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#rockbox log for 2013-03-27

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00:08:22RiDwhen setting eq enabled on or off using setting_set, it does not make effect until you go to Settings > Sound Settings -> Equalizer -> Enable EQ > then go back
00:09:19RiDis there anything to make rockbox "reload" that value?
00:09:37RiDother than going to Equalizer settings
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00:53:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:47:39Caribou00uhh having a bit of trouble with themes. i installed rockbox + 7 themes with the utility. when i load a theme, the backdrop changes but the now playing screen is always a plain black screen with plain everything.. it's just stuck that way it won't even load the default rockbar theme
02:48:04Caribou00i checked to make sure all the files are present.. they are all definitely there and intact
02:48:57Caribou00tried holding down power for 30 sec... and tried rebooting after changing theme... no joy
02:50:45[Saint]Are you safely ejecting the volume?
02:51:04[Saint]That rather sounds like a case of filesystem corruption.
02:52:49Caribou00okay then, it's possible since i've been trying to transfer files to rockbox with Clementine for Mac, and it the device gets ejected abruptly and then has fatal error something about parsing. the screen flashes every second and i have to power it down
02:53:00Caribou00so that happened once or twice
02:53:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:53:21Caribou00i'll go ahead and reinstall everything.... should i do the bootloader too?
02:53:54[Saint]There's no need to replace the bootloader.
02:55:25[Saint]It is really important to safely eject volumes, or at the very least attempt to ensure that all data is written out to it. etc
02:57:13Caribou00why can;t this thing understand brackets mean brackets not delete everything
02:58:59Caribou00trying to say that others had this problem with clementine too, rockboxed ipods won't work. it doesnt support MSC, or it thinks theyre running OF or something. it still accurately read the device info tho - by that i mean the name... device or whatever you call them and the author rockbox
03:10:44Caribou00it werked ヽ(*≧ω≦)ノ♡
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09:26:32lebellium[Saint]: do you know why %?tr<%xd(Va)|%xd(Vb)|%xd(Vc)|%xd(Vd)|%xd(Ve)|%xd(Vf)> is not divided equally?
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09:30:13lebelliumbut it should, right? I mean, should I open a bug ticket?
09:30:39[Saint]Yeah, go for it.
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09:33:58[Saint]You're very enthusiastic.
09:43:28lebelliumJdGordon: FS #12848 :)
09:43:29fs-bluebot Signal strength tag %tr doesn't divide equally when using conditionnals (bugs, unconfirmed)
09:45:54[Saint]lebellium: it would make life a whole lot easier if you posted the full theme in that report.
09:46:19lebelliumwhy? That concerns any of my theme or anyone using this tag?
09:47:56[Saint]It saves myself, or others, have to create a test case specifically to see it in action.
09:48:19[Saint]It also allows us to see if you may or may not being doing "something stupid(TM)".
09:48:23lebelliumI can add a link to my theme on the theme website
09:48:34[Saint]Go for it.
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10:34:57lebelliumactually it is pretty much the same for the battery indicator. %?bl<|%xd(Be)|%xd(Bf)|%xd(Bg)|%xd(Bh)|%xd(Bi)> with Be = 0 bar and Bi = 4 bars gives
10:34:59lebellium4 bars 100%
10:35:01lebellium3 bars 75-99%
10:35:03lebellium2 bars 50-74%
10:35:05lebellium1 bars 25-49%
10:35:06lebellium0 bars 0-24%
10:35:07lebelliumbut here is is maybe intended and makes more sense that it is not equally divided
10:35:32[Saint]you can't do the battery indicator that way.
10:36:12lebelliumAre you sure? I thought I copied code of cabbiev2
10:36:19[Saint]the 'state unknown' case messes up splitting it properly.
10:36:37[Saint]If you really want nice steps, use a bar.
10:36:41 Quit mortalis (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium
10:37:01gevaerts[Saint]: CustomWPS seems to use it exactly that way
10:37:04lebellium"state unknown" is %xd(Be) in my code, I just removed it here
10:37:46[Saint]gevaerts: I worded it weirdly. You *can* do it that way, but it (at least used to) make the steps uneven.
10:38:17lebelliumbut not because of unknown case
10:38:59lebelliumI wrote "%?bl<| blablabla", I could have wrote "%?bl<%xd(Be)|blablabla"
10:39:43[Saint]I think what you're missing is that there is a case specifically for the 100% mark.
10:40:12lebelliumthat's not clear in CustomWPS then
10:40:14lebellium"%?bl(-1|0|1|2|...|N) "
10:40:48[Saint]Un unclear wiki/documentation in a FOSS project!?!
10:40:53*[Saint] is shocked.
10:41:08lebelliumthat's not Foss project, that's what any dev is using as reference doc except you :)
10:41:15lebelliumtheme designer*
10:42:10[Saint]It probably states the same thing, but you _should_ be using the manual.
10:42:33[Saint]The wiki is *not* to be considered an official source of documentation.
10:42:50[Saint]There is absolutely no obligation for anyone to maintain those pages.
10:43:01lebelliumand there is an obligation for the user manual?
10:43:09Zagorwell, it's the only source of documentation so it's not really useful to say otherwise
10:43:19[Saint] often doesn't happen, but, yes.
10:43:19lebelliumas you said, it's probably written exactly the same thing for %?bl(-1|0|1|2|...|N) .
10:43:21Zagor(for some things)
10:43:55[Saint]Zagor: yes, that mess really annoys me.
10:44:28[Saint]there's acutally parts of the skin code that aren't documented in either the manual or the wiki
10:44:44lebelliumso the trick would be adding twice the 4th bar: once for 75-99% and once for 100%
10:44:51[Saint]Its on my todo...but, I haven't had the time.
10:45:20[Saint]lebellium: I assume so. The battery behaves in exactly the same way.
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10:49:28wodzpamaury: Does vision28 have any hw buttons?
10:49:43pamaurywodz: power and hold
10:49:59pamauryon the same slider
10:51:42pamaurywodz: is there a list of the common usb ids for the rockchips on the wiki ?
10:51:52wodzpamaury: The firmware was compiled with different compiler version (or with different flags) so FLIRT sigs don't catch much of interesting lowlevel functions. But the functions I found by hand seems to match SDK I have
10:52:20wodzpamaury: don't think so
10:52:50pamaurygood to know
10:53:09pamaurymaybe we could write this information somwhere, that could help people identify the chip from the usb id
10:53:24***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:54:31 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
10:54:33wodzpamaury: In which way? The only helpful ids are for 'dfu' modes. All other are overwritten by DAP vendors
10:55:23wodzI bet vision28 don't have the same vid:pid then my unbranded rk27xx
10:55:24pamauryall the archos present themselves as domain technologies...
10:55:56pamaurybtw the way, I got my hands on a few cheap archos devices, some of them I already received: 14 vision which seems rknano based (usb is 071b:3203), same thing for the 15b vision
10:58:56wodzpamaury: my unbranded rk27xx also presents itself as 071b:3203
10:59:10wodzso this is not reliable
10:59:11pamauryah maybe they are rk27xx then
10:59:20pamauryI don't remember what is the is of rknanob
10:59:33wodzthe only proof is to open the dap
10:59:58pamauryah, 0x071b, 0x3226
11:00:15pamauryI'll post pictures of the 14 and 15b vision tonight
11:00:44pamaurysad news is they don't have a sd slot
11:01:34wodzI really really need to find time and finish rk27xx ftl RE
11:01:51pamauryis it based on something well-known or not ?
11:01:57wodznot at all
11:02:59pamaurydo you have some symbols from the sdk at least ?
11:03:12wodzyes and headers
11:03:59wodzI am pretty far but real life is providing interrupt storm all the time
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11:05:16wodzah and there are sources for rk28 ftl in linux kernel released by archos
11:05:28wodzthis is different version though
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11:19:13trollin420hey what manual would i read for the ipod classic 7g for rockbox?
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11:22:12wodzpamaury: archos 3 vision also reports itself as 071b:3203
11:22:33pamaurydo you own the device ?
11:24:04wodzno, just googled for 071b:3203
11:24:47wodzpentagram eon cineo is most probably rebranded ramos rm970 (071b:3203 also)
11:25:03trollin420can someone lemme know would the ipod video be the right manual to read for the classic 7g?
11:26:43wodztrollin420: this will be the closest match, yes
11:27:52[Saint]trollin420: I let you know this very thing yesterday, and the day prior.
11:27:59trollin420yea i know
11:28:07trollin420but i forgot exactly which manual
11:28:19trollin420wanted to be sure before i downloaded the pdf
11:31:05wodzout of curiosity, whats missing to put classic manual?
11:32:17[Saint]I'm not sure to be honest.
11:32:30[Saint]Mr. Someone really needs to pick that port back up.
11:33:16wodzI would prefer the7
11:35:00*[Saint] assumes that if he had time for it, he's do so.
11:35:17[Saint]He's studying and busing paying bills like many of the rest of us.
11:35:59*[Saint] considers this all essentially a moot point, though.
11:36:19[Saint]As long as there's no official bootloader, this is all largely irrelevant.
11:36:59[Saint]There's really no point in a manual for a port with no official installation method.
11:37:52Tornei think that's kinda a terrible argument
11:38:02Tornelots of people *are* using it, and want to use it
11:38:15Torneand not providing a manual is doing them a disservice for fairly arbitrary reasons
11:38:22Torneyes, the install process is weird and not what we expect
11:38:34[Saint]Yes, certainly. I didn't say I agreed - but, that's how it is.
11:38:35Tornebut once you install it, it works as described in the manual :)
11:38:47gevaertsI still think we should redefine the classic port to "rockbox for emcore/classic"
11:38:57[Saint]We either decide emCORE is official, make an actual bootloader, nothing.
11:39:02gevaertsThere will be a proven installation method then :)
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11:39:49Torne[Saint]: i don't think that's the right set of choices :)
11:40:03Tornewe could also just start building the manual and linking to the port anyway
11:40:28*gevaerts nods
11:40:28[Saint]technically speaking - we shouldn;t offer any support for it.
11:40:32Tornewhy not?
11:40:43Tornewe offer all support on a best-effort basis anyway
11:40:43[Saint]There's no way to actually install it.
11:40:45gevaertsWe offer support to people *porting*
11:40:47Torneit's not like it actually matters
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11:41:39[Saint]RbUtil only installs it IFF you've already used a bootloader that by and large we make no mention of.
11:41:46[Saint]its like a secret club, really.
11:42:07Torneour current port categories conflate two things: whether the port actually works or not, and whether our docs/build system/tools cover it or not
11:42:32Tornethe ipod classic port isn't exactly done, but it clearly works and lots of people use it, and it's in a better state than nano2g where usb is just broken :)
11:43:07[Saint]the nano2g is in a better state, really - USB needs disabling.
11:43:10Torneif we want to make installing sensible, we should have rbutil detect the ipodclassic and send you to the emcore install page
11:43:16[Saint]there's no reason fot there not to be an n2g release.
11:43:17Torneif nothing else
11:43:29Tornejust so people don't ask why they cant' install it ;)
11:43:38Tornethe manual should get built, etc
11:43:45Tornenot doing these things isn't helping anyone
11:43:54Tornethe people who want to run rockbox on their classics are going to anyway
11:44:01Tornethey're just going to have to come hassle us somewhere first, in some cases
11:44:07[Saint]n2g is fine, save for the fact that USB panics - disabling USb is trivial, and we have dual-boot.
11:44:11Tornebecause they didn't read the right one of our numerous cryptic wiki pages
11:44:17[Saint]there really should be a release for it.
11:44:34gevaerts[Saint]: then someone should do the work
11:44:35Tornestop picking apart my arbitrary example
11:44:38Torneit really doesn't matter
11:44:52gevaertsRight now, the n2g is *not* release-worthy
11:45:04Tornemy point is that we should be able to say "this port is known to not be perfect and may have issues, and you have to install it in a weird manual way"
11:45:11gevaertsIt doesn't matter how big the required changes are
11:45:16Tornewithout relegating it to a state where people *can't find how to do anything with it*
11:45:23Tornebecause the manual is missing and th install instructions are buried
11:46:23[Saint]According to [7], making emCORE into nothing but a bare metal stub that does nothing but boots Rockbox would be trivial - but the only one that really knows that code inside out is him.
11:46:45Tornei don't care how much work it would be to *actually fix the port*
11:46:50Tornethat's irrelevant
11:47:00Torneit hasn't been done, for quite a while
11:47:07Torneso there's no particular reason to assume it will be done soon either :)
11:47:16Torneand even if it were, other future ports may end up in this exact same sate
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12:43:16JdGordonlebellium: ping
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12:45:00trollin420hey i created a shortcut by mistake and i cant seem to delete it? I highlighted the entry and press menu?
12:45:11JdGordonlebellium: try g#426
12:45:13fs-bluebotGerrit review #426 at : simplelist: Fix simplelist_set_line_count() so it actually sets the count by Jonathan Gordon (changes/26/426/1)
12:49:59JdGordon[Saint]: <- didnt that cause a pretty ehated "discussion" about 18 months ago?
12:51:02[Saint]JdGordon: menu order in general did, yes.
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12:51:25[Saint]but, I don't recall sanity checking for main menu context items being discussed.
12:53:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:57:31trollin420hi saint think i figued this out on my own but wanted to ask you about shortcut removal. can i just open the shortcuts.txt file and delete the entry from there, i shouldnt delete the whole text file right?
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13:00:50JdGordontrollin420: the context menu should ask you to delte it
13:01:11JdGordonwhatever action ususally gets you that
13:01:19JdGordonso most likely long select
13:02:00trollin420i highlighted the entry from shortcuts and did a long select as well no context menu from there for it to ask me to delete the shortcut
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13:06:20trollin420just gonna try deleting the line from the txt file
13:09:37trollin420yep that worked. although a reboot of the player was required.... im sure everyone knows this but to manually remove an entry from the shortcuts menu go to the .rockbox folder and open shortcuts.txt in notedpad and simply delete the line that correspondes with the shortcut you want to remove
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16:45:37lebelliumsorry JdGordon, it doesn't fix the issue
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16:55:15ej0rge"Undefined instruction" crash on clipzip when plugging in usb is a known issue, yes?
16:58:04lebelliumej0rge: may be related to FS #12639
16:58:05fs-bluebot Certain themes cause the WPS to not load properly and USB to not work (bugs, unconfirmed)
17:00:00ej0rgelebellium: yeah that seems likely. I'll try cabbiev2 and see what happens
17:00:31ej0rgelebellium: fwiw i was using your samsung-like theme
17:00:52ej0rgeyeah, that seems to have resolved it
17:02:24lebelliumI personaly use mainly my theme and revert back to cabbieV2 when I need to transfer files. Not really practical but well...
17:05:13ej0rge*shrug* I have a 4gb clipzip with a 32mb card in it. First time i tried to use it as a usb device in a very long time yesterday, since it's so easy to just eject the card and plug it into a laptop.
17:09:15lebellium32GB you mean :)
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19:08:02pamaurywodz: i've disassemble the archos vision 14, it's a rknano-b
19:08:13pamaurysorry 15b
19:27:48pamauryoh and 14 vision is also rknano-b
19:27:57pamauryi'll upload the pics soon
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19:35:00GodEater`48 hours till the deadline for GSOC mentoring orgs to apply
19:35:14GodEater`I still haven't seen any massive appetite for it this year
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20:13:36AlexPAin't gonna happen
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20:34:57bluebrother[Saint]: it's actually not that easy.
20:35:28bluebrotherthe problem is that the installation implementation in Rockbox Utility doesn't know about the selected player, it just knows about the files it's supposed to work on (and where to get them)
20:36:16bluebrotherpersonally I'm not too fond of the link to the Sandisk forums at all. We don't have control over that URLs and they can change at any time.
20:36:32bluebrotherI'd prefer to only link to our wiki, and we could have deep links over there.
20:37:05bluebrotherfurthermore, Rockbox Utility doesn't know about the supported firmware versions. mkamsboot knows that, and it will check (and show the list in the error message) the firmware
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21:59:39[Saint]bluebrother: yeah - sorry, I am aware that RbUtil itself isn't all that smart, and the various player-specific tools do the version checking for FW files, but I was trying not to overwhelm the person I was talking to with irrelevant (to them) complications.
22:01:20[Saint]The annoying thing is SanDisck's URL structure - its not even possible to dump them in the "root" of the updates page, as there doesn't seem to be any such thing. The URL is specially crafted, and this involves us playing catch-ups if we always want to point to the "right" one. :-S
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22:07:15wodzpamaury: how much ram does rknano-b have? From your wiki entry it sounds like 1MB. If so is it even worth the effort?
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22:14:46wodzpamaury: BTW. seems to support your finding about cortex-M3 in rknano-b
22:16:26[Saint]Nothing quite says "Awesome DAP" like a cupped hand holding a tiny house...
22:16:45bluebrother[Saint]: no problem :)
22:17:08bluebrotherthough as said, personally I'd prefer not to link to the Sandisk website and instead use a wiki page on our end.
22:17:25bluebrothersince that is much easier to change
22:17:40bluebrotherwe could even implement some kind of forwarding mechanism ...
22:18:18[Saint]The user in question was right about the instructions being very vague about what happens here.
22:18:49[Saint]The impression given is either: any firmware will work; or; only this *specific* version will work.
22:19:00bluebrotherwe don't need to confuse users by adding too much information :)
22:19:12[Saint]too little is also problematic.
22:20:21bluebrotherit might be a good idea to be a bit more verbose about automatic installation in the manual
22:20:56bluebrotherone problem is that we can't say that a specific version works because several versions do.
22:21:14[Saint]The thing I see as problematic is that we don't actually give the user any input on what FW version(s) are supported.
22:21:16bluebrotherotoh we can't say that any version works because we don't know if Sandisk released a new one in the meantime
22:21:43[Saint]if we could print the versions that *do* work, even if we can't link to them - that may be better.
22:21:45bluebrotherwe do. When the user provides a firmware version that is unknown he'll get a message saying which versions to try
22:22:03[Saint]yeah - the problem is, this user didn't want to risk that.
22:22:13[Saint]remember, these people think players are made of magic.
22:22:22bluebrotherso he obviously didn't trust us enough :D
22:22:25[Saint]he thought that may brick the device.
22:22:40*bluebrother trusts himself pretty much. Usually :D
22:22:41[Saint]since it didn't state "yes, this is OK to do"
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22:25:43[Saint]I don't think its a trust thing, I think it more a case of "some people need *very* specific steps and hand-holding".
22:26:23[Saint]Unless it actually stated "yep - this is OK", there was no way this user was going to procede.
22:26:33[Saint]We actually need more users like this one ;)
22:27:17[Saint]s/he waited a few days trying to gethold of someone to tell him/her exactly what to do, and reassure him/her that the device wouldn't catch fire.
22:27:50bluebrotherI'm not sure if we really need more such users
22:28:17bluebrotherI haven't heard of such an issue in all the years I'm working on Rockbox Utility. So I don't see much of a problem here.
22:28:35bluebrotheryes, some users need more hand holding. But we have out support channels for this :)
22:29:34[Saint]I went through the install myself (I don't actually have the device, so I had to tell lies to rbutil), and I got the impression myself that only one specific fw version is accepted.
22:29:54[Saint]the user seemed to think it problematic that it wasn't the current one, and wouldn't procede.
22:30:52bluebrotherI don't think the text in that dialog box implies only one version to work.
22:31:02[Saint]but, you're right - they can always come find us here. The non-obvious thing to the user was that the device won't actually let them do "the wrong thing" I suppose.
22:31:07bluebrotherbut if you have better wording I'm all for it
22:32:02bluebrotherin general I prefer users that aren't confident enough to not install Rockbox. Changing the firmware of a device is a rather major change so you should be aware of what you're doing
22:32:28bluebrotheryou don't install Linux on your Windows PC if you're not aware what you're doing either :)
22:32:40[Saint]which is why I said earlier we need more users like this guy/girl...but you disagreed ;)
22:33:06[Saint]s/he found something they didn;t understand/questioned, and stopped dead in their tracks.
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22:33:12[Saint]*that*s what we need more of.
22:33:12bluebrotherwe need more users that require more support? I don't see a benefit from that :)
22:33:23bluebrotheraaah, now I get your point :)
22:33:30bluebrotherok, with that one I do agree
22:33:36[Saint]more support for trivial things may directly lead to less support for serious things.
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22:46:40soaphow many developers have shown up because they were attracted to the project VS attracted to the product?
22:47:40[Saint]Ohhhh - that's an interesting one.
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22:58:03[Saint]soap: I would think a reasonably large volume of new developers discover us because they feel thay have nice hardware that "could be more".
22:58:13[Saint]...and then find out that there are no alternatives.
22:58:43[Saint]Without some form of survey (perhaps shoot something by way of the mailing list), you'll probably never know though.
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23:08:28pamaurywodz: I don't know the amount of ram, probably 512kB or 1MB I would say, not much
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23:38:51[7]Torne: USB is just broken on the classic as well, at least for some users
23:39:23[7]not quite sure what the reason is - if I had time for it I'd probably rip it all out and do it from scratch based on a newer USB driver that I've written for the STM32 series of chips which have the same usb core
23:40:22[7]there's no real reason to keep emcore involved in the classic port - it's just that nobody seems to be willing to cherrypick the required parts and build a rockbox bootloader out of it at this point
23:41:09[7]dualboot is another of these problems that mr. someone should look into - I bet the cause is trivial, but it needs to be found, and tracking down an OF crash is a rather painstaking process
23:41:46[Saint][7]: I think, and this was somewhat confirmed yestarday, everyone is kinda hoping you'd do it.
23:42:34[7]yeah, if only I had the time for that...
23:42:54[7]I might try to assist a coordinated effort at least :)
23:42:54*[Saint] mentioned you're in study/bill-paying mode lately :)
23:43:51[7]one more thing: IF we were to kick emcore out of this process, how should the installation process look like?
23:44:37[7]from what it looks like the flashed bootloader is only exploitable on first generation classics that haven't been firmware updated
23:44:50[7]so those are the only ones that could be bootstrapped by just writing to the firmware partition
23:44:53[Saint]my assumption is; rbutil detects the model; prompts user to enter DFU and shows how if necessary; then <magic happens>.
23:45:19[Saint]I think DFU and pressing a button should be all the manual intervention required.
23:45:44[7]which kinda means that DFU is our only attack vector. but DFU means: 1. we need our own driver and get rid of interfering itunes stuff, or 2. we need to have itunes installed, piggyback on its driver, and stop it from interfering
23:45:57[7]do we have other targets that use a custom driver in rbutil already?
23:46:31[Saint]Ohhh - good point.
23:46:42[Saint]One supposes bluebrother is the man to ask.
23:47:00[7]then, after we are in DFU mode, we run into the next problem: we can only upload up to 128KB of data to IRAM, because DRAM isn't initialized yet. if we squeeze it really tight, we might be able to fit a rockbox bootloader with USB support into that
23:47:38[7]or, we fix the OF and just install something emcore-based that basically runs diskmode to do further installation
23:48:46[7]or we could try a totally different approach: just patching out the sigchecks in apple's bootloader, and doing an ipod video-like installation
23:49:11[7]that would magically fix dualboot for disk mode at least
23:50:08[7]it would require a specific (latest?) apple bootloader to be installed though, or some fuzzy patching algorithm
23:51:53[7]that kind of installation method would also make uninstallation even more trivial (not requiring DFU, and keeping the disabled sigchecks in place)
23:52:20[7]the nano2g/classic shares its USB driver with AMSv2, right?
23:52:32[7]does USB work properly on all AMSv2 targets?
23:52:45lebelliumnot at all
23:53:20[7]so that driver is basically just broken, and this isn't an ipod-specific problem at all?
23:54:13lebelliumI don't know if they share the USB driver but USB is very unstable on AMSv2
23:54:19[Saint]it *does* work.
23:54:26[7]kinda fits the pattern
23:54:31[Saint]...just, erratically.
23:54:34[Saint]and not for all.
23:54:53*[7] ponders doing an experiment
23:55:36[7]how bad does it fail usually, if it fails? no response at all?
23:56:13lebelliumI would say it behaves too randomly to answer this question
23:56:32[Saint]based on your experience, perhaps.
23:56:37[Saint]for some, it works flawlessly.
23:57:10[7]I'm pondering to attempt porting over my bare metal USB driver for that core to nano2g
23:57:18[7]and try if it enumerates at all

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