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#rockbox log for 2013-08-15

00:00:23 Quit Rower (Quit: Hmmm...)
00:00:53pamauryTheSeven: no, it's implemented this way: present a mass storage interface, monitor the first bulk transfer. If it's obviously a mtp command, switch to mtp mode *without* reenumerating
00:02:37pamaurywhy do some people think we support Creative ZEN X-Fi ? The wiki doesn't show any progress, the forum thread doesn't say it's working and it's not in the supported list !
00:04:50lebelliumeveryone is on the IRC :D
00:05:00lebelliumshould I buy a second handed Zen X-Fi ? :D
00:05:24pamaurythere is a port *in progress* and go hell figure out what it means ;)
00:08:06pamauryactually it's probably a good time to buy, there are many cheap out there
00:10:29lebelliumif I find one around €20 on leboncoin or ebay why not. But I won't spend much for that sh**** player ;)
00:11:35pamauryI think you can find one for 20€ on leboncoin, just need to check regularly
00:13:07lebelliumyou expect bluetooth to be supported on X-Fi 3 with RB?
00:14:05pamaurythat might take some time but yes eventually
00:14:12pamauryon the X-Fi3 it's quite easy
00:37:28 Quit soap (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:45:59 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 24.0/20130812173056])
00:52:39 Quit rela (Quit: Leaving)
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01:03:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:37:30[Saint][01:58:53] <Zagor> in my day we had an option to enable numeric volume indicator. −−-we still do! :)
02:38:15[Saint]Torne: I would argu that indicating line level is also useful...but, meh.
02:38:26wowanameNo module named usb.core...
02:38:28wowanamebrb google
02:44:24wowanamehahah maybe python-usb
02:44:33wowanamethe fuck
02:44:45wowanamewell the error changed from usb.core to core
02:44:49wowanameprogress at least
02:45:47[Saint]copper: please try avoiding telling people that weird hacks are "normal", ok?
02:45:58[Saint]re: [06:51:12] <SovonHalder> so, is this the normal iPod/rockbox maintainance rule/method here to connect after turning on ?
02:46:03[Saint]...that's clearly a bug.
02:46:40wowanamewho me? or sovon
02:48:44[Saint]I was addressing copper, I have no idea what you're up to. You're being amazingly vague.
02:49:27wowanameoh sorry
02:49:50[Saint]If you'd like to be more specific, I'm sure someone could help you.
02:49:55wowanamei was trying to run the script and it came up it could not load module core
02:50:14wowanamei'm sorry, i tend to speak my mind in irc in fragmented thoughts and i shouldnt even do that
02:50:36wowanamebetween searching online and creating a message
02:50:58TheSevensounds like you're using python-usb 0.4.2, not 1.0.x
02:51:42TheSevenI guess you're using debian or ubuntu, which don't have the newer one in their repositories yet
02:52:09wowanameok i'll compile from source
02:52:13TheSevenso just download pyusb at sourceforge, grab the "usb" folder from that archive, and put it where is
02:52:14wowanameassuming it will work
02:52:29TheSevenno need to permanently install it
02:52:33wowanameok thanks
02:53:00TheSevenpython will automatically look for it in the current directory
02:53:15TheSevenor rather in the directory where the script is
02:53:57[Saint]Do you have the installation instruction in front of you?
02:54:10wowanamenot per se but it is up in a tab
02:54:40[Saint]Is there a way it could be improved upon?
02:54:53[Saint]The very first line on the linux install page should avoid this happening.
02:54:55*wowaname reads
02:55:04TheSevenwe could probably offer a pre-packaged version of all those scripts and pyusb
02:55:07wowanameoh i see it
02:55:13wowaname pyusb >=1.0.0a0 installed
02:55:17[Saint]first instruction: "Make sure that you have python 2.6 or newer, libusb and pyusb >=1.0.0a0 installed"
02:55:38TheSevenit might be worth mentioning more clearly that some popular distros do *not* have the right versions of things
02:55:53[Saint]it does specifically state to
02:55:54wowanameit was my fault i didnt read
02:55:56*[Saint] shrugs
02:56:10TheSevenif people don't read we need to highlight things better
02:56:26TheSevena little FAQ section with common problems might help as well
02:56:38wowanameadd a ''' ''' around it :p
02:56:44TheSevendon't worry, you aren't alone. you're at least the 20th user that I explain this to :)
02:57:04wowanamelol sorry
02:57:09[Saint]and about the same number I have asked how this could be avoided. :)
02:57:10TheSevenso yeah, that might warrant introducing a FAQ
02:58:54TheSevensomeone could also rewrite those python scripts to work with all combinations of python and pyusb versions
02:59:06wowanameha it works
02:59:08TheSevenit might be a bit tricky because of some odd bugs, but it's certainly doable
02:59:09wowanamethanks guise
02:59:11wowanamenow next step
02:59:51TheSevenyou should see a UMSboot drive in your file manager now
03:00:01wowanamein /media?
03:00:10wowanamethere it is
03:00:25TheSevenslow, but accessible?
03:00:56TheSevenwe have a new beta version of the DFU file that is supposed to make it both faster and more reliable
03:01:02wowanameit's an empty dir if that's what you mean by accessible
03:01:33TheSeventhe new one is in here, if you want to try if it works better/faster:!NAoChaZA!LvrFIyi-cyTiP40U6Du7ITJpvUEITxhH5VCO2sIyKn4
03:02:16wowanamesexy cloud
03:02:31wowanamei *wonder* what that implies
03:03:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:04:19wowanameeh i'll stick with 0.1
03:05:29TheSevenit's a beta version that hasn't been officially published yet because it's awaiting feedback from testers
03:05:53TheSevenonce I've received sufficient positive feedback about it behaving better than the old one, I'll replace the one linked from the wiki
03:06:17wowanamei'm sticking with stabler
03:06:20wowanamemore stable*
03:06:45[Saint]You have no idea of what "more stable" is, at this point.
03:07:24wowanamei'm going solely off version numbers
03:07:33TheSevenin fact that new version was written because the old one was acting up rather often :)
03:07:40TheSevenso far we've had less problems with the new one
03:07:50wowanamewell damn
03:08:07TheSevenbut yeah, as long as it works, you can use whichever version you want
03:08:09 Quit robin0800 (Quit: KVIrc 4.3.1 Aria
03:08:34TheSevenit's just a tool that's used to run the installer anyway. once you've installed emCORE it won't make a difference which one you've used
03:08:54wowanamethat's why i'm sticking with what i have lol
03:10:44wowanameis it odd that the umsboot partition would be 67 instead of 64mb
03:10:57 Join zoktar [0] (~zoktar@unaffiliated/zoktar)
03:12:01wowanamenice installer to whoever made it
03:15:41TheSeven67MB == 64MiB
03:15:55[Saint]67MB == ~64MiB
03:16:07wowanamei always forget the MiB
03:16:09TheSevenit's exactly the iPod's RAM size
03:16:44TheSevenwowaname: I'm curious what's nicer in your opinion: the installer or the boot menu :)
03:16:55*[Saint] assumes the latter
03:17:34wowanameboot menu honestly... except the scrolling could be a bit less fluent so you are more aware of what you have selected
03:17:52TheSevenwowaname: you can also just press the left and right buttons on the wheel
03:17:59[Saint]there's a *very* slight "snap to"
03:18:08[Saint]when scrolling.
03:18:13wowanamethe selected is opaque
03:18:15[Saint]maybe it could be more agressive.
03:18:17wowanameso it is noticable
03:18:35wowanamelike the iPod's shuffle selector
03:18:37TheSeventhe selected one is also in the foreground, overlapping the other icons
03:18:50wowanameyou can either scroll and it will lock to one or hit prev/next
03:18:52TheSevenand there's some small text at the bottom ;)
03:19:20*[Saint] is an old man and absolutely cannot read that text.
03:19:32[Saint]...'git off ma lawn! etc.
03:20:30[Saint]Its technically themeable, ...but, its rather nightmarish.
03:20:45[Saint]The iLoader syntax was a lot easier to grasp.
03:20:49TheSeventhe text isn't themable beyond its color
03:20:57[Saint]I meant, the entire thing.
03:20:58TheSevenit uses emcore's system font
03:21:22TheSeven[Saint]: well, this one is much easier to grasp for programmers :)
03:21:37TheSevenor at least for programmers who have some experience with C
03:21:38[Saint]s/programmers/you/ :P
03:21:39wowanameok it should be installed
03:21:47wowanamety [Saint] TheSeven <3
03:22:03TheSeveniloader was a LOT less flexible :)
03:23:10[Saint]As soon as I figured out the themeing in there, you went and changed it on me! :P
03:23:37TheSevenlook at
03:23:56TheSevenI'm not sure if you are mixing it up with the old all-in-one-file mess
03:24:12[Saint]...does it still ship with the Winter theme as default?
03:24:25wowanamebrb my flashdrive isnt ejecting and i have to remount it
03:24:36 Quit wowaname (Quit: brb restarting vbox)
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03:28:37[Saint]wowaname: remember to check out the Tools menu in emCORE.
03:28:42[Saint]Specifically Fastboot.
03:28:48wowanamei am on it now lol
03:28:54[Saint]Most people aren't going to want to boot directly into emCORE>
03:28:56TheSevenyou mean tools=>settings :)
03:29:00[Saint]aha. Awesome.
03:29:08wowanamequestion: does VBox detect it as an unknown devicde
03:29:14[Saint]Sorry, yes.
03:29:18wowanameTheSeven» that's where i am :3
03:30:21[Saint]From now on, the iPod should be detected as plain old removable storage with the volume label iPodClassic
03:30:44[Saint]the fact that it is an ipod should be invisible to most sane things.
03:31:30[Saint]...except Macs, crappy car stereos, iPod Docks, and maybe a few other cases I haven't seen.
03:31:56[Saint]they look at the ID, see its an iPod, try "talking iPod" to it, and fall over.
03:32:36[Saint]well, its a safe assumption for them to make.
03:32:49TheSeven[Saint]: ...and iTunes, lsusb, some linux media player software, ...
03:32:50[Saint]It just makes things interesting for Rockbox'ed iPods.
03:33:09TheSevenor, in summary: everything that relies on the USB ID to determine what it is will still see it as an iPod
03:33:32wowanameprobably is more practical
03:34:40wowanametrying to figure difference between initial and idle timeouts
03:34:59TheSeveninitial = after powering it on
03:35:07TheSevenidle = after not doing anything for a while
03:35:16wowanamemakes perfect sense
03:35:26wowanamei like the system font
03:35:34[Saint]the initial timeout is essentially a safegaurd for accidental power on.
03:35:42TheSevenso you can say "go back to sleep after 30 seconds, but wait 5 minutes instead if I have actually done something since I powered it on"
03:36:36[Saint]I just don't bother, since there's very little reason to ever be in the emCORE menu for most users.
03:36:42[Saint]fastboot FTW.
03:37:06[Saint]That's one of my happiest "bitched until it happened" features. :)
03:37:32TheSeventhat might need an explanation as well: fastboot means "boot straight into XY unless you keep pressing a button after powerup"
03:37:34wowanamecuriosity kills the cat: how do i escape from terminal
03:37:48TheSevenwowaname: by completely rebooting it using menu+select
03:37:59TheSevenor by telling it to do something via USB using :)
03:39:43wowanamedammit windows decided to drivers
03:40:01wowanamewell maybe that will be helpful
03:40:05wowanameoh good
03:40:47[Saint]I suspected it would be the case, but with a slight modification the Classic pretty much never boosts the CPU.
03:40:58[Saint]Similar to the Fuze+
03:41:12[Saint]Its more than capable of handling mostly everything on the lowest clock.
03:41:14TheSeven[Saint]: last time I tried that the UI was ultra-sluggish when unboosted
03:41:22[Saint]Its fine for me.
03:42:09wowanametime to make a shitty batch script :D
03:42:20wowanameAND change the mount letter
03:42:23[Saint]I can't perceive a difference between the UI boosted/unboosted.
03:42:44wowanamecan i safely rename from iPodClassic
03:42:49[Saint]The UI is sluggish immediately after boot, though.
03:42:49TheSevenwowaname: yes
03:42:56TheSevenhm, are you sure that it's actually unboosted?
03:43:19TheSeveninteresting... so something must have changed, either in the UI code or the LCD driver
03:44:47TheSevenwhat's the unboosted frequency?
03:47:25[Saint]I've only been testing flac_8 and mp3@320CBR, though.
03:47:29[Saint]Nothing exotic.
03:49:20[Saint]pacman -S sudo xorg xorg-xinit xorg-twm xterm lxde obconf upower gamin polkit-gnome gvfs gvfs-smb gvfs-afb alsa-utils alsa-firmware alsa-lib alsa-plugins xf86-video-fbdev bash-completion
03:49:41[Saint]fuuuuuuck! Seriously Hayden! Gah!
03:50:12*[Saint] repeats endlessly "IRC is not a shell"
03:53:23*TheSeven grumbles about some messy upstart scripts
03:59:05wowanamehey is it just me or does syncing actually work faster than copying over to another drive
03:59:19wowanameand i dont mean a few files
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03:59:36wowanamei have had to resync my library a few times
03:59:47wowanameit may just be me :p
04:00:39[Saint]I don't mean to be an asshole, but, that makes no sense.
04:00:56[Saint]Syncing *is* "copying over to another drive".
04:01:19wowanamei am perfectly aware
04:01:31[Saint]You're just using a graphical utility of <program_you're_using> to save you dragging and dropping yourself.
04:01:33wowanamebut some odd reason it seems like it copies over faster that way
04:01:37[Saint]One should be no faster than the other.
04:01:46wowaname>dragging and dropping
04:02:04wowanamei could have easily "copy %userprofile%\music\* i:\music\"
04:02:16wowanamei have a flat music directory
04:02:40wowanamemay need to change that due to the filetree format in rockbox
04:03:06[Saint]Well, thankfully, Rockbox doesn't give a shit about where the files are located so long as they're not in /.rockbox (though, even that can be negated).
04:03:09[Saint]So, go nuts.
04:03:25wowanamethat's really niced
04:07:41[Saint]If you really prefer file based navigation, then it might pay to use a sane system of placement.
04:07:58[Saint]But, if you're using the Database, and have sanely tagged files, really doesn't matter.
04:07:59wowanamei prefer db
04:08:57[Saint]The Database is only as useful as the metadata is complete/accurate, though.
04:09:14[Saint]I suspect this is one of the reasons many users use the File Browser.
04:10:05wowanamei am very anal about tagging music
04:10:15wowanamehold on
04:10:22[Saint]The type that grabs several thousand individual, horribly tagged files from Limewire et al :)
04:10:35wowanamelele limewire
04:10:45wowanamei use downthemall and the index.of trick
04:12:08wowanamethat's my layout
04:12:27scorchewowaname: please dont go into how to illegally acquire music files in here...
04:12:42wowanamei wasnt going in detail but ok
04:13:10wowanamethe imgur link was for foobar
04:17:59*[Saint] isn't so sure that downthemall == illegal
04:18:05[Saint]It can, sure.
04:18:12[Saint]Is it a given? No.
04:18:13wowanameit isn't. it can be used to do illegal things
04:18:17wowanamesame as bittorrent
04:18:39wowanamea few GNU/Linux distros are downloadable as a torrent
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05:03:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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06:01:56[Saint]Does anyone have an interesting idea, or, any type of idea at all, as to how a progress bar might be represented textually?
06:03:35[Saint]I was thinking something along the lines of "ten twenty thirty FORTY fifty ..." but it needs rather a lot of screen real estate.
06:06:12[Saint]Hmmmm...maybe "10 20 30 FORTY 50 60 ..."
06:07:25[Saint]Backstory: trying to build a minimal theme based solely around text and numerals.
06:37:08JdGordon|============= | is the usual way no?
06:39:38[Saint]Yeah, but I kinda wanted to go for as little non aAzZ0~9 chars as possible
06:40:22[Saint]The "Minimaltext" Adnroid widget is rather similar to the style I'm going for.
06:40:42 Quit Torne (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
06:41:30[Saint]Like "fourTHIRTYfive PM MayTWELVE2013" etc.
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06:48:14JdGordonthat doesn't look reable at all
06:48:33[Saint]its the fonts that make it so.
06:48:37[Saint]it looks crap here.
06:49:14[Saint]if you look at the minimaltext widget screenshots, its rather easy to get a lot of info from it at a glance
06:49:38maraz[Saint]: "0%" ... "100%"
06:50:35[Saint]but what indicates the current percentile?
06:50:43marazthe number does?
06:51:07[Saint]Oh, so you mean "0% N% 100%"?
06:51:34[Saint]then I'm not sure I get it.
06:52:10[Saint]the current percentile is bolded, or colored?
06:52:31marazyou mean the *only* percentile
06:53:20[Saint]well, pardon me for misunderstanding, as this conversation is regarding a textual adaptation of a *bar* :)
06:53:50 Quit Torne (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:53:58marazyou did say you were going for a) minimality b) only text and numerals
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06:54:21maraznow, having unnecessary numbers on the screen emulating a GUI component is non-minimal, IMO
06:54:21JdGordonyeah, doing a text rep of a bar is a bit dumb :)
06:54:53[Saint]That's not the point!
06:54:56[Saint]It looks cool. :)
06:56:00JdGordonI disagree
06:56:15JdGordonwhy not use the song title?
06:56:34JdGordon"A " "A N " "A Ne " ....
06:56:49JdGordonnot sure how to do that in a skin though
06:56:55[Saint]I'm not aware of any mechanism that would make that possible.
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07:10:56dunpealYo yo. I'd like to get a 64GB micro-SDXC card for my Sansa Clip+. Would it work with Rockbox?
07:12:17[Saint]If formatted as FAT32, yes.
07:13:02dunpeal[Saint]: Awesome. I have Clip+, Clip Zip, and an old Fuze. Would it work with them all under Rockbox?
07:13:20dunpealWay cool, thanks.
07:13:33dunpealBTW, they're on sale on Amazon right now for $42 each.
07:13:47dunpealClass 10.
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07:15:42[Saint]I have several of the 64GB SanDisk Extreme UHS-I cards.
07:16:15[Saint]Not that Rockbox needs, or can use, the speed or additional features therein.
07:16:16dunpealYup, that very model: SanDisk Extreme 64 GB SDXC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 45MB/s SDSDX-064G-X46
07:16:34[Saint]But its nice to be able to dump files on it quickly from a readeer.
07:16:45dunpealYeah, that's the main advantage I figured.
07:17:20[Saint]realistically, for the requirements of the device itself for audio - even class 2 is excessive.
07:17:43[Saint]but for syncing, if you don't want to wait for a bajillion years, the faster the better. :)
07:18:09dunpealWhat about listing the very large collections implied by this amount of space?
07:18:45dunpeal[Saint]: what do you use for syncing, btw? I'm on Linux, do you just rsync?
07:20:24[Saint]yes. I have rather a lot of audio, so I have a script that trashes the contents of my music folder(s) on the device(s) and replaces it with as many full albums as possible, randomly chosen (well, kinda, there's a blacklist), from the network share.
07:21:29dunpealhaha, blacklist, don't you like Bieber
07:21:36[Saint]Building the Database on-device at the next boot can be a bit of a PITA sometimes, but its something you only need to do once.
07:21:56dunpealright, that's actually another thing the reading speed would help
07:22:06dunpeal...except I never use the database, just the file list
07:22:25dunpealthe file system should be enough of a cataloging system for everyone!
07:22:26[Saint]On my Classic, with ~158GB of mp3@320 CBR, building the database takes a 'lil while :)
07:23:01[Saint]I like the Database due to the advanced sorting options, as I have nicely tagged media files. :)
07:23:18dunpealah. My tagging generally sucks.
07:23:30dunpealwhat kind of advanced sorting do you use?
07:25:22[Saint]primarily auto-sorting of podcasts.
07:26:28dunpealI wrote my own tagging program that re-tags everything by alphabetical file order
07:27:17[Saint]I use picard.
07:27:26[Saint]best. tagger. ever.
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08:54:30pixelma[Saint]: Mr. Gordon's idea could possibly work with the help of a monospace font, conditional viewports (widths that fit x characters) and the %px tag with as many divisions as you can fit characters on the screen part you to use. The code would probably be quite complicated though
08:55:13[Saint]That is rather creative.
08:55:42pixelmahaven't tried though
08:56:44[Saint]its possible, but it would require a lot of viewports.
08:57:00pixelmathat too
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09:11:31copper[Saint]: turning on the iPod, then connecting it to a USB port, is a "weird hack"?
09:12:39copper<[Saint]> ...that's clearly a bug.
09:12:56copper<SovonHalder> Copper: I know it's experience based. The more you use, the more you come to know about it. But is there any guide/tutorial/wiki/manual on such tiny but important & helpful facts on regulations of iPod on rockbox?
09:13:01copper<copper> not really, mostly because no-one's really identified what exactly causes such bugs
09:13:06copper<copper> so there is no definitive solution
09:13:24copperI think I was being pretty clear about the fact that that was a bug.
09:15:01[Saint]You told him it was "normal". It isn't.
09:15:09copperwhat, no
09:15:21[Saint]It absolutely should work from USB insertion at poweroff, and it not doing so is a bug.
09:15:36copperI didn't say otherwise, or at least I didn't mean to
09:16:00copper^^ "what exactly causes such bugs"
09:16:07copperis that not clear
09:16:27[Saint][06:51:12] <SovonHalder> so, is this the normal iPod/rockbox maintainance rule/method here to connect after turning on ?
09:16:27[Saint][06:53:51] <copper> SovonHalder: yes
09:16:32[Saint]...that's blatantly untrue.
09:16:49copperturning on and connecting is normal
09:16:57coppernot the bug
09:17:12[Saint]WHat's normal is its supposed to fucking work. :)
09:17:49copperwhat I said isn't blatantly untrue
09:18:04[Saint]Telling people its normal to power on before inserting USB, and that its a "rockox rule/method" is quite far from the truth.
09:18:38copperthe truth is that Rockbox + iPod Classic + USB = bugs
09:18:58copperso go ahead and blame me if you will, I don't care
09:18:59[Saint]Right. So say that. Don;t make broad, sweeping, largely untrue statements.
09:19:10copperyou're overreaching
09:19:33[Saint]I am not. You're applying a workaround that you yourself do, to every Rockob target.
09:19:51copperand you mean to give none, do you?
09:19:59coppersorry for trying to help
09:20:07copperI'm sorry that it WORKED for him, too
09:21:03[Saint]The problem is that you stated that its "the normal method", and failed to mention that this was a target specific workwaround that only some people need to use - for an unsupported target no less.
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09:21:56copperyeah. I'm not gonna get mad about this.
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09:22:12copperSo not worth it.
09:22:19[Saint]Saying "you can do this to make it work" is great. Saying that its the approved method for Rockbox is terribly misleading.
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09:59:53copperoh, great
09:59:56 Quit [Saint] (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
10:00:02copperdifferent targets ship with different fonts
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10:00:25copper15-Adobe-Helvetica.fnt for the iPod Classic, 12-Adobe-Helvetica.fnt for the Fuze+
10:01:16copperhmmm, I guess that depends on the display
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10:04:48copperhow does Rockbox determine what font to use, when the font that's specified in the theme isn't present?
10:06:24copperer, it seems to revert to some default font that isn't a font file
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10:32:06copper[Saint]: it seems like your Ubuntu font pack .zip file can't be extracted with regular "unzip" on Linux
10:32:10copperworks with 7z
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10:39:38copperAlso, is there a way to handle different font sizes in a theme? To make sure that text is correctly aligned with various font sizes.
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12:38:47[Saint]copper: yes, I really should replace it, 7zip likes to make broken archives.
12:39:20[Saint]and, possibly, but, it isn't pretty.
12:40:06[Saint]You could nest a bunch of really fucked up conditions to check for specific font names.
12:40:14pamaurygevaerts: have you ever tried to profile the whole usb stack + ums driver ?
12:40:52pamauryI just did a very simple test: add a ramdisk and limit its read speed, ie all reads are at exactly 15MB/s. Then expose it over usb and I get 10.1MB/s read speed
12:41:33pamauryif I do nothing (ie not even a memcpy), we top at 22MB/s which is not that bad but probably could do better
12:43:07[Saint]%?if(%St,=,/full/path/to/and/name/of/font.fnt)<do foo|%?if(%St,=,/full/path/to/and/name/of/font.fnt)<do bar|%?if(%St,=,/full/path/to/and/name/of/font.fnt)<do baz|else do whatever>>>
12:43:13[Saint]copper: ^
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12:43:22[Saint]see, ugly as fuck - but, potentially possible.
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12:43:53InsiderHI all
12:44:50[Saint]Hello, Insider - if you have a question, just ask it - plenty of people here.
12:46:07InsiderI have purchased a Creative Zen X-Fi 3. I like it except for the volume level. Too low (expecially the European version and with latest firmware). I wish to understand (I'm a developer) if there's a way to modify the original firmware to remove the volume level limitation.
12:46:32Insidervolume go from 0 to 31, maybe good if the volume can go up to (e.g.) 47
12:47:15[Saint]European FW are required to have a volume cap, is flashing a non-European version an option?
12:47:33[Saint](modifying the original firmware is kinda outside the scope of this channel)
12:47:53[Saint]However, I do believe there's a Rockbox port for this device underway.
12:48:01[Saint]pamaury: ^?
12:48:01InsiderI really don't understand the reason of this limitation. Are European people more sensible to sound than other?
12:48:09pamauryInsider: I am working on the Zen X-Fi3. Modifying the firmware is really not an option, too much work
12:48:25pamauryHowever it is possible to flash a non-european firmware I think
12:48:32Insiderpamury I think there's some test if (vol>31)vol = 31; somewhere
12:48:40Insiderit's very hard to found it?
12:48:59[Saint]A Rockbox port *will* expose the full range of the target's volume...however, a stable port may be "some time away, to possibly never"
12:49:23pamauryInsider: the OF if a 30MB binary blob, so yes it's hard to find
12:49:53Insiderthe problem is that we cannot simulate the device on PC
12:49:55[Saint](this is coming from a reverse engineering expert, btw)
12:50:00Insiderthat's running the firmware on an emulator
12:50:10[Saint] that manages to baffle the other RE experts with his skill :)
12:50:12pamauryplus I don't see the point, obviously I want to support rockbox
12:50:42InsiderI'm can detect such test, if I can run the firmware on my PC
12:50:46Insiderthere's no emulator?
12:50:47pamauryIf I *really* wanted, with the upcoming tool we are writing we could *maybe* figure that out but I would advise you to use rockbox instead ;)
12:50:54[Saint]Indeed. The firmware on those things is pretty crap.
12:50:57pamauryno there is none
12:51:22InsiderI have some experience in develop emulators
12:51:56Insiderthe problem with rockbox is that actually doesn't implement all the original features.
12:52:13[Saint]To write a full emulator, you'd need to completely understand the hardware, and at that point, you could write your own firmware for it - defeating the purpose slightly.
12:52:34pamaurythat's just too much work, this chip is too complicated, that would take ages to write a complete emulator
12:52:51[Saint]take ages, and not be terribly useful.
12:53:22pamauryThe best option is really to flash a non-european version
12:53:33[Saint]And no, Rockbox won't implement the (mostly non-essential) Xfi sound enhancements.
12:53:52[Saint]However, Rockbox could almost certainly make up for this with its own extensive feature set.
12:54:13Insiderno radio and no recording
12:55:32pamauryrecording should work now, but radio we have an experimental driver, which works but no RDS and probably not sure high quality. Takes times
12:55:52InsiderAn idea could be make a comparison between european and non-european firmware
12:56:00Insiderin order to check the difference
12:56:29[Saint]If you were willing to focus your efforts on the ridiculously daunting task of writing a full emulator, maybe your efforts may be better served by helping with the Rockbox port.
12:56:40[Saint]No one here has any interest in the original firmware.
12:56:52Insiderno, no, I ask only if a such things already exists.
12:57:05InsiderI know that writing one is a very long task
12:57:19InsiderI write a C64 Emulator in past, and I know how much time it require
12:58:01InsiderOk, there's some place when I can get old version of firmware?
12:58:18pamauryIt is not that simple, a simple change here and then everything is different at the binary level. And you understand that we don't really want to support such firmware modification
12:58:27pamauryInsider: creative website
12:58:33[Saint]Creative, one assumes.
12:58:39Insidercreative gives only the latest.
12:58:48Insideras far as I see.
12:58:55pamaurythey keep all the one they publish usually
12:59:57pamauryoh they have a published a new one: 1.00.25e, need to add this one to our tools
13:00:28Insideryes and looks like that from 1.00.22e they have introduced another volume limitation
13:00:39Insider(for european versions)
13:00:45Insiderthe volume is very low
13:00:53pamauryindeed I cannot access the older ones. I have the 1.00.22e and 1.00.15e on my computer
13:01:10pamauryhaha !
13:01:20pamaurygo here:
13:01:28pamauryand in the search box, type 1.00.22e
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13:04:05Insiderthis redirect me to zen 300 1.00.22e firmware
13:04:10Insidernot x-fi 3
13:04:30pamauryah right, hum, they on internet they might be mirrors
13:04:34copper[Saint]: thanks, I totally missed the %St tag
13:05:13Insiderof found it
13:05:16Insiderok found it
13:05:48pamauryactually I'm wondering: is there any non-european version ?!
13:06:04[Saint]apparently not.
13:06:18[Saint]and the "go here; search for blah" method returns no results for me. :)
13:06:42pamauryInsider: however the device might prevent itself from downgrading using the standard update mechanism
13:11:27Insiderso the firmware is unique?
13:11:42Insiderit recognized the european version from hardware?
13:11:44pamaurywhat do you mean by unique ?
13:11:52Insiderno european version
13:11:53pamauryI don't know
13:12:14[Saint]Is there a locale setting in the FW?
13:12:31Insiderusually yes
13:12:41InsiderI had the Creative Zen M300
13:13:08Insideryou can setup the country, but the volume doesn't change
13:13:13[Saint]I don't care about usually. I'm talking about this specific instance.
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13:13:37[Saint]And if that's the case, then, there's approximately nothing you can do, I guess.
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13:13:50InsiderI think that the policy adopted is the same.
13:14:44Insidergood alternative to zen x-fi 3? One thing I link of Creative players is the battery.
13:14:57InsiderI compared it with Sansa Clip +
13:15:08Insider7 hour (Sansa), 20 hour (Creative)
13:15:40[Saint]If you're getting 7h with the Clip+, you're doing something wrong.
13:15:51[Saint]...or the battery is on its way out.
13:17:21[Saint]Using Rockbox, the Clip+ should be getting between 10~17h
13:17:38[Saint]the OF should be getting around 10 at least.
13:20:52[Saint]...unless a recent firmware update slashed a few hours off their runtime, which I doubt.
13:21:03pamauryInsider: was the sound okay in older versions of the zen x-fi3 firmware ?
13:21:40Insideryes, starting from 1.00.22e it become low
13:21:55InsiderI found the 1.00.15e
13:22:04copper[Saint]: actually: %?if(%St(font), =, 14-Nimbus)<nimbus|other>
13:22:06Insiderbut however this restore some old bug
13:22:39[Saint]copper: aha, I was unsure if it stripped the path or not.
13:23:33pamauryInsider: ok i'll see what I do, maybe I can shift the volume range, that looks more feasible than removing a volume cap
13:23:37[Saint]copper: remember you can nest checks for other cases in the "other" section you have there.
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13:25:01Insiderpamaury did you have some disassembler?
13:25:15Insiderwhat processor it have?
13:25:20[Saint]%?if(%St(font),=,14-Nimbus)<do blah|%?if(%St(font), =, 12-Nimbus)<do baz|%?if(%St(font), =, 10-Nimbus)<do foo|other>>>
13:25:24SovonHaldercopper: how far is everything about themes ?
13:25:44copperSovonHalder: made a lot of changes, I'm getting there
13:26:13pamauryI use IDA pro, it's an ARMv5 (arm926ej-s)
13:26:38SovonHalderthe admin there made a very interesting and useful coment on anythingbutipod
13:27:02InsiderI'd like to do investigation too. But I'm not sure what instruments I have to use.
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13:28:49Insiderthere's not a way to execute the firmware in order to see the ui (with no sound or other things), isn't it?
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13:39:58Insiderpamaury: extracting the firmware update files, I have the '' file, but IDA cannot open it.
13:40:14Insider(I have tried the non PRO version of IDA)
13:40:38copperIt's counterintuitive that %Vd(a) needs to be specified BEFORE %Vl(a,-)
13:41:07[Saint]it needn't.
13:41:23copperit doesn't work otherwise
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13:41:59[Saint]it certainly should.
13:42:29pamauryInsider: it needs to be decrypted using a tool I wrote
13:44:37pamaurythe simplest way is probably to clone our repository, because you will need quite a few files
13:44:53InsiderI have downloaded the VM
13:45:45pamauryOk, I don't recall exactly what is in the VM, do you have a copy of our repository somewhere in it ?
13:46:28pamauryyou can use this:
13:47:01[Saint]I'm not sure if the VM image has been updated since the switch to git
13:47:32pamauryit doesn't really matter as long as there is git in the VM
13:50:00[Saint]copper: the reason for it happening like that is because if you do %Vl(foo....); %Vd(foo), foo isn't active yet, so %Vd(foo) never gets called.
13:50:22[Saint]But, if there's a fullscreen static viewport in between the two, %Vd(foo) will be called.
13:51:35[Saint]That's basically asking the viewport to fire itself, as everything after a viewport declaration is included within that viewport, until the next viewport declaration.
13:51:53*Insider is cloning...
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13:58:38Insiderok cloned.
13:58:56Insiderpamaury, where your tool is located?
14:00:21pamaurycd rbutil/mkimxboot
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14:38:31copperI don't suppose it's possible to have a viewport inside a larger viewport?
14:38:58copperhandling different font sizes is rather impractical
14:39:36copperit would be a lot more doable if I could have a single %?if() for the font size, that would select a "master" viewport
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14:41:44copperoh, it works? :O
14:42:55copper"Viewports can share identifiers so you don't end up with bloated code"
14:42:59copperI don't understand that sentence
14:46:17coppernah that doesn't work
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15:11:45[Saint]copper, for example, several viewports can share an identifier and be called at once.
15:12:01[Saint]identifiers needn't be unique.
15:12:57copperAh, I see
15:12:59copperthank you
15:13:25[Saint]and no, you cannot embed a viewport in another viewport except the global default viewport (fullscreen)
15:20:22[Saint]Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but, for readabilities sake identifiers needn't be single character.
15:21:20[Saint]For example, you can do %Vl(metadata display viewport, .......); %Vd(metadata display viewport)
15:21:33copperyes only "m" will count
15:21:49[Saint]= even
15:22:12[Saint]no, the entire indentifer would be "metadata display viewport"
15:22:27[Saint]they haven't been limited to single characters for ages.
15:22:27copperthe wiki says "a single lowercase character"
15:22:37[Saint]the wiki is wrong.
15:22:41[Saint]It usually is.
15:22:56copperwell thanks for the heads up!
15:23:11copperspaces ok?
15:23:34copper"metadata display viewport" <−−- that's a valid identifier?
15:23:40[Saint]should be, yes. but I'm not certain.
15:24:19[Saint]everything before the first "," should be considered the ident
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15:26:18[Saint]Another thing the wiki probably doesn't mention is that subimages for bitmapstrips needn't be done as %?XX<%xd(Aa)|%xd(Ab|%xd(Ac)... anymore, which limited you to 26 subimages.
15:26:39copperyou might want to edit it
15:26:57[Saint]you can now do %?xx<%xd(identifer,1)|%xd(identifier, 2)|...etc
15:27:43[Saint]I need to go through and trash the wiki in favor of the manual.
15:27:52[Saint]Consolidating the info from both.
15:28:05[Saint]Hilariously, neither is complete.
15:28:22lebellium[Saint]: more than 26 subimages. Aa>Az then AA > AZ
15:28:34[Saint]AH, yes, sorry, 52.
15:28:49lebelliumwhich is enough in most cases
15:29:53[Saint]But, try looking at the code and figuring out which number xd(ZF) is referring to. :)
15:30:18[Saint]%xd(Z, 32)...much nicer.
15:30:31[Saint]%xd(image_name, 32)...nicer still
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15:34:02lebelliumI prefer %?pv<%xd(Ga)|...|%xd(GK)> than %?pv<%xd(volume,1)|...|%xd(volume,32)> which would be much longer
15:34:06lebelliumquick lines are better
15:34:39[Saint]It would be longer, yes, but parse in exactly the same time with the bonus of being readily human readable.
15:35:44lebelliumshort lines*
15:36:15lebelliumwould be more readable indeed.
15:36:50[Saint]see: for an example
15:37:26[Saint](yes, I know the caps are ugly - but, I use caps to make idents obvious)
15:39:43Insiderdid you known of some mp3 player (with microsdhc slot) with both advantages of Sansa Clip (high output volume for european) and Creative Zen (long battery life)?
15:40:27[Saint]Well, in here, we'd only care about Rockbox targets - where the volume cap is irrelevant.
15:40:42coppergoddamn, I'm getting there
15:40:45[Saint]The Zen also doesn't have particularly long battery life.
15:41:00Insidermy Zen M300 have full 20 hour of mp3 playback
15:41:00copperhandling 3 different fonts: 14-Nimbus, 19-Nimbus, 21-Adobe-Helvetica
15:41:07[Saint]20 hours is *nothing*
15:41:16coppermaking sure everything is correctly positionned and aligned with any of those 3 fonts
15:41:18Insiderbut is about double of Sansa
15:41:47[Saint]As I mentioned earlier, for you to be getting 7 hours out of a Clip+, something was wrong.
15:42:26[Saint]Rockbox cab squeeze 17 hours out of a Clip+
15:42:47Insiderit support also Clip Zip?
15:42:50lebelliumI reach 10-15hrs with my 3 year old clip+
15:43:04[Saint]iPod Classic 6G ("fat"), with Rockbox...?
15:43:09[Saint]~54 hours
15:43:34[Saint]And, yes, the Clip Zip is supported.
15:43:54InsiderI think I'll buy a Clip Zip
15:44:35InsiderI can't found a better mp3 player for that price.
15:44:37[Saint]The touchpad on it is really horrible.
15:44:44[Saint]*really* horrible.
15:44:56lebelliumtouchpad on clip zip?!
15:45:20[Saint]Whoops, I mentally replaced Clip Zip with Fuze+
15:45:21Insiderbut why a touch interface on a mp3 player??
15:45:39[Saint]Sorry, I messed up. I was thinking of the Fuze+, not the CLip Zip.
15:45:54Insiderah ok
15:46:14[Saint]The Zip is a nice little player.
15:46:23[Saint]Though, I've only used mine like 3 times.
15:46:35[Saint]Cute little screen.
15:46:50InsiderI had the Clip + in past
15:47:03InsiderI remember it was very fast
15:47:49Insiderbut one day, I'm about to charge it (pluggin the usb) and the player dead.
15:48:18[Saint]This is all too common for these devices, apparently.
15:48:25Insiderthe display take off, it become very hot
15:48:38InsiderSansa series suffer of that problem.
15:48:43InsiderNever a problem with Creative.
15:48:51Insider(such a*)
15:49:07[Saint]We ocasionally see Sansa devices abruptly die.
15:49:18InsiderYes, I can confirm.
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15:49:37InsiderSo what mp3 player do you use?
15:50:34[Saint]I use an iPod Color with a 64GB compact flash card, and a few iPod Classic 6G 160GB.
15:50:52[Saint]I have many other assorted devices, however.
15:50:57[Saint]I just don't use them.
15:51:17lebelliumI thought you used your Nanos
15:52:06[Saint]I use them occasionally, but, less and less now.
15:52:18[Saint]4GB just isn't enough storage.
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15:53:15lebelliumyou don't have a 8GB one?
15:53:46[Saint]Not anymore, no. I used to, but it seems to have gone AWOL.
15:54:08[Saint]Its probably around here somewhere.
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15:54:45InsiderI think I will put rockbox on X-Fi 3
15:55:01[Saint]I'm not sure there's a ready installer.
15:55:08InsiderWith original firmware, the device is unusable
15:55:14[Saint]I'm not even sure the code for that port is in our sources.
15:55:22Insiderthe volume is tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo low
15:55:24[Saint]pamaury: ^?
15:55:39pamauryinstaller is not ready, there patches on gerrit but I'm waiting for bluebrother to check them
15:55:42InsiderStupid Creative.
15:55:49pamaurybut otherwise it's easily done with linux
15:55:52[Saint]aha. thanks.
15:56:12InsiderThere's some instruction on how I can do it?
15:56:18webguest22I wonder how far off the next release is...
15:56:31[Saint]webguest22: we're overdue, I believe.
15:56:52pamaurythere is a prebuilt image for the bootloader so you don't have to build it yourself
15:57:01pamauryit will disappear when rbutil is ready
15:57:16webguest22Have any idea?
15:57:33Insiderbut there's a way to reinstall the original firmware?
15:57:35[Saint]AlexP is usually the release chairman, but I haven't seen any talk of a feature freeze lately.
15:57:50[Saint]It was mentioned in passing the other day, but, I didn't see any followup.
15:58:15webguest22Ah well. Guess we will just have to wait and see,
15:58:22[Saint]Insider: yes, you can revert to the original firmware.
15:58:47[Saint]If dual-boot is active on this target, you can boot both.
15:58:51[Saint]I believe it is.
15:58:51Insiderok, I say that, because if my device result damaged, I think I have to restore the original firmware (for warranty)
15:59:25pamauryand it cannot be bricked (virtually)
15:59:41[Saint]webguest22: generally speaking, it is perfectly safe to run the git versions.
15:59:54[Saint]and RbUtil can backup your current installation for you.
16:00:12[Saint](or, you can, its just as simple as copying /.rockbox
16:00:35Insiderdual-boot is a very nice option
16:00:40Insidervery very nice
16:00:49 Quit pamaury (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
16:00:53[Saint]If there's some feature you're waiting for from a release, there's no harm in trying git head.
16:01:03[Saint]you can always roll back.
16:01:28 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
16:02:38pamauryand even better: tell us (me ?) what feature rockbox is missing or what feels wrong with rockbox
16:05:35webguest22I have no coding ability. It's something I want to learn, but unfortunately cannot in the foreseeable future. If I do ever learn, I will happily try to contribute to rockox.
16:06:31[Saint]webguest22: you needn't be able to code, nor contribute, to try out the git versions.
16:06:41[Saint]..or, perhaps I misunderstood?
16:08:13webguest22I don't know how, and I don't really think it's worth the hassle, if it might be unstable.
16:08:53lebelliumit's the same installation way as releases
16:09:18[Saint]If you use rbutil, its as simple as picking current version over release.
16:09:44[Saint]manually, just pull from
16:09:49Insider"LCD is working. Still lacking lcd sleep, and inversion."
16:09:55webguest22The only thing that is not in rockbox that I would particularly like to see is epub support, which I doubt is ever coming. I'm more just curious.
16:09:57[Saint]extract the zip, boom, done.
16:10:21Insiderwhat mean "lcd sleep"? the display never switch off?
16:10:41webguest22But they are probably unstable versions, not worth the hassle of installing.
16:10:58webguest22I'm just curious about features.
16:11:00[Saint]No, they're stable.
16:11:18[Saint]If its a stable target, the git head build is still considered stable.
16:11:32[Saint]it *may* contain bugs, but, probably doesn't.
16:11:43lebelliumreleases may also contain bugs
16:12:05[Saint]There's always a chance the release can contain more bugs than git head does.
16:12:40pamauryInsider: means we don't sleep the lcd, just backlight off, so we could save more power
16:12:45[Saint]I'm not sure anything particularly interesting has been added for stable targets in the last 3~4 months, though.
16:13:03[Saint]oh, sure it has...opus.
16:13:12pamauryrecording is not up to date, I think it should work, it does on the fuze+
16:13:33webguest22Hhhhhmmmmmm... Maybe I'll give it a try. But I doubt there are any significant new features in them. That is really what I'm curious about.
16:13:47[Saint]Realistically, its preferable that more people try the git head versions.
16:14:01[Saint]More people == more exposure == more potential bugs found
16:14:11webguest22hhmmm... True.
16:14:55[Saint]webguest22: is a nice place to check things like that
16:15:10[Saint](that's all commits since the last release was tagged)
16:15:16lebelliumwell, the way we present releases, dev versions, as well as stable, unstable, unsuable targets doesn't tempt most people to try anything but a release on a stable target...
16:15:26webguest22Do you think there will ever be ebook support? I mean real ebook files like epub or mobi.
16:16:50Insiderhowever men, rockbox is a very nice project
16:17:39Insiderkeeps the very good work.
16:17:46webguest22I agree wholeheartedly.
16:17:49pamaury[Saint]: except for the usb/theme bug :-/
16:18:30[Saint]webguest22: ...dunno, is there a pure C, fixed point, GPL compatible epub reader implementation somewhere?
16:18:33lebelliumit should be more visible on the website that most unstable targets are actually usable and that releases are not necessarily more stable than dev versions
16:18:57InsiderI always dream for an "open mp3 player"
16:19:09Insideran mp3 with firmware source code released by manufacturer :)
16:20:04Insiderso that "everyone" can customize/fix it.
16:20:23webguest22No clue. I would look around, but I have no clue what most of that means.
16:22:35[Saint]you could always do epub->txt and use it on-device like that.
16:22:39[Saint]but, that's kinda ugly.
16:23:33 Part PlexiPrinceton
16:23:48[Saint]Amaury Pouly, 142 hits on
16:24:02[Saint]You've been busy, sir.
16:24:28 Quit webguest22 (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
16:24:33[Saint]You've dominated the active commits since June
16:24:58copperwow, done
16:25:19 Join webguest22 [0] (
16:25:51copperI was having trouble at first, but my theme (and its 12 variants) now supports the 3 different fonts
16:26:12copperwith correct placements / alignments
16:26:27copperthat should make the 40-somthings happy
16:28:30 Join madcat1990 [0] (~madcat199@
16:28:49madcat1990Yup, Clip+ definately has serious USB issues, on both stable and dev. Should I report them?
16:29:17 Quit webguest22 (Client Quit)
16:29:26madcat1990or is this known?
16:30:09pamaurydamn, the connection here is too bad, will be back later
16:32:46[Saint]If it magically goes away when you change back to the default theme, then yes, add your experience here:
16:32:47[Saint]If you're using the default theme, take a look at flyspray and see if there's an active bug you can attach it to.
16:32:59[Saint]madcat1990: ^
16:34:04[Saint]Certain themes have been breaking USB for some time now.
16:34:21[Saint]For an unknown reason (almost certainly memory management issues)
16:36:14madcat1990I'll change it to default
16:36:17madcat1990then do a heavy transfer
16:36:22madcat1990I'll see if it breaks
16:37:32madcat1990USB is detected a whole lot faster now
16:38:09madcat1990xfers go up 2mb/s
16:38:33[Saint]Transfer is faster with the default theme?!?
16:38:52[Saint]...if that's reproducible, that's...well, that's just insane.
16:38:58 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
16:41:51[Saint]Heh, saratoga got tricked into replying to a bot.
16:42:06[Saint]These subtle copypasta spammers are annoying as hell.
16:42:22[Saint]Can a forum mod nuke that guy please?
16:42:36[Saint](compare his text with the original posting)
16:43:26madcat1990insane indeed. Not changing ever again
16:43:35madcat1990USB seems a lot more stable now o-o
16:43:40madcat1990no 5 second pauses anymore
16:44:00[Saint]I just wish we knew why this was happening.
16:44:37[Saint]I blame lebellium...he started it :P
16:44:41[Saint]Its all his fault.
16:47:13lebelliumbut I'm not expecting it to be fixed. Nobody has managed to fix it over the last 2 years so why now or tomorrow? :)
16:49:29copper[Saint]: my themes no longer qualify as "simple" and "less likely to break USB" :-/
16:51:45copperthank GAWD I generate theme variants automatically
16:52:08copperstill, uploading all 12 of them separately on the Rockbox website is a royal pain in the ass :(
16:52:57copperfill the form, submit, re-fill the form because the theme exists already and the website insists on asking for confirmation, while losing your files, submit, wait for the confirmation mail, click on the link
16:53:36copperI really wanted to upload a meta archive of all 6 variants per theme
16:53:49copperit would be a lot easier (and more convenient)
16:54:45lebelliumI assume that would require serious changes on the website. Finding someone motivated these days is not easy :P
16:55:06Zagorcopper: perhaps it can be scripted?
16:55:06[Saint]amayer was poking at it for a while
16:55:40amayer*wakes up from zoning out* what?
16:57:07amayeryes i have been working on the themesite. the release of dota2 had slowed my work considerably. but i still find time to work on it. the upload process will be a lot better after im done with it and you will log in using the forums
16:58:24lebelliumso no shitty real name? :D
16:58:43[Saint]real name isn't required for themes.
16:58:49lebelliumit is
16:58:50amayerYes it will still log your real name if you enter one
16:58:56amayer[Saint]: for now it is
16:59:22copperoh great, yet another Rockbox account to register to
16:59:41[Saint]aren't you on the foums already?
16:59:46amayercopper: you only need a forum account (if you dont already have one)
17:00:13copperamayer: you mean aside for the other half dozen I've been asked to register to for other Rockbox activities
17:00:33amayeryeah now that i think of it there are lot of logins required
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17:01:00[Saint]amayer: hmmm, I was wrong.
17:01:14[Saint]Additionally, I'm not sure the forum login thing is a great idea.
17:01:31copperthat means, SPAMMERS!
17:01:33[Saint]as people aren't going to be using a real name most often.
17:01:52[Saint]and, it is required (despite me thinking otherwise)
17:02:17[Saint]It would be a shame to have to pull themes because someone uploaded as Captain Happypants
17:02:23amayerin my thing real name is still required. and you can spam the themesite now. all you need is an email address and a "real name"
17:03:11lebelliumwhat would be great is require real name but let the use choose to display nickname or real name.
17:03:32amayerI could add that in *opens notes*
17:03:33copperamayer: ah, right
17:03:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:04:16amayerat least if you have a forum account you had to go through captcha (sp?)
17:05:14coppergotcha ;)
17:06:18[Saint]just what we need...spammers uploading screenshots of porn to the themesite! :P
17:07:09[Saint]"Learn how to get a BIG PENIS now with this one weird trick doctors DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW!"
17:07:55lebelliumare these themes forbidden?
17:08:22[Saint]Well...technically, no, I guess...
17:08:40[Saint]But I'm sure we'd rather they didn't. :)
17:09:25Torneany spammer who can construct a working rockbox theme that passes the checker should probably be allowed to have a spam link. ;)
17:10:36amayerTorne: haha. all text posted is interperated as literal ( < gets changed to &lt; ) so they cant post links
17:10:41[Saint]all it would need is a .wps that specified a backdrop (of the correct resolution) to be valid.
17:10:47[Saint]Its not a terribly high bar.
17:10:55[Saint]but...admittedly, I would like to see this happen.
17:11:36[Saint]actually, I think that technically a totally blank .wps file would do.
17:12:07amayer[Saint]: you need a zip file. with a .rockbox folder in it. a wps folder in that. and a .wps file with the same name as your theme. you also need a "wps screenshot" of the correct resolution. and a blank wps file would pass
17:12:31lebellium "[TODO. - why...] " I'm still waiting for the justification :D
17:12:35amayeroh and the .cfg file is required
17:12:36[Saint]Oh, yes, I know it needs to correct .zip structure.
17:13:07[Saint]lebellium: its non-obvious, but, the license requires a real name for the copyright holder
17:13:08amayerlebellium: I think we are all waiting on the reason. maybe something to do with CC Licensing?
17:16:47lebellium[Saint]: requiring a real name for this reason doesn't oblige to display it on the theme website :)
17:17:20[Saint]Indeed not.
17:17:29[Saint]I wasn't aware I implied it did.
17:17:40lebelliumI have no problem with giving my real name for the rockxbox database. I just don't want it to be displayed
17:17:48lebelliumAnd I'll fight until that changes :D
17:18:51[Saint]Why? Its pretty easy to get a realname from your handle.
17:19:10[Saint]Don't worry, Iwon't out you. :)
17:19:20[Saint]Your secret is safe with me Batman.
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17:25:59[Saint]Why is someone with a Facebook page worried about posting their realname online?
17:26:14[Saint](with several places online that associate their handle and realname)
17:27:31[Saint]also - its *really* obvious its you. :)
17:28:24copper[Saint]: you can make your facebook account non-searchable
17:28:47[Saint]can, ...didn't.
17:28:58copperyou can't find mine
17:29:21Insiderok, I have to go. See ya guys!
17:29:29[Saint]I just found it weird that someone so vocal about the realname policy would have it displayed in (a bunch of) places.
17:29:43Insiderthanks for the support
17:30:07copper[Saint]: it's the association of his real name + his nick that bothers him
17:30:37[Saint]and that was so trivial to find it wasn't funny, evem if you ignore Rockbox.
17:31:35 Quit Insider ()
17:33:51[Saint]also, with slightly more effort, again ignoring Rockbox, I dug you up.
17:34:16[Saint](this involved some prior knowledge about known profiles, however)
17:35:01[Saint]If someone wants to associate a handle you use regularly with a realname...they'll do it eventually.
17:36:14 Quit Zagor (Quit: Clint excited)
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17:42:19lebellium[Saint]: as far as I know my real name is only on Facebook (not linked to my nickname) and...Rockbox
17:43:57[Saint]well, it is linked to your nickname, just, not so obviously.
17:44:25[Saint]ANyway, yeah, if someone wants to find out who you are, its usally remarkably easy to do so.
17:44:49copper[Saint]: how do I use %or()?
17:45:06lebelliumwithout this stupid real name policy associating my real name and my nickname here, it would be already less easy but not impossible of course
17:45:39copperwould it kill wiki editors to supply complete examples…
17:45:40[Saint]%or(%tag, %tag, %tag)<|>
17:45:51copper[Saint]: how do I use it with %?if()
17:46:04copperit's to be used on its own?
17:46:08copperinstead of %if?
17:46:41[Saint]if is for a single incidence of truth or false, or is for checking if multiple tags are true or false.
17:46:58[Saint]and is for checking if all the tags are true, or flase.
17:48:05copperI can't use %or() to check for two or more values beyond "true" or "false", can I?
17:48:35copperi.e. I can't use it to check for two or more fonts
17:48:54copperI have to use nested %?if() for that, right?
17:53:52[Saint]I can't think of any way to do it cleanly, no.
17:54:06[Saint]It may be possible, but I'm not sure.
17:54:18[Saint]I think nested %if is the way to go here.
17:56:13 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
17:56:45[Saint]if you're still awake in ~5 hours or so, prod Mr. Gordon, who will (read: _should_) have a better idea of the logical comparison tags than I.
18:23:06copperI'll be drunk by then!
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18:40:18copperhmmm, how do you mute audio?
18:40:32copperiPod Video / Classic, or Fuze+
18:40:49[Saint]you can't.
18:41:04[Saint]mute is a touchscreen specific tag.
18:41:06copperDidn't Torne say something about showing muted audio?
18:41:38[Saint]I did, its not possible with a bar, though.
18:41:59copperI'm not using a bar
18:42:00[Saint]in %pv<...|...|...> the first tuple is mute.
18:42:05copperyeah I saw that
18:42:48[Saint]but there's no way to do "mute now, regardless of current volume" on non-touch targets that I know of.
18:43:50copperAnother question: is there a battery level percentage that's generally considered "critical"? As in, the device might shut down any minute.
18:43:56[Saint]for bars, %pv behaves like <mute| many tuples as you want|line level|greater than 0dB>"
18:44:02copperIs it 1%, or a higher value?
18:44:02*pamaury is going to do a very dangerous experiment
18:44:39[Saint]it varies per target, and is based on voltage iirc.
18:45:50pamaurycopper: short answer is no, at 1% the device should not shut down (for flash based at least)
18:46:44[Saint]pamaury: do tell?
18:46:52[Saint]re: dangerous experiment
18:47:12pamauryrunning the internal tick task at 1kHz instead of 100Hz
18:47:31pamauryas expected that's a massive failure
18:47:38pamaurybut at 500Hz it works
18:48:55[Saint]what does this achieve?
18:49:15n1scopper: due to the nature of batteries the whole % thing is kind of tricky too
18:49:27copperyeah, forget about it
18:49:44pamaurythe expected achievement is to check whether the usb stack is "tick" bounded
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18:50:26pamauryapparently not, it is not (trivially) the case, at 500Hz I cannot transfer fast from my fake fixed speed ramdisk
18:50:36copper%bp: "p" if the charger is connected (only on targets that can charge batteries)
18:50:48copper%bc: "c" if the unit is currently charging the battery (only on targets that have software charge control or monitoring)
18:50:59copperdo both mean "charging", just for different targets?
18:51:33n1sno, you can have the charger connected without charging if the battery is full
18:51:34[Saint]you can use the two to tell you when its reached charge.
18:51:45[Saint]hahah! beat ya!
18:51:49copperah, ok
18:51:51[Saint](for a change)
18:52:11[Saint]as in: if the charger is connected, and we're not charging, we must be charged.
18:52:18[Saint]see cabbiev2 for a demo
18:52:23copper%bc = c = currently charging
18:52:35copper%bp = p but %bc != c, charged
18:55:42[Saint]%?bp<%?bc<charging|charged>|doing nothing, display battery level>
18:56:53coppera couple more themes and I'll end up an expert with this thing ;)
18:57:30copperI'll be able to monetize my knowledge by making lectures about it ALL OVER THE WORLD
19:03:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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19:36:32madcat1990copper, I commend you for doing more themes, if there is documentation for them, you should definately revise them
19:36:43madcat1990(I.e : improve where applicable)
19:39:43coppermaybe when I'm done with this
19:51:22copperit can't be said that I didn't work my ass off on those themes
19:51:35copperpaid a LOT of attention to detail and functionality
19:51:50coppercan't please everyone, but I think I managed to get a pretty neat result
19:52:30copper[Saint]: I feel like this is one of those things where you need to learn, and you initially don't realise how easy it is, and how much it pays off
19:52:44copper[Saint]: I'm referring to that time when you told me I should learn how to code Rockbox themes
19:53:01[Saint]it does seem daunting initially.
19:53:10coppernot that much, IMO
19:53:15copperI wasn't phased
19:53:40[Saint]Its difficult if you know a "real" language, as it totally unlike any.
19:53:50[Saint]well...I guess its vaguely LUaish
19:53:53copperI don't know any "real" languages
19:53:57copperI know PHP and BASH
19:54:06copperHTML and CSS too
19:54:20n1slooks like perl to me :)
19:54:28[Saint]I think XML was considered at one point.
19:54:32copperI was never able to decipher perl
19:54:39copper[Saint]: I know that one!
19:54:40[Saint]LUA would be ideal, but raise the bar slightly.
19:55:03copper[Saint]: also, when do you ever sleep?
19:55:09copperwhat time is it there
19:55:14[Saint]Rarely. :)
19:55:15coppermust be like 3am or something
19:55:27copperaren't you like 40?
19:55:36copperI'm 31 and I can't NOT sleep anymore
19:55:47n1sif the thing had been designed today with the much more powerful current targets i imagine a more full-fledged language had been used
19:56:45copperanyway, I had lots of fun doing this
19:57:02copperand I think it's really fucking cool that I can customize the UI of my DAPs like that
19:57:06[Saint]with a nice result, too.
19:57:19[Saint]6 nice results
19:57:40copperiPod Classic * 6, + Fuze+ * 6
19:58:11copperso I get the same UI with both my DAPs :)
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20:02:21copperI have two sets of theme files (one for each target), and BASH scripts that generate the other 5 variants for each
20:02:58coppersince the only thing that changes, is the filenames, and some colors
20:03:14coppereasy enough to sed my way through
20:03:17 Join bertrik [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik)
20:04:43copperI think the next step for me is probably themed lists
20:05:29copper[Saint]: can you point me to the relevant wiki entry please?
20:05:36 Quit akaWolf (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20:05:45copper(is that what they're called btw?)
20:07:15 Join akaWolf [0] (~akaWolf@unaffiliated/akawolf)
20:09:36[Saint]it removes (unless you add a nightmarish amount of conditions) basically all control from the user, however.
20:09:58copperit was on the WPS page
20:11:19[Saint]scrollbar placement/size, icon display, userfont selection, line selector, ...all break.
20:12:10[Saint]it forces all these things unless you create a conditional set to cater for each possible case.
20:12:43copperI see
20:12:44[Saint]and the user in turn gets a bunch of theme settings that seemingly no longer do anything :)
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20:43:15copperwhat does "tuner is tuned" mean, in the context of FM radio?
20:44:28Kohlrabicopper is copped!
20:44:38copperThey know that.
20:45:23gevaertspamaury: I've done some very basic testing to see how fast the USB stack was on PP
20:45:51gevaertsThat's a long time ago though. One thing I do remember is that DMA disk reads on ipod video are slightly faster than memcpy() from a ramdisk
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20:46:37lebelliumcopper: it tells you when you're on the right frequency or not
20:49:05copperok, thanks
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21:03:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:15:23copperabout Rockbox fonts:
21:16:30dcheartlyCity Offices or City off-ices?
21:19:20dcheartlyis it because the font isn't fixed-width?
21:20:27copperI don't know what's wrong with Rockbox's handling of fonts, but converted TTF fonts don't look right
21:20:35copperlike the word "Playlist"
21:21:03copperRockbox renders it as something that looks like "Play list" (with a whitespace between the two syllables)
21:21:15dcheartlytry Gohu Font :
21:21:44gevaertsIf converted ttf fonts don't look right but others do, it's the converter that's at fault
21:22:25copperI've settled on 14-Nimbus (which I don't think is a converted TTF font)
21:23:44copperthat one always looks good
21:25:13gevaertsYes, y, r, and k are clearly wrong on those screenshots
21:25:44gevaertsWhich font is that? I know some people have spent hours on tweaking convttf options to get things to come out right
21:26:00gevaertsPossibly [Saint] is one of them
21:27:06dcheartlyHey copper are any of these fonts monospaced?
21:27:11copperDejaVu otherwise looks great
21:27:18copperdcheartly: nope
21:27:46dcheartlycopper, so Rockbox has to do the rendering and calculate the distance between them based on their width?
21:28:01gevaertsRockbox uses bitmap fonts
21:28:23dcheartlyLittle boxes with each character, yes
21:28:29dcheartly−−OH! I see.
21:28:37gevaertsWe do have a conversion tool that takes ttf, and that tool is fiddly
21:28:38dcheartlyYou're right, this would be the conversion issue
21:29:51dcheartlyAlso, notice how only the "thin" characters have problems
21:30:04gevaertsWhich ones?
21:30:07dcheartlysuch as lowercase L, i, and y
21:30:13gevaertslowercase L is fine
21:30:19dcheartlyhow about i and y
21:30:31copperi looks fine
21:30:36coppery looks problematic
21:30:39gevaertsi is also fine
21:31:00copperthere's always more whitespace after a "y"
21:31:08gevaertsl and i tend to follow problematic letters, but look e.g. at "Plugins" or "Catalogue"
21:31:14copperanyway, anti-aliasing looks like shit on the Fuze+
21:31:55copper(it's got a really shitty display)
21:35:01 Nick DormantBrain is now known as SuperBrainAK (
21:39:36dcheartlyso Y and C are the problems, lowercase R seems to do it a bit too
21:39:41dcheartlyand lowercase K
21:49:16*dcheartly just noticed he has the wrong nickname
21:49:19 Nick dcheartly is now known as madcat1990 (~madcat199@
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23:03:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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