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#rockbox log for 2014-03-30

00:04:19 Quit ender` (Quit: Connection Reset by an Idiot with a Backhoe)
00:18:58dfkt_hmm, getting ata -80 and -11 errors with the official bootloader, and the one from the cf page doesn't do anything useful
00:20:23dfkt_might be my 50-pin adapter and/or the cf card i tried
00:20:40dfkt_(which both work fine in the x5)
00:40:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:16:04[Saint]A port to the Pono would be weird.
03:16:27[Saint]We would, technically speaking, make it *worse*, not better.
03:16:44[Saint]From the viewpoint of "more bits == good".
03:17:33[Saint]I really don't think anoyone is going to spend $400 USD on a Pono to Rockbox it and lose the main features it touts.
03:17:37[Saint]maraz: ^
03:19:31bertrikI thought dedicated music players were on their way out, and now someone tries to sell one for $400, right ...
03:19:32ZincAlloy24 bit playback would make rockbox a great alternative to pono on targets with the right hardware
03:19:36[Saint]The entire selling point for the device is an audio library we'd be incapable of playing.
03:20:02[Saint](without downsampling it into oblivion)
03:20:36[Saint]The whole thing is a wretchedly shit idea and Neil Young deserves a punch in the face.
03:20:40[Saint]He should know better.
03:20:55ZincAlloytwo styles of players are surviving: cheap ones for kids or sports and other situations you wouldn't want to use your smartphone for - and audiophile stuff
03:21:44bertrikZincAlloy: yes, I think I agree
03:22:05[Saint]I agree with that, yes.
03:22:19[Saint]The cheap SanDisk happy meal toys still sell.
03:22:30ZincAlloyand they're pretty awesome
03:22:30[Saint]iPods are losing massive ground.
03:22:54ZincAlloywhy would I need an ipod? my music collection fits on a microsd card
03:23:13[Saint]No everyone has so little music. ;)
03:23:21ZincAlloyand the capacities of those are getting quite good
03:23:27[Saint]Call me when there are 2TB sdcards, and we'll talk. :)
03:23:40ZincAlloyyou have a 2TB disk in your ipod?
03:23:56[Saint]No. 512GB.
03:24:13ZincAlloythat's quite something
03:24:49ZincAlloyafter carrying that huge brick of a h340 around with me for nearly a decade I decided to go for something smaller and got a clip zip :D
03:25:14[Saint]I would be changing out my music every few days with that.
03:25:15ZincAlloypeople were giving me funny looks the last couple of years
03:25:36[Saint]That's one of the reasons I use my phone and a bunch of Google Music accounts.
03:25:45[Saint](they have a 20K track limit per account)
03:25:51ZincAlloyIf I had 512gb of space I'd rerip my music lossless
03:26:09 Quit bertrik (Remote host closed the connection)
03:26:39[Saint]I did find out, though, hilariously, that there doesn't seem to be a limit on the track *length*.
03:26:41ZincAlloyyour music collection must be quite impressive
03:26:51ZincAlloyah, yeah, I remember
03:27:35[Saint]I have a lot of audio I haven't had time to listen to. Even while creating playlists out of "Never Played" tracks.
03:27:52ZincAlloyI see
03:28:31[Saint]I have slowed down buying music since a while, but it will take many years for me to be able to make a reasonable dent in my collection.
03:28:52[Saint]Most of it is "pop" stuff from Ms. [Saint] that makes me want to kill myself.
03:29:38ZincAlloyyou need to create a suicide playlist..
03:30:45[Saint]Anyway - yeah. Unless we start to support "ridiculous" quality audio, I really doubt a Pono port in the future.
03:33:16[Saint]Even if we did, I suspect the 2 people that buy them (and the one that finds Rockbox) would quickly discover that they've been scammed and murder Neil Young.
03:33:23ZincAlloythe bit depth is the problem, isn't it? ridiculous sampling rates could be handled from what I've read here
03:33:51[Saint]24 bit is /possible/, but problematic.
03:34:29ZincAlloy24bit is not that crazy. 24bit media like DVD audio has been out there for ages.
03:34:40[Saint]Add to that the fact that it would make virtually no real difference whatsoever and I guess that's why we don't do it already.
03:35:18ZincAlloyright :)
03:35:20[Saint]A reasonable amount of work for almost purely immeasurable and subjective gain.
03:35:46[Saint]16/48 is fine.
03:37:57ZincAlloymore would be fine, too. there are some audiophile music shops that offer nicely mastered music in ridiculous quality. It sure would be nice if rockbox could play that stuff without converting it first, if the hardware can handle it
03:38:02cmhobbsso what's pono? are they introducing a new audio format?
03:38:16ZincAlloynope, it's all about flac
03:38:21[Saint]No. Though they claim to.
03:38:25cmhobbsrokbox supports flac, no?
03:38:31[Saint]It does indeed.
03:38:53ZincAlloyyes, but not the crazy sampling rates that pono allows
03:39:06[Saint]I would guess these guys are going to go out of their way to protect their content, though.
03:39:23[Saint]So it would not surprise me at all if a Pono file didn't "just work" in other players.
03:39:26ZincAlloyyeah, it comes with a software to sync stuff
03:39:45[Saint]IFF you could even get it off the device.
03:39:51[Saint]I doubt they'll make that easy.
03:40:20ZincAlloyI think copy protection for audio is dead
03:40:35[Saint]s/for audio///
03:40:50ZincAlloyit kept being a pain in the ass of paying customers
03:40:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:41:30[Saint]The industry has been shown time and time again that people just *don't* (generally speaking) want to pay for their content.
03:41:36[Saint]They should learn.
03:41:58[Saint]DRM for the few that do isn't the answer.
03:42:11ZincAlloyyeah, they should stop providing content :D
04:05:28*[Saint] still can't read "DVD-A" without laughing.
04:11:03ZincAlloyOrgazmo was a fun movie..
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04:27:57saratogawe actually do support 24 bit playback, we've just never had a portable device that actually had the required hardware
04:28:06saratogawell that and its kind of stupid
04:28:44saratogaif theres an app target where it made sense it would be simple to enable
04:29:04[Saint]It likely makes sense in Android, if it doesn't hurt binsize or anything else.
04:29:09saratogathe audio is all 32 bit right up until its handed off to the audio driver or underlying OS, so just hand it 24 bit
04:29:30[Saint]Hmmm...I thought there was more to it than that.
04:29:34[Saint]Glad you piped up.
04:29:52saratogathe last step of the DSP engine just converts to whatever output format is used, which in current devices is 16
04:29:58saratogabut it could be anything
04:34:19[Saint]Pretty sure most, if not all, of my phones can do 24/196
04:34:41[Saint]Samsung has a history of using nice audio HW and then crippling the shit out of it.
04:35:52[Saint]Once you turn off all the unnecessary amplifier bullshittery, they can sound rather nice.
04:36:35[Saint]I don't advise people go fishing around in the developer options, however. Rather easy to brick/fry/explode componentry there/
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05:03:09saratogamost devices will take 24 bit input, but usually the output is no different than 16 bit
05:03:40[Saint]but...but...lbut...those bits!
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07:28:27Misanthroposac l
07:34:35Misanthroposye... just started using bitlbee - it makes sense there :D
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14:32:07copperFS #12966
14:32:33copper"Display '+' sign in %rg value as per Replaygain specs "
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19:41:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:47:41Songs0fFailurehm. probably Ponoplayer based on TI OMAP35xx, dac - ESS ES9018
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20:15:21copperit's an unpockettable DAP
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20:38:44saratogaanyone have a relatively fast MP3 player available like a Fuze+ ?
20:39:17saratogacurious if this album art is displayed: (it is in the sim and probably app targets)
20:40:27gevaertssaratoga: I noticed a while ago that we don't seem to deal well at all with album art that's bigger than the audio buffer
20:40:46saratogaso something like a fuze+ will probably decode it?
20:41:00gevaertsI'd assume so, yes
20:41:16saratogai'm surprised that this is a problem, we support enormous flac files out of tiny buffers just fine
20:41:44gevaertsIt's an AA-specific issue
20:41:57saratogabut it uses the same buffering code right?
20:42:07gevaertsYes and no
20:42:55gevaertsIt's been a while since I looked, and I didn't look very deeply, but IIRC the AA code wants one chunk of memory with everything in it
20:43:51gevaertsAs far as I know there's no good reason for that
20:43:54saratogai thought it read one line of JPEG blocks at a time?
20:44:05saratogaso it needed 8xwidth pixels worth of jpeg
20:44:08gevaertsThat's when I got confused :)
20:44:39saratogaUnhelpful: feel like chiming in?
20:46:05gevaertssaratoga: for the record, that image loads fine (after a while...) in the WPS on my ipod video
20:46:25saratogaa much slower CPU, but more RAM, so i guess it is a buffering problem
20:47:55coppermore RAM than what?
20:48:01saratogaClip Zip
20:48:48saratogaI wonder if this is something that broke later
20:50:12saratogaalthough when resizing was added none of the stable color targets had so little memory, so maybe it was never tested
20:50:58gevaertsNot unlikely
20:51:08gevaertsWhen I tested it, it was with a ridiculously large image
20:51:24saratogai remember in that era, rockbox in general was pretty unstable with low memory targets due to bugs in buffering
20:53:27gevaertsHmmm, wait. I don't remember what I was actually testing then. It might have been embedded AA, where the jpeg data in the tag is expected to be all in RAM
20:56:37saratogathe sims all load it, but i guess they don't have the same memory limits
20:57:37saratogayeah the sim just does a 6MB alloc when i open that file
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21:02:55gevaertssaratoga: it looks like opening the file in buffering.c (from bufopen()) sets can_wrap to 0
21:03:00gevaertsNot sure what that implies
21:03:55gevaertsHmmm, it sets alloc_all to false too, so that should be fine I think
21:04:11*gevaerts isn't familiar with this code at all
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21:42:58dfktthe x5 has some weird behavior that none of my other rockboxed players show - while rew/ffwd in a track, it continues to play audio (but does actually rew/ffwd at the same time)
21:43:34dfktthought that might have something to do with being an old, weak player.. but now i got a h300 too, and this one is silent during ffwd/rew
21:44:07dfktit's mildly irritating during rewind - any idea what could cause that?
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22:01:27[Saint]dfkt: Odd...
22:01:32[Saint]Unwanted scrubbing.
22:01:51[Saint]Yay for (possibly accidental, since nothing else seems to do this) features!
22:02:09 Quit rudi_s (Quit: leaving)
22:02:14[Saint]As far as I understand the playback stuffs, that shouldn't be possible.
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22:07:24dfktnot the first time i hear 'impossible' ;)
22:08:20dfktbut yeah, it's x5-only - clip/clip+/zip, h300, raaa, don't do it
22:09:58[Saint]I have never encountered it before.
22:10:12[Saint]As far as I knew, while seeking, playback wasn't actually possible.
22:10:32dfktmaybe something about the buffer?
22:11:17[Saint]I can't even begin to think how that would work with the buffering system in place.
22:11:40[Saint]Out of interest, what happens when you try to seek through a track that is partially outside of the buffer?
22:11:49[Saint]I would expect that to fall over.
22:12:04dfktaudio playback stops after some seconds while ffwd/rew'ing
22:12:25[Saint]Likely when the buffer is depleted. Indeed.
22:13:58dfktif it indeed were scrubbing, or cd-player like skipping, it would be nice, indeed :)
22:14:23dfktbut just normal playback is weird
22:14:31[Saint]How so?
22:15:18dfkti just mean, the way cd players give you a sense of position while ffwd/rew, with chopped bits of audio, makes sense
22:15:47dfktbut rewinding, and getting normal continuous playback for 5-10 seconds, does not
22:16:00dfktthat was just re: <[Saint]> Unwanted scrubbing.
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22:38:56kugelgevaerts: albumart is loaded at bufopen() time (foreground) unlike other data which is loaded in the backgroun by the buffering thread
22:41:36kugelthe allocated buffer is sized for the resized image, after loaded (during load all of the remaining unwrapped buffer is used)
22:41:56 Join Alf_ [0] (
22:42:29[Saint]Ohhhh. A kugel.
22:43:01[Saint]kugel: WHat would I need to do to get some actual meaningful logs regarding RaaA on Android?
22:43:04kugelthat means the size of the original image shouldnt matter much (if at all)
22:43:23[Saint]logcat shows absolutely *nothing*, but I can repeatably make RaaA fall over.
22:43:34[Saint](noting RaaA-relevant, that is)
22:43:48kugelcompile a DEBUG build, that enables DEBUGF() to logcat
22:43:58[Saint]I'm getting rather annoyed by it. I want to be able to use RaaA so bad.
22:44:17[Saint]ANd I understand you see no issue, so, yeah.
22:44:22Alf_Hey guys. I'm having an issue with Rockbox on my Sansa Clip Zip. I'm getting a bad checksum error on startup and I can't get my computer to recognise the device. Any suggestions?
22:44:57[Saint]Alf_: not in the original FW or Rockbox?
22:45:03[Saint](remember we dual-boot)
22:45:33[Saint]If you can't mount using the original FW...we can't really help.
22:45:44[Saint]If you can. Great. Problem solved.
22:45:52Alf_neither one. When I boot Rockbox and get to the 'connect usb cable' screen and plug it in, I get the 'device connected' sound but nothing further.
22:46:12[Saint]Kinda sounds like the host may be the issue.
22:46:16Alf_When I try to boot into the original FW it hangs on the splash screen and connection gives nothing at all.
22:46:29[Saint]Have you tried the obvious things? Different port, different cable, different machine?
22:46:37[Saint]Oh. Oh dear.
22:46:38kugelI think debugf() (lower case) logs to logcat even in non-DEBUG builds, but not sure
22:46:41[Saint]That's not good at all.
22:46:42Alf_yes to all 3
22:47:17[Saint]kugel: I can see some RaaA-isms in logcat. But nothing relevant to the messed up states I can get it into.
22:47:31[Saint]Alf_: That's, yeah, that's really not good.
22:47:45Alf_occasionally original FW boot gets through to 'rebuilding media library' but restarts before it finishes
22:47:53kugelcompiling a DEBUG build should make it a lot more verbose
22:48:02[Saint]kugel: thankyou.
22:48:27[Saint]kugel: for reference, I'm chasing the "black screen on waking RaaA from background during playback" bug.
22:48:41[Saint]It seems to be related to skipping while backgrouned.
22:48:41kugelhave you found a recipe?
22:49:21[Saint]If I background RaaA and then skip a bunch of times, then wake it up with either the widget or the notification, black screen.
22:49:35[Saint]Yet playback continues. RaaA must then be force killed.
22:49:58Alf_also something pops up in device manager with rockbox boot, just a usb mass storage device with the error message 'This device cannot start. (Code 10)'
22:50:13kugel[Saint]: another thing that would be helpful is the stack trace in that situation, I think you can get this with ddms (part of the sdk)
22:50:24[Saint]The obvious sign it has fallen over is when the notification or widget displays a completely different track to the one currently being played.
22:50:33kugel(ddms allows inspecting threads of running apps)
22:50:44[Saint]I believe pixelma also experiences this exact issue.
22:50:50[Saint]Possibly also AlexP
22:51:00[Saint](sorry for ping guys, chime in when you can)
22:51:20kugelI also experience this from time to time but i found a way to reproduce it
22:51:50[Saint]Is that a typo? Found a way, or didn;t find a way?
22:52:40[Saint]Right. Out of interest, what OS version is this in your case?
22:52:51[Saint]I never saw this until official kitkat.
22:53:09[Saint]Whereas pixelma sees it in ICS iirc.
22:53:19[Saint](where I did not)
22:55:28kugeli've experienced it on all android versions
22:55:42kugelcan't say one is particularly worse that others
22:56:03[Saint]Thanks for the input. I shall keep trying.
22:56:14[Saint]First stop, debug build.
22:57:49Alf_Saint: have I managed to brick my device or is there still something I can try?
23:01:14[Saint]Alf_: Without either firmware mounting/booting, I'm not sure what you could do.
23:03:26Alf_That's what I was afraid of. The strange thing is that it worked just fine for a couple weeks, and then suddenly I started getting that 'bad checksum', so presumably I managed to corrupt the firmware somehow, but I have no idea what could have caused that.
23:05:17Alf_Been reading about recovery mode. If I managed to pry open the device, do you think that might help?
23:08:15[Saint]It may. But at this stage I'm suspecting the internal storage may have died.
23:08:22[Saint]Or, is dying.
23:08:53[Saint]Well...put it this way. You can't really make it any less useful than it is now.
23:09:18Alf_thats true. Well, the splash screen makes for a pretty luminescent paperweight at the moment.
23:09:31[Saint]But if you're inexperienced with delicate teardowns of electronics, I suspect this may only serve to piss you off more.
23:09:37Alf_Internal storage dying: that would be a hardware issue?
23:09:44[Saint]It would indeed.
23:10:41Alf_I've taken apart (and reassembled) a few electronics before, so that should be alright. I also have an older Sansa Clip+ with a dead headphone jack. I'm wondering if I could somehow splice the two together to get one working player.
23:11:35Alf_though looking at the innards of the clip+, I'm not sure I've got the fine soldering skills for that...
23:12:10Alf_Oh well. Thanks for your help, I'll keep at it.
23:12:14[Saint]The only real issue is with re-assembly.
23:12:28[Saint]These things definitely were not meant to be assembled by hand.
23:12:48[Saint]The ZIF ribbon for the buttons is a *really* precise fit.
23:13:00[Saint]It involves snaking in there with insulated tweezers.
23:13:20[Saint]If its not places exactly right, the buttons won't function, or will function partially or eratically.
23:13:52[Saint]And there's a reasonable amount of play in the ZIF header that allows you to mess it up very easily.
23:14:12Alf_That does sound like a hassle. Presumable the internal storage is fully integrated into the main PCB and replacing it is out of the question?
23:14:19[Saint]And unfortunately its almost impossible to test it without putting the thing back together.
23:14:28[Saint]So, if you get it wrong you've got to disassemble again.
23:14:33[Saint]Its rather nightmarish.
23:15:09saratogayou can also try the bootloader USB mode by holding select then inserting USB with the power off
23:15:22[Saint]Replacing the internal storage is /possible/, if you have the right tools (graduated reflow station would be great), but prohibitively expensive and time consuming.
23:15:31[Saint]These things are pretty much Happy Meal toys.
23:15:37Alf_for 30 bucks I'll just buy a new one i guess
23:15:39[Saint]Essentially disposable. Low cost.
23:16:09Alf_saratoga: you mean the silver button in the middle? hold that while inserting the USB cable?
23:16:10[Saint]saratoga: with a bad checksum bootloader USb should automagically start up.
23:16:31[Saint]OP mentioned it displayed the "Plug USB" prompt.
23:16:36[Saint]Which is indeed bootloader USB.
23:16:42Alf_yeah, that's what shows up.
23:16:59[Saint]Right. That's the bootloader trying to let you save the device.
23:17:09[Saint]But when it won't mount...well, this.
23:17:17 Quit bertrik (Remote host closed the connection)
23:17:26 Join ZincAlloy [0] (
23:17:33Alf_Valiant effort on the bootloader's behalf, but I guess it's hopeless.
23:18:39[Saint]Do you have an sdcard in the device? I wonder if on one of the occasions when it does manage to boot if removing the sdcard may help with refreshing the database.
23:18:43[Saint]Worth a shot.
23:19:11Alf_I tried that, but it didn't make a difference unfortunately.
23:19:15[Saint]Does the Zip even have sd? I forget.
23:19:19[Saint]AH. Bums.
23:19:31 Join Misanthropos [0] (
23:19:33[Saint]Sorry dude. I'm officially out of suggestions.
23:19:36Alf_I'll run the battery down a few more times and try to get it to boot into the original FW and get to the 'rebuilding media library' stage (seems to happen with a low battery) and see if I can get that finished, otherwise I'll add it to the electronics graveyard.
23:19:43Alf_Thanks a lot for your help.
23:19:53Alf_I guess that's what I get for buying refurb electronics.
23:21:40 Quit Alf_ (Quit: Thanks)
23:33:26 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 29.0/20140327113732])
23:40:43 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
23:41:14***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"

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