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#rockbox log for 2014-03-11

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01:55:35the-kyleLooks like I can't build for application targets for some reason. I can build everything else though. My client should now be running.
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11:46:56toehserThe Sandisk 128GB MicroSDXC card selling for $119 on Amazon is confirmed to work fine in the Sansa Clip Zip (as expected).
11:48:22coppernow if only my sd card reader problem on the fuze+ would go away :(
11:48:24copperpamaury: ^^ :)
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11:54:16pamaurycopper: I'm sorry, I was very busy and it's not easy to come up with tests when you don't have the device to test it. Today I have some free time, I will send you a new firmware to try
11:54:28copperok, no worries
11:54:40copperI did offer you to ship it to you :P
11:55:31pamauryyeah maybe we can do that
11:56:41coppermight be simpler, and you could gather whatever extra data you like about it, write down the hardware differences or whatever
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11:57:27copperyou could also open it up, if you promise to put it back together :P
11:59:31copperI just PMed you my email address
11:59:35copperjust send your info there
11:59:41copperI'll give you mine
12:00:47copperit's the same email address that's commented in my theme cfg files
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12:09:01pmichaelhi i am having problems with Rockbox Bootloader v1.0 in Ipod nano 2g,using any build version including stable 3.10,I've searched google, forums and in the manual and my last change is IRC
12:09:51ikeboypmichael: What do you mean by "problems"? Please be more specific
12:10:23pmichaeli try boot and the message of error says: ATA error:1 (not -1) and says for hold menu + select
12:11:16copperpamaury: got it, thanks
12:11:41ikeboyI'm not that familiar with that ipod but I think that error is known, I'll try to look it up
12:12:38pmichael ok :) if I know what this error means I can try to fix
12:13:44 Join ii_ [0] (
12:17:27ii_Could anyone give me an estimate of how much code should I rewrite to support hires sound (192kHz/24bit) output on rockbox, if I have a player with a DAC supporting this and a working pcm driver supporting this for rockbox?
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12:19:56ikeboypmichael: I see some results on the forum, but there aren't solutions (
12:20:23ikeboyIt might be a hard drive issue, did you try to replace the hard drive (or is it the original)
12:23:27gevaertsikeboy: nano
12:23:36gevaertsNo replaceable hard drive
12:23:51ikeboyI don't have experience with it
12:24:01gevaertsIt's a flash device
12:24:14ikeboySo what's this ATA error?
12:25:18gevaertsIIRC the nano uses a flash chip with some sort of ATA interface
12:25:58pmichael anyone in forums say ata errors increasing number in sequence of boot,so -1 is very early,but mine says 1
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12:27:04gevaertsOh, wait. 2nd gen
12:27:09gevaertsSo not the ATA driver
12:27:15wodznano2g uses raw nand. On top of this there is Whimory FTL which emulates block access
12:27:19gevaerts[7]: this one is for you I think
12:28:54wodzii_: Pretty much everything in rockbox assumes 44.1/48 16bit samples. While higher sampling rates should be simple to add, 24bit samples gonna be hard
12:29:18wodzii_: you should talk with saratoga and jhMikeS about this
12:30:14pmichaelI've restored 6 times through itunes and and uninstalled and installed via bootloader and rockbox utility ipodpatcher but ele sometimes shows ata error: 1 (not -1)
12:31:00gevaertspmichael: I suspect only [7] knows that part of the nano2g well enough to help you
12:33:30pmichaelok thx for help :) my ipod nano 2g fails sometimes but he can boot fine sometimes too :)
12:34:02pmichaelI will continue looking for a solution
12:36:59ii_wodz: thank you, will wait for them coming online
12:37:09pmichaeloh the lcd turn off is very slow,like a fade out in apple firmware is normal,but when reboot or rockbox shutsdown the lcd some lines still visible 4-5 secs
12:39:10wodzii_: anyway you know that 192kHz/24bit is pointless in consumer electronic, right?
12:39:22pmichaelif nand fails and lcd behavior is strange,maybe hardware responsible for power management have a bad cap or other smd
12:41:32ii_wodz: I have a few ideas why it could be so, but a link to a good article explaining physical reasons for that would be great
12:42:30wodzthere was good article on, I'll try to dig it up
12:43:31copper → 24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed
12:43:59copperii_: note that saratoga doesn't usually come here unless he sees his name in the web log
12:44:05KohlrabiClassic HA discussion link :D
12:44:36copper → Xiph.Org Video Presentations: Digital Show & Tell
12:44:44copperalso relevant ^^
12:45:09KohlrabiIs that the video where monty drinks half a liter of brown goo in the end?
12:45:17copperyeah :D
12:45:45KohlrabiNo, it's the second one
12:46:13 Quit pmichael ()
12:46:20copperii_: what's the device in question? Have you run RMAA on it, to see if it's even capable of actual > 16 bit performance?
12:46:56wodzcopper: ibosso dx50
12:47:15copperimplementing 24 bit playback may be awfully wasteful if it turns out the device can only do like 97 dB of dynamic range
12:48:16copperthe DX100 only manages 90 dB in those measurements, though you might get slightly better results with the lineout
12:48:47copper(16 bit performance being about 96 dB of DR)
12:49:24copper91 dB here
12:49:52coppercompared to my iPod's 95 dB
12:51:25ii_Great article, thank you. Will read thoroughly before jumping into implementing that :)
12:52:19copperdepends on why you want to do it
12:52:27dfktso its SNR is equal to the hifiman hm801... or sansa clip ;)
12:52:32copperif it's to appeal to an audiophile base, then you should do it
12:52:44copperif it's to squeeze out better sound quality, you won't get anywhere
12:53:47copperdfkt: well, I don't know what limitations his ADC has
12:54:06copperalso, measured performance tends to get lower when loaded with such IEMs
12:54:36copperthough SNR should be affected
12:54:41copper(by the load)
12:56:27copperdfkt: compare to
12:56:46coppermy Clip's SNR value is a full 3 dB higher than his
12:58:02dfktmy tests of the original clip are all around -88.6 db -
12:59:00dfktand some "generation improvement" -
12:59:20copperyou're probably limited by your ADC
12:59:36dfktecho audiofire 4
12:59:45coppergot a loopback RMAA of it?
13:01:34dfktnot online... it was something around 94.x db for 16/44 when i measured it
13:04:28copperyou should make RMAA recordings in 24 bit in order to measure 16 bit performance without any limitations
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16:14:07toehserHas anyone ever measured the mic on the Clip Zip this way?
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19:29:32saratogaii__: 24 bit in rockbox would be trivial, we already operate internally at 32 bit precision, so you can pass whatever you want to your audio hardware
19:30:14saratogaif your SNR is close to 96dB, there may be an advantage to it, but only if your hardware can actually do > 16 effective bits and only if the underlying software driver you call in linux supports it
19:30:31saratogathis should be measured
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19:30:51saratoga96k is completely pointless and will waste power, but i'm not sure how hard it would be to actually implement
19:31:07saratogai think you can add it easily enough and playback will work at it, but many of the DSP effects will probably fail
19:31:36saratogaunlike 24 bit, i don't recommend using it, as the complexity and battery consumption will not be offset by any meaningful improvements
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19:32:21ii__saratoga: thank you for the explanation!
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19:33:15saratogai can think of one obvious problem at 96k, the compressor buffers will all be far too small to look ahead properly
19:33:26ii__I'll wait for someone to do measurements of dx50
19:34:01saratogaif the line out measurements are really close to 96 k, theres a good chance you can do a little better using 24 bit mode, at least assuming the underlying system actually supports it
19:34:04coppervery few people RMAA stuff
19:34:08saratoga96 dB
19:34:51saratogado you have the source code for the linux driver?
19:35:19ii__there are enough fans at or waiting for roxkbox at dx50, some of them could do that if they are really interested in hires :)
19:36:22ii__no source of course, but I can read pcm info from driver
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19:37:36copperheadfiers have no clue how to do that, and they don't even believe measurements mean anything
19:37:54copper"what I hear can't be measured or explained by science"
19:38:16saratogathe driver will almost certainly tell you it takes 24 bit (and 32 bit ..) but that doesn't mean it actually passes that to the hardware, nor that the hardware actually uses those extra bits
19:38:47saratogayou need to measure to see if the extra information is used or not
19:39:37pamaurybluebrother: ping
19:40:51saratogaso far, no device that rockbox has ever been ported to has shown any difference in output between 16 and 24 bit
19:41:44pamauryI am starting working on this scsi lib I promise, this is long overdue, where do you think it should go ? I'm thinking maybe in tools/scsi.{c,h} since it should be quite small. Or a utils/libscsi/ but that's really one file so I'm not sure it is a win to compile it as a lib rather than just including it. Any thoughts ?
19:42:09saratogawhats it for?
19:43:22ii__so what would I need for the basic measurement? I have, would it be enough?
19:44:54copperdoesn't look like it:
19:45:27copper90.6 dB DR
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19:46:38copperunless they screwed up their setup
19:48:20saratogai think a lot of USB stuff is only 16 bit because of windows
19:48:29saratogaso probably it'll need to be a real sound card
19:48:44copperlike this :)
19:49:01saratogathat would work
19:49:51copperit seems like a lot of "prosumer" USB devices perform relatively poorly
19:52:36coppernote that 112.7 dB is not even 19 bits of DR
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19:53:33copperbut I guess that 18 bits of performance would be worth enabling 24 bit playback
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20:01:10ii__I'm recording drums with fast track ultra in ardour at linux, and at least they all pretend that they record 24@96. Ok, I got the idea what is to be measured, will try soon.
20:08:39pamaurysaratoga: you mean the scsi lib ?
20:09:42saratogayeah, is it for installing ?
20:10:35pamauryyes, for RbUtil, I need to do scsi on all OSes. Since it's a real pain, I think it's worth doing it once for all and port all tools which rely on it to it
20:13:32saratogaah neat
20:14:45pamauryfor Linux and Windows that's quite ok but for Mac it appears to be quite a thing :-/
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20:56:55[7]pmichael (for the logs), gevaerts, wodz: I can't tell much about that error without further debugging. seems like the FTL is okay enough to allow the apple bootloader to load the rockbox bootloader, but our driver fails for some reason.
20:57:45[7]he could try to install emcore for further debugging (nandfsck might fix it)
20:57:59[7]emcore includes its own FTL repair tool, while the rockbox bootloader relies on the apple bootloader to do it
20:58:19[7]another option would be to completely wipe the flash chip and let the apple bootloader reinitialize the FTL from scratch
21:03:50wodzgosh, I finally tracked all 325 symbols implementation in source and all plugins can find all needed symbols (at least using my external tool). This is for vibe500 only however and not checked yet on actual target.
21:10:51pamaurywodz: great work :)
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21:22:55alexbobpout of curiosity, is there a hardware freason fuze+ can do usb keypad and clip+ can't? or is that where the development is right now
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21:24:38wodzalexbobp: It may be related to the fact that clip+ usb driver is known to have problems. Composite device (HID+MSC) usually is problem for not so stable drivers
21:25:15pamauryalexbobp: the clip+ should be able to do so, but iirc interrupts transfer (which are needed for this to work), maybe have been disabled on it because they were unreliable. Just a theory, someone would need to check the code to be sure
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21:30:29alexbobpah I see
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23:41:30wodzyay, plugins and codecs are working
23:41:53kugelwodz: cool stuff!
23:43:12wodzI need to clean this up and I'll push to gerrit. I concentrate on native part only for now so lots of stuff is broken probably.
23:45:24wodzkugel: Do you see possibility to have plugin/codec buffer allocated dynamically?
23:46:10kugelyea, should be doable
23:46:43kugelbut they should be relocatable for that
23:46:51wodzwhat you mean?
23:47:12kugelthe load address isnt constant for dynamic buffers
23:47:44wodzah, that is implemented already in elfloader stuff on gerrit
23:48:41wodzit is static relocation (like in linux kernel modules)
23:49:23wodzanyway you can load plugin to whatever address you like as long as it is word aligned
23:50:16kugelso you just have to allocate buffers suitable for running code (non-movable/shrinkable)
23:51:04kugeli mean you can do this right now
23:51:19alexbobppamaury_: do you want flyspray reports on bugs I find on fuze+? or should I assume that for now you're still finding plenty of bugs
23:53:33wodzkugel: How well this works? Doesn't nonmovable alloc disrupts buflib operation?
23:53:43pamaury_alexbobp: what bug ?
23:55:39kugelwodz: generally yes
23:56:16kugelbuflib will still be able to allocate before and after the nonmovables when there is enough space in either section
23:56:26alexbobppamaury_: crashes loading certain themes, and the ui acts buggy in general if the display is set to upside down
23:56:30alexbobpand any future ones I find :P
23:56:39alexbobpI guess I will just poke you in here with these things first to see if you want more info ;)
23:57:04pamaury_first one is not fuze+ specific that's theme bugs, we have plenty of them already
23:57:13kugelnormally the buffer before will be compact and buflib will attempt to allocate in the section behind
23:57:22pamaury_I will check for upside down, actually I'm surprised someone uses that
23:57:36alexbobphehe the fuze+ is the first player that made me interested to try it
23:57:39wodzkugel: For plugins this is probably not an issue but if one day we split parts of the core as loadable modules this may become significant
23:57:39alexbobpbecause it's so awkwardly laid out
23:58:10kugelit won't cause problems, the only issue is that the nonmovable alloc cannot be moved down to make the buffer compact again
23:58:11alexbobppamaury_: I can also throw feature requests your way :P but either way thanks for the great work so far
23:58:31alexbobpI'm hoping at some point there can be vertical swiping in menus
23:58:39*wodz dreams about database as module which I will never load :P
23:58:58pamaury_alexbobp: you mean sliding on the touchpad ?

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