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#rockbox log for 2013-12-12

00:16:44 Quit ender` (Quit: Eighty percent of all people consider themselves to be above-average drivers.)
00:20:41 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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00:27:35 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 26.0/20131202182626])
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02:57:59saratogawhat is the cause of this sudden influx of spam? did we lose our spam filtering software?
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07:22:26FoocupHey, I was wondering if anyone could help me?
07:22:55FoocupI'm having trouble getting my PC to recognize my iPod Classic once in DFU mode
07:23:11*JdGord|w points to [Saint]
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09:45:53FoorudAnyone know why my iPod isn't recognized my my PC after installing rockbox?
09:46:51[Saint]Which iPod
09:47:04FoorudClassic 7G 120GB
09:47:23[Saint]Are you using the fallback image?
09:47:49[Saint]Try that.
09:48:01FoorudAlright, thanks.
09:48:04[Saint]Boot it from the emCORE tools menu.
09:49:05FoorudThat didn't work :/
09:49:49[Saint]That is very odd. What OS is this?
09:49:53[Saint](the host)
09:50:29FoorudIf that's what you mean,
09:50:53[Saint]No, the machine you're plugging it in to.
09:51:02FoorudOh, Windows 8.
09:53:10[Saint]Its not a USB 3 port by any chance is it?
09:53:34FoorudI have the drive symbol with a question mark.
09:53:45[Saint]That is very odd. How did you manage to install ROckbox in the first place?
09:54:15[Saint]Did it stop working, or has it never worked?
09:54:47FoorudI had it working for maybe 20 seconds and I put a few songs on it then the window closed and it stopped working
09:56:27FoorudI just plugged it in and it says data abort at 0802bff8
09:58:14***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:58:44FoorudJust got it to open again and then it closed after a few seconds
10:00:19FoorudGuess I'll just try again in the morning, thanks for the help.
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11:21:02pamaurywodz: I have the ZEN MX :)
11:21:11wodzoh goodie
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11:32:39pamauryIt's weird that they put play/pause on the same button as power
11:33:52wodzthat is quite common, no?
11:34:05Wade_is ipod classic rockbox no apple accessory support or dual boot problems still being investigated, or is that something that has been deemed a dead horse?
11:34:51pamauryI mean, why did they change the ZEN design which was very good
11:35:10wodzWade_: I guess TheSeven seriously lacks time to advance the development and noone jumped in
11:35:29Wade_do you think TheSeven would accept a bribe?
11:36:14wodzonly if it is in 'free time extenders units' :-)
11:36:20Wade_because i'd rather pay money for rockbox to work properly like it does on 5.5g and older than sell my late 09 160gb to procure a 5.5
11:37:41wodzWell apple accessory is a bit complicated. Older protocol is probably quite easy to support (UART based one). The problem is that AFAIU newer accessories use encrypted usb transfers
11:37:45Wade_is there a dev similarly or more competent than TheSeven that might have sufficient free time to investigate and just lacks the device or what? because it's been broken for years.
11:38:17wodzWade_: not within rockbox community I am afraid
11:38:30Wade_that sucks ass, my car's dash is one solid piece so i can't replace the cd player with one that has RCA inputs so i need that usb out to work
11:39:01Wade_do you know when newer accessories switched to encrypted usb?
11:39:26wodzno, that is not my field of expertise
11:39:41*pamaury will never work on iPod, never never never
11:39:43Wade_is there someone specific I should ask rather than randomly positing queries in this channel?
11:40:05wodzTheSeven :-)
11:40:14Wade_mamaury, i just like it because if i put a 128GB+ flash drive in my car
11:40:32Wade_it reads the fat table and i can't sort the shit at all, it's all based on the order in which the music copied onto the drive
11:41:20Wade_please forgive my language, i have slept since i read the rules. i did click the link that the bot spit out after i joined the channel yesterday. i will do my best to be more careful.
11:43:19wodzatj pll is weird - It doesn't seem to have a field informing you that it is in locked state. OF just inserts 8 nops and assumes everything is ok after that
11:50:21Wade_I have no idea what atj, pll (outside of an x58 and x79 intel chipset bios settings), or what a nop is
11:51:10wodzWade_: this wasn't message for you directly
11:51:22Wade_what are you trying to fix?
11:52:30wodzI am working on porting rockbox to Iriver e series (e100/150/200/300). It uses Actions atj2135n SoC. I was referring to frequency settings.
11:54:04Wade_oh ok
11:58:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:00:00pamaurywodz: I've seen many code just wait some time for lock instead of checking the lock state...
12:00:34wodzpamaury: no I mean there is no such bit in pll control register
12:01:28pamauryyeah but many codes just don't use them when there is one ^^
12:01:53pamaurywhy do you need a state bit if you don't use it ;)
12:15:20 Quit ender` (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
12:17:48wodzpamaury: btw, I tried to dump registers on rk27xx. I passed reg desc file to the shell as an arg but when issuing DUMPER.dump_all("filename") it returns some error I don't understand (and can remember now of course)
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12:46:27pamaurywodz: give me the precise error when you retry
12:46:57wodzpamaury: will do
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13:19:05pamaurydamn, I'm afraid the ZEN MX might use raw NAND, I can't see any sd/flash bridge on the PCB
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13:25:10pamauryand it's based on Sigmatel SDK instead of nucleus kernel, so it's quite different from the ZEN software-wise
13:28:34pamauryso that's one more insight to handle nand in imx233
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14:14:42pamauryand it only has 2MB of RAM ?!
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15:22:33lebelliumpamaury: you're still abroad?
15:24:02pamaurylebellium: no
15:24:08pamaurywent back on saturday
15:24:28lebelliumso you also got the X-Fi Style? :D
15:27:19pamaurymy brother has it, long story
15:27:35pamauryI'll get it at christmas when I see him
15:27:42pamauryI've got the ZEN MX now
15:27:50lebelliumYeah I read that
15:28:03lebelliumwhat does the central button do on MX then?
15:29:36lebelliumah now I understand
15:29:46lebelliumthere is one button less on MX
15:30:09lebelliumon the X-Fi style there are the same buttons + dedicated on/off
15:30:53lebelliumdoes that mean there is no "hold" feature on the MX?!
15:31:55 Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
15:33:11pamaurylebellium: indeed
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15:33:35pamauryand it's very minimal: 2MB of memory only, raw NAND
15:34:19lebelliumyes but it has a sd slot
15:34:35lebelliumthe X-Fi Style doesn't
15:36:49pamaurybut the X-Fi Style has Phison bridge so internal storage appears as SD which makes it trivial to port
15:37:33lebelliumgood news
15:38:56pamauryI'm doing a bit of RE on the ZEN MX to see what are the other differences
15:39:43lebelliumI just bought a YP-S3. I know bertrik is not willing to continue his preliminary work on this target but maybe you will one day :D
15:39:52pamauryI have one iirc
15:39:57lebelliumyes you have
15:40:00lebelliumI checked :D
15:42:09lebelliumNow I just need to buy a YP-S5 and YP-T10 and then I guess I would have all Samsung players released since 2006-2007
15:42:43pamaurythe T10 is nice but fragile
15:43:04pamaurythe S5 looks cool but I don't know if it is
15:43:19lebelliumyes plastic case... and the stupid Sammy UI is laggy :)
15:44:02pamaurybut I don't plan to work on other targets soon, first I need to consolidate all the new targets
15:46:28pamauryI need to finish so many targets: ZEN X-Fi/2/3/Style, ZEN/MX/V/V Plus, Sansa Express, Sony NWZ360/370 ^^
15:46:59lebelliumdepends on what you call "finish" :)
15:47:41pamauryat least everything working and supported by RBUtil if possible
15:47:54pamauryand reasonable keymap and perhaps manual
15:48:30lebelliumthey would become stable targets then
15:48:32lebelliumthat's much work^^
15:51:49pamaurystable takes time, but this is looking good, many problems are shared: the stfm1000 radio is unsupported and common to many players
15:51:59pamauryalso power management is common to all
15:52:05pamaurysony nwz has battery life problem
15:52:34pamauryand of course there is nand flash but that's not mandatory since with have SD slot on zenxfi2 and zenmx
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15:58:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:59:46pamauryfor the samsung devices, I think the situation is pretty favorable: they mostly use two different socs for which we have support, but many of them use nand flash which is a pain
16:01:55lebelliumyes, only a very few Samsung have a microSD slot
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16:35:50chrisjjpamaury: "I mean, why did they change the ZEN design which was very good" Cost reduction.
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16:59:52pamauryI'm not sure removing the power slider resulted in a huge cost reduction ^^
16:59:59 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
17:00:04pamauryHowever reducing the RAM and remove the bridge must have yeah
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17:31:50chrisjjAbout the slider agreed, but you know how it is with these people - every penny pinched is a penny saved! :)
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17:33:02pamauryespecially since it has no hold button (:
17:35:09chrisjjI don't know whether this is relevant to your objectives A, but you might like to know that the ZEN MX user base is very small, relatively speaking.
17:37:13pamauryI'm aware of it, but I would like to see what can be done, at least quickly
17:37:20pamauryI think it uses the same screen as the ZEN
17:38:14 Quit Strife89 (Quit: Rebooting)
17:38:34 Quit petur (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
17:39:22pamauryand it's also STMP3700 so it provides another way of debugging problems
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17:58:24***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:00:39chrisjjGood they haven't cost-reduced the screen to cause more problems :)
18:02:00chrisjjpamaury: Re the ZEN plain, I've sketched a device picture for RB:
18:03:47lebelliumchrisjj: it's made from Creative official press pics, isn't it?
18:04:04chrisjjAbsolutely not. It is drawn by me.
18:04:28chrisjjWhy thinks you?
18:04:29lebelliumWith Inkscape?
18:04:45lebelliumwe found the man
18:04:50lebelliumwe have much work for you :P
18:05:18chrisjjYou've lost me there. Drawing a picture is far easier than coding! :)
18:05:29lebelliumIt's a SVG pic right?
18:05:41amayerchrisjj: that looks great!
18:06:00lebelliumOnly two people are doing that here and they are very busy.
18:06:06chrisjjI'm now looking for the various places in the project that need a device picture, the format required and the attendance artistic variants. So far I have found 1) www\playerpics 2) rockbox simulator 3) manual.
18:06:08lebelliumso it is probably not that easy
18:06:08chrisjjDid I miss any?
18:07:48lebelliumI can't say for sure. But I can tell you easily what you could do too since perfectrug and pixelma have no time: All Creative players, Sony NWZ and Samsung YP-R1/Z5
18:08:26lebelliumI tried with inkscape and miserably failed. pamaury too. So you can save us :D
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18:08:56chrisjjI work by eye and sadly I don't have those players, but perhaps I could fake it.
18:09:42lebelliumyou don't take an official press pic as basis to convert it to SVG?
18:09:43chrisjjPerhaps from photos.
18:10:50chrisjjI followed the style of the ZEN press pic becasue it is kind of iconic in its own way, but the differences come from looking at the device.
18:11:10pamaurychrisjj: wow, great picture
18:11:23chrisjjIt is OK for other devices to just redraw a press pic?
18:11:46pamauryyeah, as long as you do it by yourself and you are not copy pasting that's fine
18:12:08pixelmaI haven't really "converted" playerpics, just took a good photo and drew the outlines on top of it first, then went on from there with filling gradients and stuff
18:12:09pamaury(you can copy paste our logo though ^^)
18:12:32chrisjjI did check the license :)
18:12:36pamaurymy drawing skills are negative compared to yours :-/
18:14:21lebelliumchrisjj: that's the best I could do lebellium/R1/R1rockboxed2.svg."> As it's bad, I gave up :)
18:14:52lebelliumI don't like losing my time when people do it far better than me
18:15:06gevaertschrisjj: did you check the various svgs in manual/rockbox_interface/images? We need a text layer with the buttons in there, and then someone needs to find the script or commandline we normally use to convert to the various sizes we need
18:15:31pixelmaI had my problems with transparent fillings in the SVG when used during the manual build process, so I avoided it by replacing them with colour fillings that looked the same in the end but that meant more work (more containers to fill and find out what "end colours" they needed
18:16:26pixelmaI'm not aware of any commandline for different sizes...
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18:16:39chrisjjgevaerts: yes, and could not fathom the requirements from that.
18:17:38 Quit fragilematter (Quit: Leaving.)
18:17:49gevaertschrisjj: IIRC we just need a separate layer named "text" with the button labels and arrows
18:17:51chrisjjgevaerts: wouold you be interested in spending some time with me to make up a minimal write up of the art requirements of a device?
18:18:26 Quit Bluefoxicy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
18:19:04pixelmathe playerpic PNGs are exported from inkscape with the longest dimension set to 80 pixels IIRC
18:20:40gevaertspixelma: I'm fairly sure Zagor and I once worked out a way to do it from the cli. Trying to find that now...
18:22:04chrisjjgevaerts: Meaning that teh SVG is a master, and Inkscape is in the build tool set??
18:22:16gevaertschrisjj: no
18:22:41gevaertssvg is the master, but the manual toolchain can use that directly
18:22:55gevaertsThe others are website and themesite, and those are done once by hand
18:23:17gevaertsBut the idea is that we can regenerate those if we need to
18:23:24chrisjjOK, I get it.
18:24:04chrisjjwebsite, themesite ... and simulator?
18:25:41pixelmathe manuals can use SVG directly not inkscape ;)
18:25:48gevaertsWell, simulator is handled entirely separately again, for reasons I'm not aware of. You'll notice that quite often those are based on a photo
18:25:54pamaurysimulator is a bit more problematic because we need exact positioning for the screen
18:25:57pixelmacan not use inkscape I mean ;)
18:26:33gevaertsPay special attention to the iaudio 7 simulator image :)
18:26:38chrisjjpixelma: OK, so the format is SVG and Inkscape is just one possible creation tool.
18:27:05chrisjjSimulator use of photo is not a good decision, I think.
18:27:17pixelmagevaerts: only reason for the simulator being different is "history" and noone doing the work required to recreate the simulator background from the SVGs
18:27:39gevaertsYes, likely
18:27:40pixelmaI think
18:27:51chrisjjSimulator would best be served by SVG defining positions, I think, but perhaps leave that to future.
18:28:09gevaertsI don't disagree, but that's not a trivial change
18:28:48gevaertsThere are some other simulator things that make reusing the svgs tricky, such as the images with side views to see the buttons better
18:29:00chrisjjgevaerts: understood. At least the simulator image ought to show the button boundaries to the user, I think. And that is easy.
18:29:17gevaertschrisjj: if the buttons are on the front, sure
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18:29:33chrisjjgevaerts: but again should be planned rather than ad-hoc per device.
18:29:59chrisjjgevaerts: good point :) Thankfully we have none on back ... I think.
18:30:22gevaertschrisjj: also remember remotes
18:30:32pixelmaand I don't think it would be a good idea to embed the click boundaries in the picture. If there was a way to draw them based on what's in the simulator code that would be better IMO
18:31:02gevaertsAnyway, the one hard rule is: we need an svg master. A slightly less hard rule is that we want a layer named "text" so we can easily hide the labels
18:31:04chrisjjgevaerts: Re remots, which device is most representative?
18:31:41gevaertsiriver h1x0 and h3x0 I'd say
18:33:13pixelmahmm, reminds me that I still have SVGs of remotes that aren't used in their manuals yet (I believe I drew everyone needed)... :\
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18:34:43chrisjjpixelma: re boundaries, I think you'd find code > data less good, but that's a big subject so probably left aside for now.
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18:35:44chrisjjI see rockbox-HEAD-cbed7ec\manual\rockbox_interface\images ...
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18:36:37chrisjj... has PDF, PNG and SVG for most devices. Are these three all actually used by the build?
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18:38:25gevaertsLooks like we didn't integrate automated pdf and png generation yet, probably due to tools requirements
18:38:30chrisjjAre there any written requiremetns or instructions for the workflow? Sorry if I overlooked it in the wiki.
18:38:48gevaertsI *suspect* we use pdf and png for the manual build
18:38:54gevaertsAnd not the svg
18:38:59pamauryyeah, the lcd *kindofwork* on ZEN MX
18:39:07pamauryas in display random garbage ^^
18:39:49pixelmathe wikipage was called ManualHowto I believe which had some instructions for the SVG too
18:40:05chrisjjgevaerts: OK, fine, so is this correct: SVG is master, used only by manual conversion to PDF and PNG.
18:40:17gevaertsYes, for now. We need to automate that bit...
18:41:15pixelmagevaerts: hmm, SVG -> EPS -> epstopdf was what I used back then, IIRC
18:41:41pixelmaand epstopdf didn't like transparencies
18:41:41gevaertspixelma: inkscape can go straight to pdf these days
18:42:28gevaertsSo it should be easier now
18:42:32pixelmayeah. Maybe imagemagick would be something to go to nowadays
18:42:50chrisjjIs theer some significance to the SVG having the labels OUTside the page? e.g.
18:43:55gevaertschrisjj: I don't *know*, but that might make exporting without labels easier
18:44:25pixelmaI think that was for better readability only
18:44:31pixelmawell "only"
18:44:53chrisjjCan't see how it is better :) Note that the leaders are still within the page.
18:45:42gevaertsI suspect it doesn't matter much, as long as the tools we use to convert can properly find the area used, which they should really do
18:45:54chrisjjgevaerts: to which export do you refer? I see no without-label export in manual\
18:46:28gevaertschrisjj: we need the without-label one, even if it's not documented :)
18:46:39gevaertsAnyway, I'll see if I can work on this a bit tonight
18:46:57pixelmaah, that's what you mean (hadn't looked at the picture before). AFAIR the labels and leaders were added later and resizing the canvas messed with the whole drawing back then (maybe a bug in this specific inkscape version)
18:46:58chrisjjOK, but where? www perhaps?
18:47:14gevaertswww and themesite
18:47:27gevaerts e.g.
18:48:47gevaertsAnyway, I'm thinking that if we have a properly commented script that takes the svg and produces all other forms, that should help
18:50:25chrisjjAre you proposing document the human workflow for now and add scruipt later, or do script now? Former seems safer to me.
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18:55:54chrisjjpixelma: Inkscape page resize now works fine. But before anyone changes it, let me say it looks to me as if it might be being used as a region for one of the exports e.g. www\playerpics\ .
18:56:46chrisjjClarification: But before anyone changes * the page size *, let me say it looks to me as if it might be being used as a region for one of the exports e.g. www\playerpics\ .
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19:00:21chrisjjgevaerts: "www and themesite". I see that themesite borrows from www at runtime, so has no additional build step.
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22:05:50pamaurylebellium: I have some clues about nwz power usage
22:06:12pamauryI managed to dump the OF registers and it tweaks many pins related to audio
22:06:34pamauryI found the relevant code in the OF but it's very complicated, there must 5+ pins which do various things
22:06:45pamauryI think I found a microphone gate
22:07:13pamaurythere are two pins which seem to be related to "EU volume regulation"
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22:09:27lebelliummicrophone gate?
22:10:03pamauryyeah, seems strange since it has no microphone ^^
22:12:08pamaurybut this EU regulation thing may be relevant
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22:14:24lebelliumUnfortunately Sony put a volume cap the user can't change
22:14:38lebelliumwhile with the other brands you only need to change the region code or the firmware
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