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#rockbox log for 2014-05-11

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05:03:01*[Saint] seems to have assumed the job of "Freemyipod Rockbox support front man"
05:03:27 Join us`0gb [0] (
05:03:31[Saint]Its actually pretty bloody annoying that users just don't get that they shouldn't be coming to us for support.
05:03:49[Saint](AND that they don't seem to understand the nature of the port)
05:04:36[Saint]If they came to use for actual Rockbox prblems, I wouldn't mind.
05:04:48[Saint]But 99% of it is emCORE stuff.
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09:55:34copper03:03:49 UTC <[Saint]> (AND that they don't seem to understand the nature of the port)
09:55:59copperthe rockbox port statuses don't help with the confusion
09:56:29copperwith "unusable" being essentially meaningless wrt to the actual usability of the port
09:57:13copperthey see people using Rockbox on their Classic left and right, so what's "unusable" about it?
09:57:23copper(that's a rhetorical question)
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10:21:52copperand i guess they come to #rockbox because installing rockbox is the goal
10:22:04copper(and perhaps because #rockbox is more active?)
10:22:49copperthe reasoning being "I have trouble getting Rockbox to run, let's ask the Rockbox guys"
10:28:47[Saint]Many don't have an issue getting it to run.
10:28:53[Saint]They have issue installing it.
10:29:09[Saint]...and don't realize we're not reponsible for this.
10:29:36[Saint]...and take issue if I dare even suggest that they shouldn't be coming to us in the first place.
10:30:33[Saint]"How did you install it? Oh - with the third party, totally unsupported by us installer, and you want support - uhuh, I see"
10:33:20[Saint]I don't think the port staus hurts us in this instance.
10:33:29[Saint]All of them are perfectly accurate.
10:36:55copper03:03:01 UTC * [Saint] seems to have assumed the job of "Freemyipod Rockbox support front man"
10:37:05copperif you mind so much, don't provide support for it
10:37:34 Quit pystar89 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
10:40:53[Saint]I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. I don't mind offering the support, but its odd that they come to us, and slightly annoying that so many users bounce off the actual support channels.
10:40:55copperand if you, a Rockbox guy, has become the emcore support front man, then that confirms my hypothesis that #rockbox is more active than emcore
10:41:07copperit's not odd at all
10:41:14copperpeople aren't machines
10:41:29[Saint]That is mainly the problem of the head-fi's et al.
10:41:39[Saint]People aren't finding the project via freemyipod
10:41:46copperprobably not
10:41:52[Saint]some don't even know it exists.
10:43:22copperI remember going to #freemyipod-support the first time, but I don't remember if I went to #rockbox first and was redirected there
10:43:29[Saint]And when they find the forums, I feel a bit of a dick being all like "Yeah, I could help you, but I won't do it here, so go here and I will"
10:43:36copperand I'm hardly representative of "normal people"
10:43:39[Saint]I should likely just get over that I guess.
11:09:36 Nick SuperBrainAK is now known as DormantBrain (~andy@
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11:43:39TheSeven[Saint]: just write a rockbox bootloader for the classic then ;)
11:44:05TheSevenand get someone to do the rbutil integration work
11:44:07copperyes please!
11:44:47TheSevenactually, if someone takes care about the rockbox side of things, I might assist from the lowlevel side
11:45:19[Saint]I actually did look into carving the UI out of emCORE, but I decided that that absolutely wasn't the way to go about it and gave up.
11:45:28TheSevenas in writing the code that launches the rockbox bootloader from NOR flash, and the code that puts it there
11:45:40[Saint]I mostly just got lost in code that scared the almighty shit out of me, though.
11:45:50[Saint]Bits that didn't concern what I was looking at.
11:45:57TheSevenyou don't need to touch emcore at all
11:46:23[Saint]I thought it would be handy to leave the begugger in place.
11:46:30TheSevenwe just need the emcore loader, and patch it a bit to fire up a rockbox bootloader directly (I can take care of that)
11:46:32[Saint]man, I butchered that.
11:47:17TheSeventhe one thing that's blocking this currently is rockbox USB being broken in a way that windows doesn't like, and nobody knowing why
11:47:46[Saint]That, and, people with the time, motivation, and skill to do it.
11:47:52TheSevenI've tried to port over UMSboot's USB stack to rockbox, but the interface is very different so I had to write quite a bit of glue logic
11:47:52[Saint]No one seems to have the magic three.
11:48:29TheSevenI got it to compile and respond to a get device descriptor request, but then it locks up the ipod and I don't know where in the code that happens
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12:11:34TheSeven[Saint]: it isn't as difficult as you might think... the USB bug is the major problem
12:11:44TheSeventhen we "just" need someone to port this to the classic:;a=blob;f=bootloader/ipodnano2g.c;h=c5fa6e2e65805abda851102e608fe8108af96b6e;hb=refs/heads/master
12:12:31TheSevenit needs a few changes, such as adding bootloader USB, but that's just a matter of setting a few flags somewhere
12:12:40TheSeven(and remove OF booting support for now, unless we manage to fix that as a byproduct of the changes)
12:13:36TheSeventhen someone who knows the windows world and rbutil well should have a look at making it install a (working) DFU driver and using that to push a binary to the ipod
12:13:37[Saint]Its not something I've had a lot of inclination to work on as it would certainly feel to me as though it were making your work irrelevant.
12:13:43TheSevenI can take care of the rest
12:13:48[Saint]I shouldn;t look at it sentimentally, but I do.
12:14:14TheSeven[Saint]: that's a completely wrong point of view
12:14:20[Saint]I mean, lets face it, for 99.99% of those who use emCORE, its a bootloader.
12:14:24TheSevenwe'll still use emcore as a developer tool
12:14:39TheSevenand you'll help get us rid of 99% of support overhead
12:15:18[Saint]It is the wrong way to look at it, you're right - but I can't always ensure that my feelings are rational. ;)
12:15:56TheSevenyou have my full consent for getting rockbox rid of emcore, so just don't worry about that ;)
12:16:56[Saint]Its quite pleasing to hear that, as it did trouble me, and I was unsure about asking it in case you didn't feel so supportive of such a move.
12:17:00TheSevenwe'll still keep it available as an option, just like on the nano2g, just reduce the complexity for the average user who just doesn't need the flexibility
12:17:43[Saint]The shell/debugger would be bloody nice to keep, though...
12:18:19TheSeventhat's why I won't touch emcore. we should just build an alternative, which is fairly easy on the classic
12:19:24TheSeven(unlike on the nano for NOR boot, where I objected to that simply because it would have pulled a lot of unnecessary complexity into rockbox that couldn't have been handled easy, such as FTL recovery code, bootloader encryption/decryption, uninstallation, ...)
12:19:53[Saint]As far as RbUtil is concerned, that _should_ be bloody straightforward, unless there's other OS fuckery that gets triggered.
12:20:16[Saint]It should just be a case of "instruct user on envoking DFU mode; send magic commands"
12:20:30[Saint]In theory at least.
12:20:34TheSevenyou need to install the driver in between ;)
12:20:37TheSeventhat's the tricky part
12:20:44TheSevenespecially if itunes is installed on that machine
12:20:45[Saint]Ahhhh. Right. Yeah.
12:20:59[Saint]Zadig to the rescue.
12:21:12TheSevenyeah, but I'd like to get that integrated into rbutil
12:21:48TheSevenwhich shouldn't be too hard either, it's just that someone needs to figure out how all of that works
12:23:48TheSeveninstructing the user should get easier as well with the right tools: launch the DFU tool first, it tells you to press and hold menu+select until that message goes away
12:24:34TheSevenwe have a total of about 4 seconds for reacting to the device appearing on the bus and making the user release the buttons, that should be sufficient
12:24:53TheSevenwe just need to take care of itunes potentially attempting to put it into WTF mode
12:25:17[Saint]You'd think, but any situation that involves users and timing is bound to fall over.
12:25:20TheSeveneither by killing it beforehand, or by writing some payload that actually boot through WTF
12:25:31TheSevenI'm not sure if they ever fixed the pwnage bug in WTF
12:25:33[Saint]If only there was some form of "Hey, you, jump into DFU mode now" command.
12:25:45[Saint]...there likely is, but, hey, I doubt Apple will share.
12:25:53TheSeven[Saint]: if it falls over, just tell the user "hey, that was too late, try again"
12:26:06TheSevenI don't think there is one
12:26:22TheSeveneven for code that's running on the ipod it's quite tricky to get into DFU
12:26:57TheSeventhere are basically two options: corrupting the nor flash, or making a copy of the bootrom in SRAM and patching it up quite a bit before jumping into it
12:27:38[Saint]the former would be a reliable trigger, but not very nice - you can't back out of it.
12:27:51[Saint]exit install? too bad, restore.
12:28:08TheSevenactually it would be sufficient to upload WTF and RECOVERY
12:28:14TheSevenwhich shouldn't wipe the disk
12:28:32TheSeven(or upload a custom binary which just repairs the specific corruption that was applied)
12:29:10TheSevenanyway, we can't make use of that, because we need a code execution attack vector for that... and if we had that, we wouldn't need to use DFU in the first place
12:29:24TheSevenif only the notes exploit was still alive ;)
12:29:35*[Saint] stops typing a longer variant of that.
12:29:51[Saint]I relized after I pressed enter that we'd need execution fot that.
12:30:18TheSevenwell, we could of course try to find another OF vulnerability
12:30:34TheSevennow that we have disassemblies and everything it would be MUCH easier than the original exploit
12:31:00TheSevenit's probably even easier to implement the DFU variant though ;)
12:36:40TheSevenactually we could probably cherrypick quite a bit of the DFU windows interaction from various iphone jailbreaking tools
12:36:58TheSevenI think most of those rely on itunes being installed though
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19:55:43pamaurygevaerts: do you think it's ok if I include the source code of mi4code from MrH in our trunk ?
19:55:58gevaertsGood question :)
19:58:08fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 7b590a9, 253 builds, 30 clients.
20:04:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:04:20fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 371 seconds.
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