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#rockbox log for 2014-03-28

00:03:55 Join us`0gb [0] (
00:15:23 Quit bertrik (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:19:15[Saint]WHat the shit?
00:19:42[Saint]Why can't the client handle spaces in the $PATH?
00:20:01scorche|shbecause they cant levitate?
00:20:11[Saint]I can build fine - so why does the master care?
00:20:37[Saint]Stoopidy stupid McStoopidson....grumble.
00:21:24[Saint]gevaerts: Why would this become an issue only *just now*?
00:24:17us`0gbscorche|sh, nice.
00:36:39 Quit the-kyle (Remote host closed the connection)
00:38:51 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
00:39:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:56:54 Quit |akaWolf| (Quit: my exit)
01:04:05 Join the-kyle [0] (
01:18:22 Join Misanthropos [0] (
01:20:17 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
01:21:46MisanthroposIs Ogg/Vorbis encoding too cpu heavy to include it to the available list of recording formats?
01:23:15Misanthroposor is there another reason (except it has not been done, yet)?
01:23:27[Saint]It shouldn't be.
01:23:46[Saint]Its proably that we just don't have a suitably licensed encoder.
01:24:13[Saint]Or Mr. Someone simply just hasn't done the work yet.
01:25:00[Saint]Just use PCM and transcode if you *need* .ogg files, I guess.
01:25:43MisanthroposThat my current approach
01:25:56Misanthroposbut PCM tends to grow quickly
01:26:45MisanthroposSo it should be GNU licenced v2 or v3?
01:28:00[Saint]Or a suitably portable license, yes. And no floating point.
01:28:16[Saint]The latter is likely problematic also.
01:30:24MisanthroposOh... maybe the because of the latter....
01:32:12Misanthroposthere is a decoder, but: Tremor is a fixed-point implementation of the Vorbis decoder suitable for chips found on portable devices. However, a fixed-point encoder has not been written.
01:32:39Misanthroposso.. back to the former approach
01:33:01[Saint]I'm not sure how many, if any, targets actually have an FPU.
01:33:20[Saint]Possibly its only the application targets. ARM/NEON.
01:33:35 Join cmhobbs [0] (~cmhobbs@fsf/member/cmhobbs)
01:34:06[Saint]Oh. And maybe the MIPS ones?
01:34:23*[Saint] shrugs
01:34:56MisanthroposI have not clue about the different types of cpus
01:35:14saratogayou probably wouldn't want to use an embedded lossy encoder anyway, quality is going to be quite poor
01:35:20saratogaunless you just want voice or something
01:35:47[Saint]Well, the mic *is* awful... ;)
01:36:25 Quit RiD (Quit: A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.)
01:36:35[Saint]Recording to mp3 isn't _that_ bad.
01:36:39Misanthroposyes... quality from input on a sansa clip+ is already crappy. one more reason not to spend a lot of space for a recording
01:37:31Misanthroposmp3 works indeed. just thought it would be nice to use a free codec
01:37:46Misanthroposand converting from mp3 i dont want to
01:37:54[Saint] are, really.
01:38:03[Saint]Its a free implementation of a non-free codec.
01:38:30[Saint]Its not like we're paying any licensing.
01:38:45Misanthroposmaybe i read too much from richard stallman lately ;)
01:38:59[Saint]That man needs a bullet in the face.
01:39:46Misanthroposnot the right place to discuss it here i guess
01:40:56[Saint]Anyhoo - yeah. While mp3 in general may be non-free, the implementation thereof in Rockbox is.
01:42:19 Quit fragilematter (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:43:10the-kyleI'd love to see an opus encoder, as the quality is far superior to mp3, especially on something like a Clip+ or Clip Zip. Problem is I'm not a low-level coder, so probably wouldn't be able to help implement it.
01:43:15 Join fragilematter [0] (~fragilema@unaffiliated/fragilematter)
01:44:01[Saint]the-kyle: same problem as vorbis.
01:44:05[Saint]No FPU.
01:44:29the-kyleIs the fixed point implementation of opus only for the decoder?
01:44:44[Saint]As far as I am aware.
01:45:05Misanthroposi had hopes for a short moment
01:45:41the-kyleI thought for sure some people were getting it working on those cheap little ARM boards, but I guess most of those have FPU's these days.
01:45:55[Saint]Realistically this isn't something the device should be caring about.
01:46:04[Saint]Its too computationally expensive.
01:46:24the-kyleI've just been using wavpack and converting to opus on the desktop.
01:46:26[Saint]Capture a lossless stream and then transcode it later on a machine that is far more suited to the task.
01:47:26[Saint]the-kyle: re: "cheap little ARM boards", yes. Indeed.
01:49:39the-kyleThe nice thing about Wavpack is that when recording from the mic, it can produce a mono file that runs around 250Kb/s, and can be converted to opus at 32Kb/s on the computer with no noticeable loss of sound quality compared to the original recording. 24 is also decent when encoded from a lossless file.
01:51:09[Saint]Most of theose ARM boards are probably ARMv6 w/ NEON or ARMv7, I would guess.
01:51:34[Saint]Both have FPU/VFP.
01:52:21the-kyleYes. Some even have Cortex A9.
01:52:59[Saint]So, its definitely /possible/. But I don't think anyone wants to split up the codebase.
01:53:06the-kyleI think the Pi is the oldest/least powerful, and I think it has Neon or something.
01:53:28[Saint]Raspberry Pi is by no means the oldest.
01:53:34[Saint]Just the most common.
01:54:15*[Saint] looks at his Mini2440
01:55:10the-kyleI was referring more to the ARM version than the unit itself, although I'm sure more boards are still in production with older processors.
01:57:04[Saint]IIRC, my Mini2440 is 533MHz ARM9
01:57:18[Saint]Ah. ARM926T
01:57:42[Saint]FriendlyARM - nice little board.
01:57:52[Saint]Well, it /was/.
01:58:46[Saint]I need to do some benchmarks with Rockbox on an ST-E Snowball
02:03:27[Saint]That thing has a reasonable bit of grunt. See:
02:04:35[Saint](sliding off-topic here, but I highly suggest buying one, at €35 its pretty hard to justify *not* buying one)
02:16:47[Saint]gevaerts: (logs) could you please re-enable my client, spaces removed from client path.
02:18:15the-kyleWoe that's a nice little board, and the price is right too.
02:19:09[Saint]Jump into #rockbox-community if you want to talk about it some more, I kida derailed the topic.
02:39:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:42:50 Join Strife89 [0] (
02:53:28 Join saratoga_ [0] (123e1fc2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
02:54:06saratoga_there is actually an integer only opus encoder, and in theory we already have it in rockbox, we just didn't add the bits to let people use it
02:54:14saratoga_and probably optimization to have it working in real time
02:55:19[Saint]Oh? Really?
02:55:37[Saint]Huh. I was unaware there was such a thing.
02:59:04saratoga_right now the encoder bits are just disabled in the make file
02:59:56the-kyleThen I guess it would just need to be added to the recording menu with some sane bitrate selections?
03:00:00 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection)
03:01:27saratoga_and the codec interface bits, yeah
03:03:25the-kyleHmmm. I need to figure out all the stuff about sending in patches, although I have already modified my local Rockbox with some voice announce stuff that isn't in mainline.
03:05:09the-kyleThat and I also have a hotkey configured that probably won't be applied. It worked pretty well on the Clip+, but it's somehow just a bit awkward on the Clip Zip, probably because of the shape of the direction pad.
03:07:40the-kyleMy local stuff isn't committed anywhere. Hmmm. I may be able to stash my stuff and just branch with the opus recording. I'll definitely look at it, unless someone gets to it before I do.
03:08:19saratoga_i think usually you start a new git branch for a project like this
03:25:28the-kyleYeah, there's definitely a right way to do it. It's in the wiki. I'll make an attempt to do it right :-).
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03:57:58*JdGordon prods [Saint]
04:01:18Misanthroposthe-kyle, That sounds great :)
04:03:05the-kyleI'll see what I can do. I'm not making any promises about time though, but I'd like to get it in for review. Since opus is a standard now, it would be great to be able to encode it directly from a Rockbox device.
04:03:51MisanthroposI agree.. I would be happy to test it.. and maybe help improve it
04:05:14Misanthroposare your still using gerrit for that?
04:05:53the-kyleThat's the thing I need to learn about. I've never used it before now, I've just done git branches.
04:06:14Misanthroposthere is btw still no quickmenu item for the sleeptimer switch on/off.. i once did some work on it but got lost with branches updates merging.. in the end i gave up that one
04:06:53Misanthroposoh..... then welcome to hell ;)
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04:07:35the-kyleI take it it's nothing even remotely like Github?gitorious.
04:09:08Misanthroposwell.. maybe remotely...
04:09:49Misanthroposat the time i did not know git well
04:10:11Misanthroposstill dont.. but at least have had some more experience
04:10:20the-kyleWell, if it's anything like Github or Gitorious, I should be able to find my way around fairly easily.
04:10:42the-kyleI don't yet know all the finer points, but I can do some of the most important stuff.
04:11:15the-kyleIf it's just a matter of setting up an account and importing a branch, I'll be a quick study.
04:12:02the-kyleI've been using Rockbox for years, it's time I did something, even if it's something small.
04:12:09Misanthroposyeah... until you need to merge with main and back to gerrit.. at one point i was lost... and its cumbersome to keep up with the main tree
04:12:42the-kyleCan't I just do a pull like I do in other projects?
04:12:47Misanthroposit should not be too complicated and i would be happy to help
04:14:09the-kyleI think there's details on the developers' wiki page. I'll study it and see how it works.
04:14:28Misanthroposif not.. you could just upload a copy of rockbox to github/bitbucket and i pull it from there ;)
04:14:55 Quit Marex (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
04:14:58Misanthroposor we could work together on that and push the diff to gerrit
04:15:03Misanthroposas an idea
04:15:07the-kyleSounds good either way.
04:15:48saratoga_gerrit is annoyingly complex
04:16:24Misanthroposhaha I hear you
04:17:21the-kyleIs it better to maintain my own branch in another repository then? But then I still need to push difs.
04:17:33Misanthroposcreating a diff is easy
04:17:57the-kyleI still would need to put the diff somewhere
04:18:19Misanthroposno.. everybody could make a diff from your repository
04:18:27the-kyleI just figured it would be best to try to work with the established system.
04:18:42Misanthroposand you can make a pull request too
04:19:06Misanthroposall the power to you :)
04:19:17the-kyleI actually have a local copy I call rockbox-kyle-mod, but I never committed any of my changes. I just need to push it somewhere.
04:19:57Misanthroposhave you merged it with the main tree?
04:20:36Misanthroposor as you said... stash it
04:20:59the-kyleI stash it, and haven't ever had trouble applying the stach when I pull from the main tree.
04:22:00Misanthroposmust have been bad luck for me then.. but i had to touch a number of different files.. including definitions for menu entries...a
04:22:02the-kyleI've been able to keep a wps-announce patch updated and working that way. I actually haven't had a conflict git couldn't resolve in about 3 years.
04:22:44Misanthroposhmm... maybe i can find the changes i made back then
04:23:17the-kyleThe changes I stash touch the settings menu and voice files, so I must be luckier than I ever thought.
04:23:27the-kylegit stash
04:23:30the-kylegit pull
04:23:34the-kylegit stash apply
04:23:34Misanthroposhmm... so a new menuentry for opus and a menu for opus setting would be needed...
04:23:48the-kyleThose 3 seem to work all the time.
04:24:05the-kyleYes. And the encoder needs to be enabled in the Makefile.
04:25:02Misanthroposand hopefully we can just adapt the skel from the mp3 stuff :)
04:25:44the-kyleThat's what I planned to study and try to duplicate for opus.
04:26:43the-kyleThe only problem I can see is if the target can't sample at 48000Hz.
04:27:13the-kyleThe opus encoder has to resample 44100Hz to 48000Hz internally.
04:28:52saratoga_i would look at wavepack_enc.c
04:29:02Misanthroposi did not know that... and i wonder where the encoder ist.. no opus_enc.c
04:29:42saratoga_codec_run does most of the actual work of taking data from rockbox and passing it to the encoder
04:30:07saratoga_thats the file you write
04:30:32the-kyleIn that case, we may be able to start by copying wavepack-enc.c and then just change the wavpack function calls to opus calls.
04:31:31saratoga_thats what i would do
04:32:28the-kyleSounds like we got a start. Then we need to allow for setting the bitrate. I'm thinking 12, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, 96 and maybe 128.
04:32:49Misanthroposif the encoder supports that...
04:33:31the-kyleThe encoder is completely variable. It accepts I believe 6 to insane, like over 300 or something.
04:34:26Misanthroposand i believe it does no need resampling.
04:35:00the-kyle6 to 256 per channel according to opusenc. I'm thinking of pulling out some sane values , probably the ones above should be good for most cases.
04:35:36the-kyleIt resamples internally if the input sample rate isn't 48000Hz.
04:36:25the-kyleIt may only be a problem from a computational standpoint. Resampling internally will make encoding more expensive.
04:36:50Misanthroposleave the insane option open to the user :) maybe one has a great sound source
04:37:33the-kyleWould it be possible to put a text editable value there, e.g. "custom?"
04:38:25 Quit ygrek (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:39:21the-kyleSo we could go with 12, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, 96, 128 and Custom, which could be edited. The only concern would be the high number of possible values in the menu itself. Maybe stop at 64 before custom? It's certainly good enough for recording fm.
04:39:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:44:27Misanthroposits just one menu.. you supply some valid codecs... you make steps of 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever.... and specify upper and lower limits
04:44:48Misanthroposi mean bitrates.. instead of codecs
04:44:56the-kyleWoe that seems easier than I thought.
04:45:11the-kyleI thought each bitrate needed to be added to the menu.
04:45:16Misanthroposif the codec supports those..
04:45:29Misanthroposdepends on the menu you choose
04:45:39the-kyleWhat does it do for the stuff in between the limits.
04:45:49Misanthroposbut i know there is one which works like that.. (volume e.b)
04:46:09the-kyleOpus can take anything. It likes 22 and 89 just as much as 32 and 64.
04:46:10saratoga_the sampling rate and bit rate are irrelevant until you have the encoder actually working
04:46:25saratoga_hard code them to some sane values and move on for now
04:46:33the-kyleYeah, you got a point there.
04:47:26the-kyleSo for now, I like 64. It's more than good enough in most cases. I would even consider it FM quality.
04:47:48Misanthroposgo for it :)
04:47:54the-kyleThen we can add a menu as soon as we can get that common bitrate working.
04:48:17Misanthroposthe main work should be integrating the codec
04:49:35 Quit [Saint] (Remote host closed the connection)
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04:50:42the-kyleSo first thing is to figure out the whole Gerrit thing, and then I'll begin work on getting opus recording working.
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04:51:56the-kyleEither that or I can push my local repo somewhere and just send pull requests or something.
04:53:15*the-kyle goes to look at the developer wiki.
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05:20:46the-kyleLooks like Gerrit isn't as difficult as I first thought, so I'll make an attempt to get it set up so I can start coding.
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10:12:41gevaerts[Saint]: (logs) re-added
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10:59:28[Saint]gevaerts: thank you.
11:00:40[Saint]Why is it that it was OK for a while and then suddenly decided to freak out?
11:00:59*gevaerts does not know
11:01:06gevaertsThat test has been there forever though
11:01:18[Saint]Fair enough. Lesson learned on my end, anyway. :)
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20:41:56coppercan someone code me a "vinyl" DSP for Rockbox please? :)
20:52:10ZincAlloyone that adds surface noise and crackle?
20:52:42marazor just dynamic expansion
20:53:10 Quit K1773R (Read error: Operation timed out)
20:53:23ZincAlloynah. what's lost is lost. today's music is so severely limited, an expander would be pointless
20:54:33copperZincAlloy: yeah, noise, clicks and pops, wow and flutter
20:54:49coppermostly the first three
20:54:50ZincAlloyoh, quite low fi
20:54:53copperyeah :)
20:54:56 Quit tchan (Read error: Operation timed out)
20:54:58ZincAlloyit would have to sum the low end to mono
20:55:22copperI guess you could just loop some recording of noise, and insert clicks and pops randomly
20:56:08ZincAlloyvinyl often has a bit of distortion on the loudest parts
20:56:38gevaertsYou're wrong! Vinyl sounds *better* than this digital stuff!
20:56:47ZincAlloyit can sound quite nice
20:57:08ZincAlloybut it takes a lot of effort to play it back nicely
20:57:13 Join tchan [0] (~tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan)
20:57:49ZincAlloydigital is so much cheaper :D
20:59:22bertrikif audio ever goes to 24 bits, there will be people missing the sweet quantisation noise of 16-bit
20:59:57ZincAlloynot with today's mastering habits :D
21:01:33 Join K1773R [0] (~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r)
21:06:52ZincAlloybut then again who needs 24bits of brickwalled audio?
21:14:46dfkt_i always listen at 130db, i need *at least* 24bit
21:16:06copperZincAlloy: seriously though, I think a vinyl DSP could be moderately popular!
21:16:12ZincAlloyjust keep listenig at deafing levels and the problem will solve itself
21:16:31ZincAlloycopper: sure!
21:18:37 Quit rela (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:25:26lebelliumj'ouvre une St Feuillien à la vôtre
21:25:58lebelliumjust the wrong channel, after all
21:26:03coppertoo late
21:26:10coppernow we know you're drunk (or you soon will be)
21:47:23amayercopper: what editor do you use when making rockbox themes?
21:48:20copperWhat Else?™
21:48:53lebelliumnotepad++, what else?
21:50:33copperThat's not what George Clooney would use.
21:54:38amayercopper: haha ok
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