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#rockbox log for 2014-02-12

00:03:02 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 28.0/20140205162153])
00:03:29*[Saint] frowns.
00:03:40[Saint]How can you get a Stkov for the audio buffer?
00:04:19*[Saint] removes the and buffer from that sentence, as writing it severaltimes failed rather dramatically
00:08:00[Saint]No RaaAoA on my phone is kinda heartbreaking. Google Music is so...meh.
00:08:14 Join fs-bluebot [0] (
00:08:32JdGordon[Saint]: any way to do gdb to it?
00:08:41JdGordonhave you tried in the sim?
00:09:01 Quit rela (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:09:14[Saint]I didn't think an SDL build could accurately represent RaaAoA.
00:09:25[Saint](so, no, I didn't try as yet)
00:09:50JdGordonyou dont know if it is the JNI or warble or what code causing the problem
00:10:16[Saint]I would build RaaAoA myself, but apparently that is impossible these days.
00:10:35[Saint]My fix/kludge to get it building with a modern toolchain no longer works.
00:11:01[Saint]and its impossible to get the older S/NDK from a trusted source (apparently?).
00:11:44[Saint]JdGordon: Well...I know warble works fine, if that's any consolation.
00:11:53[Saint]But I don't think that's really indicative of much.
00:12:48[Saint]For all I know, it may be a problem with rasher's builds...but I can't really check that, as it involves way too much effort on my part to get it building here.
00:13:26[Saint](and if I did get it building again with a modern S/NDK, I couldn;t rule out any problems as being introduced by said workaround)
00:15:27[Saint]And I can't get a map file from rasher's builds...
00:18:16[Saint]I'm left to wonder if it is somehow just my problem, and it affects all my devices, or if no one uses RaaAoA anymore (at least not a modern version thereof).
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00:39:00Strife89[Saint]: I think I still have some builds sitting in my Dropbox; what's your phone's resolution?
00:41:39Strife89Last successful builds were made on Dec. 26.
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01:06:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:37:17[Saint]Crap. Sorry Strife89, didn't see the notification. If you have 480x800 compiled it would run on all the devices I own.
02:37:37[Saint]I'll prod at it when I get home.
02:40:24Strife89[Saint]: Yup, I have it. Here.
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02:41:37[Saint]Excellent. Thanks.
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05:01:25 Nick DormantBrain is now known as SuperBrainAK (~andy@
05:02:19SuperBrainAKhey guys hows your evening/morning?
05:03:32SuperBrainAKi was wondering does the sansa clip zip processor have any spare I/O?
05:04:12[Saint]What is it you're wanting to achieve?
05:05:12JdGordondoes the thing have headphone detection?
05:05:30[Saint]I believe so.
05:05:37SuperBrainAKidk some sort of volume knob like a continuous rotation pot or rotary encoder
05:05:47SuperBrainAKno it doesnt
05:06:06***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:06:08SuperBrainAKi dont know
05:06:15[Saint]It probably does. But we may not make use of it.
05:06:32JdGordonsaratoga on the forums says only insert which is pretty sueless
05:06:44[Saint]Its a very young port still and things like that tend to get neglected.
05:07:28SuperBrainAKwell you wouldnt really need to know if the jack is detected really it doesnt have external speakers to switch to
05:08:32JdGordonpause on unplug....
05:08:42[Saint]You could probably hijack the mic input via the dock.
05:10:25[Saint]But, in general, if you want to play with things like this a DAP isn't really the best candidate.
05:10:49[Saint]Sounds like you want to play with something you can actually sink your teeth into the hardware of.
05:11:16[Saint]One of the bajillion ARM dev boards out there is probably a good start.
05:11:43[Saint](and you could run Rockbox on that, too :))
05:12:16[Saint]Another option, I guess, if its enabled in the port, is HID.
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05:43:05saratogaIIRC the manual says it can detect an insert but not a remove
05:44:00saratogai guess you could probably unsolder some of the buttons or LEDs and use that for IO
05:44:07saratogaa lot of them are just GPIO pins
05:44:23[Saint]COuld you not use the dock?
05:44:37[Saint]As I said earlier, perhaps hijack mic in off the dock?
05:45:23saratogatheres no dock on the zip
05:49:58[Saint]Oh. Crap. Indeed.
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07:06:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:28:11wodzZagor: (log) I get 'remote: warning: unable to access '/root/.config/git/attributes': Permission denied' when git pull. I don't recall seeing this message before
08:32:55wodzpamaury: (log) when building regtools after todays git pull
08:33:02 Quit fragilematter (Quit: Leaving.)
08:43:56wodzpamaury: (log) qeditor is affected also. After fixing std::vector vs std::list I get some undefined references to hwstub stuff and pretty suspicious warning
08:48:14wodzpamaury: (log) my bad, I forgot to build the lib. It would be great if the build system remembers about this and build libhwstub. a instead of throwing error
08:51:02wodzpamaury: (log) hwstub_shell also suffers from std::vector vs std::list. Cumulative patch to fix definitions
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09:36:49copperpamaury (logs):
09:37:33copperI guess I was right to suspect the sd card
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10:05:32kugel[Saint]: works for me (right channel this time)
10:06:36[Saint]Forgive me if I don't repeat my rant in here. :)
10:08:14kugelthere are many problems on android that I cannot reproduce, and unless I get serious help I'm unable to make it any better
10:08:43 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
10:09:21pixelmalike the app hanging after playing a few tracks for me
10:09:48pixelmaunfortunately I haven't found a pattern yet
10:10:41copperpamaury: logs
10:12:15[Saint]pixelma: yeah, thats a fun one.
10:12:48[Saint]force closing several times in a row and then magically working is another good one.
10:13:42[Saint]Boot. Nope! Boot. Nope! Boot. Ok, I'll work now.
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10:16:51pixelmahaving the wrong colours in the notification dropdown (or whatever it's called) on my SE ICS phone is also a nice one I couldn't figure out yet. It's the only app I've seen so far doing this
10:19:31 Quit tchan (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2)
10:20:37pixelmathough not terribly important
10:21:33pamaurycopper: thanks, I need to go, I'll be back this afternoon to study this file
10:22:41[Saint]If I had the same issues with Rockbox on a DAP, it would be a lot easier to gather the motivation to do something about it.
10:23:22[Saint]But its difficult to think the same way about Android with so many functional alternatives.
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11:06:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:08:07kugel[Saint]: the skin engine is not the problem
11:08:19[Saint]Its certainly *a* problem.
11:08:24kugelwe could have disabled it for the time being
11:08:43[Saint]That was the very first step in the whole "maybe we're not thinking about this right" phase of RaaAoA.
11:08:50kugelour entire architecture is a bad fit for android
11:09:06[Saint]You won;t see me arguing there.
11:11:45kugelbut perhaps you don't realize how bad the fit is :)
11:12:40[Saint]No, I do. Which is one of the reasons I'm surprised it progressed so far, and lasted as long as it did.
11:13:00*[Saint] notes he's using past tense and tries not to
11:14:05[Saint]It really is a credit to you, and all the others involved that it is as functional as it is.
11:14:56[Saint]I'm not trying to discredit the work, not at all.
11:16:09[Saint]But looking back, its easy (now) to say "What was who thinking when we thought this could work?"
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12:56:10pamaurywodz (logs): yeah you're right, I forgot to fix some programs, the warning is normal, it's just because I compare the current version of hwstub to the reported one and since it's currently 0 the "<" chek is always false
13:06:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:14:15fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision c35e4a4, 250 builds, 33 clients.
13:15:06pamaurywodz (logs): compilation should be fixed now, the undefine references in qeditor seem weird though, the qmake adds the hwstub library to the linker
13:17:17fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 183 seconds.
13:17:29pamaurycopper: I will need to send you a new build, I would not have expected the code to fail at this point and I need more debug information
13:17:46copperthat's ok
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13:41:49coppergot it
13:49:47copperpamaury: not sure that's going to help much:
13:52:16pamauryok interesting, apparently a transfer fails and the card stops responding
13:52:30*[Saint] wonders what's up with that link that hover-preview fails on it
13:52:51[Saint]all your links screw up hover-preview for me, actually. Hmmm.
13:52:54pamaurycopper: I will need more debug :)
13:59:33copper[Saint]: using
14:00:33[Saint]Using....whatever quassel uses to do hover-preview, which seems to work for everything else but your links.
14:01:04[Saint](vastly offtopic, just something I noticed since you brutishly forced me into clicking a link :P)
14:03:16 Join wodz [0] (
14:04:10copper[Saint]: can't see why, I'm not doing anything special in that .txt link
14:15:34copperpamaury: trying to run into the bug, no luck yet
14:23:43copperah, finally
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15:06:15pamaurycopper: so the problem is that the card times out and does not answer anymore
15:06:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:06:26pamaurythis looks like a bug of the card to me
15:07:07copperit's brand new
15:07:20copperand a replacement for my other fucked up card
15:07:41copperand I checked, SanDisk didn't send me back the same card
15:07:45copperdifferent serials
15:08:11copperpamaury: if it's the card, I should run into the bug with a Clip+ too, right?
15:08:45pamaurynot necessarily, the drivers are slightly different, it could be a timing issue
15:09:38copperok, first I'm going to try a build from when kugel fixed the theme bugs
15:13:00pamaurywhat is puzzling is why 64GB cards seems to more prone to this issue
15:14:19copperthey do?
15:14:41pamaurymetaphys bricked a 64GB card recently on the fuze+
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15:15:33copperI guess that's what happened to my previous card too
15:16:07pamaurybut bricked card is a firmware bug, except by frying it you cannot brick a card with software commands
15:16:28copperwell I've had many USB flash drive controllers get bricked, too
15:17:01copperthose things seem flaky as shit
15:17:48pamaurythis issue though looks different, it may be a problem with the driver but what ?!
15:18:07copperI'm trying to run into the bug with the kugel build right now
15:18:28pamaurywhat is the kugel build ?
15:19:39coppershort hand for "a build from when kugel fixed the theme bugs"
15:19:48copper193911a to be precise
15:20:05copperbecause I don't remember having that problem back then, but it could just be a coincidence
15:20:35copperif I can't manage to run into the bug with that build, then maybe there's something on the Rockbox side
15:21:37copperok, nope
15:21:42copperjust ran into the bug
15:22:14copperok let's try the Clip+ now
15:23:26 Quit fragilematter (Quit: Leaving.)
15:24:08*[Saint] doesn't understand the concept of software "bricking" sdcards.
15:24:22[Saint]Surely its a firmware issue if it is possible for this to happen.
15:24:31[Saint]...or an overvoltage, or something.
15:25:06[Saint]The latter can definitely do it, I know that, be we should certainly be safe there.
15:25:39[Saint]In my mind, for this to happen in some way, even if it is triggered by a driver fault, the card has to be defective in some way.
15:26:08[Saint]If it wasn't, surely the worst that could happen is a trashed filesystem?
15:27:08pamaurymaybe you could brick it by sending some vendor specific commands that do nasty undocumented stuff
15:27:24[Saint]Hmmm. Right.
15:27:36pamaurybut since the SD bus is CRC'd, that's very unlikely
15:27:41copperI'm sick of those flimsy flash devices
15:28:04[Saint]The flash is likely fine.
15:28:10[Saint]This seems like afirmware issue.
15:28:16[Saint]*a firmware
15:28:29copperI'm talking about the devices as a whole
15:28:39[Saint]AH. Sorry. Too literal.
15:29:17copperI've never stopped having problems with those, ever since I bought my first USB flash drive in, what, 2000 or something?
15:30:06pamauryit's because the problem is far from trivial
15:30:34pamaurythe illusion that you can use a NAND flash as a block device is fundamentally flawed from the start
15:31:29pamaurythat's why flash file systems exist
15:32:10[Saint]Yeah, this ^
15:32:16pamauryon big devices like SSD you can probably compensate by adding some RAM which makes it easier for the firmware but on microSD stuff everything has to be horribly small
15:33:29coppergod, that toy is so damn small (the Clip+)
15:35:13pamauryany news about the clip sport ?
15:36:20[Saint]I'm slightly suspicious (and possibly hopeful) of it being a recycled model in a different case.
15:36:37[Saint](with some firmware additions to make it seem justifiable)
15:37:48ZincAlloyyou've seen the pics, right?
15:38:07pamauryyeah but the inside ?
15:38:22ZincAlloyI guess someone here has to buy one ^^
15:38:28pamauryhas nobody tried to reach a recovery mode for example ?
15:38:54[Saint]No one I know of has one.
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15:46:27ZincAlloyI think it's rather save to assume that they upgraded the hardware for better battery life.
15:50:24copperClip+ refuses to crap out
15:50:42PurlingNayuki_Anyone else notices the warning from lib/unwarminder/backtrace.c?
15:51:14 Nick PurlingNayuki_ is now known as PurlingNayuki (uid20107@gateway/web/
15:51:54PurlingNayukilib/unwarminder/backtrace.c:111:15: warning: variable 'r' set but not used [-Wunused-but-set-variable]
15:51:54PurlingNayuki UnwResult r;
15:52:22PurlingNayukiBut I checked that file and see variable r is used lines below definition
15:52:56gevaertsPurlingNayuki: it's not used
15:53:04gevaertsIt's set, but nothing reads it
15:53:17gevaertsWhich compiler are you using?
15:53:31PurlingNayukir = UnwindStart(pcAddr, spAddr, &cliCallbacks, (void *)line);
15:53:35PurlingNayukiIsn't this use r?
15:53:51gevaertsThat's the "set" part of "set but not used"
15:54:26PurlingNayukiI'm using arm-linux-androideabi-gcc 4.8 from Android NDK
15:54:45gevaertsRight. That's the sort of thing that's not unexpected with newer compilers
15:55:37pamaurynote that the build you produce could be faulty because of using an unsupported compilers
15:56:12n1sPurlingNayuki: if it wan't set at all you'd get a "defined but not used" warning
15:56:21gevaertspamaury: did we ever actually specify an ndk version to use?
15:56:38*[Saint] assumes this isn;t for Android
15:56:39PurlingNayukiDespite of the warning it does work on real Android targets.
15:57:22pamauryah yeah for android I guess it's fine
15:57:54PurlingNayukiThat's a library for arm, but not for arm that runs Android right?
15:58:58pamauryI think the unwinder is compiled on Android too
15:59:24PurlingNayukiAnd there's also another warning in apps/menus/main_menu.c, line 251
15:59:36pamaurybut I don't have rockboxed android device so I don't know if it's actually used
16:00:17*[Saint] is curious, if this is indeed for Android, what S/NDK version is being used, and what trickery was needed to compile Rockbox for Android thereon.
16:00:39[Saint]The tools we rely on haven't been present for several revisions.
16:02:06[Saint]I managed to get it to compile a few revisions ago, but my kludge for that stopped working a while back.
16:02:54[Saint]PurlingNayuki: ^
16:10:02PurlingNayuki[Saint]: Are you talking about apkbuilder?
16:10:25[Saint]among others.
16:11:00PurlingNayukiAs a simple solution, I added it back to my modified source but we should really use aapt.
16:11:05[Saint]replacing apkbuilder alone doesn't get the job done.
16:11:28[Saint]It /may/ work, if you updated the S/NDK in place from prior revisions, and they are left over.
16:11:47[Saint]From a clean installation, I have had exactly zero success.
16:12:29PurlingNayukiI can't remember what I did but anyway I got this compiled.
16:13:01PurlingNayukiBump the SDK version in android.make may help.
16:13:29[Saint]I suspect that the tools apkbuilder itself calls were left over in your SDK installation.
16:13:37[Saint]I can't think of another way it would work.
16:14:11PurlingNayukiI've said that I added it back to my source.
16:15:14PurlingNayukiI should write to use aapt but I'm a lazy guy.
16:16:23[Saint]I know you added apkbuilder back, but that itself relies on tools that either moved and/or are no longer present.
16:16:50[Saint]So at the least I would expect some linking magic. It would be nice to know, that's all.
16:17:29PurlingNayukiAnd thanks to your notice I remember I set links for those missing files.
16:18:34[Saint]Aha. Right.
16:18:49PurlingNayukiThat should be enough for a instant fix.
16:19:17PurlingNayukiAnyway we should turn to aapt right?
16:19:50[Saint]I sincerely doubt anyone would prevent you from doing so.
16:20:42PurlingNayukiThat's it.;-)
16:20:44[Saint]I'll have another go at setting this up again, I couldn't get it to work even following my own directions last time. :)
16:22:04PurlingNayukiI will try this maybe in one week ir two
16:22:05[Saint]A small part of me doesn't want to get it working. As then I'll want to start fixing things that annoy me, and I'll get all depressed about doing what I feel is heading in the wrong direction.
16:22:13 Quit n1s (Quit: Ex-Chat)
16:23:01[Saint]I used to believe very strongly that RaaA on Android had a future. Not so much anymore.
16:23:54[Saint]I love it to bits for its features, but the approach is wrong in so many ways. Well beyond my technical ability to fix.
16:24:08ZincAlloybecaue nobody has an mp3 player anymore. everbody needs to have the latest, greatest device? :D
16:24:31[Saint]Because bringing our UI with us was a terrible idea.
16:25:01ZincAlloyyeah. I can hardly imagine how that would work well
16:25:07[Saint](note: the views of [Saint] are not wholly representative of the Rockbox project :))
16:25:25PurlingNayukiA one for iPhone may have an equal future, if there is :D
16:26:14[Saint]Is that a cryptic way of saying "no future"? :)
16:26:53[Saint]I don't quite believe that. As a playback library, I believe Rockbox has a future on many devices and platforms.
16:27:07[Saint]well, I would like to.
16:28:56[Saint]Its depressing being passionate about something when you don't have the technical ability nor the time to correct the flaws you see.
16:28:58PurlingNayukiActually I released several versions of RaaA and the strongest voice from thousands of users is, it's wonderful, excluding its UI
16:30:00[Saint]I agree completely.
16:30:31[Saint]Which is why I see Rockbox as having a future on Android as a playback library open for other applications to use.
16:31:09PurlingNayukiI have taken measures to solve that, temporarily.
16:31:32PurlingNayukiThat's pre-packed themes.
16:31:37[Saint]In the past, I believed very strongly that we could overcome the issues with the UI. But rotation and resolution agnostic UIs proved to be all but impossible.
16:31:55[Saint]A binary per resolution would never fly in the wild.
16:32:59[Saint](were it to ever be a "product")
16:33:04PurlingNayukiI agree this.
16:33:44PurlingNayukiI have a simple solution to resolution too.
16:34:11PurlingNayukiit's far from perfect but at least usable.
16:35:02[Saint]The only way I know of is making sure the theme is the same size or smaller than target resolution.
16:35:57[Saint]But then it gets pinned to 0,0 and you get a black border to the side and bottom.
16:36:18PurlingNayukiSimply zoom the outputs to the resolution as the devices'
16:37:32[Saint]Ah, cute.
16:38:52[Saint]Now, in later versions of Android, we hae other fun things to worry about.
16:39:06PurlingNayukiAnd we have got this working
16:39:10[Saint]Like dynamic navigation soft keys and status bar.
16:39:35[Saint]*we have
16:39:50PurlingNayukiOops, another we
16:40:35[Saint]Errrr, sorry. I was correcting myself.
16:42:15PurlingNayukiThe best is to adapt to Android NATIVE UI using jni at present
16:46:18PurlingNayukiAnd we can drop theme support for the very first versions
16:48:40PurlingNayukiYeah I know that's one of the main features but most users want a usable one, not a fully-customizable one.
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16:52:36ZagorI recall suggesting percent positioning quite a long time ago... :-)
16:53:08Zagorof course, talking is easy
16:53:51ZincAlloyscaleable graphics would be useful for this
16:55:57[Saint]Zagor: i recall you doing more than suggesting it.
16:56:22Zagoryeah, right. I did some work too. never finished though.
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16:57:18[Saint]I seem to recall you trying and then some form of "crap, this is harder than it should be".
16:57:50[Saint]And then lots of discussion around native ui.
16:58:47ZagorI don't remember exactly. but I knew it was never going to be a perfect solution, so I can imagine that put a damper on my enthusiasm for spending long hours fixing it.
16:59:38Zagora rockbox lib and native UI is basically the only sane way
17:00:17[Saint]I regret not seeing that earlier on SOOO much.
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17:01:43[Saint]I feel partly responsible for it. I was adamant that the skin engine could be made to work around the areas we fell down in.
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17:02:57[Saint]What a fool hindsight can make one seem. :-/
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17:45:17wodzpamaury: with your fixes commited I get this:
17:48:13pamaurywodz: did you compile the hwstub library in utils/hwstub/lib ?
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18:30:42saratogai see that the new clip model is somewhat available in various stores around the US, has anyone gotten a hold of one and opened it yet?
18:31:19saratogai'm betting on it being imx233 fwiw
18:31:38ZincAlloyI bet you'd win that bet
18:32:26saratogawith any luck we can delay pamaury's phd even more
18:39:22ZincAlloyas you guys are using the imx far more efficiently than sandisk you might get an incredible battery life out of the clip sport..
18:40:13[Saint]The manual entry for the WPS context menu is...somewhat lacking.
18:40:31[Saint]"Like the context menu for the File Browser, the WPS Context Menu allows you quick access to some often used functions." :-/
18:40:46ZincAlloyoh wel
18:40:50[Saint]Technically correct, rather bland.
18:41:05[Saint]Yay. .tex for me when I wake up.
18:41:14[Saint](note: not yay at all)
18:45:10ZincAlloyseems like the clip sport updates its database way faster than the clip zip:
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19:06:24toehser1128x128 - is the screen bigger than the zip's 96x96, or just finer resolution?
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19:06:33ZincAlloyit's bigger
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19:07:53toehser1Zip was, 1.1" I think?
19:08:01ZincAlloyI think so, yes.
19:08:52ZincAlloyaccording to the reviewer, the clip sport's screen is much better than the clip zip's. that's good news..
19:09:49ZincAlloystiffer buttons and tighter headphone jack, too. but his clip zip might just be worn out..
19:13:22toehser1Here's a mock-up someone did of Rockbox running on it:
19:14:29ZincAlloyI prefer the cabbie themed model:
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19:51:13bertriklooking forward to hacking a clip zip sport
19:52:00ZincAlloyIt sure looks like a big improvement over the clip zip other than the stop button issue..
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19:53:44 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
19:55:31[Saint]Given the stated information, I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion.
19:55:45[Saint]All we know is it has a feature we probably won't us, and a pretty case.
19:55:56lebelliumbertrik: Clip Sport* :P
19:59:24ZincAlloythey even dropped the Sansa name
20:01:01toehser1What feature we won't use? Certainly we would use the 128x128/1.44" screen real estate, and the faster processor, and the doubled storage :)
20:01:13bertrikoh, saw it still mentioned on amazon. Is it already up on the sandisk web page?
20:01:29ZincAlloyand they have a forum for it, too
20:01:35lebelliumZincAlloy: they already dropped it before. On the recent Clip+ it's written "sandisk" instead of "sansa" on the front. And on the Clip Zip it's also written Sandisk
20:01:57toehser1Best Buy has the 4 & 8 ones in the US on sale now, 16s are showing up on eBay from Israel.
20:02:14ZincAlloybut the clip zip still has the sansa logo on the back
20:02:22bertrikOk, I see it on the sandisk page. I hope it's bascially a zip with an upgraded screen, for easy porting
20:03:28toehser1The back says sandisk. It is bigger than the zip, not just the screen.
20:04:01ZincAlloyinteresting. according to the specs it was pretty much the same size
20:04:55toehser1look at the pics in page 4 of this thread:
20:05:56ZincAlloyso is a clip+ the same size as a clip zip?
20:06:59[Saint]toehser1: ....errrr...the SoC has been confirmed?
20:07:40[Saint]re: what feature won't we use? - that crappy FM gym/fitness center local radio crap.
20:08:13toehser1Oh - right. I so much "won't use" that, that I had already tuned it out (so to speak).
20:08:36[Saint]Care to comment on your apparent inside knowledge of the SoC?
20:08:48ZincAlloywould that be any different from a regular fm tuner?
20:09:03[Saint]ZincAlloy: Not at all. :)
20:09:16bertrikI vaguely remember unlocking the diagnostic mode on my zip by pressing *all* buttons at once during boot, I'll try that again. Maybe if someone does that on the sport, we can get some extra info about the internals.
20:09:20[Saint]Doesn't stop them advertising it as a feature.
20:09:42ZincAlloysounds like good marketing to me
20:11:43*[Saint] puts the SoC statement down to assuming that probablies are definitlelies
20:11:57[Saint](but feel free to hit me with a source if there is one)
20:13:07[Saint]I'm willing to believe that the mold hasn't been broken from the other past variants and the HW is very much what we'll expect it to be
20:14:17bertrikdoes anyone know what the current firmware version of the clip sport is?
20:14:56toehser1I'm extrapolating from the user who found that db operations were much faster than on previous ones, but that may be because they've fundamentally changed their database implementation, not because of the hardware, based on other comments.
20:14:58lebelliumwe know nothing about it because usual users don't care about anything
20:15:10lebelliumdevs are obliged to buy it :)
20:18:17toehser1clip zip is slightly bigger than clip plus, but not nearly as much bigger as the sport seems to be. I haven't found the dimensions posted, but there is the side-by-side with a clip+ picture, and there are side-by-sides of course between zip and plus.
20:18:57[Saint]toehser1: such extrapolation is flawed
20:19:07[Saint]It could simply boil down a a faster NAND.
20:19:30 Quit rbert (Quit: Verlassend)
20:19:34[Saint]Its likely, indeed, but I'd like to avoid pure speculation.
20:20:35ZincAlloywe can only speculate as long as noone bothers to buy a player ^^
20:21:23[Saint]No, we know two things at least. It has a "pretty" case and an FM non-feature.
20:21:46ZincAlloyand a larger screen. and better battery life.
20:22:10[Saint]Well, we know the stated battery life.
20:22:19[Saint]Runtime has yet to be seen in the wild.
20:22:30ZincAlloyand since the player is physically bigger than the clip zip that can mean two things: it uses a more efficient chip or it has a bigger battery.
20:22:58ZincAlloyI assume it's somewhat realistic
20:23:15[Saint]How does bigger player == more efficient SoC?
20:23:30soapbigger screen
20:23:32ZincAlloyit means a bigger battery could fit in
20:24:57[Saint]The battery part is understandable. But I don't quite get how bigger player directly equates to a more efficient SoC.
20:25:28ZincAlloyit doesn't. more efficient SoC is a possible explanation for the better battery life
20:25:46[Saint]I'm almost willing to bet cash money on it being an SoC we've seen in this range before.
20:26:04ZincAlloyThat's very likely
20:26:18toehser1I hope so - that makes a port much easier, doesn't it?
20:26:23ZincAlloyconsidering their history
20:26:28[Saint]Much so.
20:27:03[Saint]It would be fun to disassemble and see what lessons, if any, they learned from Rockbox.
20:27:09saratogamy guess is its probably a fuze+ in a different package, imx is so cheap no sense designing something new
20:27:21[Saint]saratoga: That's what I'm guessing too
20:27:26ZincAlloyconsidering the firmware reviews: probably not much at all
20:27:32[Saint]Just a pretty case on the same old same old.
20:27:52ZincAlloywhich is not a bad thing
20:28:02saratogaretail price of the whole SOC is like 4 dollars
20:28:10*[Saint] nods
20:28:11saratogaorder 10 million and its probably way less
20:28:39[Saint]They possibly even fabricate themselves?
20:28:45[Saint]Big enough to.
20:29:32[Saint]I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they had holdings in a fabrication plant.
20:30:34saratogafreescale would handle that
20:32:19saratogaparts like this are fabbed on some ancient process familiar to the vendor to keep costs low, porting it to some modern fab would be cost prohibitive
20:32:52saratogaplus the analog bits are not friendly to porting
20:36:06[Saint]Oh. Yeah. Right. Indeed, if they aren't making their own flash controllers for sd, its unlikely they're fabricating SoCs.
20:36:25[Saint]I have no idea why I didn't think of that.
20:38:05[Saint](partial backstory: like almost everyone else they seem to be doing little more than repackaging Toshiba controllers)
20:38:05ZincAlloyfunny that they haven't bothered to include microsdxc support
20:38:31saratogalooking on line its done in 90 nm lp, so probably some old motorola fab left over from the mid-2000s
20:38:53saratogaalthough thats quite a bit newer than AMS, so probably why battery life is better
20:39:12[Saint]Slightly larger than I expected.
20:39:41[Saint]I guess these don;t really need such fine processing, though.
20:40:29saratogaAMS was 130 nm
20:40:36saratogamost PP was 180 nm
20:40:46saratogatheres a reason these things cost a few dollars each
20:40:51[Saint]I knew PP was huge (not really, for its time).
20:41:13*whiskers75 hugs [Saint]
20:41:13saratogaits funny to see these ancient processors on semi-modern fab processes though
20:41:21saratogaARM9E was designed on 250 nm I think
20:41:23[Saint]But the other two I find a little surprising
20:41:32saratogaarm7tdmi isn't much younger then CMOS itself
20:41:52*[Saint] looks at his faithful iPod
20:42:16*whiskers75 looks at his faithful Sansa Clip+
20:43:06saratoga"Samsung microSD cards contain an ARM7TDMI controller with 128 KB of code."
20:43:18saratogaso they have the 7tdmi at least running on 45 nm, maybe newer
20:43:46whiskers75hug a developer day!
20:43:53*whiskers75 hugs saratoga
20:45:14[Saint]A little offtopic, but I wonder if we will ever actually see 2TB SDXC in our lifetime, or ever.
20:45:35[Saint](for instance, if a newer format comes along and kills uSD)
20:45:49[Saint]However unlikely that may be.
20:45:54saratogaprobably in SDXC
20:46:02saratogamaybe not microSDXC
20:46:17[Saint]whoops. right. forgot a u
20:46:33saratogai don't see SDXC going away anytime in the next decade
20:46:56[Saint]I'm surprised SD has lasted as long as it has.
20:47:08saratogai'm not sure if it will be possible to put 2TB in a uSDXC card using CMOS flash cells
20:47:15[Saint]Hell...some things use CF still.
20:48:41[Saint]I suppose we'll have to look semi-seriously into exFAT support in the near-ish future, assume the project survives and maintains relevance.
20:48:52saratogai don't think it would be very hard to do
20:49:02saratogathe exfat libraries i saw looked fairly simple
20:49:27saratogatheres not a huge need at the moment though since reformatting to fat32 is pretty easy
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20:49:52[Saint]I managed to completely miss exFAT going GPL
20:50:26saratogai think theres at least 2 different libraries
20:50:46saratogai think samsung open sourced one as well
20:51:15[Saint]Yeah, hence my prior comment. I found it surprising.
20:51:42[Saint]Last time I looked there was a very function RE'd implemenation.
20:51:42saratogaits a simple file format, so reverse engineering it was probably very easy
20:51:51saratogacompared to say a FTL
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20:55:05[Saint]Oh. Hmmmm.
20:55:22[Saint]I'm somewhat confused about the legality of the use of exFAT.
20:55:38 Part LinusN
20:55:40[Saint]It seems it is "open", but still very much protected. IANAL.
20:56:29Galoisthe code is GPL but may still be patent-encumbered in some jurisdictions, notably the USA
20:56:35[Saint]As in, they gave us the /ability/ to use it, but not the /right/ to.
20:56:50[Saint]Basically what Galois just said, yeah.
20:57:03[Saint]TL;DR: Stupid US patent laws shitting on things
20:57:07Galoissimilar to mp3 a few years ago, before the mp3 patents expired
20:58:01[Saint]Didn't the US extend the term of utility patents fairly recently?
20:58:14[Saint](recent in terms of "not a massive amount of time ago)
20:58:19Galoisno? it's 20 years from date of filing
20:58:25Galoisthe last extension was in like 1992 or something
20:58:57[Saint]Oh geez. How do I remember 1995?
20:59:05Galoisyou're right, 1995
20:59:14Galois"For applications filed before June 8, 1995, the term is either 17 years from the issue date or 20 years from the earliest claimed domestic priority date, whichever is longer."
20:59:22 Quit chrisjj (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
20:59:31[Saint]Where'd you dig that up?
20:59:49[Saint]Ah. Thanks.
20:59:54Galoiscopyright terms were extended in 1998, by 20 years, to protect mickey mouse
21:00:12 Quit saratoga (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
21:00:14Galoiscount on another extension of copyright terms in 2018, when mickey mouse comes under threat again
21:00:57[Saint]Getting wildly offtopic, but if Mickey Mouse is still relevant enough to need that protection in 2018, I fear I may kill myself.
21:01:46ZincAlloywhy does mickey mouse need copyright protection at all? wouldn't the appearance be trademarked?
21:02:13Galoisthe early films are, of course, copyrighted. Disney doesn't want you copying those exact movies.
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21:14:45[Saint]ZincAlloy: or the stripped down version " 'cos, USA".
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21:15:54[Saint]Land of the free, harley davidson, bald eagles, and the violently litigious.
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22:28:38wodzpamaury: (log) Yes, hwstub/lib was not compiled and this was my complaint about build system. Anyway recent qeditor crashes when attempting to connect with older hwstub. I didn't try with recent hwstub yet.
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22:34:10LittleAnonyes, here I am again.
22:36:16LittleAnonmy sansa clip doesnt seem to want to read what I have on my sd card! I thought it would do it automaticly, ive rebooted a few times and used the Initiliaze + update now setting a few time, and waited for hours while I assumed it was doing that in the background, but it STILL doesnt read it and I have no indication that it actually did something
22:36:21LittleAnonso what do I do?
22:37:02wodzIn which file sits database code?
22:39:46LittleAnonWhat do you mean?
22:39:48 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:41:14 Quit fyre^OS (Quit: quit)
22:42:10wodzLittleAnon: This question wasn't directed to you.
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22:59:43pamaurywodz (logs): can you trace back the crash of hwstub lib ?
23:00:20pamaurythe newer version certainly won't work with older hwstub since I changed the protocol but it shouldn't crash
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23:03:24[Saint]LittleAnon: My first though would be to check that you haven't excluded this path from database scanning.
23:04:16[Saint]*first thought
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