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#rockbox log for 2013-08-14

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02:20:23wowaname[Saint]» yesterday when i said the fonts werent similar, i was referring to ProggyTiny
02:20:41wowanamei guess the full-size looks similar to unifont
02:21:22wowanameoh nice you have a bouncer lol
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03:40:59wowanamejust to make sure: is it easy to revert to the official firmware if i run into problems for the ipod classic 160gb?
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04:50:33wowanameis ANYBODY not idle
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04:59:41wowanameLow battery runtime, and occasional audio lockups are well known issues...if you'd read the release info you should be aware of this.
05:00:06wowaname:| not very reassuring
05:00:24wowanameoh let me read the whole post before i bitch :|
05:00:58wowanamekk nvm :p
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06:49:07kugel_TheSeven: libusb works on windows, a number of open source tools use it
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07:45:28[Saint]Grrrr...can someone nuke my reply at, please?
07:45:38[Saint]Forum didn't warn me saratoga already posted.
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08:49:09[Saint]TheSeven: copper: (logs) - Have either of you noticed that the Classic makes you wait several seconds until the disc is no longer being accessed after boot before you can use the UI?
08:49:49[Saint]My Color (the one with an HDD), doesn't suffer the same fate, and has a much slower disc.
08:50:31[Saint]I reverted my 'revert-UI-boost' changes, just to make sure I wasn't causing the UI hang at boot, and I'm not.
08:50:41[Saint]Apparently its something I've only just noticed?
08:52:30[Saint]Oh - yay, now I try reproduce it on-demand it doesn't do it :)
08:53:34[Saint]It seems to be like the scroll wheel "sticks" or lags, until the initial I/O is done, then it suddenly catches up. It happens about 50% of the time.
08:55:12[Saint]I just checked - my other Classics do it too. Hum.
08:55:18*[Saint] shrugs
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09:38:30copper[Saint]: sometimes I wonder if the Classic feels really slow just because I'm used to the Fuze+ flash memory
09:39:00copperalso, is it common for 40 year olds to use a really large font in Rockbox?
09:39:05copper(and probably elsewhere, too)
09:41:40copperI've been accused of being half-deaf, but some of you old farts are half-blind!
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11:14:48wodzTheSeven: ping
11:15:52bertrikgood morning
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11:40:50Torneforum spammer:;u=51067
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11:49:54[Saint]Hey, cool - some less subtle spam for a change.
11:50:04[Saint]And multiple hits.
11:50:31[Saint]Not the odd sneaky copypasta single-post drivebys we usually seem to get coming through.
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12:09:49evilnickThis guy needs to be banned from the forums for spamming but I can't figure out how to do that myself (if I have the rights to do this):;u=51067
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13:14:35TheSevenwodz: pong
13:15:45TheSevenkugel: libusb needs to be signed in order to work on 64bit windows, and all signed versions that I found so far are buggy in some way. I think the way to go is libusb wrapping winusb...
13:16:15wodzTheSeven: Have you noticed that when hiting brakepoint IDA reads some memory regions not specified in mem segments (remote gdb debugging)?
13:16:28TheSeven[Saint]: no, I haven't noticed that, however I haven't really used my classic in years...
13:17:35TheSevencould be database/dircache still building up, and the UI lagging because it needs to load font chars and has to compete for disk access
13:18:18TheSevenwodz: yes, I've seen that trigger a bunch of data aborts, but it seems to be harmless (so far)
13:18:58wodzTheSeven: unless you run code in emulator with incomplete regs coverage :-)
13:19:34wodzTheSeven: this is potentially harmful as it reads io mem region which can clean flags in random regs
13:20:22TheSeventhe reads seemed to always hit the same addresses for me
13:20:27TheSevensome junk like 0xdddddddd etc.
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13:21:50wodzTheSeven: Not the case here unfortunately. The hits are for 0x2xxxxxxx addresses and 0x180e80xx. The letter is in nand controller memspace on rk27xx
13:22:32TheSevenis by any chance a CPU register pointing to those addresses?
13:22:45wodzmoreover mem is read in weird 253bytes chunk size
13:22:58TheSevenida likes to misinterpret data as pointers
13:25:41wodzhmm could be
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13:30:03pamauryida is very aggressive, it always try to interpret data as pointers
13:30:46bertrikAlexP: do you know of any plans for a release soonish?
13:31:41TheSevenwodz, pamaury: you can configure somewhere what the lower and upper bounds for values to be considered pointers are
13:37:06pamauryyes but that's not very useful in practice: if you have code at address 0 then it will frequently misinterpret small values for pointers
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14:40:30copperthe reason graphical volume indicators are useless: they're too small to provide any kind of accuracy, and the range from +12dB to -60dB is way too large
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14:41:18copperthe usable range of volume is very small, and varies wildly depending on the target, the headphones used, and the hearing of the user
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14:44:51[Saint]not all targets have the same range.
14:45:30[Saint]some top out at +6, and go down to -70ish or more iirc.
14:46:42[Saint]graphical volume indication isn't really supposed to be absolutely accurate, also.
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14:47:13[Saint]its an at a glance measure. it needn't offer extreme resolution.
14:48:27copperit can't even provide that
14:48:32copperfor the reasons above
14:48:54[Saint]its useful for displaying mute and line level states, which it can do trivially.
14:49:01[Saint]if the author is sane.
14:52:44[Saint]what you're forgetting is average Joe doesn't care a flying fuck about the dB value.
14:53:06copperWhat do you mean? Not everyone has OCD? ;)
14:53:28[Saint]they want to know if it'll clip, and have a representation of "the volume I like is about there on this thing".
14:58:56[Saint]a lot of themes will have a simple bar with N sections, and the user learns to remember "the volume I like is about yay far up the bar" .
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15:42:51amayercopper: the same can be said about the graphic progress bar which is implemented in almost every theme. they offer very little acuracy but are just a quick representation of where you are in the current track.
15:51:25copperthe progress bar is a lot more accurate, because it's 10 times larger, or more
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15:53:31copperwith the volume indicator, you have maybe 10-20 pixels to represent a range of 72dB or more, while the user will only use a range of about 12dB
15:54:35Kohlrabicopper: I don't evn look at the numbers, I just press "down" if it's too loud until it's no longer
15:54:55Kohlrabi"too loud" depends on environment, mood, time of day etc.
15:55:10copperI do look at the number, if only to avoid gradually increasing volume until I get permanent hearing damage
15:55:18copperI'm always tempted to increase volume just a bit
15:55:27Kohlrabiwhy tf should I (or anyone) care about the exact number, unless doing measurements for something
15:55:40copperbecause of what I just said?
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15:55:59KohlrabiWhat kind of levels are you using that you are near a setting which will create "permanent hearing damage"?
15:56:10copperI'm not near YET
15:56:29copperthe point is, if I don't look, I could reach damaging levels over the course of a year or whatever
15:57:06copperI want to force myself NOT to increase volume
15:57:07Kohlrabiyou can still look at the number instead of the bar if you're that OCD
15:57:47KohlrabiI never thought the volume indicator to be problematic
15:57:53copperit's not OCD if the graphical representation is so bloody small that I can't tell the difference in a 12dB range or more
15:58:10Kohlrabiit's not INTENDED to be used for exact control down to single dBs
15:58:50Zagorin my day we had an option to enable numeric volume indicator.
15:58:50copperthe theme code for representing volume can be arbitrary
15:58:55Zagorand get off my lawn!
15:58:58KohlrabiZagor: My theme has one
15:58:58Torneabout the only thing a graphical volume bar is useful for is to realise why pressing volume up doesn't make it any louder
15:59:09Torne"volume is at max" is about the only information it can usefully communicate
15:59:10copperso, I could set the range to the actual range that I use, but then that wouldn't work for other people
15:59:16Tornewell, volume is at max or not at max. ;)
16:00:35copperit also wouldn't work if I changed headphones, or plugged the DAP into a line-in
16:01:09Tornecopper: i think your problem here is you're expecting people to prefer things that are actually useful ;)
16:01:17Kohlrabiyou could create a theme with a lot of pixels for the volume
16:01:46Kohlrabifor example a snake which goes around the outer edges :P
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16:01:56copperTorne: meh, I'm only talking for myself
16:02:15copperKohlrabi: or an erection
16:03:20KohlrabidB == dimension (of) Boobs
16:03:48copperI could also display [ OVERDRIVE ]
16:03:59copper[ YOU'VE GONE DEAF, MATE ]
16:04:33coppervolume is probably the most variable metric
16:05:54copperbattery level is more or less similarly problematic
16:06:08copperhaving 100%, 75%, 50%, 25% indicators is nice
16:06:11fs-bluebotGerrit review #100 at : IAP rework patch 8: Revert to static buffers by Ralf Ertzinger (changes/00/100/1)
16:06:24copperbut what happens below 25%? You don't know if you have 4 hours left, or 5 minutes
16:07:18copperI guess you could add colors for extra precision
16:07:47copperbut colors are also problematic when the background isn't neutral (black or white)
16:07:56copperwell, any shade of gray
16:08:27copperthat's why I've never bothered with graphical volume and battery indicators
16:08:44copperthey're more or less useless, and numbers are a lot more useful
16:09:37copperunless I could come up with a design that allows for horizontal or vertical bars that would take up the entire width or height
16:09:47Tornebattery you *could* represent reasonably if you were willing to have a log scale. :)
16:10:02Tornebut normal human beings would just misinterpret that 100% of the time
16:15:41amayerhas anyone ever gotten IAP to work on iClassic?
16:16:10amayerthe last time i tried it looked like only stable devices had it enabled
16:20:59Tornei don't think it's anything to dow ith stable or not
16:21:06TorneIAP depends on us having a serial driver for the accessory serial port
16:21:24Torneand the classic's hardware is different, so do we even have a driver for that?
16:28:03amayer*shrugs* TheSeven do you know if we have a serial driver for the iClassic?
16:36:27TheSevenamayer: yes, we do
16:36:36TheSevennot sure if we have one in rockbox, but emcore has one
16:36:45TheSevenand it's mostly trivial
16:37:18TheSeventhe reason why we don't have IAP is because the IAP highlevel logic is weirdly intertwined with the portalplayer serial port driver
16:37:33TheSevenor at least it used to be back when I considered implementing it
16:37:48TheSevenbertrik attempted to clean up that mess at some point, but I'm not sure if that project was ever finished
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17:05:32copperis there a way to cause the storage activity tag in the sim to return 'h', at will, somehow?
17:07:01coppere.g. a key binding
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17:33:49bertrikTheSeven: yes, we need a clean serial port API for IAP, and properly decouple the serial interrupt from IAP
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17:39:26amayerafter we get IAP working could we theoretically port it to other devices? or does it need the serial port in order to work?
17:39:42amayer(other devices being non-apple devices)
17:41:20Torne..of course it needs the serial port :)
17:41:38Torneyou need to be able to talk to the accessory
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17:45:05amayerwell i was talking more about over usb like to a car stereo
17:46:18TheSevenI don't think we support USB accessory communication so far
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18:23:02pamauryI hate the MSC vs MTP automagic
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18:26:18The_VoleDoes anyone in here know whether using FAT32-formatted microSDXC cards with a volume size of over 32 GB can cause problems with RockBox on the Sansa Clip+ ?
18:29:35relawasnt there a 32gb limit to the clip series?
18:29:57The_VoleIm not sure, thats why Im asking :/
18:30:32The_VoleIve used a 32gb HC card before, that worked fine, but I never went over that capacity
18:30:57The_VoleI know microSDHC host devices like the Clip+ can theoretically use microSDXC cards when you format the XC card with a fat32 filesystem
18:31:02relai too have a 32gb in a clip zip. no problems there. i have seen forum posts of ppl using bigger cards
18:31:22relabut isnt it cheaper to just buy 2 or more 32gb sdhc cards? :)
18:31:57gevaertsThe_Vole: should work fine
18:33:14relanow the pros are here
18:33:33The_Volerela: Im lazy, I dont want to change cards too much, besides, microSD cards are so small I can easily lose them :)
18:33:41relai agree
18:33:55relaprice does not always matter
18:36:00The_Volegevaerts: theres no special size limit?
18:36:15reladamn it
18:36:24relanow i have to buy a 64gb card too... just because it works
18:36:47The_Volealright, thanks for the help
18:37:33*TheSeven always considered it odd for the people behind SD to just bump the limit from 2 to 32GB when introducing SDHC... seemed kinda short-sighted
18:37:58TheSevenbut considering microsoft's artificial 50GB FAT32 limit it might make some sense
18:38:34The_Volefat32s actual limit is around 2TB, right?
18:41:24TheSevendepends on the sector size, but for the common value of 512 bytes it would be 2TB
18:42:27The_Voleconsidering that artificial limit: can I even create/format 50GB+ fat32 volumes using Windows 7?
18:42:30TheSevenmight actually be up to 8TB with a 64 bit implementation
18:43:02TheSeven16TB with 32bit implementation on an advanced format (4K sectors) drive
18:44:09TheSevenI don't think you can create them with the shipped utilities
18:44:18TheSevenbut you can using 3rd party tools
18:44:19TorneThe_Vole: MS artificially limit *formatting* volumes as FAT32 at 32GB, but it will access larger ones just fine
18:44:32Torneyou just need to use a different format program
18:45:05The_Voleah, MSs formatting tool just doesnt allow it
18:46:47The_Volealright, so I just have to use a different formatting tool to format a 64gb card to contain a fat32 volume, and it should work with a Clip+?
18:49:00The_Volealrighty then, thanks for the help, people :)
18:49:00TheSevensomeone should write an sd card formatter rockbox plugin :)
18:52:15The_VoleIf I ever learn C / C++, I will ;)
18:56:53pamauryoh my god
18:57:02*pamaury is shocked by how MTP vs MSC is implemented
18:57:26The_Voleis it bad?
18:58:41pamaurywell first it's very rare to actually have the code of device which does this, the one i'm looking at is from sony and yeah that's pretty bad
18:58:56 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
19:00:50madcat1990The_Vole, I used the EASUS Parition manager tool, to format my 64GB for my Clip+
19:00:54madcat1990worked flawlessly
19:01:13madcat1990I used an AData card
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19:01:40The_Volealright, thanks for the tip madcat1990
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19:35:00pamaurydoes someone here have a sony mwz player ?
19:53:41bluebrotherpamaury: I've been quite busy with other things lately, so no :(
20:06:09pamauryTheSeven: ever seen an implementation of an automagic MTP vs MSC selection driver ?
20:06:14 Quit stoffel (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
20:11:22pamaurycause I have one under my eyes, I thought you might be interested
20:13:33TheSevenhow are they doing it? watching what the OS is doing with the device and reconnecting if it fails somehow? or some trick with multiple interfaces or configurations?
20:14:11TheSevenoffer both and wait for the OS to attempt to access one, then disconnect, disable the other one and reconnect?
20:14:24*TheSeven can think of various hacks how that could be implemented
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20:20:46 Join SovonHalder [0] (SovonHalde@
20:24:04SovonHalderCopper: I am having various issue with the new themes. The themes are splendid anyway. But I am getting issues connecting it to pc when the theme is on. The USB icon doesn't show up no removable device is shown as conected & the device can't be removed properly
20:24:41SovonHalderusing default cabbiev2 doesn't get any troubles
20:25:00SovonHalderhave you experienced anything similar with your iPod Classic ?
20:26:50copperno :-/
20:28:38SovonHalderwhen I said, it won't show usb icon I meant this........ Initially my iPod is turned off while connected via usb. then I click on any random button to turn it on.
20:28:47kugelTheSeven: I used libusb without signing
20:29:08kugelkernel drivers need to be signed, but libusb is just a user space library
20:29:24TheSevenyes, but it requires a kernel driver in order to access any devices
20:29:47kugelare you sure?
20:29:47TheSeveni *think* that can be provided by winusb these days
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20:29:50SovonHalderin previous days, the usb icon normally showed just after boot but with the theme the usb symbol on ipod screen doesn't come up
20:30:25kugelI literally only dropped a precompiled libusb*.dll and it worked
20:32:46TheSevenwell which driver was installed for the device in question?
20:33:26kugelTorne: I think windows' cli format.exe allows it, just not the GUI
20:33:58kugelTheSeven: no driver, hence libusb
20:34:43copperSovonHalder: I turn on the iPod, wait for HDD activity to stop, unplug non-essential USB devices on my laptop, then plug in the iPod
20:35:24copperSovonHalder: also:
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20:36:50TheSevenkugel: tell me how that works then, because it didn't for me :)
20:36:54kugelI used it for example with a 20:29 -!- soap [~soap@rockbox/staff/soap] has joined #rockbox
20:37:17kugelI used it for example with a MSP-FET430UIF and the mspdebug program
20:37:27webguest35Got a Creative ZENXFi thought there a ROCKbox download for it but I can't find it.
20:37:43TheSeventhen there must have been a filter driver installed or something
20:37:58kugelAs I said, I just dropped the libsub dll
20:38:32kugelI did need elevated privileges though, perhaps you forgot about that?
20:38:37copperwhy is there no GUI entry to select which icon set to use? :(
20:39:04webguest35Found ZENXFi3 and ZENXFi2 ,could have sworn there was a download for ZENXFi.
20:40:15kugelTheSeven: what makes you think you need a kernel driver portion; the official libsub-win32 wiki also suggests its not needed
20:41:03kugelhm, wait, the 2nd sentence suggests otherwise
20:41:37kugelbut the kernel portion is provided by libsub *and* is signed (" Vista/7/2008/2008R2 64 bit are supported from version since a Microsoft KMCS accepted digital signature is embedded in the kernel driver libusb0.sys.")
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20:46:16kugelso it's like I said, with libusb you can write a user space only driver without needing to have anything signed on windows
20:46:39kugelunless I'm misunderstanding their wiki
20:46:53SovonHalderCopper: I read all the comments. I prefer colored icons
20:49:44SovonHalderCopper: Jeez. I thought I was gonna sound crazy if I said that. S I didn't say it. I tried connecting-disconneccting several times while on your theme. If I turn on->then wait for HDD to be incative->then plug in, it's A okay. nothing wrong here. however if I turn on the iPod after connecting usb plug, issues occurs.
20:51:08SovonHalderso, is this the normal iPod/rockbox maintainance rule/method here to connect after turning on ?
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20:51:52TheSevenkugel: the problem is that you need to install that libusb-provided kernel driver, which wasn't signed at all back in the old days
20:52:18kugelbut it is now
20:52:19TheSevenand that driver also used to be quite buggy, causing bluescreens, preventing the system from entering sleep mode, ...
20:53:24TheSevenand, unless you install it as a filter driver, which opens up yet another can of worms, it will conflict with itunes' driver, so you have to forcibly override that, which will prevent itunes from restoring the ipod if it is ever needed
20:53:47copperSovonHalder: yes
20:54:37TheSevenwe've tried to implement that over at freemyipod, and got lots of complaining people
20:54:46TheSevenpiggybacking on itunes turned out to be much more reliable
20:57:40SovonHalderCopper: I know it's experience based. The more you use, the more you come to know about it. But is there any guide/tutorial/wiki/manual on such tiny but important & helpful facts on regulations of iPod on rockbox?
20:59:45coppernot really, mostly because no-one's really identified what exactly causes such bugs
20:59:53copperso there is no definitive solution
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21:02:37SovonHalderokay..I'll keep doing this then−−turning on iPod before connecting..
21:02:57SovonHalderby the way..should I update the theme now?
21:03:20SovonHalderor would you hit me an email when you finalize your upload at rockbox website?
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21:08:14copperI'm making lots of changes
21:08:17copperI'll let you know
21:08:25copperor, you could just hang around
21:10:22SovonHalderYou know I am always around.. :D
21:10:50SovonHalderbut let me know when you finish everythig
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22:26:09madcat1990Can an expert tell me what is up with Clip+'s USB function in rockbox? everytime I do a transfer it freezes the device, and the drive becomes empty in windows
22:27:03madcat1990Same problem can be achieved with Stable and Dev builds
22:30:09*TheSeven smells more synopsysotg trouble
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22:48:57madcat1990Should I report this?
22:49:02madcat1990or is it something known?
22:55:07TheSevenmadcat1990: could be related to some troble that we have on the ipod nano 2g
22:55:12TheSevenwhich has the same usb "chipset"
22:58:57madcat1990Coincidentially, I've had the same problems with iMini2G
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