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#rockbox log for 2013-07-23

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07:18:36[Saint]JdGordon_: it doesn't matter if a preloaded image and a viewport share the same ident, does it?
07:20:15JdGordon_id's are type specfic
07:20:32JdGordon_and I've read your paste, but not had time to digest it
07:20:41JdGordon_not sure when I'll have time+energy
07:21:26[Saint]Oh, yeah, sure. No obligation. Just wondered if you had a clue as to what might be going on.
07:21:43 Join tertu [0] (
07:21:46[Saint]I had a bried look, and I can't see anything obviously wrong in the scrolling code.
07:23:04JdGordon_has kugel done anything with his scrolling changes yet?
07:23:26JdGordon_its probably an empty line being cleared with the theme background colour then the line being drawn again
07:23:35kugelthe the scroll engine changes?
07:23:40kugelno, they're still on gerrit
07:23:44[Saint]There's a metric fucktonne of changes sitting in gerrit.
07:24:31[Saint]Which reminds me I should comment that I've tested the ones I've tested.
07:25:27[Saint]I could review one or two of them, but most of it is beyond me.
07:25:46[Saint]I think most of it is beyond most people that have had the time to look, nence the lack of review.
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07:26:28[Saint]JdGordon_: ...can an ident have spaces?
07:26:54[Saint]I don't need it to, just wondering.
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08:17:55JdGordon_[Saint]: yes
08:17:58JdGordon_it should work
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09:21:58copper[Saint]: is there something in my themes that is uncommon or should be done differently?
09:22:39copperi.e. did you spot an anomaly that might be causing the blinking bug?
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09:59:03JdGordon_copper: *all* themes do uncommon things :)
09:59:18coppermine are really simple
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10:08:17copperthis is the flyspray entry:
10:08:28copperI included a test theme to reproduce the bug
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11:42:45*copper only NOW realizes that he can build a simulator for the Classic natively on his linux system
12:04:41copperpamaury: does the Classic need to be updated specifically, to enable 0.5dB steps?
12:05:08copperI see that the Fuze+ has them now, but not the Classic, which also seems to use 0.5dB steps in the DAC chip
12:05:58 Quit krabador (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
12:06:08pamaurycopper: it needs to setup properly in the audio hw settings, grep for AUDIOHW_SETTING, I don't know which DAC the Classic uses
12:06:49copperalso, why are the values in the scrolling configuration in descending order on the Fuze+, and in ascending order on the Classic?
12:07:18coppersame with the volume settings
12:08:50copperI guess that's because of the scroll wheel paradigm
12:08:58copperclockwise = more
12:09:05coppercounterclockwise = less
12:09:30copperand I guess people feel like clockwise is a downwards motion, and vice-versa
12:09:52copperidk, seems weird
12:11:27pamaurycopper: for cs42l55, config is AUDIOHW_SETTING(VOLUME, "dB", 0, 1, -60, 12, -25), which means 1dB resolution, range -60dB to 12dB, default at -25dB
12:11:52pamaurydoes that match what you see ?
12:11:52copperthe spec sheet says "Master Volume Control (+12 to -102 dB in 0.5 dB steps)"
12:13:06copper-60 - +12 is what I see in Rockbox, yes
12:13:15copperbut it doesn't match the spec sheet of the DAC
12:14:01copper"Analog Volume Control (+12 to -55 dB in 1 dB steps)"
12:14:25copperwhy -60 in Rockbox though
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12:15:17copperironically, a 0.5dB resolution would be less annoying on iPods thanks to the scroll wheel, as opposed to the Fuze+ with regular buttons, which will make it slower to change the volume to the desired value
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12:15:52copperpamaury_: can you check the logs for what I just said and that you probably missed?
12:16:56 Quit lorenzo92 (Remote host closed the connection)
12:17:43pamaury_yes, indeed that could be improved, i don't know why -60 was chosen, would need to check who wrote the driver
12:19:05copperso, is the plan for the Fuze+ to make the volume buttons deal with 0.5dB steps, and just fix the theme code for volume levels?
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12:23:21pamaurydamn, unstable connection. The fuze+ already has 0.5dB steps
12:24:16pamaurythe plan is to fix all the code which is not aware of proper volume step, and maybe theme code if there is a bug in this too
12:24:42copperthere is
12:25:09copper%pv displays -180dB instead of -18dB, and the volume buttons use 0.1dB steps
12:25:30pamauryyes the volume button fix is on track
12:26:40copperused to be 1dB steps
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12:37:51*copper feels like everyone is stone-walling him on the 0.1dB step issue
12:38:54coppermore like, no-one cares and no-one wants to discuss it
12:39:17copper(er, which is what stonewalling means)
12:41:14pamauryI care for what I can fix but really I am not the one who did the change and I already have so many things to do. Everyone agrees when I say "this should be fixed" but no one helps
12:43:11copperI don't understand why the change broke the Fuze+ but not the Classic
12:43:26copperis it because you started adapting the Fuze+ for the change?
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12:45:39copperdoes every target need to be adapted, specifically?
12:46:24copperif that's the case, targets won't be homogenous until everyone changes their code for their targets
12:46:47copperfor such a big change, I think it went by very quietly
12:48:31ZincAlloywhat's the point of using 0.5dB resolution on the fuze+? 1dB is generally percieved to be a minimum change in volume, no?
12:49:09pamaurypreviously, it was using 0.5dB steps (at least in theory). Then jhMikes reworked much of the audio code which was getting horrible and decided to change the way audio settings were handled. At this time, he fixed all the audio config and reverted the Fuze+ to 1dB steps. No one noticed because incidently the code is not buggy for this precise configuration. Then I spotted this changed and went back to 0.5dB and uncover those bugs
12:49:31ZincAlloyI see
12:49:58copperI don't recall it having 0.5dB steps since I got the Fuze+
12:50:25pamaurybecause the code was buggy the other way around
12:51:42copperthat's just going to make volume control more annoying to use
12:52:08pamauryIf everyone is happy with 1dB steps, fine, i'll revert it for the fuze+ and let the buggy code buggy, since everyone seems to think the bad guy who broke audio
12:52:21copperI have no idea who did what
12:52:43copperbut fixing bugs and altering user experience are two different things
12:52:54ZincAlloyif it's buggy, keep it at 0.5dB
12:54:37ZincAlloyI was just wondering what the problem was :)
12:56:04copper<ZincAlloy> what's the point of using 0.5dB resolution on the fuze+?
12:57:20copperexcept maybe for what I said in the ML post: being able to change volume by 25% or 75% of 6dB (1.5dB and 4.5dB respectively)
12:57:37coppersomething like that
12:58:05copperwould 2dB and 5dB be audibly different? Not really.
12:58:30coppermaybe, MAYBE, it can be ABXed, in a very silent room with headphones and lots of concentration
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12:59:28copperI have another idea: make volume controls use 1dB steps, and provide 0.5dB steps in the volume configuration
12:59:33 Join rasher [0] (~rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher)
12:59:45copperfor the really anal users
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13:00:22copperor make it a user configuration setting
13:01:10copperI followed the iPod Classic Rockbox port thread on head-fi for a long time, and I don't think I saw anyone complain that 1dB wasn't a sharp enough resolution
13:01:23copperand gawd knows those people are die-hard audiophiles
13:01:59copperit's just ONE GUY on the forum who's completely anal and wanted 0.01 dB steps for his EQ
13:02:03coppernot 0.1
13:02:59copperalso, I find it very strange that this guy got what he wanted by posting on the forum, but *I* am asked to register to all kinds of things and provide patches, etc…
13:03:42copperwhereas other sensible feature requests are heavily resisted
13:04:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:08:42Kohlrabi<copper> would 2dB and 5dB be audibly different? Not really. | Should be ABXable
13:08:50KohlrabiYou mean, a differenc eof 3dB?
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13:10:56ZincAlloyif 1dB is "generally" percieved as a minimum audible difference, 2dB and 5dB steps are very audible.
13:12:24ZincAlloy1dB steps is a great resolution for an audio player.
13:12:58copperKohlrabi: 2dB vs 1.5db, and 5dB vs 4.5dB
13:13:30KohlrabiSo, 0.5dB?
13:13:34KohlrabiGood luck, then
13:13:39coppermy point exactly
13:14:15coppermy point being, "4.5dB" is kinda neat, but doesn't really make an audible difference
13:15:53copperwe're talking about playback here
13:15:59coppernot fine-tuning a recording
13:16:15ZincAlloyI'm pretty sure 0.5dB differences can be percieved by trained ears, but this is not a situation where it matters
13:17:05copperand I wouldn't mind if it didn't affect basic functionality and usability
13:17:28copperwith a scroll wheel or a volume pot, it doesn't matter
13:17:42copperwith simple buttons, it does
13:18:28copperthough even with the iPod scroll wheel, people might find the increased resolution somewhat confusing
13:18:59ZincAlloythey don't need it. 1dB steps are fine enough.
13:20:40copper<[Saint]> this started it, iirc:,42765.0/wap2.html
13:21:05copper"AWESOME! well in that case making two decimal increments would be even better.. ex. .5, .45, .4, .35, .3, etc.... down to .05"
13:21:19copperI misspoke, he only asked for 0.05dB steps, not 0.01
13:21:21copperstill crazy.
13:24:32KohlrabiSo, saratoga pointed out that out, too
13:24:37KohlrabiStill it got pushed?
13:25:21copperit got pushed without any discussion about it
13:26:19copperand I've been directed at multiple venues where I'm supposed to make my case
13:30:13copperthe Clip+ doesn't seem to be affected either, presently
13:31:34copperthis seems to confirm my intuition that every single target needs to be updated
13:35:24copperKohlrabi: it got pushed BEFORE saratoga noticed, and commented on it
13:35:43copperhe's quoting the commit log
13:35:49KohlrabiIt's not completely impossible to revert
13:35:59copperI'm sure it's not
13:36:06copperbut no-one seems interested
13:36:15Kohlrabihe can do it himself?
13:36:19coppermaybe it's the summer heat.
13:36:36KohlrabiThere seems to be no other reasoning than the guy whining
13:36:45copperreverting it would involve reverting the work of two people or more
13:37:11copperwhich they might not happy about
13:37:32KohlrabiI mean: He can talk to the relevant people and do it himself
13:37:41KohlrabiOr he can become Linus :D
13:37:45copperjhMikes, pamaury, JdGordon, [Saint]
13:38:23copperso, more like 3 or 4
13:38:48KohlrabiWas that commit a hodgepodge of multiple commits?
13:38:55copperit's not just one commit
13:40:54copperit's an entire shift towards using 0.1dB steps internally, to satisfy all hardware configurations (if I understand correctly)
13:41:13copperin addition to that, changing the user interface
13:41:24KohlrabiI thought you were referring to the EQ changes
13:41:32copperEQ and volume
13:41:41copperthe EQ thing is just one commit
13:42:58pamauryI'm going to revert the fuze+ change, can't do anymore
13:43:05copperand I suspect the EQ is something that users change a lot less than playback volume
13:43:46copperpamaury: before reverting, it would be nice to have a formal discussion about it with everyone who has any authority over that kind of change
13:44:16copperand make sure that while you're doing one thing, someone else isn't doing the opposite with code that affects one or multiple targets
13:44:30KohlrabiSo, internally rb uses 0.1dB?
13:44:39copperthe main problem here, from the beginning, is the absence of any communication
13:44:42KohlrabiThat doesn't mean the UI or drivers need to
13:45:14KohlrabiNow I seem to get it
13:45:15pamauryit's more complicated than that
13:45:22Kohlrabior not :)
13:45:59gevaertsKohlrabi: yes. As far as I can see there are (at least) two issues here: (a) a transition to 0.1dB that's not fully finished yet (or just a bit buggy), and (b) the contentious commit about the EQ
13:46:35pamauryif I understand correctly, internally, rockbox uses x db resolution, where x=10^(-prec), here prec is specified by the target configuration. If you set prec to 1, that's 0.1dB, if you set it to 0, that's 1dB
13:47:06pamaurythat was the case even before the change
13:48:23pamauryand even "internally" doesn't mean much, not all places of the code work this way I think
13:51:02pamauryin my opinion the change should just have been invisible to users but it happened that it was not
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14:01:47copperpamaury: changing volume / EQ steps in the user interface is obviously visible to the user
14:02:44copperas far as volume control is concerned, is there a consensus that it should strictly reflect the capabilities of the hardware?
14:02:51copperThat's a separate question.
14:03:07copperthat's solely a question of usability
14:03:36copperthe EQ question is also a question of usability
14:04:08copperactually I'm only concerned about usability (if that wasn't clear)
14:05:15coppermoreover, there seems to be a chasm between the EQ, which uses 0.1dB steps now, and volume control, which uses 0.5dB steps on compatible hardware (only the Fuze+ so far?)
14:09:03coppernot counting devices that can only deal with 1dB steps in hardware
14:09:22copperso we end up with three different values
14:09:56copperI think [Saint] said something about some devices supporting 0.2dB steps, too
14:11:13copper2013/07/21 12:45:18 UTC <[Saint]> copper: iirc the argument for that was that some DACs can do .2dB increments, so .1db increments means no one gets short changed (or feels that way).
14:11:58copperthe question is, does a 0.2dB step make sense at all to begin with, even if the hardware is capable of it?
14:13:06copperDo we want to go "large" by enabling all hardware capabilities, or unify Rockbox over common usability?
14:13:20coppers/we/you guys/
14:14:06copperthere's a difference between following hardware specs, just because, and making decisions affecting usability
14:14:21ZincAlloyas I said earlier: 1db steps are a good resolution for a volume control
14:14:27copperI agree
14:15:04copperand I wouldn't fight 0.5dB steps for the EQ
14:15:08ZincAlloysmaller steps for the eq might make sense.
14:15:12ZincAlloysounds good to me
14:15:33copperbut 0.1dB makes it really slooooooow
14:15:58ZincAlloyyeah. and digital eqs sound like they're not doing all that much, anyway
14:16:02copperso you keep pressing the button, you overshoot, you go back, you overshoot again, then you use tiny presses to reach the value that you wanted
14:16:17ZincAlloylet me check this on a target..
14:19:04ZincAlloyeq steps seem to be 1db on the clip zip
14:20:16copperit's 0.1dB on the Clip+
14:20:49copperhmmm, did you update your build? I don't know why it wouldn't be enabled on the Clip Zip…
14:21:05copperit's dog slow
14:21:09ZincAlloyI'm on 3.13
14:21:32copperget git
14:21:41copperIs there a list of mappings for the Clip+ sim?
14:22:14ZincAlloy1db steps are rather useable..
14:23:22ZincAlloyI wouldn't use smaller steps
14:23:59copperthe rockbox forum post is the only complaint about it that I've ever seen
14:24:12copperand the guy is obviously anal about it
14:24:24ZincAlloyguess some people might like it to eq their headphones to be perfectly flat
14:24:54copperand you think that their means of measurement of the headphones is down to 0.1dB?
14:25:06copperprecise within 0.1dB*
14:25:32ZincAlloycould be. but I don't think many people would do that anyway.
14:25:33copperand again, does it make an audible difference?
14:26:02ZincAlloyalso I don't see the point. its only natural that different phones sound different
14:27:07copperI don't even see the point of making a 1dB change in the EQ, but it doesn't adversely affect its usability
14:28:06ZincAlloyit's quite useable with 1dB steps. 2db can make quite a pronounced difference, depending on the music
14:28:31copperyeah, I would understand if people bitched about 3dB steps
14:28:56ZincAlloyalso depends on the other settings
14:32:29ZincAlloy1dB steps allow one to make fairly subtle adjustments
14:33:19ZincAlloypeople are not supposed to remaster their music on the player, anyway.
14:35:38copperit makes sense to allow them to add flavor
14:35:48*copper wants his bass-boost
14:35:50ZincAlloythey need to feel that the eq is doing something, but I think at the same time fairly sublte adjustments should be possible as well. 1dB steps are fine
14:36:19coppernot to accuse [Saint], but I think he made the change mostly because it was an "easy fix"
14:36:48coppertwo characters to change on two lines in two files
14:38:05copperI'm unclear as to why I'm required to bitch about it in multiple places, after the anal retentive audiophool got what he wanted with a simple forum post
14:38:38copperI can't even just upload the simple patch that reverts it, on gerrit
14:39:00copperI'm supposed to set up my git so that I can actually contribute code (I'm unclear how)
14:40:02copperthat's after several rockbox devs have pointed out that the complexity of git is probably what turned off a lot of contributors
14:40:44copperthen I'm asked to subscribe to the ML and reply to the relevant thread, and then I'm asked to post it again in a new thread
14:41:05copperand file a bug report
14:41:07copperIT'S NOT A BUG
14:42:56copperAccounts needed to contribute to Rockbox: Wiki account, forum account, mailing list account, OpenID account, gerrit account, flyspray account
14:42:58 Join amayer [0] (
14:43:01copperdid I forget one?
14:43:10*ZincAlloy is glad he can't code now :D
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14:50:42mortalispamaury: Did you test g364?
14:50:57pamaurynot yet
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15:04:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" down?
15:08:33copperor very slow
15:09:15copper503 Connect Failed
15:13:17copperback up
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16:32:58lorenzo92I would like to start working on the manual for ypr0: where to begin? :)
16:33:13lorenzo92since I know this is one of the step to move to "stable" port, right?
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17:54:32Strife89rasher: Ping.
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18:32:33rasherStrife89: pong?
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18:44:33Strife89rasher: A friend and I were wondering if you would add the resolution of the Nexus 4 - 768x1280 - to your Android builds. this point also for galaxy nexus :)
18:47:38copperthe two have different resolutions
18:48:08copperNexus 7 is 800x1280
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18:48:27coppergalaxy nexus is 720x1280
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18:48:43copperI read Nexus 7
18:49:15copperso the three have different resolutions
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21:43:22jn_hi! i've noticed that the ui simulator doesn't support lcd_set_invert_display. is that intentional?
21:44:37bluebrotherinvert and flip are features of the controller.
21:44:54bluebrotherso the sim could support them if the LCD simulation did support them.
21:45:02bluebrothermy guess is that nobody bothered to implement them.
21:45:18bluebrother(what's the use for that on the sim anyway?)
21:46:39jn_lamp.rock doesn't work on a simulated Sansa clip+
21:47:23bluebrotherthen don't simulate a clip+ :P
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22:11:47Strife89How does one set up the ANDROID_SDK_PATH and ANDROID_NDK_PATH variables (for compiling Android builds)?
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22:35:21gevaertsexport ANDROID_SDK_PATH=something
22:35:32gevaertsSame as any other shell variable :)
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22:49:13Strife89I get errors when trying to make apk.
22:52:33jn_bluebrother: ok, i've hacked up a little patch to support lcd inversion
22:53:08jn_it's probably totally non-partable, but it works for the sansa clip+ sim
22:53:22wodzjn_: show the code
22:53:37jn_wodz: sure
22:55:45jn_(the "Yep" line is unrelated)
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23:03:36wodzjn_: You should take care of HAVE_LCD_INVERT define. Not all targets support inversion and so simulator should not offer this for this targets
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23:14:44jn_wodz: i'll do that
23:19:55jn_judging from tools/configure, i'll also have to define lcd_set_inverted on maemo and pandora; i'm not sure about android and the supported samsung device
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