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| 12:48:41 | wodz | Zagor: Could you look at the FS issue? it seems that something adds bunch of empty lines to the patches. I thought it was db corruption but it seems to be more systematic |
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| 13:23:25 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision f37f339, 223 builds, 18 clients. |
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| 13:27:52 | webguest1100 | hi. first installation of rockbox on a sansa clip zip. it seems rockbox created a new directory structure and moved the old directories in a folder named ##MUSIC#. can I safely remove this and the folder ##PORT#? |
| 13:28:16 | [Saint] | Rockbox didn't move anything. |
| 13:28:25 | [Saint] | Those directories were already there. |
| 13:28:46 | [Saint] | You can delete them, if you wish, but the OF will recreate them whenever you boot it. |
| 13:29:59 | webguest1100 | I see. before I installed rockbox I only saw these folders: Audiobooks, Music, Playlists, Podcasts, Service. There wasn't a directory like AUDIBLE in the root of the drive |
| 13:30:25 | stoyan | [Saint]: you're wrong. after the install I had those two too. they are not from the OF |
| 13:30:38 | | Join liar [0] (~liar@83.175.90.24) |
| 13:30:43 | stoyan | same device |
| 13:31:04 | [Saint] | Its because you changed the way the drive presents itself in order to install Rockbox. |
| 13:31:11 | [Saint] | Rockbox doesn;t create these directories. |
| 13:31:34 | stoyan | then is some part of the install process |
| 13:31:46 | [Saint] | No, it isn't. |
| 13:31:54 | [Saint] | It is created by the OF. Not Rockbox. |
| 13:32:45 | stoyan | alright |
| 13:33:03 | webguest1100 | I didn't change anything. usb connection method is msc and I just used the rockbox utility to install rockbox |
| 13:33:41 | webguest1100 | I just can say that all these uppercase directory names didn't exist on the device before I installed rockbox. |
| 13:33:57 | [Saint] | They did exist, they just weren't presented to you. |
| 13:34:10 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 645 seconds. |
| 13:35:11 | [Saint] | Anyhoo, you can remove them all you want, but they'll be recreated. The only other way to deal with them is to mark them as hidden and set the file browser to only show "suported" files. |
| 13:35:13 | gevaerts | To clarify, the OF has some magic USB code to hide those directories on the fly |
| 13:35:16 | stoyan | I got you |
| 13:36:09 | [Saint] | If you mark them as hidden, they'll get out of your hair. |
| 13:36:39 | webguest1100 | mark them hidden via a windows file explorer or internally? |
| 13:37:33 | [Saint] | Rockbox has no way to do this, so, WIndows, yes. |
| 13:38:20 | webguest1100 | ok, thanks. I'll try that |
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| 13:54:29 | lebellium | Pamaury: On the E360 with my Westone UM3x I hear no sound or almost no sound from -100dB to -75dB and my usual volume level is -30dB vs -45dB on Clip Zip and max volume is much higher on Clip Zip than on E360. Also, whatever OF or Rockbox, the E360 sound is very "cold" compared to all my other players, including those with the same STMP3780 chip like Fuze+ |
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| 13:57:06 | copper | what does "cold" mean? |
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| 14:00 |
| 14:00:41 | lebellium | no mid or bass. |
| 14:01:01 | lebellium | using no EQ |
| 14:01:11 | copper | emphasised treble? |
| 14:01:17 | copper | that would be "bright" |
| 14:01:44 | copper | maybe high output impedance issue with your IEMs? |
| 14:02:13 | copper | that's the sony DAP, right? |
| 14:03:39 | copper | hmmm, at 56 ohms, that's rather unlikely |
| 14:04:04 | copper | they're not the same models, but all the sony DAPs measured on that page are about 3Ω http://monoadc.blog64.fc2.com/blog-entry-99.html |
| 14:04:08 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #64 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/64 : Remove svn id. by Torne Wuff (changes/64/64/1) |
| 14:04:47 | [Saint] | silly fs-bluebot |
| 14:04:52 | [Saint] | ...go hide in shame. |
| 14:04:55 | copper | lebellium: run RMAA unloaded, and loaded with your IEMs, to make sure |
| 14:04:56 | [Saint] | bad ot, bad! |
| 14:05:01 | [Saint] | *bot |
| 14:05:55 | copper | output impedance on its own is relatively easy to measure as well, with just headphones and a stereo splitter cable (like for running RMAA loaded) |
| 14:06:50 | copper | hmmm |
| 14:07:06 | copper | low max volume does sound like a stupidly high output impedance |
| 14:07:19 | copper | or it could just be the french / EU volume cap |
| 14:07:57 | copper | for that, I'd use a multimeter |
| 14:08:04 | copper | to measure the max voltage |
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| 14:08:32 | copper | if the voltage is normal or high (> 0.5V), then it's most likely very high output impedance |
| 14:08:56 | copper | which would show as very low voltage when loaded with your IEMs (obviously) |
| 14:10:37 | lebellium | copper: I don't have time to loose with those things honestly :) For the max volume I just plugged Creative EP630 and put max volume (not in my ears of course; but as "speakers"). Now I remember there is an hardware volume cap on European models while most manufacturers use a software cap |
| 14:11:27 | * | [Saint] wonders why all his id3 tags are suddenly utf16 |
| 14:11:48 | copper | and those are loud? |
| 14:12:05 | copper | er: those are loud, and your Westones are not? |
| 14:12:25 | [Saint] | Oh, gah...something changed my tags from 2.4 to 2.4, where utf8 apparently isn't an option...hmmm. |
| 14:12:42 | | Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 14:12:45 | [Saint] | *2.4 to 2.3 |
| 14:14:16 | copper | hmmm, in any case, the Westones should be louder than the Creatives |
| 14:14:36 | copper | the westones having higher sensitivity and higher impedance |
| 14:16:27 | lebellium | copper: I just don't take the risk to put max volume with my UM3x. I prefer doing that with cheap bad earphones. UM3x are 124dB/56Ohms vs 106dB and I don't know what impedance for the EP630 |
| 14:17:54 | copper | 16Ω |
| 14:18:36 | copper | lebellium: but if you're asking in the interest of Rockbox development on the E360, running RMAA would be helpful |
| 14:20:01 | pamaury | lebellium: the sound parameters of the E360 are exactly the same as on the fuze+ |
| 14:24:56 | pamaury | what about the OF ? |
| 14:25:39 | lebellium | ok looks like you're right. I just tried with a Bose QC15 and there is no difference between the E360 and the Fuze+. It's just a bit weird that the E360 is my only player unable to drive the UM3x... |
| 14:26:14 | copper | the Bose Q15 are immune to output impedance problems |
| 14:26:31 | pamaury | I need to fix the date/time of the E360 and E370 |
| 14:27:18 | copper | lebellium: just to be clear, the E360 is less loud than the Fuze+ with your Creative IEMs? |
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| 14:28:03 | lebellium | let me check |
| 14:28:17 | copper | this could be cleared up in 5 minutes by just measuring the thing |
| 14:29:11 | lebellium | with the EP630 the Fuze+ is much louder than the E360 at max volume |
| 14:29:40 | lebellium | that's this stupid hardware volume cap |
| 14:30:33 | lebellium | pamaury: don't forget the colors too^^ |
| 14:31:46 | copper | lebellium: it's not a volume cap if there's no difference with the Bose QC15s |
| 14:31:58 | lebellium | I did not say that |
| 14:32:14 | lebellium | for the Bose I was talking about the sound signature |
| 14:32:47 | lebellium | with the bose there is as much bass and mid on the E360 as on the Fuze+ |
| 14:33:30 | pamaury | lebellium: can you compare OF and RB on the E360 ? That would just end the discussion |
| 14:33:33 | copper | what about volume? |
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| 14:38:04 | lebellium | pamaury: there is no difference between OF and RB in term of sound signature and volume. For me the discussion is over since I found out and said that the problem only occurs with my UM3x. I don't know why copper wants to discussion further ;) |
| 14:38:14 | lebellium | discuss* |
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| 14:43:26 | pamaury | ok thanks |
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| 14:48:05 | lebellium | pamaury: I don't know if it's part of the keymapping or if it's another issue but I also noticed that if I turn on the player while the hold switch is ON, it actually boots Rockbox and only turns off the screen. On other rockboxed players with hardware hold switch like Sansa E200 it displays "Key LOCKED, system shutdown" but won't start Rockbox. |
| 14:50:00 | | Quit knittl (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 14:52:53 | pamaury | yeah, that's probably handled in the bootloader, I didn't write the code yet |
| 14:53:24 | copper | lebellium: because if it's an output impedance issue, people would do well to avoid that DAP |
| 14:53:28 | [Saint] | How does one turn a device on with a HW hold switched engaded? |
| 14:53:33 | [Saint] | ...braindead HW. |
| 14:53:59 | copper | Nexus 7 + Shure SE425: http://outpost.fr/rmaa/Nexus7-Shure_SE425/fr.png |
| 14:54:18 | copper | kinda looks like what you described |
| 14:54:22 | pamaury | [Saint]: I admit on this device it is wired strangely, the hold button is completely handled in software |
| 14:54:51 | [Saint] | Oh dear. |
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| 14:55:50 | [Saint] | FWIW, the iPod Classic is kinda braindead as well...but in a slightly more hilarious way. |
| 14:56:18 | [Saint] | You can turn it on, by turning the hold switch on, when the device is off...so it boots, and immediately wipes your config.cfg. :) |
| 14:57:45 | copper | uh? |
| 14:57:54 | copper | wipes your config.cfg? |
| 14:58:19 | [Saint] | Yes, that's what booting with hold on does. |
| 14:58:43 | [Saint] | But, its supposed to be "boot, with hold off, and then very quickly engage hold" |
| 14:59:06 | [Saint] | ...a device that boots when hold is turned on, when the device was off, makes this a bit of a trap. |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:00 | pamaury | yeah, on some devices putting hold on physically makes it boot |
| 15:00:10 | [Saint] | So, if your iPod Classic ever ends up booted, with default settings and the hold switch engaged...you know what happened. |
| 15:02:28 | [Saint] | copper: it seems like a weird thing to do, I know, but its a safety feature to gaurd against config weirdness. |
| 15:02:46 | [Saint] | It just so happens that it makes a nice trap for the few targets that boot when hold is engaged. |
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| 16:50:02 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 94f2bc7, 223 builds, 18 clients. |
| 16:50:23 | pamaury | this is very puzzling, I cannot make the lcd controller work as expected on E370, I have to use a workaround but I don't understand why. Furthermore it works perfectly on all the other imx233 devices |
| 16:58:06 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 483 seconds. |
| 16:58:07 | lebellium | thanks for the fix pamaury :) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:01:38 | pamaury | time fix on rail |
| 17:02:16 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 0897794, 223 builds, 18 clients. |
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| 17:07:09 | lebellium | http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8937/j040.jpg :) |
| 17:08:04 | pamaury | what is the middle player ? |
| 17:08:21 | lebellium | Samsung YP-R0 |
| 17:08:39 | pamaury | I really like the E360, I think it's a very good player, nice build quality, a bit heavy and fits nicely in the hand, very good screen |
| 17:08:49 | pamaury | physical buttons and hold |
| 17:08:57 | pamaury | compared to the E370 which is very bad |
| 17:11:13 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 537 seconds. |
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| 17:12:14 | lebellium | I agree for the physical buttons and great size but build quality... it's cheap plastic which scratches easily. Have a look at the YP-R0. That's good build quality :) |
| 17:12:36 | | Quit mortalis (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 17:14:20 | pamaury | yeah the screen scratches easily. But still compared to the E370 that's way better |
| 17:15:59 | lebellium | I can imagine. And 128x160 vs 240x320 for almost the same size |
| 17:17:26 | pamaury | yeah, that's the appaling part |
| 17:18:39 | lebellium | "The following players are handled: E340, E360, E440, E440K?, S540, BB." |
| 17:18:47 | lebellium | did you mean E350 instead of E360? |
| 17:19:35 | pamaury | no, E360. All these players seems to share a common or very close firmware |
| 17:19:58 | lebellium | oh ok |
| 17:20:25 | lebellium | and E370 has a different firmware? |
| 17:22:42 | pamaury | yes |
| 17:22:56 | pamaury | but it's quite close too |
| 17:34:29 | | Join SparFux [0] (~SparFux@e182021247.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 17:36:44 | SparFux | Hello. I have an iPad Wifi +3G (manual says so), which has a model number A1219 printed on its back. Which kind is it to choose on http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml ? |
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| 17:37:44 | gevaerts | SparFux: none of them. Rockbox doesn't run on ipads |
| 17:37:55 | SparFux | gevaerts: ah, I see. thx. |
| 17:39:43 | pamaury | bluebrother: ping |
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| 17:48:07 | pamaury | thinking about it, this "reset settings on hold" behaviour has a big downside: you cannot use the alarm clock properly |
| 17:48:14 | pamaury | or you have to disengage hold |
| 17:51:45 | pamaury | lebellium: I'm uploading a new bootloader for the e360 with the fix for hold behaviour |
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| 17:54:03 | lebellium | great, thank you |
| 17:55:52 | pamaury | link is on the wiki |
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| 18:05:09 | lebellium | pamaury: ok it works :) |
| 18:05:21 | pamaury | thanks for the test |
| 18:07:08 | lebellium | maybe it would be useful to add versionning to your rockbox firmwares/bootloaders? |
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| 18:09:42 | pamaury | I should have tagged it as V1, that's right |
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| 18:11:30 | pamaury | gevaerts: do you remember what is the trick to display a particular version in the bootloader when tagging a bootloader as V1 for example ? |
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| 18:17:56 | pamaury | I think it is make VERSION=V1, it that okay ? |
| 18:19:11 | pamaury | lebellium: what do you think should be the behaviour about hold and usb mode ? |
| 18:19:25 | pamaury | I think it should boot in usb mode if hold is on, but power down after |
| 18:25:39 | gevaerts | Something lika that IIRC, yesd |
| 18:27:48 | lebellium | pamaury: I think so. But I see there is no commun rule for that. My E200 displays the keylock message then powers down while my H320 connects in bootloader USB mode, whatever hold ON or OFF |
| 18:36:09 | lebellium | pamaury: also, I don't know if that's bootloader or keymapping related but I think that short press on the power button starts Rockbox and long press starts OF is not a good idea. I would only use long press to power on, nothing for short press and use another key to start the OF |
| 18:37:02 | pamaury | hum, long press should boot to rockbox too |
| 18:37:19 | pamaury | that's why happen on my device |
| 18:37:47 | lebellium | I just checked again, a long press on play/pause start OF and not rockbox |
| 18:38:02 | pamaury | ah that's normal, play/pause is not power |
| 18:38:13 | pamaury | any key except power will boot to OF |
| 18:38:29 | pamaury | but if you touch it fast enough, it will be missed by the bootloader and boot to the OF |
| 18:40:06 | lebellium | Oh ok I see. A short press on any key starts Rockbox hum |
| 18:42:16 | pamaury | the issue is that any key press will power the device, I cannot change this. When booting it will read the keys: if any key other than power is pressed, it goes to OF. But there is a slight delay between the first key press and the check, I cannot change that either |
| 18:42:57 | pamaury | so the rule is actually "long press any key other than power to boot to the OF" |
| 18:44:07 | lebellium | Arf, that's unfortunate. Why is different from the other targets? But fortunately there is the hold switch to avoid unwanted power on in the pocket |
| 18:44:15 | lebellium | is it* |
| 18:44:39 | pamaury | because reading which button is pressed is not trivial |
| 18:45:19 | pamaury | I could change it but that's more work if you want something like "press back to boot to OF" |
| 18:45:44 | pamaury | and not some many players actually boot on any key press |
| 18:46:06 | pamaury | *not so many |
| 18:46:32 | pamaury | what would you suggest if you could choose how to boot to the OF ? |
| 18:49:08 | lebellium | If that was possible, I would do like: long press on play/pause starts Rockbox, long press on "option/pwr off" turns off the device and like on Sansa: left + play/pause or volume down + play/pause starts the OF |
| 18:50:50 | pamaury | long press on "option/pwr off" => that's already the case |
| 18:50:59 | lebellium | yes yes :) |
| 18:51:08 | pamaury | I cannot detect key combination, that's physically impossible |
| 18:51:44 | pamaury | I can only detect option/pwr off + something |
| 18:52:00 | pamaury | and even this I'm not 100% sure |
| 18:52:10 | pamaury | let me check |
| 18:53:29 | lebellium | then why not long press on back or volume down starts OF. |
| 18:53:30 | pamaury | ok I can detect option/pwr off + something else |
| 18:54:48 | pamaury | ok, i'll try this |
| 18:55:10 | lebellium | the key is not really important I think. What would be useful is to avoid short presses to boots something and to avoid any key to boots up. |
| 18:55:44 | pamaury | there is already hold for this no ? |
| 18:56:18 | lebellium | well, that helps for sure. But how do you do on the E370 without hold switch? :) |
| 18:56:46 | pamaury | that one is tricky but you can easily trigger a long press in a pocket too |
| 18:58:07 | lebellium | what I propose is the ideal way of working, what I like and how it is on most rockboxed targets. But as you said, the hold switch helps so that's not really a high priority. |
| 18:58:47 | pamaury | so you suggest: any key press shorter than T (T = 1sec for example) doesn't boot, otherwise boot to rockbox except if the key is back or volume down ? |
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| 18:59:46 | pamaury | there is another issue with the NWZ: you can really turn them off while in the OF :-/ |
| 18:59:55 | pamaury | *cannot really |
| 18:59:58 | pamaury | you need to reset them |
| 19:00 |
| 19:00:03 | pamaury | or plug usb |
| 19:00:28 | lebellium | not really, I rather suggest that only one key (play/pause is the most logical to me) boots to rockbox and only one other key or key combination boots to OF. And only long press in both cases |
| 19:01:00 | pamaury | hum, I would rather press power to boot ! |
| 19:01:24 | pamaury | ok so back boots OF and play/power boot RB |
| 19:01:49 | lebellium | There is no real power key on this device. |
| 19:02:01 | pamaury | what I call power is option/power off |
| 19:02:16 | pamaury | and that is one is physically different from the others |
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| 19:03:46 | lebellium | yes I know, but it's written "option" on it, and it only powers down in OF. Play/pause is used for power on. But that doesn't really matter, use this one to boot rockbox if you prefer |
| 19:04:07 | lebellium | as long as it's only one key and long press, that's fine :) |
| 19:04:27 | pamaury | we can have both boot to rockbox so that everyone is happy |
| 19:04:44 | lebellium | Good solution :) |
| 19:05:12 | pamaury | but Sony has a strange notion of "power off", because it doesn't power off, it only shutdown the screen |
| 19:05:29 | lebellium | I know, we have the same issue on the Samsung YP-R0 |
| 19:05:42 | lebellium | You're obliged to carry a paper clip with you to power it down after using OF |
| 19:06:47 | lebellium | At least on the Sony players it doesn't seem to eat up much energy |
| 19:06:58 | lebellium | on the Samsung players, this sleep mode kills the battery life |
| 19:07:38 | pamaury | There is also the case of usb and alarm to tackle: if USB is plugged I suggest we boot to bootloader usb mode except if back is pressed, then we boot to OF USB mode. Similarly on alarm. In all cases we ignore hold |
| 19:08:49 | lebellium | Sounds good to me |
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| 20:07:57 | pamaury | lebellium: you are giving me some work ! I found a bug and had to fix it because of you :p |
| 20:11:44 | pamaury | I think I'll drop the option/power off button because it doesn't work, the device doesn't like when the power button is pressed at boot time |
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| 20:27:49 | pamaury | lebellium: uploading new firmware |
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| 20:39:32 | lebellium | pamaury: I'm sorry for giving you so much work but I'm sure it's worth it in the end :) |
| 20:40:38 | pamaury | it's uploaded, can you test it please ?. |
| 20:43:13 | lebellium | yep |
| 20:43:24 | lebellium | where's the download link? |
| 20:43:42 | pamaury | same as before |
| 20:44:32 | lebellium | ok |
| 20:45:16 | lebellium | hum |
| 20:45:29 | lebellium | is it this one https://www.dropbox.com/s/95gvc9a5r401fyn/sonynwze360_1.0.0.firmware.sb ? Cause it says uploaded 3hrs ago |
| 20:46:48 | lebellium | oops no |
| 20:46:51 | pamaury | no, this is the OF, you need the other one, the prebuilt one |
| 20:47:06 | lebellium | yes, sorry, my mistake |
| 21:00 |
| 21:01:21 | lebellium | pamaury: great! Much better now :) Just an issue with USB mode. If you plug the USB cable while the device is OFF with hold switch ON, it gets into a reboot loop. And if the hold switch is OFF, it seems to start Rockbox, not to enter in bootloader USB mode |
| 21:01:48 | pamaury | hum, that's not the behaviour I have here |
| 21:02:14 | pamaury | can you check it again ? |
| 21:02:30 | pamaury | sometimes the hardware misdetect usb connection on boot |
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| 21:04:05 | pamaury | or maybe I uploaded the wrong version :-/ |
| 21:04:26 | lebellium | no, looks like that was the USB cable |
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| 21:04:43 | pamaury | ok I prefer this :) |
| 21:05:03 | pamaury | so everything is okay now ? |
| 21:05:17 | lebellium | ok it works properly with another cable |
| 21:05:23 | lebellium | everything's OK |
| 21:05:26 | lebellium | thank you :) |
| 21:06:22 | pamaury | thanks for testing |
| 21:06:32 | pamaury | do you have a E370 or not ? |
| 21:08:46 | lebellium | Nope. It doesn't look very interesting according to what you said. If I buy another one, I think that would be rather a E400 series, 8 or 16GB as my E363 is only 4GB |
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| 21:10:35 | bluebrother | pamaury: sorry, been on a business trip the last couple of days and haven't been able to look into things |
| 21:11:39 | pamaury | ok no problem, I have another question: how do you think we should handle devices like NZE-E360 which don't have a firmware upgrade available ? I have a tool to extract it from the device but how could we integrate it in RbUtil ? |
| 21:12:37 | pamaury | it needs SCSI vendor requests |
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| 21:19:20 | pamaury | gevaerts: : what is the procedure to upload bootloader release ? ask Zagor ? |
| 21:19:28 | gevaerts | Yes :) |
| 21:19:36 | pamaury | Zagor: ping |
| 21:23:33 | bluebrother | pamaury: we already do custom SCSI commands (for retrieving the RAM size on Ipods, though since 64MB / 32MB versions now use the same binary this isn't necessary anymore) |
| 21:23:57 | bluebrother | I'd also like to include time-sync support in Rockbox Utility, which kinda needs those as well |
| 21:24:07 | bluebrother | it's again the time issue ... |
| 21:24:54 | pamaury | how do handle the permission issues ? on linux a regular user cannot to that |
| 21:25:26 | pamaury | and for the firmware retrieving, do you think it's better to integrate it directly into the bootloader install path or provide a "extract firmware" menu ? |
| 21:25:46 | pamaury | extracting the firmware for safde storage has its uses |
| 21:26:05 | bluebrother | yes, but when installing Rockbox on an Ipod / PP Sandisk player you need root permissions as well |
| 21:26:18 | pamaury | ok |
| 21:26:25 | bluebrother | so while this is a bit ugly I don't see a good way to do this otherwise. Plus, we already have this case. |
| 21:26:59 | pamaury | how is SCSI handled in a cross platform way ? do we have a lib somewhere ? |
| 21:27:42 | bluebrother | not yet. |
| 21:28:36 | bluebrother | there's ipodio-posix.c and ipodio-win32-scsi.c in the ipodpatcher sources |
| 21:30:13 | bluebrother | putting those into a lib is somethings on my todo list as well :) |
| 21:30:35 | pamaury | maybe i'll do it soon then, because I need it |
| 21:31:27 | * | bluebrother wouldn't mind :) |
| 21:44:55 | pamaury | hum, apparently I broke the fuze+ bootloader :( |
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| 21:51:43 | pamaury | weird, I broken the bootloader but not the main build |
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| 23:14:41 | damarusama | hoy |
| 23:14:52 | damarusama | can you rotate the screen on the ipod nano 1st gen |
| 23:20:31 | kugel | pamaury: why press a button to boot rb (re: b60712d)? |
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