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#rockbox log for 2014-09-30

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00:25:49 Join Fiio-Noob [0] (b8a34d2d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:27:22Fiio-NoobIs Rockbox available on DAPs like Fiio X1, X3, X5?
00:28:49copperFiio-Noob: nope
00:29:08copperand there are currently no plans to port Rockbox to those players
00:29:41Fiio-NoobOk thanks do you have any recommendations for good players with Rockbox?
00:30:21copperiPod Classic, Sansa Clip+, Sansa Fuze+
00:30:21Catelite`Sansa clip zip :D
00:30:33Catelite`I had a fuze but I lost it somehow
00:31:21Fiio-NoobThe iPod Classic is better than the iPod Video 5.5??
00:32:06Fiio-Noobok thanks
00:32:59Fiio-NoobIf I have an android device without USB Host should I bother buying a USB DAC/AMP?
00:33:30 Quit markun (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:34:12copperI'm unfamiliar with USB audio on Android, but you likely don't need a USB DAC no matter what
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00:34:39copperyou might need a headphone amplifier if your Android device doesn't get loud enough, or suffers from high output impedance
00:35:53Fiio-NoobI have FLAC files (44.1/16 and some 48/24) is it necessary?
00:36:08copperis what necessary, and for what?
00:36:33copperFLAC is not necessary to achieve good sound quality
00:36:43Fiio-NoobA USB DAC/AMP
00:36:48Fiio-Noobfor pc
00:37:45copperstop reading audiophile forums
00:38:04copper99.9% of "knowledge" over there is pure bullshit
00:38:23Fiio-NoobHaha well I want to achive good sound quality, how to I do that?
00:39:26copperrip your own CDs, use a good codec with good settings (FLAC, or LAME MP3 -V2, or Ogg Vorbis -q 5), load them onto a Rockboxed player like the ones I mentionned earlier
00:40:15copperthose codecs are just examples, there are others
00:40:35copperthe compression settings above are just examples too
00:40:53Fiio-NoobYeah I know, but does higher bitrate help in better sound?
00:41:15coppernot once you've achieved transparency, no
00:41:50copperI suggest you start reading and their wiki
00:42:19Fiio-NoobThank you very much for your help :) !
00:42:26coppergotta go
00:43:41Fiio-Noobthanks again
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00:51:33alexbobpflac is a terrible codec for digital audio players and mp3 is a terrible codec objectively
00:51:38alexbobpbut at least copper mentioned vorbis too :P
00:52:10alexbobpoh wait I see the noob was bringing up flac
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01:12:35Catelite`.. o.o
01:12:43Catelite`My Sansa clip zip is still playing
01:12:47Catelite`It's been +12 hours
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01:21:27*Strife89 managed 12h ~45m with his Zip last night
01:31:38***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:36:41Catelite`It's amazing
01:36:48Catelite`I have no idea what the standard firmware is doing so badly
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01:39:28Catelite`I usually get 8~ hours out of it
02:37:15[Saint]If you're using flac, they use a _really_ fucking inefficient flac implementation.
02:39:51[Saint]Realistically, though, I find battery runtime to be a very non-interesting metric.
02:40:11[Saint]Who has ever listened to their DAp for ~15h consecutively?
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02:42:07[Saint]alexbobp: I suspect you're thinking of MP3 of old.
02:43:10[Saint]MP3 has come a /loooooooooong/ way, so much so, that even 128kbps MP3 is transparent when compared to lossless codecs in double blind testing, for a large majority of the population.
02:44:28[Saint]Those that /can/ detect it, can usually only do so on very specific tracks.
02:45:11[Saint]TL;DR: MP3 encoded with a recent implementation is perfectly fine for a large majority of the population, even at low bitrates.
02:45:52[Saint]If we're considering MP3 of say, over a decade ago, I could agree with your statement.
02:56:00alexbobp[Saint]: interesting. I had been under the impression that the issues with the acoustic model would require fixing in the *de*coder, is that wrong?
02:56:49alexbobpbut yeah could be I was just thinking of mp3 of old. I didn't really know it was being improved
02:57:08alexbobp"a recent implementation" includes modern lame right?
02:57:16[Saint]As far as I am aware, yes. But someone else more familiar with MP3 decoding should chime in.
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02:58:37[Saint]MP3 certainly used to be terrible. I agree.
02:59:17[Saint]But these days for most of the population MP3 320 CBR is indescribable from lossless.
02:59:55[Saint]And even MP3 128~256 can be entirely transparent for some samples.
03:00:00 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection)
03:00:44[Saint]I use MP3 320 on all my portable devices personally. Its a mature codec with widespread adoption and a small footprint.
03:01:26[Saint]In another 10 years time, I suspect Opus will be taking MP3's place in this regard.
03:01:51[Saint]s/suspect/hope/ ...its more of a wish, really.
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03:09:12Catelite`I usually use 128 VBR ogg for my portable devices
03:09:27Catelite`There's a rare few songs that don't pass well, but out of thousands that's acceptable
03:09:44Catelite`Even 96 kbps is almost entirely transparent for me with ogg
03:10:01Catelite`above 128 and I can never tell a difference
03:10:21Catelite`I don't even know what OGG and MP3 do differently, specifically
03:10:34Catelite`But it's nice that rockbox can read them. It'd be a bit odd if it couldn't xD
03:11:56Catelite`OGG needs more popularity :o
03:12:24Catelite`There is something delicious about 160 kbps MP3
03:12:34Catelite`It just sounds different somehow, I can never put my finger on it
03:12:38[Saint]I can tell the difference between various bitrate flavors of MP3 with specific reference tracks, and my own (full custom, professional audio engineer quality) IEMs, when I'm trying to. But unless one dips below 128kbps, its almost impossible to discern a difference if I'm not the one picking the tracks or its not my audio hardware I'm listening to.
03:12:53*[Saint] firmly believes OGG needs to fuck off and die. ;)
03:13:13Catelite`aww :o
03:13:20[Saint]Its like MP3's smelly annoying cousin that no one likes.
03:13:30Catelite`What particularly do you dislike about it o.o
03:13:33Catelite`besides the analogy
03:14:25[Saint]The fact that its now largely unnecessary. It was supposed to be so many things that it just...isn't. And the fact that its adoption isn't even remotely close to that of MP3 makes it an inconvenience.
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03:15:17[Saint]MP3 "just works", pretty much everywhere, on pretty much all audio hardware.
03:15:49Catelite`I mostly only use it because at 96 kbps, with any encoders I've been able to find at least, ogg encoding seems to lack the audible grain in the background of everything
03:15:56[Saint]Also, vorbis metadata is a minefield.
03:16:15Catelite`I guess my standards are not really up there or anything
03:16:31Catelite`I always nuke metadata and write my own album/artist/titles if they can't be quickly regex'd
03:16:36Catelite`and.. stop there
03:16:53[Saint]I'm not sure any real "standards" for embedded metadata really exist for vorbis.
03:17:29[Saint]There's a definite intention, but I'm not sure it ever became reality.
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03:18:31Catelite`does it at least qualify for the 'okay for mp3 players at 96kbps' bit
03:18:45Catelite`I don't know how to encode MP3 such that it gets around that issue
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03:19:43[Saint]At that kind of bitrate (I'm guessing that storage space is the concern for you?), I strongly believe you'd be better off looking at opus.
03:19:52Catelite`Not sure what opus is!
03:19:59*Catelite` looks it up
03:20:23[Saint]Its a low latency low bitrate scalable codec.
03:21:08Catelite`and that it is, yeah
03:21:21Catelite`but mostly the issue is that higher bitrate equates more power consumption on portable devices
03:21:27Catelite`in a very noticeable, measurable fashion
03:21:48Catelite`the difference between 128 and 256 is losing power at 5 PM or lunchtime
03:22:11Catelite`(it's probably extended now with rockbox having less issue with this, actually_
03:22:51[Saint]There really shouldn't be anywhere close to +/- 5h with 128 vs. 256k
03:23:14Catelite`It might've been 320 I'm thinking about
03:23:37Catelite`I did have one album of music I failed to reencode out of mp3 format that would basically kill the machine's batter life by lunchtime pretty consistently
03:23:55Catelite`I should probably try it on purpose to see if there's any noticeable difference
03:24:03[Saint]Even then. There's going to be a measureable difference, sure. But +/- 5h is rather extreme.
03:24:08Catelite`..Well :P
03:24:27Catelite`Keeping in mind, just switching to Rockbox firmware added five hours to the battery lifetime
03:24:47Catelite`even with occasional button poking and messing around on the menus
03:25:12Catelite`This thing's battery is like clockwork, I can tell when it's time to clock out at work by it
03:25:30[Saint]My situation is quite different, I suppose. I don't use low capacity flash based players any more. The smallest capacity device I use frequently is 128GB.
03:26:02[Saint]So using MP3 at 320 isn't really a concern at all.
03:26:06Catelite`yeah :o
03:26:44Catelite`if I run over the battery on this thing I have to addend a portable battery pack to it and squeeze it into my pocket somewhere
03:26:56Catelite`which works, it's just a bit unwieldy
03:29:25 Quit chrisb (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
03:30:00[Saint]Heh. That's something I can relate to. My usual setup is one of either an iPod Video/Classic/4G, and an FiiO Mont Blanc E12.
03:31:24[Saint]At a guess I would posit it weighs somewhere in the vicinity of 1~1.5kg
03:31:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:31:56[Saint]ANd it kinda freaks me out a little bit...its like having a fricken' bomb sitting ~10cm away from your nuts.
03:32:29[Saint]Large amounts of power compressed into tiny spaces concerns me at the best of times.
03:32:46[Saint]Doubly so when its positioned in close proximity to my genitalia.
03:35:50[Saint](Before you state the obvious, yes, I'm well aware that the E12 is a rather dramatic case of overkill in this instance, but...its pretty, and I need a fairly decent amplifier to drive my UE 18 Pros.)
03:36:46Catelite`No idea what those words mean!
03:36:49Catelite`still looking up opus
03:38:43[Saint]partial explanation via PM, as this is sliding well off topic.
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04:24:45HeadWhackerhi, the plugin fft, do not display graphs when I change the rb paths for android target.
04:25:40HeadWhackereverything else including all other plugins work fine withe new paths
04:26:40HeadWhackerI don't see hard coded paths in the fft source. So I'm lost on this one. Has anyone seen this before?
04:29:56saratogathe FFT plugin talks to the audio playback engine, maybe something to do wth that?
04:30:00saratogavery few plugins do that
04:33:16HeadWhackerthanks I'll look into that. Just strange everything else is fine.
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07:35:19plocoHeadWhacker: fft plugin no display has nothing to do with path name. check out FFT_SIZE. try make it not larger than 2048
07:36:53plocothat's how I make to work on a 1080x1920 build. a bit buggy in lines but bars looks fine
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08:49:00wodzpamaury: (log) iriver e30/e40/e50 seems to be stmp3770 based
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09:16:06wodzpamaury: e50 is not atj213x based most probably
09:16:31pamaurywodz: yeah I saw, apparently it's based on STMP3770
09:17:13pamaurythe more I think about it, it seems like it would be sensible to have a "mini-rockbox" for players with small ram
09:18:03wodzpamaury: the question always is what to exclude
09:20:00pamauryyeah I know
09:20:14pamauryand it's unclear if it could reuse the whole codebase or not
09:31:31wodzpamaury: The core in atj must be slightly different variant to this in ralink chipset (the one with ugly linux driver). To silence irq storm I need to poke one register which is not used in ralink source. :/
09:31:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:31:54pamaury:-/ then you should base your code on the adfu source
09:32:49wodz... which is even more weird
09:43:27pamauryI have found a E100, I think I should be able to get it within one week
09:43:50wodzI am reading actions firmware disasm and this is incredible how inefficient the code is. 1) Every single write to registers goes through function call 2) In function which actually touches register it first stores parameters passed in registers on the stack just to read it back to different register and store in mem. This makes understanding of the code rather hard as you always must pay attention to offsets relative to stack
09:45:37wodzah, and the stack is not referenced directly but first sp is moved to dedicated register, every access is relative to this reg and in epilogue this is restored back to original values.
09:46:00wodzno single branch delay slot is filled with something different then nop
09:57:21wodzpamaury: your bunch of qeditor rework does not compile for me
09:59:54wodzpamaury: wrong, it compiles if *all* four are applied. Without g#984 it does not
09:59:58fs-bluebotGerrit review #984 at : qeditor: add register diff tab (WIP) by Amaury Pouly
10:01:18wodzpamaury: is 984 supposed to show something or is this just a stub now?
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12:46:34pamaurywodz: it's unfinished, don't use it :p
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20:14:46MihailWhen I press pause sound terminates immediately (fade off), but player drain battery two seconds after it as if he continued to play. Why?
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20:24:23 Join saratoga [0] (123e11e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
20:24:30saratogai vaguely remember seeing that
20:24:51saratogai'm not sure how the audio hardware is powered off, but i believe there is a delay
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21:15:13MihailI can't understand what we doing when we have BUFFER_EVENT_BUFFER_LOW. I see spike power consumption (every second or slightly less) but buffer still stay low.
21:32:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:55:00wodzpamaury: (log) <- wireshark log of current state of atj hwstub
23:00:16 Quit chrisb (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23:01:19wodzpamaury: The anomalies are: 1) Extra descriptors in last response to Request CONFIGURATION (packet no. 72). I am not sure if this is hwstub specific or just some error. 2) Malformed reponses to some GET DESCRIPTOR STRING
23:02:43wodzpamaury: in dmesg I have usb 2-1.2: string descriptor 0 malformed (err = -61), defaulting to 0x0409, hwstub_shell can't connect and generates no traffic
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23:32:07***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:38:26Catelite...that is freaky
23:38:39Catelitethat moment when I realize the grain in the background of one song was actually revealed by high-quality encoding
23:38:52Catelitebecause it was there from the start, and the low-quality was incidentally masking it somehow
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