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#rockbox log for 2014-10-30

00:02:18 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:02:20foolshcrap, maybe I am dumd, PLA won't work for the fuze+
00:02:30foolshand needs coffee
00:02:34 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:03:08foolshthe fuze+ needs the diagonals like it did for xrick
00:05:04 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
00:05:54foolshup_left down_left up_right down_right
00:06:18 Quit bertrik (Remote host closed the connection)
00:06:23[Franklin]ahh yes
00:06:26foolshfuze+ has a 3x3 grid of "virtual" buttons that you can only press one at a time
00:06:42foolshso no pla
00:06:55[Franklin]no PLA?
00:06:57foolshor extra defines for only the fuze+
00:07:37foolshor expand the PLA library to define them
00:08:27foolshI'll work it out, don't worry about it
00:11:58foolshI think using PLA is a good idea, but I'll define keymapings for the fuze+, it will cut down on the code a bit
00:13:25[Franklin]after input gets worked out... the game won't load!
00:16:51 Join _wodz_ [0] (500bfb4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
00:17:46[Franklin]file_open errors
00:17:51[Franklin]because rb->open returns -1
00:18:40_wodz_pamaury: (log) thats a good news about backlight_c. At least brom adfu is the same on iriver2135 and atj2135. I'll look at the second stage when I get back home from France.
00:23:40[Franklin]gnite all
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05:34:11CateliteMoo :o
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05:50:05n9_so,, turns out a sansa plug will fit an ipod connecter
05:50:27n9_did i just ruin a ipod?
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05:58:08AldemIt fits, but doesn't mean that the pin-out is the same, be very carefull
05:58:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:58:31ikeboyIt won't charge it. Been there, done that
05:59:33AldemI'm just saying that it could fry the hardware
06:00:12AldemNot only talking about the iPod Sansa, but about anything with the same connector format
06:01:21n9_well it seems to connect fine now,, before it wouldnt connect to a computer,, but would charge <using the proper cable> i only had it plugged into a sansa connecter long enough to realize (somthing isnt right here)
06:02:09AldemTry via a USB hub
06:02:28AldemMy iPad can't connect on my laptop unless I use a USB Hub, power issue
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06:23:36Mdx6665hey guys!
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14:25:11swaggothi there, i looked at forums to see if sandisk clip sport is able to run rockbox, but the answers suggest that it is not possible. is this true?
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14:36:09gevaertsswaggot: as far as I understand it there might still be a small chance of it being *possible*, but even then it's not going to be for the next few months
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16:18:18dongsis that new or someting
16:19:38dongs< swaggot> hi there, i looked at forums to see if sandisk clip sport
16:20:20[Franklin]it's a DAP, don't know about new
16:20:46dongslooks like feb 2014
16:21:10[Franklin]then yes
16:21:35[Franklin]from what I've heard, a Rockbox port is pretty unlikely
16:22:23dongsunfortunate, cuz newer hardware = better battery life etc.
16:22:46pamauryfirst off I don't think any rockbox dev has bought it, then it uses undocumented atj chip, it's unclear we know how the recovery mode (if any) works, we are not even sure it has enough RAM to run rockbox
16:23:12*[Franklin] waits for when he has some more time and monety
16:24:12dongswow, step down from BGA to a tqfp thingy
16:24:19dongsclip+ -> sport
16:25:05[Franklin]the Classic is *so* much better :P
16:25:55[Franklin]Expensive, yes
16:26:30[Franklin]but you can get a good deal on ebay
16:26:42dongspamaury: from a quick glance @ company site, yeah i dont think its gonna run rockbox
16:26:46dongslike ~128k ram total
16:27:15pamauryyeah that's what we know
16:27:38gevaertsThe question comes up fairly often, but apparently it's not easy to search for
16:27:46pamaurysome have suggested it must use hardware decoding or a dsp to achieve such low memory usage for the supported codecs
16:28:01dongspamaury: right, some mention of codec rom on there.
16:28:14dongsalso its mips
16:28:20[Franklin]so a separate chip
16:28:20dongssounds like fail overall, nice battery life tho
16:28:39dongsno, dsp/hardware decoder IP on same chip
16:29:02[Franklin]same thing :P\
16:29:39[Franklin]dongs: where'd you see the 128K figure?
16:29:52dongs[Franklin]: totalling up different ram blocks @ manufacturer page
16:30:06[Franklin]what manufacturer page?
16:30:29[Franklin]oh the chip manufacturer
16:31:20[Franklin]yeah... not much use for this
16:31:38[Franklin]but the chip has a lot of stuff built-in
16:33:28[Franklin]I doubt that the CPU does much work at all
16:33:57dongsi bet PCM buffers alone in rockbox are bigger htan 8k
16:34:12dongsk bbl
16:34:27pamaurynot to mention codec code size, and decoding tables
16:34:29[Franklin]this sounds far-fetched.... but is virtual memory possible?
16:35:00[Franklin]the chip has an MMU
16:35:01pamaury[Franklin]: yes of course, but that would be horribly slow
16:35:29pamauryit's what some manufacturers do on the STMP3770 for example and you can see that the result is clearly subpar
16:37:09[Franklin]how fast is the MIPS core in the sport?
16:38:13pamaurypretty fast we guess, at least 100MHz
16:39:57[Franklin]hmm... then perhaps RAM is the only factor preventing a Rockbox port
16:40:26[Franklin]RAM and getting code to run
16:41:01pamauryyeah RAM really sounds like THE issue
16:41:09pamaurywhich is why nobody is really trying
16:41:32*[Franklin] is guessing that there must be some RAM hidden somewhere
16:41:42[Franklin]perhaps the audio chip has its own memory?
16:42:03pamaurythe other day I was discussing with wodz that we have at least three chips with this problem: STMP3770, RKNano, ATJ3127, so many a stripped down version of rockbox would be useful
16:42:15 Quit mortalis (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
16:42:46pamaury[Franklin]: not necessarily, if you display a still picture and have hardware decoding, you can make it work
16:49:08[Franklin]a stripped down rockbox...
16:49:18[Franklin]first to go would be plugins
16:49:23[Franklin]then database
16:49:33pamaurythat would not be enough, far from it
16:49:53[Franklin]how drastic would it need to be?
16:50:51pamauryit's unclear, one would have to try to be sure
16:50:58pamaurybut probably very drastic
16:51:00*[Franklin] likes all the games
16:51:10[Franklin]like how?
16:51:18pamauryif you have hardware decoding, it save a lot of RAM in the first place
16:51:29gevaertsRockbox has basically never fitted in 128K
16:52:01gevaertsI don't know about svn revisions before ± 1000
16:52:04pamaurybut if you don't, you can already drop most of the codecs, forget about all nice audio stuff, playlist and buffering would be kept to a minimum, theme engine is probably a no-go
16:52:15gevaertsBut after that, the Archos Player needed 200K
16:52:55pamaurywith clever virtual memory trick, maybe you could keep many stuff but performance would be limited
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16:54:08pamauryone major issue is the framebuffer: rockbox assumes you can fit the framebuffer in memory, which uses a of lot RAM
16:54:47[Franklin]pamaury: then what's the point of Rockbox?
16:54:47[Franklin]that's just OF with a different name
16:54:47[Franklin]and open-source
16:54:47DBUGEnqueued KICK [Franklin]
16:54:47[Franklin]"clever virtual memory trick"?
16:54:48[Franklin]does this thing have a separate video chip?
16:55:14pamaurythey usually have a lcd with a controller yes
16:55:33[Franklin]and that has onboard framebuffer memory, no?
16:55:47pamauryif you have say 512Kb of RAM, you go for full virtual memory but that's terrible, however you could go for virtual memory on the code only
16:56:30pamauryso you dedicate 256Kb for R/W RAM and 256Kb for RO code and you can fit unlimited code in this amount with swapping
16:56:45pamaurysinbce it's read-only, you don't wear the NAND
16:57:11pamaury[Franklin]: yes, but it's very slow to access, and some can only write it (ie not read it)
16:57:57[Franklin]so a port is possible
16:58:29[Franklin]but certainly not easy
16:58:46pamaurythat's still unclear, because even with this virtual memory trick (which is highly untrivial and requires architecture changes), you are still limited by the amount of R/W RAM rockbox needs
16:59:05pamauryand I think it's >128KB even with the least possible features
16:59:25pamauryprobably >256Kb with framebuffer, or maybe even without
17:00:17pamauryanyway, the first step if for *someone* to have code execution on it ;)
17:00:56CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
17:00:56*[Franklin] might try, who knows
17:03:54 Quit Jinx (Quit: reboot)
17:04:14pamauryand with have a problem with the firmware upgrade image too: our tools cannot descramble it, it uses a different scrambling method than atj213x
17:04:54*[Franklin] will rofl when someone realizes that it's ROT13
17:05:03[Franklin]but that won't happen
17:06:40pamaurygiven what it looked like for atj213x, it would be *highly* surprised it's some trivial scrambling method ;)
17:06:59[Franklin]what did that use?
17:10:51pamaurysome sort of crypto with big integers and xors, looks like crypto based on "xor-algebra"
17:11:20pamaurywhich may be really strong or not, but pointlessly contained the key in some executable so insecure in the end
17:12:57[Franklin]anyway... why is rb->open failing?!
17:13:31[Franklin]the file I'm calling it on is most definitely existent and readable
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17:29:02[Franklin]or... too many files open?
17:36:38[Franklin]yep, that was it
17:36:45[Franklin]it's working!!!
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17:42:49[Franklin]it plays through the whole intro scene without crashing!
17:46:28[Franklin]and then it goes into an infinite loop :(
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17:58:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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18:01:56[Franklin]is there any way PLA can detect multiple keypresses?
18:02:23gevaertsDo you know what PLA is *for*?
18:02:37gevaertsIf you need to do complex things, PLA is not for you
18:02:55[Franklin]I want to detect PLA_UP|PLA_DOWN
18:03:14[Franklin]which can't, and won't work
18:04:32[Franklin]it seems awfully wasteful to use keymaps when all I need to detect are multiple presses, and releases
18:04:49[Franklin]the only keys I need are up, down, left, right, fire, and exit
18:19:39pixelmathere are some targets that can not detect button combos or at least are very restricted there
18:22:18pixelmae.g. the Iaudios can only detect combos with the Power button (so Power + something else) and a long hold of Power is a hard power-off so that possible combo is not very useful at all
18:24:46[Franklin]but that isn't PLA-specific
18:27:49pixelmayou basically wanted to detect up+down - PLA exists to unify button handling where possible (hence it's very basic). It only supports things that are possible on all targets
18:28:10[Franklin]modify it?
18:31:26pixelmaThen it's not PLA anymore. It's there to simplify things in simple circumstances (port plugins that only need the typical basic controls). If you need more then use dedicated button definitions.
18:31:49pixelmaas gevaerts already told you
18:32:18[Franklin]the whole point of porting this was to show that a simple, fun game using PLA was possible
18:32:35[Franklin]well... that didn't happen :)
18:34:50[Franklin]anyway gtg
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19:29:30*gevaerts is surprised to learn that 2048 is not a simple, fun game!
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