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#rockbox log for 2013-06-02

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00:55:38soapfix the files?
00:56:26gevaertsWell, if you're fundamentally unhappy with how a file sounds, and you *always* want the exact same DSP stuff done to it, I'd say it makes sense to do that once
00:56:29soapNot to drag this off #rockbox, gevaerts (though I'll bring it around) but by what procedure can a "badly mastered file" be fixed?
00:56:45gevaertsIt probably can't :)
00:56:56gevaertsWell, it all depends on what's wrong with it of course
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01:38:33robinHi. does anyone know how to invert the color of a viewport on a monocrome target?
01:39:12robinI want to create a custom mainmenu with the skin engine on my clip+
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03:01:46EJhello im looking for some help with the e200r patcher
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03:21:58robin@EJ: still there? what is not working?
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11:37:31pamaurythis is weird, sd/ata transfers on stmp3600/stmp3700 are damn slow, I must be missing something
11:40:33pamauryah, the card takes ages to switch to TRAN state :-/
11:59:04 Join vsync_ [0] (
12:05:38vsync_I'm at a loss here. Thinking of getting an ipod classic, mostly because of the hdd capacity, and then slamming rockbox for playing flacs amongst other things. I've heard about the 6g/7g, however models being sold here all seem '6g', with the model being 'MC297QS/A'. I'd like to know, how's the rockbox port for this model doing? Mainly stability, and the ability to get line-out from the dock connector.
12:06:54vsync_everything i've read out of the ipod classic ports seem dated, so is the project dead or?
12:10:32gevaertsvsync_: as far as I know (I don't have a classic myself), rockbox runs fine on it, as soon as it's installed (installation is not as straighforward as we'd like...). I have no idea if line out works though
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12:14:35gevaertsApart from the installation and bootloader issue (we'd like not to have people to install emcore first, which is the main thing that keeps the official status "unusable"), the port seems to be as advanced as any other port, which is why it doesn't get much special attention
12:16:51vsync_it states that line-out works, my understanding is that the only way to pull it from the classic is the dock connector, then again 'accessories' are not supported. But I guess it will work just fine then. Thanks!
12:18:11gevaertsYes, accessories, line out, and usb all share the same connector, but they're on separate pins and aren't really related
12:20:02vsync_yeah, figured that much
12:20:19vsync_the description was a bit vague, but understood
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12:23:14copperI've always had USB problems with the Classic port, but apparently that might be related to the theme that I was using (I don't know if that's still the main theory)
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12:47:53vsync_Well, think i'm off to get one then :)
12:48:15vsync_laters, huge thanks for the clarifications =)
12:53:13copperon a sunday?
12:53:43vsync_yeah :)
12:54:04vsync_this shoip's open 'til 4 pm, around 2pm here at the moment
12:54:33vsync_i'll be leaving for the countryside tomorrow so i have to go get it today pretty much
12:58:00coppervsync_: make sure to install the latest rockbox build for the Classic:
12:58:45vsync_not quite there yet :) but i'll keep it in mind. Now ima run!
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13:36:54pamaurynot bad: ZEN Mozaic storage reads at 7MB/s
13:38:21lebelliumIs it possible to get a "full" URL when searching on the theme site? Instead of ""
13:40:21gevaertssearch uses POST
13:41:45lebelliumwhat does that mean?
13:42:31GodEaterit means "no" :)
13:42:43gevaertsThat means *is* the full URL
13:45:08lebelliumwhat is the advantage of this "POST" over a changing URL?
13:45:45gevaertsIn this case, probably not much
13:46:06gevaertsIn general, a lot more data. Try uploading a file using URL parameters :)
13:49:31lebelliumOk thanks for the answer. I wanted to make a direct link to all my themes but I have to give up then.
13:50:41*gevaerts is confused
13:51:05gevaertsWhy do you need search to link to themes?
13:51:49lebelliumbecause I made dozens of theme for several targets. With search I can use author name or theme name to get them all on the same page
13:52:39 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
13:54:09lebelliumwell... dozens of themes is exaggerated, I made 9 themes so far. But I don't see any other way to achieve what I want.
13:55:00gevaertslebellium: actually, it does work with GET
13:56:49lebelliumthat's exactly what I wanted! Thank you! :D
13:59:46lebelliumI don't find the right label for search type "theme name" though
13:59:59lebelliumI tried themename, theme_name, and theme name
14:02:03lebelliumok... shame on me
14:05:35vsync_alrightey :) time to start rockboxing this ipod
14:06:42 Quit stoffel_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
14:07:39vsync_oh ffs, apple still doesn't throw in a wall plug in these...
14:15:44AlexPvsync_: Yeah, it's because Apple products are so cheap :)
14:18:22vsync_:) well, the price wasn't all that through-the-roof, ~240 eur for a 160G player seems quite reasonable. I'm not an apple fanboy, but the fact that this has 160G space and it's rockbox-able sealed the deal. I guess there are other players with as much space than this one, and are rockboxable, but this one's the most readily available in here, and i guess in most places :)
14:19:06AlexPNot without modifying them
14:19:20AlexPSadly Apple seem to be the only ones making large capacity devices
14:19:31AlexPAnd I wouldn't be at all surprised if they dropped them soon
14:20:38copperthe iPod Classic is one of the few HDD based DAPs remaining, with large storage
14:20:56vsync_correction, one of the few awesome daps remaining
14:20:59copperevery other player seems to be limited to 64GB of internal (or external) flash memory, for some reason
14:21:31AlexPmost people don't need more
14:21:34copperand there aren't even many of those
14:21:51copperAlexP: I guess Apple begs to differ, with they iPod Classic?
14:21:56vsync_most people don't even need that, because DAPs are dying. Phones with streaming is what most people do
14:22:18gevaertscopper: they agree. That's why they sell the nano
14:22:42coppergevaerts: they sell the nano, the iPod Touch with 64GB flash, and the iPod Classic
14:22:46copperthey sell the whole range
14:22:49AlexPcopper: There is a market, but it is small
14:22:52*gevaerts nods
14:22:57AlexPIf it were large, everyone would sell them
14:23:08copperthe Classic sold rather well
14:23:09vsync_AlexP: the market is so niche, don't think it's worth it anymore
14:23:17vsync_copper: well, long ago it did
14:23:26copperand youngin's are increasing their library
14:23:48vsync_in a few years, I think apple drops the classic. Might even drop the nano, who knows
14:24:25AlexPvsync_: That was my point
14:26:27copperthere must be a reason they're still selling it after four years, though
14:26:58copperstores that sell iPods usually offer ALL iPods
14:27:07coppernano, touch, and classic
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14:36:01vsync_is not working?
14:36:21vsync_Oh. Just took a while
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14:44:13vsync_yay. it's rockboxed now
14:46:07coppercongrats :)
14:46:24copperRockbox is a fine piece of software.
14:46:35vsync_tyty. now onwards moving ~140 gs of mostly flacs in there
14:46:49copper(I'm not congratulating myself here, as I have nothing to do with Rockbox development)
14:47:55vsync_this will take hours
14:48:59coppervsync_: the iPod's HDD is actually a lot faster than other DAPs' flash memory
14:49:07copperI measured it at 20 MB/s
14:49:26copperwhereas other DAPs write at 6 MB/s or less
14:50:08copperit just suffers from latency (the HDD spinning up)
14:50:09vsync_12.8 MBps atm
14:50:49vsync_quite constant, doesn't budge
14:51:12vsync_did you measure that with a large file?
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14:53:54vsync_or, with apple's stock firmware?
14:54:41copperrockboxed iPod, with all kinds of files
14:55:28gevaertsSame disk?
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14:55:50vsync_this is the 6th gen classic
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14:56:44coppergevaerts: "same disk"?
14:56:57copperthe last iPod Classic is from 2009
14:57:06copperso I assume we both have the exact same model
14:58:06vsync_yeh should be
14:59:13 Quit gevaerts (Client Quit)
14:59:48vsync_atm copying ~1500 flacs back to back 20-40 MB a piece
15:00:00vsync_still 12.8 MB/s
15:01:07 Quit stoffel (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
15:03:31vsync_Oh, and I'm like, a total virgin to rockbox. Was wondering, I'm hoping you can delete stuff from the filesystem with it?
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15:10:44copperI think you can, yes
15:10:58copperlong press on "select" on a file, I think?
15:11:04coppercheck the manual if you're not sure
15:11:32vsync_yeah, gonna have to browse that through :) just checking, it'd be an awesome feature!
15:12:00AlexPyou can
15:12:01copperhmmm, is not responding to me right now
15:12:36gevaertscopper: it's not *dead*, just very slow I think
15:13:02*gevaerts looks for Bagder, Zagor, or LinusN
15:14:10coppervsync_: btw, the manual that you need is here:
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15:14:52vsync_ty =)
15:16:04vsync_one more question, hopefully haven't bothered you guys too much... Theme compatibility, I'm guessing ipod 3g, color and video?
15:17:01vsync_only comes down to the screen size I suppose.
15:17:31vsync_hmm. Nevermind, will check myself. Think color had a smaller screen :)
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15:25:05gevaertsvsync_: ipod video
15:25:13gevaertsAll older ipods have different screens
15:25:26vsync_yep, thansks
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17:57:09TheSevengevaerts: I think you might want to add that USB is broken on the ipods
17:57:30TheSevenpamaury: any updates on that btw?
17:57:36copperTheSeven: is there any consensus on what the problem is?
17:57:42TheSevenwas my refenrence driver of any help?
17:57:56TheSevencopper: apparently multiple root causes
17:58:35copperto be honest I have had USB problems with bloody everything
17:58:40TheSevenUMSboot failing to work is rather new, much newer than the last code change, so this must have been some host side change... windows updates? new itunes version interfering with something?
17:58:48pamauryno sorry, I began some work but never finished
17:59:19TheSeventhe USB problems within rockbox itself (lockups etc.) are likely to have a different cause though, a bad host shouldn't be able to cause that
17:59:50copperworse, I have ALWAYS had USB problems with everything, ever
17:59:58copperwith half a dozen different PCs
18:00:03copperfrom different makers
18:00:09copperwith different chips
18:00:11TheSevenwith everything rockboxed, or with every USB device in general?
18:00:16copperin general
18:00:34TheSevenhm, that's unusual
18:00:44copperthough Rockbox is significantly worse
18:01:15coppermy Clip+, my Fuze+ and my iPod Classic all crash, more or less frequently, during USB transfers
18:01:38copperI'm not sure who to blame at this point
18:01:44TheSeventhose are all AMS sansas, i.e. devices which a synopsysotg core?
18:01:50coppernot the iPod
18:02:00TheSevenyeah, but that has the same USB core
18:02:14copperwell those are the devices that I own
18:02:50TheSevenso my guess is that there's some race condition or fifo misconfiguration in the drivers for that core, which starts to cause trouble as soon as there's traffic on multiple endpoints at once
18:03:04copperI wouldn't possibly know
18:03:23TheSeventhat explains both the failures related to HID, but also some USB mass storage lockups that are related to control transfers happening in parallel
18:03:40TheSevenand I know that the core is kinda picky about this kind of thing
18:04:20copperbut to be fair, I have had mouse problems, USB HDDs getting corrupted, Flash drives getting corrupted, a DAC that gets disconnected sometimes, etc…
18:04:51copperall with very different machines with totally different chips, although all of them have been running various (old and new) versions of Linux
18:05:34copperUSB has been a big fat FAIL in my book ever since it was introduced
18:05:46coppernever had any problems with any other protocol
18:05:57copperethernet, SATA, eSATA, etc…
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18:06:17copperI know that's not very helpful :(
18:06:46copperit's just 10+ years of stuff crashing
18:07:09coppermore like 15 probably
18:07:54coppersomething's amiss there
18:08:51pamauryTheSeven: not the fuze+, it's not synopsysotg
18:09:23copperthe Fuze+ sometimes crashes everytime I plug it in, 5 times in a row
18:09:27coppersometimes it's fine
18:09:59pamaurystrange, usb is really stable on my fuze+
18:10:05copperthen I have to account for my screwy microsdhc card too
18:10:30copperI'll see if a quality microsdxc card makes any difference whenever I buy one
18:10:46copperif there is such a thing
18:12:56copperI'm thinking straight up class 10 SanDisk
18:13:12copperdunno if there's anything better out there
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19:34:43pamauryurg, reverse engineer of file system, pretty complicated
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20:34:59patmanHit an I/O failure while installing rockbox, not fun, I likely had the errors waiting to be hit prior to the install of rockbox.
20:36:59patmanOn a Sansa Clip+.
20:37:18patmanBooted back to sandisk, as the rockbox firmware failed to allow mounting of the "main" partition. Running linux fedora 17, up to date.
20:38:12patmanI ended up re-formatting the device, and I think it's working better - that was one reason I was trying out rockbox, the "play previous" wasn't working with the Sansa firmware, after the re-format, it's now working.
20:38:54patmanBut you should really check the result of calling close(), and report I/O failures, especially when copying / install firmware and related files.
20:42:03copperit seems to me that no target is free of such issues
20:42:20patmanAlso, for reference, I'm running Sansa firmware version V01.02.18A. I used the Rockbox installer v1.3.1, not sure of the current/stable rockbox firmware that was installed, and had it use the Sansa V01.02.16A firmware.
20:43:08patmanIt would have been really nice if the installer said there was an I/O error, rather than seeing it later in the kernel log files, after trying to figure out what was broken.
20:43:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:43:53patmanI'd still have to re-install or format, but I would have known earlier that something was seriously wrong.
20:44:07patmanI'm going to try installing rockbox again.
20:44:08gevaertspatman: I'm not a Rockbox Utility person, so I don't know what's checked and what isn't, but I haven't seen any evidence in what you said that there *was* a problem with the installation
20:44:30gevaertsFailing to mount the filesystem does not indicate at all that the rockbox binary was not written correctly
20:44:36patmanWell, "man 2 close" says:
20:44:36patman Not checking the return value of close() is a common but nevertheless serious programming
20:44:36patman error. It is quite possible that errors on a previous write(2) operation are first
20:44:36DBUGEnqueued KICK patman
20:44:36patman reported at the final close(). Not checking the return value when closing the file may
20:44:36patman lead to silent loss of data. This can especially be observed with NFS and with disk
20:44:36***Alert Mode level 1
20:44:36patman quota.
20:44:51patmanAnd I don't see any checks on close() calls in the source code.
20:45:21gevaertsRight. I do agree that it should be checked
20:45:27patmanOK :)
20:45:38gevaertsI just don't see evidence that that's what your problem was :)
20:45:41patmanBut the mount and unmount worked fine after the install - well I think so.
20:45:59patmanWell, I got an I/O error apparently during the install.
20:46:11gevaertsWell, or near the install
20:46:20patmanNot during the mount or unmount.
20:46:20gevaertsThat could well have occured later, during unmounting
20:46:28gevaertsOr during flushing to disk
20:46:49patmanBut close() flushes the file to disk, and that's when you should see an I/O error in the code.
20:46:54gevaertsUh, no
20:47:04gevaertsfsync() does that. close() doesn't have to
20:47:13patmanBut it should :-)
20:47:22patmanSo you see I/O errors.
20:47:23gevaertsAnd I'm not at all convinced that fsync() is a good idea
20:47:37gevaertsWell, go argue that with filesystem people :)
20:48:18gevaertsPerformance would suffer dramatically if that were done
20:49:18patmanYou'll never know if the data was correctly written if it didn't sync on close(). Yes, it would be awful for performance to sync after every write (or read).
20:49:28coppersync is kinda mandatory with flaky media
20:49:49coppersuch as Rockbox DAPs mounted via USB
20:49:52gevaertsIt is true that we tend to assume working hardware in rockbox
20:50:08patmanIt's kind of mandatory with the buffer cache (i.e. writes immediately return after writing to cache, errors occur when syncing that data).
20:50:31patmanBut anyway, it would be nice if you check the result of close()
20:51:08gevaertscopper: in my experience, rockbox over USB is *not* flaky
20:51:27coppergevaerts: I have three Rockboxed devices and I beg to differ
20:52:14copperwell, two, now that I have reverted to the OF on the Classic after I couldn't handle having it crashing 4 times out of 5
20:52:25gevaertscopper: yes, but you also stated earlier today that you have such issues with every USB device you've ever used, with every OS you've ever used
20:52:39copperwith every hardware that I've owned
20:52:40gevaertsWhich means you're definitely not the typical case
20:52:51copperwhich means that I don't know who to blame
20:53:11copperI mean
20:53:23copperI wouldn't at all be surprised if the linux USB code was at fault
20:53:25copperI just don't know
20:53:37CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
20:53:37*gevaerts is of course a bit biased, having writtem much of the arc driver and the rockbox msc code
20:54:37***Alert Mode OFF
20:54:42gevaertsAnyway, going fully synchronous is a disaster for performance, especially with small files. I don't know what that would translate to exactly for rockbox utility, so probably some experimentation could be useful
20:55:05gevaertsNot checking close() is a bug though, I'd say
20:55:16coppersynching is not the answer, IMO7
20:55:35copperwhatever doesn't work, needs to be fixed
20:55:44copperthough I have no idea who needs to fix what
20:55:50gevaertscopper: you're clearly talking about something entirely different here
20:56:00coppernot really
20:56:06copperisn't he talking about I/O errors?
20:56:09copperI got those, lots of those
20:56:25patmanIf you don't believe me about close() behavior, I suggest you test that a close() fails if you get an I/O error when writing a file.
20:57:20gevaertscopper: you're talking about general USB instability here. As far as I can see, patman's case is either a corrupted filesystem or actual bad media
20:57:26gevaertsNot at all the same thing
20:58:13coppergevaerts: I have no idea what my problems are
20:58:21copperso I can't really say
20:58:34copperexcept that I've had it all
20:58:41patmanMine was very likely bad media, that then probably lead to file system corruption, and corruption of the rockbox installation. *And* my Sandisk install was probably corrupt or also broken.
20:58:59*gevaerts nods
20:59:14gevaertsAnd you can't magically "fix" bad media. You can at best detect it
20:59:15copperRockbox crashing, Rockbox freezing, filesystem corruption, etc…
20:59:50gevaertscopper: also, patman's case was *not* running rockbox, by the way
20:59:52copperand I'm sorry, but if Rockbox freezes or crashes, then surely it has a part in it
21:00:20patmancopper: not true.
21:01:00patmancopper: If your OS or software crashes because of hardware problems, it's not the OS or software that is at fault.
21:01:15copperI'm talking about ROCKBOX freezing and crashing
21:01:59gevaertsThat can still be caused by the CPU doing something wrong
21:02:15gevaertsStill, yes, up to a point hardware issues shouldn't cause a crash
21:02:16copperwhatever the cause is, Rockbox should be able to handle it
21:02:31gevaertsIf the CPU says 2+2=7, rockbox can *not* fix that
21:02:35copperwhat CPU
21:02:40copperthe CPU of my computer?
21:02:45copperor the CPU of my DAP?
21:02:45gevaertsOf course not
21:02:48gevaertsThe DAP
21:02:50patmancopper: Or try taking a hammer to the device ...
21:02:57copperso you're saying ALL THREE of my DAPs are faulty?
21:03:25copperthat would be some unfortunate coincidence
21:03:38gevaertsYou seem to have this idea that there must be *one* cause for all the issues you've seen over the years
21:03:46gevaertsThe world isn't that simple
21:04:00copperno no no
21:04:03copperI don't know anything
21:04:08*gevaerts nods
21:04:18copperI just know that if Rockbox crashes, that is NOT normal behavior
21:04:31gevaertsNobody said it was
21:04:46copperperhaps it is due to a host-related problem that Rockbox doesn't know how to handle
21:05:21copperI'm just saying that if that were the case, it should simply display an error message saying, "your PC is shit, by some Apple hardware, bitch"
21:06:15gevaertsYes. Ideally you'd have nice errors
21:06:33gevaertsNow you find us proper documentation for all the chips involved, and we'll work on that :)
21:07:25copperyeah yeah yeah
21:07:32gevaertsThere are such things as bugs, and we do try to fix those, some of these are *really* not simple
21:07:32copperI know that is the fallback answer :)
21:07:48copperbut I don't know what I can do except report them
21:07:53copperI have to admit
21:08:01copperI never filed a bug report about USB problems
21:08:06copperI just bitched about them in here
21:08:07coppermy bad
21:08:36copperand mostly, it seemed like those problem where already known
21:09:14copperand lately I've been told it was probably related to some themes
21:09:23copperwhich sounds really weird to me, but OK
21:09:36 Quit mrtux (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
21:10:00gevaertsWell, we don't have (or we don't use) an MMU, so that's possible
21:10:07copperyou guys know better so I have to rely on you guys
21:11:22gevaertsBut apart from that, different devices have different USB controllers, with different drivers, and therefore different bugs. So *please* don't generalise too soon about "The USB issue"
21:11:28pamaurymemory management unit, for virtual memory
21:12:12pamaurythe usb bugs can have many sources: bad hardware, bad documentation, bad driver, bad usb stack, bad app code (themes for example)
21:13:08coppergevaerts: forgive me for generalizing over ALL the Rockboxed devices that I own, three of them, with differnent hardware
21:13:27copperespecially given that I haven't encountered any other kind of bugs
21:13:40gevaertscopper: I didn't mean you specifically. It's just that I seem to see that sort of generalisation quite often
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21:14:00copperthe only issue that I've ever had, with all three devices, is USB related
21:14:08coppereverything else works just fine
21:15:01copperand having spent time here for a while now, it's pretty much the only issue that I ever see come up
21:15:20gevaerts*the only class of issues :)
21:15:25copperthe only issue that doesn't have an easy fix
21:16:21gevaertsCan you remind me which devices you have? I know one's an ipod classic
21:17:03copperClassic, Clip+, Fuze+
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21:17:38*gevaerts nods
21:17:42copperI'm actually unable to use the Fuze+ right now because it just keeps crapping out
21:18:08copperI'm waiting until I can afford a new microsdcx card to see if it makes any difference
21:18:30gevaertsDoes it behave better with only the internal flash?
21:18:37copperI plug the Fuze+ via USB, it crashes
21:18:46pamauryOn Clip+, i'm not surprise, we don't have proper documentation and the driver is not very good, I TheSeven wrote a driver from scratch recently but I didn't finish the port to rockbox. But on the fuze+ i'm really surprise
21:18:47copperI plug the Fuze+ via USB again, it crashes
21:18:55copperand so on, until my patience runs out
21:19:16pamaurywhich theme do you use ?
21:19:19coppermy own
21:19:43pamauryhum, I think theme have been known to be a primary source of crashes with usb
21:19:49copperwhich does nothing special
21:19:57copperit's a really simple theme
21:20:14pamauryhave you tried with the default theme for example ? to see if it still crashes ?
21:20:36copperno, but I promise that I will whenever I get my new microsdxc card
21:20:54copperI just can't have my flaky card be a factor
21:21:40copperbecause I already know that it's flaky no matter what
21:21:45pamauryjust try to unplug the card and change theme, that will be a good test
21:21:57copperI bought it in a chinese store, maybe it's a cheap chinese knock-off
21:21:58gevaertspatman: there seems to be the slight problem that Qt's close is void. See
21:22:03patmanBTW, I tested and get an error of 5 (EIO) from write() if I remove the USB device while a file is open(), and close() also fails with errno 5. So, the metadata or unmount might have gotten the I/O error. And the write() is obviously not completely asynchronous of the write to the actual hardware.
21:22:17pamauryalso the sd code for the fuze+ in the trunk contains an issue, which I fixed but didn't commit yet
21:22:21patmanAnyway, thanks for taking the time to listen to my issue :)
21:22:32*gevaerts will prod bluebrother^ about this :)
21:24:18patmanI'll have to try rockbox again some other time ... heading out and taking my music with me for now.
21:24:28gevaertsHave fun!
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