without protection and it worked fine back then
17:49:37funmani dont remember which bit exactly i flipped which made it fail tho
17:49:48TorneOne more thought
17:49:57Tornethe boundary between .rodata and .data is not page aligned
17:50:03Tornethis means that you are aliasing part of the data section
17:50:07Tornei.e. mapping it at two different places
17:50:30Tornewhat cpu is this again?
17:50:42TorneThen that would break it also
17:50:42funmani plan to work on mapping later tho
17:50:51TorneRight, but i mean: that can break the cache
17:50:55Tornearmv5 cache is virtually indexed
17:51:04Torneso, i fyou have two virtual addresses that map the same memory
17:51:08Tornethey can exist in two separate cache lines
17:51:13Torneif something touches the right addresses
17:51:17Tornewell, wrong addresses
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17:51:52Torneon armv5 you shouldn't ever map the same page at two different addresses
17:51:56funmanthat means i could try with caches disabled
17:52:09Tornedisabling the dcache should check that
17:52:12TorneAnyway, that may not be it
17:52:17Tornebut you should still be careful not to do that
17:52:27Tornepage-align the mapping boundaries.
17:52:58funmanwe can probably do some maths in the linker script
17:53:10TorneYeah, you just have to align . to 0x1000 instead of 0x4 ;)
17:53:29funmanso just aligning would fix the caches problem?
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17:53:49Tornei think so anyway
17:53:52Tornehaven't looked super closely :)
17:54:08Torneanyway: try it with the DACR set to manager-all-domains still
17:54:10Torneand make sure that works
17:54:19Tornebecause that will prove that you are definitely dying from a permission fault, not some other fault
17:56:31TorneOkay, now that i look closer, this doesn't look like a great way to map it at all
17:56:38Torneyou're mapping the whole of RAM twice
17:56:52Torneand jsut relying on the linker to make sure accesses go to the "right" copy
17:58:01TorneI guess technically that works as long as you never touch the same cacheline's worth via both copies
17:58:34Tornebut it's proabbly nicer to map everything only once
17:58:53Tornei.e. make some pagetables and map it pagewise so you can map the first part of the binary RO and the later part RW
18:01:37funmanthis is just a quick hack to see if RO write access can generate a fault
18:01:45Torne..yet another thing: the code at the end of memory-init that says "map 1st mbyte of RAM at 0x0 to have exception vectors available" is a pretty bad idea :)
18:01:48Torneand yes, i know it was already there
18:01:57funmanwhy that?
18:02:06Tornebecause that prevents you catching null pointer derefs
18:02:16funmanwhat do you suggest?
18:02:17Tornemove to high vectors, map at 0xFFFF0000
18:02:24Torneleave 0 unmapped
18:02:42Torneanyway, yes, RO write accesses will generate a fault :)
18:02:46Torneyou shouldn't need to test this :p
18:02:53funmanwell atm it doesn't
18:03:01funmaneverything is read-write
18:03:17Torneyah, i mean, it's mapped that way.
18:04:28Tornethis will run on clipv2, right?
18:04:31funmanokay it boots if i comment @ bic r1, r1, #(1 << 3) @ D1 = Client (access are checked)
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18:11:57funmanrewriting it after system booted just locks the screen
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18:13:47funman g#239 updated
18:13:48fs-bluebotGerrit review #239 at,239 : WIP: read-only memory on sansa AMS using MMU by Rafaël Carré (changes/39/239/2)
18:16:21funmanAccesses are checked against the access permission bits in
18:16:21funmanthe section or page descriptor.
18:16:25funmanis the new bit
18:16:34funmanAccesses are not checked against the access permission
18:16:34funmanbits so a permission fault cannot be generated.
18:17:49funmanall sections have AP = 01 (priviledged mode = R/W, user mode = no access)
18:17:53funmanwe never use user mode.
18:18:25funmanthe RO section has AP=00
18:20:11funmanR=1 (ROM protection), S=0 -> priviledged/user permissions = read-only
18:20:32Torneso what happens with that?
18:21:29funmanplayer just locks, screen doesn't change
18:22:59funmansame with S=1, R=0
18:23:30bug2000funman, I still have hard time deciding. Clip+ or ClipZip. Right now I'm waiting mostly for price drop [Current sane price is 4gb and my Clip is 4gb and works pretty well]
18:27:03funmanbtw this is arm926ej-s
18:27:03funmanTorne: AP=01 for the RO section => works fine
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18:34:16Torneso, i'd suggest: make another readonly mapping of nothing in particular somewhere and try and write to it, to check that you do get a proper fault displayed
18:34:29Tornealso that you *don't* when reading it
18:34:49bug2000funman, Did you figure what cause the crash back then? It vanished but the bug was never closed.
18:35:30Tornealso: try each of .vectors, .text and .rodata individually
18:35:37Tornei.e. just make one of those use the read only section
18:35:39Tornenot all three
18:36:14funmanbug2000: i dont remember the context
18:36:32bug2000funman, Crash with the dfkt theme on the clip. For you it crashed with Pony.
18:36:59funmanbug2000: fs#12639 ?
18:36:59fs-bluebot lebellium Samsung-like theme for Clip Zip: WPS doesn't load properly and USB not working (bugs, unconfirmed)
18:37:33bug2000funman, fs#12475
18:37:33fs-bluebot Crash while playing audio (bugs, unconfirmed)
18:38:30funmanld: region `DRAM' overflowed by 0 bytes
18:38:50Torneyeah you need to get the linker script right
18:38:52Tornelinker scripts are hideous.
18:40:10Tornesince this is on as3525 which i actually have one of, i can possibly experiment with it at some point
18:40:14Tornebut not any time soon
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23:56:58[Saint]What is the 'Right Way(tm)" to add lang strings? Append to the end of the file? Sort?
23:58:35evilnickShould be on the wiki, I think

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