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| 06:33:57 | [Saint] | Does anyone know of a nice set of media icons with a permissive license? |
| 06:34:31 | [Saint] | Preferably with shuffle/repeat icons, and the usual play/pause/stop/seek icons. |
| 06:35:21 | [Saint] | Oh, also, ...with SVg sources? |
| 06:35:27 | [Saint] | *SVG even |
| 06:36:03 | [Saint] | (may seem off-topic, but its for a cabbieV2 replacement demo) |
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| 07:18:35 | polemon | hello, I have an iPod nano 2nd gen, and according to what's on the website, USB is broken |
| 07:18:54 | polemon | I have a rather current dev build on my ipod, and USB seems to work. |
| 07:19:01 | polemon | is that information outdated? |
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| 08:20:07 | [Saint] | polemon: "rather current dev build" is quite meaningless, I'm afraid. |
| 08:20:17 | [Saint] | Could you actually report the version, please? |
| 08:20:41 | polemon | the one from two days ago, I don't remember the rather cryptic SVN hex number |
| 08:21:50 | [Saint] | You don't need to. |
| 08:21:59 | polemon | I mean either it just works, or I don't know what to look for |
| 08:22:09 | [Saint] | debug (keep out!) > Rockbox Info will report the version. |
| 08:22:18 | polemon | ok, wait a second |
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| 08:24:50 | polemon | Ah, ok, I think I found it: 662f757-130628 |
| 08:25:06 | [Saint] | Thank you. |
| 08:25:21 | polemon | System > Rockbox Info |
| 08:25:25 | polemon | that's where I found it |
| 08:25:43 | [Saint] | Ah, sorry, my mistake. I thought it was in the debug menu. |
| 08:25:47 | [Saint] | Thank you anyway. |
| 08:25:54 | polemon | heh, no problem |
| 08:26:01 | [Saint] | Though, I am rather more afraid of the situation now that it works. |
| 08:26:08 | [Saint] | I would much prefer it didn't. |
| 08:26:18 | [Saint] | Bugs that magically fix themselves are bad news. |
| 08:26:19 | polemon | hmm, I can do a test or to, if you want me to |
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| 08:26:45 | [Saint] | If it doesn't panic immediately on USB insertion, then you aren't seeing the bug. |
| 08:26:55 | polemon | ok, I'll check again |
| 08:27:10 | [Saint] | If it mounts at all, and you can transfer, then you're definitely not seeing it. |
| 08:27:23 | [Saint] | Which is "good", but rather suspicious. |
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| 08:30:01 | polemon | ok, it works like this: |
| 08:30:31 | polemon | if the thing is running, and I insert the USB cable, sometimes it panics, sometimes it does nothing, but panics when I remove the USB cable |
| 08:30:49 | polemon | but, when the device is not powered, and I insert the cable AND THEN boot the iPod, it works as expected |
| 08:31:05 | polemon | if I remove the cable then, it resumes to normal operation |
| 08:31:18 | polemon | now lets see what happens if I reinsert the cable... |
| 08:31:23 | [Saint] | Thank you. This is somewhat helpful information. |
| 08:31:34 | [Saint] | s/somewhat/quite/ |
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| 08:33:19 | polemon | ok, when I reinsert the cable, the iPod went into the USB-Mode, but some weird things appeared in the lower right corner of the screen |
| 08:33:31 | polemon | the iPod is charging, but doesn't mount |
| 08:33:42 | polemon | when I remove the cable the iPod stays in the USB mode! |
| 08:34:12 | polemon | the clock is still running, but the buttons don't work |
| 08:34:49 | * | [Saint] prods TheSeven - can you explain the behaviour defined above? |
| 08:34:50 | polemon | after a reboot it's back to normal |
| 08:35:30 | polemon | ok, I tested it again: when I insert the USB cable WHILE it's already running, I get the panic |
| 08:35:36 | [Saint] | Well, the bug seems to have slightly lessened its severity...but I can see no obvious reason as to why it should do so. |
| 08:35:43 | polemon | when the cable is inserted before it boots, it goes into the USB mode as expected |
| 08:36:13 | polemon | and then resumes normal operation when unplugged |
| 08:36:34 | [Saint] | The last time I tested this, which was many moons ago, USB didn't work under any circumstances whatsoever. |
| 08:36:49 | polemon | except booting the device in Disk mode? |
| 08:37:01 | polemon | disk modes seems always to work |
| 08:37:09 | [Saint] | Correct. That is always expected to work as it isn't under our control at all. |
| 08:37:16 | polemon | first time I uploaded the dev version, it wouldn't boot |
| 08:37:44 | polemon | I though I've bricked it, but then booting into disk mode and loading the firmware again, worked |
| 08:37:56 | [Saint] | Hmmmmm...this is curious. I cannot replicate your behavior. |
| 08:38:16 | polemon | does it have anything todo with the themes, maybe? |
| 08:38:26 | [Saint] | Which bootloader are you using? Are you using the Rockbox bootloader, or an iLoader/emCORE version? |
| 08:38:38 | polemon | the one that came with rockbox |
| 08:39:00 | polemon | the utility has this option, I ticked the checkbox where it said "install bootloader" |
| 08:39:17 | [Saint] | That /may/ have an effect on my situation, but by the time Rockbox boots whatever loaded it _shouldn't_ be relevant. |
| 08:39:45 | [Saint] | I will revert back to the Rockbox bootloader this evening and check this. |
| 08:40:14 | [Saint] | And, yes, although it is technically "impossible" for it to do so, themes very well could have an effect on this behavior. |
| 08:40:37 | [Saint] | Preferably all tests should be done with the system default, cabbieV2. Just so everyone is on the same page. |
| 08:41:38 | polemon | ok, I've just selected cabbieV2 |
| 08:41:42 | polemon | let's see... |
| 08:42:41 | polemon | ok, now the iPod can't get out of the USB mode again |
| 08:43:00 | polemon | it still displays the USB plug, but the iPod isn't plugged in anymore |
| 08:45:14 | polemon | ok, now, the iPod didn't mount, but after removing the cable the Rockbox got out of the USB mode.. |
| 08:45:21 | polemon | seems to have a mind of it's own, really |
| 08:45:24 | [Saint] | Curious. And, the behaviour is the same ragrdless if the iPod is shutdown, or running, during USB insertion? |
| 08:45:52 | polemon | this was after reboot, then inserted, then unplugged |
| 08:45:57 | [Saint] | It may also be helpful to know what the theme was prior to changing back to cabbieV2. |
| 08:45:59 | polemon | it didn't panic, but didn't mount |
| 08:46:18 | polemon | it was a modification of electricbarsofcolor I did myself |
| 08:49:17 | polemon | ok, now it seems to be in a state, that it senses being plugged into the USB port, and resumes operation after unplugging but doesn't mount |
| 08:49:53 | [Saint] | Still with cabbieV2? |
| 08:49:58 | polemon | yes |
| 08:50:31 | [Saint] | I know this is a lot to ask, and rather tedious, but could you please check if normal operation (or, the somewhat normal operation) resumes when you go back to your custom theme? |
| 08:50:54 | [Saint] | Thank you very much for this, by the way. |
| 08:51:23 | polemon | not a problem, it's just sticking the USB plug in and out for me |
| 08:51:26 | polemon | and running dmesg |
| 08:53:30 | polemon | [346184.085112] usb 2-5: USB disconnect, device number 4 [346198.030090] usb 2-5: new high-speed USB device number 5 using ehci-pci [346203.139223] usb 2-5: device descriptor read/all, error -110 [346203.240961] usb 2-5: new high-speed USB device number 6 using ehci-pci |
| 08:53:48 | polemon | this is particularily interesting: [346203.139223] usb 2-5: device descriptor read/all, error -110 |
| 08:57:24 | polemon | [Saint]: you still there? |
| 08:57:36 | [Saint] | I am, yes. |
| 08:58:08 | [Saint] | I _think_ that is an ehci bug that seems to be present in a lot of distributions. |
| 08:58:15 | [Saint] | Easy to check for. |
| 08:58:43 | polemon | http://pastie.org/8098987 <−−- I've left the iPod connected to the computer for some time, and this is what dmesg says |
| 08:58:58 | [Saint] | Are you aware of how to disable USB 2 (temporarily? |
| 08:59:18 | polemon | uh, I probably have to rmmod a module? |
| 09:00 |
| 09:00:21 | [Saint] | modprobe -r ehci-hcd should do the trick. Though I'm not really sure how useful this is, as it isn't really much of a solution at all. |
| 09:00:47 | [Saint] | It would be much more interesting to know *how* we trigger this bug, but that is beyond me. |
| 09:01:13 | polemon | modprobe: FATAL: Module ehci_hcd is builtin. |
| 09:01:41 | [Saint] | Gah. Nevermind. |
| 09:02:21 | polemon | hmm, it used to work, though |
| 09:02:53 | polemon | [346731.517935] usb 2-5: reset high-speed USB device number 30 using ehci-pci |
| 09:03:03 | polemon | now I don't get the errors, but the device doesn't mount |
| 09:03:10 | [Saint] | The only other time I have been able to reproduce this behavior is with some Kingston USb thumb drives formatted as FAT32 |
| 09:03:32 | [Saint] | I have no idea what triggers it. |
| 09:03:34 | polemon | now I've disconnected and it returned to normal operation |
| 09:04:16 | polemon | it seems to be quite dificult to track down, as sometimes it mounts, sometimes it doesn't sometimes it triggers errors, sometimes it doesn't do a thing |
| 09:04:32 | polemon | looks to me like either a timing problem or a protocol error |
| 09:05:06 | [Saint] | My guess is bad memory addresses. |
| 09:05:22 | [Saint] | But, its just a guess, and probably the result of a subtle bias. |
| 09:05:28 | polemon | ok, but why does it work sometimes, and sometimes not? |
| 09:05:46 | polemon | and sometimes it triggers the PANIC and sometimes it doesn't as it does not |
| 09:05:50 | polemon | s/not/now |
| 09:06:57 | [Saint] | Its only a guess, but I think it may have something to do with loading/unloading the USb screen, which may not necessarily be in the same address each time, if I understand correctly. |
| 09:07:13 | [Saint] | But the buffer system in place is insanely complex, and I get lost in it easily. |
| 09:08:05 | [Saint] | I could, also, be completely wrong :) |
| 09:08:17 | TheSeven | polemon: if it panics, what is the exact panic message? |
| 09:08:48 | polemon | erm, wait a sec, got to get it panicing again... |
| 09:08:53 | [Saint] | AH, yes, that's something I should've asked. I only ever used to get garbage addresses in the panic. |
| 09:09:39 | polemon | erm, it won't panic |
| 09:09:49 | [Saint] | Thanks for stopping by, TheSeven. This curious, seemingly new behavior intrigued me. |
| 09:10:09 | [Saint] | And its no secret this is far too low level for me :) |
| 09:11:12 | polemon | I can't get it to panic... |
| 09:11:12 | TheSeven | themes could very well have an effect, because the ipod nano USB problem looks like the whole handshaking between the USB and main threads is involved somehow... something seems to go wrong while switching to USB mode, which probably happens before something is loaded if the cable is plugged during boot |
| 09:11:27 | TheSeven | so it could even be the database and amount of music files etc. that could have an effect on this |
| 09:11:44 | [Saint] | Hmmm. Good point. |
| 09:11:45 | polemon | so it is a timing/protocol error? |
| 09:12:12 | polemon | ok, third time I've tried: can't get it to panic |
| 09:13:10 | [Saint] | Heh. Typical. Something fails repeatably, except when you *want* it to. |
| 09:13:33 | TheSeven | device descriptor read/all, error -110 means that it somehow survived the first descriptor transfers and stopped responding at some point |
| 09:14:05 | [Saint] | that's either a coincidence, or a reasonably common *nix bug. |
| 09:14:25 | TheSeven | the whole chatter after that is just the typical "this device doesn't respond AT ALL" thing, with the ipod being locked up somewhere |
| 09:15:16 | polemon | indeed, if the -110 error appears, the iPod becomes unresponsive |
| 09:15:29 | [Saint] | I can get my desktop to behave the same way with some kingston USB thumb drives. Killing ehci "fixes" it. |
| 09:15:40 | [Saint] | (on Ubuntu and Fedora) |
| 09:16:17 | [Saint] | It only happens when its formatted as FAT32 too...but I am unsure if this is a cause or a coincidence. |
| 09:16:30 | TheSeven | well, what kind of panic was it? |
| 09:16:38 | polemon | I'm using fedora as well |
| 09:17:07 | polemon | TheSeven: no panic, the screen just get's stuck, and the buttons don't work, but the ipod doesn't display the PANIC text or anything |
| 09:17:19 | polemon | I can still see the last screen of the Rockbox menu |
| 09:17:54 | TheSeven | well, I mean the panic that you got at some point |
| 09:18:07 | polemon | I honestly can't get it to panic |
| 09:18:19 | polemon | it either just locks up, or only does not mount |
| 09:18:22 | polemon | but no panic |
| 09:18:26 | TheSeven | but you did earlier? do you remember what the panic message looked like, roughly? |
| 09:18:44 | polemon | I'm sorry, no |
| 09:18:53 | polemon | but I'll try to trigger the panic message again |
| 09:18:55 | TheSeven | [Saint]: are you aware what the typical kind of USB insertion panic is? |
| 09:19:21 | TheSeven | because on my device I usually just get lockups as well, which makes this thing hard to nail down |
| 09:19:57 | [Saint] | I used to get stkov nand panics with a garbage address. |
| 09:20:03 | polemon | oooh, another error: |
| 09:20:09 | [Saint] | I can't get this thing to panic either, dammit. |
| 09:20:30 | polemon | while booting up: ATA error 1 |
| 09:20:31 | TheSeven | hm, we really need to be able to run rockbox virtualized on these devices, in user mode instead of supervisor mode, and with a little protected GDB stub accessible over serial or something |
| 09:20:33 | [Saint] | and yes, I'm aware that stkov nand panic makes absolutely zero sense :) |
| 09:20:42 | [Saint] | (in this scenario) |
| 09:21:47 | polemon | no panic again |
| 09:21:55 | polemon | but I see a lot of these after inserting: |
| 09:21:57 | TheSeven | hm, a stkov nand has typically exactly one cause: the nand is about to power down and calls the ata idle callback to flush some config/state files to the flash, and something in there uses too much stack |
| 09:22:00 | polemon | [347907.888651] usb 2-5: reset high-speed USB device number 49 using ehci-pci |
| 09:22:04 | polemon | it constantly resets |
| 09:22:52 | TheSeven | so that might very well be related to rockbox entering USB mode... 3 things to try: 1. increase NAND stack size, 2. completely disable NAND powerdown, 3. disable NAND powerdown while in USB mode |
| 09:22:54 | polemon | no panic, ever |
| 09:23:22 | polemon | I'll enable my theme that I've used before, see if that makes any difference |
| 09:23:27 | [Saint] | TheSeven: thanks for the clues. I shall attempt to have a look this evening. |
| 09:24:22 | TheSeven | those reset messages are good news, those mean that the ipod is still alive and we are "just" seeing the kind of behavior that causes things to fail with USB2 sometimes (the root cause seems to be some race condition in the USB driver which is triggered by concurrent EPO and BULK endpoint access) |
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| 09:25:48 | TheSeven | this is the typical "mounts after half an hour" behavior, which we're also observing with UMSboot recently |
| 09:26:06 | [Saint] | Oh. Sorry, slight memory failure. It was stkov usb that gave the garbage addresses. |
| 09:26:16 | [Saint] | stkov nand doesn't print an address iirc. |
| 09:26:36 | TheSeven | I really need to start another try at nailing the UMSboot version of that bug down, but I won't have time for that before the end of this month |
| 09:26:38 | [Saint] | But, stkov nand was the most common panic I saw. |
| 09:26:54 | TheSeven | stkovs should all behave the same? |
| 09:27:30 | [Saint] | I don't recall stkov nand printing an address at all...but, this may be me misremembering. |
| 09:27:43 | [Saint] | Things would be a lot easier if I could get this thing to panic now. |
| 09:27:52 | [Saint] | But it seems to be completely ignoring USb. |
| 09:28:07 | TheSeven | another thing possibly worth trying: connect USB during boot and check how it behaves for a couple of times, with varying theme/core configurations |
| 09:28:24 | TheSeven | with a really simple, and an insanely complex theme, both in terms of memory usage and drawing effort |
| 09:28:35 | polemon | I'm sorrt I can't get it to panic |
| 09:28:38 | TheSeven | might also be worth trying to enable/disable the database and dircache |
| 09:28:51 | polemon | it either does nothing, or locks up |
| 09:29:08 | TheSeven | polemon: that's the typical mess that I'm used to |
| 09:29:18 | TheSeven | (with cabbiev2, didn't try other themes) |
| 09:29:51 | [Saint] | Mine is ignoring USB *completely* now... |
| 09:29:58 | [Saint] | Not even charging. Huzzah! |
| 09:30:33 | [Saint] | Yay for things that are practically impossible to track down and don't behave how you want when you want them to! |
| 09:30:41 | TheSeven | hm, I think we should really start to instrument this somehow, and preferably in a way that is able to dump data across a reboot |
| 09:30:58 | TheSeven | or try to split things down an start with a simpler environment |
| 09:31:16 | TheSeven | making sure that the USB stack itself works before doing any of the USB mode entry/exit handshaking |
| 09:31:40 | TheSeven | might possibly be worth doing a bootloader USB build for nano2g, and checking how that behaves |
| 09:31:50 | TheSeven | should act much more predictably |
| 09:32:32 | [Saint] | Ooooh. I never thought of that. That's a good idea. |
| 09:33:39 | polemon | how many people are currently working on Rockbox? |
| 09:34:15 | [Saint] | That's rather hard to say. Actively? A few dozen? |
| 09:34:23 | [Saint] | In total, several hundred. |
| 09:34:26 | polemon | oh that many |
| 09:34:47 | polemon | I was expecting something along of maybe five to ten people actively |
| 09:35:28 | [Saint] | http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=blob_plain;f=docs/CREDITS;hb=HEAD |
| 09:35:46 | [Saint] | that's the entire project. |
| 09:36:07 | [Saint] | Active committers number a couple of dozen, at a guess. |
| 09:36:39 | polemon | do you guys plan to add more devices to the list? |
| 09:37:01 | [Saint] | There are no plans, per se. |
| 09:37:12 | [Saint] | If someone wants to work on a new port, they will. |
| 09:37:55 | [Saint] | There should be a few devices from Creative joining the lineup reasonably soon. |
| 09:38:30 | polemon | [347907.888651] usb 2-5: reset high-speed USB device number 49 using ehci-pci <−−- I have this mp3 player as well |
| 09:38:41 | polemon | interestingly, it supports Ogg/Vorbis out of the box |
| 09:38:58 | [Saint] | What device is this? |
| 09:39:12 | polemon | iBeat Organix |
| 09:40:09 | [Saint] | I can never stop giggling about the iBeat Blaxx |
| 09:40:18 | [Saint] | ...poor, poor, poor naming choice. |
| 09:40:28 | polemon | omg, I believe it was quite close to ending the company |
| 09:40:30 | [Saint] | Anyhoo. |
| 09:40:39 | polemon | TrekStor was in pretty bad shape at that poing |
| 09:40:44 | polemon | point* |
| 09:47:33 | [Saint] | A port for the Organix is certainly possible. |
| 09:47:47 | [Saint] | It "just" needs someone to do the work. |
| 09:48:24 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 09:49:42 | polemon | no idea how to port that |
| 09:50:10 | polemon | I'll try and add codec2 decoding to Rockbox, probably, but making a port, I wouldn't know where to start |
| 09:51:26 | [Saint] | That _might_ be interesting for audiobooks et al. |
| 09:51:49 | polemon | well, I have another reason actually |
| 09:52:17 | polemon | 1. I like the idea of Codec2, and I wouldn't want to see it only used on embedded devices for radio communications |
| 09:52:35 | freqmod | i have created support for codec2 for rockbox |
| 09:52:36 | [Saint] | But I rather suspect that Opus will kill a lot of the need for many codecs. |
| 09:52:41 | polemon | 2. I'd like to see how well the speech codec performs on relatively low-quality devices like that |
| 09:52:48 | freqmod | it is on my home computer, however it does only work on the simulator |
| 09:52:56 | freqmod | last i checked codec2 was only floating point |
| 09:53:14 | [Saint] | Yes, I believe you're right. |
| 09:53:14 | polemon | well, codec2 is still a long way from being finished |
| 09:53:23 | polemon | also development kinda seemed to have stalled a bit |
| 09:53:32 | freqmod | i will make a patch if/when somebody converts it to fixed point |
| 09:53:42 | [Saint] | Possibly in no small part due to Opus removing the need for it. |
| 09:53:52 | polemon | for codec2? |
| 09:53:56 | [Saint] | Indeed. |
| 09:54:02 | polemon | erm, no, not really |
| 09:54:07 | [Saint] | How so? |
| 09:54:10 | freqmod | it is supposed to support 800bps voice if optimized for size |
| 09:54:11 | polemon | there is a rather good presentation by David Rowe |
| 09:54:14 | freqmod | opus supports 8kbps |
| 09:54:37 | freqmod | now it is optimized for rf roubustness at 1.6kbps |
| 09:54:41 | polemon | it works quite good at 1400bps by now |
| 09:54:49 | [Saint] | Whoah...holy, codec2 goes that low? I must've misread in the past. |
| 09:55:13 | polemon | the c2enc lets you encode down to 1200bps, but it doesn't work too well |
| 09:55:36 | polemon | but for digital SSB communication, it is pretty much the way to go |
| 09:55:58 | polemon | at 1200bps, you can't recognise someone's voice anymore, but you still understand the spoken words |
| 09:56:34 | polemon | I am from a CB-radio background, so it kinda interests me in that way |
| 09:57:48 | [Saint] | Hmmmm. Yes. I must've misread. I didn't think codec2 had such a low bitrate. |
| 09:58:22 | [Saint] | I would still like to think that Opus will kill the need for so many specific codecs. |
| 09:58:42 | polemon | well, if it kills AAC, I'd be quite pleased |
| 09:58:57 | polemon | but more importantly, Opus is in very wide use already |
| 09:59:26 | polemon | things like Skype, Spotify, etc. streaming services are quite keen on using it |
| 09:59:52 | [Saint] | Indeed. It is incredibly diverse. |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:13 | * | freqmod waits for android support |
| 10:00:23 | freqmod | for opus |
| 10:00:42 | [Saint] | Well, /technically/ there is Opus support for Android. |
| 10:00:47 | polemon | well, Google is quite after it, as it will be used in the newer WebM with VP9 |
| 10:00:48 | [Saint] | RaaA |
| 10:01:10 | polemon | so Android support shouldn't be too far down the road |
| 10:01:21 | polemon | then again, Google kinda shunned Linux users with Google Drive |
| 10:01:32 | * | [Saint] does realize that freqmod means "native support" |
| 10:01:38 | [Saint] | I was just being pedantic. |
| 10:01:54 | freqmod | RaaA is nice, but it is not very well integrated |
| 10:02:03 | freqmod | or stable |
| 10:02:12 | freqmod | (when i tried it a few months ago) |
| 10:02:14 | * | polemon has no Android devices |
| 10:11:54 | | Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 10:13:20 | polemon | freqmod: how did you put Codec2 support into Rockbox? |
| 10:13:44 | freqmod | the same way i put speex and rockbox support |
| 10:13:51 | freqmod | linked the library and called it from rockbox |
| 10:14:11 | freqmod | it was just a proof of concept, but i stopped working on it when i didn't see any fixed point version |
| 10:14:23 | freqmod | i am not good enough with dsp to convert it myself |
| 10:17:48 | freqmod | btw the codec2 format does not support seeking |
| 10:18:08 | freqmod | but it should be possible to just jump to the correct part of the file and play from there (as it is fixed bitrate) |
| 10:26:57 | | Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 10:32:58 | polemon | well, I'd like to see it on Rockbox, because why not? |
| 10:33:19 | polemon | does the format hint on what kind of compression was used? |
| 10:33:48 | polemon | the decoder has to be told what compression that is, that he's being fed |
| 10:33:58 | | Join Norm_ [0] (~Norm@81.213.109.192) |
| 10:42:47 | | Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 10:43:29 | copper | 07:59:27 UTC <polemon> things like Skype, Spotify, etc. streaming services are quite keen on using it |
| 10:43:40 | polemon | yees? |
| 10:43:42 | copper | it's not implemented in Spotify yet though, right? I only see a feature request. |
| 10:44:04 | polemon | nope, spotify is behind, Skype moved to Opus last month |
| 10:44:23 | polemon | there is an article about this, but I'd have to look for it |
| 10:45:14 | copper | Opus tools are still missing even on computers |
| 10:45:24 | polemon | Vorbis was kinda constrained to embedded stuff and things like computer games |
| 10:45:50 | polemon | yeah, but Opus was RFC approoved just a few months ago |
| 10:46:14 | polemon | things like Liquidsoap and FFmpeg needs to get the encoders etc |
| 10:46:44 | | Nick SuperBrainAK is now known as DormantBrain (~andy@74.112.203.135) |
| 10:46:59 | copper | basic tools such as opusgain and opus tagging are still missing |
| 10:47:43 | polemon | well, since Opus is contained inside an Ogg container, you use pretty much the same thing like vorbis comment, etc |
| 10:48:21 | | Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de) |
| 10:48:41 | copper | yes but neither vorbiscomment nor oggz-comment actually support opus |
| 10:48:45 | polemon | opusenc supports that: −−comment, −−artist, −−title |
| 10:48:46 | copper | not the stable version anyway |
| 10:49:04 | copper | polemon: that's fine but you need tools to alter tags after encoding |
| 10:49:32 | polemon | yeah, but that's just something like an afterthough |
| 10:49:39 | polemon | t |
| 10:49:39 | polemon | ot |
| 10:49:50 | polemon | it's more important to get things using it beforehand |
| 10:50:13 | polemon | Opus is best for streaming, so the whole metadata thing, wasn't really that important |
| 10:50:14 | copper | how can you use it if you don't have the necessary tools |
| 10:50:52 | polemon | you have the libraries |
| 10:51:15 | copper | users need tools, not libraries |
| 10:51:29 | polemon | sure, but it's not geared at this kind of "market" |
| 10:51:43 | polemon | Vorbis was aimed at the "MP3" market |
| 10:51:50 | polemon | Opus never (and still kinda) isn't |
| 10:51:52 | copper | users are not the market? |
| 10:52:04 | copper | producers are users too |
| 10:52:12 | polemon | I've actually talked to Jasper from Xiph the other day |
| 10:52:34 | polemon | it is basically first and foremost for the technical aspect of audio streaming |
| 10:53:31 | polemon | that Opus may rival things like AAC, was pretty much accidental |
| 10:54:27 | polemon | I was a replacement for Vorbis, but they didn't think it actuall would rival over the whole spectrum |
| 10:54:49 | polemon | it was intended as a low-latency codec, but it turned out to be just as good for archiving |
| 10:55:02 | polemon | (archving meaning having the files for playback) |
| 10:55:15 | polemon | also, if you're a producer, you'd want the lossless masters |
| 10:55:31 | polemon | there is no point to keep the Opus files, really |
| 10:55:52 | polemon | even if you want to stream them, you'd re-encode them with your streaming software into opus from the FLAC masters |
| 10:56:12 | polemon | it's how most webradios work, and that's how FLAC is actually designed to work |
| 10:56:56 | copper | aaaaaah |
| 10:56:59 | copper | https://github.com/fmang/opustags |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:24 | polemon | yeah, someone seems to bother with a little tool like that |
| 11:00:29 | | Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) |
| 11:00:47 | polemon | but there's going to be many more, just like with the plethora of ID3-Tags |
| 11:13:21 | copper | brb |
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| 11:26:26 | polemon | hmm, opustags |
| 11:26:42 | polemon | the naming scheme of Xiph is completely going down the gutter |
| 11:26:59 | polemon | it should be oggtags, if anything |
| 11:32:39 | copper | 1) the author isn't associated with Xiph |
| 11:32:48 | copper | 2) it supports Opus and nothing else |
| 11:33:53 | copper | like vorbiscomment supports only Ogg Vorbis |
| 11:34:21 | copper | oggz-comment should support Opus too, in the next version |
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| 11:38:54 | copper | ugh, except oggz-comment is a lot less convenient |
| 11:39:08 | copper | it supports opus in git though |
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| 11:58:19 | polemon | copper: except it's the same thing in all of them |
| 11:58:47 | polemon | vorbis comment and opus comment is actually the same thing |
| 11:59:00 | polemon | or another way would be to say, Opus uses vorbis comments |
| 11:59:14 | copper | except that oggz-comment needed to be modified in order to support it |
| 11:59:15 | polemon | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis_comment <−−- first line of text |
| 11:59:23 | copper | so it's not all that universal |
| 11:59:57 | polemon | it's just down to the tools not understanding the universality of it |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:02 | polemon | but it actually is universal |
| 12:00:08 | copper | oggz-comment is from Xiph itself |
| 12:00:13 | copper | so if THEY don't understand it… |
| 12:00:26 | copper | someone failed, somewhere. |
| 12:00:34 | polemon | in fact Xiph have some of their "convention" problems in many places |
| 12:01:04 | polemon | for one thing, the opus tools don't behave like any other tool for Xiph codecs |
| 12:01:30 | polemon | no short options and up to the very recent SVN builds, opusenc couldn't decode FLAC files |
| 12:02:26 | polemon | it's things like that, then of course extensions: .flac <−−- whether it's inside an Ogg container or not, is not determinable by extension |
| 12:02:48 | polemon | .ogg <−−- that's the extension of Ogg/Vorbis, but .opus is the extention of Ogg/Opus... |
| 12:03:40 | polemon | they neglected OggPCM to the point where it is in the spec, but not used anywhere and by none of their tools |
| 12:03:47 | copper | Ogg FLAC extension is .oga |
| 12:03:57 | copper | or .ogg |
| 12:04:00 | polemon | it would be a great stream codec for piping things into one another |
| 12:04:18 | polemon | copper: .flac is a valid Ogg/Flac extension, though |
| 12:05:02 | copper | the flac encoder sets it to .oga by default |
| 12:05:13 | copper | and the man page says to use .oga, too |
| 12:05:16 | [Saint] | It is, yes, but people that use that need to be shot in the face. |
| 12:05:30 | polemon | hehe |
| 12:05:30 | [Saint] | FLAC in an ogg container == .oga |
| 12:05:47 | [Saint] | ...and, I see I'm late to the party and copper already said that. |
| 12:05:49 | polemon | why not vorbis in an ogg container = .oga |
| 12:05:55 | polemon | would make sense, wouldn't it... |
| 12:06:24 | copper | ah |
| 12:06:41 | copper | metaflac can't deal with .oga files! |
| 12:07:17 | * | [Saint] thinks this should /probably/ shift into *-community now |
| 12:07:24 | copper | and neither can oggz-comment |
| 12:07:25 | polemon | suffice it to say, when it comes to naming and operations conventions, Xiph is unfortunately a big chaotic hairball |
| 12:07:38 | copper | how's that for "universal" |
| 12:23:55 | copper | my bad, oggz-comment does read tags from FLAC .oga files |
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| 16:49:17 | | Join redhot [0] (b0f16b6a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.241.107.106) |
| 16:49:22 | redhot | Howdy! |
| 16:49:47 | redhot | Does anyone faced and issue with SanDisk Sansa Clip+ and 32GB microSD card? |
| 16:50:08 | redhot | My card loses some files accidentaly, and it happens from time to time |
| 16:50:36 | redhot | microSD is SanDisk Ultra 32GB |
| 16:50:56 | redhot | RockBox is 3.13 |
| 16:52:20 | | Quit olspookishmagus (Quit: free() the malloc()) |
| 16:53:46 | copper | redhot: Nope. When does it happen? |
| 16:56:13 | redhot | Accidentally... Few times. I switch on player and see some folders are completely empty |
| 16:56:49 | redhot | Re-checked on PC and it seems like these files just dissappeared. From few different folders |
| 16:57:05 | copper | where they ever there to begin with? |
| 16:57:29 | redhot | I have put files from PC to microSD and they were OK for few days |
| 16:57:45 | redhot | That after few player restarts they started to disappear |
| 16:57:54 | redhot | I suspect it may be a card issue |
| 16:58:04 | redhot | But need to clarify |
| 16:58:25 | copper | that's never happened to me |
| 16:58:43 | copper | but I do believe that the quality of the card play a role in overall stability |
| 16:58:45 | redhot | I know, I'm lucky to get enough exceptions |
| 16:58:47 | copper | plays* |
| 16:59:10 | Kohlrabi | Sounds like your card has problems |
| 16:59:39 | redhot | So basically size (32GB) is OK for Rockbox and Player , yep? |
| 16:59:44 | Kohlrabi | yes |
| 16:59:56 | redhot | It should be card quality issue? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:02 | Kohlrabi | Sounds like it |
| 17:00:26 | Kohlrabi | Did your reported volume size decrease on that card? |
| 17:00:37 | copper | Kohlrabi: uh? |
| 17:00:43 | redhot | yes |
| 17:00:46 | Kohlrabi | copper: Disabled sectors |
| 17:01:01 | copper | how does it affect volume? |
| 17:01:04 | redhot | Wait, what Soft to check? |
| 17:01:30 | Kohlrabi | copper: Disabled sectors should decrease available size |
| 17:01:40 | copper | oooh |
| 17:01:54 | redhot | Kohlrabi: and disabled sectors means "bad" sectors, huh? |
| 17:01:55 | copper | I missed the "size" part |
| 17:01:58 | Kohlrabi | Yes |
| 17:02:03 | copper | I thought you were talking about sound volume |
| 17:02:16 | Kohlrabi | I think flash card controllers are able to tag broken sectors and disable them |
| 17:02:23 | redhot | yay! It is definitely so.. What can I use to check "disabled" sectors size? |
| 17:02:27 | copper | doesn't the filesystem do that? |
| 17:02:33 | Kohlrabi | copper: Does the FS do that? |
| 17:02:41 | Kohlrabi | I thought it was down on Firmware or hardware level |
| 17:02:53 | Kohlrabi | redhot: Dunno, google := |
| 17:02:54 | Kohlrabi | :)* |
| 17:03:03 | redhot | it's ok :) |
| 17:03:56 | copper | redhot: don't be cheap on the microsdhc card, buy a high quality one from a reputable source, it will save you lots of headaches |
| 17:04:28 | copper | Kohlrabi: badblocks I guess (on linux / perhaps unix) |
| 17:05:01 | copper | so yeah, my bad, I don't think filesystems do that |
| 17:05:02 | redhot | copper, huh this is expensive and genuine SanDisk UltraSDHC |
| 17:05:11 | copper | redhot: where did you buy it? |
| 17:05:19 | redhot | huh, ebay))) |
| 17:05:31 | redhot | but Sandisk confirms it's genuine |
| 17:05:35 | redhot | by S/N |
| 17:05:50 | copper | can't the S/N be simply copied (faked)? |
| 17:06:09 | copper | the faker buys a genuine card, copies the S/N, done |
| 17:06:36 | redhot | copper: not in this case, I've checked a lot of things and it sands like Genuine |
| 17:06:44 | redhot | I've bought a fake one before :) |
| 17:06:51 | redhot | So I could compare |
| 17:06:54 | redhot | :D |
| 17:06:57 | copper | well I bought a seemingly "genuine" transcend card that gave me problems right from the start |
| 17:07:07 | copper | except I bought it from a chinese hardware store |
| 17:07:31 | copper | I trust neither chinese stores nor eBay |
| 17:07:48 | redhot | copper: Yep, thanks guys! Seems like I'll contact Sandisk concerning this item again |
| 17:08:18 | copper | redhot: I bought a new SanDisk card from Amazon and my problems magically disappeared |
| 17:08:32 | copper | Just sayin'. |
| 17:09:08 | redhot | copper: Yep, I've also bought a microSD from Amazone and it works just well :) |
| 17:10:17 | copper | does your faulty card look like this? http://www.sandisk.com/assets/Product/microsd-sdsdqua-032g.jpg |
| 17:11:00 | redhot | Sure, it has qulity materials and printing |
| 17:12:51 | copper | redhot: why operating system do you use? |
| 17:14:09 | redhot | copper: Why? Because I dont like bare metal things without OS :) |
| 17:14:23 | redhot | Actually I used WinXp only to put files |
| 17:14:32 | redhot | Then used card in Clip+ only |
| 17:14:38 | copper | if you run Linux, I have a command that you can run to test the card's speed |
| 17:15:06 | redhot | yep, I know about dd, thanks. Speed is crappy too :) |
| 17:15:12 | copper | how crappy |
| 17:15:31 | redhot | Sandsik support says it's ok) It is ~6-8 MB/s in real world :) |
| 17:15:40 | copper | uh |
| 17:15:45 | copper | 6-8MB/s is not crappy |
| 17:15:49 | redhot | On benchmarks it is ALMOST 10 mb |
| 17:15:53 | redhot | that's class 10 |
| 17:16:14 | redhot | for class 4 or 6 it'll be ok |
| 17:17:17 | copper | they liz |
| 17:17:19 | copper | lie |
| 17:17:47 | copper | but given the speed you're reporting, I'd wager that the card is genuine but faulty |
| 17:17:49 | redhot | For comparison I've bought Transcent Ultra card (16GB) - it gives me real 10-12MB/s... |
| 17:17:58 | copper | microsdhc too? |
| 17:18:01 | redhot | yep |
| 17:18:04 | redhot | but 16GB |
| 17:19:30 | redhot | I thinks I will contact theirs Support. It is definitely faulty... Who know's maybe after weeks of emailing (LOL) they will replace it :) |
| 17:19:43 | copper | amazon would do it in a blink |
| 17:20:09 | copper | also, I'm not sure SanDisk will comply, given that you bought it on eBay |
| 17:20:34 | redhot | copper: SanDisk once replaced my broken Clip+ :) |
| 17:20:40 | copper | that's exactly the kind of thing you should NOT buy on eBay |
| 17:20:46 | redhot | So I've got a good opinion about them |
| 17:21:44 | redhot | "that's exactly the kind of thing you should NOT buy on eBay" - it's a kinda lottery, you are right |
| 17:22:16 | redhot | ok, guys thanks a lot for your help :-) |
| 17:23:39 | | Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 17:26:18 | redhot | Have a nice day everyone! ;-) |
| 17:26:50 | | Quit redhot () |
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| 18:30:39 | jokke | hi! anyone here playing lots of opus encoded music on his/her rockbox device? I'm curious about the battery consumption. |
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| 18:40:34 | | Join TeruFSX2 [0] (~TeruFSX@75-163-26-8.dlth.qwest.net) |
| 18:43:45 | TeruFSX2 | i was looking at the issue with ipods and chargers and i thought one possible option would be a timeout |
| 18:45:02 | TeruFSX2 | you would turn this option on, and if the other device looks like it's been resetting the bus for a second, you assume it's not actually a live device and back out of disk mode |
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| 19:22:09 | jlbiasini | pamaury: bluebrother: this one is for you... g#495 |
| 19:22:12 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #495 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/495 : [Manual] Document soft lock for FM by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/95/495/1) |
| 19:22:49 | jlbiasini | plain right copy/paste from WPS |
| 19:23:10 | jlbiasini | Still I suppose it makes sense adding |
| 19:23:46 | | Join wodz [0] (~wodz@89-75-41-78.dynamic.chello.pl) |
| 19:23:55 | wodz | pamaury: ping |
| 19:27:16 | pamaury | wodz: pong |
| 19:28:08 | copper | Tie. |
| 19:28:45 | wodz | pamaury: Could you run some code on your rk27xx dap? I created hacky patch to dump begining of the nand to the file. Maybe this will proof my idea why you only have system partition |
| 19:29:44 | pamaury | wodz: ok, send me a mail and i'll do it at home, I need to go back home now |
| 19:30:13 | wodz | ok |
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| 19:32:47 | wodz | pamaury: you should have test build + instruction in your mailbox |
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| 20:06:33 | amayer | is anyone else having problems with the unread forum posts page? it says i dont have any unread posts, but the homepage shows blue squares all over the place |
| 20:11:07 | jlbiasini | hi all: anybody know why all screen pictures are blank when I build the manual? |
| 20:12:01 | jlbiasini | it seems only the border of the image get displayed... |
| 20:12:55 | | Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) |
| 20:12:58 | jlbiasini | ha ok never mind it's the soft I was using that doesn't read the pdf correctly |
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| 21:42:37 | pamaury | wodz: see mailbox |
| 21:43:04 | wodz | pamaury |
| 21:43:14 | wodz | ok |
| 21:44:31 | wodz | pamaury: hmm, id block is set for 60MB system partition |
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| 22:12:29 | n1s | could someone who understands make review g#496 ? |
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| 22:13:39 | wodz | n1s: you basically call gevaerts :-) |
| 22:13:59 | gevaerts | Sorry, no. Variables are a part of make I don't get :) |
| 22:14:37 | gevaerts | Maybe Zagor? |
| 22:17:41 | n1s | hmm, in fact this might be doable with a much smaller change. The recursively expanded vars really are confusing |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).