#rockbox 2013-12-04

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#rockbox log for 2013-12-04

00:04:59		Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
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00:06:22		Quit kugel_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:06:23		Join krabador [0] (~krabador_@unaffiliated/krabador)
00:10:07	pamaury	haha, I found the code of the production test mode :)
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00:13:16	pamaury	my device definitely has a fm tuner, it's just a software limitation
00:16:35	lebellium	great
00:17:09	lebellium	It's probably due to the European tax on FM tuners
00:17:28	lebellium	some manufacturers disable it in Europe to sell the device cheaper or increase their margin
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00:35:04		Join chrisjj [0] (561bb732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.27.183.50)
00:35:07	chrisjj	Devs, May one assume all references to SVN for current procedures are obsolete? e.g. http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySprayHowto "Please include: The SVN revision/release you are using and if possible the particular SVN revision in which you think the bug was introduced."
00:36:04	pamaury	chrisjj: yeah, now we use git commit id (usually short ids)
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00:37:42	chrisjj	So, is "git commit ID" the official terms for e.g. the pre-dash part of the Rockbox System, Info, Version: ?
00:38:48	pamaury	no, the git commit id only replaces the SVN revision
00:39:59	pamaury	ah ok, misunderstood the "pre-dash"
00:40:00	chrisjj	OK, so what term would you use for the pre-dash part of the Rockbox System, Info, Version: e.g.9ff1819 ?
00:40:14	pamaury	yeah it's a abbreviate/short commit id
00:40:20	chrisjj	OK! So answer is Yes?
00:40:28	chrisjj	OK, got it.
00:40:38	pamaury	yes, I thought you were suggesting the commit replaced everything sorry
00:40:43	chrisjj	I'm going to change "Please include: The SVN revision/release you are using and if possible the particular SVN revision in which you think the bug was introduced." to...
00:41:23	chrisjj	"Please include: The version number of the Rockbox version you are using and if possible the version number of the Rockbox version in which you think the bug was introduced."
00:41:32	chrisjj	OK?
00:43:24	pamaury	I find it a bit obscure
00:43:47	chrisjj	OK, what's better?
00:45:05	pamaury	I would rather replace the whole sentence by: "Please include the Rockbox release and if possible the version displayed in the system information (git commit ID)"
00:45:18	pamaury	*release version number
00:46:47	chrisjj	OK, but where does a user find the Rockbox release version number on the device?
00:48:30	pamaury	I'm not sure, I never run an official release. I think the system info displays the release if it's a release build and the git commit id otherwise
00:48:43	pamaury	So yeah, let's it be only "the version displayed in the system info"
00:48:54	pamaury	that's always the most precise information anyway
00:50:55		Quit nosa-j (Read error: Operation timed out)
00:53:46	chrisjj	OK, so "Please include the Rockbox version indentifier, found at System>Info, e.g. 9ff1819-131202"
00:53:58	chrisjj	Looks OK?
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00:58:53	pamaury	yeah perfect
01:00
01:03:31	chrisjj	Thanks, done.
01:04:17		Quit nosa-j (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
01:04:23	chrisjj	Hey, what do you think about the idea of a version terminology cleanup week??
01:04:55	pamaury	I guess there are lots of places on the wiki which still refer to the SVN
01:05:06	chrisjj	Only kidding :)
01:05:25	chrisjj	I'll amend any SNV version references I see...
01:06:26		Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
01:07:21	chrisjj	I wanted to ask your thoughts on the ZEN BSoD. Putting aside the "black screen" part, what do you think might be causing the "death" i.e. the non-responsiveness to buttons?
01:07:54	chrisjj	I won't say the cpu crashed again :) but clearly the CPU is stuck somehow.
01:10:09	pamaury	well, if I read correctly that the bootloader always manage to print something on the screen, and since the bootloader and rockbox code are running the same code, I think it might be due to some timing problem. For example some irqs or threads running in parallel of the lcd init and somehow disturbing it
01:10:12	pamaury	but that's just a guess
01:10:54	pamaury	the bootloader and rockbox don't have exactly the same init code
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01:13:58	chrisjj	Sure that could cause the black screen... but I'm thinking about what could cause the death.
01:14:07	chrisjj	The death is a CPU state, not an LCD state.
01:14:49	chrisjj	I wonder what actual state the CPU is in when "dead"... and how on earth any problem with the LCD code could get it there.
01:16:39	pamaury	my other theory is that it is related to power management
01:16:58	pamaury	that's the typical source of cpu hang with explaination
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01:23:45	chrisjj	So that CPU hang is what, precisely? Infinite loop?
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01:24:38	pamaury	is that's a power problem, it's a hung state, probably voltage brownout or something
01:24:42	pamaury	*if
01:25:16	pamaury	or pure and simple cpu lock up, strange things can happen when you drive the cpu out of the safe lands :)
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01:26:08	chrisjj	Oh, you mean the voltage on CPU Vcc is inadequate?
01:27:29	pamaury	the power management is complicated, if you don't do the right things in the right order, you can cause VDD or VDDIO brownouts yes
01:27:47	pamaury	I ran into many such problems on imx233 in the early development
01:28:12	pamaury	but again, just a theory
01:28:40	pamaury	however there should be a way to test it using the watchdog and reset maybe
01:29:13	pamaury	can you compile rockbox or not ?
01:30:33	chrisjj	No I can't compile.
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01:31:58	pamaury	they still are a few things to try out, like commenting the whole power setup code, add watchdog handler to blink the power led on massive failure and so on
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01:46:45	Chuckery	hallo everybody
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01:46:56	rocketnine	hello
01:47:06	Chuckery	how are you doing today?
01:49:23	Chuckery	hello?
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01:51:26	rocketnine	i'm great and yourself?
01:51:50	Chuckery	pretty good
01:51:59	Chuckery	rockbox seems pretty cool
01:52:19	Chuckery	but what I'm really looking at is some sort of mod for the ipod nano 7th generation
01:52:29	Chuckery	been shuffling through the files
01:52:32	Chuckery	pain in the arse
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01:54:39	Chuckery	seems like the sort of software that rockbox uses
01:54:55	Chuckery	need to be completely redone in order for it to allow use on the 7g platform
01:54:59	Chuckery	thoughts?
01:55:00	Chuckery	also
01:55:13	Chuckery	I tried loading some modified firmware on the ipod
01:55:16	Chuckery	and it flipped shit
01:55:22	Chuckery	went black
01:55:28	Chuckery	wouldn't mount
01:55:41	Chuckery	finally if came back on after about 5 hours
01:55:52	Chuckery	dunno what happened
01:55:56	Chuckery	thoughts?
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01:58:08	Chuckery	hello?
01:59:06	shadows	hi
01:59:27	Chuckery	hello
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02:00
02:00:03	shadows	no clue about Apple devices only know that I've read the firmware is encrypted or something like this
02:00:19	shadows	there is work in progress to have rockbox as an app
02:00:32	shadows	meanwhile you might try VideoLAN Client for iOS
02:02:57	Chuckery	nah bruh
02:03:01	Chuckery	this isn't ios
02:03:17	Chuckery	this is the weird shit that apple put on the new ipod nano
02:03:19	shadows	oh okaya
02:03:19	Chuckery	7th generation
02:03:59	shadows	I have Sansa Fuze / Clip / and also Android devices so I won't know much about your Apple device sorry
02:04:12	Chuckery	that's fine
02:04:22	Chuckery	I was just wondering if anybody had ideas about it
02:04:33	Chuckery	I think my issue with the bricking stuff
02:04:49	Chuckery	is that it freaks out after realizing the cache is not correct
02:04:59	Chuckery	I used to be able to bypass that with nanohack.me
02:05:04	Chuckery	but the site has gone down since
02:05:08	Chuckery	and I don't have the program
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02:07:42	Chuckery	thoughts?
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02:27:46	amayer	is gerrit still down? i get 503
02:32:04	amayer	I was kind of eager to see the new one
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05:42:07	[Saint]	Gah.
05:46:10	[Saint]	That's slightly annoying. Warble freaks out if you clean the build folder.
05:46:59	[Saint]	and you apparently can't pick it up and move it around without annoying it either.
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09:34:55	mortalis	Zagor: what happened with gerrit?
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09:39:34	GodEater	Upgrade gone wrong I'm guessing :)
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11:07:07	Zagor	hum, I didn't touch gerrit
11:11:19	Zagor	restarted
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11:20:28	pamaury	wodz: thanks for the info on the SDRAM ! How did you find out ? I couldn't find a datasheet
11:20:39	pamaury	2MB is not a lot, I thought it would have more :-/
11:29:14	wodz	pamaury: my google-fu is strong today!
11:30:15	pamaury	hey that's unfair, today I typed the exact same search string as yesterday and now the datasheet is the second result
11:30:54	pamaury	and incidentally, I had the datasheet on my hard drive but only realised it this morning
11:31:02	wodz	pamaury: different computer? google returns different results for me on home machine and when I am at work
11:31:37	wodz	I guess it tracks your queries history or something
11:39:45	wodz	pamaury: Did you try current version of clang to build rb for arm?
11:40:10	pamaury	nope, maybe I can try again tonight, but I'm lazy, building clang takes hours
11:40:33	pamaury	I think they are in RC, maybe they have a prebuilt version
11:40:47	wodz	no, they don't
11:41:44	pamaury	ok, I'll launch a compile now then, to be sure it's working tonight ^^
11:42:11	pamaury	also it takes Gigas of disk space
11:42:26	wodz	Or at least I couldn't find it. It took about 2h to compile on my box. Compilation is considerably faster with -j1 as single thread takes 2-3GB of mem so with more threads it starts to swap on my box
11:43:42	pamaury	I already had to download and recompile kate myself two days ago, I'm trying to track a memory leak and I already help found one bug
11:44:10	wodz	whats kate?
11:44:50	pamaury	text editor
11:45:28	pamaury	I hope you are not a dangerous user of Vim or Emacs, are you ?
11:45:51	*	wodz is proud user of Vim !
11:46:14	pamaury	kate has a Vi mode :p but no one seriously use that I think
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12:59:25	Ketturi	Possible idea: menu for sound setting profiles, example to change between loudspeaker and headphone profile, changing config file even from shortcuts add one unnessesery step and is not clean solution to day to day use
13:00
13:00:19	Ketturi	Or shortcut to config file could load file straight from one select press, not show user the .rockbox folder with all files
13:03:52	pamaury	Ketturi: I'm not sure I understand, is that so hard to go into Settings > Load/Restore/Save ? Or just change one setting when you need ?
13:06:13	Ketturi	well not that hard, but doing that settings -> load path every time changing between headphones and speakers is bit anoying, but still best solution it seems
13:07:32	pamaury	which target ?
13:09:39	Ketturi	ipod, which i must admit is very intuitive to move in menus, better than some other devices
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13:15:10	pamaury	I was not aware that we supported the speaker on some ipods
13:16:07	lebellium	which one?
13:17:19	pamaury	or I misunderstood which setting(s) you are referring to
13:18:22	fragilematter	maybe he's referring to external active speakers
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13:19:25	Ketturi	yah, external speakers, which could not be detected as they use normal audio out
13:20:23	pamaury	ah ok, so you have different set of audio parameters for different situations
13:20:54	pamaury	so your problem is that load/save saves all settings and you would prefer to only touch the audio ones
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13:43:09	*	[Saint] can't see why Shortcuts isn't an adequate solution.
13:54:11	SrRaven	Anyone here have the FiiO X3?
13:54:52	lebellium	No, those people are on head-fi :)
13:55:35	SrRaven	haha yeah I guess so :/
13:55:57	pixelma	Ketturi: also you can prepare config files that just include the settings you want to change
13:57:14	[Saint]	ah, yes, indeed. That's worth mentioning. my response kinda assumed that knowledge was present.
13:57:35	Ketturi	pixelma: yeah I found that out, but still menu with settable profiles would be nice ;P
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13:58:32	[Saint]	The problem is its /such/ a niche case, and the functionality is already there by way of the Shortcuts menu.
13:58:54	[Saint]	So, I wouldn't hold my breath, as it were.
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14:02:04	pixelma	[Saint]: I would need to read up on the shortcuts menu actually but maybe you can give a quick answer... What can you put there if you want to change more than one setting at once (e.g. bass, treble and volume) - can you put config files there or something similar?
14:02:53	Ketturi	You can but config files there, but shortcut leads to folder where they are
14:02:59	Ketturi	so its like 3 clics or so
14:03:27	[Saint]	It'll definitely be at least that from a menu setting...so.
14:03:56	[Saint]	This wouldn't ever make it to the "main page" of the menu.
14:04:06	[Saint]	To be honest I doubt it would make it in at all.
14:05:07	Ketturi	thout with ipods and audi out docs it could be made to automatically detect, when device is conneted
14:07:39	[Saint]	And what if you use several docks? Hope they all use the same audio configuration?
14:07:49	pixelma	so you would have a shortcut to lead you to the "Browse .cfg Files" in "Settings > Manage Settings"? Not sure that's worth it but maybe
14:08:22	[Saint]	pixelma: no, you have the shortcut lead you to whereever you left the file, with it selected as the current item.
14:09:01	[Saint]	basically, the caveat is having to press select twice. that's it.
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19:14:22	chrisjj	Test
19:16:10	pamaury	chrisjj: yes ?
19:16:43	chrisjj	Just checking... :)
19:18:35	chrisjj	But since you are here, tell me please, from where precisely in the source tree comes the full device name ? e.g. the string "Creative Zen" in the heading here: http://www.rockbox.org/dl.cgi?bin=creativezen
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19:20:42	pamaury	I think they come from here: http://git.rockbox.org/?p=www.git;a=blob;f=buildserver/builds;h=dbfcca1e47bc0978d3d50ccb9f638e03654ae280;hb=HEAD
19:26:28	chrisjj	Thanks but then how come the two show different casing "Creative Zen" v "Creative ZEN" ?
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19:30:43	pamaury	must come from something else then ^^
19:31:41	pamaury	could be this: http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=blob;f=tools/builds.pm;h=43e5291f1fcfde376e7119c97abf587944d4f32d;hb=HEAD
19:31:50	pamaury	I don't know how exactly this page is generated
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19:38:31	chrisjj_	I'd hope that is generated from tools\configure http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=blob;f=tools/configure;h=b33c798a3a783e17ff86e4bc80372806203e762c;hb=HEAD
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19:40:12	pamaury	chrisjj_: no, configure is just a technical tools to do the build
19:40:33	pamaury	tools/builds.pm tells the status of the ports and what should be build on release (more or less)
19:40:37	chrisjj	"technical tools"? Could you explain?
19:40:50	pamaury	you run it to compile rockbox
19:41:05	chrisjj	So, what carries the info on a new port from tools/configure to tools/builds?
19:41:29	pamaury	it contains all the information to compile Rockbox, but it doesn't contain any information about the status target or whether we should release or whether the build server should build it
19:41:59	pamaury	first you edit configure, when target works you add it to tools/builds to have the build bots compile it on each commit
19:42:12	pamaury	err sorry to buildserver/builds
19:42:36	pamaury	and finally you add it to tools/builds.pm to give the target status, that's what is used by the website I think
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19:43:34	chrisjj	OK, thanks - I'll add a placeholder for that additional extra step to http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PortingHowTo#tools_47configure
19:44:27	pamaury	well that's not really part of the porting procedure
19:44:47	pamaury	that's more about releasing than porting
19:46:39	chrisjj	OK, then I'll wait for http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ReleasingHowTo :)
19:47:35	pamaury	yeah we should definitely write this down
19:48:05	gevaerts	Well, there is http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ReleaseChecklist
19:48:10	gevaerts	Not entirely up to date though
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19:49:11	pamaury	it tells how to do the release but not how to add a player to the release or change its status
19:49:21	chrisjj_	We need Google Summer of Documentation :)
19:50:24	pamaury	if everyone who knew something important would write it down, that would already be a lot
19:50:45	chrisjj_	Excuse all the nick changes - freenode webclient has been crashing all day.()
19:50:49	pamaury	like me trying to documentation the porting procedure ^^ I've stalled we could say ;)
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19:51:28	chrisjj_	These things have to be a two-man job IME. One thinks and talks, the other listens and writes.
19:54:13	chrisjj_	Back to the target name, it seems the ultimate source is target/configure ... except that some steps from that are manual and a little error-prone.
19:55:23	pamaury	Depends what you mean by target name: name displayed in Rockbox ? name displayed on the website ? name by the tools ? name in the manual ? We have multiple copies
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19:56:19	chrisjj_	Well yes we do have multiple copies, and they are often inconsistent e,g, case Createive ZEN, Creative Zen.
19:56:57	chrisjj_	Tell me if I am wrong, but we'd hope for consistent name on RB, site, and manual, for sure.
19:57:24	chrisjj_	And we'd hope for correct name e.g. Creative ZEN, not Creative Zen.
19:58:26	pamaury	Personally I don't care but yeah I guess we'd hope for consistency, although ZEN vs Zen does not seem to be the biggest issue at the moment :)
19:58:44	chrisjj_	Perhaps I should say not "correct" but "official".
19:59:48	gevaerts	Usually there is no single official name
19:59:48	chrisjj_	Well even RB is not the biggest issue at the moment :)
19:59:55	gevaerts	Try e.g. finding how to capitalise iriver
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20:01:23	chrisjj_	Um, no capitalisation, surely?
20:01:40	gevaerts	It changes over time
20:03:10	gevaerts	I think we need to concentrate on the internal names (like "sansafuzeplus"). Inconsistency there can cause actual issues. I dpnm
20:03:42	gevaerts	I don't care much about the fancy other name
20:05:53	chrisjj_	A goos way to get consitent internal name would be to start with a consistent external name, and a simple policy rule to apply to it.
20:07:15	gevaerts	So what do you do with things that have multiple external names?
20:07:20	chrisjj_	Currently the source seems to have three internal names - modelname target and t_model - and no external.
20:07:36	gevaerts	The source doesn't need any external name
20:07:51	pamaury	chrisjj_: I think you must realise that what happen in real life in the opposite: people hack something and one day it works on sansafuzeplus, so they call it "Sansa Fuze+"
20:07:53	chrisjj_	... and all three seems inconsistent... unless there's a policy here that I don't know.
20:08:45	chrisjj_	Sure I realise devs hack it. Just like I see users hack the RB binary... and get called stupid :)
20:09:46	chrisjj_	People are forced to hack where there's nothing better, e.g. something to tell them how to do it properly.
20:10:37	pamaury	Are there people hacking RB binary ?
20:11:17	chrisjj_	Multiple external names are not a problem. RB needs only one. I suggest the porter's job includes choosing the best... and writing it in to target//configure "official_name" or somesuch.
20:11:41	gevaerts	They are
20:12:00	chrisjj_	P, yes e.g. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=43507.0
20:12:28	pamaury	oh my...
20:12:29	gevaerts	You're overlooking things that use the same firmware but are seen as different devices
20:13:42	pamaury	like the creativezen target which is actually compiled to Creative ZEN, ZEN X-Fi, ZEN V and ZEN Mozaic
20:17:14	pamaury	anyway, I understand we are not doing things perfectly but I think we achieve something reasonable with how current way of working
20:17:38	pamaury	*with our
20:18:00	chrisjj_	No, I'm not overlooking that. creativezen is not "the same firmware" for the different devices.
20:19:00	chrisjj_	And note that Creative ZEN, ZEN X-Fi, ZEN V and ZEN Mozaic are individual targets in /configure
20:19:07	gevaerts	iaudio X5 X5L X5V
20:19:11	pamaury	but not in the source code
20:19:25	gevaerts	Philips GoGear HDD1630 HDD1830
20:19:35	gevaerts	Ipod 1G and 2G
20:19:37	pamaury	NWZ E380 / E370
20:19:43	chrisjj_	P, I agree the result is reasonable. All of RB is more than reasonable. But still we seek to improve, no?
20:20:54	chrisjj_	What do you think about putting the RB official device name in /configure? Then the code, site and manual can all take it from there, saving repeated manual copy and adjust.
20:21:58	gevaerts	No
20:22:07	pamaury	it's not as simple, things get compiled/used in very different ways, it's actually more trouble than anything
20:22:08	chrisjj_	e.g. target_id=90 targetname="Creative ZEN"
20:22:12	gevaerts	First of all, if it should be anywhere, it should be in builds.pm
20:22:22	gevaerts	or similar
20:22:34	gevaerts	configure is just one of the many users of the name
20:22:50	chrisjj_	In builds.pm even though the other three names are in configure?
20:23:29	chrisjj_	And in builds.pm even though the target is not there before release?
20:26:07	pamaury	If it's just a matter of a spelling, running grep on the entire source tree to check it the same everywhere seems no big deal
20:26:27	pamaury	far simpler than having complicated mechanism to write it in one place
20:33:58	chrisjj_	Wouold that be safe? I'd assumed there was some reason for the current three different spellings in configure. Else why would the second and third have been added?
20:34:21	pamaury	which spelling ?
20:35:08	chrisjj_	Spelling in e.g. http://pastebin.com/H4CZRvn1
20:35:26	chrisjj_	modelname="creativezen" target="CREATIVE_ZEN" t_model="creative-zen"
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20:36:41	pamaury	these are very different:
20:36:41	pamaury	- modelname is the switch used to where running configure again (so it's local to configure)
20:36:41	pamaury	- target is the name of the #define used in the source to identify the target
20:36:41	DBUG	Enqueued KICK pamaury
20:36:41	pamaury	- t_model is the name of the subdirectory under firmware/target/<arch>
20:41:20	chrisjj_	No surprise there. :)
20:42:19	pamaury	notice none of them is displayed somewhere, these are all internal
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20:43:03	pamaury	actually modelname is not very local to the script since it's used by all the tools which call configure, so that's many of them ^^ That the most important one in fact
20:43:05	chrisjj_	So it seems to me ti would be very tricky to use a tree grep to check that all the spellings that should be the same are the same.
20:43:31	pamaury	you don't get it, these are *internal*, they don't mean anything, they are not displayed
20:43:38	chrisjj_	I get it.
20:44:04	pamaury	your target could be called fuckingmanufacturer-stupiddac and display "Beautiful device on screen" ^^
20:44:40	chrisjj_	Yup :) But where in the source would I define "Beautiful device on screen"??
20:45:02	chrisjj_	To be clear: where would I define the variable having the value "Beautiful device on screen"?
20:45:19	pamaury	in the target config file, there is a #define which gives the name of the device to be displayed on the screen
20:46:07	pamaury	#define MODEL_NAME "Creative Zen"
20:46:55	pamaury	but I'm not sure it's even used somewhere
20:47:08	pamaury	maybe in some bootloaders and plugins
20:47:37	pamaury	be back soon
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22:25:26	wodz	pamaury: ping
22:28:13	pamaury	wodz: pong
22:30:14	wodz	pamaury: are blocking transfers used at all in rockbox usb? I spotted in rk27xx driver that struct endpoint_t defines semaphore for blocking transfers which is NOT volatile but it is released in IRQ context. I don't know if that matters but it is definitely a bug
22:30:46	pamaury	yeah blocking transfers are used
22:31:31	pamaury	ah indeed
22:32:17	pamaury	wodz: but isn't semaphore already volatile ?
22:32:50	wodz	pamaury: BTW. after more detailed study of the driver for cusb2 in ralink sources I think I know all important bits to implement udc driver.
22:32:54	wodz	pamaury: don't know
22:34:17	pamaury	kernel.h shows it has a few volatile fields
22:35:31	wodz	yes
22:35:36	pamaury	yeah I think it's okay, the semaphore code is already irq protected and the fields which matter are volatile
22:36:14	wodz	:-/
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22:37:00	pamaury	but you can try to see if it makes a difference :)
22:37:25	wodz	this driver works on my dap/computer so I will not see any difference
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23:03:12	pamaury	gevaerts: in sd.h
23:03:13	pamaury	bool sd_removable(IF_MV_NONVOID(int drive));
23:03:13	pamaury	bool sd_present(IF_MV_NONVOID(int drive));
23:03:28	pamaury	that seems wrong, it should be IF_MD_NONVOID right ?
23:03:29	gevaerts	Hmmm
23:03:30	gevaerts	Yes
23:07:00	pamaury	yeah definitely, others storage systems use IF_MD
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23:49:14	pamaury	yeah I managed to make i2c read work in PIO mode
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23:49:20	pamaury	even though the datasheet says it's impossible
23:50:56	[Saint]	s/impossible/...we tried and gave up/
23:50:59	[Saint]	:)
23:51:16	[Saint]	(possibly didn't even try :))
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