#rockbox 2014-09-17

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#rockbox log for 2014-09-17

00:00:50	[Franklin]	ploco: be thankful you didn't have to see huge swaths of red on the build screen :)
00:00:54	[Franklin]	I did
00:01:30		Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:07:13	ploco	those are very annoying, I know
00:07:32	[Franklin]	especially when they're false positives.. ares-obo!
00:07:40		Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
00:07:47	[Franklin]	ares-obo didn't have the sim toolchains but it kept trying to build the sims anyway
00:08:09	gevaerts	These things happen
00:08:22		Join nialv7 [0] (~nialv7@adm-129-49-227-242.wi-fi.stonybrook.edu)
00:08:39	[Franklin]	which made me freak
00:08:45	[Franklin]	for about .01 seconds
00:08:47		Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven)
00:10:19	ploco	sun raised..really need to get some sleep ..bye all
00:10:30	[Franklin]	bb
00:10:34	[Franklin]	great dsps, btw
00:10:39		Quit ploco (Quit: Page closed)
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00:12:02		Quit sLite (Remote host closed the connection)
00:12:08	*	[Franklin] hates huge merges
00:12:18	[Franklin]	where you want something from both
00:12:37	[Franklin]	otherwise it'
00:12:43	[Franklin]	otherwise it's easy
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00:16:17	[Franklin]	woohoo it took me 5 minutes to merge 10 lines...
00:18:43	*	[Franklin] wonders about an OpenGL port
00:19:09	[Franklin]	It'd be great having at least OpenGL ES... then I could play some "real" games :O
00:19:57	[Franklin]	Probably mesa would be the best option
00:20:15	*	[Franklin] starts porting
00:25:40		Quit nialv7 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:28:56	[Franklin]	saratoga: g968 ... it's ready!
00:28:57	[Franklin]	:)
00:28:59	fs-bluebot	Gerrit review #968 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/968 : Ptable: hopefully fix all the warnings, modify actinide/lanthanide behavior once... by Franklin Wei
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01:17:59	[Franklin]	gevaerts: could you try commiting g968?
01:17:59	[Franklin]	because... it's ready! :)
01:18:04	fs-bluebot	Gerrit review #968 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/968 : Ptable: hopefully fix all the warnings, modify actinide/lanthanide behavior once... by Franklin Wei
01:31:19	[Franklin]	Any idea when/if relative paths will be supported?
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01:36:03	[Franklin]	foolsh: Any idea when/if relative paths will be supported?
01:36:44	foolsh	Nope sorry I don't have a clue
01:38:14	[Franklin]	ahh.. wrong tab
01:38:14	[Franklin]	anyway, do you think it'd be possible?
01:38:14	[Franklin]	and does rockbox do ../../?
01:38:14	foolsh	Not sure, but anythings possible, and why not use absolute?
01:38:35	*	[Franklin] wants 100% POSIX compatability
01:38:36	DBUG	Enqueued KICK [Franklin]
01:38:36	[Franklin]	:)
01:39:04	foolsh	write a test plugin, shold be easy enough
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01:41:13	[Franklin]	probably jhMikeS would know how/why (not) to implement it
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01:50:00	[Franklin]	saratoga: ping
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02:00
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02:03:13	fulsh	Does anyone know what would cause a #ifndef to be over looked during compile?
02:03:23	fulsh	http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/656/40/apps/misc.c
02:03:28	fulsh	Is throwing "/usr/local/lib/gcc/arm-mingw32ce/4.4.0/../../../../arm-mingw32ce/include/errno.h:12:25: error: no include path in which to search for errno.h"
02:03:37	fulsh	And that file is here http://creativepc.no-ip.org/projects/cegcc/repository/revisions/master/entry/cegcc/src/mingw/include/errno.h
02:03:56	fulsh	Its like its not respecting either #ifndef WINCE and #ifdef __COREDLL__
02:04:07	fulsh	Or is there a compiler flag I need to set or something
02:04:16	[Franklin]	The include paths?
02:04:40	Ctcp	Ignored 9 channel CTCP requests in 11 minutes and 0 seconds at the last flood
02:04:40	*	[Franklin] liked foo\|sh better
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02:05:12	DBUG	Enqueued KICK fulsh
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02:05:18	DBUG	Enqueued KICK [Franklin]
02:07:09	foolsh	The include paths are fine AFIK, the only funny business is that the compiler is looking for a file that it shouldn't be looking for, I've been on this same problem all day
02:07:26	[Franklin]	just comment it out?
02:10:34	Ctcp	Ignored 2 channel CTCP requests in 6 seconds at the last flood
02:10:34	*	foolsh slaps [Franklin] "that breaks other targets"
02:10:48	*	[Franklin] slaps foolsh back"
02:10:51	[Franklin]	"ouch!"
02:11:37	foolsh	Yeah, commenting it out works, but does not fix it
02:11:41	[Franklin]	if you can't, then I'm stumped
02:11:56	[Franklin]	perhaps a trigraph is converting to a backslash in a one-line comment?
02:12:17	[Franklin]	highly unlikely... but who knows?
02:13:05	[Franklin]	(its happened before)
02:13:30		Quit bcobco ()
02:14:27	foolsh	I'm tempted to revert the __COREDLL_ virtual file deletion stuff they pulled on the mingw32ce sources and see what happens
02:22:32	[Franklin]	is there any kind of pipes
02:22:34	[Franklin]	in RB?
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03:02:00	saratoga	haha git clean deleted all my patches but none of the untracked files I was trying to delete
03:02:15	saratoga	impossibly useless
03:05:25	saratoga	seriously, is there anyone here who thinks git is working for us?
03:07:48	*	foolsh pats saratoga on the shoulder "It's ok buddy, we all feel hated by git sometimes"
03:08:10	saratoga	am i just misunderstanding something? i thought git clean was supposed to delete untracked files
03:08:44	drvink	it uses .gitignore unless you tell it not to
03:09:20	saratoga	so i can't checkout a patch because I have files that aren't under version control that it would overwrite
03:09:23	drvink	and .git/info/exclude or whatever
03:09:26		Quit cholero (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:09:30	saratoga	but git clean doesn't remove any files because i have no files that aren't under version control
03:10:08	saratoga	how do I get clean and checkout to agree on what files are being tacked?
03:10:12	saratoga	tracked
03:10:53	drvink	git clean's idea of what's tracked is based on what branch you have checked out
03:11:23	saratoga	so i checked out master, did a hard reset, then a branch
03:11:29	saratoga	then a clean
03:11:54	saratoga	now i can't checkout because i have untracked files according to checkout that clean doesn't see
03:12:28	foolsh	whaa? I would be so upset too
03:12:39	saratoga	git diff origin/master says i have no changes
03:12:40	foolsh	what gerrit task?
03:12:42	drvink	git status −−ignored
03:12:49	drvink	see if there's anything there
03:13:06	saratoga	nothing of note, just some build directories
03:13:15	saratoga	none of the files checkout is complaining about
03:13:24	saratoga	http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/941/ is the task
03:14:33	saratoga	git clean -f right?
03:14:53	saratoga	is there a stronger or more effective version of that command?
03:14:56	drvink	git clean -xfd will delete everything untracked, including empty directories and files that would otherwise be ignored
03:15:10	drvink	might want to use -nxfd to see what it'll delete first
03:15:53	drvink	actually i think -d actually removes untracked directories period, not just empty ones
03:15:59	saratoga	that got it
03:16:05	drvink	nice
03:16:30	saratoga	maybe i spoke too soon
03:16:42	saratoga	i'm in a detached head state
03:16:51	saratoga	how do I fix that?
03:17:25	drvink	what do you want to do? go back to a branch, or merge some stuff from a commit onto a branch?
03:17:36	drvink	or do you want to make a new branch from your current state?
03:18:11	saratoga	i was expecting the changes to be pulled into my current branch
03:18:15	saratoga	but i guess i can just make a new one
03:18:30	drvink	git checkout -b my_cool_branch
03:18:34	drvink	from the detached state
03:18:35	drvink	should work
03:18:39	saratoga	yeah that worked
03:18:47	saratoga	why did i end up in the 'detached' state anyway?
03:19:01	[Saint]	'cos...git.
03:19:12	drvink	well
03:19:27	drvink	git branches are just "pointers" to places in the commit history, that's why they're cheap to make
03:19:44	drvink	so all a branch really is is a reference to some commit which is treated as the HEAD of that branch
03:20:16		Quit babylonlurker (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:20:53	saratoga	whats the command than to just take your current branch and apply the gerrit task to it? pull?
03:21:14	drvink	so, if you check out something that's not a known branch head, it warns you of that so that you don't accidentally throw away some changes (because it's possible to make commits on that "detached" code line)
03:21:21	drvink	(and then go make a branch from that, etc.)
03:21:29	drvink	git pull should work, yeah
03:22:11	[Saint]	Its not secret that if you're really used to subversion, git seems unintuitive and fucking nightmarish.
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03:22:28	[Saint]	there's several things in subversion that are hilariously trivial that git overcomplicates
03:22:36	drvink	the great thing about git is that it does everything you could possibly want (unless what you want is lots of binary file tracking)
03:22:45	drvink	the bad thing is that it's usually not intuitive
03:22:54	[Saint]	if you'd never ever touched subversion, git would likely seem a bit saner.
03:22:54	drvink	until you know how to do it, and then it's alright
03:23:01	*	[Saint] nods
03:23:18	drvink	(still frustrating though, haha)
03:23:39	drvink	i haven't used any of the git guis but they might make some stuff easier
03:23:43	saratoga	yeah from my point of view i'd just like to be able to make a branch, apply a patch, and then compile stuff
03:24:01	drvink	yeah, pulling or cherry-picking should do what you want, then
03:24:03	saratoga	but 99% of the time this ends in me having to revert my VM image to an earlier state to recover
03:24:14	[Saint]	I understand the frustration - apparently so do the various committers that fell off the map entirely when we switched and never requested access.
03:24:32	drvink	pull is, at its simplest, just fetch+merge
03:24:41		Quit krabador (Quit: Take the time.)
03:25:18	drvink	the merge might be a fast-forward (i.e. your HEAD is simply advanced to the HEAD of that branch), or it might be an actual merge, depending on whether you have changes that need merging
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03:26:32	drvink	you can make it rebase instead (usually not what you want), and you can also tell it to not fast-forward (also usually what you want)
03:26:40	drvink	er, also usually not
03:27:18	drvink	the latter is a pretty weird case, the former can be useful if you haven't pushed any changes anywhere but want to apply your current work on top of whatever's happened since you last pulled
03:28:18	saratoga	so if i want to delete a file and post it back to gerrit
03:28:40	saratoga	i can git rm the file, git commit −−amend and then push it?
03:29:20	drvink	not sure how gerrit will handle that, but it'll probably work
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03:29:40	drvink	actually yeah, it'll handle it fine (i amended a commit and pushed to it for the patch i made)
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03:35:32	saratoga	so I did a 'git add' followed by a 'git commit −−amend' and it added thousands of other lines that i didn't just add
03:35:44	saratoga	i thought commit only touched files you had added?
03:37:46	drvink	an amend is basically redoing the HEAD commit with your changes
03:39:52	saratoga	i think i was just confused about the list of files
03:40:00	saratoga	does it only show preexisting files as changed?
03:40:50	saratoga	or rather, I guess the lines changed is only counting prexisting files, not lines added to new files
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06:32:45	Eric	Im rather amazed at the fact Rockbox is still under development
06:33:34	Eric	But im sorta curious if anyone here knows if there are any updates to progress on the ipod classic 6th gen
06:35:27	Eric	I guess chat is dead, nevermind
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07:46:39	ploco	saratoga: try SmartGit. Its good.
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08:03:03	wodz	saratoga: My personal git habits are as follows: 1) I keep clean local master which tracks origin/master to always easily come back 2) If I want to try something from gerrit I create separate branch (git branch some_new_branch), 'go' to that branch (git checkout some_new_branch) and then cherry-pick the patch from gerrit. Testing and messing as usual. For the new patch version I usually delete current branch and goto 2: 3) I usually don't ha
08:03:03	wodz	ve uncommited locally changes If I know this is not something very temporal. If it IS something very temporal and I need to switch to something else git stash comes to the rescue. 4) The most useful command in your local branch full of local commits is git rabase -i which lets you reorganize the commits (merge, amend, etc.). You can use additional switch (can't remember from the top of my head which) to go chunk-by-chunk instead of commit-by-
08:03:07	wodz	commit
08:04:34	wodz	saratoga: There are for sure other, maybe better ways but this works for me reasonably well (i.e I rarely end up in weird state)
08:05:39	wodz	saratoga: And BTW I found git to be superior in every single aspect to svn as well as gerrit to be quite handy
08:10:45	jhMikeS	you can just check out from gerrit into a detached head, creating an actual branch if you so desire
08:13:39	foolsh	saratoga: To add to this, if you want to use git to keep track of small changes after pulling in a gerrit task to a branch. Use git as normal, make change, "git add" then "git commit" and when you're ready to upload the changes to the gerrit task, use "git rebase -i HEAD~N" where N is the number of commits backwards you want to "squash" your work into. Then push to gerrit
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08:20:31	jhMikeS	git is alot like flying a tardis
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08:24:23	wodz	ha, pamaury cloned itself finally.
08:25:29	foolsh	Except that little thing sticking out on the side it went really well I see
08:26:13	wodz	pamaury: How 'analyzers' in qeditor are supposed to support more then one SoC? To make it short I mean how to add clock analyzer for rk27xx
08:27:23	wodz	foolsh: Dolly cloning had some glitches as well :-)
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08:54:16	pamaury	wodz: good question, let me check the code ;)
08:55:05	pamaury	note though that you can always split the clock analyser into one for imx233 and one for rk27xx, the code will pick the right one automatically
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08:55:34	pamaury	in SupportSoc() you can check the soc name and return true if the analyser supports it
08:56:32	pamaury	and in the analyser itself, you have access to a SocRef which points to a soc_t so you can get the soc name and do a different analysis depending on the soc
08:57:51	pamaury	at the moment the analyser in qeditor are a bit of a mess
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08:58:08	pamaury	I had plans to write a generic clock analyser to abstract the generic part, but never did it
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08:59:07	pamaury	but basically what you can do is modify ClockAnalyser::SupportSoc() to return true for rk27xx
08:59:47	pamaury	rename ClockAnalyser::FillTree() to FillTreeIMX233
08:59:52	pamaury	implement your FillTreeRK27XX
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09:00:34	pamaury	and in the ctor, do something like if(soc.GetSoc().name == "imx233") FillTreeIMX233() else if(soc.GetSoc().name == "rk27xx") FillTreeRK27XX()
09:01:00	wodz	pamaury: ok, thanks
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09:02:25	pamaury	wodz: feel free to enhance the AddClock function if you need more features, but avoid creating a new one ;)
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09:03:54	wodz	pamaury: I must say that with SoC desc editor and hwstub support qeditor is tremendously useful software
09:04:37	pamaury	I'm glad you appreciate it, I spent a lot of time on it and it was very useful for me too
09:04:38	pamaury	still is
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11:03:29	foolsh	For anyone who dislikes Gerrits code browser, Over at http://creativepc.no-ip.org/projects/rockbox-gerrit-tasks/repository I've indexed and set up a repo browser so you can use the drop down "Branch" menu and find the Patch set of the Gerrit Task you wish to examine, and then click "View Differences" at the bottom of the screen for a unified view of changes on one page. Anyone is welcome to use it
11:04:50	foolsh	Its not terribly fast but also not terribly slow
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11:16:45	gevaerts	foolsh: the other way of course is to ask gitweb about it, but that's manual work
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11:37:08	foolsh	gevaerts do you mind looking at something? And letting me know, if you know, why my "#ifndef WINCE" is seemingly ignored when I compile? errno.h is unavailable in wince, so there has been some effort to "virtually delete" it, but apps/misc.c keeps erroring out looking for it when I run make
11:37:16	foolsh	http://creativepc.no-ip.org/projects/rockbox-gerrit-tasks/repository/diff?utf8=%E2%9C%93&rev=21704cc4642ff2d1903a714ed442f8ec66edb645&rev_to=12f5c63474c03a5f06ea5c04de267a1a8fa36233
11:38:46	gevaerts	foolsh: where is WINCE defined?
11:39:28	foolsh	in firmware/export/config/sdlappwince.h
11:39:55	gevaerts	Ah, yes
11:40:30	*	gevaerts doesn't see what's going on right away
11:40:38	gevaerts	Wouldn't it be easier to fake errno though?
11:41:13	gevaerts	Add an errno.h somewhere, only add it to your include path for wince, have it have extern int errno, and provide the int errno somewhere?
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11:43:16	foolsh	I'd have to patch the toolchain, there was an effort on the cegcc developers side to "virtually" remove it with "#ifdef __COREDLL__" http://creativepc.no-ip.org/projects/cegcc/repository/revisions/master/entry/cegcc/src/mingw/include/errno.h the toolschain is riddled with it
11:43:51	foolsh	I thought it may be the way I invoke the compiler, wasn't sure
11:43:57	foolsh	but thanks
11:44:20	gevaerts	Why would you have to patch the toolchain?
11:46:16	foolsh	#include <errno.h> was "virtually removed" from the toolchain along with <signal.h> by wrapping them in #ifdef __COREDLL_ which when I define gives me even more trouble
11:47:14	*	gevaerts isn't sure what that means
11:49:13	foolsh	Hmm, instead of deleting form the mingw32ce tools #include <errno.h>" they wrapped it in an #ifdef so that it's still there for the mingw32 guys but not for the mingw32ce users if that makes sense
11:49:28	foolsh	s/form/from
11:50:50	gevaerts	What actually happens if you include errno.h?
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11:57:19	foolsh	/usr/local/lib/gcc/arm-mingw32ce/4.4.0/../../../../arm-mingw32ce/include/errno.h:12:25: error: no include path in which to search for errno.h
11:57:56	gevaerts	Looks like a fun one :)
11:58:22	gevaerts	Can you have your own errno.h somewhere, or does include order make that impossible?
11:59:21	foolsh	Didn;t think about that was trying to emulate the way the toolchain was doing things I'd have to include signal.h as well
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12:00:29	foolsh	Shold they go in rockbox/firmware/include ?
12:02:49	gevaerts	I'd say a specific directory somewhere. We have an errno.h in firmware/libc/include/errno.h for native targets, and we do want the system one on most hosted targets, so yours is really only for wince
12:03:01	gevaerts	We don't want it by accident elsewhere :)
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12:30:38	jhMikeS	gevaerts: really we should use the system errno.h at all times on a hosted target, even if using our own C lib
12:30:57	gevaerts	jhMikeS: this particular case doesn't have a system errno.h
12:31:18	gevaerts	So the choice is between using a fake one or #ifdeffing all errno uses
12:32:13	foolsh	right up into the toolchain, and I went that route once... it was nasty... started over at that point
12:32:18	jhMikeS	weird that mingw wouldn't have it; if we use ours then any host calls that set it for our calls would produce inconsistent results
12:33:01	jhMikeS	besides, it needs to be saved as context for our fibers
12:37:33	foolsh	https://www.mail-archive.com/cegcc-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01265.html
12:40:03	foolsh	I can explicitly tell it to use firmware/libc/include/errno.h with an ifdef I assume? its just a simple header file right?
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12:41:39	foolsh	Or I may examine the use of the old arm-wince-cegcc toolschain where it's reported to work, but its rather old.
12:41:42	jhMikeS	well then alot of shit ain't gonna work
12:42:03	foolsh	Tell me about it
12:42:17	jhMikeS	I mean it's actually used and expected to return valid codes, more now than ever
12:44:21	*	foolsh takes a few steps back to the first square he started on... again
12:44:57	jhMikeS	mingw is crap and I hated dealing with it
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12:48:19	jhMikeS	so much workaround
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20:00:18	wodz	pamaury: (log) I am almost done with implementing clock analyzer for rk27xx. I'll put the patch on gerrit when finished.
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22:01:33	sgk	Anyone here?
22:02:04	ZincAlloy	yup, just ask and wait until someone who knows the answer finds the time to help you :)
22:05:10		Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
22:12:47	sgk	Okay, so I recently got a clip+ with rockbox and it’s great but I’m trying to decide if I should buy a faster microsd card. My clip+ unfortunately has the buzzing noise every time it scans the database, so I was thinking that getting a card with faster read/write will reduce the duration of buzzing. I have about 30gb of music on my current sd card so it takes a bit of time to scan through it all. My current card is class 4 and has 10/5 read and write. I’m loo
22:12:48	sgk	at buying a 64gb sdxc and formatting it to fat32. Will upgrading to 80/50 read write significantly increase database scanning speed?
22:13:12	[Saint]	I wanted to avoid it, but, do I /really/ need to put "Don't ask to ask, etc." in the topic?
22:13:42	*	gevaerts isn't convinced that the SD controller in the clip+ can actually reach those fast speeds
22:13:50	[Saint]	^ this
22:14:04	gevaerts	I don't know though
22:14:04	[Saint]	I doubt there'll be any demonstrable difference at all
22:14:47	copper	I know the Fuze+ can't
22:15:09	[Saint]	The UHS cards are _absolute_ overkill.
22:15:26	copper	the Fuze+ would max out at about 4-5 MB/s, though I can't remember if pamaury managed to get the full 8-10 MB/s out of it
22:15:52	[Saint]	ragardless, there's no way its doing 80/50 ;)
22:15:56	fs-bluebot	Gerrit review #80 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/80 : skin engine: New logical 'and' and 'or' tags to evaluate multiple tags in a single... by Jonathan Gordon
22:16:16	[Saint]	bluebrother^: cute parse error ;)^
22:18:04	[Saint]	The SoC (CPU access) is the noisey bugger on these devices, isn't it? Or does it vary?
22:18:20	sgk	Okay, thank you for the answer Saint. And sorry, about asking. This is the first time I’m using an irc client so I wasn’t sure if no one was talking or I connected improperly.
22:18:31	[Saint]	I recall mine has an obvious interference on boosting, but nothing I've noticed with sd IO.
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22:19:29	[Saint]	Getting a faster card will benefit you if you have a UHS enabled card reader (ie. not the Clip), when transferring media, but I doubt it will help in any noticeable way with your issue.
22:20:29	[Saint]	If you want a high capacity microSD card, its pretty difficult to avoid UHS, and that's fine, but the device will see no benefit from these write speeds it can't dream of approaching.
22:20:48	[Saint]	*read/write
22:21:31	sgk	I see. I guess I should just open the music files I want instead of opening up the database.
22:22:31	[Saint]	filescan should be taking a matter of seconds at boot time.
22:22:48	[Saint]	after that, accesing the Database should be essentially free on flash targets.
22:23:58	[Saint]	Unrelated to the above discussion: Does anyone know who removed TAGCACHE_RAM, and..why?
22:24:21	[Saint]	I have a funny feeling it was jhMikeS, but I'm not committed to saying so absolutely just yet.
22:25:05	[Saint]	Yes, the WIP filesystem code is faster...but no so much so that we can cut out TAGCACHE_RAM without having a discussion about it.
22:25:44	[Saint]	I guess I need to go into blame assigning mode when I get home.
22:25:59	[Saint]	Someone done goofed.
22:31:27	sgk	In that case, I think I should disable idle poweroff. Hopefully that will fix my issue. Thanks.
22:32:01	[Saint]	How so?
22:32:51	[Saint]	From what you've described, you'll hit this issue whenever you hit the disk, its kinda unavoidable.
22:32:56	[Saint]	It rather sounds like poorly paired headphones, or overly sensitive ones.
22:33:00	sgk	I felt that my clip+ was rescanning my database all the time
22:33:18	sgk	i only really noticed the buzzing when it was scanning through my sd card
22:33:26	[Saint]	Nah. It'll only do this if you tell it to.
22:33:41	[Saint]	At boot, it'll check for new media to add...but that's it.
22:33:57	[Saint]	(and only then if autoscan is enabled in the db)
22:35:07	[Saint]	When playing audio, of course, it needs to regularly access the filesystem in order to refresh the audio buffer.
22:35:26	[Saint]	And that's absolutely unavoidable.
22:36:26	[Saint]	The default theme will provide a very clear indication as to whether or not we're currently accessing the disk - other themes I can't speak for.
22:37:01	[Saint]	(any theme that uses the built-in ststusbar will, though)
22:37:07	sgk	Is the disc access icon on the top right of the screen?
22:37:19	[Saint]	Yes.
22:37:31	sgk	Okay. I’ll have to check again when I get home.
22:38:07	copper	FYI, the Fuze+ doesn't produce that noise
22:38:13	copper	dunno about the Clip Zip
22:38:19	sgk	It’s strange because I only notice the buzzing when it was scanning the database
22:38:32	copper	because no music was playing
22:38:41	copper	you can hear it too when starting a song that starts with silence
22:38:59	[Saint]	understandable. its lots of filesystem access, likely with a boosted CPU, with no audio playing.
22:39:22	copper	I thought the Clip+ doesn't "unboost"
22:39:27	copper	er
22:39:38	copper	that Rockbox doesn't unboost the CPU on the Clip+
22:40:00	copper	i.e. the CPU on the Clip+ is always boosted?
22:40:05	[Saint]	Yeah, that's why I was being a bit vague there - I'm not sure which AMS variant(s) it is that don't scale.
22:41:19	[Saint]	That might be fun to look at again. If I can find a couple of devices for cheap.
22:41:20	sgk	If that’s the case copper, I’m going to try and return my clip+ and get a fuze+.
22:41:59	copper	sgk: the Fuze+ has slight hiss that's audible with sensitive IEMs though
22:42:11	[Saint]	hah - slight.
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22:42:19	[Saint]	funny definition of slight. ;)
22:42:22	copper	hmm?
22:42:31	[Saint]	Its awful.
22:42:44	copper	depends with what IEMs
22:43:23	copper	what's the sensitivity of your IEMs? Aren't those CIEMs? Those are usually very sensitive.
22:43:43	sgk	I have yamaha eph-100’s. I’m not sure if they are that sensitive.
22:43:51	copper	also, the hiss gets more audible as your IEM isolation increases
22:44:22	[Saint]	They're 21 Ohm IIRC.
22:44:43	[Saint]	20~19000Hz, I believe?
22:45:02	copper	what does it matter?
22:45:19	copper	that's not sensitivity
22:46:32	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:46:37	[Saint]	yeah - sorry, output stream of consciousness while I think. Somewhere in the order of 111dB@1kHz
22:46:47	copper	they're rated at 104 dB/mW, or 122 dB/V
22:46:52	copper	that's very sensitive
22:47:17	copper	so yeah, the hiss will likely be audible
22:48:07	[Saint]	like there's a snake in your brain.
22:48:12	sgk	Oh man.. So which player do you guys recommend?
22:48:18	copper	sadly I don't know of another Rockbox DAP that would work well with those
22:48:24	copper	(IEMs)
22:48:27	sgk	All I need is something with expandable memory.
22:48:41	copper	they're very low impedance (16 ohms), which requires a device with an output impedance of 2 ohms or less
22:48:47	*	[Saint] points out that his IEMs are ridiculously sensitive audio engineer/recording artist quality
22:48:56	copper	the Classic is pretty much silent, but it's 5.5 ohms
22:48:59	[Saint]	not really a real-world scenario.
22:49:13	copper	[Saint]: and with very high isolation from outside noise
22:49:28	[Saint]	Indeedy.
22:49:42	copper	sgk: you can find cheap Fuze+ refurbs on eBay
22:50:32	Faux	It's not like the fuze+ is expensive to start with. He says, trying to fix his fuze+ because he needs it before shipping times.
22:50:44	copper	what?
22:51:01	copper	the Fuze+ is quite expensive when sold new
22:51:09	copper	well, relatively
22:51:17	[Saint]	for what it is, yes.
22:51:21	Faux	I guess I bought my first years after it was released.
22:51:28	copper	even now
22:51:32	copper	and possibly more so now
22:52:09	sgk	I found one for $35, which is the same as a new clip+
22:52:15	Faux	I would gladly pay £28 for a replacement instead of trying to get this one to charge. Oh, that claims refurb anyway.
22:52:22	copper	sgk: that's likely a refurb
22:52:36	copper	Faux: there you go
22:53:04	sgk	Yeah. But I usually have no problems with manufacturer refurbs.
22:53:59	copper	yeah it's fine, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it
22:55:45	sgk	So if I go with the fuze+, I should probably use headphones?
22:56:06	copper	only you can tell
22:56:17	copper	try it with your IEMs first, if that's what you want to use
22:59:03	sgk	someone from hydrogenaudio says that he can only hear the hiss on his IEMs when nothing’s playing so I still have hope.
22:59:46	copper	that's me
22:59:53	copper	(skamp)
23:00
23:00:16	copper	"nothing playing" means silence
23:00:37	copper	there can be silence at the start of tracks, which is why you hear the Clip+ noise to begin with
23:03:57	sgk	So is the hissing worse on the clip+ compared to the fuze+?
23:04:04	copper	this is why high headphone / IEM sensitivity is a flaw rather than an advantage
23:04:17	copper	the Clip+ doesn't hiss
23:04:25	copper	it's not the same kind of noise
23:05:03	sgk	What’s the difference in noise?
23:05:11	copper	hiss is white noise
23:05:14	copper	constant
23:05:25	sgk	The problem I have with the clip+ is the high pitched squeal when the databse is scanning
23:05:34	copper	yes I know
23:05:47	copper	why do you care though?
23:06:24	copper	it's not playing music when it's scanning storage
23:06:50	copper	I'm not sure it's even scanning the database
23:07:09	copper	it's mostly annoying between tracks
23:07:41	copper	at least the Fuze+ hiss is constant
23:07:45	sgk	I was under the impression that the clip+ keeps scanning while it’s turned on
23:07:49	copper	and doesn't really stand out
23:08:00	copper	sgk: no, why would it do that?
23:08:15	copper	you'll hear the Clip+ noise when it buffers songs
23:08:18	sgk	Maybe it was because my clip+ kept idling
23:08:40	copper	you hear that noise while the Clip+ is idle?
23:08:58	sgk	no
23:09:07		Quit nk2032 ()
23:09:19	sgk	I press power to turn the screen back on and it starts scanning
23:09:42	copper	does it show the rockbox logo?
23:09:49	gevaerts	Isn't that display noise rather than sd noise then?
23:10:05	gevaerts	Or both?
23:10:10	sgk	no it just goes to the main menu
23:10:14		Quit lleeloo_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
23:10:16	copper	you shouldn't need to press power to turn on the display
23:10:26	copper	any key will do
23:10:33	copper	any button*
23:10:50	copper	if other buttons don't turn on the display, it means that your Clip+ is turned off
23:11:41	copper	(shut down)
23:11:58	sgk	Okay, I see.
23:13:01	sgk	Maybe I was thinking it was scanning the database when it was just buffering the next song
23:13:05	copper	Rockbox will scan storage on every bootup
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23:21:05	[Franklin]	saratoga: ping
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