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#rockbox log for 2014-06-09

00:00:07[Saint](context: soap's proposal was to add a plain text file to govern the desired weighting of random folder advance)
00:00:14gevaerts[Saint]: well, those weighting files either are files, in which case dircache will know about them, or they're not, in which case dircache won't. In the latter case I'll need more details about what they are though
00:01:22[Saint]Errr...well, yes, it will know the files *exist*, but, not what to do with them, nor, IMO, should it.
00:02:06soapweighing of folders.
00:02:43soapit's random _folder_ advance. Proposal is for a tack-on to the existing system, not a whole cloth deal.
00:02:56gevaerts[Saint]: of course dircache doesn't know what to do with files...
00:03:37soapThe plugin which makes the directory list could do the weighing through simple multiplication of entries in the list, then.
00:03:48soapThen the weights would all be > 1 instead of less than 1.
00:03:56gevaertsYes. That would be the trivial solution
00:04:18soapso you'd set a "default weight", let's call it 10, and then weigh a folder you want to be 20% to a weight of 2
00:04:21gevaertsWell, the plugin could look at what the weights are and rebalance them to what it likes
00:04:42gevaertsBut not doing that is easier :)
00:05:32soapif the plugin did it there's no change to the core and no need to worry about where the weight file gets cached if it gets cached.
00:05:59[Saint]The problem arises when someone pipes up and says "I want this in regular, random playback too!"
00:06:10gevaerts[Saint]: then they get to implement it there
00:06:25gevaertsRandom folder advance has *nothing* at all to do with shuffle or things like that
00:07:37[Saint]Oh, sure. But to the casual observer, having weighting only in RFA would seem like a bloody odd descision.
00:08:06gevaertsRFA has always been the stepchild, so this would rebalance things a bit :)
00:08:41[Saint]And, there's the *other* other obvious extension...
00:08:49[Saint]I'm sure you know which, or can guess.
00:08:56[Saint]"weighting by rating"
00:09:16gevaertsSure. The RFA plugin can look at rating tags if you want :)
00:10:06[Saint]I do have a slight suspicion that very few people care a flying fudge about Rb's rating system - but some may.
00:10:58gevaertssoap: the way RFA works, I think the "have the popular directories more often in the .dat file" is the only reasonable way to do this without reimplementing all of RFA
00:11:38gevaerts[Saint]: anyway, the obvious thing to do is what we've always done. Explain to people that "shuffle" and "random play" are not the same thing :)
00:12:20[Saint]*pseudorandom play ;)
00:12:44gevaertsThat's a third thing!
00:12:54[Saint]If we're explaining potentially confusing things, we may as well pull out all the cards.
00:13:11gevaertsCard analogies work well to explain shuffling
00:13:59[Saint]And, technically, pseudorandom playback, I suppose.
00:14:43[Saint](in the "each card can be drawn exactly once, and then discarded" vein.)
00:15:58[Saint]Unless its blackjack, or poker, or the many other games that use multiple decks.
00:16:10*[Saint] analogied too hard
00:16:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:21:07gevaertssoap: for your particular case, do you usually want to make just a few albums less common, just a few more common, or quite a lot in all directions?
00:21:32gevaertsAlso, is having to edit a text file (on a computer, this isn't something to do in rockbox...) acceptable?
00:22:01[Saint]One could do it with the filename, rather than content, no?
00:22:14[Saint].weight_50 etc.
00:22:16*gevaerts isn't talking about those
00:22:28[Saint]Ahhh - then, whoops.
00:22:59gevaertsIt's just that right now, you can have the plugin look for directories, save the list to a text file, and import that list again
00:23:21gevaertsIf I read the code right, if in between those you duplicate some entries, you've "won"
00:23:38gevaertsThat's not a general solution by any means of course :)
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00:25:04[Saint]I had a cursory look and I wasn't sure that if you added duplicate entries atthat stage if they would be discarded or not.
00:25:32[Saint](browsing git on mobile sucks ass)
00:26:06gevaertsThat would be an "advanced" feature. RFA doesn't do advanced :)
00:26:22gevaertsAlso, it wouldn't actually *help* any use case, only hinder some
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01:45:08soapsorry I had to step away so abruptly
01:59:20 Join swimllamaswim [0] (185d1dc9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
01:59:28swimllamaswimHello, everyone
01:59:59swimllamaswimI need some help with my iPod classic 6g.
02:03:22soapgevaerts, In _MY_ case I think making about 25% of my collection less common is the end goal.
02:03:43soapediting a text file is quite acceptable, and I think I see where you're going.
02:07:19TheSevenswimllamaswim: please just ask whatever question you have
02:08:39swimllamaswimWhen I open rockbox, I have to disconnect my ipod to do anything. It says (Not Responding). When I open the dialogue box to select my mountpoint and device, no mountpoints are shown. Not even C:\
02:09:48TheSevenyou mean that explorer doesn't show any drives as long as your ipod is connected and running rockbox?
02:10:05TheSeventry manually starting the rockbox fallback image from emcore's "tools" menu (the last icon)
02:10:29TheSeventhat will usually behave better on windows systems. this is a known issue that we're currently looking into.
02:10:38swimllamaswimExplorer shows it, but I'll try that
02:10:53TheSeven(when running the fallback image, you won't be able to play music until you boot back into normal rockbox)
02:11:33swimllamaswimshould I restart the rockbox utility?
02:12:30TheSevenoh wait, I think we might be talking about different things
02:12:37TheSevencan you describe in more detail what you were trying to do?
02:12:57TheSevenare you still doing the initial installation, or trying to do an update, or what?
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02:14:09swimllamaswimI'm trying to install rockbox. I have emCore installed, and the fallback image RUNS, but when I connect it to install, the utility freezes, then I have to reconnect the ipod to do anything. It shows the device in explorer, but not as a mountpoint in the utility
02:14:40TheSevenso you can successfully access it using explorer?
02:15:05swimllamaswimit says I need to format it, but it shows up (and it has the ipod as the icon)
02:15:18TheSeventhat doesn't sound good at all
02:15:34TheSeventry reformatting the data partition using emcore's tools menu, and check if it still says that
02:15:43swimllamaswimI've tried it on two computers, same thing
02:15:48swimllamaswimI already did that, twice
02:16:00swimllamaswimand reinstalled emcore twice as well
02:16:18TheSevenvery weird... what happens if you let windows attempt to format it? (as FAT32, not NTFS or exFAT)
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02:17:01***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:17:11swimllamaswimI havent tried that yet (that I can remember. I've been trying this for a few weeks.)
02:19:17swimllamaswimIt froze the file explorer
02:19:45TheSevenwhich exact model of ipod is this? which capacity and year of manufacturing?
02:20:07TheSevenhow long does formatting it through emcore take?
02:20:14swimllamaswim80gb 6g (I think it is a 2009, could be 2008)
02:20:29swimllamaswimemcore usually takes 5-10 minutes, somewhere in there
02:20:59TheSeventhis should be more like 20 seconds or so
02:21:24TheSevendo you hear a lot of clicking noise from the drive during that?
02:21:50swimllamaswimLet me run it again, ill tell you
02:22:36TheSeventhe behavior that you're reporting fits a damaged HDD quite well...
02:22:48TheSevenand it's quite common for these old 80gb drives to fail these days
02:23:02TheSeventhey seem to somehow degrade over time
02:23:29swimllamaswimthere isnt a lot of clicking, a little, but not a ton
02:23:41swimllamaswimabout as much as normal usage
02:23:49TheSevenrepeated clicking patterns, about one click per second?
02:24:14TheSeven(or sometimes a pair of them)
02:24:19swimllamaswimno, a few quick ones every few seconds
02:24:38swimllamaswimok, now it sounds like its turning off
02:24:59TheSeventhe formatting code accesses the disk in a very linear fashion. there shouldn't be any audible head movement at all during that
02:25:13TheSevenwere there any issues at all with this ipod before installing emcore? such as taking unusually long to start playback of a track sometimes?
02:25:15swimllamaswimit comes back on, for about 2 min, and does it again
02:25:31TheSevenas in completely spinning down for a few seconds?
02:25:49swimllamaswimno, the reason I'm doing this is I accedentally disconected it while tranfering music
02:25:50TheSevendoes it make a violent click and "whining" spindown noise before that?
02:26:26swimllamaswimthats it
02:26:38TheSevennot a good sign at all, this means that it had to recover from a state where the drive completely locked up and refused to accept any further commands
02:26:57TheSeveni.e. the ipod had to forcibly cycle the drive's power without being able to properly stop the drive first
02:26:57swimllamaswimhmm... so its probably broken?
02:27:03TheSevensounds like it, yes
02:27:21swimllamaswimstupid apple products
02:27:21TheSevenwhat do you mean with "<swimllamaswim> no, the reason I'm doing this is I accedentally disconected it while tranfering music"?
02:28:08TheSevenin this case you should probably blame toshiba for manufacturing HDDs that, from what it looks like, degrade their servo information over time
02:28:15swimllamaswimthe reason I'm installing rockbox was that I accedentally disconnected it while transfering music, it erased everything, and itunes quit while restoring it
02:28:32TheSevenI've been observing the behavior of one of those affected disks for a few years now, and it is getting continually worse
02:28:33swimllamaswimwell, I just dont like apple in general
02:28:39*TheSeven neither
02:28:48swimllamaswimbetter warn my dad, he has the same one
02:29:12TheSeven"itunes quit while restoring it" is also already a sign of this drive problem
02:29:35swimllamaswimyet, my old 3g ipod works great (except for the battery, it needs a new one)
02:29:47swimllamaswimit has rockbox
02:30:07TheSevendepending on how bad the damage already is, you might have luck working around it for a while using some special tools which try to identify the bad blocks and avoid using them
02:30:23TheSevenhowever this will usually work for a while, until even more damage crops up
02:30:50TheSeventhe one that I'm observing is still alive and usable, but during a recent re-scan of the damage it became clear that it is now spreading out all over the disk surface
02:31:10swimllamaswimwell, I think I have a warrenty on it (I bought it used a few months ago)
02:31:44TheSeventry returning it then. if you don't have success with that, feel free to contact me about that workaround
02:32:36swimllamaswimIn case you're not on, can you give me your email? I'm on vacation right now, it'll be a while before I can return it
02:33:05TheSevenI'm usually connected 24/7, although I might not respond immediately
02:33:35swimllamaswimok, I'm going to be back home next tuesday
02:34:23TheSevenI'm in the UTC+2 time zone, typically available in the late evening
02:36:47swimllamaswimso eastern european time then?
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02:41:07TheSevencentral european + daylight savings
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04:01:00 Join Cinos [0] (
04:04:12CinosI have a Sansa Clip Zip with Rockbox 3.13 (updated yesterday) and I notice that my screen is turning itself on about 5 seconds before the end of a song without me pressing any buttons. I want to disable this because it will only end up draining my battery when I don't press any buttons for a long period of time, but I can't seem to find any information on this functionality even existing, and
04:04:12CinosI can't find any setting for it in the menus.
04:07:47[Saint]One minute.
04:07:52[Saint]I'll be with you shortly.
04:10:30[Saint]Cinos: you have enabled "Caption Backlight"
04:10:44[Saint]Settings - General; Settings - Display - Caption Backlight
04:10:53[Saint]Disable it.
04:10:57CinosOne moment
04:11:07[Saint]It might be worth reading out fine manual.
04:11:43CinosI dont' see "caption backlight"
04:11:55Cinosoh, never mind
04:11:58CinosIt's under LCD settings
04:12:06[Saint]Ah, sorry.
04:12:07CinosThank you
04:12:10[Saint]I was working from memory.
04:12:23Cinosfor at least pointing me in the right direction because I honestly had no idea what to call that feature
04:12:32[Saint]I highly advise updating the Rockbox binary to the development version.
04:13:06[Saint]The stable release is over a year old, and the "stable" classification is rather misleading.
04:13:44[Saint]By using the release build, you're essentially disregarding over a years worth of bugfixes, additional features, and general improvements.
04:13:44CinosWell I do have to say it was an upgrade over whatever the MP3 player had on it previously, then again this was probably over a year ago (it was back when the Clip Zip port was still classified as being 'unstable')
04:14:38CinosMaybe that will help with the issues I'm having just connecting the mp3 player to my computer (tons of crashes)
04:14:50[Saint]stable/unstable/unusable are pretty much meaningless to users - unless the read the detailed explanation of the classification requirements, which very little people seem to so.
04:15:43[Saint]"stable", doesn't necessarily mean it will be stable, or bug free. "unstable" doesn't necessarily imply theere will be bugs, or the system will be unstable at all, and nor does "unusable" imply it cannot be used.
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04:15:54[Saint]I do admit this is highly confusing.
04:17:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:18:21[Saint]A port can be "unstable" simply because it has no documentation, for instance.
04:25:46CinosOkay, upgraded to the dev build. Thanks again for the help and suggestions
04:27:04[Saint]Your USB issues _should_ be resolved.
04:27:36[Saint]If not, it is important to nate that one can easily boot the OF and use it to handle USB transfer.
04:27:52CinosI know that. That's how I upgraded initially
04:28:08[Saint](it is also important to note that this is only a Windows thing - Linux/Mac "Just Works")
04:28:35CinosBecause Windows 7 x64 was initially not recognizing the device at all when it was booted into RockBox, but worked fine on the original firmware.
04:28:42[Saint]What Windows is or isn't doing sifferently, or how exactly we're pissing it off, is still an unknown to my knowledge.
04:29:36CinosThe problem I had more recently was that the device was showing up but not accessible (trying to access it would result in Explorer loading it indefinitely). Also, Rockbox would crash a lot of the time when plugged into a computer
04:29:57[Saint]FOr lack of a better explanation - USB is essentially voodoo
04:30:15[Saint]There are so many opportunities for the clinet, or host, or both, to fuck something up.
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04:31:20[Saint]Linux seems to be a lot more permissive/tolerant (or, sane?) in this regard when compared to Windows.
04:31:27[Saint]For our purposes at least.
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04:31:53[Saint]I think the issue is somewhat compounded by the fact that very few developers use Windows unless the absolutely have to.
04:32:35[Saint]And also that it is problematic to reliably trigger a fault.
04:32:36CinosYeah, it seems completely random what will work and what won't work. If I plug my MP3 player into my desktop's front USB port, it says that it can perform faster if plugged into a USB 2.0 port (even though both the device and port are 2.0), but plugging it into a hub that then plugs into a rear port works fine.
04:33:46[Saint]Front case USb ports are usually *very* shitty quality, and it isn't uncommon to see USB 1.1 ports in the front, even in reasonably modern machines (of lesser quality).
04:34:19CinosI thought of that possibility, but Windows itself didn't show any USB ports that didn't support 2.0
04:34:26CinosAnd no other devices give me this issue
04:35:35CinosBut yeah, in a case like that, I can just boot into the OF and transfer files/perform upgrades that way, so it's not really that big an issue.
04:35:40*[Saint] puts on his speculating hat
04:35:46[Saint]It may be a power issue
04:36:15[Saint]I have seen many times front panel USB ports that are unable to provide 500mA to a single port, let alone several.
04:36:33[Saint]Spec compliance in USb hardware is a very rare thing.
04:36:48CinosThat could be, since I had the same issue on a laptop, and laptops are known for not pushing the typical power of a USB port
04:37:30[Saint]It is incredibly rare to find a machine that doesn't mess up on *some* aspect of USb spec.
04:37:57CinosI have another device that runs RockBox that has similar problems. The device tends to crash when transferring files for an extended period of time (i.e. transferring many songs at once)
04:38:15CinosAnd the transfers run incredibly slow, usually lower than that of USB 1.0
04:38:26[Saint]Is it a HDD based device, or flash based?
04:38:27Cinos*than the maximum transfer speed of 1.0
04:39:40CinosFlash, I'm pretty sure. Also, most of the time I would be transferring to a MicroSD card
04:40:34[Saint]Ah, Hmmm. The reason I ask is that with some HDD based devices, with the LCD on and the HDD spun up, even if connected via USb the device will actually be discharging.
04:41:05[Saint]In your case, it seems to point a finger towards filesystem corruption.
04:41:26[Saint]It may be worthwhile checking the volume for errors.
04:41:45CinosI should at least try to recreate the issue on my other device (same MicroSD card)
04:42:40CinosWell, it crashed before I even did anything. That's a nice start
04:42:58[Saint]The symptoms you describe sound very much like indicators that all is not well in filesystem land.
04:43:51[Saint]Do you safely eject the device, or opt for the usual "yank the cord and hope" method?
04:44:10[Saint](hint: don't do the latter - always safely eject removable storage volumes)
04:44:23CinosUsually do the latter, so that might be the issue
04:45:07[Saint]Without safely ejecting, there's no way to actually guarantee that the files beinf transferred were sucessfully written out to the device.
04:45:30[Saint]Some or all of the transferred files may still be sitting in the write cache.
04:45:45CinosYeah, I have noticed a lot of corrupted music files
04:46:04[Saint]Well, at least now you know why. :)
04:46:20[Saint]This has been a reasonably productive conversation.
04:46:23[Saint]I like these.
04:47:02CinosOkay, I scanned and repaired both using Windows' internal disk check function (I'm not really sure how well that works, though)
04:48:31CinosEr, both being the MicroSD card and the device's internal memory.
04:54:17[Saint]Indeed. Using the Windows-native chksdk function is entirely adequate.
04:54:48[Saint]Not terribly verbose, but perfectly adequate.
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23:19:10fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 43f10db, 253 builds, 33 clients.
23:22:56 Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
23:23:15fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 247 seconds.
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