#rockbox 2012-11-26

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#rockbox log for 2012-11-26

00:02:29		Quit Wilko ()
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00:31:48	copper	somebody should add ".lossy.*" as a valid file extension
00:32:07	copper	i.e. hide ".lossy" when setting "hide file extensions" to on
00:32:22	copper	(for lossyFLAC/lossyWV files)
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00:42:55	linuxstb	copper: That's not trivial, as Rockbox assumes extensions don't contain a dot. i.e. it searches from the end of the string, finds the first dot, and everything after that is the extension.
00:43:20	saratoga	i tried hacking together clip+ radio lock screen
00:43:22	copper	surely you can make an exception
00:43:29	saratoga	anyone want to try (don't have a clip+ handy)
00:43:41	saratoga	well you could write code to do it
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00:44:49	saratoga	radio lock code (untested): http://pastebin.com/dacnFaPk
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00:57:49	saratoga	is there some way to get our rockbox-info.txt to include the master hash
00:58:03	saratoga	right now its really hard to figure out where modified builds came from
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01:00
01:02:22	JdGordon	saratoga: should be trivial :p
01:02:53	saratoga	how do i refer to the rockbox git repo's hash?
01:03:51	saratoga	origin/master?
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01:08:21	JdGordon	ask Torne
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01:16:26	saratoga	got it
01:16:43	saratoga	this patch changes rockbox-info to print the hash of the origin/master
01:17:21	saratoga	http://pastebin.com/qwTJxhCH
01:17:46	saratoga	perhaps I don't understand, but this is more useful then knowing the hash of the builder's local git repo right?
01:18:24	JdGordon	I'd print both
01:18:48	saratoga	since if they have local commits the hash is basically meaningless to others
01:22:57	saratoga	need to ask Torne since i'm clueless
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01:49:39	saratoga	JdGordon: how does Version:(master) local[M]-date sound?
01:50:14	JdGordon	You'd probably need to make sure rbutil doesnt parse it before touching it
01:50:35	webguest75	Would it be possible to create an Everyday Looper-type app for Rockbox?
01:50:58	JdGordon	also, I've make Version: in that text file match what is in the rockbox info screen... maybe just add a new line for upstream hash
01:51:07	JdGordon	webguest75: ?
01:51:29	[Saint]	time machine...duh.
01:51:33	[Saint]	:)
01:52:10	[Saint]	Every day loops, like groundhog day.
01:52:35	saratoga	JdGordon: well I tried for a while but couldn't figure out how to make bash do that
01:52:46		Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0/20121113065533])
01:53:31	webguest75	Sorry, shoulda clarified it. I meant a plugin that could take input from the microphone and loop/overdub on loops, like the iPhone/iPod application "Everyday Looper"
01:54:00	saratoga	i think i'd actually have to make a whole new bash script to do that, since the "Version:" is printed in perl, while the number is formatted in bash
01:54:44	JdGordon	lame
01:56:30	[Saint]	webguest75: it'd likely only be the hosted targets that could handle such a plugin, and the host OS probably has a better alternative.
01:58:02	webguest75	So there wouldn't be any way to just temporarily cache mp3 audio on-the-fly and create overdubs?
01:58:15	saratoga	PCM audio maybe
01:58:20	saratoga	depending what an overdub is
01:58:37	webguest75	Thanks, it basically means you hear a new pass-over the last audio track
01:58:52	saratoga	what does that mean?
01:58:54	webguest75	Two tracks at the same time, etc.
01:59:08	saratoga	so you want to load two tracks and play them at once?
01:59:26	webguest75	Right, though they're created live
01:59:42	webguest75	As soon as you finish recording the first track, you hit stop and it repeats
02:00
02:01:00	webguest75	Ideally you could create a temp directory to save files, but have them delete after you exit
02:02:24	saratoga	storage speed might be a problem, but you probably could do that
02:02:47	saratoga	although i don't think you'd be able to play it back in real time
02:03:17	[Saint]	kinda defeats the purpose :)
02:03:55	webguest75	Yeah, you'd kinda need that feature for it to work - Everyday Looper is the closest example of what I mean, though it wouldn't need to be that complicated
02:04:22	saratoga	whats the difference between ` and " strings in bash?
02:06:06	[Saint]	As I said earlier when I put my speculation hat on, the targets that have the guts to do this on run Rockbox as a hosted application instead of an OS replacement and /probably/ already have a solution.
02:07:22	[Saint]	That type of application is asking a fair bit from a DAP with such limited resources.
02:08:30	[Saint]	...perhaps the Nano2G or the Beast or Classic could do it. Dunno.
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02:09:09	webguest75	Alright, I'll try that then, thanks :)
02:09:56	webguest75	I was thinking about something as primitive as a Sansa Clip, but that would probably be impossible
02:12:05	[Saint]	The Clip is actually kinda snappy (and isn't hampered by a large spinning disk), but I'm not overly confident it'd be able to do this in realtime.
02:12:54	webguest75	Would the designated format really make a difference in terms of write speed or not?
02:16:12	saratoga	is the clip even capable of playing back and recording at the same time?
02:16:38	saratoga	seems like something an mp3 player wouldn't ever need to do
02:17:38	webguest75	You're right, it wouldn't, but there wouldn't be a way to rewrite that?
02:18:15	[Saint]	Not trivially.
02:18:31	saratoga	can't rewrite hardware
02:18:39	saratoga	unless you're going to pay a lot to get the new design fabbed
02:19:04	webguest75	Yikes, doesn't sound like something I could work around
02:19:33	saratoga	so when i call this sh script it gives me the git hash
02:19:42	webguest75	Thanks for the help.
02:19:57	saratoga	but when i do print `../tools/masterversion.sh` in a perl script it just gives me the first character of the hash
02:19:58	saratoga	why?
02:20:32	[Saint]	'cos, perl.
02:23:27		Quit webguest75 (Quit: CGI:IRC)
02:31:27	saratoga	Torne: would you take a look at g#356?
02:31:30	fs-bluebot	Gerrit review #356 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/356 : Add the current hash of the rockbox master git repo to rockbox-info.txt. by Michael Giacomelli (changes/56/356/1)
02:31:43	saratoga	i have no idea if its ok or even makes sense, but it seems like it'd be useful
02:38:17	saratoga	actually, is origin/master the current state of the rockbox repo?
02:38:22	saratoga	if so I guess that doesn't work either
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03:19:47	[Saint]	glargh!
03:20:01	[Saint]	building the yp-r0 toolchain is a royal PITA
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04:42:41	WilliamC	Some how my music player got corrupted, how do I recover it or at least do a format?
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04:52:49	[Saint]	WilliamC: that's very OS dependent.
04:53:05	[Saint]	fsck.vfat for linux, or chkdsk for Windows.
04:53:18	WilliamC	It's taking forever to do anything
04:53:40	WilliamC	The original OS says that the table is hosed
04:53:50	WilliamC	Well, the original player firmware
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05:56:34	*	[Saint] cannot get arm-ypr0-linux-gnueabi compiled on Ubuntu 12.10 64 bit
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06:01:40	scorche	so, repeating from #r-c, the forums appear to be upgraded and functioning well enough now - it just needs some theme tweaking to get the rockbox.org sidebar in place on the side - there are still some mods and settings I need to look at, but those are not blockers
06:02:54	scorche	if someone is familiar with website layout/CSS stuff and has some spare time to just add the sidebar on the theme and set the background color and such, after a bit of testing, I can clone that setup over and get the forums back up again...
06:04:44	[Saint]	uuuuuughhhh, and now I have no idea what's left over that was shat onto my disk by the (multiple) failed attempts to compile this toolchain.
06:05:34	[Saint]	it /really/ doesn't fail in a nice way at all.
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06:19:51	WilliamC	I'm thinking that the latest firmware for the Clip Zip is bad
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09:11:33	wodz	pamaury: Your lcd_yuv_blit() looks pretty general. Maybe we should make it weak function overwritten if someone comes with optimized implementation?
09:14:45	kugel_	there is already a generic one
09:16:06	wodz	where?
09:16:29	kugel_	lcd-16bit-common.c or something
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09:27:56	wodz	heh I guess pamaury copied the function from lcd-16bit-common.c
09:37:42	pamaury	wodz: there is a generic one but I planned to replace it with the hardware code and never did it :(
09:38:38	wodz	pamaury: sure but isn't it better to use generic one and copy it over unless you actually come to implementing optimized version?
09:39:21	pamaury	yes, but I did that a long ago :) Ok, you win, I'll replace it with the generic one a few moments
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09:41:06	wodz	eee, I mean do not copy it over. Its defined as WEAK alias so you simply have to remove one from target specific file to get generic fallback
09:43:57	wodz	hell, I have hard time reading disasm of atj adfu binary. Compiler seems to assume that s7 register holds some global base address and uses relative addressing quite a lot. The problem is I can't spot what this base is :-/
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09:53:01	wodz	Anyone have a clue what is located at first 0x200 bytes on mips memory? It seems reserved for something but can't find in documents what it is
09:55:38	kugel_	pamaury: why dont you just delete it?
09:55:46	kugel_	#if 0 is bad style imo
09:56:05	kugel_	especially without any nearby comments
09:56:39	wodz	kugel_: you mean me?
09:56:52	kugel_	i know you added a comment, but it makes me think "why is this #if 0'd code still here"
09:56:54	kugel_	wodz: yes, sorry
09:58:10	wodz	kugel_: I prefer to leave it there. Otherwise I bet I forget that there is some magic, general implementation linked from somewhere else.
09:59:15	wodz	rk27xx lcdif can do yuv->rgb conversion in hardware. I'll replace generic implementation when I figure out how to use this.
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10:01:20	pamaury	kugel_: I meant to remove it, not #if 0 it !!
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11:02:52	gevaerts	scorche`: can you send me some infornmation about this theme? I don't know much about this area either, but I should be able to have a look tonight (without promises!)
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12:57:47	Torne	saratoga: i replied to the review, but unfortunately the summary is "that way doesn't work and there's not any readily available way that does" :/
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13:31:39	melmothX	I'd like to help out with the ClipZip manual (at least the missing images). I have the simulator ready, and I grokked out the naming convention and where to put the files. May I proceed or is there a similar effort already going on?
13:32:07	gevaerts	I don't think anyone is working on it
13:34:37	melmothX	what do you prefer? a tarball with the images in the proper directory or a git fork? (but where to push the changes, assuming but not sure I can't mail a patch with binary files inside)
13:34:43	Torne	melmothX: neither
13:34:58	Torne	we have a gerrit instance that you can push changes to
13:35:26	melmothX	oh, that's uber-cool. I'm on my way
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13:39:32	gevaerts	melmothX: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UsingGit should have all the details you need
13:43:24	melmothX	i was indeed looking there for the gerrit thing. Can do, no problem
13:56:17	lebellium	Anyone already sent back a Sansa to after sales service with rockbox installed?
13:59:32	Zagor	lebellium: this might be interesting if you're in the EU: http://piana.eu/root
14:00
14:00:22	lebellium	The concerned user is in France indeed
14:00:28	copper	Zagor: the problem is that the manufacturer will likely ignore that and you'll have to argue and waste a lot of time trying to get your rights respected
14:00:52	Zagor	copper: sure. but knowing your rights is never bad.
14:00:55	copper	better restore the OF if you can
14:01:24	copper	Zagor: sure, it's nice to know
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14:02:56	lebellium	he guy has a clip zip that is no longer recognized by the computer. OF gets stuck on Sansa logo at startup
14:03:10	lebellium	the guy*
14:04:03	lebellium	I'm not sure if it is possible to remove the .rockbox folder with the File Manager while using Rockbox
14:05:31	gevaerts	It should be
14:07:41	lebellium	and what could be responsible for OF brick? Isn't there a problematic OF database file that can be deleted from Rockbox file manager?
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14:21:35	lebellium	hum I just tried on my CLip Zip: after deleting the .rockbox folder while using rockbox there is still the bootloader that displays Rockbox. So no way to hide Rockbox for the after sales service :(
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15:04:44	wodz	lebellium: it should be possible to reflash device when running rockbox (there is no code for this but it should be fairly simple) but if you removed rockbox I guess you have no other way to run custom code now...
15:06:05	lebellium	wodz: my clip zip works fine :) I tried it for another user. I already replied him some minutes ago and he read my posts. So I don't know if he already removed Rockbox yet or not
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15:59:48	copper	the "official" rockbox ipod6g dev builds seem to work better than the aroldan/head-fi builds
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16:17:25	copper	Is there a way to list "Album Artists" in the database, instead of artists?
16:17:52	copper	e.g. "Genre" lists all artists, I'd like it to list only album artists
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16:21:04	Torne	sure, change the tagnavi config to anything you like
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16:23:13	scorche	gevaerts: theoretically, you can now edit the raw text on the admin panel of the forums - practically, it doesnt work out so well unless you are extra careful not to forget a semicolon or something like that, as that will break the page
16:23:40	scorche	gevaerts: either way, I will get you want you need when i get to work and finish a few things
16:24:04	gevaerts	OK
16:29:55	copper	Torne: I put this in /.rockbox/tagnavi_custom.config: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=YR64TULb
16:29:58	copper	doesn't make a difference
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16:30:39	Torne	that's not how you override the menu
16:31:08	copper	ok?
16:32:01	Torne	i forget what order it gets included in
16:32:03	Torne	one sec
16:32:42	copper	first block is used, supposedly
16:32:53	copper	and tagnavi_custom.config is loaded before the main menu definition
16:33:03	Torne	the usual way to do it is to use a different name for th emenu
16:33:14	Torne	and set %root_menu to something else
16:33:22	Torne	not to redefine the menus that are already defined
16:33:22	copper	ok
16:33:22	Torne	call it my_main or something
16:34:18	copper	sure
16:34:58	Torne	does it actually say anywhere that the first definition of a menu is the one that takes effect?
16:35:04	Torne	it says the first root menu declaration takes effect.
16:36:14	Torne	the docs for the database stuff are all pretty wonky and hard to follow
16:38:01	copper	doesn't work
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16:39:17	Torne	by doesn't work you mean the entire menu is completely unchanged?
16:39:31	Torne	have you tried changing it to something completely different?
16:39:37	Torne	i.e. different menu options, not jsut different sorting
16:40:04	copper	I don't see my menu at all
16:40:04	Torne	also, what are you doing to get it to notice?
16:40:06	copper	I changed the name and label
16:40:15	copper	I unplugged from USB and rebooted
16:40:41	copper	I also selected "update database"
16:41:18	Torne	you don't need to update the database (the stored data is in the same format no matter what)
16:41:23	Torne	but yeah, it needs a reboot i think
16:41:23	Torne	anyway. it works for me :)
16:41:32	Torne	not your config specifically, but i do have a custom tagnavi on mine
16:41:40	Torne	i don't have it handy
16:41:43	copper	ah
16:41:45	Torne	so can't give you an example, sorry
16:41:51	copper	was gonna ask you to pastebin it :)
16:42:23	Torne	yeah i don't actually carry my ipod most of the time any more :)
16:42:23	Torne	only on long trips
16:42:23	Torne	so it's at home
16:44:04	Torne	anyway. you can also just edit the main tagnavi config as long as you are careful not to overwrite it when you upgrade rockbox
16:44:09	Torne	the wya the overrides work is fiddly and i don't remember exactly what you have to do :/
16:45:26	copper	just did that, worked :)
16:45:45	Torne	yah, so it's a problem with how you are overriding the menus
16:45:49	copper	kept a copy on my HDD for future upgrades
16:46:21	Torne	anyway. as far as the docs suggest and i remember, you should be able to define whatever you want in the custom tagnavi, with different names to the usual ones
16:46:27	copper	oddly enough, I just plugged and unplugged the iPod maybe 5 times in a row, and it didn't even freeze or crash ;)
16:46:28	Torne	and then also replace the root menu with %root_menu
16:46:55	copper	thanks for your help
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17:03:38	copper	Torne: I figured it out: I forgot to keep the '#! rockbox/tagbrowser/2.0' header on the first line
17:04:02	Torne	huh, really? it actually cares about that?
17:04:17	Torne	odd :)
17:05:57	Torne	q99999.afsdf
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18:25:00	melmothX	is it possible to magnify the simulator? the 96x96 screen is killing my eyes
18:27:20	gevaerts	Yes. There's a command line argument for that. Not sure what it is right away though...
18:27:29	pixelma	zoom
18:27:40	pixelma	but I don't remember the parameter (syntax)
18:28:22	gevaerts	−−zoom <number>
18:28:47	gevaerts	1 means unchanged
18:28:53	gevaerts	2 means twice as big
18:29:02	melmothX	damn, i should have passed the −−help before asking
18:29:21	melmothX	thanks people
18:29:31	gevaerts	You can use floating point these days and make it smaller if you like :)
18:32:54	melmothX	2x is really fine. (now that i'm near the end of the chore)
18:34:19	gevaerts	Some people prefer 0.5!
18:37:18	melmothX	lol, 48x48 and still reading the writings?
18:40:03	gevaerts	Well, not for clip-sized things
18:40:20	gevaerts	Try working on a theme for e.g. the nexus 10 on your PC though :)
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19:07:12	melmothX	so, basically I miss 4 screenshots. Invadrox, which I can't find in the menu, pacbox, rockboy and zxbox, unclear where to find the roms (i didn't search a lot, to say the truth). Any suggestions?
19:09:09	gevaerts	Invadrox won't be there. It's only compiled for LCDs with a width of 138 pixels or more
19:10:14	gevaerts	I'd say leave those out for now
19:10:31	melmothX	ok, perfect
19:15:18	Krill--	laters
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19:51:31	melmothX	The screenshots for the Sansa Clip Zip are here, please review http://gerrit.rockbox.org/357
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20:37:33	wodz	pamaury: ping
20:37:37	pamaury	pong
20:38:13	pamaury	I tried to fix rk27xx usb this week-end but no luck. I can't see what I'm missing, all the init seems right !
20:39:29	wodz	pamaury: I got actions sdk for atj213x. The files inside are mostly binaries but some of them are packed in this "3DUfw" thing. atjboottool doesn't like them unfortunately. It chokes on Version: 7d (Unknown)
20:40:08	pamaury	ok, can you send me the sdk ? I'll try to reverse engineer this version
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20:43:24	wodz	pamaury: read priv msg
20:44:13	pamaury	by the way, I'm not sure there was a version 0x7d in that firmware unpacker I disassembled but I'm not sure
20:44:32	pamaury	the code was quite messy w.r.t to version handling
20:45:03	pamaury	I still have to finish my work on elftosb but it should be a matters of a few hours, perhaps less; then I'll work on this
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21:30:26	scorche\|1h	gevaerts: when you get the time, let me know and I will just give you credentials for that system
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21:46:38	gevaerts	scorche\|1h: pong
21:48:29	scorche\|1h	gevaerts: ok - just a sec
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21:50:34	AlexP	scorche\|1h: It all went OK in the end?
21:51:01	scorche\|1h	AlexP: yes - it just needs to have the sidebar applied and such which i dont have time to do
21:51:08	AlexP	cool
21:51:17	scorche\|1h	at least it appears fine
21:51:28	AlexP	good stuff, cheers
21:51:32	AlexP	Let's hope it helps!
21:52:07	scorche\|1h	assuming gevaerts can wrangle the CSS to get the page to render properly, i will have a few folk test things to amke sure i didnt forget anything (or cant see the issues due to being an administrator)
21:52:21	gevaerts	I'll do my best!
21:52:27	AlexP	sure, give us a shout
21:52:34	AlexP	If needed :)
21:52:39	*	gevaerts really only knows the basics of CSS :)
21:52:53	gevaerts	I like pain and suffering though, so I'll have a go
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22:19:09	pamaury	lorenzo (logs): I'm nearly done writing sbtoelf
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23:20:12	xenyz	Hello #rockbox, I have a few questions :)
23:21:05	wodz	go ahead
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23:21:54	xenyz	Is it possible to list Artists with "The" in the name, on the end? I.e. Gaslight Anthem, The instead of The Gaslight Anthem
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23:23:40	xenyz	Or is that controlled by the theme or something?
23:24:05	wodz	you mean in WPS?
23:24:26	xenyz	In the database
23:25:33	wodz	it is not handled by theme AFAIK
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23:26:47	xenyz	I noticed there's import & export modifications option in the database settings, any idea what that's for?
23:27:20	wodz	I guess manual covers this
23:27:37	xenyz	Ok I'll have a look
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23:28:48	gevaerts	xenyz: see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DataBase
23:29:05	gevaerts	There's an example that specifically does the the thing
23:29:51	wodz	it is really amusing - actions adfu server IS hand written assembly
23:31:24	xenyz	gevaerts: thanks, this is exactly what i was looking for
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23:36:01	lorenzo92	pamaury: nice to know, great ;)
23:36:18	pamaury	fortunately the updater was encrypted with the default key
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23:39:51	xenyz	gevaerts: so from what i gather it was suggested here http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5923 but has been rejected :(
23:41:02	*	gevaerts is of the opinion that if an artist or band decides to have "The" as part of their name, he isn't going to overrule them :)
23:41:25	lorenzo92	pamaury: uh! updater.sb you mean? that's also a nice thing hehe
23:41:55	xenyz	I just think it's easier to find the band if they're sorted the other way, but I see what you mean
23:42:16	lorenzo92	pamaury: I will work again on Z5Update.dat as soon as possible...and player will arrive soon xD
23:42:22	xenyz	I'm trying to remember how the iPod does it, I think they keep the 'The' but sort it where it would go without the 'The'
23:42:52	gevaerts	So what do they do with other languages?
23:43:15	gevaerts	I think the consensus is that we could accept a patch that adds this, if it's properly configurable
23:43:16	xenyz	I'm only familiar with the english interface
23:43:38	gevaerts	Well, band names are not related to the UI language, to complicate things :)
23:44:16	xenyz	Exactly, I went into the database options hoping for a switch like 'Sort Artists starting with The'
23:44:27	AlexP	xenyz: Or Das, or ...
23:44:45	gevaerts	Technically if you have, say, a German artist and an English artist, you can not sort them :)
23:45:04	gevaerts	(because neither German nor English sort order is appropriate for both)
23:45:05	AlexP	I prefer The to be ignored for sorting, but hate it when it still displays The XXx instaed of XXX, The
23:45:14	AlexP	I find it impossible to find stuff like that
23:45:24	xenyz	I guess it would be like a database setting, where you choose the Collation
23:45:35	AlexP	What about the filebrowser?
23:45:58	xenyz	Well you couldn't rename the files in the filebrowser, it'd just be for the database
23:46:14	AlexP	Well, you could, but I agree with you :)
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23:46:25	xenyz	I agree the artist is "The XXX" not "XXX, The", but finding it should be under X, not T
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23:46:42	AlexP	No, i want XXX, The if the The is ignored
23:46:44	Torne	the right way to do this is using sort tags, not having a configurable set of strings
23:46:54	Torne	we would love patches to do sort tag support :)
23:46:59	AlexP	I find The XXX sorted under XX to be impossible to find
23:47:05	AlexP	Torne: Yep
23:47:08	xenyz	But the player should display the artist as "The XXX"
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23:47:16	Torne	then this choice of what to display is easy
23:47:19	AlexP	As Torne says, sort tags exist
23:47:25	AlexP	We just don't support them
23:47:25	Torne	you can separately choose to sort by or display the regular/sort tags
23:47:34	Torne	so you an sort under The or under Who, and see The Who or Who, The
23:47:37	Torne	as you choose
23:47:41	Torne	it just needs implementing :)
23:47:52	xenyz	Hmm so it depends on tags on the files?
23:47:54	Torne	Also, sort tags work correctly for, say, "The The"
23:48:02	Torne	or other bands with hilarious names
23:48:04	Torne	:)
23:48:35	AlexP	xenyz: yes, if done correctly
23:48:37	xenyz	But "The The" would show up under T anyway :)
23:48:38	Torne	xenyz: there are defined alternate tag properties for artist/album/etc that allow for the name to be present in catalog sort form as well as normal form, yes
23:48:56	Torne	all my music has these tags because picard does it for you :)
23:49:27	xenyz	Hmm I'll have to check it out, but for all the music not tagged like that it'd be useful to have the player do the sort
23:49:46	AlexP	Only for English
23:49:49	Torne	that's super coplicated and hard to do correctly
23:49:52	xenyz	Otherwise a good 20-30% of artists in the list are going to be clumped together under T
23:50:10	AlexP	We support many languages, all need to be catered for
23:50:18	xenyz	Yes it would have to be an option you choose to use, not the default behaviour
23:50:29	Torne	e.g. please sort "Die Krupps" and "Die Screaming" successfully :)
23:50:30	AlexP	and work for all languages
23:50:33	Torne	No, you can't do it with a single option
23:50:45	Torne	because music is named in more than one language regardless of the language of the speaker :)
23:50:50	AlexP	Torne: I think he is still ignoring everything except The in English
23:50:57	Torne	"Die Krupps" sorts as "Krupps, Die"
23:50:59	Torne	because yaknow
23:51:02	Torne	that's what it means in german :)
23:51:05	xenyz	"Sort Artists with The" Yes/No
23:51:19	AlexP	As has been said many times...
23:51:22	AlexP	Other languages
23:51:37	xenyz	Yes you could have additional options "Sort Artists with Die" Yes/No
23:51:37	Torne	i expect die krupps to be under K
23:51:47	Torne	but i expect things that are using the english word "die" to be under D
23:51:53	Torne	You cannot do this by matching text :)
23:51:59	AlexP	xenyz: But Die is also english
23:52:22	Torne	also there are a lot of words that mean "the"
23:52:30	Torne	if you consider, like, twenty or thirty languages
23:52:33	Torne	and different genders/etc
23:52:37	xenyz	If my main langage is english, i wouldn't be using the Die sort, and vice-versa for German I'd think
23:52:41	Torne	why not?
23:52:47	Torne	i speak german
23:52:53	Torne	i know what die krupps's name means
23:53:11	xenyz	Are a good 20-30% of band's names "Die somethng" in German?
23:53:23	Torne	or der something, or das something :)
23:53:31	AlexP	No idea, but German isn't the only concern
23:53:36	AlexP	There are lots of languages
23:53:38	xenyz	So that sort would be useful for someone with a german music collection, no?
23:53:54	AlexP	We don't want 30 options, a lot of which won't be right
23:53:55	xenyz	If 30% of your music was showing up under D, etc
23:54:27	AlexP	Unless you happen to have e.g. a band starting with Die in English too
23:54:46	xenyz	I just think Apple got this one right, at least when it's set to English , to sort the artists by the second word if the first is "The"
23:54:59	AlexP	That's because they ignore everyone else
23:55:07	*	gevaerts prefers his view that you can't sort if you have more than one language in the list, so you should always shuffle
23:55:12	xenyz	In fact the majority of indexes put the on the end
23:55:23	gevaerts	They're all wrongf
23:55:23	xenyz	put the 'the' on the end..
23:55:32	xenyz	They're all right :)
23:55:38	gevaerts	Seriously. That English-centrism is very insulting
23:55:57	xenyz	But it would only be when your language is set to English
23:56:14	xenyz	Just lie the iPod, I'm assuming
23:56:25	gevaerts	your language and the language of the text in the list are totally unrelated
23:57:02	AlexP	I dislike things making stupid wrong assumptions for me, and then forcing them on me. This is what Apple excel at
23:57:13	xenyz	I'm just saying that if my player is set to english language, it would be useful to have an option to be able to sort the artists names 'properly' in the usual english-language method
23:57:34	Torne	yes, and we said that a way to do this that would work all the time for everyone would be to support sort tags properly
23:57:39	xenyz	If it doesn't work out for other languages, the option is there to not use :)
23:57:43	AlexP	No
23:57:50	AlexP	The option is to make it work for everyone
23:57:51	Torne	if people do't care to tag their music collections properly then we don't care very much to display them i teh order they want
23:58:09	Torne	adding code for special cases when there is a better way that works for the general case is not generally a good idea
23:58:24	xenyz	I suppose.
23:58:31	Torne	also, Apple use the sort tag
23:58:44	xenyz	Re-tagging an entire collection of music so your player sorts it properly is the other way to see it
23:58:47	Torne	they may also have a heuristic that guesses that "the" is special, if the tag isn't there, i don't know
23:58:55	Torne	but if you have sort tags, then itunes and the ipod sort by that order :)
23:59:00	Torne	including putting Die Krupps under K

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