| 00:01:35 | jlbiasini | pamaury: I've started here: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaFuzePlusRescue |
| 00:03:38 | | Join grawity [0] (grawity@virgule.cluenet.org) |
| 00:04:56 | grawity | I see the site still says USB is broken for nano2g? :( |
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| 00:19:04 | lebellium | grawity: it doesn't look like it will be fixed anytime soon |
| 00:20:08 | grawity | Hm, so I'd better not plan upgrading |
| 00:20:19 | grawity | oh well, the ipod itself is not going to last until next year anyway :D |
| 00:20:32 | lebellium | why? dead battery? |
| 00:29:30 | grawity | no, the buttons are ... "worn out" if that's the right term; I have to press them really hard to react |
| 00:30:00 | grawity | on the other hand, rockbox seems to be doing wonders to battery use >_> |
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| 01:40:13 | pamaury | somebody wants the performance graphs for the fuze+ ? |
| 01:52:17 | TheSeven | hm, how many devices do we support that require a (software) FTL? |
| 01:52:25 | TheSeven | and how many of them haven't been fully figured out so far? |
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| 02:33:29 | pamaury | TheSeven: not a lot and a lot |
| 02:34:11 | pamaury | not figured out (at least): zen xfi2, rk27xx (at least two versions), many samsung devices |
| 02:35:08 | pamaury | i rhink the nano2g is the only one we have |
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| 03:55:57 | TheSeven | hm... I wonder how feasible it would be to just replace the FTL with something generic... |
| 03:56:43 | TheSeven | if we had MTP I'd say YAFFS2/Direct, but with MSC we would need a translation layer |
| 04:00 |
| 04:07:26 | pamaury | you mean just drop compatibility with the of ? |
| 04:07:33 | pamaury | mtp is clearly doable |
| 04:08:06 | pamaury | we have the code, just needs some refreshing |
| 04:15:24 | pamaury | TheSeven: what are the alternatives for flash filesystems ? |
| 04:16:02 | pamaury | and what is the difference between yaff2 and yaff2/direct ? |
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| 04:19:25 | TheSeven | pamaury: yaffs2/direct is basically yaffs2 for OS-less systems |
| 04:19:34 | TheSeven | i.e. a standalone implementation of it with minimal dependencies |
| 04:19:47 | TheSeven | the on-flash format is the same |
| 04:20:17 | TheSeven | hm, the memory usage of yaffs2 might be a problem |
| 04:20:38 | TheSeven | 1MB of RAM per gigabyte of storage is probably a bit too much for our purposes... |
| 04:20:49 | TheSeven | but maybe that can be optimized |
| 04:21:10 | TheSeven | IIUC it was developed with flashes from tens to hundreds of megabytes in mind |
| 04:22:52 | pamaury | yes that's a bit high |
| 04:24:44 | pamaury | what about using a generic FTL, how does that compare with such a solution ? |
| 04:26:11 | TheSeven | that might be more efficient memory-wise (the N2G FTL needs ~500K of RAM for 8GB of flash) |
| 04:26:21 | TheSeven | and it's probably easier to implement |
| 04:26:46 | TheSeven | but I don't particularly like the idea of FTLs at all |
| 04:27:38 | pamaury | yeah |
| 04:28:27 | TheSeven | from a "clean design" point of view: why emulate a fixed-size reliable device on top of an unreliable device, if you could just use an FS that can deal with unreliable media? an FTL has to reserve a significant amount of blocks (~5-10%) as spares to compensate for failing blocks, which both wastes space and makes it stop functioning once it's worn out to some degree |
| 04:28:51 | TheSeven | a flash file system just shrinks in size as the flash wears out |
| 04:29:13 | pamaury | indeed, the issue is to choose one which suits our needs |
| 04:29:24 | TheSeven | might not be terribly important with these 10K erase cycle flashes that we usually deal with, but in the light of modern flashes with more like 300-3000 cycles, this may get more important |
| 04:31:11 | TheSeven | samsung builds SSDs with TLC flash these days (yes, 3 bits per transistor, "tri-level" is actually nonsense, it's eight-level from a technical point of view) |
| 04:32:45 | TheSeven | I wonder how their reliability and endurance will be like in practice (I'm talking about 840 basic series) |
| 04:33:43 | TheSeven | so except for the memory usage, YAFFS2/direct seems like the best choice... for an FTL there's basically only yaftl, and I'm not sure how stable that is |
| 04:33:54 | TheSeven | we could of course just use the nano2g FTL ;) |
| 04:34:08 | pamaury | well, I prefer not to ;) |
| 04:34:23 | TheSeven | it's actually quite well-engineered |
| 04:35:51 | pamaury | maybe if were to choose the FTL solution that would make sense, we have it and it works |
| 04:36:17 | TheSeven | might possibly need to remove some page size and ECC data position hard wiring |
| 04:36:40 | TheSeven | and rockbox would need to pull in emCORE's nandfsck code :) |
| 04:36:56 | TheSeven | right now emCORE (or the apple bootloader) takes care of cleaning up after an unclean shutdown |
| 04:36:58 | pamaury | yaff website says the memory usage can be reduce with larger pages, I'm not too familar with NAND in general, what is the typical page size these days ? |
| 04:37:16 | TheSeven | 2K to 4K |
| 04:37:21 | TheSeven | (bytes, not bits) |
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| 04:38:32 | pamaury | I guess yaff also requires a memory allocator |
| 04:40:22 | TheSeven | apple's does as well |
| 04:40:51 | TheSeven | in apple's firmware, they had a separate one-time allocator just for the FTL, not used by anything else |
| 04:41:00 | TheSeven | they just reserved 600K or so of memory for it |
| 04:41:28 | TheSeven | I think my implementation of it gets away without one, but that actually ends up wasting space for non-maximum-size flashes |
| 04:41:48 | TheSeven | oh, and the unclean shutdown cleanup operation will need far more memory once again |
| 04:42:14 | pamaury | as long as you don't waste too much that's fine, or if you can estimate the size in advance, you bufalloc it once for all |
| 04:42:26 | TheSeven | (I didn't reverse engineer that but instead designed and implemented that from scratch based on my understanding of the structures... it ended up being seemingly more reliable than apple's ;) |
| 04:43:07 | pamaury | again for cleaning that fine: use a lot of memory at mount then release, that can work |
| 04:43:47 | TheSeven | hm, I guess yaffs, being basically a log file system, needs to keep a file index tree in memory to be able to do any directory enumerations with reasonable performance |
| 04:44:51 | TheSeven | hm, that Tnode tree looks like it could easily be compressed |
| 04:45:01 | TheSeven | similar to how I compress my hard drive bad block tables on the classic :) |
| 04:45:15 | TheSeven | which is in turn very similar to how ARM page tables work |
| 04:45:32 | TheSeven | i.e. encode large consecutive chunks adequately |
| 04:47:16 | pamaury | so if I understand correctly, yaff basically keeps the whole directory file in memory ? |
| 04:47:58 | TheSeven | at least mostly |
| 04:48:29 | TheSeven | this used to be generated while mounting, reading a lot of pages, which could take minutes |
| 04:48:36 | TheSeven | recent versions changed that |
| 04:49:18 | TheSeven | now it basically stores a snapshot of that index on the flash while unmounting to speed up the next mount |
| 04:50:16 | TheSeven | one could possibly make it rely on that on-flash index during normal operation... |
| 04:51:07 | TheSeven | or maybe we "just" have to design an even better flash file system from scratch... |
| 04:51:50 | roxfan | yes, we clearly don't have enough of them |
| 04:51:51 | pamaury | exactly my thought, I had some spare between 30pm and 32pm every day ;) |
| 04:52:08 | pamaury | *spare time |
| 04:52:54 | pamaury | there are not that many of them |
| 04:53:12 | pamaury | mostly jaff, logfs, jffs and the upcoming f2fs |
| 04:53:33 | pamaury | or maybe one of them was superseeded by ubifs |
| 05:00 |
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| 05:04:22 | pamaury | it seems to me that filesystems in general, (and this even more true for mp3 players) basically have two types of files: big binary blobs which are basically written at once and read many times are random or more likely sequentially; and small textual files that can get changes here and there randomly. You really want to take advantage of this if you can |
| 05:06:55 | pamaury | and if you are using something like mtp this is perfect: you know the sizes of the files in advance and the type of the file, you can take good decisions when you are actually writing because most of writing occurs via usb for us |
| 05:08:13 | pamaury | anyway, time to sleep |
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| 05:32:29 | wowaname | is there any way to rewrite the header to the ipod's disk |
| 05:32:45 | wowaname | i can view files in nautilus but can't copy anything to it |
| 05:32:53 | wowaname | and i can view files on the ipod |
| 05:35:48 | wowaname | D: i dont want to back up everything and format it |
| 05:36:57 | wowaname | crap |
| 05:37:02 | wowaname | ok goodbye |
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| 10:53:15 | copper | it would be really nice if it was possible to use %ss() in a conditional |
| 10:56:56 | copper | oh, it is! |
| 10:57:06 | copper | I must have been doing it wrong before |
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| 10:58:21 | copper | hmmm, no, I remember now: what doesn't work is: %ss(0, 2, %St(font))w |
| 10:58:27 | copper | hmmm, no, I remember now: what doesn't work is: %ss(0, 2, %St(font)) |
| 10:58:49 | copper | er |
| 10:59:25 | copper | %?if(%ss(0, 2, %St(font)), =, 14)<fourteen|something else> |
| 11:00 |
| 11:02:21 | pixelma | a font is just a remembered path not one of a set range of values (like "yes", "no" etc.). Does %St(font) give you anything back? |
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| 11:08:09 | pixelma | just thinking that it may give you a full path if at all and then you would need a different part of the substring |
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| 11:12:08 | copper | %St(font) returns the font's name |
| 11:12:26 | copper | it just doesn't seem to work in a %?if() conditional |
| 11:12:41 | copper | not the font path, the font name |
| 11:13:06 | copper | like "14-Nimbus" |
| 11:13:39 | copper | without the .fnt file extension |
| 11:14:15 | copper | using %ss() with %St(font) would allow me to make conditionals for font sizes instead of full font names |
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| 11:15:53 | Sovon | Is there any way I can set iPod like this? when I play something from Database > Album > track, then from the while playing screen if I press MENU button, it will take be back to the actual previous Album folder in databse, not the rockbox menu ? |
| 11:16:47 | Sovon | just like Apple firmwire did |
| 11:17:02 | Sovon | *firmware |
| 11:23:36 | Sovon | anyone please−−-a little help here |
| 11:24:17 | n1s | don't think there's such a feature for the db, it's there for the file browser |
| 11:25:54 | Sovon | isn't it possible to just go back to previous location instead of root rockbox directory ? |
| 11:28:43 | pixelma | Sovon: what happens if you press the Select buttpn? |
| 11:28:47 | pixelma | button too |
| 11:31:13 | pixelma | copper: maybe it treats the 14 in your example as number and then can't compare substring to number? I don' know that much about the %?if tag though and don't know if there's a way around it |
| 11:31:18 | Sovon | holy sit! thank you |
| 11:31:29 | Sovon | pilexma: thank you man |
| 11:33:02 | Sovon | It's about experience. I'm beginning to realist that more & more each day |
| 11:33:10 | Sovon | *realise |
| 11:34:47 | pixelma | thank our fine manual too (you could use the one for the Ipod Video since it's similar enough and there doesn't seem to be one for the Classic yet) ;) |
| 11:36:39 | Sovon | I didn't know there was a manuall.. |
| 11:36:45 | Sovon | I'll read it now |
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| 11:55:19 | * | copper is tempted to remove one metadata line on his Fuze+ theme, at the risk of further displeasing people |
| 11:56:08 | copper | http://i.imgur.com/67nx3an.png versus http://i.imgur.com/1C7fjz9.png |
| 11:56:32 | copper | I feel like the former is visually more balanced than the latter |
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| 12:07:50 | copper | decisions, decisions… |
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| 12:13:31 | copper | hmmm |
| 12:13:41 | copper | I could do a hack |
| 12:14:11 | copper | I could duplicate 14-Nimbus.fnt, rename it to something like 14-Googley.fnt |
| 12:14:44 | copper | and then I could do conditionals based on the chose font |
| 12:14:55 | copper | 14-Nimbus: display what I like personally |
| 12:15:04 | copper | er |
| 12:15:10 | copper | 14-Googley: display what I like personally |
| 12:15:21 | copper | 14-Nimbus: display what people want |
| 12:16:11 | copper | chosen* |
| 12:17:26 | copper | meh |
| 12:17:32 | copper | the number of conditionals would be insane |
| 12:26:41 | copper | hmm, not that insane |
| 12:50:39 | copper | meeeeh |
| 12:50:50 | copper | the font conditional doesn't seem to work for the backdrop |
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| 12:53:45 | copper | damn it |
| 12:53:47 | copper | :( |
| 12:53:54 | copper | it was a neat idea |
| 12:54:09 | copper | well |
| 12:54:12 | copper | I can work around it |
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| 13:09:48 | copper | nope, I can't |
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| 13:40:46 | copper | ok, screw it |
| 13:41:06 | copper | I have decided what I want for my themes, everyone else is free to modify them |
| 13:41:26 | copper | "Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away" |
| 13:41:42 | copper | that's my philosophy here |
| 13:41:45 | copper | bbl |
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| 15:10:05 | copper | is the radio signal strength unit really 'dBu'? |
| 15:10:14 | copper | Isn't it actually 'dBµV'? |
| 15:11:05 | copper | ah, no |
| 15:11:12 | copper | "u" stands for "unloaded" |
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| 15:11:55 | copper | pamaury: can you (or anyone else) give me an idea of dBu ranges for weak / good / strong? |
| 15:13:15 | lebellium | why do you need that? |
| 15:13:17 | lebellium | just do %?tr<%xd(Va)|%xd(Vb)|%xd(Vc)|%xd(Vd)|%xd(Ve)|%xd(Vf)|%xd(Vf)> |
| 15:13:20 | lebellium | with text instead of pic |
| 15:13:56 | pamaury | copper: not really, ask bertrik |
| 15:14:04 | copper | bertrik: ^^ |
| 15:14:29 | copper | lebellium: what? |
| 15:15:17 | copper | I have no idea how that line would be interpreted (what image/text will show up with what dBu value) |
| 15:15:47 | lebellium | just do %?tr<weak|strong|very strong>dBu or something like that |
| 15:15:51 | lebellium | you don't need actual values |
| 15:16:54 | copper | I assume that would only make rockbox display "weak" for the first third of the scale, "strong" for the second, and "very strong" for the third, without any regard to the actual strength of the signal |
| 15:17:10 | lebellium | yes |
| 15:17:37 | copper | my point is that I don't know that rockbox uses a scale that actually represents that |
| 15:17:41 | lebellium | the values may change from one player to another |
| 15:17:43 | lebellium | so don't use them |
| 15:17:46 | copper | maybe "strong" is actually already "very strong" |
| 15:17:49 | lebellium | let rockbox scale for you |
| 15:17:57 | copper | hmmm |
| 15:19:05 | lebellium | copper: my post here may interest you: http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showpost.php?p=633857&postcount=83 |
| 15:22:15 | copper | I see, thanks |
| 15:22:30 | copper | I was wondering if that last %xd(Vf) above was a typo |
| 15:24:06 | lebellium | It's not written clearly on the wiki www.rockbox.org/wiki/CustomWPS |
| 15:24:18 | lebellium | so I did not know before that the last one is only there for 100% state |
| 15:25:53 | copper | nothing is written clearly on the wiki! |
| 15:27:27 | lebellium | neither in the user manual. That's why I disagree when [Saint] wants to kill the CustomWPS wiki page in favor of the user manual :P |
| 15:45:29 | bertrik | copper: 70 dBuV is very strong, around 25-30 dBuV is approximately the switching point between mono and stereo (stereo), |
| 15:46:39 | bertrik | the scale doesn't go below 0 dBuV |
| 15:47:38 | bertrik | weak/ok/strong/very strong is all a bit subjective ofcourse |
| 15:48:47 | copper | thanks |
| 17:00 |
| 17:02:29 | jlbiasini | Hi all, I'm completely stuck on g#532. I even tried to write an empty touchscreen_to_pixels function with only "return BUTTON_NONE" in it. Even so the simulator seems to work just fine... Does anybody know how to make the touchscreen driver silent with a switch? |
| 17:02:32 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #532 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/532 : [touchscreen] touchdev_disable and wakeup implementation by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/32/532/4) |
| 17:04:35 | *** | No seen item changed, no save performed. |
| 17:32:44 | copper | goddamn rockbox busg |
| 17:32:46 | copper | bugs |
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| 18:11:18 | pamaury | jlbiasini: I don't understand what is your issue |
| 18:11:44 | pamaury | my guess is that the simulator works very differently than the device |
| 18:18:38 | pamaury | jlbiasini: which device are you using in the simulator to check this ? |
| 18:24:33 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision a56f1ca, 217 builds, 19 clients. |
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| 19:18:23 | jlbiasini | pamaury: I tested with the ondav777 |
| 19:22:38 | pamaury | ok, i'll try to have a look |
| 19:45:01 | jlbiasini | Is there someone around with a touchscreen device? It would helps if someone could test g#568 |
| 19:45:04 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #568 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/568 : [touchscreen] Test disable touch device while locked by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/68/568/1) |
| 19:45:37 | jlbiasini | just compile, install and see if the touchscreen still react while key are lock |
| 19:45:42 | jlbiasini | *locked |
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| 20:04:37 | jlbiasini | pamaury: same with M:Robe 500 |
| 20:09:33 | pamaury | I have the zen xfi2 but it's unstable and touchscreen driver is really suboptimal. I'll try though |
| 20:09:49 | pamaury | I'm not surprised it doesn't work in the sim: I'm pretty sure this function is not called by the simulator |
| 20:10:11 | jlbiasini | as long as it used touchscreen.c that should be enough |
| 20:11:18 | pamaury | have you check that this function is actually called ? |
| 20:12:50 | jlbiasini | no but I totaly wiped out the touchscreen_to_pixels to return always button_none And the simulator still did react to key event |
| 20:13:31 | pamaury | that's what I thought: it is not used by the simulator |
| 20:14:30 | jlbiasini | this is strange because the keymap of the simulator for ondav777 doesn't map touchscreen key |
| 20:14:56 | jlbiasini | so I assumed they where taken from the touchscreen code |
| 20:15:30 | jlbiasini | obvviously not |
| 20:15:47 | pamaury | what do you mean by "doesn't map touchscreen key" ? |
| 20:17:22 | jlbiasini | well if I understood correctly simulator use keymaps from uisimulator/buttonmap but uisimulator/buttonmap/onda-vx777.c only map the power_button |
| 20:18:04 | jlbiasini | still the keypad can be used to control the simulator |
| 20:18:41 | jlbiasini | I suppose the keypad is automaticly mapped for touchscreen on those devices simulator |
| 20:19:41 | jlbiasini | which would explain why they don't call touchscreen_to_pixels to get keys |
| 20:20:33 | jlbiasini | that's also make sense as the purpose of this function is to convert touch coordinate into a button |
| 20:21:14 | jlbiasini | which is not posible to input from the simulator |
| 20:21:32 | jlbiasini | so short version: I need a test on a device itself... :D |
| 20:22:45 | pamaury | no no, the simulator uses the normal keymap. The "keymap" in uisimulator/buttonmap/ is some simulator hack to map computer keys to physical keys (it's kind of replacement for the button drive) |
| 20:23:04 | pamaury | the touchscreen is handled directly: a clic is like a touscheen touch |
| 20:23:21 | pamaury | *button driver |
| 20:25:43 | jlbiasini | so I have to test it with moouse? |
| 20:26:12 | pamaury | yes |
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| 20:38:05 | copper | Does "tuner tuned" (%tt) mean that it's pretty much the best signal the FM radio can get for that station? |
| 20:41:06 | pamaury | copper: if it matches the intuitive meaning yes, it means the frequency is fixed and won't change. But you can get a better signal latter if you move for example, since the headpohnes act as an antenna |
| 20:41:44 | copper | yeah I mean the best signal at this particular place and time |
| 20:42:45 | copper | pheeew |
| 20:42:53 | copper | I think I'm done for today |
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| 21:01:05 | jlbiasini | pamaury: I just tested with the mouse, still no luck |
| 21:04:39 | *** | No seen item changed, no save performed. |
| 21:06:11 | jlbiasini | and with empty touchscreen_to_pixels the mouse still work as input in the sim. I must be missing something... :/ |
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| 22:06:49 | copper | did someone change CPU frequency and / or boosting on the Classic? It seems like scrolling metadata is a lot slower |
| 22:10:18 | bertrik | tuner tuned means that we detected an actual station at a specific frequency IIRC |
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| 22:51:05 | jlbiasini | pamaury: touchscreen implementation is very complicate anyway. It seems there is even some device that are unlocking softlock with their touchscreen. Impossible to implement a touchscreen disable while locked on those. I think that we should start only with touchpad devices. |
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| 23:00:39 | pamaury | jlbiasini: as I said the sim works differently, it doesn't use touchscreen_to_pixels |
| 23:04:35 | jlbiasini | ok, but still, the fact that softlock is handled by the touchscreen is a problem... |
| 23:04:43 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:05:07 | pamaury | I don't follow, where do you see that softlock is handled by the touchscreen ? |
| 23:08:14 | jlbiasini | pamaury: there is some ACTION_TOUCH_SOFTLOCK in action.h apps/gui/skin_engine/skin_touchsupport.c apps/gui/skin_engine/skin_parser.c |
| 23:10:07 | pamaury | softlock is more than action_touch_softlock, I'm confused, I really don't understand what is the issue. Is something in the actual trunk not working or is it only with your patches ? |
| 23:12:16 | jlbiasini | if some ACTION_TOUCH_SOFTLOCK is used on some device, then to unlock the device you use the touchscreen. That means that if we disable the touchscreen while locked it will lock the device forever... |
| 23:12:43 | jlbiasini | Or did I get something wrong? |
| 23:15:12 | pamaury | the way I see it is that it should work like with phones: if the screen goes off and touchpad/screen is disabled, you need to a press a physical button to enable it again |
| 23:18:46 | pamaury | and obviously you need to design a keymap which doesn't lock but that's not specific to touchscreen, you can easily make you device unsuable with a broken keymap |
| 23:19:05 | jlbiasini | well, I don't really know how the touchscreen interface is working. But if some devices are already using touchscreen for softlock that will be very difficult to implement because we will have to change their keymyaps one by one |
| 23:21:24 | pamaury | I don't even know what this ACTION_TOUCH_SOFTLOCK is but I don't think we have a such a thing as using the touchscreen to unlock and if we do that's completely stupid then |
| 23:21:49 | jlbiasini | true that! |
| 23:22:39 | pamaury | up to my knowledge, the action to softlock is ACTION_STD_KEYLOCK and it is only allowed in context with ALLOW_SOFTLOCK |
| 23:23:14 | pamaury | you want to check what this ACTION_TOUCH_SOFTLOCK is because usually ACTION_TOUCH_* are internal things. Maybe it means "no button and i'm softlocked" |
| 23:23:24 | pamaury | and thus display a "i'm softlocked" message |
| 23:24:08 | jlbiasini | ok so I will have to wait for someone to test my patch on a device anyway and in the meantime I will have a look to the other touchpad target |
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