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#rockbox log for 2013-01-05

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02:46:03[Saint]moben: like a couple of people tried to say, what you should be doing, is setting up different viewports for your "dynamic" content, as opposed to trying to position the content inside the viewport(s) dynamically.
02:47:50[Saint]So then your condition only becomes %?<tag><%Vd(foo|%Vd(bar)>
02:48:09 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
02:48:36[Saint]as opposed to %?<tag><if this, do that, then this, but not this|do other stuff, but only when this this and this is happening>
02:54:10[Saint]zamboni: if we mislead you in any way, by clearly listing the supported targets, please tell us how.
02:55:57[Saint] is pretty clear.
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02:56:33[Saint]Not mentioning the Nano5G at all, is another way of saying "this device is NOT supported".
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02:57:52 Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.55=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
03:01:44moben[Saint]: thanks, but I already got that working :)
03:04:04[Saint]this guy knows where the internet is at...
03:04:07[Saint]"I'll claim (quite falsely) to be a nubile 16 year old girl if that will get me help. "
03:08:14mobenheh, maybe I should have tried that too ;)
03:15:43[Saint]Classic is refusing the play a reasonable portion of the test_files.
03:16:02[Saint]I noticed this the other day, but it is barfing on ore files that I initially thought.
03:17:06[Saint]Some refuse to play at all, and skip to the next track immediately, while others (wmapro) output an IEM killing noise of pain and terror - regardless of the current volume.
03:17:43[Saint]at -60db ("mute" for the Classic), wmapro playback is unbearable.
03:18:03*[Saint] has no other files of this format other than the test files
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03:28:33moben%Vl/%Vd doesn't work in the sbs?
03:28:59[Saint], is that a question?
03:29:21[Saint]Oh, wow...I read that wrong. Derp.
03:29:24[Saint]Yes, it does.
03:29:55[Saint]The .sbs is just like any other themeable screen.
03:30:14[Saint]with the exception of the UI viewport.
03:30:35[Saint](The UI viewport houses the menu/lists)
03:31:01mobenhmmm. if I do %V(..) it works, while if I do %Vl(a,..) %Vd(a), it doesn't
03:32:12mobenhere is what I'm doing:
03:33:04mobenI wanted to make the clock viewport conditional on %?cf, so that I don't waste space for the 24h case
03:33:29moben(make the clock smaller in that case -> more space for the title)
03:33:43[Saint]You're not using a UI viewport, so, the UI viewport is drawing fullscreen.
03:34:23[Saint]protip: you cannot overlap viewports (with one exception).
03:34:41mobenisn't %Vi the UI viewport?
03:35:03[Saint]Yes, but, you've commented it out.
03:35:20[Saint]Oh, bad.
03:35:35[Saint]hard to read this with lots of commented sections.
03:35:52mobensorry for that, I blame the original author though :P
03:38:55mobenthis is what I want to do that doesn't work:
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03:56:00[Saint]I can't see at the present why that wouldn't work, but, I'm a bit distracted.
03:56:18[Saint]If you run this in the simulator, it should be telling you exactly what is wrong if it is a syntax error.
03:57:47[Saint]thought I had a bit more time for "stuff", but, the SO just got home.
03:59:04mobenI won't distract you any further then, have to go to bed anyway ;)
03:59:37mobenThough the simulator didn't mention anything, so I would still welcome comments if anyone finds time
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08:28:30zamboniany springsteen fans?
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10:53:25Tornecan someone ban;u=50273 who is cunningly repeating people's previous posts in a thread but with spam links in their sig? :)
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11:21:52JdGordonTorne: doing
11:23:46JdGordonffs the forums are stupid slow when banning
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13:17:13doomgiverhello, my sansa clip+ is not being detected by the rockbox installer
13:17:38doomgiverdoes it need a microSD card, in order to be detected/installed?
13:18:01doomgiverwindows 7 32 bit, sansa clip+ 2 gb, no SD card
13:20:05funmanno, it doesn't
13:21:30doomgiverhmm, and one more thing, if it is of any use, this clip+ does not recognize SD cards (card is accessible both, while plugged in windows and while plugged in player, from windows)
13:21:56funmanmaybe it's broken then
13:22:02doomgiverbut the clip+ does not show any sd card, when i try to access it.
13:22:13doomgiveroh god, NO
13:22:26doomgiverwell, i did buy it from a friend
13:22:40doomgiverok, thanks, i got my answer
13:24:38funmanI can't debug vlc plugin crashes within firefox
13:24:45funmanoops wrong channel.. sorry
13:32:30bluebrotherthe card could have filesystem errors that confuse the clip+ firmware but Windows tolerates.
13:33:06bluebrotheralso, Rockbox Utility can't detect all players reliably. Not sure about the clip+, but I wouldn't be surprised if detecting its mountpoint isn't possible
13:33:19bluebrother(due to the fact that there is nothing on the player we can use to identify it)
13:33:29bluebrother(nothinhg as in files in the filesystem)
13:38:18doomgiverok, i changed the mode to MSC, detected and installing
13:39:06doomgiverdetected the mountpoint, but autodetect button crashes the application, and i have to manually select my device from the list (the maufacturer list)
13:41:07[Saint]Maybe RbUtil should give a prompt for that?
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13:41:28[Saint]I mean, if people read the manual, it'd be fine...but, that's a pretty big if.
13:41:50[Saint]wrt: switching to MSC
13:43:17[Saint], that wouldn't really work. There's no way for it to really tell the situation it would be applicable to display such a prompt in.
13:46:38doomgiverwell, the manual straight off starts with manual install, with no "these things are REQUIRED" section.
13:47:09doomgiver^^ i meant about that RButil thingy
13:47:26doomgiveranyway, thanks
13:47:32doomgiveri'll rtfm the NEXT time
13:47:42[Saint]"Note: The following steps require you to change the setting in Settings → System Settings → USB Mode to MSC from within the original firmware. Further note that all original firmware settings will be lost immediately after patching the bootloader, so you may need to correct this setting again after installing rockbox.
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13:47:53[Saint]...sorry :)
13:48:20[Saint]that's from the "Before Starting" section.
13:48:23funmana bit dense and maybe lacking 96pixels font, bold and blinking
13:48:44funmanin red foreground above bright green background
13:49:40funmancommenting on doomgiver who says this text should be "REQUIRED"
13:49:53[Saint]Oh, sorry.
13:50:10doomgivermy mistake
13:50:22doomgiveri just sifted through the manual
13:50:28doomgiverbad habit, i know
13:50:33[Saint]Yeah :)
13:50:47funmanConnect your player to the computer via USB in MSC mode as described in the manual that came with your player.
13:50:54funmanthat's the only sentence I see related to msc?
13:51:16funmanhmm sorry it's there for clip+
13:52:09funmannot sure if the same sentence applies to Clip Zip (Sandisk moved/renamed the option in some devices)
13:52:31funmandoomgiver: bad habit true, but nevertheless a common one so we should take it in account
13:53:12[Saint]RbUtil kinda opens the floodgates for the "maybe slightly less technically minded" ;)
13:53:27*[Saint] shakes a fist at bluebrother's monster
13:53:47doomgiveri just saw "DRM", "usb connection". thought ok, i dont need to worry about either. i dont have drm infested crap, and i do have a usb connection, then moved on.
13:54:05doomgiveri dont like the way you are accusing me of being "maybe slightly less technically minded"
13:54:24[Saint]Well, that actually sits kinda badly for you...if you read the USB section?
13:54:32[Saint]The note I pasted above is from that section.
13:54:57doomgiveraccuse them who cry out for help. i installed RB WITHOUT help from you lot.
13:55:06doomgiverstop patronizing
13:55:15 Quit n1s (Read error: Connection timed out)
13:55:16[Saint]I also added a smiley, nor was it directed solely at you. Sorry for trying to add homour to this event.
13:55:35doomgiveri take offense.
13:55:38 Part doomgiver
13:56:36funmani would guess especially the technically minded people do not read the manual
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13:57:30funmanand since windows almost shows no difference between mtp and msc device (except the lack of a device letter) it's hard to guess that you're in MTP mode
13:58:41[Saint]My "nerd experience" must be /quite/ different.
13:59:05[Saint]There's two people in my hackers group that haven't installed Rb yet because they haven't finished reading the manual yet.
13:59:26[Saint]and yes, on the latter.
13:59:45[Saint]But afaik there's no way for RbUtil to guess which mode the player is in.
14:00:33funmanthere is (different pid for MTP mode)
14:00:55funmanthat's for the clipv1
14:01:09funmanclip+ msc = 0x74d1, mtp = 0x74d0
14:01:56funmanthough I guess rbutil uses the usberror field to make sure you did not select a wrong model (ipod nano2g vs ipod nano1g)
14:02:18funmanbut for Sansas it would be impossible, since there's no mount point / device letter when the device is in mtp mode?
14:08:56[Saint]Perhaps it could give some form of Sansa-specific hint if auto-detect fails?
14:08:58[Saint]"Do you have <foo_device>? If so, please ensure it is in MSC mode <LINK> and try again"
14:19:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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14:39:53bedheadUm, i Tried installing, I have The files On my Sansa, and Yet rockbox Doesn't want To work. . .
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14:40:38[Saint]bedhead: could you please explain what you have/have not done.
14:40:47[Saint]...maybe without the random title case?
14:41:01bedheadBut. .
14:41:06bedheadThis is Just how I type.
14:41:32bedheadI downloaded rockbox utility For windows.
14:42:10bedheadI chose My sansa Fuze, and I downloaded The firmware From ther Forum.
14:42:34bedheadI then Installed what Was needed and Provided the Firmware.
14:42:52bedheadI took Out my Sansa and It doesn't Use the Rockbox inside Of it.
14:42:52gevaertsbedhead: if you want people to actually bother reading what you type, following normal conventions is a good start
14:43:11bedheadD: your hurting m me here.
14:43:23bedheadAlrightI will play your game.
14:44:53bedheadSo no explainatiopn to why it's not working?
14:45:17gevaertsDid you use autodetect to pick the exact player type?
14:45:35bedheadI wastold in the tutorial not to do that.
14:45:43gevaertsWhat tutorial?
14:45:52bedheadThat and the first time i autodetected it decided to freeze the program.
14:45:56gevaertsAlways use autodetect unless it fails in some way
14:46:11[Saint]And, what tutorial?
14:46:25[Saint]If we saw that anywhere, we need to correct it.
14:46:33[Saint]If it is from elsewhere, ignore it.
14:47:02bedheadinstall rockbox on sansa plus part 2
14:48:08bedheadI can't see my type thing.
14:48:22bedheadBut that is the name of the video.
14:48:38[Saint]Right, the video which /didn't come from us, at all/.
14:48:49evilnickDon't follow instructions from places that aren't
14:48:51bedheadYou have tutorials?
14:49:01[Saint]We have a manual, and an installer.
14:49:45bedheadI guess I will have a look at that.
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14:51:21wenceslausDoes anyone have any experience installing Rockbox on the 7G '09 160GB iPod Classic? The wiki lists it as unusable at the moment, apparently with charging issues, but I've heard of others successfully using it.
14:51:49[Saint]wenceslaus: the classes there are not literal.
14:52:00[Saint]unusable doesn't necessarily mean "you cannot use it".
14:52:33[Saint]It simply means it doesn't meet the requirements of unstable/stable yet.
14:52:35wenceslausI understand that, but is there any information on what exactly the battery problems are?
14:52:41[Saint]it's kinda non-obvious, I know.
14:52:48[Saint]There are none.
14:52:54[Saint]Where does it say that?
14:53:12wenceslausI'll try to find the link.
14:53:53[Saint]Things missing from the Classic: Recording; A manual; A bootloader (other than emCORE), Dual-boot.
14:54:02[Saint]that info is old, ignore it.
14:54:05wenceslausUnder "new platforms>iPod classic
14:54:37[Saint]Right, it's safe to ignore. The wiki often has information on it that is ancient.
14:55:11[Saint]wenceslaus: here -
14:55:13wenceslausOK, is this site up-to-date and reliable? I know it's not straight from rockbox but it seems to be legit.
14:55:20[Saint]Ignore that link.
14:55:36[Saint]If it isn't from, or the freemyipod project, ignore it.
14:55:38wenceslausI'm sorry. Which one?
14:55:42wenceslausOh, alright then.
14:55:46[Saint]the one you posted.
14:55:54wenceslausOK, then that's all. Thanks guys.
14:56:08[Saint]The link I posted is an interactive install guide.
14:56:13[Saint]You'll get there :)
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14:58:13*[Saint] wonders what we or the google gods are doing wrong that people don't end up at freemyipod/ when searching for these things
14:59:14gevaertsbedhead: anyway, in short, if *nothing* happens on the fuze, that's likely caused by an installation for the fuzev2 on a v1 or vice versa
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15:00:14gevaertsbedhead: I'd recommend removing the .rockbox directory from the player before you try again
15:01:15[Saint]gevaerts: might that cause an improper detection?
15:01:56TheSeven[Saint]: you forgot IAP :)
15:02:12bedheadAlright i will get Rid of rockbox.
15:02:26bedheadI am Sorry for The caps But typing Like you Get me A bit On edge.
15:02:38[Saint]TheSeven: I worded that incorrectly - "things missing that people care about" :P
15:02:47bedheadI have Typed like This for At least a year, It's ahabiot.
15:02:55*TheSeven assumes that more people care about IAP than about recording
15:03:49[Saint]TheSeven: since you're here, are there known codec issues with the Classic?
15:03:50bedheadHow do You tell The difference Between v1 And v2?
15:04:03[Saint]Mine seems to barf *real* bad on the wmapro test files.
15:05:09[Saint]bedhead: check the original firmware
15:05:29[Saint]V1 == 1.XX.XX, V2 == 2.XX.XX
15:05:31TheSeven[Saint]: I haven't run into any, but i'm mostly using mp3 and vorbis
15:06:01TheSevenanyway, back when i ported it I did codec performance tests and didn't notice issues
15:06:11[Saint]I ran test_coded on the test_files, and noted a few that decoded in 4000000% realtime
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15:06:29[Saint]then I tried actually /listening/ to the audio, and nearly deafened myself.
15:06:43TheSevenhm, but the codec actually loaded?
15:06:49[Saint]Even with the volume at mute, an unbearable screaching is produced.
15:07:01TheSevenand it's working on other devices?
15:07:22TheSevenespecially nano2g?
15:07:25[Saint]I only had my iPod 4G at the time, and it worked there.
15:07:50TheSeventhat's a v2 then
15:07:57[Saint]I can test on N2G in the morning, I'll leave a note here, or possibly open a bug report if I find more.
15:08:06[Saint]I just wanted to ask if it was kown for now.
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15:42:13bedheadI would Like to Thank your Support.
15:42:19bedheadI now Am using Rockbox.
15:43:07 Quit pamaury_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
15:43:35bedheadIt appears That oom Requires more Buttons.
15:43:43bedheadI: can't Open doors.
15:47:39[Saint]Doom on a DAP is nothing more than a novelty.
15:47:45[Saint]It won't ever work "right".
15:48:08bedheadHow ab out Pokemon for The next?
15:48:37[Saint]the next....?
15:49:33[Saint]Nothing has changed with the Rockboy plugin for *years*.
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15:50:04bedheadHow do You get Pokemon on It then?
15:50:20bedheadDo i Need to Some how Get the Emulator on, And then The game?
15:50:40[Saint]The emulator is a plugin, it is already there.
15:50:45[Saint]All you need is a ROM.
15:50:54[Saint]I suspect you're trying to use a GBA ROM.
15:51:10[Saint]Only GB/GBC is supported.
15:51:21[Saint](and, even then, not very well)
15:51:21bedheadThen i Will use Yellow version.
15:51:49bedheadIt appears I have All the Buttons needed.
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16:19:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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17:23:57bluebrother[Saint]: what monster?
17:24:24[Saint]I was being humorous (or attempting to) regarding RbUtil
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17:26:31bluebrotherwell, autodetection is something that needs rework ...
17:26:44bluebrotheron some players we tell the user the player is in mtp mode (IIRC)
17:27:13[Saint]Oh, no, that's not why I called it a monster. I theorized that RbUtil opened the floodgates for not needing to read the manual.
17:27:14bluebrotheractually, that should work for the clip+
17:27:32bluebrother // treat all other errors as MTP device for now.
17:27:54bluebrotherwhere "all other" is all errors that are not a MacPod error
17:28:24bluebrotherwhich means that in the case earlier Rockbox Utility should have presented a dialog box telling that the player is in MTP mode and needs to get changed to MSC first
17:28:40[Saint]Hum, I was unaware it did that. Perhaps the poster gleefully disregarded the prompt.
17:28:44bluebrotherof course unless there is a bug that prevents this from working :)
17:28:58bluebrotherdid someone tell something about a crash earlier?
17:29:37bluebrotherI could imagine something causing a crash, resulting in the user not seeing that dialog box
17:29:48bluebrotherbut in general this issue has been accounted for ...
17:30:33bluebrotherhmm. No, nothing crash related in the backlog. Just a "doesn't recognize". Gnah.
17:30:41bluebrotherMaybe Sandisk changed USB IDs
17:31:08bluebrotherbut if there are new USB IDs and nobody reports them ...
17:34:28[Saint]bluebrother: I thought the same thing, about someone mentioning a crash, when you mentioned it. I had a brief look and I missed it at first, but, one was reported.
17:34:30[Saint][01:39:07] <doomgiver> detected the mountpoint, but autodetect button crashes the application, and i have to manually select my device from the list (the maufacturer list)
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18:39:44bluebrother[Saint]: ok ... autodetection really needs a rework anyway. Maybe I should give that a bit of preference ... I was currently looking into Qt5 compatibility
18:39:57bluebrother(which is actually possible with the same codebase, but a few changes are necessary)
18:40:14bluebrotherso now somebody give me enough free time and motivation :)
18:42:55[Saint]...if there's any left, I'll take soem of that too.
18:44:09bluebrotherof time or motivation? ;-)
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18:58:28pamaurybluebrother: am I right that bootloader version check in rbutil is unimplemented ?
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19:20:15bluebrotherpamaury: for most devices we cannot check this.
19:21:27pamauryok but my question is: if the bootloader installer support this, does the software use this information or not. If I understand the code correctly it seems to be completely unsupported.
19:22:19bluebrotherthe bootloader installer only checks if a bootloader is installed. It cannot detect the version of the bootloader
19:22:41bluebrotherfor one, we don't have any information in the bootloader to (reliably) retrieve the version number, like in a specific place in the binary
19:22:58bluebrothersecond, on most players we can't access the bootloader file after it has been installed
19:23:18bluebrotheras a result we simply put the timestamp of the file on the server in the installation log
19:23:33bluebrotherwe could use that information and check if the file on the server is newer. But that is not implemented.
19:23:50bluebrotherso in other words: yes, it is completely unsupported :)
19:24:49pamauryon imx233, I see possible ways of implementing this
19:25:04pamaurybut that's probably an exception
19:25:35bluebrotherwell, if we can implement it in a way that works with the current implementation I don't have any objections to extending that :)
19:26:24[Saint]Could the bootloader generate a file of the storage partition?
19:26:36[Saint]*on the
19:27:04bluebrothersure, but that's not really reliable. If someone deletes that file (or messes with it) ...
19:27:17bluebrotherotoh ... do our bootloaders have write support?
19:27:28[Saint]Pass, that's why I asked :)
19:27:48[Saint]It's not really reliable, but, it's better than nothing, no?
19:28:12[Saint]just to use as a "there may be a newer version available" check.
19:28:31pamauryon imx233 you could do this because the standard sdk (and thus most OF) support r/w to arbitrary partition, including the bootloader one. And if rockbox is already running, it could either emulate the same thing or write a file with this information. That would require implementing vendor SCSI on both windows and linux though
19:30:10bluebrotherand OS X :o
19:30:19bluebrotherwhich is a pain.
19:31:23pamauryyeah, but on some devices (zen xfi2) that's also the only way you can rewrite the bootloader
19:31:45bluebrotherso ... don't support those devices! ;-)
19:33:51pamauryactually i'm lying a bit, the zen xfi2 has a recovery mode so we could ask the user to enter recovery mode then send a binary to handle the upgrade
19:34:09[Saint]similar to the Classic
19:34:25[Saint]wrt: needing manual intervention to install
19:36:25bluebrotherhmm, writing a unit test for the HttpGet class is interesting. Starts to show some ... interesting behaviour in some cases ;-)
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20:38:55bluebrotherhaving the sim save its screenshots as png could be really useful. Especially if that feature is automatically enabled if libpng is found
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20:40:22[Saint]someone reported that to be non-functional actually...I still need to check that.
20:40:50[Saint](saying the screendump process appeared to work, but no file(s) were written to the simdisk)
20:41:08bluebrotherF5 works nicele for me
20:41:34bluebrotherthe only "problem" is that the output file is bmp :)
20:41:49bluebrotherwe could also use SDL_image to load the background image for the sim from a png graphic.
20:41:52[Saint]Oh? there actually a "grab a screenshot" button?
20:42:17bluebrotherthough that would add another dependency. I wouldn't mind this, but perhaps someone else does?
20:42:23bluebrotheryes there is.
20:42:40[Saint]Well, I'll be damned. I had no idea.
20:42:53[Saint]The sim suffers from an amazingly bad lack of documentation.
20:44:05[Saint]I've discovered the keys I know from word of mouth and trial and error.
20:44:13[Saint]I didn't know that one though, thanks.
20:45:52bluebrotheroh, keypad 0 also triggers a screenshot
20:46:22bluebrotherhave a look at firmware/target/hosted/sdl/button-sdl.c
20:47:51bluebrothersomething I was also thinking about was changing the buttons to use hjkl for movements −− not having a numpad on the machine can be annoying with the sim :)
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20:51:20*gevaerts doesn't think that having the bootloader write stuff is a good idea
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20:54:46[Saint]I never said it was a /good/ idea...
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20:59:37gevaertsHaving the bootloader pass its version at a specified memory location and then having that in about/rockbox would be better I think. SWUSB targets could also have a custom SCSI command to read it
20:59:45gevaerts(also in bootloader USB)
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21:05:40*[Saint] thinks it mighty impressive that dobbley was still watching the H120 USB UDMA mod thread after almost 4 years
21:06:09[Saint]necroposting done right.
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22:46:41bluebrothergevaerts: do you remember if SWUSB targets support setting the time via custom SCSI or is that only on the Ipods?
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22:53:46[Saint]bluebrother: r22255
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22:55:25*[Saint] occasionally has decent grep-fu
22:55:53bluebrothermaybe implementing support for that in Rockbox Utility would be a nice thing.
22:56:02bluebrotherthough custom SCSI on OS X ... :o
22:56:27[Saint]I seem to recall there being some form of ipod-specific tool to set the time, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
22:56:43[Saint]maybe it wasn't official, and/or I'm dreaming it.
22:57:39[Saint]ah, thanks.
22:57:51bluebrotherbut it's linux only
22:57:57*[Saint] nods
22:58:26bluebrotherso I guess that would need porting to W32 and OS X, and maybe even trying to make it work without sg3_utils
22:59:30[Saint]Bah! Samsung has ruined me. I can't see sg3 without thinking Android
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23:32:21pamaurybluebrother: it's not hard to send custom scsi without sg3_utils, there is a library for it
23:32:31pamauryon W32 it's really easy too
23:32:34mobenSo, I'm still struggling to get conditional viewports to work in a .sbs screen.
23:32:38mobenthis is what I want to do that doesn't work:
23:33:14[Saint]well, that won't work, no.
23:33:23[Saint]For different reasons that yesterday.
23:33:30mobenit's the same ;-)
23:33:47mobenbut tell me, I'm all ears
23:33:50[Saint]It isn't what you showed me yesterday, no.
23:34:26moben03:38:57 moben | this is what I want to do that doesn't work: _ derf
23:34:29moben03:56:02 [Saint] | I can't see at the present why that wouldn't work, but, I'm a bit distracted.
23:35:19[Saint]<moben> here is what I'm doing:
23:35:57moben[Saint]: that works. the one with conditional viewports doesn't
23:37:49[Saint]Hum, my obvious syntax error was a Chrome rendering snafoo.
23:38:23*[Saint] doesn't suppose that moben is set up to compile Rockbox?
23:38:37moben[Saint]: sure can do
23:38:49moben[Saint]: already had to compile the simulator ;-)
23:39:00[Saint]compile checkwps for your target.
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23:40:44[Saint]it's the same as building anything else, just select the target number, and then "C"
23:41:08[Saint]then checkwps /path/to/file
23:41:45[Saint]Assuming it is syntactical error that for <some_reason> (I'll probably kick myself later for), this will display it.
23:46:35moben[Saint]: it says OK
23:47:26[Saint]...which likely explains why I've been staring at your example for some combined time wondering what isn't obvious to me.
23:47:57[Saint]JdGordon: ^ This

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