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#rockbox log for 2014-05-01

00:00:03 Quit amizraa4 (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
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00:02:51 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:04:04 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
00:06:32[Saint]Klarion: as soon as you involve a PC, you may as well cut Rockbox out of the picture entirely, its unnecessary.
00:07:09[Saint]...however, we have been thinking for a few years solid that we need a plot visualization for the parametric EQ.
00:07:14[Saint]On device, though.
00:07:42Klarionbut how would you do that on Clip+ for example?
00:07:48gevaerts[Saint]: you presumably only use the PC while tweaking the EQ
00:08:08Klarionwith such small screen
00:08:34[Saint]We manage to display the EQ there, a plot wouldn;t be any different.
00:08:44[Saint]screens scroll.
00:09:10Klarionbut wouldn't it be easier to have a big image on PC? much better view
00:09:11 Quit us`0gb (Quit:
00:09:48[Saint]Possibly, but, when you involve a PC you may as well just use it to equalize your IEMS and not involve Rockbox at all...
00:10:33Klarionwell, you see, not every mp3 player and PC will have equal freq. response.
00:10:45alexbobp17:06:34 < [Saint]> Klarion: as soon as you involve a PC, you may as well cut Rockbox out of the picture entirely, its unnecessary.
00:10:59alexbobprockbox already has a feature that precoputes stuff on the pc
00:11:03alexbobptext to speech for track names
00:11:45alexbobpand Klarion is right, you need to at least be using the audio jack on the actual player for testing an eq setting
00:12:24[Saint]I don't think he's *right*, but, there's a point to be made there.
00:12:35alexbobpwell he's right on that specific point
00:12:41[Saint]I'm also not terribly certain that the voice case aligns with this too well, but, hey.
00:12:43alexbobpon the broader question, I think this could all be done without the pc at all
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00:13:32[Saint]But, anyway, yes. We've been musing about adding a real time plot to the EQ for a few years.
00:13:39[Saint]Mr. Someone hasn;t done it, though.
00:14:04Klarionit would be a lot easier to make just an image same for every player that you can only view on PC. In comparison to making different images for every player, cuz every player has different screen
00:14:21 Quit petur (Remote host closed the connection)
00:14:46[Saint]Patches welcome.
00:15:51alexbobpKlarion: rockbox already has themes, which involve making a bunch of images for every player :P
00:16:51[Saint]I think part of the "problem" here is that most people that care about this are already quite capable of equalizing their IEMs without such a feature.
00:17:28alexbobphehe probably :P
00:17:37alexbobpthat's why the feature never occured to me I guess
00:17:39KlarionIt would just be faster and easier with graph.
00:17:58alexbobpwell I think we can conclude that we all agree it would be a nice feature
00:18:06alexbobpbut someone has to code it and [Saint] doesn't think it's a high priority :P
00:18:23[Saint]Someone might.
00:19:04[Saint]To be honest, though, the reason for adding this wouldn;t revolve around power users.
00:19:07alexbobp[Saint] saying he doesn't consider it a huge priority is not the same as shooting it down as out of scope or a bad idea
00:19:19[Saint]It would be to get Joe Average to actually understand how to use a parametric EQ.
00:20:03[Saint]That's where I would see a realtime plot being particularly useful.
00:20:12gevaerts[Saint]: how many people do you know who master a parametric EQ without help?
00:20:12alexbobpI would have to agree that making this thing where it renders on the PC would be more work and have little benefit
00:20:17alexbobpI don't think it takes a lot of pixels
00:20:45 Quit mc2739 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:21:04Klarionummm, more work to make just one universal image than coding it for every player and every screen?
00:21:12alexbobpbut it wouldn't be an *image*
00:21:16alexbobpit would be a rendered plot :P
00:21:21[Saint]^ this
00:21:24alexbobpand one piece of code can just look up what pixel area it has access to, and render to that
00:21:38[Saint]^ very this.
00:21:47alexbobpthe conway's game of life app also does not have a different bitmap for each device >_>
00:21:50*alexbobp ducks
00:22:05[Saint]alexbobp: But, hey, that's life. ;)
00:22:10*[Saint] puts on his shades
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00:31:35 Quit ender` (Quit: Live your Life in such a way that the Westboro Baptist Church will want to picket your funeral.)
00:51:04 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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01:10:22Klariondoes ReplayGain stop clipping automatically in most of the songs?
01:11:24Klarionor does Prevent Clipping need to be ON to stop any track from clipping?
01:14:07Klarionif I use MP3gain on a track that's clipping it will not clip anymore in most cases, is it same with ReplayGain?
01:21:33 Quit michaelni_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
01:37:28 Quit Misanthropos (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:41:07[Saint]Klarion: Uuuuuugggghhhh...don't use mp3gain.
01:41:16[Saint]Its really really stupid.
01:41:52[Saint]Use replaygain, which is A: doesn't modify the files beyond metadata, and B: is reversible.
01:42:20[Saint]And, to answer your question, replaygain with a suitable precut should be entirely sufficient.
01:43:36[Saint]I feel like I shouldn;t need to say this, but, people often surprise me - remember replaygain is completely useless without having first scanned the tracks and adding track/album gain tags.
01:44:14[Saint](you might laugh at that, but a lot of people have no idea of this and will swear that it works despite not actually having any replaygain metadata)
01:44:30[Saint](it doesn't. ;))
01:44:33 Quit amizraa (Remote host closed the connection)
01:45:17KlarionI think mp3gain is reversible and I'm not sure about quality loss in mp3gain. I didn't see anything to confirm that
01:45:34[Saint]As far as I see it there's only one valid use for mp3gain, and even then "valid" is debatable.
01:46:04[Saint]Its only for cases where there's no replaygain, and I would suggest in today's day and age to just stop using said product.
01:46:19 Join amizraa [0] (~amizraa@gateway/tor-sasl/amizraa)
01:47:12KlarionI was asking because, example: I use mp3gain -track gain- on a song that's clipping - as a result it doesn't clip anymore. So, I was asking is it the same with ReplayGain(or does it only lower the volume and you have to enable Prevent Clipping in RB)
01:47:46[Saint]Use a suitable precut and it shouldn;t be an issue.
01:47:56Klarionprecut or preamp?
01:48:10KlarionI'm not using any precut
01:48:33[Saint]Errr, sorry, pre-amp, yes.
01:48:51KlarionI would but I don't have enough volume
01:49:23[Saint]-6dB is a general "go-to" default that will work for pretty much evryone in a wide range of situations.
01:50:14[Saint]It sounds like you're in desperate need of a personal amplifier.
01:51:13Klarionthat's one solution
01:51:22[Saint]If line level (-6dB pre-amp, lets say), is too quiet, you're either deaf or should invest in new hardware.
01:51:54Klarionthat's true, with eq off
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01:53:03[Saint]Any difference made in the EQ should be able to be compensated for.
01:53:59KlarionI lowered all frequencies for about 10db except for 10.5 khz to equalize it. I have this huge dip at that frequency
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01:55:25Klarionand another problem is that I hear a small hiss in my headphones when I'm at 7db to 0db volume level
01:55:31 Quit JdGordon (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
01:55:37Klarionit's loudest at 0db
01:55:54Klarionguess they're too sensitive or something
01:57:21[Saint]Pretty much all my problems in this department were thrown out the window with the purchase of a set of UE 18 Pro's.
01:58:10[Saint]I tried to make do with consumer grade hardware and adjusting for their downfalls in software, but it got very tedious.
01:58:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:59:04[Saint]It was a ridiculously expensive purchase, but its well worth the cost. I would happily send anyone I know to UE to give them their money.
01:59:12[Saint]Well recommended.
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02:01:10KlarionI don't know, I think dual driver is enough, why would you need 6 drivers in each ear...
02:04:11KlarionI meant dual driver per ear
02:06:12[Saint]If you're in the US, UE has some generic reference drivers you can try out.
02:06:32[Saint]If you're not in the US, its a ~$1200 gamble.
02:06:45[Saint]But, its well worth it, IMO.
02:07:04[Saint]I find it hard to imagine life without mine now.
02:08:05[Saint]The difference between custom molded monitors of this quality and generic monitors is like night and day.
02:12:26[Saint]I'm by no means an "audiophile", by the way.
02:12:53alexbobpyou have to insist that you can distinguish flac from wav first
02:13:18[Saint]I made a very bad investment in some Sennheiser IE8's, and then decided to "do it right" after a conversation with another user who went full-custom not long before.
02:13:32KlarionI don't believe in customs
02:13:46Klarioncustom IEMs
02:14:02[Saint]In Ear Monitor
02:14:05KlarionI think any triple BA can be equally good
02:14:14[Saint]Hahahahaha....yeah, no.
02:14:21[Saint]Just, no.
02:14:31alexbobpis that what audiophiles have to call their earbuds?
02:14:51alexbobpI see
02:14:53alexbobpmy earbuds cost $5
02:14:56*alexbobp hides
02:14:58alexbobpI mean my IEMs
02:15:03Klarionnot gonna talk to you anymore
02:15:27*alexbobp cries in the corner
02:15:53alexbobpok but seriously what does it mean to have custom IEMs?
02:16:01alexbobpcustom per person?
02:16:10Klarionit means they mold them specially for your ear shape I think
02:16:52alexbobpoh haha
02:16:55alexbobpthat sounds like it must cost a lot
02:17:01alexbobpI buy cheap earbuds because I break them >_>
02:18:17[Saint]Close on ~$1300 after audiologist appointments and a few rounds of shipping an odd sized, very fragile, box to the US a couple of times.
02:20:57 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:21:05Klarionyou go to audiologist for what?
02:23:47[Saint]Well, they can't just *guess* the shape of your inner ear...
02:24:31alexbobpoh jesus
02:24:33KlarionI thought you have to do some hearing testing as well...
02:24:49alexbobpI don't want inner ear buds
02:24:53alexbobpthose are weird for me
02:24:56Klarionthey're great
02:24:57alexbobpI like the ones that hang on the outer part
02:25:03alexbobpand don't muffle sounds around me
02:25:10alexbobpbecause I wear my earbuds all freaking day pretty much :P
02:25:23alexbobpat work I just pause my shit but my hair covers my ears so nobody has to know I have earbuds in when they talk to me :P
02:25:56Klarionbut I can get an awesome seal with my generic IEM's, don't need customs for good seal or fit
02:26:16Klarionjust a matter of finding a good ear-tips
02:26:43alexbobp[Saint]: any advice for good earbuds that won't remind me of yeerks?
02:27:50Klarionalexbobp: what is your DAP of choice?
02:28:33alexbobpthe cheapie sandisk players. my favorite ever was the fuze with the clicky wheel.
02:28:47alexbobpthough the sansa view will be even better if that port happens :P
02:29:05alexbobpmostly I just use the latest littler one, clip zip
02:29:15KlarionI love my fuze v2
02:29:25alexbobpI really miss their hold switches but the older clips with hold switches don't have microsd card slots so that's no good
02:29:33alexbobpKlarion: nice :D yeah, you have my DAP of choice then
02:29:41[Saint]iPod Video 5.5G with the "thin" (30GB) backplate and a 256GB SSD.
02:30:00[Saint](and a huge battery from a cordless phone)
02:30:02alexbobpjesus, haha
02:30:10alexbobpseems like overkill :D
02:30:53alexbobpone of my best things about the clip zip and the other tiny sandisk players.... you'll think I'm a horrible person to my machines... is that if they fall they just dangle from the audio cable and don't even fall off
02:31:22Klarionyou two are complete opposite when it comes to
02:31:25[Saint]I've got a couple of iPod Classic (6/7G) as well, one of which is SSD converted, but I like my Video.
02:31:44Klarionportable audio that is
02:31:46alexbobpI wouldn't exactly say so
02:31:52[Saint]I have an iPod Color with a smaller SSD, microUSB charging, and embedded BlueTooth as well.
02:31:58[Saint]But she's been retired.
02:31:59alexbobpI wouldn't mind better quality earbuds
02:32:05alexbobpI Just don't know what to buy that I won't break
02:32:12*scorche|sh thinks that we should move this over to -community
02:32:19alexbobpoh that's fair
02:32:32alexbobponly if we can move Klarion though :P
02:32:42alexbobpKlarion: want to join #rockbox-community for extended shooting of the poop?
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03:24:05JdGordon[Saint]: your font pack zip on seems to be broken... osx doesnt recognise it as a zip?
03:35:29[Saint]I'll re-up, it seems lots of things hate 7zip
03:36:21[Saint]JdGordon: you can pull the individual fonts from
03:36:33[Saint](from memory the zip is a few hundred MB)
03:36:45Klarionhow does RB's Bass function work? When you lower it to -10 for example, which frequencies get lowered exactly?
03:37:31[Saint]IIRC, where possible, this uses the devices DAC.
03:38:04[Saint]SO I'm unsure if there's an easy, global, answer to that question.
03:38:23Klarionhmmm, ok
03:40:37KlarionBass is untill 250 Hz, right?
03:42:49Klarionso this chart is wrong?
03:45:28[Saint]Not necessarily /wrong/, as this is rather subjective I suppose.
03:46:06Klarionit is, yeah
03:46:10[Saint]As far as I am aware, "bass" runs from slightly above the threshold of human hearing (16~20MHz) to ~500MHz
03:46:33[Saint]Lets see if anyone agrees with me...
03:46:57[Saint]ooooh. Wikipedia agrees with me, and we all know the word of wikipedia is gospel. ;)
03:47:43[Saint]"32 to 5122nd to 5thRhythm frequencies, where the lower and upper bass notes lie."
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03:58:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:02:48*[Saint] needs to squeeze 4 pixels from ...somewhere.
05:03:07[Saint]I guess I should probably just give up on full width album art.
05:03:39[Saint]Sacrificing 480x480px to a static image presents quite some amount of problems.
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05:58:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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06:55:43scorche`forums will be down for a bit while i figure out how i am going to migrate it to the new plans my host is offering
06:55:55scorche`shouldnt be too long - waiting on a support ticket reply
07:00:39goomrockbox for ipod gen 6 (classic) is currently being worked on, right?
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07:41:01[Saint]goom: Not particularly, no.
07:41:12[Saint]Much like Rockbox in general.
07:41:19goomah ok
07:41:41[Saint]Its *very* functional, however.
07:41:44goomi've only got the 6. is the current version stable enough, or should i wait?
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07:41:56goomoh it is? what's missing?
07:41:59[Saint]Well, if you wait, you'll be waiting forever.
07:42:33[Saint]Its very unlikely it will receive support before this project eventually curls up and dies.
07:42:47 Join pixelma [0] (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
07:42:48[Saint](taking the current state of development into consideration)
07:42:48 Join amiconn [0] (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
07:42:51scorche`hey now!
07:43:44goomwas gen 6 harder to port than the previous versions?
07:43:58[Saint]Well, the developers of the bootloader don't seem to have much/any interest in making a slimmed down version that Rockbox would accept. Its a rather odd situation.
07:44:23[Saint]And, not particularly, to my knowledge.
07:44:41[Saint]The hard part was waiting for someone to come up with a usable exploit.
07:45:04[Saint]Regarding what's missing, very little.
07:45:11[Saint]IAP; dual-boot, and recording.
07:45:24[Saint](iPod Accessory Protocol)
07:46:44coppergoom: go for it
07:46:50copperit runs quite well now
07:47:15goomwell then, what's preventing it from being considered 'stable'?
07:47:33[Saint]The fact that there's no bootloader.
07:47:52[Saint]It relies on a third party bootloader.
07:48:20[Saint]So, /technically/, we don't offer any support for it.
07:48:21copper[Saint]: recording?
07:48:30[Saint]Because its impossible to install it.
07:48:33copperrecording what and how?
07:49:24[Saint]Note: it is possible to install it, just not in any official capacity
07:49:28goomand the bootloader hasn't been finished?
07:49:36[Saint]copper: line in, FM
07:49:39goomor won't be?
07:49:45[Saint]goom: there isn;t one.
07:50:05[Saint]The freemyipod project handles emCORE, the bootloader.
07:50:21[Saint]The two projects aren't connected (but share a common developer)
07:50:23goomah, i see
07:50:28copperthe iPod Classic has a line-in on the dock connector? Never knew!
07:50:32goomwell good to hear i'll still be able to use it
07:50:40[Saint]copper: all the iPods do
07:51:00[Saint]Oh, actually...possibly not the 1G?
07:51:19copperI don't even rememer seeing anything about recording in the OF
07:51:20[Saint]I'll change that "most of the iPods do, possibly all of them" ;)
07:51:32[Saint]The OF doesn;t offer recording, that's why.
07:51:49[Saint]Doesn't mean we can't.
07:51:49goomwell thanks anyways [Saint] :)
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07:52:22[Saint]goom: see -
07:52:37[Saint]This will walk you through the install
07:52:58[Saint]Come poke me on #freemyipod if you have any issues.
07:53:11[Saint]*#freemyipod-support I mean
07:53:52goomand freemyipod is relatively risk-free?
07:53:57goomi've heard the name before
07:55:42[Saint]The developers are incredibly capable humans.
07:55:48[Saint]Installation is totally risk free.
07:56:06[Saint]No matter what happens with the install, restoring with iTunes will recover the device.
07:56:20goomthough that will require me to actually open itunes :(
07:56:39[Saint]It *is* possible to brick these devices, but you need to be trying *very* hard.
07:56:48[Saint]The installation route presents no risk.
07:58:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:01:21goomalright i won't do anything stupid :)
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09:27:02[Saint]copper: around?
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09:34:04copper[Saint]: pong
09:36:32[Saint]There's no way to do "magic foreground color w/ alpha channel" is there?
09:39:57[Saint]Ohhhhh...I might have figured out a way to do it.
09:40:17[Saint]A bitmap image.
09:40:34copperI use an ARGB bitmap on top of a background color
09:42:13[Saint]I want to colorize the slider and progress bar, and the header/status bar main color with the color picker. I understand you have some experience with this?
09:42:21[Saint]Well, not this exactly. But, yeah.
09:42:35[Saint]My understanding is you've had some success in this field.
09:43:51copperI'm not sure it's possible if you have a backdrop image
09:44:19[Saint]In general, or for the bar?
09:44:28copperbut the idea is setting up a text viewport with just a single space character in it, and %Vb(-) %Vf(-) in it
09:44:39copperfor the top bar
09:44:43[Saint]If I could use a magic foreground color, I wouldn;t necessarily need a backdrop at all.
09:45:06copperfor the rest I set another viewport, same thing, just with a fixed color (white)
09:45:37copperand then you set up a viewport on top of the status bar viewport, also with %Vb(-) %Vf(-)
09:45:48copperfor text
09:45:54[Saint]draw order abuse?
09:46:08copperwell, I'm probably abusing _something_ :)
09:46:26[Saint]that's actually really bloody clever.
09:46:37copperI've tried a few things
09:46:43copperthat method worked best, by far
09:47:47copperthe "%Vb(-) %Vf(-)" bit is important to force default (user settable) colors while remaining independant of colors that you might want to set for, say, %Vi()
09:47:57[Saint]At the moment the backdrop just incorperates the top bar thing, and its "rockbox yellow", same as the bitmaps for the scrubber handle and progress bar.
09:48:16[Saint]But I thought it would be cool to be able to pick that color from the color picker.
09:51:16copperto be clear, the "bottom layer" viewport with the single space character is there to set a background color over an area that is larger than your text / icon viewports
09:52:25copperthe text / icon layers on top of it also set a background color, but since it's the same as the botton layer, it looks as if they're all a single element
09:52:29[Saint]Why does it need a space?
09:52:44copperbecause otherwise it doesn't draw the background color
09:52:55[Saint]Huh? Really?
09:53:22[Saint]I'll see if I can repro that at some stage and lodge it, unless you beat me to it.
09:53:29[Saint]That shouldn't be required.
09:54:55[Saint]I've met my old nemesis of not being able to align text on the vertical plane in a viewport
09:55:30copperit's strange, it doesn't seem like removing the space character is making a difference
09:56:07copperI could have sworn…
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09:57:43copperI even commented it in my code
09:58:21user890104copper: when does your googley theme show date and time in the title? i've seen it once, but don't remember which menu i was in
09:58:52copperuser890104: sbs, bottom bar, when nothing is playing
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09:59:08copperwhen playback is stopped (and FM radio stopped)
09:59:12user890104ah, i see
09:59:31coppersame for Basta, which is an evolution of Googley
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10:00:34user890104i prefer the battery in percent, so i use googley
10:00:55copperuser890104: you can use Basta and set the battery display to "numeric"
10:01:03copperin the theme settings
10:01:33copperTheme Settings → Status / Scrollbar → Battery Display
10:02:02coppergah, I need to put that in the theme description
10:02:10copperyou're not the first one to complain about that
10:02:22copperwell, not "complain" :)
10:03:07user890104uhm, it doesn't have icons
10:03:21user890104at least here
10:03:28copperyeah I know
10:03:39user890104i miss them :)
10:04:26[Saint]I told ya' ;)
10:04:34copperwha' evah'
10:06:25copperI hate icons about as much as people hate iTunes
10:06:44copperin this context, anyway
10:08:02user890104well, i'm used to having icons in front of the menu items
10:08:19user890104so i can tell the difference between the title of the screen and the actual items
10:08:37copperthe title of the screen is in the status bar, in my Basta theme
10:08:44copperas opposed to Googley
10:08:47user890104ah, missed that
10:10:30*user890104 wishes for a theme with almost no graphics, but literally crowded with all kinds of debugging info, like cpu usage, buffer usage, format/bitrate, disk space, battery consumption, etc.
10:12:28copperlike some hospital monitoring console? :D
10:12:45copperbip, bip, bip, bip… BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
10:13:15coppercode blue! code blue!
10:14:27[Saint]user890104: theme engine doesn't have access to the tasty bits of the OS.
10:14:46[Saint]It almost certainly could. But currently doesn't.
10:14:47user890104having some sliders similar to those in system-debug-view buffering thread would be nice
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11:44:58TheSevenis there someone interested in developing ipod classic rbutil integration?
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15:05:48copperFinally took the time to make a proper web page for my themes:
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19:38:03fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision fcb835f, 253 builds, 30 clients.
19:43:53fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 352 seconds.
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