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#rockbox log for 2013-11-27

00:00:36 Quit Narod ()
00:01:14 Quit chrisjj (Quit: Page closed)
00:08:56wodzso 3 levels of indirection - cute
00:10:13pamauryand that's a very very very simple case, this driver is horrible
00:14:14 Quit lebellium_gs2 (Quit: Bye)
00:15:58pamauryI don't know if anyone understand but I've reached the terrible moment where two sides of your RE meet and you realise that two objects X and Y you have defined must be equal and thus 1) either you've reach a contradiction 2) either you're just add such a huge relevation you cannot realise it can be true
00:18:45wodzI bet you made it right and now you posses the GODS knowledge about amsv2 rom
00:19:00pamauryhum, I suspect something is fishy rather
00:19:25 Quit ender` (Quit: ... Because without a death penalty, Christianity wouldn't exist.)
00:19:42pamauryI have already RE 300 functions just for usb and I don't understand anything about this driver
00:20:24wodzthats the 'beauty' of OO in lowlevel things
00:21:15 Quit markun (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
00:22:18pamauryI'm sure even Linux is simpler than this, and this is *not* a good point
00:26:06wodzpamaury: What the device is supposed to do in case of usb reset event?
00:26:34pamauryyou mean in general ?
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00:28:15 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
00:28:17pamauryI don't remember the details but at least reset its address, abort all transfers and deconfigure all its endpoints. In short it should return the a known state in which only EP0 is configured
00:29:35wodzso basically it should prepare for re-enumeration?
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00:35:37pamauryI think this qualifies as once of the strangest code I've seen:
00:36:00pamaury*as one
00:37:31[Saint]USB_thing is amusing
00:38:05pamauryhaha, that was at the beginning, when I still had ideas about funny names
00:38:13pamaurynow I just pick random ones
00:38:29pamaurylike this nice function: usb_wtf__get_ep_specific_something
00:39:41pamauryafter that I lost my mind and ended up with: usb_thing_leu__get_last_vector_elem_ptr
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01:04:45WaterAre the timestamps in the IRC log in GMT time?
01:05:51WaterNevermind, I'll use this post to figure it out.
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01:40:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:37:51Waterpamaury: ya there?
04:41:10WaterFuze+ battery bench done. Version acaedfd ran for 30h24m
04:43:24WaterI'll come back again to see if I can help bisect more.
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08:23:13kiwicamHi. How close is the Phillips GoGear Vibe SA4VBEOKF 8GB to the other Phiilip's devices being Rockboxed now? I quite like it. Surprisingly more so than an OF Clip+
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10:57:04pamauryWater: thanks for the bench
10:57:34lebelliumpamaury: what about the E360? :D
10:57:48pamauryI don't know, I just got up
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11:34:28wodzHa, ChibiOS exception handler confirms that I understand what I read :-) If you do not allow exception preemption you don't need to worry about saving s0-s8 and cpu status and config registers on MIPS.
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11:35:16wodzI guess onda's exception handler was copied/addopted from linux where it does matter.
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11:53:08pamaurylebellium: fuze+ reached 35h on the revision just before the offdending commit
11:55:11pamauryand E360 ran for 22h
11:57:19pamaurykiwicam: if my memory serves, I think it's quite different
11:59:12pamaurydoes it have a firmware upgrade available ? If so I can have a look at it and tell you
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12:05:26wodzpamaury: That means we are still 8h to regain battery runtime of 9faabb9 + g#525 + g#523 + g#526 according to SansaRuntime
12:05:28fs-bluebotGerrit review #525 at : by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/25/525/10)
12:05:29fs-bluebotGerrit review #523 at : Disable touch device on keyhold for targets that handle it by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/23/523/4)
12:05:29fs-bluebotGerrit review #526 at : [Fuze+] activate the automatic touchpad disable on keylock by Jean-Louis Biasini (changes/26/526/1)
12:05:50wodzs/are still/still have/
12:08:00pamauryyeah but the bench I did didn't include those changes
12:08:06pamauryI think
12:08:40wodzoh, I thought touchpad things were commited
12:09:24pamauryI was not benchmarking HEAD on the fuze+
12:09:39pamauryhum in fact it did, so maybe we are facing two power regressions
12:10:37pamaurymight also be a difference in battery, copper did the test with his but my battery seems a bit under
12:12:38pamauryanyway what is sure that: e90a5efe543914264bf697518ebf9564ff8a9964 -> 35h on my fuze+ and c4f2a46e0dfee336ce7016cd62608097f15367b8 -> 41h on copper's fuze+
12:14:20lebelliumwell, maybe there are 2 regressions but that's already a good start. 22hrs is much more usable than 10hrs :)
12:16:25chrisjjpamaury: So far, zen rework lcd enable seems successful. I.e. resume from "Backlight" standby no longer gives a white screen of life, and reboot thereafter no longer gives a black screen of death. I'll test some more.
12:16:58pamauryok thanks
12:22:41chrisjjI'd be interested to know what ZEN RB is doing after the Backlight period i..e in what I call device standby. Is it just turning off the backlight, or is it turning off the whole display unit?
12:23:47gevaertsWhy would you call that "device standby"?
12:23:52gevaertsIt's still doing stuff
12:25:09pamaurychrisjj: previously it was putting the display in standby mode but even the OF doesn't use this mode so now it just turn power down the display completely
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12:36:19chrisjjgevaerts: sorry, "display standby"
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12:38:47chrisjjpamaury: OK, so is the normal behaviour for RB? I thought Settings' 'Backlight' period was supposed to control just the backlight. The manual (for other targets) thinks so too.
12:39:09pamaury_I don't understand your question
12:39:32pamaury_Backlight is related to the display, when backlight is off we turn off the screen
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12:41:17chrisjjIs "when backlight is off we turn off the screen" normal RB behaviour? E.g. on other major targets? I ask becasue there's no mention of this in the docs that I can see.
12:42:52gevaertsIt depends
12:43:09gevaertsMostly on whether you can see anything on the screen with the backlight off
12:43:48gevaertsSee e.g.
12:43:53chrisjj"It depends" meaning it varies with target?
12:43:59pamauryyeah on all targets where backlight off means you can't see the screen, we turn off the display
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12:45:49chrisjjOK. gevaerts: that manual page makes no mention of display off that I can see. Did I miss it? Or is this one of the targets that does not do display off.
12:47:00pamauryI don't see the point chrisjj, that's an implementation detail
12:49:01chrisjjpamaury: Well, I do see the point of accurate documentation. Esp. when it comes to a feature that can cause severe problems - at it was until your fix of yesterday.
12:49:37foolshchrisjj: It
12:50:00chrisjjMoreover, I'd like to understand the point of gevaerts quote of that manual page. I'm sure there I have something to learn from him there :)
12:52:26pamaurywithout this "feature" your battery life will be much reduced. Backlight + lcd accounts for most of the power drain when it's on
12:54:18pamaurygevaerts simply pointed you to the list of settings we have for backlight, which is pretty already quite long
12:56:26chrisjjpamaury: OK, I though he was pointing me to something relevant to his "Mostly on whether you can see anything on the screen with the backlight off". Thanks for the clarification.
12:59:23chrisjjDo you know what proportion of screen's drain is down to the LCD?
13:00:39pamauryNo I don't have figures
13:02:45chrisjjOK, thanks. You might be interested to know that it is apparently not high enough for the OF's screen power save to bother doing display off. The OF's screen power save dims the backlight and hence of course leaves display on.
13:06:21pamauryThat doesn't mean anything, we have seen plenty of OF doing stupid things which cost a lot of power
13:10:53chrisjjWell, I wouldn't say it is stupid. It has the benefit of showing an image to the user. And I would not say it costs a lot of power. The tests I've done show it costs remarkably little, compared to the normal brightness backlight.
13:12:13chrisjjAnother advantage is it avoids the unslightly smack of full white that RB currently shows upon resume.
13:13:25pamauryI'm sorry but I'm sure most users will disagree with you, what is the point of showing something when you don't even look at it ? But then if you feel like contributing a new setting to control whether backlighit should be off or very low on inactivity, you can
13:13:38chrisjjHowever, I accept that RB has different benefit weightings for such features, relative to commercial OF, and rightly so :)
13:14:47chrisjjI do look at it during play. That's the point of WPS, surely.
13:16:13pamauryyou can disable backlight off, that's not a perfect fix but it works
13:18:06chrisjjIt works, but doesn't work as a power saver.
13:18:11chrisjjWhen I get a moment, I'll measure how much charge is being saved specifically by the display Off side-effect. And let you know, if you're interested.
13:19:19pamauryAs I said, if you want backlight dim, you'll have to implement it or convince someone to do it ^^
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13:19:40pamauryAt this point though, measurements will be useless
13:20:13pamauryWe don't scale the processor frequency and that's even more power hungry
13:20:57pamauryanyway, I'll be back later
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13:30:55chrisjjI'm not expecting backlight dim. I was just expecting backlight off as per the manual. For now, all I will suggest is that the manual be amended for accuracy.
13:31:14gevaertschrisjj: patches welcome on gerrit, but make sure they're *correct*
13:31:57chrisjj I agree with you about the processor frequency. But I'm less concerned about that since it is still on the to-do list... and I'm sure you'll do a great job on it :)
13:32:39chrisjjgevaerts: Any pointers to the definition of 'correct' will be gratefully received! :)
13:32:52gevaertsNot incorrect
13:33:33*gevaerts still doesn't see *at all* what exactly chrisjj is unhappy about
13:33:41chrisjjAnd 'incorrect' is defined as 'not correct', right? :)
13:34:47gevaertsI'll comment when I see your patch
13:36:00chrisjjI'm not unhappy. I'm very happy to now have a RB on ZEN where the undocumented display off effect doesn't prang the device. I am ever grateful to Amaury for the great work he's done.
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13:37:59chrisjjAnd I'll hope to ensure any patch was correct before you see it. :) But seriously my first path on this will be to the manual..There would be much less confusion if the manual was er... correct... w.r.t. the prorgam.
13:39:04chrisjjBye for now. And thanks again to A. Awesome work!
13:39:12gevaertsSo what exactly is the issue? Would you e.g. complain if we power down the usb controller before shutdown? I mean, we don't say anything about that in the manual...
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13:41:52chrisjjThe UI and manual says Backlight, whereas the code is actually operating backlight and LC too.
13:42:28gevaertsRight, so you *would* have a problem if we power down e.g. the sound chip if no playback is active?
13:42:46chrisjjPerhaps long ago when this setting was designed, labelled and documented, Backlight was accurate. Now, it is less so.
13:42:56chrisjjDunno about the sound chip. Sorry.
13:43:32gevaertsWell, it's *exactly* the same case. Rockbox is allowed to do things in the background that don't affect the user experience if it saves battery
13:44:33gevaertsWe don't tell the user about adjusting CPU frequency in the manual either
13:44:55chrisjjIn general I have a potential problem when a function labelled to do one thing actually does another. Esp. where that other function has a bad side-effect.
13:45:08gevaertsSo you object to features that might have bugs?
13:45:31foolshExtended battery life is not a bad side effect IMO
13:46:41chrisjjfoolsh: Agreed = if this does indeed extend battery significantly. But the crashes of the last week were, and the remaining white smack is.
13:48:00gevaertsSo whenever we have a bug, we need top document it in the manual instead of trying to fix it, even on targets in early development. OK, we will consider that
13:48:50chrisjjDisplay Off is not a bug. A has explained it is a deliberate feature.
13:49:05chrisjjBye for now and thanks for the advice.
13:49:28gevaertsMy advice is not to try to appear stupid
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14:26:13pamauryI'm completely confused by chrisjj, I don't understand the issue. How we manage the LCD is a technical details. If it doesn't work as expected that's a bug, we don't document bugs in the manual
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14:35:35wodzwell, I think he is biased by the fact that OF dims the displaye instead going all dark. When the backlight goes all dark there is not f* difference if you power down lcd or not unless it is transreflective one which is not the case here
14:36:25gevaertsSurprise! This isn't the OF!
14:36:36wodzThe bug was that the power down/up sequence WAS visible to the user and this was ahm a bug
14:36:48*gevaerts agrees
14:37:12gevaertsIf you have this white flash, you're doing things in the wrong order I guess, without enough delay.
14:38:04pamauryrockbox already init the display before backlight but it seems this lcd is very difficult to program correctly
14:38:08wodzgevaerts: It is enough to say you do it wrong, anything else is implementation detail :-)
14:38:14pamaurylots of timing issue, even tough I have the "datasheet"
14:39:10wodzpamaury: Whats the benefit of putting it in standby anyway? Wakeup time?
14:39:35pamauryI've drop standby, now I just switch it off completely
14:39:50pamauryyeah that would allow faster wakeup
14:39:50wodzpamaury: I know I ask what was expected benefit
14:40:06wodzhow much faster? Will the user notice at all?
14:40:34gevaertsIf the user notices the speed, maybe you should consider a setting like e.g. the ipod video has
14:40:58pamaurythe whole init sequence should take 200ms
14:41:08pamauryif you just go to standby mode and back, it's much faster, probably 10ms
14:41:21wodzthats barely noticable.
14:41:25pamaurybut I can't make standby mode work anyway
14:41:42wodzI wouldn't bother
14:42:16wodzthe backlight brightens slower most probably
14:42:55pamaurywhat chrisjj doesn't realise is that it took me week before being able to just display something, in comparison a little white flash seems like nothing
14:43:24pamauryand it still happen that the display stay black from time to time
14:51:49pamaurygevaerts: has anyone proposed a "backlight dim" option by the way ?
14:52:07gevaertsNot that I remember
14:53:21wodzthe old days it doesn't make any sense as b&w displays are perfectly readable without backlight
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15:07:12amiconnpamaury: I did (years ago...)
15:07:27wodzpamaury: What should I change to add freq analyzer for rk27xx?
15:07:51amiconnwodz: And in the really old days not possible either. Most of the old players have no means to control backlight brightness, they can only switch it on or off
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15:24:12pamaurywodz (logs): currently, create an analyser in std-analyser.{h,cpp}. It must derive from Analyser and implement GetWidget() which return the top widget you want to display in the right panel. In the constructor you must create this widget and fill it with the proper values. You must also implement SupportSoc() to tell if it support a special soc. The name is the top level name in the register desc file.
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18:15:14saratogaI see opus has a bunch of new optimizations committed this week
18:16:57saratogalooks like they haven't touched the fft though
18:17:13saratogaI should really look into those
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18:45:14chrisjjpamaury: I do realise Amaury that it took you a week to get a display (though actually I thought it probably took a lot longer). I very much realise how hard such development is, like finding a needle in a haystack in the dark.
18:48:23chrisjjpamaury: but a little flash is not necessarily just a little flash. Before your fix of yesterday, sometimes that flash would stick on, making the player unusable, and usually prevent the next boot, requiring a reset.
18:49:29gevaertschrisjj: *nobody* is denying that there was a bug
18:50:29chrisjjpamaury: I don't yet know the remaining flash threatens stability. I hope not. But I think it worth being vigilant seems we all know that an LCD can't itself crash a CPU, so there must have been some related code lockup, and in firmware they are a nightmare to solve once the tell-tales go underground.
18:51:40chrisjjpamaury: "If it doesn't work as expected that's a bug, we don't document bugs in the manual" Sure, but let's remember that this definition of a bug depends on what's expected, and what's expected depends in part on what's declared in the manual.
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18:55:41pamaurychrisjj: took me week*s*, and yes the lcd driver can lock up the cpu
18:56:24chrisjjpamaury: The manual does not give an expectation that the LC be affected by the Backlight setting, so by that definition, to someone with nothing more to go on, the LC effect is a bug. Of course, you personally have a different expectation - having coded the LC effect - so to you it is not a bug.
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18:57:19chrisjjpamaury: Because of such variation from the same definition, I asked here what it was others' expectation, rather than report it as a bug.
18:57:25pamauryI'm not saying it's not a bug (actually it is a timing issue), I'm just saying that the manual shouldn't mention bug
18:59:18chrisjjpamaury: I'm am aware an LCD driver can lock the CPU. What I said was that "an LCD can't itself crash a CPU".
18:59:20pamauryFirst, there is no official manual for the ZEN, second it is still in development. Everyone using beta software should be ready to suffer from little annoyances like this flash
19:00:03pamauryWhen the device fails tool to boot, it's because the lcd driver lock up, not because the cpu crashed
19:00:14pamauryIn this particular case of course, not in general
19:01:54chrisjjpamaury: I'm fine with annoyances like the little flash. I put effort into the issue only to help ensure it is no worse i.e. an ongoing risk that the now-usued LCD driver code having a crash risk will cause instability down the line.
19:02:49chrisjj"hen the device fails tool to boot, it's because the lcd driver lock up, not because the cpu crashed" Now that's interesting. I didn't make my report of the crash issue before but I did make many tests...
19:02:59gevaertschrisjj: pamaury is developing this thing. He notices bugs too. Having people go on and on about some minor issues during early development does not help *at all*. In fact, it's very demoralising
19:03:48gevaertsSo please don't speculate about this sort of thing until you know what "the cpu crashed" actually means
19:04:54chrisjj... and every time, when the flash stuck, in the white screen, the CPU was /not/ locked.
19:05:16gevaertsThe CPU is *never* locked, unless there's a hardware bug
19:05:23chrisjjThe device was fully responsive - just the screen barely readable.
19:05:48pamauryOk, I'm going to discolve all details, this way you'll understand everything
19:06:17chrisjjThe lock came only when the device (in the white screen state) was powered off and on. Then I got a baclk screen of death (after bootloader, before RB start screen.
19:09:00chrisjjgevaerts: I didn't speculate. And if I don't know what *the cpu crashed* means (despite an honours degree in Computer Science and 33 years industry experience) then I am more than happy to learn for pamaury, yourself, or anyone else.
19:09:35chrisjjOops. s/for pamaury, yourself/from pamaury, yourself/
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19:09:43gevaertschrisjj: good to know you're happu to learn from us then
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19:12:06pamaurySo first, you should now that this a TFT-LCD which is *normally white*. Which means that if you power only the backlight, it will appear as entirely white. Second, it means that until you have power the LCD, make the complete initialising *and* send the first frame, the display will appear as white unless backlight is off. This explains the little flash: rockbox enable the lcd and then backlight *but* the lcd init doesn't send a frame so until
19:12:06pamauryrockbox repaint the whole screen in black, you can see a white screen. It append very quickly but you can still pick it up. Now there is a completely different issue which is when you fail to properly power the lcd (for whatever reason you don't ensure proper timing on the SPI bus and the data is corrupted), then some physical parameters of the panel might not be properly registered in the controller side and it will not drive the lcd correctly
19:12:06pamaury. And this display is white, when it's not driven correctly it will naturally tend to display white rather than something else I guess. This explains the white vertical strides.
19:13:41pamauryThe second issue only appeared when going out of standby mode and since I couldn't find the fix, I just dropped standby mode.
19:14:40pamauryThe only unexplained bug is when, sometimes, the lcd stays black and the device is unresponsive. I've run into this one a few times and I don't know if that's related to the LCD or not. Might be a completely different issue.
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22:23:55timofonic4I would like to know it SanDisk Sansa Clip+ works correctly with Rockbox :)
22:24:10timofonic4And if there are news about supporting latest codecs, like Opus 1.1
22:26:01timofonic4And the functionality compared to Clip Zip in terms of support :)
22:26:07timofonic4Do the FM radio works too?
22:29:40timofonic4I see info about Clip+, but not about Clip Zip
22:30:11timofonic4I like Rockbox, but the site has many lacks like with the OpenWRT project. I understand this project is mostly geek oriented, anyway :)
22:30:51gevaertsClip+ and Clip Zip are almost identical apart from the screen, and they should work equally well with rockbox
22:31:31timofonic4gevaerts: Can someone add it to the following chart, please? :)
22:31:45gevaertsOf course you can! :)
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22:32:12timofonic4gevaerts: Oh, sorry. I did think the wiki was only editable by Rockbox Team developers
22:32:49gevaertsWell, you need to be added to a list to be allowed to edit it, but that's merely an anti-spam system
22:33:11timofonic4I need to add my real name? Damn
22:33:15gevaertsi.e. we give edit permissions to anyone who asks and who has followed the rules with regards to real name and things
22:34:04timofonic4gevaerts: Done :)
22:34:11timofonic4gevaerts: My nickname is timofonic
22:34:47timofonic4Wiki has received a suspicious change request from your browser. <−− I use NoScript and other paranoid stuff on my Firefox
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22:36:36timofonic4gevaerts: Do I have to use my realname as a wiki name? :P
22:37:15gevaertsBut someone else will have to do the actual activation. I just broke my networking here, so I can't access the website...
22:38:33timofonic4gevaerts: Your personal Foswiki topic JoseFrancisco has been created
22:38:34timofonic4okay :)
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22:39:31timofonic4gevaerts: So FM works on Zip too?
22:39:39gevaertsIt should, yes
22:39:48timofonic4okay :)
22:40:11timofonic4gevaerts: Do you know if Rockbox is translated to Spanish?
22:40:32lebelliumit is
22:41:56timofonic4There's a few words to translate, I'm going to submit at least two of them :)
22:42:13timofonic4The interface seems easy, what it is using?
22:44:16timofonic4 <−− I was only able to translate "Slow" to "Lento", the others are difficult for me
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23:28:49gevaertstimofonic4: you should have wiki edit permissions now
23:34:09timofonic4gevaerts: thanks :D
23:35:00pamaurywhich video formats do we support ?
23:35:20pamauryI think only mpeg2
23:35:28pamaurycan someone confirm ?
23:35:42pamauryor even better answer on the fuze+ thread
23:35:59gevaertsAlso 1
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23:36:38gevaertspamaury: is the thing to point to
23:36:46*gevaerts will reply
23:37:15pamauryyeah but my connection is terrible at the moment ^^
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