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#rockbox log for 2013-08-13

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02:42:44wowanameMay i ask why Rockbox is unsupported for sixth generation iPod classic?
03:04:23[Saint]It isn't "unsupported".
03:04:31[Saint]Its "unusable".
03:04:49[Saint]Which is merely a target classification, it doesn't actually mean its unusable.
03:05:23 Join bzed_ [0] (
03:05:39[Saint]It still needs a Rockbox bootloader and Rockbox Utility before it can be moved up to "unstable".
03:05:56[Saint]*Rockbox Utility installation support
03:06:08[Saint](there are several things about this that are non-trivial to implement)
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03:07:47wowaname[Saint]» thanks for the clarification
03:08:06wowanamei'm just looking around for something
03:08:17wowanamei already removed iTunes in favour of foobar
03:08:46wowanamei used foobar long before but had to get used to the foo_dop ipod sync extension
03:09:40[Saint]You can most certainly install ROckbox on this device (I use it myself), however, it requires a (rather bloated, compared to Rockbox's usual iPod bootloaders) third party tool cool emCORE.
03:09:52wowanameoh ok
03:09:56wowanamei'll look into that
03:10:04[Saint]There is also no diuual-boot support, and USB can be quite flakey on some machines.
03:10:16[Saint](detailed installation walkthrough)
03:10:37*[Saint] advises wowaname to use *nix for the installation if at all possible
03:10:50wowanamei can do that
03:11:12wowanamein fact i'm using vbox with crunchbang for xchat
03:11:48[Saint]Aha. Excellent. Just make sure to hand over control of the device to the virtual machine, and all should go smoothly.
03:12:20[Saint]Don't be afraid to speak up if you get into trouble. But, nothing can really go /horribly/ wrong.
03:12:35[Saint]There is absolutely no chance of bricking the device.
03:12:35wowanamei'll idle here if i do
03:12:44wowanameinb4 something deletes system32
03:12:49[Saint](which is what most peoiple seem to fear)
03:12:51wowanameon linux </irony>
03:13:03wowanameoh yeah i was wondering about that too
03:13:16wowanamethe possibility of bricking
03:13:19wowanamewell that's good
03:13:46wowanamelol i love how freenode always has 100+ users on channels but only a few are not idling
03:14:55[Saint]With the iPods, it is *exceedinly* hard to brick any of them prior to the Nano2G - and basically impossible to brick any of them post Nano2G.
03:15:18wowanamebecause: Apple just works (TM)
03:15:24[Saint]You'd need to go to an immense amount of effort to brick an iPod using Rockbox tools.
03:15:40[Saint]It is possible, but, you couldn;t do it accidentally.
03:16:50[Saint]With the Classic, the worst that can happen is you force it into DFU mode and then restore with iTunes.
03:17:29[Saint]But, yeah, that walkthrough should get you up and running.
03:18:16wowanamelol i hope to god that i dont need to reinstall that PoS iTunes
03:19:16[Saint]Once you have completed the installation, it is advisable to update the Rockbox image by extracting to the root of the device.
03:20:09[Saint]However - this may cause some issues with USB instability, or it may not.
03:20:42wowanamewhat trouble would one run into
03:20:52wowanamenot detecting the device?
03:21:30[Saint]Correct. Failure to mount, or, mounting after a huge length of time and then botching transfer.
03:21:56[Saint]Fortunately there is a fallback image embedded within emCORE itself that shouldn't have any issue with USB.
03:22:20[Saint]So, it is still possible to use the device, albeit a little incomvenient.
03:22:41[Saint]But, lets not worry about this until the install is finished and we know if you have troubles or not. :)
03:23:12wowanamei'm just reading through before i do anything
03:23:31[Saint]Just make sure to avoid USB3 ports. For <some_unknown_reason> this seems to trigger a whole bunch of problems.
03:24:07wowanameeven though i do have linux and C: mounts automatically...
03:24:17wowanamelol usb3.0
03:24:29wowanamethis laptop's a bit old for even having any of those ports
03:25:42TheSevenwowaname: itunes can recover >99% of the possible screwed up states by itself, so going back is usually easy
03:26:06wowanameitunes IS a screwed up state imo
03:26:06wowanamebut if i have to i will install it
03:26:21TheSevenyes, but it indeed turns out to be good at fixing up borked ipods, but only nano3g and classic upward
03:26:43[Saint]The only other thing I can think of to mention is that (because of the port's current classification as "unusable"), there is no manual available for the device, but you can substitute the iPod Video manual:
03:26:50TheSevenyou can also recover things without itunes if you want to deal with some command line tools
03:26:58TheSevenwe can fully replicate what itunes does during recovery
03:27:13wowanameTheSeven» that's great
03:27:14[Saint]The only things I can think of that do not apply are: dual-boot, USB HID, FM, and recording.
03:27:37TheSevenand in fact all unrecoverable issues that I've seen so far on classics, both at users and developers, were one of two things: old hard drives failing or water damage
03:27:44wowanamedualbooting on an iPod... i know it has a use but it's kinda funny
03:28:18[Saint]Its useful for devices that only offer iPod connectivity.
03:28:30wowanameo yeah
03:28:38[Saint]car head units, some stereos, docks, etc.
03:29:05[Saint]Oh, also, themes:
03:29:18[Saint](Classic has the same physical dimensions as the iPod Video)
03:29:43 Join amayer [0] (
03:30:00wowanameoh my god that is great, custom tag display
03:30:22wowanamei was pretty sure it would have it
03:30:40[Saint]fully customizable skin engine FTW. :)
03:31:21wowanameare themes native or is it a scripting language
03:31:42[Saint]Its a unique language.
03:31:51wowanamecompiled, i assume
03:31:59[Saint]No, no, plain text.
03:32:04wowanameoh awesome
03:32:20[Saint]The manual I linked above descibes the skin engine.
03:32:20amayerwowaname: download a theme and unzip it
03:32:42wowanameconfiguration files
03:33:02*[Saint] is "some form of Rockbox skin "expert"" ;)
03:33:19wowanames/skin //
03:34:14[Saint]Oh, no, no way - there are many facets of the core that may as well be magic as far as I'm concerned. :)
03:34:24wowanamelol but you are helpful
03:35:26wowanamebitmap fonts?
03:35:57wowanamei was just asking for clarification; i actually prefer bitmap fonts
03:37:17[Saint]There's actually support for anti-aliased fonts now too, has been for some time, but I'm not sure the manual mentions this.
03:37:51wowanamebut the fonts are in the theme archives?
03:37:52[Saint]However, you can't just drop in any old .ttf, fonts need to be converted to our .fnt format.
03:38:59[Saint]Some themes include their own fonts, if said fonts are not contained within our font pack.
03:39:13[Saint]Otherwise, the shipped binaries would be *massive*.
03:39:18wowanamethe Windows FNT or a custom format
03:40:39[Saint]Hmmmm. I'm not sure about that, to be honest. My guess would be that it just so happens to share the extension.
03:40:54wowanamei'll look at the wiki for that
03:42:09[Saint]you'd need to compile convbdf from our sources to convert your own fonts from a bdf file.
03:42:28[Saint]Or, convttf to convert your own antialiased fonts from a ttf file.
03:43:14[Saint]I made an antialiased font pack a while ago, linked here:
03:43:20wowanameif anything i'd use this font:‎
03:43:55wowanameone of my favourite fonts
03:44:59[Saint]that domain is useless.
03:45:08[Saint]otherwise I'd whip up a font for you right now.
03:45:15wowanameholy shit
03:45:16wowanameit is
03:45:24wowanamecurse you google
03:45:41wowanamewhere the hell was it
03:45:57wowanamehmm the site must have went down
03:49:08wowanamewait would a reflash wipe all data off the iPod
03:49:16[Saint]It looks quite similar to GNU Unifont, which I have an antialiased version thereof in my font pack in various sizes.
03:49:36[Saint]Yes. Installing Rockbox on the Classic will wipe all user data.
03:49:50wowanamei also love Fixedsys Excelsior
03:50:03[Saint]Backup any files you need to before installation.
03:50:21wowanamei dont need to back anything up, just take the time to resync everything
03:50:33wowanamei'll mess with it tomorrow
03:51:39wowanameif i were to use EmCORE for Win7, would there be stability issues, or just other crap to deal with
03:52:00TheSevenit's somewhat likely that you might have trouble transferring files on windows
03:52:17TheSevenbut if that happens, you should be able to reboot the ipod into the fallback rockbox version, which should work fine
03:52:21wowanamepermanently or just hit and miss
03:52:24wowanameoh ok
03:52:57[Saint]The installation is the primary source of fuckaroundery.
03:53:36[Saint]The install on *nix is so smooth its not even funny when compared to the Windows iTunes/non-iTunes installation.
03:54:20*TheSeven blames that on microsoft not having any sane userspace USB access interface
03:54:25wowanameyeah windows isnt good with developer shit
03:54:40TheSeveneverything needs a kernel driver on windows, and those drivers need to be signed by microsoft
03:54:56wowanamewindows' mounting system fails. drive letters. seriously
03:55:22wowanameok i'll use linux for it lol
03:55:47TheSevenif you're on 64bit windows and need to run a custom kernel mode driver, you have to apply a bootloader hack :)
03:55:58wowanameoh wow
03:56:37TheSevenmicrosoft tried to solve part of the mess by providing their own userspace USB api driver, but that still needs to be installed for a particular device, competing with itunes' driver, which is just a huge mess
03:56:50[Saint]TheSeven is the evil genius that made all this possible.
03:56:58[Saint]The Classic port is his baby.
03:57:03wowanamety TheSeven
03:57:31TheSeventhe classic port was mostly trivial after figuring out the nano2g one :)
03:58:12TheSevenhow long did it take us? 2 weeks after I received the donated classic until we had music playback, or something like that?
03:58:18TheSevenand slightly longer on ce-ata devices of course...
03:58:41TheSeventhe nano was more like half a year :)
04:00:38[Saint]Longer, iirc.
04:02:45TheSevenI'm only counting it from when we had code execution on the device
04:03:02TheSevenif you include the battle against apple's code signing it was ~3 years IIRC
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04:21:44[Saint]Aha. Right.
04:25:17wowaname[Saint]» Unifont's quite different from Proggy
04:25:39[Saint]Looks fairly similar to me.
04:25:42*[Saint] shrugs
04:25:45wowanameit's taller
04:26:03wowanamebut it's unicode
04:26:08wowanamethat is good
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04:26:56wowanamehex format sounds interesting
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05:55:05stormdragon2976I am having trouble generating the voice file with espeak. It says everything has completed successfully, but when I press ok and disconnect the player it still speaks with flite. I'm using Arch Linux. What am I doing wrong?
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06:52:52*[Saint] has a Rockbox build client unattended network installer for Raspberry Pi working
06:53:24[Saint]I need to clean it up a bit though.
06:53:36[Saint]I don't imagine there is going to be a huge market for this. :)
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06:54:06[Saint]Its made possible by hifi's excellent raspbian-ua-netinst
07:00:27[Saint]Its kinda ugly at the moment though - I need to figure out a clean way of setting up a new user with a unique username.
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09:40:09 Part stormdragon2976 ("With a flash lof lightning and a blast of air from massive wings the storm dragon takes flight and vanishes into the fading twilight.")
09:51:54copperis there a better way of offering the same theme in different colors, than to just submit each one as a separate and appropriately named theme?
09:53:03coppera meta-theme archive with 5 different colors would make a somewhat large zip
09:53:26copperalso I assume that kind of practice is frowned upon
09:54:01coppereach backdrop is 228 KiB
09:56:42copperugh, well, they're ALWAYS 228 KiB, being uncompressed…
09:58:08copperthe problem with distributing separate themes is that any time I update the theme, I'm gonna have to upload each one of them separately, and that would be a huge pain in the ass
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11:31:53copperer, the zip file is still very small
11:31:58copperbmp compresses well
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11:47:02copper100 KiB
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11:53:03wodzpamaury: ping
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12:23:44*bertrik is thinking a bit about the "cpu-noise" problems on the clip+ that apparently go away when enabling high-speed mode in the sd card
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12:33:36bertrikstill have to figure out the exact conditions under which it happens
12:35:11wodzbertrik: Are you able to reproduce 'cpu noise'?
12:36:02bertrikthere's a fix for it, but it introduces a bug (not waiting for card response) and I'd rather not "fix" before knowing the root cause
12:36:13wodzthats my point
12:37:39bertrikI don't really know what happens when you tell an sd card / sd card controller to use high-speed mode (50 MHz instead of 25 MHz)
12:38:24bertrikperhaps the sd card changes to a stronger drive strength, but I can't see how that reduces interference
12:39:23bertrikwe're not actually changing the transfer speed on the clip+
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12:42:27copperpamaury: btw, were you able to come up with anything to increase the speed of the sd card reader?
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13:06:20copperoh for fuck's sake
13:06:59copperthe theme uploader refuses my archive because it contains several variants of the same theme
13:08:55coppercome on, do I *really* have to upload 6 individual themes? ;-(
13:23:24pamaurywodz: pong
13:23:27pamaurycopper: not yet
13:25:04wodzpamaury: Have you seen hwstub rk27xx port pastie? Beware this code does not work.
13:25:21pamauryyes, I haven't fixed/looked it yet
13:29:46wodzpamaury: according to my tests the driver doesn't see (mostly) SETUP packets. From time to time it gets SETUP packet but I can't spot any pattern why it is so.
13:30:21pamaurycpu too slow ?
13:30:52wodzdunno. It is running at 200MHz so it should be capable to at least record the event
13:31:16bertrikmaybe you're not getting interrupts for EP0, or perhaps interrupts are getting cleared accidentally?
13:31:26wodzmaybe usb core setup sequence is incorrect
13:31:34wodzbertrik: this code works in polled mode
13:31:41wodzwith irqs turned off
13:33:48pamaurycache disabled
13:34:21wodzpamaury: is it a question or a statement
13:38:06copperall 6 themes uploaded, separately
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14:13:29speckmadeCan somebody help me to blindly enable voiced menus on my sansa clip?
14:13:37speckmadeI smashed my display
14:14:00speckmadeapart from that my device works just fine...
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14:15:00speckmadehow can I configure voiced menus by editing the config file?
14:15:09coppermeh, buy a new one
14:15:30speckmadeyeah - I may do that eventually... :-/
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14:26:49***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:29:47bertrikoh, I thought that voice menu would be enabled automatically, if the voiced strings are present on the device
14:35:26speckmadeI downgraded to 3.13 stable in order to be able to install voice files via Rockbox installer
14:36:48speckmadethen I installed the voice file
14:37:20speckmadenow there's the file "english.voice" under /.rockbox/langs
14:37:39speckmadenow it doesn't yet seem to speak to me
14:38:22speckmadethen I also tried changing the menu language back to english
14:38:32speckmadevia config file
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15:05:50pixelmaspeckmade: should be possible by editing config.cfg in .rockbox. The line should read "lang: /.rockbox/langs/english.lng" or possibly "lang: -"
15:10:54pixelmaor it could just be deleted, maybe as well as any line that lists a setting with "talk" in case you disabled something there. They will only be present in config.cfg if the setting differs from the default (which is "on" for anything talk related)
15:28:41pamaurycopper: I know why the sd read/write speed is capped
15:30:12pamaurywith the current clock rate, there is no way you can transfer at more than ~6MB/s
15:30:48pamauryI'll see what is needed to clock higher
15:31:06pamaurynote that it doesn't apply to the internal storage
15:31:28amayerpamaury: will something like this limit usb speeds too?
15:32:21amayerok :)
15:32:23pamauryI mean you cannot transfer through usb than 6MB/s obviously
15:32:43pamaurybut usb itself has no such limit
15:33:05amayeroh ok
15:33:39pamauryI have a card which does 14MB on my computer and 7MB/s on rockbox so we have room for improvement ^^
15:36:26pamaurycopper: have you tried in OF ?
15:37:01copperI don't remember actually
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15:38:54copperchecking the logs, looks like I didn't
15:39:00pamaurythe thing is that as far as I know, the imx233 cannot change the pin voltage of the sd card data lines and you cannot go higher than 25MHz with 3.3V signalling
15:39:25pamauryso maybe we are actually limited to 6MB/s because of this but it's worth checking if the OF is limited too
15:39:57pamauryMaybe someone who knows SD can confirm, gevaerts: who knows this ?
15:40:23bertrikI think you can still go high-speed, if the card supports it, at 3.3V
15:40:34bertrik50 MHz instead of 25 MHz
15:41:23pamaurythe spec says no and I've tried: switched to HS and 48MHz clock: doesn't work
15:41:35pamaurymaybe something else is wrong though
15:41:56pamauryoh no, you're right
15:42:07pamauryHS is 50MHz, so it should work :-/
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16:53:56pamaurydamn, CSD indicates high speed but setting clock to 50MHz plain doesn't work
16:59:02 Part LinusN
17:02:20pamauryah that's interesting, clocking at 40MHz works and gives ~10MB/s now
17:04:29pamaurybut it's unsable
17:04:35pamaury*unstable :-/
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17:06:48pamauryah increasing drive strength helps
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17:09:38pamaurynice I can now reach 15MB/s internal, it's still only 11MB/s on usb
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17:14:11[Saint]pacman -Syu sudo lxde upower gamin polkit-gnome gvfs
17:14:17[Saint]errrrr, fuck.
17:17:24[Saint]pacman -Syu sudo lxde upower gamin polkit-gnome gvfs gvfs-smb gvfs-afb
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17:21:01bertrikpamaury: increase drive strength on the host side, I suppose?
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17:27:27pamauryI think I need to use CMD23 to have optimum performance but it's optional on sd, so more code to handle both
17:27:37pamaurywe need a generic SD/MMC driver !!!
17:30:07bertrikwe could start with at least using the same function names in the various sd drivers for send_cmd etc.
17:31:31bertrikI'm not completely sure if I understand the history of some of the usb drivers, but IIRC trying to unify broke something that is currently still broken
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17:35:50copperhopefully everyone will find a color that they like
17:36:51pamaurybertrik: not really, we tried to unify to one broken driver with an unstable one and this resulted in a brokunstable one
17:37:12pamaury*-to, actually I wasn't the one to do it
17:37:37pamauryit's not the same though: our sd driver really have a lot of duplicate, potentially buggy code
17:39:47bertrikpamaury: something like an generic upper level, which does init/read/write, and a lower device-specific which implements init/send_cmd/transfer_block ?
17:41:49pamauryyes exactky
17:42:01pamaurywe want to factor the read/write/init card
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17:42:16pamauryand provide hook for platform specific things like bank switching, of course
17:43:50wodzI should publish my draft probably.
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17:47:01bertrikI would very much like to improve the individual drivers first, not waiting for the "ultimate generic solution"
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17:47:34pamauryas you wish, but I think it's better to have a generic driver and slowly move the drivers to it, ie it would be optional
17:48:00pamauryit would implement all the sd_* part and rely on some sd_drv_* functions, this way you are not obliged to use it
17:48:07wodzbertrik: but you know some problems are in common code like the last bug in imx sd driver
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17:49:09pamauryand I would like to merge sd and mmc too
17:49:31pamauryit shouldn't be too hard since mmc is hardly used: on imx233 it's like sd and there the ondio I think
17:50:15wodzmaybe cowon d2 - it has full size sd/mmc slot
17:50:29bertrikpamaury: that way of slowly integrating more drivers into the generic one, sound like a good idea
17:50:37pamauryI doubt the current driver support mmc though
17:50:46pamaurybertrik: yes, otherwise we will break everything at once :)
17:50:57bertrikbut I mean that it shouldn't stop us from fixing bugs in the current sd drivers
17:51:10bertrikwodz: what was the last bug in the imx sd driver?
17:51:54pamaurythe sd switch function which didn't read the 64 bytes
17:53:26bertrikah, yes, this bug is also in the AMSv1 driver (not in AMSv2 though)
17:56:23bertrikIIRC, on AMSv1, we are being silly by doing all SD transfers in 1-bit SD mode. Switching to 4-bit mode would give a 4x speedup, now we try to improve performance by going high-speed which gives only 2x speedup and only for cards that support it
17:57:07bertrikthe code has a comment around and #if 0'ed part of the code that switches to 4-bit mode /* FIXME : it seems that reading fails on some models */
17:58:14bertrikI'd like to enable the 4-bit mode again. I think the failing reads occurred before another cleanup I did 2 years ago.
17:58:34 Quit DexterLB (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish)
17:59:11bertrikIn several places, the sd driver code did not wait for the response, but just did a delay. I think the problems that this caused were incorrectly blamed on the 4-bit mode. The 4-bit mode probably changed the timing.
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18:03:25bertrikare we releasing in september?
18:03:37wodzbertrik: enable 4-bit and wait for complaints :-)
18:04:13bertrikwodz: yeah, that was roughly my plan :) unless we're close to release
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19:14:15wodzpamaury, bertrik: <- this is very preliminary draft of sd refactoring. function names are adhoc but general idea can be seen.
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