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#rockbox log for 2012-08-31

00:16:29 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~LemonBoy@unaffiliated/thelemonman)
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00:47:04amayerJdGordon: ping
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00:57:11 Join factor [0] (
00:57:39CIA-16Commit 4faaca1 in rockbox by Amaury Pouly: fuze+: use safer battery shutoff and dangerous levels
00:59:07 Quit factor (Max SendQ exceeded)
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01:00:03CIA-164faaca1 build result: All green
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01:07:19CIA-16Commit ee21359 in rockbox by Amaury Pouly: fix comment
01:07:35 Join mc2739 [0] (~mc2739@rockbox/developer/mc2739)
01:09:29CIA-16ee21359 build result: All green
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01:25:25CIA-16Commit 3a1ba75 in rockbox by Amaury Pouly: imx233: fix auto slow divisor
01:27:31CIA-163a1ba75 build result: All green
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01:37:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:52:07amayerscorche: ping
02:22:06scorche|shamayer: pong (still at work though)
02:23:30amayerscorche|sh: can you help me set up this database for the theme site?
02:23:33amayerive been trying to reverse enginer it from the code but every time i fix one thing another pops up... and im not sure what goes in some slots
02:25:04scorche|shamayer: potentially when i get home and after you still need help with the layout of the tables and such, or is this just data format and such now?
02:26:33amayerim 99% sure i have the layout right. i just need data.
02:26:35amayerall the theme site shows(locally) is a, i, j, and c in place of the actual targets
02:27:43scorche|shamayer: if you can assemble your questions into an email for me to reply to, that would likely be best
02:29:59amayerscorche|sh: will do
02:35:45JdGordonamayer: pong
02:36:47amayerJdGordon: i was going to see if you are available to help me get some data out of the databases for the theme site so i can get my local version working.
02:36:50amayerI already talked to scorche.
02:36:52amayerare you available now to help?
02:37:29JdGordoni know nothing about the site really, especially the database
02:37:46scorche|shi dont either, but i can at least look at it and tell you what i see
02:39:47amayerscorche|sh: ok ill finish this email and send it off to you
02:41:11amayerJdGordon: i really want to get your forum integration to work. i think that will be an awesome feature.
02:41:14amayerseeing as i make themes(2 more in the works) i think getting feedback from users(in whatever form) will be awesome
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03:37:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:54:25amayerscorche: you still here?
03:54:32amayerscorche|sh: you still here?
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04:40:22amayercan someone with access to the themes database give me a .dump on checkwps for ids 1668 and 1669?
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05:37:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:41:10amayercan someone help me find the repeat/shuffle selection part of the code?
05:41:13amayeri cant find it and im trying to fix a bug
05:56:26amayerwhen i go to the shuffle and repeat selection menu by holding menu while in the wps if i press right arrow to change repeat option it gets stuck on shuffle and wont advance any more
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11:27:31wodzpamaury: how did you find out f+ encryption scheme?
11:31:45pamauryI reverse engineered the encryption tool from freescale
11:32:07pamaurylater on they released the code but at the time it was closed source
11:34:25pamaurythanks for pointing me the battery low voltage
11:35:19wodzhmm I have tool which understands actions atj2137 firmware but this is crappy windows tool
11:36:00pamauryis the format encrypted ?
11:36:29wodzat least scrambled
11:36:47pamauryif you want, send me the tool and I'll try to see if the scrambling scheme is easy to find
11:36:57wodzstrings does not return anything meaningful
11:37:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:37:50wodzIt is not super important - I prefer you fix rk27xx usb :-)
11:38:43pamauryyou can still send me the tool so I can have a look if I'm bored :)à
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12:40:33draftiany possibility of Rockbox supporting Apple Ipod Classic (6th Generation) in near future?
12:55:56wodzWe do support classics. The target is not considered stable mostly due to lack of official bootloader.
12:58:15GodEaterwodz: does rbutil install to classics?
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12:59:07wodzno AFAIK
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14:02:38draftiwodz: no it doesn't
14:03:02draftii was wondering that what is the reason for that.. is the bootloader from Apple so well protected that anyone hasn't been able to break it yet?
14:03:30draftiwodz: but if you support classics well why the heck rockbox doesn't work on it then? :)
14:03:44draftiif it's a little bit unstable i'd still like to use it
14:03:44 Quit [Saint] (Remote host closed the connection)
14:04:50draftiwodz: so in general i just wanted to know is it possible that in the near future Classic (6th gen) will be supported or should i try to find some older model where Rockbox is supported?
14:05:19draftii already got iPod Nano 5th gen and this one.. is there any hope of Rockbox working on them soon'ish?
14:05:50draftior should i just give up waiting and try to find older model?
14:06:00 Join [Saint] [0] (~quassel@rockbox/user/saint)
14:07:03wodzYou mix classics with nano. Classic IS supported. You need emcore as bootloader though and dualboot is not supported.
14:07:22wodznano is different matter - anything above 2g is not supported
14:10:02draftilemme see
14:10:09draftidon't really care about dual boot
14:10:12draftirockbox is so awesome
14:10:19draftiif i just can install that one
14:10:22draftiit'll be fine
14:10:41draftii have both Nano 5th gen and Classic 6th gen... that's what i meant.
14:16:33GodEaterwell 6th gen classic definitely runs rockbox
14:16:45 Quit CIA-16 (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
14:18:53GodEateralthough the wiki page that states this needs some work, because I've no idea what this means : "The media that's already on the iPod will work after it is copied with a program that copies media then it can be put back on the iPod."
14:21:04wodzGodEater: IIRC previously installing emcore means wiping out disk completly. Now it is changed.
14:21:26GodEaterright - but that sentence is still appalling at explaining what you should do
14:21:47GodEateris it saying you still have to copy the files that were on the iPod off it and then back on to it again?
14:21:50GodEateror what?
14:22:10GodEaterand if so - how is that better then the install wiping what was on there to begin with?
14:22:58[7]no, this is not changed at all
14:23:08[7]the installer may still wipe the hard drive
14:23:25[7]it seems to not always do it for some (still unknown) reason, but in most cases it does
14:23:47wodzMaybe it is better to reword wiki then
14:23:52 Join CIA-9 [0] (
14:24:10[7]GodEater: I suppose that sentence might want to express that it's possible to recover the audio files from apple's obfuscated crap on the ipod using some tools
14:24:29GodEaterthat's possibly one interpretation too ;)
14:24:34wodzthats exactly how I understand the sentence
14:24:39[7]mr. someone should really build an official rb bootloader + way of installation
14:24:43GodEaterI'm just saying someone who knows what it means needs to make that clearer
14:24:59GodEaterthat Mr Someone is an elusive bugger
14:25:42[7]problem with this is that unlike on everything pre-classic (up to and including nano2g) you can't just modify the firmware on the hard drive
14:25:48 Join amayer_ [0] (
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14:25:58[7]you *have* to flash the nor, unless the ipod has a really old bootloader version
14:26:12 Join amayer_ [0] (
14:26:23[7]only the first generation classic models that have never been updated can be attacked at the firmware partition level
14:27:02wodzwhts wrong with flashing nor?
14:27:16[7]well it's something that rockbox hasn't done before
14:27:28wodztime to change
14:27:29[7]it requires rewriting a lot more code :P
14:27:29GodEater*on ipods
14:27:49GodEaterwe've flashed on other DAPs (e.g. iriver H1xx)
14:28:19GodEaterwhich requires a bit more bravery on the part of the end user
14:28:43[7]to flash the nor on a classic:
14:28:53[7]1. the user has to go into DFU mode using a button combination
14:29:42[7]2. you need to upload a signed executable through DFU (on windows you'll need a driver to talk to the device)
14:30:02[7]at this stage itunes will interfere badly if it's installed
14:31:06[7]3. that executable contains a buffer overflow exploit that breaks out of the signature verification code before the RSA signature is verified
14:31:32GodEateryay for stack smashing
14:31:35[7](you still have to sign the header correctly, which can only be done on-device, just like the nano2g bootloader)
14:32:11[7]4. that executable is uploaded to IRAM, and may be up to 128KB in size
14:32:40[7]from there you can either power up the DRAM and get USB or whatever going to upload more
14:32:47[7]or you can attempt to directly flash the NOR from there
14:33:39wodzI guess bad flash is not fatal as you can still repeate whole procedure, right?
14:33:53wodznot that bad
14:33:54[7]that's the one upside of the classic
14:34:01[7]up to the nano2g it was (mostly) fatal
14:34:18[7](it was unbrickable, but only after disassembling the device and soldering some stuff)
14:34:33[7]I had to do that once :P
14:35:00wodzHow apple firmware is updated on device? I mean how iTunes do that?
14:35:06[7](not during initial development of the nor stuff, but several months later after accidentally running a badly-compiled installer)
14:35:19[7]wodz: itunes has binaries with valid signatures, so it's easy
14:35:55wodzbut do you need to put ipod in DFU also?
14:36:18[7]only during recovery of bad NOR
14:36:27[7](or during emcore uninstallation)
14:36:43wodzso the question stands, how itunes updates binary?
14:36:50[7]regular updates just update the firmware partition, and use the well-known AUPD stuff to let the bootloader update the nor thereafter
14:37:06[7]but that stage doesn't have known attack vectors
14:37:51[7](it had the same as the ROM based DFU, but they fixed it rather early, and just the unpatchable ROM remains)
14:38:04[7]freemyipod is currently uploading a stub through DFU which will connect to USB and emulate a DRAM-based mass storage device, and upon eject or unplugging mount that ramdisk and look for an executable on it which will then be relocated and run
14:38:43[7]that allows for a tiny generic bootstrapper tool that takes care of the DFU stuff, and everything from there on can be done by simply drag&dropping files
14:39:13 Quit factor (Quit: Leaving)
14:39:18 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
14:40:02[7]the file uploaded via this usb ramdisk (called umsboot) then takes care of flashing emcore to the nor, formatting the hard drive, and (if wanted) unpacking a rockbox build to the hard drive
14:40:13[7]the size limit is 64MB at that point :)
14:41:03[7]most users fail long before that place though
14:41:32[7]entering DFU mode (which is simply connecting usb and pressing and holding menu+select for between 10 and 15 seconds) is too complicated for quite a bunch of users
14:42:10[7]the instructions state "exactly 12 seconds" and most users press it for like 20 seconds or let go of the buttons when it first reboots after 5 seconds and say "oh, it rebooted, doesn't work!"
14:42:46[7]we even have instruction videos on youtube that show exactly how it works, yet about 80% of the questions in our IRC support channel are caused by people failing to do it right
14:43:37[7]the second most common problem is the driver stuff on windows
14:44:17 Quit amayer_ (Remote host closed the connection)
14:44:47[7]due to libusb not being accepted by microsofts KMCS policy and therefore not working on 64bit systems we chose to use winusb, but apparently that doesn't work much more reliable than libusb
14:44:57[7]maybe our inf files have bugs, not sure
14:45:04[7]they work for developers but not some users apparently
14:45:50[7]if itunes is installed you can piggyback on its driver, which is a lot easier (we also have a tool for that), but then you have some apple services interfering which try to upload their own DFU binary as fast as they can without asking the user
14:47:01[7]and most users seem to fail at killing all interfering processes/services at once before entering DFU mode (sometimes the driver installation that happens at this point if it's the first DFU device that windows gets to see seems to cause some of those processes to be started back up, so it might only work on the second attempt)
14:47:36[7]on linux the dfu part is easy, but then you run into this nasty EHCI usb mass storage bug when trying to access the ramdisk
14:48:02[7]that's been a bit better since linux 3.0, but still seems to fail from time to time
14:48:22[7]given the latest USB breakage in rockbox I'm not quite sure which code is to blame for that mess
14:49:03[7]so now you have a nice summary of what's going on during ipod classic installation and what will probably need to be done to do it properly :)
14:49:18[7]btw, dualboot is theoretically possible, just blocked by a bug at the moment
14:49:39[7]apparently we initialize some hardware into a state that isn't compatible with the OF
14:50:20[7]debugging it is really hard (requires patching up the OF binary), but it seems like the I2C driver gets stuck during the first attempt to access the PMU during the OF init
14:50:28[7]same issue for disk mode btw
14:50:35[7](which is based on the same kernel)
14:51:00[7]looking at register states didn't quite reveal what exactly is the problem though
14:51:14[7]just saying that with some more work dualboot might actually be possible
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14:51:42*[7] crawls back into his cave
14:52:48megal0maniac[7]: You're not talking to the walls :)
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15:03:23GodEater[7]: that was a great summary
15:03:39GodEater(sorry - got distracted with paid work, so only just caught up on it)
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15:36:29draftiwodz: i'll boot to windoze now. let's see if i can get this workin
15:36:34 Quit drafti (Quit: Lost terminal)
15:37:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:51:27 Join vedos [0] (
15:51:39vedoswhat was the name of the bootloader that supported Classic models?
15:52:07vedosah.. emCORE
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16:01:56 Join y4n [0] (~y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx)
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16:07:55vedosi'm now at the
16:08:01vedosdownloaded the zip
16:08:09vedosdo i need to install emCORE first?
16:10:27[7]yes, you'll need to install emcore, then extract the rockbox zip file to the hard drive
16:10:39[7]instructions are here:
16:11:15 Quit Zagor (Quit: Clint excited)
16:11:33vedosthe emcore site seems to be down for me :(
16:12:02[7]worked fine seconds ago, but seems to have a hiccup right now
16:12:15[7]well, it's hosted on netcup, so hiccups are to be expected it seems :P
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16:15:29vedosit seems i can access it with links from my shell in another computer
16:15:33vedosbut not on this one
16:15:59[7]well it worked for me when I sent you that link
16:16:06[7]but was down like 10 seconds after that
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16:39:14vedosi got it working! :)
16:39:32vedosdid the emCORE have the latest Rockbox on their page?
16:40:09vedosnot it seems...
16:40:29vedosi used they give on their page
16:40:53vedosbut on yours page the file's date stamps are newer
16:41:13vedosso ho do i update it to the latest? just unzip the archive to the root of ipod?
16:42:19vedosor should i delete whole .rockbox directory and unzip the newest one there
16:43:02amayer_just copy and replace
16:43:16vedosnow some SID tewnz!
16:43:19vedosand MODz :)
16:43:22vedosuu mama
16:44:03vedosi think it's all good now
16:44:06vedoscopying some music
16:44:12vedosi'll reboot and try playing it from my speakers
16:44:18vedosthanks guys!!!
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17:14:47amayer_is there someone available i can discuss a bug with?
17:14:50amayer_(i was told to ask before posting a bug report)
17:15:52amayer_the bug has to do with the repeat modes
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17:28:25AlexPamayer_: Either mention here and wait for response, or mailing list, or forums
17:28:37AlexPIf you just want to know if something is a bug or not, here is probably best
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18:04:03amayer_when im in the WPS and hold menu(ipod classic) it brings up the shuffle & repeat menu.
18:04:05amayer_when i press right arrow it changes the repeat setting. but it gets stuck on repeat: shuffle.
18:04:07amayer_no matter how many times you press right arrow it stays on repeat: shuffle;
18:04:46amayer_im using daily build from 8-30
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18:30:23amayer_also when you scale the view port it makes them scroll back and forth and doesnt look that good
18:32:14amayer_i was looking in the code but i couldnt find where it did this
18:32:35gevaerts"it makes them scroll back and forth"?
18:32:40gevaertsWhat makes what scroll?
18:36:08amayer_like on the wps when you add %s and the text is bigger then the viewport
18:36:49amayer_text scrolls left then text scrolls right but you can only see a couple(30 or 40) pixles at a time
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19:00:10amayer_i have a question about the cpu scalling you guys were working on. was that for every target or just a specific cpu type?
19:00:46n1scpu freq scaling is implemented per cpu, we do it on several but not all supported devices
19:03:49amayer_thank you
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21:05:00vedosyou guys rock!
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21:09:47amayer_*feels all tingly inside*
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21:11:38bertrikvedos: thanks!
21:14:48vedoswho did the SID emulation?
21:14:56vedosit sounds quite good for a emulation
21:19:43bertrikit was added in 2006, done by Rainer Sinsch
21:19:53bertrikFS #5157
21:19:54fs-bluebot SID codec based on tinysid (patches, closed)
21:21:47vedoshow fast are the processors in eg. iPods
21:22:42vedosi was just wondering because emulating SID very exact and simulate distortion needs many > 1GHz processor
21:23:10gevaertsThe "old" (e.g. pre-classic) ipods are 80MHz ARM
21:23:18bertrikvedos: there are various kinds of processors used in ipods
21:23:29vedosthis is iPod Classic 6g
21:23:48bertrikI think that's a 200 MHz ARM, IIRC
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21:25:44vedoshas anyone coded any über cool demos/visualization plugins or something i could use?
21:25:49vedosthe CPU is quite fast
21:26:05vedosi was thinking it'd be nice checking some fractals etc while tripping outside :D
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21:28:42bertrikpictureflow is nice, also you can try doom
21:29:02pixelmaand fractals
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21:55:09*thomasjfox tried a personality test at an online dating site for the first time. Never had such a good laugh about the results
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22:20:17AlexPgevaerts: Before you go on holidy, what do you think about USB?
22:20:29AlexPw.r.t it being semi broken on a wide range of targets
22:20:40AlexPI'm thinking about the release
22:20:50gevaertsTo be honest, I don't know what to think of it
22:21:13AlexPI don't really want to release with USB that data aborts depending on what settings you have enabled
22:21:21gevaertsI agree
22:23:00gevaertsThere are three problems as far as I can see: the nano2g one, the AMSv2 one where USB *really* should just be disabled again for the stable release (which of course would give some bootloader headaches), and some apparent random memory corruption issue
22:24:00gevaertsFor nano2g we should investigate if reboot to disk mode can be done. Last time it couldn't IIRC, but maybe things changed
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22:26:42gevaertsI haven't really investigated any of those myself, so I can't really say much more
22:32:10yumI would be very greateful if I could get a hint on where (in the source code) I should look to work with the menu structure/hierarchy
22:33:04gevaertsyum: root_menu.c is probably a good start
22:33:19thomasjfoxyum: Did you try to search for one of the items/words that appear in the menu?
22:33:21gevaertsAlthough it's not an area of the code I'm really familiar with
22:34:22yumthomasjfox: i did start looking about a few months ago and then all the summertime activities hit me
22:34:36yumthomasjfox: yes, i think soo, but i do not exactly remember
22:34:55yumgevaerts: thank you i will fire up my emacs ,-)
22:38:54yumthank you for your help, i may get back with questions when i have gotten myself a grip of the code
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22:44:10bluebrotheranyone interested in updating a Rockbox Utility translation?
22:44:30bluebrotherapart from nl and de all languages are missing quite a lot of strings
22:44:44bluebrotherand I really need to get a new release done this weekend ...
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23:11:43pamaurybluebrother: I can have a look at the french one
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23:33:06CIA-9Commit c8e7964 in rockbox by Amaury Pouly: imx233: more consistent debug screen
23:33:07CIA-9Commit 91c5023 in rockbox by Amaury Pouly: rbutilqt: french translation
23:35:51CIA-991c5023 build result: All green
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