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#rockbox log for 2012-06-21

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00:18:32bug2000Formatting the Clip with SD Formatter changes the speed drastically for me on Linux. From 1MB/S to 10MB/S going down to 2MB/S. Still twice as fast.
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05:19:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:30:52[Saint]JdGordon: What happens with font loading wrt buffers? I tried looking, but I'm just not getting it.
05:31:04JdGordonwhat do you mean?
05:31:10[Saint]Surely a theme using ~140MB of fonts has consequences?
05:31:26JdGordonfontache is still used
05:34:19[Saint]I was just worried that the theme was already *really* bloody big, and then I went and added a font that's just taking the piss in terms of size.
05:36:49JdGordonyou've only got 8-32M of RAM to play with anyway remember
05:39:12[Saint]Well, that's what worried me. I just rediscovered the glyphs param for %Fl, so I'll have a look at seem how low I can get away with setting it.
05:39:58[Saint]Assuming its not going on HDD based targets, screw the extra disk access.
05:42:03[Saint]JdGordon: possibly weird question to see if I can save having any backdrop bitmap at all: "Do I need to actually have a backdrop bitmap in order to draw to the backdrop buffer?"
05:42:47JdGordonof course not :)
05:42:57JdGordonusing the %VB tag creates the buffer magically
05:44:03[Saint]Since its just a CCCCCC->000000 gradient anyway, I thought why not draw it with the gradient tag? But I didn't want to try yet because I pretty much just thought of it yesterday and thought I'd ask you and see if I would be wasting my time or not :)
05:44:43[Saint]It almost certainly won't look as pretty, but it saves 300Kb~1.2MB
05:44:57JdGordonwhy wont it look as pretty?
05:45:03JdGordonit should look better
05:45:16JdGordonand yes, thats exactly what the gradient tag is for
05:46:03[Saint]better than a nice blended gradient bitmap image? I look at, say, the line selecter and don't see it happening, but I'm prepared to be amazed.
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05:48:09[Saint]Hmmm...confusing wiki
05:48:25JdGordonit should be exactly the same actually
05:48:35[Saint]DO I actually need to do "%V(0,0,-,-,-) %VB" at the start of the theme, or just "%V(0,0,-,-,-)"?
05:48:50[Saint]the %VB after the viewport declaration looks very out of place.
05:48:51JdGordonyou should do both
05:49:34[Saint]Oh, I know I need the secondary %V(0,0,-,-,-), but I wondered if the %VB really needed to follow the primary one.
05:49:56JdGordonyes, %VB says to put that viewport on the backdrop
05:50:08JdGordonyes, its not pretty
05:56:23[Saint]its not so not pretty that "at the start of the theme" really means "absolute start of the theme" does it? I assume it just means "before any other viewport declarations or anything trying to draw in the fullscreen viewport"?
05:57:55[Saint]I'm slightly confused as to whether or not the declaration to set up the fullscreen viewport is really the very first thing the theme has to do or not.
05:58:28[Saint]and, its not, so I answered my own question.
05:58:51JdGordonif you want to use the backdrop buffer then you need to add a "%V(0,0,-,-,-)" line or parts of the main viewport *may* not be drawn out correctly
06:00:11[Saint]I know I need to add one, it just says "at the start of the skin", and I took it too literally.
06:00:27JdGordonah ok
06:00:43[Saint]Its still possible to do mundane font loading, the usual huge batch of %xl's, turning off the statusbar, etc.
06:00:58[Saint]it just needs to come before you try draw anything.
06:03:05[Saint]240x320 is now down to ~400K
06:03:13[Saint]or, 39MB with fonts :P
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06:25:47[Saint]apparently I screwed something up.
06:26:21[Saint]that's my first guess. I can't seem to get drawing a gradient as the backdrop.
06:28:09[Saint]Ah, yes. I'm a big derpy derp derp.
06:29:15[Saint] "works"...but, bah.
06:29:56[Saint]the no-aa case for the track info gets left on the backdrop.
06:30:31[Saint]rather similar to AlexP's "aa never gets updated if drawn in the backdrop" methinks.
06:32:15[Saint]and GNU Unifont is so damn ugly I feel compelled to offer two versions, one with fonts for those who'll only ever use English and want fonts that won't make their eyes bleed...and one for our non-English friends.
06:34:28[Saint]And, if "Mr Someone" wants to automagically reverse the touch area scroll direction for bar tags when the viewport is %ax' localisation work would be complete
06:35:12[Saint]I have looked, and I officially have NFI whats going on with the touchscreen stuff.
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07:03:34*JdGordon has no idea what [Saint] is talking about! :)
07:04:55[Saint]think bar tags that manipulate stuff, ie. seek and volume.
07:05:28[Saint]actually, they shouldn't be reversed when %ax'd, they should be reversed if the draw direction is inverse.
07:06:07[Saint]basically: "so you don't swipe in one direction, and change the value in the opposite"
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07:09:56[Saint_]JdGordon: do you get what I mean or am I being unclear?
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07:10:44[Saint_]If a bars draw direction is inverted, the touch area control should be also.
07:10:56[Saint_]I don't know how to do this myself.
07:12:59JdGordonoh yeah, that part i got
07:15:46[Saint_]Prepending %ax to the touch declaration seems the more fitting and consistent wat to handle it.
07:16:10JdGordonna, nuking %ax is the real fix
07:17:04[Saint_]I still maintain there's situations where you might not want viewports flipped in the rtl case.
07:17:24[Saint_]Or to draw a reversed bar in an ltr case
07:17:51[Saint_]Nuking %ax would kill that.
07:18:01JdGordonno, that sounds wrong... the reason to align the bar on one side or another comes from the language direction conventions
07:18:16JdGordonso it should make sense that it would always expect to be flipped
07:18:46[Saint_]You're not taking into account crazy themes that people like to make.
07:18:59[Saint_]Lang direction shouldn't necessarily dictate the bars
07:19:23JdGordonif you're doing reveresed bar on LTR then you probably would expect reveresed on RTL also
07:19:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:19:37JdGordonthe issue with automagic flipping is images
07:20:35[Saint_]We definitely don't want to automatically flip images. An option to would be great though.
07:31:03[Saint]JdGordon: Ok, in the short time on my walk home, I thought about it, and I can say I'm warming to the idea of lang direction flipping viewports and bar direction. The problem is, lang direction needs to be able to tell the two direction sensitive touch areas (volume and seek) to always match the fill direction of the bar (ie. respect the invert param).
07:31:10[Saint]This seems non-trivial.
07:31:39JdGordonno, that is trivial
07:31:54JdGordoni need to look at the code though
07:33:41JdGordonactually, yeah, that might be painful
07:34:53JdGordonno, it's a 1 line change
07:35:00[Saint]I thought it would be perfectly sane to just flip the direction of the volume and seek touch areas, but, those bars may carry the invert param still and the same problem would happen as happens now with the touch direction not necessarily matching the fill direction. So it needs to flip the touch area direction unless the invert param exists (in other words, always follow the bar draw direction)
07:35:41[Saint]I looked about 30 minutes ago, and, if this is a one line change I'm just not seeing it :)
07:37:08JdGordonoh errr... yuck
07:37:36JdGordonif you've got more than one vol/prog bar in the wps it wont be able ot handle it
07:37:41JdGordonbut that is pretty stupid
07:38:31[Saint]that situation coming up might safely be assumed an adge case.
07:38:48[Saint]Unless someone tried to make some weird ambidextrous UI
07:38:56JdGordonok, so it's not a one line change, but it is trivial
07:40:50JdGordonin skintouch_to_wps() in the VOLUME and SCROLLBAR cases we need to find the bar which overlaps the pixel coordinate (may not be trivial :p )
07:41:13JdGordonor we link the bar with the region at parse time (or even in the skin lang)
07:41:48[Saint]the touchscreen stuff just got me bogged down.
07:41:48*JdGordon didnt bring his laptop to work today :/
07:41:56JdGordonI don't tinhk this is hard to do
07:41:59[Saint]some of that stuff is pretty intense (for me at least)
07:42:02JdGordonjust need time to sit and do it
07:42:46[Saint]"touch area/bar direction weirdness" is the only obvious flaw in the localisation aware stuff I've done.
07:43:00[Saint]If you use a target with hardware bttons it just works, though :)
07:47:54JdGordon[Saint]: can you do me a super simple test case for 320*240?
07:48:23[Saint]to show?
07:48:36JdGordonfor the slider touching workingness
07:49:25[Saint]Oh, right. Yes. I can't do it right now, but that won't be difficult no.
07:49:55JdGordonI'll be more inclined to give it a go if i dont have to fiddle with a test skin first
07:50:07[Saint]fair enough.
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07:59:13kugel[Saint]: perhaps save language support for later, current cabbiev2 doesnt do it properly either
07:59:40[Saint]which I consider broken as hell.
07:59:44kugelthe obstacles seems to be tough and things needn't to be fixed all at once
08:00:10kugelyes but nobody really complained about the lack so far :)
08:00:28[Saint]What tough obstacles? The only thing I don't have working is the the bar touch area direction.
08:00:46[Saint]apart from that, the UI elements are entirely language aware.
08:01:03kugele.g. the huge font
08:02:04kugelthere's FS #12629 too
08:02:05fs-bluebot RTL support in android devices (bugs, unconfirmed)
08:02:32JdGordonyeah that bug makes no sense at all
08:02:56[Saint]I think its the skin being stupid.
08:03:01JdGordonif that was happening everywhere I'd be ok... but its only android
08:03:04kugelprobably some __PCTOOL__ vs HOSTED vs APPLICATION somewhere
08:03:04JdGordonno, its not
08:03:08[Saint]alignment tags fucking up with %ax'd viewports
08:03:13 Quit [Saint_] (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
08:03:38JdGordonthe first pic is from the main menu
08:03:41[Saint]there used to be (probably still are) some amusing quirks with alignment tags and flipped viewports.
08:03:42JdGordonso its not a skin issue
08:04:08[Saint]Oh, hmmm...
08:04:22JdGordonkugel: any chance you can look into that?
08:04:28[Saint]How on earth can this be Android-specific?!? 0_o
08:04:53bug2000Oh. It's not a bug. It's a feature >.>
08:05:00[Saint]Also, yes, I do respect that there's other thigns I could work on...but, hey. At the end of this, it will be done, and no one else wants to do it :)
08:05:06kugeli have very little spare time at the moment
08:05:27JdGordonyeah, just set to hebrew on my ipod and the menu is all correct
08:05:35JdGordonandroid lcd updating must be doing something wierd
08:05:49[Saint]As a matter of fact, the font and glyph support is the least interesting thing in this for me.
08:05:55kugelfont drawing has nothing to do with the lcd backend
08:06:24kugelwhere "nothing to do with" == "abstracted by the generic lcd_framebuffer"
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08:06:39[Saint]My main interest was getting the theme to "just work" with the ui elements placed conditional to lang direction.
08:06:41JdGordonI know... thats why this is so messed up
08:07:19bug2000May I ask why for the Fuze[v2?] the home and submenu button options are reversed when compared to the clips? [And the logic from original firmware]
08:07:28bug2000 VS
08:08:11[Saint]I'm not sure how to handle the font issue. Though.
08:08:31[Saint]If a user just wants English, the GNU Unifonts are unnecessarily huge, and ...well, ugly.
08:09:02[Saint]But I can't just have the user select GNU Unifont from the fonts, because the theme hardcodes several fonts.
08:09:24[Saint](using up to 3 fonts in addition to the set userfont)
08:10:34[Saint]I'd love to be able to say "Just download the theme pack and select the font you want and it will "just work"", but it won't "just work" for anywhere other than the main menu.
08:10:46[Saint]The .wps doesn't use userfont at all./
08:12:10[Saint]matter of fact, it uses at least 2 non-userfont fonts in the GNU Unifont case, and up to 6 in the Ubuntu font case (as Ubuntu offers nice bold/regular fonts and its nice to use bolded and regular fonts for different things in some places)
08:13:03 Quit [Saint_] (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
08:14:21[Saint]There's literally no way I can think of to tackle this except for:
08:14:43[Saint]A - Only use one font per theme, and never hardcode it, always use userfont.
08:14:59[Saint]B - Two seperate themes, English and International
08:15:07[Saint]...both suck.
08:16:14JdGordonC - font classes
08:16:30JdGordonskin should request a 16pt font, not a specific 16 point font
08:16:45JdGordonexcept for parts where it actually is required
08:16:49JdGordoni.e number alignment
08:18:32[Saint]How does one decide which 16pt font gets chosen? or instead of (or perhaps in addition to?) /rockbox/fonts/ we could have /rockbox/wps/theme_name/fonts/
08:18:50JdGordonI dont know... probably a config file of some sort
08:19:03JdGordonbut it should be up to the user
08:19:10JdGordonno idea how to do it though
08:19:23bug2000JdGordon, Is there an answer to the question I've asked above or is it just a mistake or I have no clue.
08:20:40JdGordonbecause we dont care what the OF does, we use the buttons to make rockbox make sense
08:21:18bug2000JdGordon, I like the answer. Now please tell me why it makes more sense to reverse them on the fuze?
08:22:45[Saint]I can kinda think of a way: If a theme just asks for an XXpt font, it gets taken from /rockbox/userfonts/ which can contain exactly one of each font height following some obvious naming convention ("XX - font_name.fnt")
08:23:01bug2000Great answer. Now I just need to figure why it keeps confusing me when moving from clip to fuze if it makes more sense. Must be something with my neurons.
08:23:03[Saint]and if a specific font is requested its taken from /rockbox/fonts/ as usual
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08:24:46JdGordonI tihnk thats too much setup and error prone
08:25:23JdGordonI want a simple text file "16: foo.fnt" "16-bold: bar.fnt" and a plugin to set it all up
08:26:40JdGordonthen in the skin you'd do %Fc(16, 16-gnufont.fnt) (Font custom) which says "get the user font for 16 or use that one if it isnt set
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08:27:47[Saint]bug2000: patches are also welcomed, and if you can show its a genuine issue that needs looking into and can demonstrate the advantages of said changes you should have no problems getting it accepted.
08:28:14bug2000[Saint], The real name issue might be an issue.
08:28:33[Saint]While Rockbox doesn't care a flying f**k what the OF does with its hardware buttons, the button keymaps should be as consistent as possible through different yet similar hardware.
08:28:57[Saint]bug2000: If you don't supply one, it certainly will be.
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08:29:30bug2000[Saint], So to report a bug about consistence and hope :)
08:30:04[Saint]yeah, historically, "just hoping" doesn't have a very high success rate.
08:30:22JdGordonand changing button mappings is almost impossible anyway
08:30:48[Saint]JdGordon: in this instance it sounds perfectly doable.
08:31:04JdGordonI promise you it wont happen
08:31:18JdGordonwe've had this discussion about a million times
08:31:21bug2000JdGordon, Ok, I'll just bite it. Thanks for at least notifying me that.
08:31:37[Saint]I cannot say I have the hardware on hand to check, but if what is reported is correct it definitely should happen.
08:32:14bug2000[Thanks for making Rockbox awesome]
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08:59:41wodzJdGordon: ping
09:07:10JdGordonwodz: hi
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09:12:01wodzJdGordon: Do I assume correctly that to add default cabbie fms I need to tweak apps/settings_list.c ?
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09:19:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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09:26:04kugelwodz (logs): yes
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10:33:35[Saint]that looks crap.
10:33:57[Saint]Yeah, so, it turns out a bitmap backdrop is well worth the added size.
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10:35:24gevaerts[Saint]: you have a bug report about gradients? :)
10:35:54[Saint]I'm not sure "looks crap" is really a bug. :)
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10:48:56gevaerts[Saint]: not sure. Maybe you could post side by side screenshots somewhere?
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11:19:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:39:56kugel[Saint]: IMO letting others decide whether it's a bug or not instead of just not posting if you're unsure is btter
11:40:58[Saint]I'm pretty confident its not a bug, its using the same magic the line selector is, and the gradient on that is far from smooth.
11:41:46[Saint]Instead of a nice, blended, gradient. There's obvious bands of slightly different shades.
11:42:15kugelthat doesnt suprise me, I saw that coming
11:42:50kugelhowever, when the gradient was introduced there was no target where it showed banding. as there is now it can possibly be improved
11:43:03kugelbecause existing targets where small enough
11:43:44[Saint]Yes, that's correct. It was only eevr doing a ~30px (approx) high gradient in most cases.
11:43:57[Saint]It chokes on 800px high, though :)
11:44:19Torneso i guess we need dithering :)
11:44:42kugelwe have dithering, it's enabled for backdrops :p
11:55:44[Saint]Oh, the irony.
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13:45:29wodzTorne: ping
13:45:33Tornehi :)
13:46:28wodzTorne: does arm uses mixed endianeese? I mean 1f57280: 01f5ca68 .word 0x01f5ca68
13:46:46Torneexcept for double-precision float on very old cores
13:47:07Tornealso, i don't know what you mean by that disassembly
13:47:44wodzbinary 01f5ca68 is interpreted as .word 0x01f5ca68 which is ackward
13:48:09Tornei think you are misinterpreting objdump
13:48:48Tornethe hex values it prints in the left column are not as-memory order
13:49:05Torneit's interpreted according to the correct endianness already
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13:50:10Torneif you hexdump the file you will see teh bytes on disk are 68caf501 at that offset :)
13:50:21Tornesee also: any ARM instruction
13:50:29Tornewhich will have a hex value starting with 'e'
13:50:37Torneinstead of 'e' in the 7th place as it is in memory
13:50:57Tornelunch, bbiab
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15:44:57CIA-47Commit 76f7f47 in www by Björn Stenberg: Add new foswiki css tags for color
15:50:22CIA-47Commit abb53af in www by Björn Stenberg: Correct 'view raw' link
15:50:22CIA-47Commit 3f7b42e in www by Björn Stenberg: Rename 'calc speed' to 'est speed'.
15:50:23CIA-47Commit 4b06e1e in www by Björn Stenberg: Don't run all the post-round stuff for RC builds.
15:50:23CIA-47Commit 1bc3a59 in www by Björn Stenberg: Don't autocomplete RC build form.
15:51:27CIA-47Commit 1c01df7 in www by Björn Stenberg: Remove lillebror64-zagor
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16:40:47ZagorI removed the double list thing in WikiUsersGroup now, in an attempt to squash the access problem some people were having
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20:26:32NeelarkI would like to thank bertrik and evilnick for helping me unbrick my clip+ Tuesday
20:27:58flaushyNeelark: how was it bricked?
20:28:19*flaushy might have bricked his one as well
20:29:03NeelarkI am pleased to say that after some persistence, linux managed to see the Clip as an unpartitioned drive and I used dd to copy the OF to the drive
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20:29:42flaushyah okie :) thanks. I will dig through the docu first (didn't find time yet)
20:30:29Neelarkand success! The Clip finally sprung back to life!
20:30:56bertrikNeelark, nice to hear you fixed it after all
20:32:34Neelarkflaushy: Bricked by itself - was listening to it, paused it, it went to sleep (as it would) tried to power it back up, but nothing.
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20:33:50flaushyNeelark: okie, mine just does not power up (yet?) but i flashed it couple of hours ago. Database/playlist buildup took forever as well. So i am not sure whether it is bricked yet or just needs long recharge
20:34:48Neelarkflaushy: You've tried holding power button for 30sec to a minute?
20:35:27NeelarkForce a reset - works for some...
20:36:11NeelarkWhen you say flashed it, what did you do?
20:38:43flaushyah thanks, after a good minute it came to live again
20:39:19flaushyi installed rockbox for first time, got the clip+ because my gf did not manage to get along with it (playlist searches of original firmwre took forever)
20:40:03NeelarkRockbox over OF anytime!
20:40:40flaushyhm it went dead again. I guess on a flat battery. will recharge it overnight and try tomorrow again :)
20:42:59NeelarkAnyway, wanted to say that this page: was useful, but didn't have to solder anything. Perhaps the page could just mention to try the dd command and see if that works before opening the player!
20:43:40gevaertsNeelark: people won't read that :)
20:43:44gevaertsIt also says "Talk to us in IRC BEFORE attempting this procedure"
20:44:24funmanI am also pretty sure it doesn't speak about soldering anything
20:44:30gevaertsWe get people regularly who decide it's time to talk to us when they've taken the player apart and desoldered the battery, and then don't understand the next step, when all they needed was a hard reset
20:46:13funmanperhaps we should password protect this wiki page and tell people to ask the password on irc
20:47:09bertrikthe page does start first with the description of the most invasive procedure
20:47:11funmanperhaps we should password protect this wiki page and tell people to ask the password on irc
20:47:26gevaertsfunman: if we do that, inaccurate ams unbricking guides will appear on blogs around the net
20:47:27NeelarkJust for me it didn't require any hardware modding...
20:47:41funmanbertrik: hmm so we should tell about hard reset?
20:48:36gevaertsIt *is* the unbricking page, so I'm not surprised it assumes a bricked player. Reminding people to check this first wouldn
20:48:40gevaerts't hurt of course
20:48:40bertrikyes, first mention the hard reset, then the dd trick and finally the opening-your-player step
20:49:35Neelarkyes, sound like a reordering thing is needed
20:52:16bertrikI think the problem is that the rockbox definition of "bricked" may not be the same as many people expect
20:52:52Neelarkdoes "bricked" reqire a hardware hack to correct?
20:53:21bertrikyes, that's basically our definition I think
20:54:50bertrikthere's still quite a bit we don't understand about bricked players
20:55:08bertrikIIRC, my clip+ at some point showed a 30 MB device
20:55:27bertrikIf it's bricked one level deeper, I get a 4 MB device over USB
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20:56:15bertrikYou can write to the 4 MB device and read the same data back, but it's not persistent across power cycling so I wonder if this is some kind of RAM loader
20:57:22bertrikmaybe we should write a very simple test to see if the device tries to execute anything in that state, like some position independent code that just toggles the backlight/buttonlight or something
20:58:10bertrikI have a bricked clip+ that could be used for an experiment like that
21:00:37bertrikthe battery of that clip+ has been de-soldered though
21:03:47NeelarkNow for something different! I like to use the voice menus feature but would it be possible to suppress the "shutting down" announcement somehow?
21:04:44NeelarkSometimes listen while going to sleep but the damn thing wakes me up as it shuts down!
21:07:36bertrikThere is no standard mechanism for that AFAIK
21:07:59bertrikmaybe you could create your own voice file and leave the shutdown audio clip out
21:08:17Neelarkcan that be done?
21:08:44bertrikI don't know for sure
21:11:11bertrikI'm trying now, but can't get RockBoxUtility to work right now
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21:14:27bertriknot sure what the problem is, but RockBoxUtility appears to hang, no response at all to clicks etc.
21:19:10NeelarkDont worry, I'll look into it sometime. Thanks again, I and my Clip+ are happy again!
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21:26:46bertrikwhere do voice files end up on the player anyway?
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21:27:23bertrikoh, in .rockbox/langs
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21:47:47flaushyformat of my clip+ helped. Thanks!
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