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#rockbox log for 2013-05-09

00:02:31 Join froggyman [0] (~me@unaffiliated/froggyman)
00:02:57 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
00:05:31Tornedoes someone have an ipodvideo running a current build who can, er, confirm that usb definitely still works? :)
00:07:12 Quit amiconn (Remote host closed the connection)
00:07:12 Quit pixelma (Remote host closed the connection)
00:07:35*gevaerts finds his ipod video
00:07:47gevaerts"Please wait, very low battery"
00:07:52gevaertsMaybe someone else?
00:08:21Torneall the issues i had with this before accessing hte disk in rockbox seem cleared up
00:08:28 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
00:08:29Torneit can read and write the disk, saves settings, plays audio, etc
00:08:44Tornethe ata identity info reads the real model name instead of wonky corrupted version
00:09:10Tornebut usb insert hangs up the main thread (backlight timeout/etc still working)
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02:19:20gevaertsTorne: 83554cc-130508 seems to work fine for me on my 30gb ipod video
02:19:33gevaertsWell, usb works. I didn't test more
02:57:01***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:04:07 Join Maxdamantus [0] (~Maxdamant@2001:470:f078::dead:beef:cafe)
05:05:26MaxdamantusIs Rockbox meant to expose both the internal memory and the SD card (if one exists) over USB?
05:05:49Maxdamantuseh, something says that's what it's meant to do .. but I only see the internal memory .. how does it expose the SD card?
05:06:54Maxdamantus[571990.252796] scsi 15:0:0:0: Direct-Access Rockbox Internal Storage 0.00 PQ: 0 ANSI: 4
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05:16:21MaxdamantusMm .. seems to detect both on Windows.
05:18:17[Saint]wfm on debian/ubuntu
05:19:28Maxdamantusis that meant to be to me?
05:20:31[Saint]You see any other conversations in place? :)
05:20:46MaxdamantusNo, but I just joined .. so .. what's wfm?
05:20:55MaxdamantusSeems to be some streaming format.
05:21:04[Saint]Works For Me
05:21:28MaxdamantusWhat does the second one look like in dmesg?
05:22:18[Saint]I can't tell you presently, I've just moved house and most of my shiny things are still packed up. I was just saying that it definitely exposes both drives here.
05:22:19 Quit thegeek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
05:22:24[Saint]I can tell you that much.
05:22:27MaxdamantusI think I found it.
05:22:44Maxdamantus mentions CONFIG_SCSI_MULTI_LUN, which is not set on my kernels.
05:23:13MaxdamantusThanks anyway.
05:23:28*Maxdamantus updates some kernels.
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05:53:08Maxdamantusrockblox1d is meant to be a joke, right?
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07:36:49pamauryfunman: not *all* timing registers are magic :)
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09:48:44 Join wodz [0] (
09:52:26Maxdamantussequential ~3.5MB/s write and ~6MB/s read speed of the microSD card over USB
09:52:45Maxdamantuswhat's likely to be the bottleneck there (Sansa Clip Zip, if anyone happens to be familiar with it already)?
09:53:08MaxdamantusCan do >10MB/s both ways with the card reader on my laptop.
09:53:25Maxdamantus(on the same card (with a microSD→SD adapter))
09:54:11Maxdamantusin my laptop*
09:56:55wodzMaxdamantus: Have you checked the speed with OF?
09:57:44MaxdamantusNo. I'll probably try that soon.
09:58:14bertrikThe SD card and controller of the clip zip is initialised for normal speed (25 MHz) and 4-bit wide mode, giving an upper limit of 12.5 MB/s
09:58:27*Maxdamantus just made a FAT image on his computer and copied his music to it, then started dding it to the device in the hopes that it'd be quicker.
09:58:52*Maxdamantus cbf attaching his laptop to the network by wire.
10:00:16bertrikI think the clip zip shares the sd card controller between the "internal" (built in memory) and "external" (microsd slot) sd card drive
10:01:41Maxdamantusso if it did that, it'd be half the 12.5?
10:02:52MaxdamantusI suspect someone's made a plugin to do a simple test on the device itself.
10:06:15wodzMaxdamantus: correct, but AFAIK it is not included in standard distribution
10:06:49wodzMaxdamantus: I mean storage throughput benchmark plugin
10:09:11wodz - but I can't find amsv2 in target in within this results
10:12:01MaxdamantusRight, so that's a filesystem-based thing.
10:12:29Maxdamantusthough .. dunno
10:12:52MaxdamantusNot sure what alignment would refer to doing that test in a filesystem.
10:13:20Maxdamantusunless it takes into account information about the filesystem (which there's only one of anyway)
10:13:23wodzalignment of the data in memory
10:13:58wodzunaligned transfers are usually much slower
10:15:17MaxdamantusLooks like it's insignificant for a lot of them though.
10:15:45Maxdamantusmaybe not with read
10:16:13Maxdamantusbut that's the generally faster operation, where such issues will become apparent.
10:16:54 Join Wardo [0] (
10:17:17Maxdamantus(that first one (Archos Ondio FM) apparently does better unaligned in two cases than aligned, and the same in the other one)
10:19:11Maxdamantusand yeah, the tests are all under the filesystem.
10:23:13wodzMaxdamantus: transfering files through USB uses filesystem as well, so I don't quite understand your remark
10:25:43Maxdamantusit becomes dependent on the filesystem code as well as the disk driver/hardware.
10:26:23wodztrue, and what does this change?
10:27:11MaxdamantusNot a lot, practically.
10:27:35Maxdamantusbut it could measure determine performance of a more optimal filesystem.
10:28:02*wodz failed to parse the statement
10:28:33Maxdamantusnot completely familiar with how they tend to work, but presumably you'd need to know about how caching works in the filesystem to interpret any results other than "this is faster than that"
10:29:29Maxdamantusbecause if you write one byte to a file, you'll need to read the other bytes in that sector (in the filesystem and on the disk—I think you'd hope they're the same size)
10:30:18wodzAFAIK we cache one sector at a time, no more
10:30:29MaxdamantusI think, as I said, not particularly familiar with how filesystems/disks tend to work.
10:32:16Maxdamantusanyway, using Linux's FAT32 implementation, I was getting ~2.5MB/s write.
10:32:33Maxdamantusso there's 1MB overhead coming from *SOMETHING*
10:33:14Maxdamantusa more optimal filesystem could potentially do the full 3.5MB/s on a blank disk.
10:33:41wodzBasically there are two bottlenecks: 1) raw disk/sd transfer 2) usb stack overhead. Rb usb stack tend to be rather slow.
10:33:50wodzI suspect thats the problem
10:34:55Maxdamantusbut the filesystem overhead is affected by those just as much as dding to the device is.
10:35:37Maxdamantusif the USB is slow, it's going to take longer to figure out where the blocks for some file are.
10:35:46Maxdamantusor to allocate more blocks for that file.
10:37:14Maxdamantusthere are filesystems in development that want to optimise (in performance) still for random-access devices.
10:37:40Maxdamantusbecause they know there's still (and maybe always will be) overhead.
10:41:42wodzMaxdamantus: It is highly unlikely we add another FS support to rb.
10:41:56MaxdamantusI know. I noticed.
10:42:11MaxdamantusI'm not criticising anyone for anything.
10:42:54Maxdamantusjust saying .. performance of writing/reading files doesn't correspond directly to some aspect of disk performance.
10:43:34 Join mortalis [0] (~mortalis@
10:43:45Maxdamantusas demonstrated by the 1MB/s (of 3.5MB/s) overhead in FAT on Linux.
10:44:32Maxdamantusyou might be able to calculate that overhead by bringing in some other factor like random access—maybe some part of the hardware actually reads a few sectors ahead just in case.
10:47:58bertrikthere is no fancy caching, readahead, or IO scheduling in rockbox as far as I know
10:48:24Maxdamantusso if USB is a bottleneck, doing that might be advantageous.
10:48:36Maxdamantusor not—considering the amount of memory on most of the devices it runs on
10:49:10Maxdamantus(if USB benefits from sending lots of data one way)
10:49:27Maxdamantus(rather than responding to a request for every sector read)
10:49:33*Maxdamantus is also unfamiliar with how USB works
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11:01:30bertrikMaxdamantus: there is an excellent intro into USB called "usb in a nutshell" (from beyondlogic IIRC)
11:02:04bertrikbasically, it's a master-slave protocol (the device being a slave)
11:02:23pamauryas far as I know our usb storage driver is double buffered, I can't see how it could be faster
11:02:43 Join DexterLB [0] (~dex@
11:02:44bertrikpamaury: oh, didn't know we double buffered
11:02:57pamaurysurely we could squeeze out a few more bits of performance but with 10MB/s that's far from the maximum bandwidth
11:03:41bertrikBy the way, I saw a post on google+ about a hacker who decoded RDS-TMS messages
11:03:50 Join stoffel [0] (
11:04:24pamaurybefore blaming the usb stack one should first do a raw read/write benchmark using the plugins, maybe the sd driver is just slow
11:04:51pamaurybertrik: link ? I began some work toward this but I haven't touched it in a log time now
11:04:53MaxdamantusYeah, will probably do that after I've done this transfer.
11:05:17Maxdamantusdon't want to leave the drive with Rockbox with a temporarily invalid filesystem.
11:05:39Maxdamantusdd if=/3t/64sdd1 bs=1M count=45640 of=/dev/sdd1
11:07:09pamaurybertrik: ok I misunderstood, that's tmc, nice
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11:12:52bertrikthere's a bunch of fun stuff we can still do for RDS
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11:13:58bertrikAlso, I'm thinking of using the tuner interrupt for faster tuning on some of the si470x tuners. Currently we just wait for a pre-determined time, possibly waiting too long.
11:17:25pamaurywould that really be a win ? I'm under the impression that it is already quite fast but i'm always for improvements too ^^
11:18:22bertrikI think we're already faster than the OF, but I don't mind getting even faster.
11:18:45bertrikMany tuners also support a kind of "built-in" seeking, that we don't currently take advantage of in rockbox
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11:20:12wodzbertrik: rather archive this blog page while it is still online :-)
11:20:45bertrikI read she got somd kinf of takedown notice already :)
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11:28:08pamaurywodz: already done :)
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11:28:51pamaurybertrik: indeed, we could be much faster on seeking using the built-in mode probably, but our interface makes it impossible or akward
11:29:11pamauryand I don't know how reliable it is
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12:12:29wodzmortalis: What do you think about g#466 in general?
12:12:31fs-bluebotGerrit review #466 at : rk27xx: Use DMA for lcd_update_rect() by Marcin Bukat (changes/66/466/4)
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13:37:36MaxdamantusHmm .. apparently you're meant to mount the filesystems on Linux with iocharset=utf8 .. that option is described by the man page as “Character set to use for converting between 8 bit characters and 16 bit Unicode characters.”
13:37:52Maxdamantusas in .. for converting *TO* the 16-bit unicode characters on FAT.
13:38:16Maxdamantusactually, that's probably UTF-16/UCS-2
13:38:25Maxdamantusso probably a safe operation .. ugly though.
13:38:30*Maxdamantus hates UTF-16.
13:38:54*Maxdamantus would rather Java/Javascript programs use UTF-8 in their 16-bit strings.
13:39:17Torneutf-16 is unfortunate, nobody chose it on purpose
13:39:45MaxdamantusI guess other OSes probably use UTF-16 .. I remember opening shortcut files when I was younger and seeing filenames with alternating squares.
13:39:47Torneall the things that use 2-byte unicode encoding made that choice when the consortium intended for there to only be 65536 codepoints
13:39:55Torneso, utf-16 was never supposed to be :)
13:39:58Maxdamantus(in Windows)
13:40:11Tornelanguages don't want to use utf-8 because it makes character based indexing expensive
13:40:27Maxdamantusso .. does Rockbox actually support the fully unicode set?
13:40:32*Maxdamantus will have to try it in a minute.
13:40:35Torneno idea :)
13:40:39Maxdamantusalmost finished dding that image.
13:41:03Tornewe definitely support the whole BMP, i have no idea if the astral planes work at all
13:41:19Tornelet alone treating VFAT LFNs as UTF-16 and parsing the surrogate pairs :)
13:42:16MaxdamantusYeah, and all the Java and Javascript programs that were confirmed to work with Russian/Arabic/whatever writing system you can think of that isn't Classical Mongolian (which is vertical and extremely complicated so noone cares) work with it too.
13:43:22Maxdamantusoh, nvm .. Classical Mongolian is in the BMP.
13:43:43Tornewell, yah, if programs are careful and the text rendering stuff on the backend supports it then you can render the astral planes perfectly fine as ong as you just pass data through unaltered
13:43:48Maxdamantusbut nothing renders it.
13:43:51Torneit's only when you actually manipulate strings encoded in utf-16 that you have a problem
13:44:08Tornewhen you accidentally index them wrong or split surrogate pairs ;)
13:44:53Maxdamantuswhich is why UTF-16 is horrible.
13:45:07Torneright, but like i said nobody actually chose it
13:45:08Torneit was an accident
13:50:45Maxdamantusif you enabled the database at some point, does it normally freeze the device after writing to the SD while it rescans the tree and updates it (the database), or would that have happened because I put a new filesystem on it?
13:52:12*Maxdamantus guesses the latter.
13:52:48copperwho needs "Classical Mongolian"??
13:52:58copperwhatever that is
13:53:02Maxdamantuspeople in inner Mongolia?
13:53:34MaxdamantusDunno. I guess most people there who use technology will be familiar with the Cyrillic script.
13:54:23MaxdamantusIt's called "Classical" as in .. rather than the "modern" one used in outer Mongolia which is based on Cyrillic.
13:54:59Maxdamantusmy dad speaks a dialect of Arabic he calls "Classical Arabic" (alongside Moroccan Arabic), which he uses to talk to people who aren't from Morocco.
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14:08:56fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision d04bd89, 214 builds, 40 clients.
14:13:49fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 293 seconds.
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14:57:11***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:16:47MaxdamantusInteresting. Linux doesn't seem to let me create filenames with characters in the SMP on FAT with iocharset=utf8
15:16:53Maxdamantusworks fine without it though.
15:17:55MaxdamantusWonder if you can use such filenames on Windows.
15:18:19*Maxdamantus can't be bothered going to the Windows computer atm
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15:36:02Maxdamantusread: 6MB/s, write: 2.5MB/s in OFW
15:36:06Maxdamantussame as in rb
15:36:38Maxdamantuswait, I had 3.5MB/s in rb write.
15:36:50Maxdamantusso faster write in rb.
15:37:44Maxdamantusoh, oops. had a second reading task going in the background.
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15:38:14gevaertsThese devices very often aren't built for maximum throughput, really
15:38:36gevaertsSo not achieving anywhere near what a dedicated reader does is common
15:42:56Maxdamantusugh ..
15:43:03Maxdamantusmakes it hard to test.
15:43:22MaxdamantusOFW takes like ten minutes to refresh the database with ~35GB of music.
15:44:15gevaertsYou could try testing it with obviously non-music files?
15:44:37MaxdamantusI'm not testing it with any files.
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15:44:47gevaertsAh, right. Plain dd?
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15:45:02Maxdamantusbut it doesn't let me connect it until it's refreshed the database.
15:47:06gevaertsTo make things more complicated, various OSes have various ways to cache stuff when dealing with USB devices, depending on all sorts of things (such as the "removable" bit) that can make dd results meaningless for e.g. windows users
15:47:12*gevaerts saw this with the ipod video
15:48:16gevaertsI don't remember if this got solved, but I used to get speeds within 5% of the OF on that one, but windows benchmarks showed something like three times slower
15:49:07MaxdamantusYeah, 3.3MB/s write.
15:50:24*Maxdamantus is doing a `sync` before and after and assuming nothing else is using anything significantly.
16:10:44MaxdamantusNo matroska then? :(
16:12:18fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 9e9f692, 214 builds, 40 clients.
16:17:19fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 302 seconds.
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16:57:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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17:26:27fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision f7d8b2d, 214 builds, 40 clients.
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18:53:25madcat1990USB is messed up in my mac mini. Emergency HDD mode doesn't work. It won't even show up. After rebooting to Rockbox, worked no problem. Good job guys!
18:54:05*gevaerts assumes s/mac/ipod/ :)
18:54:29gevaertsWeird. Emergency disk mode shouldn't ever not work unless the hardware is bad
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18:57:13madcat1990You assume well. This mac has some USB weirdness
18:57:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:57:26madcat1990Everything works just fine at home, you know, on an ASUS laptop
18:58:00madcat1990Then again, I'm running linux on said laptop, maybe that helps
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20:57:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:41:03fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision b210a3a, 214 builds, 41 clients.
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