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#rockbox log for 2013-08-20

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01:38:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:22:04*[Saint] has new theme related hilarity
02:22:16[Saint](when are we going to admit that memory management is fucked?)
02:22:31wowanamememory management is fucked
02:23:10[Saint]My theme renders FIle Browser useless, afaik, this is an entirely new symptom.
02:23:20[Saint]eeek, damn sticky shift.
02:23:23wowanamecan see theme?
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02:23:47 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 24.0/20130815180504])
02:24:12[Saint]Its not up on the themesite, no, I'd rather it not be.
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02:24:42JdGordon[Saint]: what have you done?
02:25:14[Saint]I didn't change anything in my theme. I just updated.
02:25:28[Saint]File Browser is absolutely useless, data aborts every time.
02:25:43[Saint]Normal functionality returns with cabbiev2
02:26:16wowaname>echo "Normal functionality " . "is absolutely useless, data aborts every time.";
02:26:45[Saint]I'm wondering when we're actually going to admit that there's something really terrible going on <somewhere>.
02:27:29wowaname[Saint]» that problem i'm having with random crashes, is that just me
02:28:24[Saint]wowaname: as far as I am aware, yes. It would help if when this happens you document the exact error (so someone can chase down where its failing) and the build revision.
02:28:56[Saint]With that information I, or someone else, can build said revision and investigate the map file to see where it fell over.
02:29:13[Saint](assuming it doesn't point to garbage)
02:29:40wowaname>exact error
02:29:45wowanameit just fucking crashes
02:29:47wowanamehold on checking rev
02:29:56wowaname0.2.3 r859
02:30:10[Saint]that's emCORE, that's not relevant to us.
02:30:34[Saint]Settings - Rockbox Info should tell you.
02:30:37wowanameoh fuck
02:30:48wowanamei pay so much attention
02:31:04[Saint]But without an actual data abort handle, "it just hangs" can't tell me too much, unfortunately.
02:31:17wowanamei have had one
02:31:18[Saint]If it prints a data abort handle, that's useful (potentially).
02:31:23wowanamewhich i have already posted yesterday
02:31:33[Saint]I'll check my logs, thanks.
02:31:47wowanamei'm checking the online log for you
02:32:10wowaname01:53wowanameAug 15 18:53:02 wowaname» one time error: tried to access database list and it returned an error with address 0x65029840
02:32:10wowaname01:54wowanamealso, today: undefined instruction @ 0805ee10 when running minesweeper
02:32:10wowaname01:54wowanamesalted with random hangs that make a buzzing noise through headphones and require a hard restart
02:32:36[7]damn, not very valuable information
02:32:57wowanamethat's all i have
02:33:02wowanameno specifics as to when it hangs
02:33:11wowanameabsolutely random
02:33:16[7]don't we print the PC address when running into a data abort?
02:34:01wowanamelet me see if there's any debugging info i can enable
02:34:05wowanamei dont think it would print
02:34:08wowanamebut worth a try
02:34:11[7]wowaname: wait a second... you're using the ~20 month old build shipped with emcore?
02:34:24wowanameyou mean there's a newer
02:34:51[7]try using something more recent, there are dozens of bugs that have been fixed since then, especially that "hang with buzzing audio" thing
02:35:00wowanameoh thanks
02:35:10wowanamei didnt know it was outdated. should have checked
02:35:22[Saint]Its not necessarily your fault.
02:35:31[Saint]The documentation is non-obvious about this.
02:35:53wowanamei could have still searched the site for updates, which i was planning to do
02:35:55[Saint]extract to root and see how you go
02:36:16[Saint]Searching the site for an updated build /probably/ wouldn't have yeilded much fruit.
02:36:27[Saint]Its semi-deliberately hidden.
02:36:47wowanameso it's just the files and not the image that are updated?
02:37:07[7]the .rockbox tree on the hard drive
02:37:13[7]not the "fallback" image in the flash
02:37:21[Saint]Its not technically installable via Rockbox alone (we rely on [7]'s third-party emCORE presently), so there's no real reason to make updated builds public.
02:37:29[7]emcore uses, if present, the image in /.rockbox/rockbox.ipod
02:37:40wowanameoh so that's the image
02:37:45wowanameOH I SEE
02:38:01wowanameif it cant find .rockbox it uses the fallback. durr
02:38:16[7]yes, so that you don't get stuck in a state where you can't fix it anymore :)
02:38:52[Saint]Perhaps the emCORE docs should point to autobuilder
02:38:58[7]I thought they did...
02:39:04wowanameis there a way to update the fallback? i know it would not be ideal since you could update to a nonfunctioning image
02:39:16wowanamebut is there a way to update or would you have to do uber leet compiling
02:39:17[Saint]Not without flashing a new image of emCORE, no.
02:39:27[Saint]and they come few and far between. For good reason.
02:39:43[7]hm, looks like there is indeed no link on our wiki. hmm.
02:39:47wowanamehold on is the only change in the version the .ipod image
02:39:53wowanamebecause that's all i'm gonna copy
02:40:00wowanamehold on
02:40:02wowanamei'll just compare
02:40:09[Saint]No, copy *everything*
02:40:15[7]lots of other stuff will have changed
02:40:17[Saint]Partial update *will* end in tears.
02:40:37[Saint]codecs and plugins should fall over at the very least if you tried that.
02:40:39wowanamei'm still gonna do a file compare
02:40:40[7]if you only swap out the rockbox.ipod file it *should* boot (but I wouldn't be sure), but audio playback wouldn't work because of outdated codecs etc.
02:41:06wowanamecus i is curious
02:41:17[Saint]Oh, yes, it'd boot - but, it wouldn't be much use as a DAP anymore. :)
02:41:24*[7] swears about that fly that's trying to sit down on his arm every couple of seconds
02:41:46*wowaname pats [7]'s back
02:41:46wowanameit'll be ok
02:42:25wowanameah crap DOS comp command sucks
02:42:40wowanamenow to back up configs and mess
02:42:53[7]this stupid thing has been annoying me for half a day now
02:42:54wowanamei did most of it already
02:43:11wowanamei'll just rewrite the dbs
02:43:22[7]config files shouldn't be overwritten by updating, they aren't contained in the zip file
02:43:32[Saint]Nothing user-generated gets removed during an update.
02:43:43[Saint]configs, database, plugin settings, etc.
02:43:52wowanamei am aware
02:44:08wowanamestill just checking to make sure i didnt edit an overwritable file
02:45:14wowanamecus i would be one to do that
02:45:51wowanamelike viewers.config
02:45:56wowanamewait that isnt copied lol
02:46:28*[Saint] just uses extract/replace all.
02:46:38[Saint]Its pretty much guaranteed not to fuck it up.
02:46:43wowanamei just did
02:46:44wowanamerestarting now
02:47:09wowanamek hopful that works
02:47:22wowanamenow to sort my nightmarish music/ folder
02:50:30[Saint]I'm not sure how much of it will be obvious to you, but the several hundred commits you just jumped should make a marked difference.
02:51:10*[7] figures it might even be more than 1000
02:51:14wowanameover 9000
02:51:45[7]hard to tell with these git version numbers
02:51:51wowanamei'll probably notice performance improvements hopefully
02:52:01wowanameany way to change the versioning
02:52:22[7]hm, probably more battery runtime than performance improvements
02:52:33wowanamethat's also good
02:56:40[Saint]indeed, battery runtime probably jumped a good 8 hours or so since then.
02:57:01[Saint]I can get 48~52h from mine.
02:57:17[Saint](which is really, really, really impressive)
02:57:46[Saint]I don't battery bench often, due to the length of time it takes, but its about time I did another.
02:57:48wowanamesounds that way
02:58:04[7]that's less than 10mA power usage on average... can't really be true, even the nano2g uses more :P
02:58:08[Saint]The "fat" Classic has a much larger battery, though.
02:58:18[Saint]850mAh vs 500, iirc.
02:59:22[Saint][7]: Hmmmm....perhaps benching without phones makes the difference?
02:59:32[Saint]I'd never really thought about that.
02:59:42[7]at those runtimes... probably a few hours
03:00:07[7]I'd guess 10-20% difference depending on headphones/volume
03:00:24[Saint]It never really made me blink due to the fact that for a large amount of time during playback the device is doing very little at all.
03:00:38[Saint]unboosted CPU, no disc spinup, no LCD, etc.
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03:00:57wowaname[Saint]» correct, 850
03:01:06wowanamethe menu wouldnt go up that high tho
03:01:10wowanamei wonder if that's corrected
03:01:24[Saint]It should be.
03:01:36[Saint]I have a patch floating around somewhere that tries to guess the right battery.
03:01:45[Saint]I should probably push that.
03:01:56wowanamegood luck
03:02:09[Saint](not that it makes much of a difference)
03:02:31[Saint]That number is only used in runtime calculation which is wildly inaccurate anyway, regardless of battery capacity :)
03:02:55wowanameit's a good estimate
03:03:09wowanameif it hits 50 or summat then i'm like ok i need to charge
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03:04:21[Saint]its a good estimate....except for the fact that mine tells me I have somewhere in the vacinity of 5400 hours runtime remaining on a full charge.
03:04:33[Saint]Which, back of the brain math tells me is about 90 hours.
03:04:50[Saint]or: "aint gonna happen" :)
03:05:23wowanamemine said -1 min
03:05:32wowanamebetter than Undefined in Adobe Flash
03:38:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:13:53wowanamehuh I: (my ipod) is mounted but it's like no i dont want to work
04:13:59wowanameipod froze
04:14:21wowanamelet us try again
04:19:28wowanametrying less retarded theme
04:19:44[7]hm, so that bug still exists and I just can't reproduce it anymore :/
04:19:54[7]time for someone to port the new USB driver
04:20:21wowanamei was assuming it was the theme i was using taking up a bit more memory than others
04:20:33[7]wowaname: did you have trouble with UMSboot not mounting properly (i.e. taking long to mount or whatever) during installation?
04:20:45wowanameyes it took 30s-1m to mount
04:20:54wowanamejesus fuck now windows wants to format it
04:21:16[7]ok, so you're one of the people affected by this bug, interesting
04:21:22wowanametime to backup and do this over
04:21:38[7]wowaname: you should be able to access it using the fallback image, or possibly using another PC
04:21:40wowanamehad this happen before
04:21:44[7]which windows version is this?
04:21:51wowanamelemme look
04:22:04wowanameVersion6.1.7601 Service Pack 1 Build 7601
04:22:06[7]does the machine have usb3 ports?
04:22:19wowanamethis happened before; the fat32 header got fubar
04:22:28wowanameif nautilus opens the disk then i'm ok
04:23:04wowanamemaybe not
04:23:11[7]I'm fairly sure that what you're seeing is a both windows and rockbox version specific problem
04:23:30[7]if you want to do me a favor, you could try out a newer UMSboot version just to check if that works properly now
04:23:42[7]because if it does, we might want to port its new USB driver over to rockboxc
04:23:45wowanameand even though i am trying to access the fs using a virtual machine, it will still be affected?
04:24:01wowanamewhat's the latest version number
04:24:09wowanamei'll search it
04:24:17[7]can you boot it into DFU mode?
04:24:27wowanamei can boot it
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04:24:47[7]use the bootstrapper file from this archive
04:24:52[7]and check if UMSboot mounts instantly
04:24:56wowaname[7]» i already have that version
04:25:40wowanamecrap i'm not gonna mess with it tonight. as long as it plays what's currently on it then i'm fine until tomorrow
04:25:51wowaname[7]» hold on i'll show you
04:25:59wowanameAug 14 21:01:35 TheSeven» the new one is in here, if you want to try if it works better/faster:!NAoChaZA!LvrFIyi-cyTiP40U6Du7ITJpvUEITxhH5VCO2sIyKn4
04:26:01[7]if you want to copy files, just run the rockbox fallback image from emcore's tools menu for now
04:26:12[7]well, did you get around to trying it?
04:26:20wowaname[7]» i am using that
04:26:20[7]if so, what were the results?
04:26:28wowanamethe results were as i said
04:26:29[7]so that one took 30-60sec to mount as well?
04:26:33wowanamei believe
04:26:49wowanameno wait
04:26:49wowanameno nvm
04:26:50DBUGEnqueued KICK wowaname
04:26:50wowanamei have it but i didnt use it
04:26:53wowanamei'll try it tomorrow
04:27:06wowanamei was like "this one works so i wont try the other"
04:27:12wowanameso yeah i'll tell you tomorrow
04:27:47wowanamesorry; i'm forgetful
04:28:43[7]ok, let me know if it works
04:28:47wowanamek i will
04:28:55[7]because that might point to a possible route to fix the rockbox USB problem
04:29:09wowanamedont wanna do it tonight cus it's 2200 and i'd have to copy over 2000+ songs and ~700 images again
04:29:14wowanametakes like 30m
04:29:14CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
04:29:14*[7] has the problem that the problem doesn't occur on his system at all, so he can't test fixes :P
04:29:26[7]you don't need to reinstall anything
04:29:39wowanameit wont overwrite antyhing?
04:30:05[7]it won't write anything before you drop in a .ubi file
04:30:27[7]and even if you do the installer should only update the emCORE version on the flash, or rather figure out that it's the same and do nothing
04:30:46wowanameeither way if i run into problems i'd rather deal with them tomorrow
04:30:49wowanamei'll let you know
04:31:42[7]and as I said, if you want to access the drive, just use the fallback image from emcore's tools menu
04:31:50[7]that's the old rockbox version that worked fine apparently
04:32:03[7]you can just dualboot it with the newer one :)
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04:36:25[Saint][7]: is there a new full emCORE release?
04:36:51[Saint]or a known good version from the nightlies?
04:39:28 Quit Substanzlos1 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
04:43:58[7]there haven't been important (for end users) changes since the last release
04:44:15[7]and some of the new features, such as the new USB interface, aren't really proven to work yet
04:44:49[Saint]SO, what do I need to do to test them?
04:45:07[Saint]DAmn I hate shift on this keyboard...
04:46:28[7]hm... would be more useful to get that stack ported to rockbox
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04:57:04[Saint][7]: is there a known good recent emCORE build?
04:57:34[7]there aren't any known issues IIRC
04:57:43[7]so just use latest, if you manage to build it
04:58:14[7]the latest changes don't seem to work well with the rockbox toolchain
04:58:40[Saint]awwww crap.
04:58:57[Saint]I have to build my own? I see autobuilder has been crapping out for some time :-S
04:59:07[7]yes, that's the rockbox toolchain problem
04:59:23[7]there's nobody maintaining that box anymore :/#
04:59:24[Saint]Do you have a binary lying around?
04:59:46[Saint]I could host the build box, if you'd like, too.
05:00:16[7]hosting isn't the problem, setting it up is :)
05:01:48CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
05:01:48*[7] builds a binary
05:02:08*[Saint] nods
05:02:20[7]that should be latest svn
05:02:33[Saint]awesome, thank you.
05:02:42[Saint]that was blazingly fast.
05:02:49[Saint]ccache doing most of the legwork I assume.
05:02:56[7]emcore doesn't take long to compile
05:03:05[7]it isn't quite as big as rockbox
05:03:48[7]opening a terminal, cd'ing into that directory, setting the right environment variables etc. took longer than the actual build
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05:38:13***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:38:24[Saint]Man, I really wish you could use emCORE to expose storage.
05:38:37[Saint](that isn't RAM)
05:40:20TheSeven[Saint]: we're pretty damn close to that
05:40:35TheSevenit's just some glue logic that remains to be written
05:40:37[Saint]Surely it can't have anything to do with me updating emCORE just now, but its taking forever to display the contents of the drive in Rockbox just now.
05:41:21[Saint]It just took about a minute to display the drive contents in Ubuntu
05:41:28TheSevendmesg output?
05:41:46*TheSeven suspects a bunch of "resetting device with id blabla" stuff
05:42:12[Saint]TheSeven would be correct
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05:45:12TheSeventhat's another side effect of the very same bug that's causing this mounting trouble on windows
05:45:37TheSevenit's some race condition between different endpoints
05:47:51TheSeven[Saint]: we already have an emCORE USB mass storage test app that provides a little ramdisk, but emcore apps can of course also just tell the kernel to unmount the disk and access raw sectors
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05:48:16TheSevenso it's just some glue logic that needs to be implemented to actually provide access to the hard drive through an emcore app :)
05:48:53TheSevenbasically replace everything that accesses a ramdisk pointer with some buffer management and hdd read/write calls
05:51:21TheSevenuser890104 has that on his todo list :)
05:59:20*user890104 just finished reading the backlog from the past hour or so
06:00:16user890104uhm yeah, if i find out what's the real reason for these bluescreens on w7x64 when using emcore's usb api, i should be able to complete the app
06:00:56[Saint]Bah. Screw Windows. :P
06:12:08Strife89Catlike typing detected!
06:14:12*user890104 says hello to [Saint]'s cat
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07:35:04BQhi people I'm trying to compile RockboxUtility-v1.3.1 from source on linux. The instructions refer to a config file in the tools dir, but none exists. Is there an updated guild to compiling it?
07:38:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:02:30[Saint]BQ: Why do you need to compile from head?
08:03:07[Saint]bluebrother (the maintainer) hosts some (infrequently updated) development binaries here:
08:04:40[Saint]You said "on linux", so, I guess that means "for linux" as well...
08:05:55[Saint]anyhoo - I'm pretty sure that "" does pretty much everything.
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09:27:44coppereven when putting *everything* into viewports, empty lines in the .wps file have an incidence on how the theme is displayed
09:29:47coppersome of my code only works when I have like a dozen empty lines in the middle of the wps file
09:30:51copperfollowing the cover art tags, actually
09:32:34[Saint]copper: I have only seen that with one specific touch-only tag.
09:32:38[Saint]May I see your code?
09:34:51copperhold on
09:34:59 Quit akaWolf (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
09:35:23copperit's hardly readable because I write every block on a single line, to prevent the scrolling bug I mentionned earlier (and possible other bugs)
09:36:44[Saint]That bug is definitely worth prodding JdGordon_ and/or kugel with after you have an FS entry up.
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09:38:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:39:44 Quit Provel (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
09:40:38copper[Saint]: this is very much work in progress
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09:40:53copperI'm tyring to determine what will NOT cause the bug
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09:50:37copper[Saint]: when working on the code, I span conditionals over several lines, with indentation, until I'm done, and then I put everything back onto a single line
09:56:11copperwith the 20 empty lines below the cover art tags, my code works
09:56:29coppertook me a while to figure out what was going on
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10:03:54coppergreat, everything works
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10:38:17copperwhat's the use of the "backdrop" setting in the .cfg file?
10:38:38copperwhy not just set %X() in the sbs, wps and fms files?
10:38:46copper%X() seems to work better hasn't always been there - I believe even the backdrop setting has been there before %X in the WPS. It's easily settable by the user, if you only use one backdrop, you won't need to declare it in three files, it's there in the recording sceen too, etc.
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10:53:15copperpixelma: the difference is that the backdrop that's defined in the .cfg file doesn't load when you copy a new theme onto the DAP, and then load that theme
10:53:19copperyou have to reboot
10:54:05pixelmasounds like a bug to me
10:55:19copperone of many :-/
10:59:40pixelmabtw. I too found that whitespace, blank or commented lines have an influence on the WPS look but I couldn't find a pattern behind it
11:02:33copperpixelma: it's like it draws invisible lines
11:02:44copperthe size of the chosen font
11:04:27pixelmayeah, seen that too with a non-bmp progress bar
11:07:40coppermeh, %X() doesn't seem to work better actually
11:24:29copperpixelma: I think the backdrop doesn't load before rebooting because Rockbox hasn't "registered" the new file yet, or something
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11:38:55copperlike the sim that doesn't see new files in the sim directory until you restart it
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12:14:57jlbiasiniwhere do I create my new setting menu for touchdevice in system or in general setting?
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12:15:44jlbiasiniit will group touchpad sensitivity, disable touchpad on hold, disable only touchpad on hold...
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12:16:39jlbiasinimy opinion is to insert is in general setting
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12:46:42*[Saint] finds it interesting that copper's theme assumes album art will always be present
12:46:53[Saint]'s a good way to piss users off
12:48:37[Saint]the theme assumes there's always going to be album art.
12:49:28[Saint]also, I suspect you may stop having issues if you move the viewport conditional statements to the top
12:50:02[Saint]the pattern I follow is usually: backdrop, preloads for bitmaps, fonts, viewport conditions, viewports
12:50:50lebellium[Saint]: even if you don't put conditional for album art, it will work, even when there is no album art.
12:50:52[Saint]Re: Album art - its great *iff* you have album art.
12:51:01[Saint]If you don't, you've wasted a tonne of space.
12:51:06lebelliumthat's true
12:51:23[Saint]lebellium: yeah, that's not what I meant at all.
12:51:27[Saint]I know it will work.
12:51:30[Saint]Its just weird.
12:52:04lebelliumHe should display another pic instead or use the wasted space to display other info
12:52:25[Saint]Many users only have album art if it happens to be embedded in one of the random mp3s they downloaded in 1990 from limewire :P
12:53:14[Saint]and, yeah, what I usually do is have two sets of metadata viewports.
12:53:28[Saint]One for "has AA" the other for, well.."doesn't"
12:54:12[Saint]So the metadata isn't positioned off to one side, or a gaping hole, or whatever.
12:54:42[Saint]Other than that, I'm very impressed by the font-checking conditions. That'
12:54:45[Saint]s a nice touch.
12:56:07copperif there's no album art, the backdrop has default art
12:56:23[Saint]Oh. Ugh. Ok.
12:56:39[Saint]Sorry, didn't see (for obvious reasons) the backdrop.
12:57:03[Saint]BTW: you can see me avoiding the bug you speak of here -
12:57:24[Saint]As far as I was aware, it only happened (at least, I could only create it) with this specific case.
12:58:28[Saint]In my testing I could use any tag there, except %Tl in conjunction with my variables, and it would work.
12:58:49[Saint]But in the above, if I remove the blanking, same thing...fat grey line in the middle of the art.
12:59:08[Saint]The fat grey line is still *there*, its just pushed out of bouinds.
12:59:21[Saint](as I suspect the case is with your theme as well)
13:00:36[Saint]You can also see it in additional places in that theme. In my case, it was only when I used %Tl with variable set/get (touch specific)
13:03:20copper[Saint]: also, using %?C<> crashes the sim in the fms
13:03:30copper[Saint]: also, using %?C<> in the fms crashes the sim
13:03:49[Saint]Is there a Flyspray ticket regarding this?
13:04:07copper10:49:29 UTC <[Saint]> also, I suspect you may stop having issues if you move the viewport conditional statements to the top
13:04:26copperI tried that, caused similar issues
13:04:38copperbasically I'm navigating blind because I don't know what the problem is
13:04:42[Saint]Well, if you haven't lodged a ticket, you probably should.
13:04:50copperso now that I've come up with something that works, I'd rather not touch it
13:05:20copper[Saint]: you can get up to date zips here:
13:05:45[Saint]If you have a completely reproducible bug (and, you have a few of them from the sounds of things), lodge it.
13:06:03coppertoo many to choose from :-/
13:06:04[Saint]Telling us about it in IRC is all well and good, but it'll ultimately be forgotten about.
13:06:39copperactually, I suspect most of the weird bugs that I encountered were all the same one: the blank line bug
13:07:04copperlike, one particular metadata line that would show with 14-Nimbus but not 19-Nimbus
13:07:29copperthe fms artwork bug is a separate one
13:07:54[Saint]I was just in the middle of typing something along the lines of saying the line blanking bug is a very good example of a ticket that should be lodged.
13:08:12[Saint]as well as the FMS art crash in the sim.
13:08:46copperI would need to isolate the blank line bug
13:08:50copperas much as possible
13:09:04copperbecause the entire code in the wps is rather complex
13:09:30copperthe code in its entirety I mean
13:09:42copperwith dual conditionals, about font size, and playback status
13:10:06copperoh and there's the scrolling bug
13:10:14[Saint]While that certainly couldn't hurt, there's absolutely nothing wrong with lodging a ticket that says "I use this version of Rockbox, and this theme <attached>; and this happens <example>; IO believe <this> to be the cause, or at least influential"
13:11:23[Saint]More data is great, sure, but you don't have to wrack your brains trying to establish the exact cause.
13:11:35copperI don't want to put off whomever would be motivated enough to look into it
13:11:40[Saint]Merely provide a repeatable failure case, which IIUC you can do.
13:12:07copperright now I'm waiting to finalize the themes
13:12:13*[Saint] nods
13:12:17[Saint]Sure. I understand that.
13:12:48copperthey SHOULD be finalized, but I often think of something else right after I've uploaded the themes :-/
13:13:03copperany time I release anything, actually :P
13:13:08*[Saint] knows that pain all too well.
13:13:21[Saint]"...if only I just..."
13:13:31[Saint]"...maybe I should..."
13:13:44[Saint]" would look better if I..."
13:14:37copperabout the artwork, I guess I want to encourage users to add it
13:14:41coppercover art*
13:14:51[Saint]Yeah, that's fair.
13:14:54copperand cover art in the fms *should* work, but doesn't
13:15:18copperI'm totally OK with taking the time to make FM artwork for my local radio stations
13:15:31copperI just wish it would work
13:16:26copperif I decided to scrap default artwork when there is none, and use the entire space for metadata, users might not understand that they *can* add artwork, and I wouldn't like the result, visually speaking
13:16:39[Saint]y' could probably just let the user define the viewport backdrop color and have an infinite amount of variations of the theme.
13:16:49[Saint]and force it everywhere else.
13:17:21[Saint]well...s/infinite/16million and something/
13:17:46*[Saint] will shut up now as he doesn't want to set copper off on anotyher coding rampage
13:17:47copperthat wouldn't work
13:17:59[Saint]Why would it not work?
13:18:37copperimages, text and the border on the top bar are relative to the bar's color
13:18:48copperthey're not shades of gray
13:18:49copperor white
13:19:04copperthey're shades of gray/white with an alpha channel
13:19:31copperand it really doesn't look good without that
13:19:41copperalso, I didn't choose the colors at random
13:19:46copperthey're all Google colors
13:19:53[Saint]Oh, I know.
13:19:55copperhence the name Googley
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13:20:12[Saint]I'm actually wondering about the licensing there...
13:20:21[Saint]But, less I know the better. :)
13:20:33coppercan a color be copyrighted?
13:20:57[Saint]the FMS art backdrop is quite clearly google-robbed.
13:21:02copperyou could also worry about the Apple-like themes that use actual graphics from Apple :D
13:21:16coppernot the antenna
13:21:20[Saint]ANy built from mine, don't.
13:21:35[Saint]And, I removed my Apple-clones for exactly that reason.
13:21:54[Saint]Even though what I did is perfectly legal, I decided to take them down as it encouraged others.
13:22:07copperif the background pattern (gray triangles) is a problem, I can change it
13:22:13[Saint]I painstakingly recreated that art by hand.
13:22:29[Saint]IFF I just dumped the images, that'd be problematic.
13:22:56[Saint]One could argue that creating pixel-perfect replicas by hand may also be problematic, but its technically "OK".
13:23:08[Saint]But messy enough for me to get a conscience about it.
13:23:19copperthat doesn't make sense
13:23:34copperif you manually re-create copyrighted works, it's still copyright infringement
13:23:50Torneyeah. if you look at the original and paint a new image to look like it, you've created a derived work
13:24:01[Saint]copper: ^
13:24:12[Saint]"technically OK", but...yeah.
13:24:19Torneit's not technically okay at all :)
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13:25:15[Saint]Blargh. I consulted license-experts in here for an age before I put those up.
13:25:32[Saint]And everyone said that while it was clearly fishy, it was technically fine.
13:26:01Tornee.g. it's a derived work if you paint a painting based on a photograph
13:26:08[Saint]Regardless, they're gone now, but I can't take down the umpteen dozen clones it spawned.
13:26:11Torneeven though the painting is far from pixel-perfect :)
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13:26:57Torneotherwise source code licensing couldn't work.
13:27:11Torneyou can't bypass the GPL by opening the source in one window and typing a new copy in another window ;p
13:28:32[Saint]Well, TIL: everyone that said it was ok for me to do so apparently had NFI what they were talking about. Yay!
13:29:05Torneyou might be able to do it with a clean-room approach: write a document describing what the ipod interface looks like in descriptive terms (without pictures) and then give that to someone who has never seen the ipod interface to draw
13:29:21Tornebut even that may not be sufficient in a court :)
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13:29:46Tornethat's how people cloned the IBM PC BIOS ;)
13:30:28[Saint]In the end, I may as well of just dumped the images as I wrote a small script that plotted each pixels located and color.
13:30:49[Saint]That was how I ended up with such amazingly accurate images.
13:31:07Torne..erm, then that's just a very obtuse way to copy their image :)
13:31:37Torneif what you end upw ith is substantially identical to the original, and you have seen the original, then basically no court will ever believe that's not a derived work no matter what process you used
13:32:04[Saint]They're clearly different (mine are better :P), but, yeah...there's a lot of similarity there.
13:32:09Torneif the people who cloned the PC BIOS ended up with 99% of the same actual machine code then they would've ruled that was copyright violation too :)
13:32:14[Saint](for obvious reasons described above)
13:32:40[Saint]The only reason I even went through with this all those years ago is because I was assured I was in the clear legally.
13:32:44Torneyeah, being a bit different is not a sufficient defense
13:32:58Torneif you are different enough to the original then your derived work may be entitled to its own copyright
13:33:09Tornebut you still have to have permission from the original copyright holder to have created the derived work in the first place
13:33:29[Saint]Well...where were you ~3 years ago? :)
13:33:49Tornewhoever told you otherwise clearly doesn't know how any licenses work :p
13:33:50[Saint]You could've prevented the flood of shitty iPOd clone themes based off my shitty iPod clone theme. :P
13:34:07Torneif this wasn't how copyright law worked then all open source licenses would be compeltely worthless
13:34:43[Saint]I would need to trawl my logs, but, it was quite a number of people whom assured me a full recreation even if largely pixel perfect was ok.
13:35:27Torneit's not exactly unusual for people on the internet to not understand copyright :)
13:35:29[Saint]I doubt I'll put much effort into that, though. Its gone now. I may have started a horribl;e trend, but at least I'm no longer part of it anymore. :)
13:35:45[Saint]Torne: but, people *here*?
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13:37:14[Saint]I don't mean just anyone responded and I took the first answer and ran with it either. :)
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13:43:29[Saint]also, copper, fwiw, you can copyright color...and yeah, that is shit.
13:44:09[Saint]example: Cadbury's purple, or (in NZ at least) the yellow from The Yellow Pages phone book.
13:44:51lebelliumis the Rockbox yellow copyrighted ? :D
13:44:52TorneThat's a trademark/trade dress, not a copyright, probably
13:45:20copper[Saint]: I could do something very spooky: replace default cover art with a picture of me :D
13:45:24copperCOPYRIGHT THAT
13:45:40[Saint]Replace it with a picture of your wang.
13:45:42Torneyeah. it's a trade dress mark. nobody else is allowed to use that shade of purple for marketing chocolate. but you can use it for anything else you like.
13:47:48[Saint]Here, I'm looking at "The Cadbury device (I assume this is the logo?) and the color purple are trademarks of Cadbury Inc. blah blah blah, copyright <half-ripped-date>"
13:49:01Tornethe specific design of that wrapper is copyrighted, yes ;)
13:49:16Tornein addition to the colour, and several of the logos/marks/devices being trademarked
13:49:25TorneIP is complicated :)
13:49:25[Saint]IO read that as "the color purple" is copyrighted.
13:49:30[Saint]That's very vague.
13:49:36[Saint]Thanks for clarification.
13:50:54[Saint]copper: regarding embedding weird shit in themes - its certainly been done before. I'll leave the imagination up to you.
13:51:15[Saint]My iLike theme for example wore a party hat on the album art on Rockbox's birthday. :)
13:52:13[Saint]Another version replaced all the text with "smurf" on April 1st (an old Rockbox April Fools joke)
13:52:29[Saint]Go nuts. Embed weird shit. :)
13:53:54[Saint]It was rasher that gave me the party hat idea.
13:57:05[Saint]Who do I need to talk to about getting the least permissions possible that would allow me to nuke spammers on the forums?
13:57:13[Saint]Zagor perhaps?
13:57:25[Saint]I seem to be pretty good at spotting the bastards.
14:03:27[Saint]Anyway, yeah. If I could nuke the occasional spam account I see, that'd be great. I have some degree of experience with SMF administration.
14:05:54pamaurybertrik: yesterday I was thinking about the stfm1000 again, since I have basic support for it I would like to merge it but there is still an issue: how do we handle the "digital radio part"
14:06:08pamaurybecause we get samples but we need to playback them
14:06:35pamauryit would be better to have digital radio support in rockbox otherwise it will be a massive mess I think
14:06:56pamaurybut radio is already a mess so I don't know what to do
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15:21:30copperdoing graphics is fucking exhausting
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16:40:22coppercopyright aside, does this work, visually?
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16:44:11[Saint]I think so, yes.
16:44:38[Saint]I would do:
16:45:03coppernever mind the metadata
16:45:06coppermy question is, does the photograph look weird relative to the rest of the design
16:45:26[Saint]aha, fairly, yes.
16:46:06copperI can't see shit anymore
16:46:12copperbeen at this too long
16:46:25copperyou have to admit, it's a beautiful photograph
16:46:37copperbut it kind clashes with the rest, doesn't it
16:46:40[Saint]I know it makes it more difficult for you, but, I wouldn't (and don't) bother supplying a fallback image.
16:46:41copperit steals the show
16:47:22[Saint]And, yes, its very "noisy", compared to the rest of the theme.
16:47:55*[Saint] hopes that isn't lost in Translation
16:48:46lebelliumwhat translation? We think and dream in english \o/
16:49:29lebelliumI would rather put a vinyle or CD pic instead
16:50:10[Saint]You dream in...? Wow.
16:50:18[Saint]Even the French hate French. :)
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16:52:42lebelliumor something conceptual
16:52:49lebelliumbut not a pic of existing gear
16:54:09copperI love that picture though
16:54:19copperfuck it
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17:07:32copper[Saint]: is this CC license compatible with the Rockbox Themes one?
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17:11:14copperI'm gonna say yes
17:13:56Tornecopper: that's the exact license we link to for the themesite.
17:14:03Torneif it's not compatible with itself we have a problem ;)
17:14:12copperI'm very tired
17:14:25copperI've looked at this thing so much, I could puke
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17:23:30[Saint]copper: Yep. It is indeed. SO much so, its the same one.
17:23:51[Saint]Argh. Crap. ...what Torne said. :)
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18:19:32SovonHaldercopper: I couldn't talk toy you about the themes yesterday & I couldn't ever see replies on IRC because of shitty problems on my ISP end. So I wanted t ask you if there is any useful reason you changed 'next' with 'codec/bitrate' ?
18:19:51copperpeople think it's more useful / important
18:20:20[Saint]I'd like to meet those people and smack them.
18:20:34[Saint]Knowing the next track is far more useful then the codec/bitrate
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18:21:00SovonHalder'You create themes for your own purposes. And if people like them, it's a surprise' it was something like said that to me ...didn't you ?
18:21:04[Saint]Hey, I didn't tell you to change it. ;)
18:21:18copperthere are two other reasons for it
18:21:19[Saint]SovonHalder: he did, yes.
18:21:48pamauryseriously who cares about codec/bitrate ?
18:21:49copper1) it allows me to display the release date on a line separate from the album title, where it would make the line too long
18:22:08[Saint]pamaury: "people", apparently
18:22:20copper2) I forget what 2) is
18:22:21SovonHalderyou said, iPod classic can show them at once in different lines
18:22:34copperI removed one line
18:22:49copperbecause the screen was too crowded and unbalanced, with 6 lines
18:22:59SovonHalderwho needs to see their bitrate & codec while listening to a song? does it sound better? I don't know really
18:23:00lebelliumcodec/bitrate is more important than next song. MP3 VBR V0 powaa
18:23:05[Saint]My themes only show codec/bitrate in the "no album art" case, and only because I have an extra line available there that looks weird blank.
18:23:15[Saint]I really don't see it as being genuinely useful information.
18:23:37lebelliumI need SovonHalder
18:23:43copperlebellium wants codec information because he pirates music from shady sources :P
18:24:21*[Saint] would love to know a genuine use case for knowing the codec/bitrate
18:24:36copperbecause he doesn't know wtf he downloads
18:24:39[Saint]Do you have multiple bitrates/encodings of the same track? :)
18:24:41copperhe just grabs stuff
18:24:57copperhe has a petabyte of shitty MP3s
18:25:12[Saint]"Awwwwww, shit, this is the 192kbps version, I wanted the 256kbps version...dammit"
18:25:19[Saint]<switches tracks>
18:25:24copperthis is driving me nuts
18:25:26SovonHalderno seriously....people who always plays audiophile quality, I give a rts ass to bitrate or codec...i know all of them are in lossless format ..i don't care about the codec..almost among 2000 songs 1990 songs are in ALAC...5 are in FLAC the rest is in mp3 320 CBR
18:25:38lebelliumI sometimes do kind of ABX tests on my Rockboxed players to compare codecs and bitrate efficiency
18:25:40copperthat's what I said
18:25:57[Saint]lebellium: there's far better tools for this
18:26:12*funman wonders if this would be a topic for #rockbox-community
18:26:20copperSovonHalder: ok, if I switch the last line to "next track", I will have to display the release date only when pausing
18:26:20jlbiasiniwhen you have a lot of different codec it can be usefull, for example once I realize The some encoding didn't worked and I had a lot of flac on my player that was taking all the place
18:26:21pixelmabitrates/encodings of the same track <- I have because of storage restraints and also hwcodec target ;)
18:26:30Torneif you're ABXing then you need to *not* be able to see the codec/bitrate ;)
18:26:42[Saint]^ this
18:27:11jlbiasiniso to check everything is in mpc it can be usefull but you can go to file properties for that I thing
18:27:13[Saint]pixelma: right, but, do you have them all on the same device? :)
18:27:19SovonHalderDo you have multiple bitrates/encodings of the same track? HA HA LOL
18:27:31[Saint]I do, sure.
18:27:34pixelma[Saint]: usually not
18:27:35[Saint]But not on the same device.
18:28:35[Saint]I seriously want someone to give me a genuine use case for knowing the codec/bitrate. I'm genuinely curious as to why whoever said its more useful than the next track info thinks this.
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18:28:50copperok how about this: I remove the first line, put the tracknumber before the track title, then date / codec on the 4th line and next track on the 5th line
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18:29:48*[Saint] always thought: "01 - Track Name" was the accepted method
18:30:03SovonHalderthat's what I like
18:30:13SovonHalder"01 - Track Name"
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18:30:43SovonHalderwhat about the total duration then?
18:30:52[Saint]copper: If its any consolation, I once made the mistake of asking about preferred metadata layouts too :)
18:31:16copperSovonHalder: you have the remaining time on the bottom right
18:31:19[Saint]SovonHalder: personally, I don't list it
18:31:27[Saint]I have elapsed time/time remaining
18:31:36gevaertsYes you can!
18:31:40gevaertsAlternating sublines!
18:31:45[Saint]pffffff..just make a 6pt font :)
18:31:47coppergevaerts: that is horrible
18:31:48SovonHalderjust remove the codec/bitrate
18:31:53SovonHaldereverything is solved
18:32:00copperpeople will bitch about it
18:32:07copperalso, THE DATE
18:32:08[Saint]Until someone cries about missing codec/bitrate
18:32:08SovonHalderat least you won't
18:32:18gevaertscopper: which is why you make a theme *you* like and ignore complaints :)
18:32:25[Saint]^ this
18:32:31SovonHalder^ this
18:32:54SovonHalderalready..what you did, is B-E-A-utiful
18:33:39[Saint]The general Rockbox philosophy of "If people like it, great, if they don't, fuck 'em" also applies very well to themes.
18:34:05SovonHalder^ this
18:34:18copperstop agreeing when you keep disagreeing
18:34:21SovonHalderI know copper personally likes next more than codec/bitrate
18:34:31SovonHalderwhat ?
18:35:43copperSovonHalder, lebellium, you both disagree with my choices, so stop agreeing THAT IT SHOULD BE MY CHOICE :D
18:35:50SovonHalderLook...all I can do is to request you. the decision is upto you of course..if you change it, it would be great, and if you don't I'll just have to deal with it
18:36:13[Saint](or, learn to make the trivial changes requested)
18:36:25 Quit DexterLB (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:36:35[Saint]{most of which equate to substituting one tag with another}
18:36:48lebelliumcopper: the thing is that as I told you, I only use my own themes. So even if I find your theme beautiful and even though I find bitrate/codec more important than next song, I won't use your theme. So don't bother with my opinion :)
18:37:21SovonHalderthen stop giving suggestions please
18:37:42[Saint]The past ~10 mins is a beautiful example of why I pretty much stopped asking people what they wanted and started telling them what they're getting instead. :)
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18:38:52[Saint]05ac Apple iPod Recovery
18:38:59[Saint]errr, whoops.
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18:39:23lebelliumAnd to troll a bit: iBasso just released a DX50 with a "rockbox-like" WPS which displays bitrate. They're right! :D
18:40:00copperthose are for audiophools
18:40:06copperaudiophools are stupid
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18:40:30Torneman that thing looks ugly and dumb
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18:40:54SovonHaldercopper: apart everything, please just give your personal opinion on which is more important - next track / codec|bitrate. [ignore all these suggestions about who wants what..etc.]
18:40:57*[Saint] particularly likes the excessively huge buttons
18:41:04[Saint]where like == hates with a passion
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18:42:19[Saint]lol: Reference DAP
18:42:33[Saint]...what the heck is that supposed to mean?
18:42:44[Saint]This is supposed to be the basis of all other DAPs?
18:42:48*[Saint] hopes not.
18:43:14copperok no it's ugly
18:43:25jlbiasinihey while you are at trolling. I'm implementing a new menu entry for all touch devices that would regroup all options related to them (touchpad sensitivity, touchdev_disable_on_hold, all touchscreen related stuff, later disable only touchdev on hold) the troll is about what should be its name: i have Touch controls any other ideas?
18:44:15jlbiasinilebellium: I'm sick of all those low cost device :D
18:44:17copperthis is fucking ugly
18:44:25gevaertsCan we please stay on topic?
18:45:18[Saint]jlbiasini: shouldn't it explicitely be touch*pad* settings?
18:45:26[Saint]eeew, *explicitly
18:45:38gevaertsToday's backlog is basically unreadable for those who want to actually follow rockbox development
18:45:54lebelliumgevaerts: yes but SovonHalder and copper are not on #rockbox-community :)
18:46:02gevaertslebellium: I don't care
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18:46:53jlbiasini[Saint]: no because touchdev settings will be common to all touch devices (touchscreen + touchpad target)
18:47:09Sovonit's my ISP again....did I miss any answer from copper ?
18:47:21[Saint]logs in the topic
18:47:32jlbiasinior do you means it should change name depending on wether its touchpad or touchscreen?
18:47:50 Quit SovonHalder (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
18:48:34Sovonsorry...what ?
18:49:36scorche|shSovon: there are logs of this IRC channel that are kept - the link to those logs are in the topic
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18:51:43[Saint]jlbiasini: what touch-specific settings already exist?
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18:51:54[Saint]Off the top of my head, I can't think of any.
18:53:18[Saint]Hmmmm....MRobe and Hifiman's are lacking manuals.
18:53:24[Saint](yet have entries)
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19:07:58Sovoncopper: I'm sorry if I'm making conversations unpleasant. I really don't want to. So I won't bother you about if you don't wish to do something but tell me if you will be willing to change that in future ? So that I can keep hanging around ABI thread
19:08:28copperSovon: I'm working on making two different profiles within the same theme, like with the Fuze+ theme
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19:20:42copperok no, I can't do the profile thing. Yet another Rockbox bug.
19:20:58copperI'm just gonna comment the alternative code
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19:22:17[Saint]Please Note: Unreported bugs are exceedingly hard to fix.
19:23:48Sovoncopper: so far from your work, I've become a fan of yours. I was in love with your themes as long as you did those by your own decision which was until until three days ago... I just want to tell you this because I will like what you like−−- DON'T GIVE A SHIT BOUT OTHER'S PRERERENCES, MAKE THEMES HOW YOU LIKE. PLEASE
19:24:12scorche|shSovon: send a PM with that - it doesnt belong in this channel
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19:31:40Sovonoh! sorry..
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19:36:18jlbiasini[saint]: touchpad_sensitivity (i'm planning to rename it to touchdev_sensitivity), I think that there is also the setting for whether a touchscreen is absolute point or button
19:37:08*[Saint] really dislikes touchdev
19:37:44jlbiasiniany better idea?
19:38:00[Saint]I don't see the need to change it at all.
19:38:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:38:55jlbiasinithe point is to group all setting related to those device (which are going to be the same)
19:39:51[Saint]Right. But, I don't see why that means it needs to be renamed.
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19:42:43copperok I managed to do it anyway
19:45:15jlbiasini[Saint]: given the number of alternative names that where offered touchdev is still the prefered one!
19:45:47[Saint]I still have a hard time understanding why it needs to change at all.
19:45:54[Saint]what's wrong with "touchpad"?
19:46:32jlbiasinithe setting apply to touchpad AND TOUCHSCREEN
19:47:12copperThis is the default, when "Settings -> Themes -> Status bar" is set to "off":
19:47:24copperThis is with "status bar" set to "top" or "bottom":
19:47:27copperSovon: ^^
19:47:38copperso you don't have to manually edit the themes
19:48:10copperDon't answer that.
19:48:26[Saint]jlbiasini: ok, then, so, why not just "touch_*"?
19:48:52*[Saint] maintains that touchdev is both crap, and meaningless, and will translate poorly/not at all
19:51:07jlbiasinitouchdev isn't to be translate, this is the code (I have nothing againt touch_), the settings menu name would be touch controls
19:53:22[Saint]Oh, aha. I was mistaken. I thought you were asking for the name of the setting's menu entry.
19:53:51[Saint]anyhoo, I prefer touch_*
19:55:43jlbiasiniI am, that is why I wrote: "i have Touch controls any other ideas?"
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20:05:55Sovoncopper: aw man
20:06:01Sovonf a n t a s t i c
20:06:11copperwho's your daddy?
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20:06:16Sovonwhere do I get the one ?
20:06:19Sovonyou are :P
20:06:50Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
20:07:14gevaertsNow *please* stay on topic
20:08:30copperare rockbox themes not on topic?
20:08:46jlbiasinigevaerts: any ideas? is Touch controls good enough? What about Touch interface?
20:09:07Sovonplease gimme links for the themes
20:09:59coppernot yet
20:10:06copperI'll let you know
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20:28:03scorche|shcopper: comments such as "who's your daddy?" are most definitely not
20:29:46scorche|shso, i am only going to say this once...this channel is for Rockbox development and support - any thing *not* related to Rockbox or "social chat" belongs somewhere else
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20:37:39copperSovon: I don't know if you got my PM, since you didn't answer. Just bookmark , the latest version of Googley will always be there.
20:38:37copperGet the "Classic" version, that's for the iPod Video/Classic ports. The FuzePlus version, obviously is for the Sansa Fuze+.
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20:48:09Sovonno..I answered
20:48:15SovonI thank you again
20:48:29copperwell I didn't get it, probably because your nick is not registered
20:48:52SovonI just installed & the toggle between them on status bar off & top/bottom is fantastic
20:50:10Sovonthank you...I check that thread on ABI 2 or 3 times a I'll hang around..& keep me posted.
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20:58:22lorenzo92ok now I decided is time to finally put to head R1 port polishing it as much as possible ;)
20:58:41lebelliumgood decision :D
20:59:37lorenzo92I need to think a way of port the safe mode to R1 in an identical way wrt R0 i.e. auto shutdown and cable detection ;)
21:00:02lorenzo92it is basically working I only need to write (perhaps) a C program to detect the cable via GPIO
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21:02:36lebelliumand at some point we'll have to decide which screen orientation!
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21:04:26lorenzo92i think that right now it's the best choice, screen is used in a more clever way. to be clear also for the others, now we are portrait while OF uses landscape only (if I'm correct)
21:04:34lorenzo92never used OF so far :D
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21:13:44jlbiasinipamaury: ping?
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21:37:59copper2013/08/20 10:58:50 UTC <[Saint]> But in the above, if I remove the blanking, same thing...fat grey line in the middle of the art.
21:38:05copperbtw, did you file a bug for it?
21:38:16copperbug report
21:38:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:38:47lebelliumlorenzo92: so we're sure for the portrait orientation? pamaury too? I don't want to start a 240x400 theme and then it becomes 400x240 :P
21:42:30jlbiasinigevaerts: could you test g#569 on your gigabeat-fx, please?
21:42:33fs-bluebotGerrit review #569 at : [touch devices]Disable touch device on softlock/keyhold. by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/69/569/10)
21:42:54gevaertsjlbiasini: no :)
21:43:00gevaertsI can try in a gigabeat F
21:43:09gevaertsThere's no such thing as a gigabeat FX :)
21:43:45jlbiasiniok so I guess it's f then :)
21:44:32gevaertsF and X are basically two different models on the outside with the same hardware on the inside
21:44:38jlbiasiniah yeah f and x are just 2 series
21:45:26jlbiasiniit's funny because fx seems like a cool name for a model
21:46:54gevaertsWhat should I look out for?
21:47:03jlbiasinigevaerts: once you have compile/install it. You can go to WPS and then lock the device.
21:48:00jlbiasiniThe touchpad should still cause rockbox to react and display a keylocked message
21:48:45jlbiasinithen go to setting > general setting > touch controls > disable touch on hold > yes
21:49:21jlbiasininow the hold in wps should ignore touchpad...
21:50:45jlbiasiniI know it does'nt make much sense on the gigabeat but it's just to have a unified way to treat touchpad/touchscreen devices
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21:53:42gevaertsjlbiasini: with default settings, hold just doesn't work any more. The lock icon appears, but that's it, the thing still fully responds to touches
21:54:23gevaertsAlso regular button presses
21:54:50jlbiasiniYeah I just thought about it, actually... :/
21:54:55gevaertsAnd I don't have general setting > touch controls
21:56:01jlbiasinioh that's strange :( Looks I still have some work then!! Thank you for the test...
21:56:09gevaertsHave fun :)
21:59:22gevaertsjlbiasini: I don't know how these things work, but the X has "real" buttons, not a touchpad
21:59:46gevaertsBoth the F and the X are handled by the same build, so maybe you need to do something clever there
22:00:37jlbiasiniI don't think so because the whole implementation depend on whether HAVE_TOUCHPAD is defined or not
22:01:03jlbiasiniso on X if it doesn't define touchpad there is just nothing
22:01:55jlbiasiniI know why lock wasn't working
22:02:00jlbiasinistupid error
22:04:20gevaertsWell, it's the *same* build, so if it's defined for one, it's defined for the other
22:05:04jlbiasiniI think I saw some quite strange code about that in button_target.h
22:06:08jlbiasiniyou are probably true
22:06:17jlbiasiniI will have a look to it
22:08:16wodzpamaury: did you look at rk27xx hwstub?
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22:30:29jlbiasinilol gigabeat-fx build has HAVE_TOUCHPAD_SENSITIVITY_SETTING but no HAVE_TOUCHPAD #fail!
22:31:54gevaertsI don't see HAVE_TOUCHPAD for the mr100 either
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22:32:58jlbiasinimr100 is a touchpad target?
22:33:16gevaertsHmm, well, probably not technically
22:33:19jlbiasinioho still more work! :S
22:33:22*gevaerts thinks
22:33:33gevaertsH10 definitely is though
22:34:44jlbiasinigevaerts: is there and easy way to check if we are building for f or x?
22:34:58gevaertsIt's the same build!
22:37:58jlbiasiniso what does touchpad sensitivity on X?
22:39:11gevaertsNo idea
22:40:02jlbiasiniactually the code itself already has touchpad specific code so I will just add my specific stuff also and define it as HAVE_TOUCHPAD target
22:40:35jlbiasiniHAVE_TOUCHPAD was just a tag till now it does add any special stuff
22:42:00jlbiasiniappart from those settings
22:42:09kugellorenzo92: ping
22:43:42jlbiasinikugel: would you have time to comment push g#518 and g#520?
22:43:44fs-bluebotGerrit review #518 at : [Plugins] Stopwatch PLA integration by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/18/518/3)
22:43:45fs-bluebotGerrit review #520 at : [Plugins] text_editor PLA integration by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/20/520/2)
22:46:31pamaurywodz: not yet
22:46:38kugeljlbiasini: please use "xxx: yyy" style instead of "[xxx] yyy" for commit messages
22:47:21jlbiasiniAh ok I must be anoying people for a while with that:D
22:51:42kugeljlbiasini: sorry but g#520 seems unecessary
22:51:43fs-bluebotGerrit review #520 at : Plugins: text_editor PLA integration by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/20/520/3)
22:52:03jlbiasinikugel: ?
22:52:48kugeltext editor is fine as is
22:54:04jlbiasinion the fuze+ it doesn't work because ACTION_STD_MENU isn't defined
22:54:14jlbiasininot enough key!
22:54:19wodznah, dumping raw nand content to SD is so painfully slow on rk27xx :/
22:54:55kugeljlbiasini: that's a problem with the fuze+ then
22:55:06kugelperhaps pamaury simply forgot about it?
22:55:39jlbiasinino I did the mapping and there was no possibility to map it otherwise
22:56:26kugelbut how can it be mapped in the text editor?
22:56:29pamauryyeah defining std menu on the fuze+ is a bit awkward, maybe it could be mapped to bottom left or bottom right
22:56:30jlbiasiniI don't understand how this can be a problem, a plugin shoudn't rely on general mapping, should it?
22:57:12kugelit depends, if it presents a list widget the core list context is a perfect fit
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23:00:17jlbiasiniok, then it will stay partly boken on the fuze+, it's not that important... mapping it to bottom left or bottom right would reduce greatly the navigation in list so it's not suitable either
23:01:29kugelhow does the touchpad work on the fuze+?
23:01:36jlbiasinikugel: making it depend on PLA only for fuze+ could be a turnaround...
23:02:08kugelsimilar to touchscreen grid mode?
23:02:55pamaurywith a major difference: it has printed symbols for top left (back) and top right (play pause), so it's confusing to map them to something else
23:03:14 Nick DormantBrain is now known as SuperBrainAK (
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23:03:38pamaurywe can do anything with it (not just 3x3) but currently we map it as 3x3 with four directional keys, play/pause, back and select + two extra buttons (bottom left and bottom right)
23:03:52pamauryit has dedicated volume keys too
23:03:53jlbiasinibut left and right had to be mapped to cancel/select for consistency reason
23:04:05kugelso what's wrong with bottom left or right?
23:04:13kugelbottom left seems like a good pick
23:04:56 Quit lorenzo92 (Remote host closed the connection)
23:05:07jlbiasinithey are use in list to move big step up and down which on a device with microSD and up to 16GB intern memory is mandatory
23:05:40kugelno target has extra buttons for those iirc
23:06:49kugelfor large lists there is list acceleration
23:08:14jlbiasinia lot of target use them
23:08:32kugelyes with combos or spare buttons
23:09:02kugelbut they dont compromise main functions such as ACTION_STD_MENU for this
23:09:38 Join ender1 [0] (
23:10:04jlbiasiniACTION_STD_MENU is only needed in one plugin. You don't need it otherwise. Cancel is enough!
23:10:29kugelit's used in the core
23:11:21jlbiasiniyes but it is equivalent to doing cancel several time and in usual case one or two time tops
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23:12:08kugelits not exactly the same
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23:12:39kugelit takes you always back to the main menu, which is an important feature (in my book) and useful for blind people
23:12:54kugelin the core, that is
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23:13:27kugelsome screens may use it for other purposes
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23:13:52wodzyou should add 'without affecting playback'
23:15:05jlbiasinitouchpad make the fuze+ unusable on the fuze+. If we need a menu map we can have it on the upper left part of the touchpad as we have already back on the left key
23:15:18kugeljlbiasini, pamaury: ACTION_STD_MENU is a primary function, it should be mapped in favor of PGUP/PGDOWN if mapping both is not possible
23:15:30jlbiasiniwodz: cancel from wps doesn't affect playback
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23:16:26kugeljlbiasini: from WPS both functions are distinct
23:16:45kugelpressing select, then using left to go to the main menu is different to going to the main menu directly
23:17:01kugelthe first method loses your "current directory" in the file browser
23:17:57jlbiasiniwe can map menu on the back arrow and keep back on the left.
23:18:06kugelI suggest moving PGUP/PGDOWN to a combo with volume up/down instead
23:18:25kugeljlbiasini: that's also possible although probably confusing to users
23:19:03wodzis combo possible on touchdev?
23:19:13kugelbut other targets have slightly confusing (and vastly different from OF) keymaps too
23:19:17jlbiasinithat's the problem
23:19:55kugelbut you can combine volume up/down and one key on the touchpad no?
23:20:21pamauryyes, although the physical shape of the device makes it akward in my opinion
23:20:26jlbiasiniyes but as we have volume in list it could be a bit confusing too
23:20:47jlbiasiniI was about to add that pamaury is right
23:20:53pamaurybut I agree that action_std_menu seems quite important
23:21:18pamauryto be honest jlbiasini did most of the keymap (which works very nicely) so I'm not too aware of that
23:21:42pamauryWasn't menu mapped to bottom right at some point ?
23:22:14pamauryjlbiasini: do you use page up and down in list ? I don't think I do most of the time, but I haven't used my mp3 player a lot recently
23:22:49pamaurywodz: I'll have a look tomorrow I think, I'm too tired tonight
23:23:26jlbiasinipamaury: I use it all the time: I have a 40mb library
23:23:32kugelyou can also think about using the play/pause button for it (yes it would not match the icon)
23:23:38 Quit [Saint] (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
23:23:49kugelbut a play/pause button is redundant in rockbox
23:23:57pamaurymake sense I would say
23:24:13pamauryexcept in WPS maybe
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23:25:05jlbiasiniif it's about not matching the icon it on the back key jdgordon was VERY specific on having left/right for select cancel
23:25:18kugelhm, not exactly redundant, you could use it to go to the WPS from anywhere (the e200 does this)
23:26:43jlbiasiniagain I know perfectly the fuze+ keymaps, the only double key everywhere is cancel that is mapped both to back and left key
23:26:57kugeljlbiasini: matching the icons is not the highest priority. the vendor designed the buttons for the vendors user interface, that may conflict with rockbox user interface, and we don't adapt to vendor user interface choices just to match some icons
23:27:31jlbiasiniso let's have back for menu. It has a back arrow on it: "click and you get to the main menu" it seems coherent
23:27:32pamauryjlbiasini: what is mapped to play/pause most of the time ? (ie not in WPS)
23:28:04kugelpamaury: thinking about it again I wouldnt use the play/pause button
23:28:07jlbiasinigot to wps short
23:28:14jlbiasinistop playback long
23:28:38pamauryok, back for menu is ok, just need to take the habit of using left
23:29:03jlbiasiniwe all will ;)
23:29:14kugelpamaury: the e200 has such a button, and its used in the lists to go always to the "last playing screen" (wps/fms) and play/pause in the wps/fms. this works very well
23:29:40pamauryyeah I remember that, very handy indeed
23:29:54kugelback seems like a better idea and has a bit more resemblance to the icon
23:30:17pamauryjlbiasini: we will need to post to the forum thread and prepare for bug reports ;)
23:30:45kugeljlbiasini: did you know you can adjust list acceleration to kick in rather quickly? It should be superior to PGUP/PGDOWN for most cases
23:31:25pamaurythe default value is quite low though, it takes ages to kick in
23:31:49jlbiasinikugel: no I didn't know that, I will try but page is very handy on a bit library
23:32:01jlbiasiniI will try
23:32:16pamauryjlbiasini: use the database :p (at your own risk)
23:33:07jlbiasinithe database is even bigger
23:33:58pamauryit is supposed to be well organised
23:35:15 Quit screaming_otter (Quit: Leaving)
23:35:24jlbiasiniyes but if you browse by artist or album it bigger
23:36:57jlbiasinipamaury: an alternative is to set menu on long back and cancel on short back but IIRC it was not very usuable we could make some test
23:37:46pamaurynot sure that's very good, usually you want menu to be quickly accessible I think
23:38:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:50:17 Join Water [0] (
23:51:26WaterHi all. Anyone familiar with RB LUA scripting? Just wondering if there is a command something like 'rb.copy' (to copy a file)? I've read some stuff, and i'm guessing there is not...?
23:53:59 Quit prof_wolfff (Remote host closed the connection)
23:54:21gevaertsWater: as far as I know, the available functions are a fairly thin wrapper above what's available in the rockbox core, and the rockbox core doesn't have a file copy function
23:54:58Watergevaerts: thank you
23:55:00wodzWater: We generally use POSIXish style so I would be surprised to see something like this in rb lua
23:55:51jlbiasinigevaerts: could you test g#569 on your gigabeat-fx again, please? It should be ok now!
23:55:53fs-bluebotGerrit review #569 at : [touch devices]Disable touch device on softlock/keyhold. by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/69/569/13)
23:58:36 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)

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