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#rockbox log for 2013-06-01

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00:29:44lebelliumI have been gifted a Nano 2G with Rockbox 3.7.1 on it. I don't know what version I should install because of broken USB. Is the Nano 2G UMS if I use OF for USB?
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00:55:07fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision e62cb56, 217 builds, 20 clients.
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01:05:24fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 98c34d8, 217 builds, 20 clients.
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03:53:39*[Saint] wonders why he can't seem to compile the arm-eabi toolchain.
03:54:26[Saint]LaTex shennanigans.
03:56:22[Saint]Aha. Well. That's awesome. I don't even have to do anything. n1s already came across/fixed this.
04:01:07[Saint]OK, second issue: How to get around APKTool not existing anymore?
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04:07:16*[Saint] wonders how this is going to be handled.
04:08:01[Saint]I assume we'll need to add APKTool to the Rockbox source?
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06:07:44[Saint]Is there any reason I'm not aware of that would explain why compiling on raspberrypi produces a slightly smaller binary?
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06:08:52[Saint]It is only a matter of a few bytes, but I noticed that the raspberrypi consistently produces a smaller binary than my server/laptop/desktop.
06:09:24[Saint]Would this have anything to do with compiling for ARM, on ARM?
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06:10:23[Saint](and, before anyone asks: Yes, it is the same revision on all machines, and yes, the source tree is clean)
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09:59:48aniddjust bought a sansa clip zip
10:00:33aniddwill flashing with rockbox sson
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14:09:43copper and onward
14:09:52copperabout the DRC functionality in Rockbox
14:10:17pamaurydrc ?
14:10:19copperit would be nice to have simple presets with regards to how noisy the environment is
14:10:25copperdynamic range compression
14:12:26copperi.e. the Compressor
14:12:50copperthe current parameters are way too complicated for a layman (including me)
14:13:05copperI mean it's good that they're there, for people who know what they're doing
14:13:22copperbut it wouldn't hurt to add easy to understand presets, with sane(ish) values
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19:00:57blazemoreDoes Rockbox run on what Apple currently sells as "iPod Classic"? I'm not sure how to parse "5.5g" as specified on the Rockbox homepage
19:01:11*blazemore just scrolled down
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19:19:10 Nick kugel_ is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
19:19:30kugelcopper: the compressor has nothing to do with how noisy the environment is
19:20:45coppercare to explain?
19:24:16copperhit n' run "you're wrong"
19:25:21kugelcopper: it reduces the dynamic range *within* the songs, regardless of the environment
19:25:39soap_I think it's rather obvious that if we have a peak volume we're willing to subject our ears to, and as the environmental noise floor increases we'd want to compress the dynamic range of our music so that the quiet parts are (significantly) above said noise floor while the peaks aren't broaching our predetermined max volume.
19:25:54copperkugel: I think you misunderstood
19:26:11copperwhat soap said
19:26:13soap_and I think such an environment-based setting is what copper's asking for.
19:26:15 Nick soap_ is now known as soap (~soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
19:27:23kugelimagine a song has very quiet and very loud passages, the compressor in Rockbox amplifies the quiet passages so that the gap isnt as large
19:27:43copperthat's the whole point
19:27:46soapwe're in agreement so far...
19:28:16copperI think kugel doesn't see the link between noisy environments and desiring some compression
19:28:36copperbut then I wonder what the original purpose of the Compressor was…
19:28:45soaplet's not assume, copper. Let kugel finish.
19:28:45kugeloh, I misunderstood. I thought you want a preset that sets the compressor up so that it adapts to the environment
19:29:12copperrather, the user would set the compressor up at will, whenever it makes sense for them
19:29:19copperwhich is, in noisy environments
19:29:30kugelcopper: I explained the original (and current) purpose of the compressor
19:29:40copperI must have missed it
19:29:56kugel"it reduces the dynamic range *within* the songs"
19:30:08copperbut why would you want to do that?
19:30:17copper(that's kind of a rhetorical question)
19:30:49kugelbecause some recordings, podcats, audio books (or even songs) are mixed badly
19:31:18copperwell, there's another use for it, which is listening to music in noisy environments
19:31:36kugelthe compressor cannot be used for any kind of echo cancellation (if that's what you're asking for)
19:31:39copperlike a car, a subway, an airplane, e.g. with earbuds that provide little to no isolation
19:31:47copperecho cancellation? what?
19:32:08kugelor do you just want to ramp up the volume if the environment gets louder?
19:32:24coppernot ramp up the volume, compressing dynamic range
19:32:45copperwell, subjectively ramping up the volume with dynamic range compression
19:32:55copperam I not clear?
19:33:37gevaertskugel: the idea is to set the volume so that the loud parts don't kill your ears while you can still hear the quiet parts. In noisy environents, reducing the dynamic range makes that a lot easier
19:33:38soapIf the quiet parts of a song at at 50db when the loud parts of a song are at 90db, and the ambient noise levels are at 70db...
19:34:07soapThe idea is to compress dynamic range so that the quiet parts of the song are at 70db when the loud parts of the song are at 90db so that the quiet parts are at the noise floor.
19:34:35kugelcopper: for this use-case just change the threshold, no need for presets
19:34:48soap(ignoring pedantic discussion of hearing below the noise floor)
19:35:07gevaertssoap: yes. Let's not go down to that level :)
19:36:56copperkugel: my point is, the parameters are mysterious voodoo for the layman
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19:37:20gevaertsMaybe it just needs some documentation?
19:37:24copperlike I said, it wouldn't hurt the have some easy to understand presets
19:37:32coppergevaerts: who reads documentation, really?
19:37:48copperpeople don't want to learn about things they're not particularly interested in
19:37:49kugelcopper: I understand, hence I'm explaining to you that for this case you only need the threshold setting
19:37:53copperI'm talking about pragmatic presets
19:38:04gevaertscopper: that's not the point! If it's documented, we can point at it, and it's not our fault any more ;)
19:38:28gevaertsI wouldn't object to presets, really
19:38:43kugelcopper: what presets would you suggest? "quiet", "loud", "very loud"? that's awefully subjective
19:38:58copperquiet, normal, noisy and very noisy
19:39:02copperyes it's subjective
19:39:16copperit's up to you, who knows what he's doing, to come up with sane presets
19:39:23gevaertsWe do have the EQ presets, and those are objectively nonsense after all
19:39:30kugelpeople are better of adjusting the threshold until they found a fine value
19:39:40copperthey won't do it.
19:39:46copperThey don't even know what a Compressor does.
19:39:53copperthey won't look it up
19:40:08gevaertscopper: in that case, how will they find the presets?
19:40:12copperand frankly, reading the documentation, it's all just voodoo to me
19:40:32coppergevaerts: because I assume they might be intrigued by what the "sound settings" menu contains
19:40:53copperbut the parameters are uncomprehensible for anyone who isn't a specialist
19:40:57gevaertsWe can easily add a paragraph to the documentation explaining which parameter to change for the common case of just being in a noisy environment
19:41:03gevaertsSo I propose to start with that
19:41:21*gevaerts looks for a volunteer :)
19:41:51copperis my suggestion offensive in some way?
19:42:15gevaertsBut any new feature under settings is controversial :)
19:42:27copperit is?
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19:42:41gevaertsRead the mailing list archives, and you'll be convinced!
19:43:47kugelcopper: I agree that the settings itself are not self-explanatory and difficult to understand for a newcomer
19:44:35soapright click for contextual help screens perhaps?
19:44:43soapoh, wait...
19:44:44kugelperhaps everything except threshold just be under "advanced" because they have little effect but may put off drive-by-users
19:45:06*gevaerts nods
19:45:34soapthe argument against that is that it just pushes shit one level deeper for advanced users.
19:46:14kugelI think that's okay in this case because they are set-and-forget
19:46:15gevaertsWe could revive the old argument about an option to hide advanced settings
19:46:26gevaertsI mean, the mailing list has been a bit quiet lately :)
19:47:17kugelsoap: also one has the possibility to add these to the quickscreen (or shortcuts) for rapid access
19:48:37soapI still think, and perhaps i should hide, that "advanced settings" could be left COMPLETELY hidden from users and only setable from a plugin. All those "set-and-forget" ones through a "new install setup" plugin.
19:49:03soapWould simplify the settings screens AND leave settings accessible to power users.
19:49:10gevaertsNot a plugin, please
19:49:17*soap hides
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20:38:23AlexPsoap, gevaerts: We should get rid of the start button too :P
20:39:47AlexPSo to use the compressor to help with noisy environments, you would just increase the threshold?
20:40:15AlexPThe noisier the environment, the higher you set the threshold?
20:41:32AlexPBecause I agree with copper, the manual explanation is somewhat opaque (whilst I'm sure correct)
20:43:05AlexPIt is understandable, but a line or two just saying to achieve this, do this would be helpful
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21:11:26kugelAlexP: yes
21:11:45kugelthe other settings have only a marginal effect
21:12:05kugel(note: I don't know exactly what they do or how they work but I experimented with them)
21:13:05copperI assumed you were the author of that feature
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21:33:01copperI don't think that Rockbox needs to be a product exclusively for audio nerds
21:33:12gevaertsIt definitely isn't
21:33:44copperIMO, ideally, there would be parameters for enthusiasts, and parameters for people with little knowledge about digital audio
21:35:17copperpresets aren't inherently bad when they're chosen sensibly by knowledgeable people
21:35:40copper(which I'm not in this particular instance)
21:36:26copperI think that choosing reasonable "defaults" is part of any end-user oriented project
21:37:15coppersoftware authors decide what those are because they know better
21:37:25gevaertsI'm not convinced we're an end-user oriented project either :)
21:37:34copperwhat is Rockbox then? :)
21:37:46gevaertsA *developer* oriented project
21:37:56gevaertsMany of us don't know much about audio at all :)
21:38:00gevaertsWell, that's the reality
21:38:17copperdepends on what each of you is working
21:38:18gevaertsI'm not saying it's ideal
21:39:39AlexPIt definately isn't audiophile oriented
21:39:44soapPerhaps a "theme" which changes the colur of "advanced" audio features. In order to better distinguish the "don't touch noob!" ones...
21:39:54AlexPlook at the resampler (until recently?) :)
21:40:38AlexPBut while users aren't unimportant, it has generally been about developers first
21:51:46copperkugel: btw, this is the first time that I hear someone say that an album was "badly mastered" because of high dynamic range…
21:54:51kugelwell, it's subjective again
21:55:12kugelI also didnt say I know about such albums but it seems possible to me
21:55:26copperhigh dynamic range is usually desired
21:57:23kugelnot a music album, but the matrix blu ray release is horribly mastered, loud actions scenes along with very quiet dialogs. So yea, it's possible that even the original source sucks in that regard
21:58:34copperdynamic range compression is not the best solution for that
21:58:53copperI emphasize the center channel on the 5.1 soundtrack for that
21:58:57copperwhen downmixing to stereo
21:59:16copperbecause the center channel contains most of the dialogs
21:59:46kugelI do that (for this movie only) but it still isnt enough
22:00:05copperit works for me on every movie
22:00:11copperand I watch a lot of movies
22:03:10copperalso, movies are definitely a special case that's not really present with music albums
22:03:52copperwhen it comes to music, it's mostly about well mastered music that sounds good, vs. horribly compressed music that sounds like goo
22:04:24copperclassical music in particular has high dynamic range
22:04:31coppercan't really blame it for it
22:05:05copperI've listened to classical music in a running car, and it's just not possible to listen to it in good conditions without high dynamic range
22:05:16copperbut I'll never say it's badly mastered because of that
22:05:30copperyou're supposed to listen to such music in perfect conditions
22:05:59copperlike in a theater with a silent audience, or at home with your windows closed
22:07:57kugelperhaps I wasn't clear. I meant to say that the sound of this matrix blu ray is not as "the author intended", i.e. broken, even though it's an official blu ray release (not rippped or something). That was to say that it's possible that even original sources can be messed up
22:08:32kugelthat normaly doesn't happen to music which is mostly in a "as the author intended" condition
22:11:26kugelanyway, the compressor can be a tool to make sources with bad dynamic range (be it music or recordings with a sucky microphone) sound better
22:12:44kugeland that's one if its purposes, adapting to noisy environments may be another (I don't know the motivation of the author of the compressor)
22:13:14AlexPnoisy environments is the prime purpose IMO
22:14:16AlexPsome types of music (e.g. classical) have huge dynamic range - great in the quiet with good kit, hopeless in noisy environments (e.g. the car)
22:15:29gevaertsIf you're unhappy about an audio file in general (i.e. not just in specific conditions), I'd say you should "correct" it elsewhere. You *can* use rockbox DSP stuff for that, but if you always do that, I'd say it's a waste of battery
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22:47:13coppergevaerts: except when you listen to high dynamic range as often at home as you do in the car
22:47:57gevaertscopper: exactly. In that case you want to use on-demand DSP
22:49:19gevaertsI mean, for cases such as noisy environments, you want on-demand DSP, while for cases such as badly mastered files you want to fix the files
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