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#rockbox log for 2013-09-28

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05:58:26tertuis there a way to normalize audio on the player in Rockbox?
05:58:26tertu("the player" being an ipod 6g)
06:09:43[Saint]tertu: mean like...replaygain, perhaps?
06:09:55tertuyeah i later found out about that
06:10:14tertui don't think i have any files tagged, but foobar2k can do that right?
06:10:57[Saint]There's very little point unless you have full albums, though.
06:11:18[Saint]If you just have a massive clusterfuck of randomly assorted files things get weird.
06:11:21tertui'm trying to normalize a playlist actually
06:11:28tertuoh, so that doesn't work well?
06:12:08[Saint]Hmmmmm, I guess you could scan the whole thing as an "album".
06:13:14tertui'll give it a shot. if it doesn't work, i'll just hand-edit the files.
06:15:10[Saint]Make sure you use replaygain instead of mp3gain, too.
06:15:40[Saint]Replaygain only edit tags, mp3gain edits the gain in the actual mp3 frames and is irrecoverable.
06:19:19tertuwould Ex Falso work?
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07:34:20n17ikhtertu: replaygain in foobar makes two tags, one per-track and one per-album
07:34:27n17ikhand you can tell rockbox to use either one
07:34:37n17ikh(if I remember correctly)
07:35:24tertui processed them with Ex Falso
07:35:24tertuwhich also provides both tracks.
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08:57:29copper[Saint]: "If you just have a massive clusterfuck of randomly assorted files things get weird." <−− that's what track gain is for
08:57:49copperthings don't "get weird"
08:58:18[Saint]Yeah, I forgot about the fact that you could just scan a set of files as "an album".
08:59:23copperyou can scan "as an album" and / or as tracks
08:59:38copperin the first case, you get both album gain and track gain, and in the second, you only get track gain
09:00:24[Saint]I forgot that you could just group an arbitrary set of files as "an album", as I usually let it sort itself out by metadata, I also forgot that track gain could be applied seperately to album gain.
09:00:40[Saint]I pretty much fucked that up entirely but I forgot to go back to it and correct myself.
09:01:07copperand, with Rockbox, you don't have to "apply" gain, tags work fine
09:01:45[Saint]...where did that come from?
09:02:01copperand, Rockbox is smart enough to provide a "track gain when shuffle", which uses album and track gain appropriately
09:02:26[Saint]Pretty much all replaygain implementations do this.
09:02:40tertuso for a playlist I did all as a chunk should I have album gain on or track gain?
09:02:54[Saint]You should have both.
09:03:07copperyou should scan and tag per album
09:03:33copperand then let Rockbox use album or track gain where appropriate
09:03:50copper[Saint]: though, how does Rockbox handle playlists for replaygain?
09:04:17[Saint]As I said earlier, though, one thing I'm definitely sure of - make sure you apply *replaygain* and not *mp3gain*.
09:04:38copperdon't use the word "apply"
09:04:45copperespecially in the context of foobar2000
09:04:55[Saint]The latter is only for cases where replaygain isn't handled correctly, or at all, and it physically alters the gain in the mp3 frames, which is irreversable.
09:04:57copper"apply" means altering the audio
09:05:10tertuyeah i tried it already, the results were satisfactory, this was a tag-only solution
09:05:59tertui just wonder if having it switched to album gain would make it even better
09:06:02[Saint][19:03] <copper> [Saint]: though, how does Rockbox handle playlists for replaygain? <−− that's actually a very good question.
09:06:36coppertertu: album gain makes no sense outside the context of an actual album
09:07:24copper[Saint]: obviously track gain should be used, but I haven't tested
09:07:56[Saint]copper: you could do some smart things to decide if album gain should be used instead, though.
09:08:02[Saint]...I doubt that happens, however,
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09:16:19[Saint]Hmmm, indeed. I guess you could check if the playlist only contained metadata from a single album?
09:16:59[Saint]or multiple albums in sequence (not shuffled)?
09:17:35[Saint]Not entirely sure if that is worth it, though, and it relies on sane metadata.
09:20:03tertuthe rockbox mentality seems to be "if autodetecting something could go wrong, don't autodetect"
09:20:41tertufrom my experience
09:21:57[Saint]I can't think of a way that could go wrong, though.
09:22:04[Saint]The metadata is either there or it isn't.
09:22:28[Saint]I only wonder if it would be worth the time and effort to implement, even if it is trivial.
09:22:38[Saint](which it should indeed be)
09:26:59[Saint]scorche|sh: You host the forums, yes? Would it be possible to add the Flattr donation link there as well for the sake of symmetry?
09:28:00coppersomething's wrong with the way Rockbox handles playlist
09:28:44[Saint]How so?
09:29:06coppernah my fault
09:29:21copperanyway, I just tested it, Rockbox uses album gain with playlists :-/
09:29:36copperjust tried a playlist of three tracks from different artists and albums
09:29:54copperwith the default "track gain when shuffle" option
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09:30:41copper"track gain if shuffling"
09:34:03[Saint]Hmmmm, so it seems it may indeed be worthwhile to check the playlists metadata and apply album gain only if the playlist consists of sequential albums or a singular album.
09:34:54[Saint]Slightly tricky...and potentially error prone, possibly.
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09:44:15[Saint]Actually, that could be a lot trickier than I thought to achieve, depending on how deeply you wanted to dive into potential fail cases.
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09:50:37[Saint]No bueno!
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09:54:10[Saint]Someone's having fun.
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09:57:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:59:52[Saint]Oh, JhMikes has been at it again I see:
09:59:55[Saint]Very nice.
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10:06:00*[Saint] really wishes JhMikes was on IRC more and talked about his massive behind-the-scenes almost complete re-implementation of major areas of core code.
10:06:43[Saint]I don't mean this in a negative way, though it certainly isn;t all that positive, but the guy doesn't seem to like working out in the open.
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10:08:45copper[Saint]: didn't people say the same about you? :P
10:08:54copperworking in secret
10:09:33[Saint]Yeah, sure, but I'm not re-implementing massive areas of core functionality.
10:09:52coppermeh, secret work is better than no work at all!
10:10:07[Saint]The work I do or don't do doesn't affect anyone adversely.
10:10:29copperso, what is he trying to fix?
10:10:38[Saint]But, for example, someone may spend days, weeks, months working on an area of the core that would be replaced by a re-implementation no one knew about.
10:10:52[Saint]...and, that would piss me off, were it to happen to me.
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10:13:11[Saint]I'm mainly interested in his buflib and scheduling/threading work, but his work in the fat driver linked above is rather nice too.
10:13:57[Saint]JhMikes has a habit of showing up and dumping massive (always good work) re-implementations of whatever has taken his fancy at the time.
10:14:05[Saint]Its awesome, but also, not.
10:15:11[Saint]And yes, while I am definitely guilty of the same thing I do so knowing that I'm not going to step on any toes accidentally.
10:15:59[Saint] is very cool
10:16:58[Saint]That could even be extended to targets where we can drive the piezo too.
10:32:09NarodHello. I'm currently trying to create a NWZ-E370 firmware file with the rb bootloader. So I extracted the original firmware using scsitools and compiled the bootloader. But mkimxboot tells me, my firmware image has an unknown MD5. Did something go wrong or is the list simply incomplete?
10:32:17NarodIt's a US 16GB E370, btw.
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10:34:05NarodOr maybe I just screwed up, I dunno. The thing is, in recovery mode, it doesn't register as a device and I'm unable to extract the firmware.
10:34:13Narod*mass storage device
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10:53:01[Saint]Narod: you'll want to talk to pamaury
10:53:11[Saint](who isn't here presently)
10:53:52NarodDang. Alright, I'll just hang out for a bit then and ask him later. Thanks.
10:54:25[Saint]Were I to guess, I would say there may be several versions of the original firmware (perhaps region specific), and pamaury has only tested with the one variant he is aware of.
10:54:33[Saint](as they supply no FW update for this device)
10:55:43NarodIs there any way to check if the extraction was successful, then?
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10:57:41[Saint]Since there isn't a FW image available to compare it to, I guess not. My assumption is that as long as the extraction didn't error out, and produced a file, you could call this a success.
10:58:22[Saint]It it fails repeatably, and the sum of the dumped image is always the same, I would think corruption unlikely.
10:59:15[Saint]My guess is that this is a region specific FW that pamaury was unaware of or had no access to at the time of implementation.
11:01:25[Saint]Just a guess, however.
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11:08:24NarodAlright. I'll extract it twice more and compare MD5s, then.
11:18:03NarodThe extraction process doesn't fail and all three files got the exact same md5. Do I live on the edge and just flash that file in order to find out if everything worked out?
11:29:11[Saint]I wouldn't want to say "Yeah, sure, go for it" as I know very little of the device and how recoverable it is.
11:30:27[Saint]The devices I work with are virtually indestructable (iPods), but I do know that some devices can present a potentially tricky recovery for an end user if something goes awry.
11:30:56[Saint]It would likely be best to wait for pamaury and/or chase him up on the forum and/or dev mailing list.
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11:46:08NarodYeah, probably. It's just really weird that in recovery mode it registers as a HID and not a mass storage device, so recovering it would be difficult.
11:50:49NarodI flashed it anyway and it worked out just fine. Should I supply pamaury with my US firmware, then?
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12:14:34pamauryNarod: thanks
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12:15:13fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision d13e5b9, 223 builds, 19 clients.
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12:23:59fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 526 seconds.
12:24:00[Saint]pamaury: Narod: it seems I missed some of the conversation - what was the issue, if anything?
12:24:14[Saint]I assume its an EU volume regulation thing?
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12:24:35[Saint](or lack thereof)
12:24:51NarodMaybe that is the main difference. I really can't tell.
12:26:07[Saint]Well, I know where pamaury is geographically, so it stands to reason (if purchased/acquired locally) that his device has a volume regulated FW as the EU requires this.
12:26:35[Saint](and you stated you have US FW, which doesn't)
12:26:59NarodYeah, the US one was the only one that I was able to get, so there's that.
12:26:59[Saint]Other differences could be with FM bands if not user selectable.
12:28:11[Saint]So I take it that you supplied him with either the sum, the firmware, or both then - so as this may benefit future users?
12:28:29NarodI sent him a link to the firmware, yes. And I'm testing out the bootloader right now.
12:28:40[Saint]You can also take pride in the fact that you're likely one of a very small handful of people using Rb on this device.
12:28:45[Saint]You're special. :)
12:28:50NarodYay. :P
12:29:38[Saint]probably somewhere in the vacinity of 3 or 4 individuals.
12:30:55NarodI also got a NWZ-E360...somewhere. I need to look for it in my box of a thousand small devices.
12:32:10pamaurythe EU firmware seems to have an option to disable volume regulation
12:32:20NarodWell...yes and no.
12:32:34NarodUsually, AVLS only "kind of" disables it.
12:32:52NarodAnd the actual volume limit can be lifted by entering the service menu, if I recall correctly.
12:35:22NarodOkay, the bootloader kind of works. I can't power up the device but it turns on when I plug in USB
12:35:28NarodAnd it charges.
12:35:40NarodAh, there we go.
12:37:02NarodOkay, now it works. I seem to be unable to boot into OF, though. I can boot Rockbox by pressing play, but any other button won't do anything at all.
12:38:17NarodOooh, the back button. Yeah, as you said, the keymap needs some work.
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12:45:50pamauryNarod: the wiki is not up to date
12:46:14pamauryactually I didn't write the E370 port page
12:46:23pamauryalthough it's mostly the same as the E360
12:48:11NarodYeah, I just assumed it would be the same in terms of booting. :) Also, pushing up causes the cursor to jump one up and down again.
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12:54:14NarodAfter rebooting, it doesn't do that anymore. Weird.
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12:58:32[Saint]<< boots the OF on most targets that have dualboot and an obvious << key
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13:16:20pamaury[Saint]: back is more natural when you have back (and given the key placement) here. And it's not true anyway: some using volume down
13:17:24lebelliumyes, yesterday we chose "back" with pamaury. Sounds logical to us :)
13:20:15lebelliumOn the Sansa it's usually a key combination like power + left or power + volume down but on the Sony that can't work
13:32:20[Saint]Well, that's not true either. :)
13:32:28[Saint]It seems we're both wrong.
13:32:54[Saint]...but at least we're only slightly wrong.
13:35:41[Saint]In fact, from my knowledge, there's only one Sansa that has a dual-key "boot to OF" combination.
13:35:45[Saint]The Fuze+
13:35:50[Saint]All the rest use <<
13:36:54NarodThe Fuze+ boots to OF using volume down and power. Just like the Clip Zip.
13:37:40[Saint]AH,, two targets. :)
13:38:27[Saint]Hmmm, wait...what?
13:38:47[Saint]Narod: The manual very much disagrees with you.
13:39:57[Saint]Additionally, if back is more natural (subjective, but I'm not arguing), why doesn't the Clip Zip use it?
13:39:57NarodWell, my Clip Zip says otherwise.
13:40:15NarodBoth << and volume down work.
13:40:24lebelliumNarod is right
13:40:26[Saint]Ahhhh, I see.
13:40:40[Saint]Actually, w're *both* right. :)
13:41:16[Saint]This also points to a hole in the manual(s), I guess.
13:41:30lebelliumwe originally put power + volume down on the Clip Zip, then put power + left to be like on the other Sansa but as some early users prefered power + volume down, we let both keys in the end
13:41:40NarodOh jeez. :D
13:41:44[Saint]I need to write them all down, there are a number of places now where the manuals are misleading or outright wrong.
13:42:23[Saint]lebellium: well, "we" forgot to update the manual. :)
13:42:34[Saint]It doesn't mention power *at all*, and only mentions <<
13:42:45lebelliumoh really? Then it's really wrong :S
13:42:56lebelliumAFAIK I user Power + something on all my Sansa
13:43:34[Saint]I only own a Fuze (well, several V1 and 2), and it uses << solely.
13:43:45[Saint]FOr everything else I mistakenly trusted the manuals.
13:43:58lebelliumlet me check again on my devices
13:44:51*[Saint] is no wondering where his are as he is doubting himself.
13:45:18lebelliumOnly << does nothing on Clip+, Clip Zip, E200, C200, Fuzev1 and Fuze+
13:45:28lebelliumI just checked
13:45:54lebelliumTo boot OF on my Fuzev1, I need power + <<
13:45:55[Saint]Hum, I am mistaken.
13:46:04[Saint]But this means pretty much every Sansa manual is wrong.
13:46:12lebelliumgreat.... :S
13:46:42*[Saint] raises a hand and yells "Not it!"
13:48:35[Saint]Interestingly, though, this goes to show how much people care about the dualboot feature.
13:48:40lebelliumI read for Clip Zip
13:48:42lebellium"To boot into the original firmware, press and hold the Left button while turning on the player. "
13:48:48lebelliumso it's not that wrong
13:49:10lebellium"while turning on the player" = power
13:49:30[Saint]I don't read that as "power + <<", though.
13:49:43[Saint]To me, that means "press and hold both power and << keys"
13:49:53[Saint] this just a giant Engrish misunderstanding?
13:50:39lebelliumthat might be :)
13:51:12[Saint]The way you described it suggested to me that power needed to be held, which I was willing to agree with as I haven't used these devices in a while, but seemed strange to me.
13:51:45[Saint]So, indeed. They're not /completely/ wrong, then. :)
13:52:01[Saint]They just don't mention the other keys that can dualboot as well as <<
13:52:03*Narod doesn't really care about dualboot...except when he needs to flash a new bootloader or the OF without Rockbox. :>
13:52:58lebelliumwell the natural way for me is to press and hold both buttons. But if you just press power once and then very quickly press <<, it seems to work too on my Clip Zip..
13:53:20[Saint]Narod: Well, frankly, if the original firmware was so great none of us would be here. :)
13:53:42[Saint]lebellium: I hold <<, and then briefly press power.
13:53:51[Saint]same effect, slightly easier.
13:54:06lebelliumso everybody does something different
13:54:09lebelliumbut the result is the same :D
13:54:17[Saint]Apparently so.
13:55:41[Saint]Well, the manual is still "right", but it might be good to note that there are keys other than << that can boot the OF on some Sansas.
13:55:53lebelliumthat's why, at least on the Sony it's clearer, there is no confusion. Press and hold the back button or it won't work :)
13:56:08[Saint]Though I suspect people don't care as long as they can boot the OF.
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14:34:42[Saint]Awww. My efforts to get a forum user to buy me a new car failed.
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16:22:05pamauryI've got a YP-Q3 now :)
16:22:31lebelliumgreat :)
16:22:39lebellium4 or 8GB? How much?
16:25:00pamauryno idea ^^ let me check
16:27:11lebelliumyou start competing with my collection^^
16:29:13pamauryI think I'm still far from yours
16:29:20lebelliumIf you want, I can send you the official recovery tool, although it probably works with tcctool too
16:29:43pamauryah yes, please send it to me
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16:32:53lebelliumto your gmail?
16:34:21pamauryyes please
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16:42:35[Saint]Isn't that something we should probably have on the "Useful Tools" page, or does licensing prevent this?
16:48:08lebelliumpamaury: email sent
16:50:06lebellium[Saint]: I have to check first if I found it leaked on a Chinese/russian forum or if a Samsung contact sent it to me. In the latter case, I'm not supposed to share all those confidential tools/docs :) But since the Q3 has been released in 2010 and that nobody longer cares about MP3 players at Samsung, I don't think that would be a big deal
16:51:55[Saint]Neither of those cases would prevent one from sharing such a binary, depending on the license. You're under no contract.
16:52:39lebelliumI talk about trust and relations with my contacts, not about contracts :)
16:53:42[Saint]Right. I'm just saying that "not supposed to" doesn't actually mean anything.
16:54:01lebelliumbut since the MP3 division has been closed at Samsung, that's no longer a problem, my contacts and former contacts wouldn't care about what I do with DAP tools now.
16:54:02[Saint]If they didn;t want it shared, they: A - shouldn't give it to anyone, or b: license it appropriately
16:54:39[Saint]Not that option B prevents anything, but it gives them some legal options depending on locality.
16:56:45lebelliumWell, I never got those confidential tools and docs officially. Samsung never gave me anything but some people working at Samsung I have known for years did. What you say is appropriate for the company it self, not for a person working in a company and doing something he/she shouldn't do :)
16:58:17[Saint]Well, yeah, it is.
16:58:45[Saint]IFF <file> gets out, one should hope it is licensed to prevent redistribution.
16:58:53[Saint]If its not, their loss.
16:59:10[Saint]Sure, there's the grey area of morals to deal with..but, meh.
16:59:59[Saint]I mean, obviously this doesn't /prevent/ redistribution, but (depending on locality) it at least gives them the option of doing something about it.
17:01:09lebelliumAt the time (let's say until 2009), Samsung Korea was watching over me on forums, especially ABI and if I shared a recovery tool, my contacts at Samsung would have been fired or severely reprimanded. Now I feel much more free to do anything which could avoir the user to send his player back for the service center :)
17:01:33lebelliumto the service center*
17:02:07[Saint]There's also the option of reversing and reimplementing it, too.
17:02:17[Saint]Then it doesn't matter how you got it. :)
17:04:26pamaurydo we know the format of the bin firmwares from samsung ?
17:05:01lebelliumwe don't know more than what Lorenzo put here I think:
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17:10:18lebellium[Saint]: Back to the great times of MP3 players I don't know, but now it's sure that Samsung would never sue anybody for sharing/leaking recovery tools. So licensed or not, I don't see any risk of hosting them on the Rockbox website
17:10:55[Saint]Well, its not necessarily about risk, but legality.
17:11:14[Saint]Rockbox shouldn't be associated with license violation or piracy of any form.
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17:14:04lebelliumThe Recovery tool for YP-Q3 is FWDN, a tool made by Telechips. So it's probably quite complicated regarding licensing. It's not only about Samsung
17:16:31pamauryis there something to extract ROM/RSC from BIN ?
17:17:20[Saint]lebellium: a brief search reveals its not complicated at all.
17:17:30[Saint]Its (apparently) freeware
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17:17:52lebelliumpamaury: I'm not sure, you should ask lorenzo
17:18:58[Saint]But the fact that it is readily available tells me there's little-to-no point putting it up in useful tools.
17:19:11[Saint]I sincerely doubt it'll fall off the net anytime soon.
17:20:23[Saint]I thought this may have been some super-secret-squirrel hush hush tool few new about and had access to. Apparently not, its everwhere.
17:20:27lebelliumThere are many versions of FWDN. I'm not sure you can use any with the YP-Q3 and not sure you can find the Q3 version
17:20:45[Saint]As far as I am aware it is generic.
17:21:12*[Saint] shrugs
17:21:45lebelliumthe version I have for Q3 is V5 V2.24
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17:23:32[Saint]Ahhh, I see. Android probably rocketed it into the limelight.
17:23:47[Saint]Rather, people psuedo-bricking Android devices.
17:25:46lebelliumYou can find the V5 V2.12 I published here 2 years ago: But honestly I don't know what's the difference between v2.12 used for P3 and 2.24 for Q3
17:27:03[Saint]probably little more than a list of hardware it is capable of recognizing.
17:27:12*[Saint] takes off his speculation hat
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17:41:49lebelliumOk looks like the v2.24 is needed for Q3. With FWDN v2.12 it says [ERROR] FWDN version mismatch is found!
17:41:54lebelliumnot that generic :)
17:43:24[Saint]Well, its still possible it is a "universal" tool.
17:43:46[Saint]It may be that the Q3 was introduced between *12 ans *.23
17:44:41lebelliumpamaury: I'm wondering for the target configuration SDRAM Size, is it 64MB(32bit)-0x20000000 like for P3? That's supposed to be the chip in Q3:
17:46:35*[Saint] wonders what Programmable Driver StrengthControl is
17:54:06lebellium4Meg x 4 banks x 32 bits > I assume that would mean either 4MB(32bit)-0x20000000 (which doesn't exist in FWDN) or 16MB(32bit)-0x20000000?
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21:18:20lorenzo92pamaury: ping
21:20:29lorenzo92pamaury: inside bin file you find the plain .rom and .rsc, you can search for "Ver:" (the usual tcc firmware format)
21:20:49lorenzo92it is a very simple format, but stll i don't understand their logic :)
21:21:31lorenzo92there is a 512kb header between .rsc and .rom files, 4 bytes indicating the position (offset) of the header, 4 bytes indicating .rom size and some other stuff i did not understand
21:22:33lorenzo92ah, and as plus, there are still some more bytes at the very end, but all zeros
21:23:35lorenzo92[Saint]: perhaps this is related to the strenght (mA sink/source) of gpio pins?
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23:09:13tertu"preemptive branch"?
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