#rockbox 2014-01-06

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#rockbox log for 2014-01-06

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02:54:35	[RFC2812]	i'm using 8566cd7-13122 for iPod Classic (26 December nightly) and the image viewer doesn't load 150KB 320x240 bitmaps properly
02:55:04	[RFC2812]	and i have a tangent for this: why are there two possible sizes for bitmaps of these dimensions?
02:55:05	[RFC2812]	150KB and 225KB
02:55:45	[RFC2812]	i've already tried the images in MSPaint and they show normally
02:56:05	[RFC2812]	but on the iPod, these images are incorrectly colour-mapped
03:00
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03:18:02	[RFC2812]	ping
03:18:07	[RFC2812]	:(
03:19:25	JdGordon	the image viewer doesnt handle .bmp anyway does it?
03:19:31	[RFC2812]	yes it does.
03:19:47	[RFC2812]	it handled it well for a while
03:19:52	JdGordon	dunno
03:20:00	[RFC2812]	let me see if the backsplash does the same thign
03:20:20	[RFC2812]	i cant screenshot it because it shows up correctly in mspaint
03:20:24	[RFC2812]	i mean i could screenshot
03:20:28	[RFC2812]	let me try this
03:21:01	[RFC2812]	crap .rock files dont run in the sim for some reason
03:21:05	[RFC2812]	nothing runs in the sim
03:21:13	[RFC2812]	except the image itself
03:22:11	[RFC2812]	yeah the backdrop does the same
03:23:23	JdGordon	how did you create the bmp?
03:23:33	[RFC2812]	screendump
03:23:48	JdGordon	on the device?
03:23:52	[RFC2812]	yes
03:23:57	JdGordon	and it cant view it?
03:24:04	[RFC2812]	it views it incorrectly
03:24:06	JdGordon	can your pc view it?
03:24:10	[RFC2812]	yes.
03:24:16	JdGordon	incorectly how?
03:24:17	[RFC2812]	01 56 21: <[RFC2812]> i've already tried the images in MSPaint and they show normally
03:24:17	[RFC2812]	01 56 41: <[RFC2812]> but on the iPod, these images are incorrectly colour-mapped
03:24:23	[RFC2812]	read above
03:24:43	JdGordon	cool, sounds like a bug in screendump
03:24:50	[RFC2812]	but what i'm getting at
03:25:03	[RFC2812]	why are there 2 different filesizes for bitmaps in the first place
03:25:10	[RFC2812]	bitmaps are uncompressed
03:32:53		Quit scorche (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:35:10	[RFC2812]	wait
03:35:21	[RFC2812]	let me do some analysis on these images
03:35:26	[RFC2812]	Rockbox does 24 bit right?
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03:35:29	[RFC2812]	depth
03:35:30	[RFC2812]	eyah
03:36:02	[RFC2812]	yeah the screendump iis probably saving as 16 bit
03:36:06	[RFC2812]	let me confirm
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03:36:48	[RFC2812]	yep
03:36:51	[RFC2812]	gonna file a bug
03:38:13	[RFC2812]	oh yes
03:38:27	[RFC2812]	rockbox is hellbent on using real names
03:38:34	[RFC2812]	i'll pass
03:44:14	*	man_in_shack passes [RFC2812]
03:44:15	[RFC2812]	hi?
03:44:30	*	man_in_shack hides
03:44:34	[RFC2812]	you don't like RFCs?
03:44:39	man_in_shack	(:
03:46:27	man_in_shack	i prefer RFC1149
03:46:59	[RFC2812]	oh that
03:47:00	[RFC2812]	nice
03:47:11	[RFC2812]	well played
03:51:33	[RFC2812]	but yeah
03:52:07	[RFC2812]	this is to anyone in here: Rockbox (at least for iPod Classic) image viewer can't handle 16 bit bitmaps
03:52:17	[RFC2812]	if anyone cares to report it who already is registered with the tracker
03:52:29	[RFC2812]	also i could complain about theimage viewer some more...
03:52:38	man_in_shack	16bit bmps are fun
03:52:44	[RFC2812]	it's pretty good but a lot of jpeg shit
03:52:58	[RFC2812]	can't view interlaced jpegs i believe
03:53:19	[RFC2812]	anyway i made a 24b bitmap in gimp for my backsplash :3
03:53:37	man_in_shack	cool
03:53:44	man_in_shack	pngs are more awesome though :P
03:53:58	[RFC2812]	man_in_shack okay
03:54:01	[RFC2812]	we know
03:54:07	[RFC2812]	but that's not the scope of my rant
03:54:15	man_in_shack	rants are fun
03:54:21	*	[RFC2812] slaps man_in_shack around a bit with a large trout.
03:54:31	*	man_in_shack smokes the trout and eats it
03:54:38	[RFC2812]	that trout is rotten
03:54:41	[RFC2812]	enjoy your death
03:54:48	[RFC2812]	i'll be laughing at your funeral
03:54:50	[RFC2812]	anyway i will depart
03:54:51		Part [RFC2812] ("<3")
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11:42:26	bluebrother	B4gder, Zagor: can you please move Rockbox Utility 1.4.0 to the download server? http://www.alice-dsl.net/dominik.riebeling/rockbox/rbutil-releases/1.4.0/
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13:04:50	JdGordon	PurlingNayuki: hey, did you get time to update the patch?
13:06:00	PurlingNayuki	Sorry I tried but the code wasn't working well.
13:06:27	PurlingNayuki	I need helps, should I just upload my current codes?
13:08:24	JdGordon	yeah
13:08:45	PurlingNayuki	Wait a second
13:08:45	JdGordon	sounds like im not allowed to play tonight though, i'll try to look tomorow
13:12:23	PurlingNayuki	OK thanks in advance
13:13:39	PurlingNayuki	I just pushed my codes. I guess I'm not that familiar with Rockbox as I thought.
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13:20:06	JdGordon	PurlingNayuki: that latest one builds at all?
13:20:52	PurlingNayuki	Builds but won't working as was expected.
13:21:57	JdGordon	sound_get_fn(SOUND_VOLUME_LIMIT) != NULL right?
13:22:11	JdGordon	(also you've got tabs in a few of the files again)
13:22:19	JdGordon	gerrit shows the tabs as red >>'s
13:23:03	JdGordon	I don't tihnk you need the setvol you've added in the first change in option_select.c
13:23:04	PurlingNayuki	It shouldn't be me. I checked them before commiting:-(
13:23:50	PurlingNayuki	Yes it's a NULL. Is it the problem?
13:24:00	JdGordon	very probably
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13:24:21	JdGordon	well, maybe
13:24:29	JdGordon	I dunno what problems you're seeing :)
13:25:20	PurlingNayuki	But volume limit function in firmware/ is adunda
13:25:21	JdGordon	it might be better to remove that part and add a menu callback in sound_menu.c for the volume_limit menu item
13:25:28	PurlingNayuki	*redundant
13:25:29	JdGordon	adunda?
13:25:30	JdGordon	:)
13:25:56	PurlingNayuki	sorry i was misunderstanding.
13:25:56	*	JdGordon looks for an example
13:26:12	PurlingNayuki	I can handle that
13:26:26	PurlingNayuki	even without an example
13:26:33	JdGordon	have a look at timestretch_callback()
13:26:34	PurlingNayuki	don't worry.
13:26:39	JdGordon	very easy to add
13:26:56	PurlingNayuki	Well OK I'll try.
13:27:49	JdGordon	also the chinese.lang diff is wrong
13:27:56	JdGordon	the </phrase> is in the wrong place
13:28:22	PurlingNayuki	Yes i was in a hurry yesterday.
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13:29:12	PurlingNayuki	Fortunately we have enough time to review and fix them before merging, thanks to gerrit
13:33:17	*	PurlingNayuki is fixing codes.
13:33:59	*	JdGordon heads off to bed
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13:37:35	PurlingNayuki	:P Good night
13:45:30	PurlingNayuki	JdGordon: What should I do in volume_limit_callback()?
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13:55:44	PurlingNayuki	JdGordon: Leave it doing nothing and it just works.
13:55:50	PurlingNayuki	:-P
13:55:57	PurlingNayuki	Great.
13:56:12	PurlingNayuki	Heads to small bugs and format fix.
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17:53:18	chrisjj	Does http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WebSearch word for anyone here?
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17:56:15	[Saint]	It hasn't worked properly for years.
17:56:26	[Saint]	use the search bar.
18:00
18:01:16		Quit ikeboy (Write error: Broken pipe)
18:05:59	chrisjj	"It hasn't worked properly for years." I guess it will take only a few more years before someone files a bug report :) Thanks.
18:08:25	[Saint]	why do you assume it isn't known?
18:09:12	[Saint]	Its been broken for over a decade.
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18:10:27	[Saint]	It worked for a brief period after I noticed it was messed up and reverted a formatting error, then it fell over again.
18:10:37	pixelma	guess you are exaggerating a bit
18:11:01	[Saint]	Scarily, not by much.
18:11:49		Quit Cultist (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:12:40	[Saint]	actually...i was off a few years.
18:12:58	[Saint]	its been broken since 2001ish.
18:14:50	scorche\|sh	um, no - that cant be right
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18:15:56	[Saint]	well...its before my time, of course, but the same formatting error existed for about 10 years if he history is correct.
18:15:56	scorche\|sh	there was no wiki there in 2001
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18:16:34	[Saint]	there's history from 1999 there...
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18:16:51	scorche\|sh	huh?
18:16:54	[Saint]	guess its good and broke.
18:17:18	scorche\|sh	rockbox came about Dec 2001
18:17:22	[Saint]	the page edits list history from 1991
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18:17:34	scorche\|sh	back then it wasnt even known as rockbox
18:17:42	[Saint]	so, yep, guess its real fucked.
18:18:02	[Saint]	it worked briefly a while back.
18:18:19	scorche\|sh	rockbox.org didnt come about until 2004
18:18:47	scorche\|sh	it worked for a number of years after that - never was anywhere near as good as Google, but if you knew what you were looking for, it would find it quickly
18:19:00	[Saint]	I wonder what triggered this madness.
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18:19:08	scorche\|sh	i would guess it hasnt worked for4-7 years
18:19:18	scorche\|sh	maybe
18:19:42	[Saint]	it was working a bit after i fixed it up visually.
18:19:55	[Saint]	that was a while ago now.
18:20:21	[Saint]	the page formatting was whack.
18:24:13	pixelma	maybe not since moving to foswiki (was twiki first IIRC)
18:24:58	scorche\|sh	yeah - that was what i was thinking after "maybe"
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19:52:21	chrisjj	"why do you assume it isn't known?" I didn't. But I do assume there's no bug report... because I can't find one.
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19:58:49	scorche\|sh	yeah - honestly, i dont think it is all that big of a deal to ask us about it
19:59:01	scorche\|sh	ignore [Saint] on that one =)
20:00
20:02:45	[Saint]	What?
20:03:01	[Saint]	I wasn't implying anyone cared...don't get me wrong. :)
20:06:54	chrisjj	Saint, do you really think no-one cares?
20:07:11	[Saint]	Its fairly evident.
20:07:54	[Saint]	You, and me, are the only two to mention it in many many years - I'd say that counts as no one in the greater scheme of things.
20:08:32	[Saint]	It would be an issue if there wasn't a fully functional search implementation inches away, but, there is.
20:08:37	chrisjj	It is fairly evidence you don't care. I see nothing to suggest others don't. When a new user arrives at the wiki and uses the search, I think he does care about the result. Else he wouldn't bother.
20:09:41	[Saint]	Maybe it is extrapolating to far, but the lack of complaints and the lack of motivation to fix it suggests others, like me, don;t really care about it too much.
20:09:55	[Saint]	As I said, there's a fully functional search implentation inches away.
20:10:19	[Saint]	It would be an issue if there wasn;t, but, there is.
20:11:34	chrisjj	Yes, I'm sure others like you don't care about it. But that doesn't mean no-one does. You cared enough in 2010 to attempt to fix it - perhaps there's someone like that here now.
20:12:10	scorche\|sh	we dont really care, but i am just saying that you jumped the gun a bit on the "assume it isnt known"
20:12:22	scorche\|sh	(to [Saint] )
20:12:28	[Saint]	Well, if that someone isn't you, or me, I don't think the discussion matters very much.
20:12:45	[Saint]	scorche\|sh: well...it definitely _should_ be known.
20:12:58	scorche\|sh	sure, but chrisjj shouldnt be expected to know that it is known
20:13:02	[Saint]	I know I reported it to yourself and other bigwigs an age ago. :)
20:13:26	scorche\|sh	i wouldnt say i am a bigwig, but...
20:13:35	chrisjj	"there's a fully functional search implentation inches away." I assume you're kidding. Else it would be OK for every wiki search on the web to be broken too.
20:13:50	scorche\|sh	well, there is
20:14:00	[Saint]	its like literally right there.
20:14:04	scorche\|sh	it isnt worth fixing really, as google search works just fine
20:14:04	[Saint]	in ever wiki page.
20:14:07	[Saint]	*every
20:14:10	scorche\|sh	we even embedded it on the sidebar
20:14:15	[Saint]	indeed.
20:14:25	[Saint]	We should probably just remove the page in question.
20:15:22	chrisjj	Saint, you miss the point. The wiki search gives a false result to the user and does not give your advice to stop using the feature and use Google instead.
20:15:34	chrisjj	Yes, removing would be better than leaving it present broken.
20:16:00	[Saint]	I assure you I'm not missing the point. I'm just not terribly bothered by it.
20:16:16	[Saint]	As long as there's a search that works, I'm cool.
20:16:41	scorche\|sh	chrisjj: it isnt that big of a problem, really - a number of folk dont even get that far and just use the search field on every single page as that is easier
20:16:51	scorche\|sh	or they come in here and we direct them to that just as we are doing now
20:16:59	[Saint]	^this
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20:28:35	chrisjj	scorche\|sh, please consider those people who don't come in here.
20:28:50	scorche\|sh	chrisjj: as i said before, we did
20:29:07	scorche\|sh	if you cnat see the search field that is on every single page, that is your own fault
20:32:53	chrisjj	scorche\|sh, "as i said before, we did". I've seen no such consideration. Where did I miss it?
20:33:16	scorche\|sh	talking about the search field
20:33:19	scorche\|sh	on every page
20:33:37	chrisjj	"if you cnat see the search field that is on every single page, that is your own fault" I can see it. It lacks many of the features of the search page.
20:33:49	gevaerts	It does?
20:33:59	gevaerts	What can the search page do that it can't?
20:34:20	gevaerts	(note: the search page doesn't work...)
20:35:18	chrisjj	scorche\|sh, to save you the bother of helping those users who come here :) I added a warning note on the broken WebSearch page.
20:39:45	[Saint]	It doesn't save the bother of users coming in here about that specifically, because it doesn't happen.
20:39:47	[Saint]	Unless you mean you, and I doubt you'll be making the mistake in future.
20:39:59	[Saint]	But, thanks anyway. Thought that counts, and all that.
20:43:19	scorche\|sh	chrisjj: that isnt a bother, yeah
20:49:28	chrisjj	[Saint]: You're welcome.
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20:52:12	baranko	Hi. Guys, someone know is roadmap in flyspray shows any real situation with new release coming?
20:53:35	gevaerts	baranko: I don't think we've used that flyspray roadmap feature for years
20:53:46	[Saint]	flyspray is less and less relevant by the day.
20:53:57	baranko	Ohh
20:54:11	[Saint]	We try to use gerrit for all patch submissions now.
20:54:23	gevaerts	[Saint]: there are bug reports :)
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20:54:45	[Saint]	Errr, ah, yes. Good point.
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20:56:36	baranko	Well, i read in maillist archive that there is some refactoring ot something coming for getting core of system as i understand. Does this mean that until that wi get no new stable release like 3.13?
20:58:15	[Saint]	A release is literally just around the corner.
20:58:21	[Saint]	Its actually a bit late.
20:58:49	gevaerts	Well...
20:59:11	gevaerts	Given that ipod video didn't boot two days ago and nobody had noticed for ten days, I'm not too confident
20:59:20	[Saint]	We should really be in freeze now, at least.
20:59:57	baranko	Gevaerts as i understand there is no big test community?
21:00
21:00:15	gevaerts	Not really. People seem to like running stable releases :)
21:00:48	baranko	Yes, i am one of such people.)
21:01:07	[Saint]	Which is somewhat ironic. As in general git head is goint to include more bugfixes.
21:01:17	[Saint]	(but, potentially other newer, exciting bugs. :P)
21:01:44	chrisjj	I was wondering the same. Is there no coordinated QA for a new release? To ensure that ports declared stable are still stable?
21:02:06	[Saint]	There is. I just don;t think you've been around long enough.
21:02:14	bertrik	I think we do have a release manager
21:02:22	[Saint]	Typically we freeze for two weeks and focus exclusively on bugfixes.
21:02:27	chrisjj	"There is". Great. Where's the documentation?
21:02:33	baranko	Oh, on one of our forums, i found that peoples feel difference with different builds of rockbox. Is it realy can be? Or this is just imagination?
21:03:04	bertrik	What documentation?
21:03:09	[Saint]	baranko: Oh, of course. Generally speaking, Rockbox is in a semi-constant state of improvement.
21:03:32		Quit yosafbridge (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:03:57	baranko	Really? But i suppose rockbox use hardware decoder in players and sound must be the same.
21:04:28	gevaerts	No. Hardware decoding has been gone for more than a decade
21:04:36	chrisjj	"I think we do have a release manager". Good news. But I've seen no mention of such a person in the three years I've been here. What's his name?
21:04:51	[Saint]	Three years?
21:04:53	[Saint]	WHat the...
21:05:05	[Saint]	As far as I knew, you popped up about 6 months ago.
21:05:23	[Saint]	Shows the attention I pay, heh.
21:05:49	chrisjj	"As far as I knew" Aha.
21:05:54	chrisjj	:)
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21:06:07	[Saint]	AlexP is the release manager for this round (and the last few) I believe.
21:06:22	[Saint]	But he's been rather scarce lately.
21:06:30	AlexP	Yes, I've done them for a good while now
21:06:56	[Saint]	Ah. Hello good Sir.
21:06:57	AlexP	And I've never noticed chrisjj before a few months
21:06:58	chrisjj	Thanks. Where's the QA coordinated?
21:07:11	AlexP	If he hasn't noticed releases happening then he hasn't been playing much attention
21:07:11	AlexP	Here
21:07:14	AlexP	wait,
21:07:17	AlexP	I misread
21:07:21	AlexP	QA?
21:07:22	AlexP	Ha
21:07:35	AlexP	We have a freeze
21:07:38	AlexP	Then branch
21:07:42	AlexP	With sometimes an RC
21:07:46	AlexP	Which nobody uses
21:07:49	AlexP	Then we release
21:07:54	[Saint]	its "we freeze for ~2 weeks, and focus on fixing outstanding issues", then maybe an RC, then release.
21:08:02	AlexP	You will have noticed all this on the mailing list of course
21:08:02	[Saint]	..then maybe a point release if necessary.
21:08:07	AlexP	yep
21:08:22	bertrik	and get translations more up-to-date usually before a release
21:08:22	AlexP	And hello to you too [Saint] :)
21:08:24	AlexP	yes
21:08:59	chrisjj	Hi Alex. Is there a coordinated effort to verify ports declared stable are still stable?
21:09:25	chrisjj	In particular, is there a checklist of verified ports?
21:09:32	AlexP	You need to use the actual nick for highlighting to work
21:10:18	AlexP	The ones declared stable
21:10:27	AlexP	And no, we do an RC and rely on people to tell us
21:10:29	AlexP	We have too many targets
21:10:31	AlexP	But seeing as nobody uses the RC
21:10:31	baranko	I don't think lots of usual users read any of it. May be there is some thense to announce this to community and ask for more test. Really automated install with installer was great and easy. It was my first touch of this great project.
21:10:35	AlexP	We do announce it
21:10:36	[Saint]	We ask for RC tests, and no one does.
21:10:37	AlexP	There is a message in the forums and on the dev and user mailing lists
21:10:51	[Saint]	Its literally a miracle if there's RC testing in any decent numbers.
21:11:28	baranko	"Forums' - it's project forum or some fan forums?
21:11:31	[Saint]	I'm really not sure what else we could do to get the users more involved.
21:11:37	AlexP	baranko: forums.rockbox.org
21:11:49	AlexP	or forum
21:11:50	[Saint]	(project forum)
21:11:52	AlexP	I forget
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21:12:45	AlexP	We are well overdue for a release but a) we seem to get less stable all the time and b) I don't use Rockbox that much anymore so unless I really get kicked I haven't got round to it
21:14:30	[Saint]	We definitely would want to push RC candidates for this round.
21:14:40	[Saint]	But, only like 3 people will use them.
21:14:55	AlexP	We'll do them anyway
21:14:57	chrisjj	AlexP: "There is a message in the forums" Thanks. Note: I see no such message for the RC of the current release - 3.13.
21:14:58	AlexP	You never know :)
21:15:10	[Saint]	And only 1 will give any feedback, just to say "super cool, awesome guys - thanks!" :P
21:16:00	AlexP	I have a feeling that they didn't get made available for 3.13 as there wasn't a Swede around
21:16:11	AlexP	And by the time there was we were moving on
21:16:17	AlexP	But I may well be misremembering
21:16:29	AlexP	I probably just didn't overlap with one
21:16:42	chrisjj	"Moving on". Well, it does depend on the target cirterion.
21:17:36	AlexP	"it does"
21:17:46	chrisjj	Your target criterion for release could be: a) when all stables are verified, or; b) when X weeks have passed regardless.
21:18:00	AlexP	Note: I don't know what you mean with random quotes. Be specific with your meaning
21:18:11	chrisjj	If it is b), then no surprise "we seem to get less stable all the time" :)
21:18:22	AlexP	It isn't
21:18:41	AlexP	But if nobody replies we have no choice
21:19:38	baranko	As for feedback, first of all, if everything works almost nobody come and say: everysing cool. Just like on isp forums. As for me, i can get another one player for test builds, but i prefer some instruction, like "guys need to check this and this and this. Any other on your needs.". So any algorythms of testing?
21:19:49	chrisjj	AlexP: "It isn't" Good to hear. But then what is it? I see no indication on the RC message e.g. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,35755.0.html
21:20:19	AlexP	What?
21:20:40	chrisjj	What is the target criterion for release? If not a) or b) above.
21:20:59	AlexP	You misinterpret my "It isn't"
21:21:06	AlexP	Ignore that
21:21:09	chrisjj	Then please clarify.
21:21:19	chrisjj	OK, ignoring :)
21:21:21	AlexP	I can only type so fast....
21:21:26	chrisjj	Sorry :)
21:22:18	AlexP	There is a time limit, which is generally a week or so, as outlined in the release schedules and on the public google calendar. If something gets reported in that time that takes longer to fix then it'll be delayed
21:22:29	AlexP	Nobody really likes doing releases tbh
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21:25:15	chrisjj	"Nobody really likes doing releases tbh" That's not my experience, but perhaps it is true that no current RB really likes doing releases :)
21:25:31	AlexP	Nobody involved really likes doing them
21:25:36	AlexP	I'm sure users like them
21:25:52	AlexP	It takes ages for a start and we all have real lives
21:26:34	chrisjj	You know, porting takes ages, and real lives don't stop that :)
21:26:35	n1s	chrisjj: just a "it starts and plays music" test for targets you have would be great and even better would be testing things that rely on specific hardware like fm radio and recording. The more things tested, the better but we can't realistically expect to try everything on every device every release
21:26:55	AlexP	chrisjj: That's because people find it interesting
21:27:01	AlexP	Releases aren't
21:27:07	AlexP	Nor is bug fixing by and large
21:27:10	chrisjj	AlexP: where do those release schedules live?
21:27:19	AlexP	On the dev mailing list
21:27:33	n1s	bug fixing is more fun than releasing :)
21:27:36	AlexP	and there is a google calendar, link should be in those emails on the mailing list too
21:27:45	AlexP	n1s: And that says it all I think :)
21:27:56	AlexP	More testing for releases would be great of course
21:28:01	AlexP	And there was discussion of this
21:28:11	AlexP	A webpage with things for people to click through etc.
21:28:22	AlexP	But nobody cared enough to actually set it up
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21:29:17	chrisjj	Soory, I should have said: where do those release schedules live for prospective testers - not just devs.
21:29:46	AlexP	I can't remember if they do specifically
21:30:02	chrisjj	OK. I can see why we're short of testers.
21:30:17	AlexP	We ask for testers with the RCs
21:30:25	gevaerts	Why would the schedule be different for testers?
21:30:31	n1s	AlexP: a wikipage with a table of every port included in the release and a field to fill in results in freeform would be pretty easy
21:30:51	AlexP	n1s: Indeed so, but still nobody (me included) did it
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21:31:19	baranko	Maybe some simplyfying neede of that process?
21:31:32	AlexP	Which process?
21:31:52	chrisjj	AlexP: Yes, I see that e.g. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,35755.0.html but there's no mention of a schedule, so a tester can't see whether a week later his testing is any use.
21:31:58	AlexP	I'm not blaiming users here particularly by the way, devs don't test either
21:32:01	baranko	Test for testers of test builds
21:32:15	AlexP	baranko: Having a process would help :)
21:32:25	AlexP	chrisjj: Surely he can
21:32:34	AlexP	If there hasn't been a release it isn't too late
21:32:51	AlexP	If there has been, see if it is still in the release, if so file a bug report
21:33:16	chrisjj	If that's the procedure then great... but I'd not have known it. Often elsewhere it is not.
21:34:18	chrisjj	But even so, I think there are people who are not going to sit down for a weekends testing only to find it misses the boat.
21:34:32	AlexP	It doesn't miss the boat entirely
21:34:49	AlexP	bug reports are still useful and if it is serious there can be a point release
21:34:59	chrisjj	That's why I asked about a schedule. Saying "You have two weeks to test" is much better than leaving it undefined.
21:35:07	AlexP	sure
21:35:18	chrisjj	It doesn't miss the next boat, agreed :)
21:35:35	AlexP	which can be immediate if needs be
21:35:52	AlexP	Lots of the release process could be much better
21:35:56	AlexP	But life is too short
21:36:57	chrisjj	Some would say life is too short to invest time in a project where "we seem to get less stable all the time"...
21:37:12	AlexP	sure, they can say what they'd like
21:37:22	AlexP	But I have a job and a social life, sorry
21:37:38	chrisjj	And a good guard against such bit rot is coordinated release QA.
21:38:28	gevaerts	One big issue we have is people getting demotivated by people standing at the sidelines criticising
21:40:06	chrisjj	AlexP: I'd assume the more valuable the time one gives to a project like this, the more important is making it worthwhile.
21:40:18	AlexP	eh?
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21:40:53	chrisjj	You've given up time to be the release manager, right?
21:41:01	AlexP	sure
21:41:12	AlexP	Partly because nobody else wanted to :)
21:42:30	chrisjj	Well, I can see one thing that might discourage them ^^^
21:43:25	AlexP	You saying that the time spent wasn't worthwhile?
21:44:47	chrisjj	Not at all. I'm saying that time spent guarding against bit rot might make the time already spent more worthwhile.
21:45:08	AlexP	sure
21:45:26	chrisjj	(My ^^^ refers to people who paint improvement suggestions as criticism from sidelines.)
21:45:41	chrisjj	Where's the RB google calendar?
21:45:50	AlexP	improvement suggestions are useless
21:45:57	AlexP	actually doing something is useful
21:45:57	chrisjj	I find only mailing list references to it 4 years ago.
21:46:16	chrisjj	"improvement suggestions are useless". Really?
21:46:20	AlexP	pretty much
21:46:30	AlexP	we all do this as volunteers, in out spare time
21:46:51	gevaerts	chrisjj: in case it wasn't clear, I was referring to people like you who step right out of Dilbert to come and annoy us
21:47:02	chrisjj	"pretty much" Not my experience at all.
21:47:02	AlexP	I don't do anything to be told what to do by people who don't do anything themselves
21:47:14	AlexP	It doesn't make it fun
21:47:19	AlexP	And people only do this for fun
21:47:54	chrisjj	"who don't do anything themselves" Do you count "suggesting improvement" as doing anything?
21:47:59	AlexP	no
21:48:14	AlexP	I know, we all know, that there is much more to be done
21:48:24	AlexP	But time and motivation preclude it
21:48:29	AlexP	The only answer is more time
21:48:36	AlexP	And that needs people to provide it
21:48:39	baranko	Ok, don,t use electricity if you cannot build generator at least.
21:48:57	AlexP	how is that relevent?
21:49:00	chrisjj	If you don't consider improvement suggesters as worthwhile, I wonder what you think testers are :)
21:49:13	AlexP	not the same thing
21:49:21	baranko	Sometimes someone can be cool in idea but bad in realise it no?
21:49:27	AlexP	testers are primarily useful for finding things that don't work
21:49:36	AlexP	not suggesting what they see as improvements
21:49:47	AlexP	which can often by contentious for a start
21:49:54	chrisjj	Fixing bugs is improvement in my book.
21:50:16	AlexP	well if that is what you meant, then fine
21:50:17	gevaerts	chrisjj: are you now saying we need people who tell us that we should fix bugs?
21:52:31	AlexP	chrisjj: I'm going now, but just to finish - what is primarily needed is people to do things, not tell other people what needs to be done
21:52:42	chrisjj	It is what I meant. And as you probably know, reporting bugs around here is also contentious. Esp. where "bug" is defined by reference to what the dev intended, rather than what the user expects.
21:52:58	chrisjj	Nice to meet you and chat Alex. Bye for now.
21:53:17	chrisjj	Can anyone tell me where the Rockbox Google calendar is? Thanks.
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22:16:16	GodEater	chrisjj: rockbox.calendar@gmail.com
22:17:11	GodEater	a bit of googling on the ML archives turned that up.
22:17:19	GodEater	I expect you prefer other people to do that for you too.
22:18:59	Karrde-	heh
22:19:23	AlexP	It seems I haven't mentioned it in a while
22:19:31	AlexP	but e.g. http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2011-03/0120.shtml
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22:22:40	[Saint]	I think what is trying to be said here is that we clearly don't need people to tell us that the project has problems. We know this. What we do need is people prepared to take the initiative and fix these issues that annoy them.
22:23:09	chrisjj	AlexP: Thanks. That shows no events: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8862/9peh.png . Is this as intended?
22:23:24	AlexP	chrisjj: yes, there isn't anything in it for 3.14 yet
22:23:32	AlexP	but if you go back you should see the others
22:23:50	chrisjj	There is nothing in it for 3.13 and earlier....
22:24:16	AlexP	yes there is
22:24:18	AlexP	Feb 2013
22:25:07	chrisjj	Ah, Google was filtering. Found Feb 2013 now - thanks.
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