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#rockbox log for 2013-02-25

00:04:01 Quit shamus (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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00:11:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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00:29:11saratogaare we releasing 3.13 for the Recorder?
00:29:31*[Saint] apparently missed something
00:30:18[Saint]Hum, nope, still riddled with errors.
00:30:42[Saint]I guess I mis-parsed that as "we now have a working recorder build again" for some reason.
00:34:54gevaertsIt builds with one or two features disabled. See gerrit
00:37:38[Saint]I'm pretty sure the 2 people that use the target won't mind that.
00:39:26JdGordonthats awefully arbitrary
00:39:30JdGordonwhy those feautres?
00:40:13[Saint]Why any other?
00:40:34JdGordonwell indeed
00:40:37[Saint]The thing weighs a tonne, you'll break your wrist flipping it. ;)
00:40:38 Quit prof_wolfff (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:40:57[Saint]And, morse input is nice...but, it's a novelty, really, isn;t it?
00:41:27JdGordonI imagine it is MUCH faster to type with than the keyboard if you know morse
00:41:54 Quit n1s (Quit: Ex-Chat)
00:42:02[Saint]Ah, without a scrollwheel, yes.
00:42:17soapeven with.
00:42:31[Saint]But, then, the virtual keyboard/typing at all seems a bit of a novelty to me anyway.
00:43:19soapmorse can be done w/o sight or voice and I don't know how good Rockbox's implementation is, but 30WPM should be easy for a trained individual.
00:43:38[Saint]I assume most people use the standard "built in" keyboard layout, which is *really* terrible.
00:43:50[Saint]If you use your own .kbd file, it's not so bad.
00:43:57gevaertsThe recorder doesn't have that many features to disable in the first place
00:45:37[Saint]scrape out the ten-thousand skin engine features it won't/can't use.
00:45:38 Join copper [0] (~copper@unaffiliated/copper)
00:46:13gevaertsThose don't have easy defines to comment out
00:46:37JdGordon[Saint]: they are all usable
00:46:58JdGordonthe swcodec ones are already ifdefed
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00:50:35[Saint]AH. My mistake.
00:51:04*[Saint] is slightly wary about touching themes for a while
00:51:26JdGordontrust me, you'll appreciate it in the end
00:51:39[Saint]...I was going to do that today, but, since a lot of my themes are more "exotic" than most, I think I'll leave it until you're finished.
00:52:02JdGordonthe only thing I'm touching is the list tags
00:52:11[Saint]I don't want to have to re-write the list drawing parts, which are pretty silly.
00:52:16[Saint]heh...yeah ;)
00:52:18JdGordonbut i really need to get discussion on how to make these new tags be useable
00:52:56[Saint]Can we have a new tag for the recursive next and current metadata?
00:53:09[Saint]I can't stress how much I dislike using the current ones.
00:53:13JdGordonthere is no need
00:53:30JdGordonit won't end up being non-obvious
00:53:42JdGordonplus, its exactly as broken as the current WPS playlist viewer
00:53:58[Saint]Yeah, you ever see that in my themes? ;)
00:54:01JdGordonso in actual fact, I guess noone will use the feature
00:54:12JdGordonso it makes no difference
00:54:36[Saint]It makes a difference if all of a sudden tags start doing one thing in one place, and another everywhere else.
00:54:40[Saint]Nowhere else does this happen.
00:54:43JdGordonthey wont
00:55:03JdGordonit wont magically trigger, it requires the repeater tag and then only for that viewporet
00:55:40[Saint]I still think it would make more sense to not re-use it.
00:56:24JdGordonwe'll see... but anyway, thats not the part i want to talk about... the 2 new child viewport tags really need syntax help
00:56:44JdGordonmy goal is for them to be 100% posotion and sizeable at runtime
00:57:45[Saint]Why at runtime?
00:58:16JdGordonperhaps you want to draw the line selector the width of the text, not the full line length
00:58:42JdGordonor you want to stick 3 viewports next to eachother
00:58:51JdGordonand you want to shaee the one skin file among every target
00:59:50[Saint]Am I the only one that actually thinks that skinned lists are ok or something?
00:59:56[Saint]Or, gevaerts and I? :)
01:00:15JdGordonfine, but the code to make it work is horrendous
01:00:31JdGordonand it cant do everything the drawn one can which means it cant be removed
01:01:06[Saint]I understand what you're doing, but this seems more cumbersome to me.
01:02:00[Saint]But my main objection is the horrid creature %i* turned into.
01:02:28JdGordonrelax :)
01:03:28[Saint]Oh, I'm calm. You'd know if I wasn't. There'd be a lot more four letter words being said ;)
01:04:08[Saint]I'm not sure I can describe myself accurately. The behavior of %i* in your demo is something I would've called a bug.
01:04:10JdGordonI *may* be open to adding a new prefix for this if it really matters
01:04:22[Saint]When that tag, everywhere else, only ever returns data for the current track.
01:05:30[Saint]maybe add a prefix or suffix to %I*...but, see, even then I wouldn't like the fact that the behavior in lists different from the other screens.
01:05:30JdGordonbut pretty please... %vs() and %vp() need alot of thinking about... %vc(id) will always create a child vp at (0,0) of the outer viewport, w/h are undefined... so %vs() and %vp() need to be used to get the correct size
01:05:34JdGordonbut how
01:06:19JdGordon%vs(foo, copy) <- copy the 'foo' child viewports size?
01:06:45JdGordon%vp(bar, left, 10) <- position this child on the left of bar with 10 pixel gap?
01:08:34[Saint]Just so I understand your lingo for parent/child, every user-defined viewport is a child, yes?
01:08:51[Saint]And the default (fullscreen) vp always the parent?
01:09:53[Saint]Ah, nope. Right.
01:11:36JdGordon%V() is a real viewport (the parent)
01:11:48JdGordon%v*() is a child viepwort of exxactly one parent
01:12:10JdGordonall %v's in a parent are siblings and can refer to eachother, but not to other parent's children vp's
01:12:46JdGordonthe reason for this is the skin engine needs a real viewport to move around convininetly (for the repeating)
01:12:56 Quit saratoga (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
01:13:32JdGordonmy idea is each %vp/vs moves or sizes one aspect of the child, so you'd need to have a few in each child to get it where you want it
01:13:41JdGordonthough maybe not if tha gets unwieldy
01:13:45[Saint]...won't this fuck the touchscreen list spacing?
01:14:22JdGordonremember, this is replacing the entire list ui code, (I'll add touchscreen caps on once it is working)
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01:14:40JdGordonthe default list code will function identically to the current code
01:14:52JdGordonbut it will be skin drawn instead
01:16:49[Saint]as for vp() and vs(), I can't, at the moment, think of a way to do that that even works. Let alone is remotely sane.
01:17:10JdGordonwhich is why its all in my head so far... im stuck too
01:17:19[Saint]I can't think of a way it could make sense if you wanted multiple vps to share the same ident
01:17:21JdGordonbut it needs to be this flexible or it wont work
01:18:25[Saint]as you might want to fire a bunch of vps at the same time (so same ident is easiest), but have them all in a differnet location, with different sizing.
01:18:32[Saint]...and, things would get weird.
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01:22:11JdGordonI'm open to other suggestions
01:22:40JdGordonmy benchmark is if the current list can be drawn with the skin then its likely good enough
01:23:25JdGordonbut yes, it also gets very interesting if the current selection item should be a bigger size than the others (whichshould just work with my idea)
01:23:30[Saint]Wavy should probably be the benchmark ;)
01:23:50JdGordonwavy isnt doing anything interesting imo
01:24:18[Saint]More so than I imagine cabbiev2 would be.
01:25:12JdGordonsome new tags I need to add... "%Vu()" to get the UI viewport rect, %?? to get the text length
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07:18:46JdGordon[Saint]: how does this look?
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08:50:07wodzIs UCL unpacker in-place?
08:51:06wodzI mean can we use ucl packed main binary? This would decrease load time most probably as loading from storage is usually the slowest part of the loading.
08:56:09wodznevermind, the question doesn't make any sense.
08:57:26wodzbut idea to use ucl packed main binary to speed up booting still holds, just as linux kernel is loaded in compressed form into ram.
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09:14:43ukleinekwodz: You can setup the linux kernel to decompress directly from flash.
09:18:52wodzukleinek: btw. C-M3 @ 48 should be capable to support mp3, vorbis and loseless formats.
09:19:38wodzukleinek: I know, zImage has 'built-in' decompressor
09:20:55wodzfor rockbox this is different thing usually, as bootloader loads main binary image to ram from storage and jumps to the entry point. For rombox we use ucl packing already IIRC
09:24:15 Quit bertrik (Read error: Operation timed out)
09:24:43ukleinekwodz: alternatively the bootloader can decompress from storage directly into ram. (Note, I don't know ucl packing, so that might be the same)
09:26:01wodzyes, but the downside is that you will need to update ALL bootloaders. I am not going to touch bootloaders when not strictly needed
09:26:42wodzanyway it is faster to load blob from storage in one big chunk and decompress in mem
09:30:55sargwodz: i wrote a perl script for unpacking rk30/rk29 loader binaries sarg/5028505">
09:32:20sargBTW, scramble function is RC4 algorithm, so I used openssl to descramble files
09:33:27wodzsarg: It is documented on our wiki that it is RC4 :-)
09:33:51wodzsarg: you still need the key
09:33:53sargyes, I but you should mention, that input is split by 512 bytes blocks
09:34:15wodzsarg: well I documented this so you know...
09:35:08wodzsarg: you want to substitue loader with uboot, right?
09:35:14wodzwhat about ftl then?
09:35:30sargdefine ftl?
09:35:49wodzflash translation layer
09:36:12sargi don't know, it is questions I think you can answer )
09:36:25sargwhat did you did in rk27 case ?
09:37:16sargi am novice to embedded, and this is my first experience, so I may be doing silly steps
09:37:24wodzI am reverse engineering ftl but this is hard task. Currently we don't support internal flash at all.
09:37:45wodzrockbox boots and supports uSD only for now.
09:38:19sargmy main priority is to boot ubuntu native, without android chroot
09:38:45wodzthat is irrelevant, you need to boot from somewhere
09:39:15sargyes, i am saying that don't know if u-boot is necessary in my case
09:40:45wodzright, if you can force original loader to load arbitrary image you don't
09:41:09wodzbut still the kernel would need to support ftl to read internal flash
09:41:24sargbut i have kernel provided by manufacturer
09:41:47sargthey released source codes, so ftl driver should be in there ?
09:41:57wodzok, out of curiosity ftl is in source form or as binary blob?
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09:44:39sargwodz: in Rockchip27xx wiki page you give detailed boot sequence, how did you obtain that information
09:45:44wodzreverse engineering rom loader mostly
09:45:45sarghow do i find offsets where loader parts are loaded
09:46:13wodzleaked sdk just confirmed my findings
09:46:53sargfor example, The bootrom copies this initialization image to the buffer at 0x18200E00
09:47:02sargwhere did this offset come from?
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09:48:31wodz0x18200000 is uncached static ram e00 is just arbitrary offset taken by rockchip
09:49:33sarghow do i find this offset for rk30 SoC ?
09:50:14wodzI am afraid linux sources are the only reference as AFAIK no datasheet leaked
09:50:41ukleineksarg: the offset is in the ROM loader, too.
09:53:45sargukleinek: please define what ROM loader is? is it loader put directly into SoC internal memory?
09:54:01wodzit is placed in SoC masked rom
09:55:41sargno way to get this data using jtag ?
09:57:26wodzIt is mem mapped region but it may be shadowed (like in case of rk27xx), don't know how they did it in later versions
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09:59:10wodzand rk2705/6 don't have jtag available
09:59:17ukleineksarg: for rk2700 there is a way getting the data using wget :-)
10:00:35wodzukleinek: ?
10:01:13wodzanyway gtg
10:01:16 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
10:02:49ukleinekwodz: google for "rk27 bootrom.tar.bz2" (without the quotes).
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10:10:39sargukleinek: alemaxx is one of rockbox members ?
10:10:56ukleineksarg: I don't think so.
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10:28:13[Saint]wodz: (logs) If Rockbox doesn't, you might want to take a look at eCORE
10:28:29[Saint]re: UCL compression for payload/binary
10:28:40[Saint]*emCORE too
10:30:30[Saint]JdGordon: One problem, you can't use %vs
10:30:45[Saint](it is already "variable set")
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10:33:07[Saint]wodz: I left a comment for you just now in the logs
10:33:10[Saint]re: UCL
10:33:18*wodz scrolls back
10:33:55[Saint]emCORE definitely has a very lightweight UCL implementation, could be a good start.
10:34:24wodzI belive we use the same implementation of ucl unpacker
10:35:54wodzAlemaxx is not our developer, nor actively follows rockbox rk27xx development. He answers emails though.
10:36:48wodzand still this rom had to be dumped in the first place (kudos to Alemaxx!!!)
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10:51:37sargwodz: so, do you know how he obtained bootrom?
10:56:37wodzYes, I know. He crafted custom binary image, forged it in rkw format known to stock loader and booted. The crafted image dumped rom and send it back using UART.
10:57:55wodzor he used dfu loader, don't know which way was the first
10:57:56sargawesome :)
11:01:19sarghm, if i have android running on my rk30 device, I may write assembly code to retrieve any memory region?
11:02:24wodzthe main question is how to access this memory :-)
11:03:09wodzon rk27xx you need to flip one register which ruins normal operation, dump the content and then restore special reg value
11:05:33 Quit Staphylo (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
11:07:42*[Saint] wonders if anyone has any interest in the Department of Corrections modified Clip firmware I acquired from an individual recently released from their custody
11:08:24sargmalloc some space, switch SoC in some mode, where every interrupts are disabled or so, copy sectors to allocated space, restore everything. repeat
11:08:26[Saint]Apparently they're doing a bunch of "weird things (TM)", none of which are particularly interesting for Rockbox, but may be interesting for other reasons.
11:08:53[Saint](such as disabling the USB settings and requiring the device to sync with a main server every 14 days)
11:09:50wodzsarg: this switching SoC thing... I guess you don't have a clue yet how to do it
11:11:28JdGordon[Saint]: why not?
11:11:51[Saint]JdGordon: it's already used, you should know these things ;)
11:11:58[Saint]It is "variable set"
11:12:01JdGordonand apart from that
11:12:07[Saint](pairs with "variable get")
11:12:37[Saint]I'm not sure another reason is needed?
11:12:48[Saint]The tag is in use, you need another :)
11:13:06JdGordoni mean, apart from not using that tag, other opinions
11:13:14*[Saint] does apologize for not spotting the double-up earlier
11:14:01[Saint]Being perfectly honest, I think the syntax is nightmarish...but, I couldn;t come up with anything better.
11:14:19JdGordoni agree
11:14:29JdGordonim very open to something more minimal
11:14:36[Saint]I'm deeply afraid you'll end up making an awesome system that is damn near impossible to use due to the nightmarish syntax required.
11:14:54JdGordonhehe maybe
11:14:58JdGordonim ok wit that :p
11:15:59JdGordon(not really)
11:20:00gevaertswodz: the issue I have is that I don't really know what I'm doing :)
11:20:17gevaertsWell, I mean, I won't know what I'm doing again when I get home tonight
11:20:56JdGordongevaerts: can i interest you in the pastebin i linked hours ago?
11:24:01wodzgevaerts: What are you going to achieve? debuging with gdb or reflash?
11:24:26gevaertswodz: reflash is the most important one, but debugging could be useful too
11:24:44gevaertsI built the bdm tools from, and I built gdb
11:25:23wodzgevaerts: this are not quite compatible with cf5049/50
11:25:35gevaertsAh, maybe that's my problem then
11:25:52wodzgevaerts: I made some hacky patch once upon a time
11:26:03gevaertsThe h300 connects fine with bdm-chk, and I can *sometimes* connect to it from within gdb
11:26:42wodzgevaerts: for reflashing you need to contact Niels
11:27:01gevaertsI didn't have any luck with the h120, but the connector was a bit loose (and came off later...), so that's not a software issue probably
11:27:22gevaertsLinusN: any documentation on how to actually flash an iriver over bdm?
11:27:36wodzI believe there were some trickery involved like shorting some pin to prevent spontaneous reset\
11:27:45wodzah, right it was Linus
11:28:09gevaertsAh, right
11:29:54gevaertsJdGordon: I need to play with that a bit to get a good idea
11:30:04gevaertsNot now though. I have work :)
11:30:24[Saint]gevaerts: It needs to exist in a place other than JdGordon's head first :)
11:30:35[Saint] don't want to go in there and play, I'm guessing :
11:30:50gevaertsWell, I can try to copy parts of his head first :)
11:31:37gevaertsI mean, just reading the description doesn't mean much to me. I need to work out an example, even if there's no code yet to parse it
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11:32:54LinusNgevaerts: there are a few options
11:33:57wodzLinusN: btw, do you have bdm server patch somewhere? I think I emailed it to you. Can't find it on my local computer
11:34:58LinusN1) write a program that uses the BDM lib to write to the flash using only BDM commands. i did that with the p&E parallel port wiggler, and that works for the usb variant as well, but it is slooooooooooow.
11:38:19LinusNwodz: sure, i can send it back to you
11:38:35wodzLinusN: great!
11:38:39LinusNgevaerts: did the h120 connector fall off?
11:41:51LinusNwodz: you mean the m68k-bdm-1.4-pre4.wo patch?
11:42:03wodzLinusN: yes
11:44:07gevaertsLinusN: it's not fully off, but yes, it came loose
11:45:10LinusNdamn. i didn't have access to the best equipment. perhaps you could send me the pcb?
11:46:29LinusNanyway, option 2) is to write a flashing program which you load using gdb, along with a binary blob with the flash data to load into RAM, and then run the program to flash. it takes a little shorter time, but the transfer time of the flash data is still quite painful.
11:47:07LinusNoption 3) is to put the flash image on disk, and let the flashing program load the image from disk and flash it.
11:47:19LinusNi have done option 1) and 2), but not 3).
11:48:03LinusNand you need to build the correctly patched tools
11:49:20wodzoption 4 is to load rockbox image into mem with bdm and use flash plugin from there
11:49:53wodzassuming you have plugins on disk
11:52:10wodzLinusN: many thanks, got the patch
11:54:02gevaertsLinusN: I'll first see if someone here can do it
11:54:30gevaertsAh, right. I should be able to prepare the disk with a set of plugins and a working bootloader to flash
11:57:04wodzLinusN: Am I correct that there was some pin to short on h300?
11:58:14LinusNyes, i just added that info to the iriverbdm wiki page
12:02:31wodzI think alternatively one may hold 'power on button' during bdm transfer. At least this worked on hd200 which is based on the same reference design
12:04:50LinusNthat works on the h100, but i'm not sure it works as well on the h300
12:05:33*gevaerts will find out!
12:10:20sargguy is just reading /dev/mem to get bootrom
12:10:28sargi'll give it a try
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12:11:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:20:54LinusNi just added some nice pictures to showing the location of the (missing) resistors
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12:58:25BraindamagedHey Guys MY Sansa Clip+ is bricked and I dont have the means or skils to perform a recovery, does anyone in the UK want it? I'm willing to post it to anyone Free of charge if it will all go to the cause of makeing RB bigger and better :)
13:03:06 Quit petur (Quit: *plop*)
13:03:14[Saint]I guess international shipping (with compensation) is out of the question?
13:03:33*[Saint] doesn't really need any more half-bricked Sansas, though.
13:03:50Tornei probably shouldn't take any more players until i'm done with the previous ones.
13:04:19[Saint]The Clip+ isn't really needed from a developer standpoint is it?
13:04:28[Saint]It's basically stable afaik.
13:04:51*[Saint] never uses his
13:05:43BraindamagedHey Saint, Ive replaced it with another Clip+ so whoever wants it can have it as long as the postage is not going to kill me ;)
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14:51:00copperthe battery charge indicator on the Fuze+ is alternating between 99% and 166%
14:51:51 Quit qoeme (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331])
14:53:45 Quit XavierGr (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:56:46[Saint]Nice one ;)
14:57:25 Quit mt (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:57:35[Saint]You could likely "fix" that with the skin engine alone.
14:57:54[Saint]...but, that != fixing it, merely working around it.
14:59:15[Saint]%?if(%pv, <=, 99)<100|%pv>
14:59:33[Saint]copper: ^
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15:01:17[Saint]%?if(%pv, <=, 99)<100%%|%pv%%>
15:01:29[Saint]oh, no, derp.
15:01:42[Saint]%?if(%pv, <=, 99)<100|%pv>%%
15:05:06[Saint]double fuck.
15:05:21*[Saint] needs some sleep, apparently.
15:06:15[Saint](all the above snippet is doing is "if the battery level is ever above 99%, always display it as 100%", but, that's just a fix for it anoying you until it /really/ gets fixed)
15:09:04pixelmaisn't the <= wrong there then?
15:09:22 Quit TheLemonMan (Read error: Operation timed out)
15:09:26[Saint]...hahahaha, yes.
15:09:33*[Saint] is not having a good day.
15:10:14[Saint]Indeed, s/<=/</
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15:13:18pixelmaerr... not ">"? Although I have to admit that I haven't looked at the if tag yet
15:13:54[Saint]Right. Bedtime.
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15:21:51copperdamn it
15:22:08copperthe cover artwork is 3 x 3 pixels again
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15:23:57[Saint]Which theme?
15:24:03[Saint]Still rayboradio?
15:24:40copperI had the same problem with the classic port
15:24:57copperI didn't have that problem with a 2012/12 build
15:25:05[Saint]Are you using embedded, or file-based AA?
15:25:44copperand I can't find a 2012/12 build for the fuze
15:26:13copperwell, it needs to be fixed anyway
15:27:09coppergonna try a 3.12 build
15:27:13[Saint]The theme isn't doing anything weird (with regards to AA), though, it is quite nastily coded.
15:27:22[Saint]Also, I can't repro.
15:27:36copperthere's no stable build for the fuze+
15:27:54copperwell I can't find a build that would work
15:28:11[Saint]There's no stable build, unsurprisingly, because it's no stable ;)
15:28:21copperyes I realize that
15:28:38[Saint]...kinda made the above a bit of a non-statement then?
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15:29:39copperwhat can I do?
15:29:58[Saint]File a bug report, with repro steps.
15:30:08[Saint]Like all bugs.
15:30:39[Saint]But, wait.
15:31:14[Saint]Before you do that, you're using an absolutely current build - from our build farm, yes?
15:31:59pixelmaAre the files displayed correctly in our image viewer, so if selected separately?
15:32:19[Saint]Ok, then shoot. File a bug report. And I'll try and reproduce it on real hardware later in the day.
15:32:35[Saint]The sim is behaving exactly as I would expect it to presently.
15:32:42copperpixelma: yes
15:35:08[Saint]There's absolutely no reason why this would affect any one target over another, and, I'm not seeing it and the targets I have near me.
15:35:29[Saint]I'll borrow a Fuze+ from our hackerspace this afternoon.
15:35:44[Saint]*on the targets I have near me
15:36:34copperthe tiny colored square at the top of the frame, in the middle, is the cover artwork
15:36:37copper300x300 jpg
15:37:12[Saint]that seems /slightly/ larger than 3x3 :)
15:37:23copperwell I didn't count :P
15:37:49[Saint]Is this a "sometimes" thing, or, an "always" thing?
15:37:56[Saint]I noted you said "again".
15:38:24copperI said again because I had the same problem with rayboradio theme for the iPod Classic (iPod Video)
15:40:57[Saint]The relevant section is correct:
15:41:22[Saint]...there's nothing wrong there, but, there's some less-than-nice things going on elsewhere in the theme.
15:41:37[Saint]None of which should have any effect on AA, though.
15:44:03[Saint]lebellium seems to be pretty awesome at crafting themes that mess shit up, though.
15:44:12[Saint]and this was derived from one of his works.
15:44:24*[Saint] swears that man is cursed
15:45:36lebelliumI'm currently porting my theme to the C200 but I'm sure I don't need my theme to get the USB connection not working :)
15:45:58[Saint]Hehe :P
15:46:37gevaertslebellium: USB on c200 should be pretty stable
15:46:50lebelliumSo far only the WPS is almost ready but with other theme's SBS, the USB connection doesn't work.
15:48:21lebelliumI guess I have 7 rockboxed players, the USB connection works properly on none...
15:48:56*gevaerts of course assumes that c200 == c200v1
15:49:27lebelliumI bought a refurbished C200 last week. It's written c2 on the back cover but it runs a v1 firmware :)
15:49:38lebelliumso it's a v1 yes
15:52:11copper[Saint]: the cover art displays fine with the cabbie v2 theme
15:52:14lebelliumUSB works with cabbiev2 but with Onyx I get a Data abort everytime.
15:52:45lebelliumIf I already won't work with a normal theme like Onyx, it can only fail with my upcoming theme. Sad...
15:55:08lebelliumif it*
15:55:21[Saint]Use cabbiev2 as a basis for "normal theme".
15:55:39[Saint]No user theme can really be judged as "normal" without a code review.
15:56:36lebelliumI'll let you know when my SBS is ready. I cross my fingers to make my first theme compatible with USB connection :D
15:57:04[Saint]lebellium: out of interest, how much available buffer does the Fuze+ have?
15:57:13[Saint]System - Rockbox Info
15:57:24lebelliumI don't have the Fuze+, I used the R0 to make the theme
15:57:25[Saint]errr, copper, rather.
15:58:11[Saint]it /could/ be, that there's some strange effect caused by running out of buffer.
15:58:33[Saint]If that were the case though I would expect audio playback to be seriously hampered.
15:59:07copper[Saint]: 58.9 MB
15:59:26lebelliumI don't really understand this new debug menu "skin engine usage". How am I supposed to know if it reached the limit or not?
16:00:26[Saint]copper: right, I didn't think that would be the problem, but it was worth checking.
16:00:35lebelliumI see a "total usage" in bytes but I don't see how much is still available
16:00:44[Saint]The fact you said it also failed on the Classic made it quite highly unlikely.
16:03:00[Saint]lebellium: available buffer is listed at System - rockbox Info, iiuc.
16:03:25[Saint]That should always list the free buffer, and the skin engine can steal all remaining buffer if it wants to.
16:03:38[Saint]...which obviously would make audio irrelevant.
16:04:08 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
16:04:43lebelliumfor example on my C200 it says Buffer: 28,5MB and Total Usage: 197596 bytes
16:04:46[Saint]I think that the skin debug screen should /probably/ list the skin buffer usage as "used/remaining" though, and it's a trivial change.
16:05:09lebelliumdoes that mean my theme could be 10MB more?
16:05:27[Saint]Yes. But, it would mean you couldn't play audio.
16:05:42[Saint]As the audio buffer is "all remaining buffer".
16:05:43Tornelebellium: we've moved to dynamically allocating the skin buffer and many other things, these days
16:05:51[Saint]If you steal it all, audio will suffer badly.
16:05:54Torneso lots of thing scan now use as much memory as they like until you run out altogether
16:05:59Torneinstead of having individual static limits
16:06:53lebelliumok thx. That means there is no longer a static limit for my theme size
16:07:14[Saint]On a flash target, with a low-I/O codec, you could probably get away with a hilariously small audio buffer, but the constant buffering will eat the battery.
16:07:16Tornei'm not sure if every single thing is dynamic now
16:07:20Tornebut mostly, yes
16:07:30Torneobviously smaller is still better :)
16:07:41Tornesince every bit of available ram for audio buffering helps ;)
16:07:45 Quit DonAman (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
16:07:48[Saint]You want as much available buffer as possible to remain for audio.
16:08:10lebelliumon my clip zip with my theme loaded: Buffer is only 5,30MB: could that explain all USB connection fails?
16:08:14[Saint]Otherwise you'll be constantly hitting the disk, which is a "Bad Thing"(TM).
16:08:35Tornewe shouldn't need to allocate any memory for usb
16:08:41Tornewell, we do but it's static :)
16:08:55Tornememory allocation is still not fully dynamic, on purpose
16:09:41gevaertsWe do grab the audio buffer for usb, and it needs to be 64K at least
16:09:54Torneoh, hm, ok :)
16:10:04Tornebut yeah, 5.3mb is plenty for, well, anything really
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16:10:34lebelliumok... it's a pity, I thoughy I found out an easy reason for USB issues \o/
16:11:04[Saint]The important part is basically "skin buffer can use as much of the remaining buffer as it wants to, and the audio buffer is what gets left over".
16:11:31[Saint]Were that the reason for the USB failure, I would've hit that wall and found this bug years ago ;)
16:11:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:13:35[Saint]One of my themes for RaaA is using 50MB in fonts alone.
16:13:55[Saint]AA GNU Unifont is *massive*.
16:14:21gevaertsNo it's not
16:14:40[Saint]The bitmap version is ~7MB
16:14:49gevaertsOr do you seriously allocate 50MB for it? If so, change that! That's what the font cache is for!
16:15:17[Saint]AA versions get up to ~30MB for a ~50pt font
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16:15:27gevaertsThe *files*
16:16:24coppermy Fuze+ measures at 0.9Ω
16:16:40[Saint]I think the default is 200 glyphs, which still ends up pretty big, but nowhere near loading the entire font, correct.
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16:51:10[7][Saint], wodz (for the logs): emCORE's UCL unpacker is based on Rockbox's with some minor improvements
16:56:01[Saint][7]: right, I didn't think it was one and the same exactly.
16:56:08[Saint]but I wasn't totally sure.
16:56:26[Saint]iirc, you trimmed it down to a much smaller footprint did you not?
16:57:17 Quit y4n (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:57:47[7]no, rockbox's one is already very optimized for size
16:58:13[7]I mostly swapped around registers and changed the ARM/Thumb interwork a bit to make it more convenient for my purposes
16:58:32[7]possibly squeezed out a few more bytes, but rockbox's one is already only a few hundred bytes
16:58:59[7]but yeah, that noteboot hack was awesome :P
16:59:14*[Saint] nods
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16:59:27[Saint]I still find it the most convenient form in installation.
16:59:30 Join shamus [0] (
16:59:44[7]yeah... if only it would work on the classic as well
17:00:07[Saint]Did they patch the notes exploit out, or, <something_else>?
17:00:34[7]the notes exploit is only present in very ancient firmwares on first generation classics
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17:21:38[Saint]Huh, awesome.
17:22:04[Saint]the EQ_*_FAST_STEP define is awesome.
17:22:49[Saint]I wasn't aware that the min amount and the repeat value were different.
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17:25:48*[Saint] really wants someone to pull the trigger on g#401
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17:26:27[Saint]errrr, #g401?
17:26:29fs-bluebotGerrit review #401 at : EQ Presets by Hayden Pearce (changes/01/401/3)
17:27:10[Saint]and also #g393
17:27:13fs-bluebotGerrit review #393 at : Implement "reverse stereo" channel configuration to reverse left and right audio... by Bertrik Sikken (changes/93/393/2)
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17:29:14[Saint]Has anyone else noticed that Rockbox USB seems to be stalling after disconnect/unplug?
17:29:41[Saint](remains on the USB screen with a non-responsive UI, and constant disk access)
17:31:33[Saint]Oh, yay...the classic isn't mounting at all anymore.
17:33:04 Part crwl ("WeeChat 0.3.9")
17:33:57[Saint]The fallback image mounts, HEAD doesn't.
17:42:18[Saint]This seems to be an Ubuntu thing, not a Rockbox thing.
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17:57:24hashtagashcan anyone tell me how the c8k files for the Chip8 emulator work?
17:58:18hashtagashI've read the wiki and I don't get it
17:59:35 Quit pxb (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
17:59:51n1syou put them on the player then open them like you would a music file in the filebrowser
18:00:41hashtagashI did that but I want to remap the keys and I don't understand the .c8k files
18:02:02n1sah the kaymapping thing, the manual has a description
18:03:01hashtagashI read the manual but I don't get it
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18:03:48n1sIIUC the position of the character corresponds to the key being remapped to the value of the character
18:04:43n1sso the default mapping is 0123456789abcdef and the example remapping 0122458469ABCDEF
18:05:02hashtagashoh, I get it now! thanks
18:05:10n1sso the 3 key is remapped to 2, 6 to 8m 7 to 4, and 8 to 6
18:06:24*[Saint] is a bit late
18:06:32[Saint]But, yes, yes...what he said.
18:07:16[Saint]the easiest example is: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA maps every key to A, etc.
18:07:43[Saint](which would be highly silly, but, it's just an example)
18:09:40[Saint]the manual makes it look weird, as the table looks like there's two rows of values - "Chip8" and "Key" (which looks blank).
18:09:47[Saint]But, it's just odd formatting.
18:09:59hashtagashhmm, I think I might know why I was so confused: the up key on my iPod nano 1g is quitting the emulator
18:10:14hashtagashinstead of being the third key in the c8k file
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18:10:52[Saint]That's odd behaviour, yes, but it doesn't entirely surprise me.
18:11:17[Saint]The iPods especially have very non-sane (and sometimes totally arbitrary seeming) maps to exit plugins.
18:11:45hashtagashthey should all be the same imho
18:11:46[Saint]IMO, it should be Menu+Select to exit every plugin where |<< isn't in use.
18:11:59[Saint]errr, *is* in use, rather.
18:12:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:12:00hashtagashmenu+select works on most
18:12:10[Saint]But, that's one of those "round-to-it" things.
18:12:26hashtagashshame, I wanted to play blinky!
18:12:43[Saint]And, being perfectly honest, not a lot of developers care much about the plugins other than "builds, has bitmaps, and has a keymap"
18:12:55[Saint]"has a sane keymap" is often overlooked completely.
18:13:14hashtagashif I knew anything about C I would fix it
18:14:00[Saint]It's a matter of converting everything over to pluginlib, which is actually fairly trivial, but boring.
18:14:39hashtagashso nobody wants to do it :[
18:15:06hashtagashso pluginlib uses menu+sel for everything?
18:15:26[Saint]pluginlib provides a global set of actions for plugins so every plugin doesn't need to re-invent the wheel. But, conversion is a slow process because a lot of these plugins don't get used by developers I think.
18:16:09[Saint]Fairly recently someone made a pretty big stab at the plugins. But, it's not complete apparently.
18:16:37pixelmait was agreed on to not port every plugin to that, only ones that need a certain set of actions
18:16:49[Saint]Aha, my mistake.
18:17:02[Saint]I was under the impression that every plugin that could, should.
18:17:05pixelmaconsistency across plugins for one device is another matter, not just actions
18:17:29pixelmawell every plugin that could isn't every plugin
18:17:46hashtagashI might put it on flyspray as low priority, as it does make chip8 pretty much unusable
18:18:02[Saint]Yeah, go for it. It is certainly a bug.
18:18:26hashtagashI need a jabber id to register on flyspray?
18:19:09hashtagashoh, its optional.
18:19:12[Saint]Only the fields with the red boxes are required.
18:19:21[Saint]real name, username, and email address iirc.
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18:22:51hashtagasherr, I can't change the priority of the task
18:23:08[Saint]No, only a developer can do so.
18:23:22[Saint]This prevents people from adding everything as high priority :)
18:23:31hashtagashok, to stop people putting things at high priority because it affects THEM :P
18:23:42[Saint]Yeppers. :)
18:37:44kugel[Saint]: do we need bass/treble booster/reducer presets? we have distinct settings for that
18:38:58hashtagashnot really imho
18:40:22[Saint]Technically, no, but the EQ has a MUCH broader range of adjustment and finer control.
18:40:44 Quit pretty_function (Remote host closed the connection)
18:40:55[Saint]bass/treble is +/-6dB, EQ is +/-24 iirc.
18:41:08[Saint](and the EQ has .5db steps)
18:41:20copperI modified the Acuity theme
18:41:27copperto fit my tastes
18:41:41copperit's all pretty now
18:41:55 Quit krabador (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:42:14[Saint]I also have no idea (and neither does the user, really) what frequencies "bass" and "treble" actually adjusts.
18:42:16hashtagashlol, I don't have acuity
18:42:57hashtagashdarn it, my theme went all messed up D:
18:43:13[Saint]The presets definitely sound a lot nicer (to me, at least) than simply raising/lowering bass/treble values.
18:43:29kugelI disagree
18:44:00kugeland IMO we shouldn't clutter the preset listing with such presets if they are easily available through other means
18:44:29[Saint]But, as I said, the level of control is completely different.
18:44:35kugelif you can split the patch we can discuss these separately and merge the other improved presets
18:44:48[Saint]bass/treble is "the poor mans EQ" for people that seem daunted by a full GEQ IMO.
18:45:46[Saint]kugel: you know we *already* have bass/treble presets in HEAD, yeah?
18:45:52[Saint]...they got in fine.
18:45:57[Saint]these are just a lot nicer.
18:46:07[Saint]a LOT nicer.
18:46:24kugelIMO we don't need even more of them
18:46:37[Saint]That's why I depricated the old ones.
18:47:16[Saint]There's not more, or less of them. There's the same amoutn (wrt: bass/treble), just...better.
18:48:13[Saint]Actually, if that patch was committed, there would be less of them.
18:48:18[Saint]My mistake.
18:48:29kugelI must be looking wrong then
18:48:52kugelI see -1/+2 for bass and +2 for treble
18:48:57[Saint]There's currently Bass, Treble, Full Bass, Full Treble, and Full Bass and Treble
18:49:10[Saint]The newer patch doesn't have the "full bass and treble" one.
18:49:18kugeloh yea, I see that now
18:49:36kugelwhy did you rename?
18:50:34 Quit mt (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
18:51:00[Saint]I just used the names from the presets they were adapted from. I thought the naming was a little clearer.
18:51:23[Saint]This set was adapted from Apple's presets, the ones in HEAD came from VLC.
18:52:02[Saint]I just used the names I thought users would already be used to. But where the names matched exactly to what was in the source already, I kept the naming.
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18:53:30[Saint]I think the naming in that patch makes it clearer what each preset actually does, but, the naming isn't anything I'm prepared to fight over :)
18:55:06[Saint]I think, even with the added presets, due to the format change, there's actually a slight binsize decrease as well.
18:55:12[Saint]...but nothing to write home about.
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18:59:50*pixelma still wonders whether she's the only
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19:00:44pixelmaonly one where the Rockbox line in the notification bar is black on white on ICS RaaA
19:02:05pixelmaunlike the other apps' notifications
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19:31:08pixelmaI also have another problem with RaaA on my phone(s) - if music is playing and I want to switch to Rockbox I'm greeted with a black screen and the only way out is stopping the app through the app manager. Only recently I discovered that the screen is not completely black but shows a very few pixel rows of the status bar
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19:56:41threethirtyhello all I couldn't find a solution to my particular problem. I accadentally turned off the backlight on my sansa fuse when digging through the menus. Is there an easy way to reset that?
19:57:34[Saint]Mount the device and edit the config.cfg manually.
19:58:00[Saint]Or, you can hose the config by booting with hold enabled.
19:58:16[Saint]boot; immediately enable hold.
19:58:42[Saint]The manual editing method is a lot better, though.
19:58:52pixelma[Saint]: are you sure that this is the reset combo on the Fuze?
19:58:56[Saint]...unless you're not worried about losing all your settings.
19:59:28[Saint]pixelma: I was under the understanding that was the reset combo for anything with a physical hold button?
20:00:08pixelmano idea actually
20:00:53[Saint]Anyway, I wouldn't recommend that method. Just edit the config.cfg and remove the backlight line.
20:01:16threethirtybooya! editing th econfig totally worked, thanks a million!
20:01:24[Saint]Not a problem.
20:01:40[Saint]Perhaps I should file that as a bug.
20:01:57[Saint]You /probably/ shouldn;t be able to turn the LCD off completely ;)
20:02:15[Saint](or, render it useless, as the case may be)
20:03:00gevaerts[Saint]: is there *one* setting that makes the LCD totally invisible?
20:03:24gevaertsAs far as I can see, it's just some combinations of settings that are annoying
20:03:43gevaertsAlso, do you really want to force blind people to waste battery?
20:03:56[Saint]I'd check, but, my Fuze has no power currently.
20:04:06[Saint]...apparently the battery is dead. Like, dead dead.
20:05:07[Saint]I was just thinking along the lines of dis-allowing a zero (or equal to) value for contrast/brightness.
20:05:54[Saint]Wastage would be minimal with the lowest possible visible setting.
20:07:17gevaertsYou'd still be annoying some people to add a safeguard against something that's easy to fix
20:07:23pixelmait also depends on the type of display but that could be taken care of
20:08:29[Saint]gevaerts: true, it is easy to fix (as long as you have ready access to a host device or the manual - for the reset combo), but, it'd be better if it just didn't happen.
20:09:09[Saint]In most cases, I'd find it unlikely that a person would want to turn off the backlight completely on a display that renders said display entirely useless after doing so.
20:09:17[Saint]with the exception of the blind.
20:10:09gevaertsSo what exactly are you proposing?
20:10:39gevaertsRemember there's Backlight, Backlight on Hold, and Backlight (While Plugged In)
20:12:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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20:30:24kugelpixelma: I know about the blank screen problem, but I don't know hte cause and i don't know how to reproduce
20:32:49[Saint]Hum...on FuzeV1 - the backlight setting for "off" seems to be completely ignored.
20:33:26*[Saint] also wonders about the inconsistency of some settings.
20:34:11[Saint]For example: some settings do nothing until they're applied, and others will apply temporarily to display their action if applied.
20:36:04[Saint]threethirty: what model Fuze is this?
20:37:23[Saint]I only have my FuzeV1 to play with presently, but, as far as I can see the "off" backlight setting is completely ignored.
20:37:40[Saint]But it functions just fine for backlight on hold and backlight while plugged.
20:38:57*[Saint] can't tell if the "bug" (read bug as - non-obvious behaviour) lies with the V1 or the +
20:40:35threethirtyI am not sure that it is a bug. the problem was totally pebcak I just wasnt paying enough attention
20:41:38[Saint]I don't think it's particularly obvious that some displays will be rendered completely useless with the backlight off.
20:42:10[Saint]If you're aware of the screen type, and know about hardware to some extent, it is. But, for most people I'd bet it comes as a surprise.
20:42:41threethirtyfair enough, I just didn't want to create work for someone just because i was dumb :)
20:43:35 Join ml| [0] (~ml@unaffiliated/ml/x-3958674)
20:43:42[Saint]I don't think you're dumb. It's not immediately obvious. A large amount of displays will stay usable with the backlight off.
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21:41:08copper[Saint]: my backdrop:
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21:46:30pixelmakugel: ok, at least that one is know. I'll try to keep an eye on it, unfortunately I haven't found a pattern of when it'll occur and when it won't myself
21:46:37pixelmaknown too
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22:03:10copperthe music note icon is probably copyrighted though (probably by Apple)
22:03:48[Saint]There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (as far as I could care), so long as it never hits the theme site.
22:04:01[Saint]re-create it by hand, and, it's a different story.
22:04:22[Saint](that's how I managed to get my Apple OF clones up there - though, that's a slightly contentious issue)
22:04:39[Saint]And, I should /probably/ take them down.
22:04:59copperthere's a noticeable hiss with the Fuze+ with my IEMs, when not playing music
22:06:44copperit measures pretty well though
22:08:22copperthe fact that the screen is in portrait mode is very useful
22:09:00copperit shows like 20 lines at once
22:09:10copperwith Helvetica 15pt
22:09:47copperand I like that Rockbox mapped the bottom left and right corners to page up / page down
22:10:37[Saint]iiuc, the entire pad should be mapped out as the grid-mode touch-pad.
22:10:53[Saint]a 3x3 grid of assorted functions that differs per-screen.
22:11:33[Saint]I _think_ it's supposed to be that way, or was, or will be...possibly.
22:12:02copperwell there's top bottom left right, and top left / top right / bottom left / bottom right
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22:12:07copper3x3 indeed
22:13:24[Saint]Yeah, you may or may not be aware, but that is a mode that touchscreen devices can all use.
22:13:32[Saint](but they default to absolute point)
22:13:48[Saint]The pad is basically treated as a touchscreen.
22:14:07copperwithout gestures, there isn't much of a point to it though
22:14:23[Saint]Ehhhhhh...yes and no.
22:14:44[Saint]It is activated by default on touchscreen devices when no touchscreen tags are present in the theme.
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22:15:24[Saint]On this particular touchpad, it's a little bit surplus to requirement, though, as you've got a set of physical nav buttons as well.
22:18:39[Saint]Very simple gestures (think of the Android pattern-based lock screen) would be very trivial to implement.
22:18:52[Saint]*actual* gesture recognition, notsomuch.
22:20:25[Saint]If you had it detecting something along the lines of: start at <foo> in 3x3 grid and traverse throush at least two other grid spaces without the digit leaving the screen - it would be pretty trivial.
22:21:01[Saint]If you wanted it to try and match gestures that can start and end at arbitrary points, things get a lot more complex.
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22:22:13copperno I was only thinking about up-down left-right swiping gestures, along the printed cross
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22:22:36[Saint]but, you could easily do things like: start at 0,0; move to 1x1, then move to 2x2 (a left-to-right and top-to-bottom diagonal across the entire pad) etc.
22:23:40[Saint]or, 0x0; 0x1; 0x2...etc.
22:24:40copperall in all I find the Fuze+ much more likable (IMHO) than the Clip+
22:24:49copperthe Clip+ is just too damn small
22:24:52copperand, not artwork
22:25:05[Saint]It pretty much just needs a known start, a known end, and to traverse through N known points in between doing so.
22:25:25copperand at €40 for 16 GB, it's a steal
22:25:28[Saint](without the digit leaving the pad until the end point)
22:26:05[Saint]With a 3x3 grid, though would be trivial, but the idea is that touchscreens should be able to share these gestures - so, it's not really an option.
22:26:33[Saint]actual gesture recognition is *hard* stuff.
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22:27:39[Saint]My favorite Rockboxed device is quite probably a one-of-a-kind.
22:28:44copperwhich is?
22:29:03[Saint]An iPod Color/Photo, with a 64GB compact flash card, a microUSB port for charging and accessing the compact flash, and bluetooth audio.
22:29:39lebelliumbluetooth audio with rockbox?!
22:29:53[Saint]Not native, but, yes.
22:30:11[Saint]It's just a bluetooth dongle spliced into the headphone jack.
22:30:14copperoh you mean it doesn't actually exist :)
22:30:20copperoh, it does?
22:30:22[Saint]No, it exists.
22:30:41[Saint]She's ma baby.
22:30:50copperfor bluetooth audio I'd use LossyFLAC, but you'd need quite a bit more space
22:31:53[Saint]lebellium: yeah, people always do that: "Wow, BlueTooth audio in Rockbox...wooo!", until they're told it's a hardware hack, not a software one. :)
22:32:26[Saint]If <insert_DAP_here> has enough room in the case, it's a *really* easy modification to make.
22:32:27copperbluetooth should be a system-wide thing, like, on smartphones
22:32:40copperno reason every player should have to implement it
22:32:47lebelliumThe YP-R1 Lorenzo is currently working on has a bluetooth chip, I would love to see a bluetooth menu in RB :D
22:33:25[Saint]The other thing people are amazed by is the microUSB port, but, it's pretty simple when you look at how I did it.
22:33:45copper[Saint]: you hacked something into the 30 pin dock?
22:34:23[Saint]It's simply a ZIF->CF adapter, that happened to have a microUSB port - which I desoldered from the board and mounted to the case backing. Then I spliced in the power between it and the dock connector.
22:34:30lebelliumdo you have some pics?
22:35:22[Saint]Not at present. I've been meaning to showcase the geeky awesomeness of it on G+ for a while
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22:36:30[Saint]I'm not sure why, but, I can't access the CF via the microUSB if the device is powered on.
22:36:44[Saint]There's likely a very good explanation for this, but...meh.
22:37:08copperwhat's this weirdness: the Volume settings menu displays values with 5 dB gaps, but in the WPS I can adjust volume by 1dB?
22:37:26[Saint]I suspect it has something to do with Rockbox and the host trying to access the storage at the same time.
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22:37:34copperand there's no 0dB value in the menu, just -4 and +1
22:39:33[Saint]It really is a miracle that the port is as usable as it is.
22:39:52[Saint]pamaury is a ledgend for the work he has done here, in the time he has done it.
22:40:06copperwas it harder than with other ports for some reason?
22:40:32[Saint]Not particularly, no, it's the time span that makes it so dramatic.
22:40:59copperI'm always in awe that you guys manage to reverse engineer those things like that
22:41:18[Saint]It's a gift.
22:41:25[Saint]A gift I certainly don't have ;)
22:41:36[Saint]And, I too, am in awe of those who do.
22:42:34copperso many companies both shitty firmwares on the cheap, why don't they just license Rockbox, with maybe a custom theme?
22:43:25copperactually I'm thinking of those chinese "audiophile" manufacturers
22:44:12[Saint]Audiophiles are manufactured in China!?!
22:44:15[Saint]I knew it! :P
22:44:51copperI don't know where THOSE come from
22:45:05copperbut they replicate at an alarming rate
22:45:36*[Saint] wishes to add that one of the particularly great things about pamaury's efforts is how humble he is about it
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